Extreme Horror is today's Splatterpunk and this too shall soon pass. A good story well told, regardless of elements in it, will prevail. False genres made to grab market share always fizzle. A genuine genre is identified afterwards, in retrospect, when we realize Oh, look at that pattern. They develop naturally and unconsciously, they’re not planned, they’re not from writers’ groups seeking publicity and sales.
Yes. Now a few genuinely great works came out of the splatterpunk movement. Strangely enough, I don’t see those titles talked about as much when people talk about splatterpunk.
Bullshit, extreme horror has been around since the 1920's & is more popular than ever. One could even say, extreme horror has always been a part of literature. Even children's tales.
@@J0SHUAKANE we’re not talking about extreme horror in its elements. It’s more the dudes that slap “EXTREME HORROR NOVELLA” on their shitty books to make sales.
you've so perfectly stated something I've been looking for the words to express, and I *am* willing to just move into talking shit from there. I need my horror not to be satisfied at finding various forms of obvious shocking violence repulsive, I need a deeper transgression, an interrogation of some social or psychological boundary beyond unreconstructed physical damage and its depiction. I may be basic for this, there must be something there that I'm being too uncharitable to see, but there's this class of story that can be cooked down to a listicle of the gross stuff that happens in it that I just don't want anything to do with anymore.
Well, that’s basically the spirit of this video, so you know I agree-however, I do also enjoy straight-up garbage, but it has to be sincere garbage. I can see the worth in a listicle of gross stuff, for instance, but there has to be SINCERITY behind its execution. Edward Lee feels sincere in his goofy, oddball transgressive set pieces, and that lack of pretense can really do WONDERS for the genre.
I had been wondering why I had been feeling absolutely nothing after trying most splatterpunk. Survivor, Dead Inside, The resurrectionist- all felt like empty violence that I walked away from and never thought of again. Then I picked up Winter In Maine by Gerard Donovan. It's not horror, nor is it extreme, but it filled me with a sense of isolation and put me in the character's heart of revenge so well that I'll sometimes have a flashback of that feeling intertwined with my own anger or loneliness. That book snaked its way into my head and laid eggs there. That's what I want books to do! I want them to affect me so deeply that they become a part of me, or change the way I think in some way. I actually gave up reading thrillers right after this for the same reason - empty book calories! 😉📚 I always appreciate your thoughtful commentary! 🖤🖤🖤
Haha, empty book calories can be very yummy still, though! But I absolutely feel this. I know that extreme horror CAN be good-but there needs to be a balance, and of course, something called “extreme” is not gonna have a lot of that haha. However, as you said here, it’s not so much the content, but the experience one is thrown into, that becomes memorable.
Thank you lol, I feel so gaslight by people recommending these. I have always loved the more "extreme" books, since I was a young teenager I always searched out anything with an extreme or disturbing label. And like you said the experience of reading American Psycho for the first time or Exquisite Corpse was so thrilling and just..well you know, just an important experience in my life. And then people recommend these saying how good they are, the Goodread reviews are all 4-5 star and I'm just like wth not the same😭. I will say this was one of the better ones but still just ok, the end had some good imagery that's about all I got. But most are trash
Thank you for this video, found your channel today through CriminOlly, whom I love! Been watching a few of your videos (liked your take on À rebours) and I appreciate your views on extreme horror. I also really love horror and whilst there's a lot of it, often it's pretty hit or miss. But I did enjoy this book. It wasn't what I'd call extreme horror (honestly found it fairly tame compared to some others) but I enjoyed the plot and found it entertaining and that's enough for me 😊 The writing was also decent, so that's a plus. Thank you again for your videos, looking forward to seeing more. And excited to read Poking holes, which I bought today.
Juan, side note: you are looking so healthy and glowing! I’m so proud of you for so many reasons. You are the reason I picked up reading again, and I appreciate you!
Awww, thank you so much! Yes, I am 120 lbs lighter and been vegan for about a month and a half, and it is the happiest I’ve been in a long time. 🥲 Keep reading those disturbing books! ❤️
When I initially found your channel it was because of your interest in many of the books I read back in high school and you've inspired me to read many more like them. For some reason, I've been gravitating to mostly "junk food" reading by going through more splatterpunk type authors. I feel like this has been my way back into reading again after a long hiatus. I haven't read any newer works of splatterpunk as I'm enjoying mostly what I get from the 80s and 90s. I tend not to be bothered by a lot of the terrible writing, maybe in part because I'm a terrible writer myself. I think it's mostly because I like that escape. I do the same thing with film. One week I might be into more thoughtful, arthouse, philosophical explorations, and the next I need some splattery nonsense. The major difference is I haven't yet found myself back into the more thoughtful categories with my reading yet, although I do feel it coming soon. All that being said, I can understand your lack of enjoyment while reading more splatterpunk types. If I could equate that to any of my own thinking it would probably be my annoyance with the terrible writing in a lot of mid-Hollwood style blockbusters. I can do the trash, and the great writing, but that shit in between has no real flair and is mostly just gimmick to please mass audiences. It's cool that people like it, but it does very little for me. I don't know if that's an apt comparison, but that's the closest thing I can think to relate with your perspective.
I generally agree with your sentiments here, and especially with the fact that there’s a “middle road” between enjoyable garbage and sophisticated art that just feels… forced, feigned, absolutely uninspired. That’s what I detest most-no effort, just boilerplate writing.
I agree with you. The Necrophiliac along with The Girl Next Door by Ketchum and The End of Alice are the best examples of this deeper internal experiential approach that I’ve read of late.
And these are works that I would fully call “extreme” (in the same sense of extremity as French extreme cinema, for instance), yet it even feels derogatory to call them that at this point. 😂
It definitely wouldn’t fall under extreme horrors, but in the “disturbing” category, I can’t get the book “The Only Good Indians” by Stephen Graham Jones out of my head. I’m recommending it to everyone who will listen, even my non-horror reading friends. There’s a scene in it that actually stopped me in my tracks while rereading, which hasn’t happened before. That said, the perspective-based stories that you’ve described a couple of times put me more in mind of the best parts of Iain Banks’ work.
I recently read/listened to riverman (like finished it just last night lol) and I have an appreciation for it despite being probably one of the hardest books ive ever read because despite it being an exploitative splatterpunk book Abby is probably one of the most well developed, humanly protrayed mentally disabled characters i've ever seen in media and its kind of sad that this book, an exploitative splatterpunk book, succeeds in giving her a development and depth that most media will even refuse to try. I'm not as disabled as Abby myself but I feel and share a lot of her insecurities and struggles and it deeply surprised me how well written she is. I also REALLY like the lore and description of the river man, what an awesome character
I would say 90% of the time, extreme horror doesn't work for me and a lot of the time it's because it's just gross for the sake of being gross or it's horrible things happening to horrible people and I find if I don't have someone to root for...I just don't care. I also struggle with the writing...grammar errors and issues with POV structure really pull me out of the story when they happen repeatedly. But...I keep trying books in this subgenre because I have found exceptions that worked really well for me...and when I find those exceptions that makes it all worth it. A couple that come to mind that worked well for me were The Third Parent by Elias Witherow and For the Sake Of by Judith Sonnet. Definitely not books for everyone but these were stories where I felt invested in the outcome, in the characters, and that made all the difference for me.
I feel this. It’s also why I keep reading it. I have found the most atrocious affronts to grammar and syntax imaginable within this vein of writing, but also some incredible gems that are now favorites. I did read The Clown Hunt by Sonnet before, and I found it to be pretty bland and run-of-the-mill murder by the numbers, but also amusing. I’m totally down to try more!
Ah, Mr Visions, once again you are a beacon of light 🙂. I've recently got Gone to See The River Man myself due to having heard similar kinds of things to what you mentioned. It was great to hear your thoughts and once again I appreciate your honesty. It is disappointing when a book - any book - doesn't meet one's anticipation and expectations. But if we simply don't enjoy it, then that's that and there's no point in pretending otherwise. There's got to be a connection, an engagement, that forms between a reader and a book and if that's not there then pah! it's just not happenin'. For me, the most important thing is always the story...or rather the narrative as sometimes, as you said, the "story" is actually about putting yourself into the shoes of a character and experiencing things as they experience them. So: how does this graphic scene serve the story? how does this narrative device move the story forward? I have read and enjoyed some extreme horror but only when I've felt a connection to the characters, I've felt moved - as in emotionally affected in some way - and there's been a deeper sense of meaning that leads to a feeling of satisfaction. Violence, gore, grossness, explicit sexual content etc etc on its own is just empty to me. I just don't see the enjoyment in something like that. I think the most perfect examples of a combination of horror, dread, turmoil, pain, taboo subjects, the dark side of humanity in general, plus great writing, imagery that haunts you, memorable characters and ultimately a reading experience that leaves the reader fundamentally changed are Clive Barker's Books of Blood. There's such a range of horrors in those stories and I've found myself going back to them time and time again over the years. I truly do think they are must-reads for anybody who is interested in horror as there really is something for everyone.
You know, I truly believe violence, transgression, shock, gore-all these allegedly “base” and “exploitative” elements can truly contain incredibly powerful poetics to them, and it’s only a select few (Barker included, of course) who TRULY understand this and are writing today. :(
i had just found your channel yesterday or so, i think was the bighead or something like that video, so today i went to see if you had a review on gone to see the river man, i love horror but cant stand extreme horror or splatterpunk and so on, but i dont know since i read this book synopsis i really want to read it, dunno why really, but i think there is no spanish translation yet and im not confident on my english enough to read books, i dont have any issue with comics or movies, etc, because i guess images help a lot on understanding dialogs. anyways im liking your videos a lot. thank you.
I was just wanting more of the devil house in Gone to See the River Man. That just seemed like a cool moment in the book we could have stayed a little longer.
what is the spelling of the author’s name you keep mentioning next to sotos here? i don’t think i can quite handle sotos at this point but curious about the other person. big congrats on the apoc party by the way :) i found your channel through them, and they are really my path back into transgressive stuff that i haven’t indulged in since stuff like chuck p’s haunted, or angeldust apocalypse, back when i was in like 8th grade. cheers!
oh excuse me, one more thing - speaking of mental illness in books - i am bipolar 1 - do you know of any good transgressive books dealing with mania and the loss of inhibition? i would be very interested. thanks again.
I feel much the same way. It's not that I find extreme horror too shocking or repulsive -- I crave this level of shock and repulsiveness. It's just not executed in a way I find appealing. I think much of that is because it's too often presented without empathy. Though now that you mention it, too much emphasis on plot can be detrimental. I read 'Talia' by Daniel Volpe a few weeks ago. I enjoyed the first 50% of it, because it did make me successfully empathize with the characters. But then the plot really kicked in during the second half of the book and I DNF'd it. Have you read anything by Samantha Kolesnik? I don't know that she can be called an extreme horror writer necessarily, but if horror is viewed as a spectrum then she's further along the path to the extreme than most horror writers are. Her novella 'True Crime' has less emphasis on plot, though it does have a little of that "Dora the Explorer" quality you refer to here. I still ended up somewhat disappointed by it, but I enjoyed it enough to try her next book, which is more than I can say for most extreme horror writers I read. I'm halfway through her second book 'Waif' now and she really nails the empathy angle right from the beginning. That's one thing 'True Crime' also did well, and this book does it even better. I'm hoping I'll end up enjoying this one more than I did 'True Crime.' It's got potential so far.
I thought River Man was disappointing. Misogyny in literature doesn't bother me. They're horrible characters and are not supposed to be pink unicorns. I expected some psychological twist that never happened.
Agreed! I feel like extreme horror authors shield themselves so much in this protective cocoon or “free speech” defenses that they fail to answer any other critical inquiry into their writing, primarily the fact that there is a POETICS behind transgression and violence that they clearly fail to understand.
Love your rambly thoughts! It's always exciting to see you post. I hope you feel better soon! LOL, I'm sorry did you say "extreme Dora the Explorer"? I love that. Not that I'm an experienced Extreme Horror reader; but If anything feels exploitative, I am put off by it. Which I guess is a very fine boundary to toe with extreme horror. I love how you put it as treating it in a dignified way. Exploring the nature of the violence is pretty important for me. Random violence for violence sake just is not cathartic or nice to read and I find no literary value in it.
Yes, it was Dora on her way to deliver the key to El Hombre del Río. Exploitation, I have always said, should be left for the exploited to sort out, not those exploiting. I’ve found exploitation incredibly useful for defining my identity and cultural space in America, but when cis white males keep doing it, it’s like… No.
@@PlaguedbyVisions Firstly I laughed so hard at that. And I agree entirely, how can anyone convey a fear they have never felt? I think that's why I hate Stephen King. It's so detached from reality to me. His writing about insanity is so limited UGH. And don't get me started on his depiction of women. I will stab my eyes out if I read another of his characters saying they are saving themselves for marriage or some other religious saying that is supposed to be the women's role. I mean I don't want to be like "write what you know"; but maybe write what you know? Just @stephenking tho. His book may have saved me from bullying; but I don't have to like him. lol
I haven’t read much extreme horror and I’m sure it’s because I like to sit and simmer for a while. Extreme horror hasn’t offered that opportunity in my limited experience. It’s more of a constant “knocking the reader over the head with shock and gore” situation. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if that’s a person’s taste. I need more depth than extreme horror offers. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts. Your videos offer the depth I crave. 😉
I found Extreme Horror / Splatterpunk doesn't work for me when I looked around for books, I found many I came across in research relied on excessive bloody gore or gross to be gross (The Slob, for example), and as someone who was traumatized during that space in the 2010s where people (and some YA literature) was far too comfortable in giving the graphic and grizzly details of S/H, my tolerance for attempting to read repeated gore scenes at the rate they exist in many of these books would go down so fast I'd be viscerally reacting too much that it'd be bad for my health even with breaks. But then I can read books like Grotesque by Natsuo Kirino (which I think I was 19 when I read it-), where it's hollowing to read and you have to sit and digest everything, leaving you with unexplainable feelings. But there's a story and many things to think about and where there's - no offense to extreme horror - more substance for me to hold onto. These are the kind of books that leave an impact on me as a reader, and I find this is why I like translated works of this variety so much or works from POC authors / authors of different cultures because they stick with me a lot even if I may not have given the book a high rating (Ring by Koji Suzuki, The Only Good Indians by Stephen Graham Jones are examples of books that Stuck with me). And that's the kind of books I want to seek out more instead of gore upon gore. As for disturbing books that I like / recommend - Cursed Bunny by Bora Chung has gone around a lot. It's not that disturbing, really, but is a short story collection that can stick with you for a while. None of the stories are interconnected from what I remember, there's also different elements to them - there's horror, societal commentary, sci-fi. The first one has a sentient poop monster in it. Yes, a poop monster. It's great, I love this story collection so much. I plan to reread it soon.
Thank you so much for the recommendation! And there’s a statement that Jared Sarnie, the illustrator of my book, made that I hope resonates with you and your message: Some people write transgressive fiction to understand transgression, and others just write it to transgress vicariously. I feel mere base engagement with transgressive subject matter can be a useful exercise, but also incredibly repetitive.
You’re not the first to tell me they stopped getting notified. I think UA-cam finally caught on to the horrors we cover here and they don’t like it. 😂 But you’re here now and that’s what matters! ❤
Again…yes! While I haven’t read tons of extreme horror I have read some and I have read Gone to see The River Man and also came away not really liking it. The constant use of sexual violence towards women (by male authors) in a lot of extreme horror is one reason I don’t read a lot of it. I just don’t need to constantly read that you know? I am curious to try extreme horror written by women writers though to see how if it may feel differently for me. Definitely appreciated your thoughts on this.
Wholly agree with this comment, and I think eventually we have to ask: Why are male authors obsessively documenting r*pe and murder fantasies? What is the TRUE purpose of their writing? I feel like many extreme authors shield themselves with “free speech” claims in order to not answer to ANY critical inquiry into their writing.
@fiberartsyreads, you might enjoy a short story collection titled ‘Are You Loathesome Tonight,’ curated by Poppy Z. Brite. It’s rather old but the stories are well written.
Reading extreme horror is kinda like watching a B movie, most of it is shit but sometimes there’s a diamond in the rough. Ordering both new copies of Poking Holes next week, I hope you have some signed ones left!
I maybe stating the obvious here but any type of extreme needs a normal to contrast against. Whether the author relies on us comparing the narrative to our own reality or lines it out. I prefer the latter and I do think that's why literary fiction often generates more impact. It is calculating as to when to step outside the expected and generates more momentum while it does.
I agree with this, but I also have enjoyed books where the weight of reality is completely lifted and we just get senseless violence. However, even then I feel, the absence of reality can only be fully felt through a masterful author who understands the substance of that reality in the first place.
In what way exactly does GtstRM try to be extreme? I think it's just supposed to be a fun short horror read. And when it comes to extreme horror, most of it is for fun and not for philosophy, so I personally refrain from expecting anything more from it. Obviously it's fine if it's not to ones liking.
The constant exploration/exploitation of taboo subjects and the relishing of violent details are staple extreme horror qualities I found in River Man. “Most of it is for fun not for philosophy” Says who? Where’s the rule book that says certain types of literature cannot be subjected to close readings through philosophical/critical lenses? I always push against that on my channel, of course. It does seem to set me apart from most horror reviewers.
@@PlaguedbyVisions thank you for your reply. I was just wondering, exploitation of taboo subjects, yes, GtstRM exploits taboo subjects, but it is not doing so in an extreme fashion ... when compared to other works of extreme horror (Ed Lee or even novels by Kristopher Triana (e.g. Toxic Love, Body Art, or the phenomenal Full Brutal). Hence I was wondering why you chose GtsRM as the example for extreme horror. And you're absolutely right. All sort of written document can be subject to philosophical (to actually any kind of) interpretation. And I wouldn't have commented if I wouldn't have enjoyed your discussion on the matter. In the end I am coming from being very fond of Kritopher Triana, and I thought it is kinda unfair to compare said novel with fiction that attempts to play in a different league (I'm German and I couldn't find any better way to express this). However, there's still nothing wrong in doing so :-)
Yeah I don't really jive with extreme horror so much. So often I just find it immature, a genre that would-be writers flock to when they want to get attention in the most base way. Jack Ketchum's books usually had at least a little subtext to them, as do Brett Easton Ellis's books, Richard Laymon was godawful but knew it, so there was at least a tiny "meta" quality that made it feel like he was laughing along with the reader. A book can be violent and nasty, so long as it has a point, but a lot of those "extreme" books really don't. I liked your breakdown on why this type of writing doesn't do anything for you. :)
You know what I note as the main difference between the good authors you mentioned and the general extreme horror hole? The good authors you mentioned know when to pull back-they know when to contrast violence with tranquility, shock with humor. Awful extreme horror tends to be unrelenting to the point of being tedious.
The thing is that for me, I rather read something that's extreme in theme than in execution. I like disturbing books, but gore doesn't excite me that much. I don't mind reading extreme or splatterpunk as long as the books still have interesting plots like The Sluts or The Light at the End. But gore for gore's sake is just boring.
I understand your position. I don’t mind “gore for gore’s sake,” but what I find is that a lot of horror artists don’t understand that “gore for gore’s sake” is its own form of artistry that also requires a certain level of sophistication.
I feel like, after certain lines are crossed, all the horror blends together. It leaves you like “oh is there going to be more atrocities on the next page? Yep, more atrocities. What a twist”
I didn't know there was a genre for *extreme* horror! I'll have to look into it more, I can't quite tell from your description if the content is just depraved or there's absurd amounts of gore?.. Where does the line get drawn, is it mostly how it's received by audiences?
It is both! It is usually sexually depraved characters committing extreme/extremely detailed violence. And how “extreme horror” is defined is actually one of my bigger qualms with it. Authors are usually the ones that call their books “extreme,” which to me is… dumb.
@@PlaguedbyVisions Thanks for the quick rundown! Hearing you say it, it felt like a bit of a marketing tag. I guess you can't define extreme horror or it wouldn't be all that extreme lol I'm excited to read some, maybe this one, and see where I fall on how much I like it because much like you, extreme horror "should" be something I'm into but if it lacks structures needed to just be a good story, I might get miffed :P
I think what makes extreme or transgressive fiction for me is whether or not the excess feels thematically and/or genuinely emotionally potent beyond simply being grotesque or shocking. Recently I have been making my way through two fairly graphic and often nauseating works of fiction, both highly compelling, in entirely different mediums. One is the novel The Marbled Swarm by Dennis Cooper, the absolutely fuliginous comedy of which is part and parcel to its spots of horrid grisliness in conveying its themes of communication and the thin line between subject and object; the titular evasive, elliptical way of speaking which defines the narration is both hilarious and sincerely horrific in its implementation, both in what our distressingly glib incestuous cannibal narrator chooses to highlight and what he chooses to omit or merely imply. The other is the second season of the animated series Made in Abyss, subtitled The Golden City of the Scorching Sun, a New Weird-adjacent fantasy which is legitimately one of the most emotionally scouring things that I have ever watched; essentially a five-hour exploration of grief, desire, value, the justification of violence and abuse, and the liminal nature of embodiment, it is alternately devastatingly beautiful and completely disgusting, quite often at the exact same time. Neither one of these is something I can recommend to most people-I'm difficult to gross out, I have a pretty morbid sense of humour, and I like being disturbed and deeply saddened by art-but each touches on a place where I think extremity "works," for a lack of a better way of putting it. P.S. I missed this one when it came out but clicked straight away when I saw Guyotat's Tomb for 500,000 Soldiers in the thumbnail. I really wish more people in these spheres were aware of his work…
Thank you so much for such a wonderfully detailed examination of what turns transgression and violence from base entertainment into an actual system of poetics. I, too, feel like the most resonant works of this kind are the ones that seriously (or perhaps even non-seriously, but in a truly committed way) engage with the rot they are showcasing, digging their fingers where others just gingerly point to shock and gore.
Edward Lee, Kristopher Triana, Jon Athan, Wade Garrett. My problem with these authors isn't the objectionable content. The reason I checked these authors out was specifically for objectionable content. My problem with them is that they are just terrible writers. Painfully bad writers. It's that simple. They write books for adults written at the reading level of children that could only be enjoyed by a small handful of edgelord teens. Triana was close with Gone to See the River Man and Full Brutal. The dude has some decent story ideas. All the authors I mentioned have decent story ideas (except Wade Garrett. He's pathetic beyond what I'm willing to write here.). They just either won't take the time or simply don't have the ability to flesh those ideas out. I would like to send some recognition to Aron Beauragard for the Slob and Son of Slob. On the standard scale I'd probably give them 2 stars out of 5 but on the extreme horror sliding scale they are masterworks. I hate Wade Garrett.
And you know what I’ve realized? It’s BECAUSE I see the boundless potential in extreme horror that I’m so critical of them. I WANT OUR SIDE TO DO BETTER! 😂😂😂
Same. One of the only extreme horror titles I've enjoyed was The Mud Ballad, which reaches this balance of disturbing tragedy and black comedy to such perfection that the two extremes compliment each other. I mean, it's about Carnies performing necromancy on a parasitic twin. That's so wrong and gross that it becomes hilarious.
I actually do love it when the extreme spills into the laughable. It’s the reason I liked Edward Lee. However, not anyone can achieve that charm, and sadly, I feel like most extreme horror authors today wanna be Ed Lee so bad lol.
Because you need good motivation to be terrified by extreme horror. Modern horror does not terrify most people, because it is advertised as being extreme but lacks good or convincing or realistic motivation.
@@PlaguedbyVisions No problem. The motivation example is a way to explain why modern culture needs that for people to be terrified by extreme horror. And so, modern horror does not terrify most people. Its advertised, marketed as being extreme this, extreme that, and then these people go take it and run with it - meanwhile, actual horror, really good horror is missed by these people, who are more used to cheap entertainment with crappy CGI. Real extreme horror is thus rare, has good practical effects, some CGI, and occasionally none at all.
That’s somewhat true! But I think it’s generally the attitude towards transgression that makes it or breaks it for me. Transgression for the purpose to only shock and vicariously practice abuse through writing does nothing for me.
I have liked some extreme horror (wrath James white, some anthologies) and while some stories have made an impact (like porno for pyros had some stories with some impact) I have found the truly disturbing stories to be more subtle. I can read quite a bit of extreme horror for entertainment (rather than substance) because it isn't that disturbing for me, but if you put something in front of me that truly explores the darker aspects of human psychology (Joyce carol oates comes to mind) I will lose sleep over it.
I liked WJW too! And I think that’s the key difference maybe. WJW knows what he needs to do and does it. I find extreme horror often fails for me because it’s confused, redundant, uninspired, badly written, etc. Definitely not the content but the presentation.
For me a lot of the extreme/splatterpunk books are like the 'popcorn horror' of literature. Some people want to watch 'A Serbian Film (2010)' and some people watch 'Happiness (1998)... I do hope that some of the shittier new wave extreme horror books (The Slob, Woom, Dead Inside etc) do act like a gateway for people to discover Batialle, Artaud, R-Murakami and so on 🤞. But at the same time if some people take a look and don't vibe with them, and are happy with their popcorn, then all the best to them!
I love reading transgressive fiction, gothic and stuff that gives insight into social structures and special minds. But I don't like reading Horror, because I get disgusted by it and I don't like the approach to just shock the audience by extreme images of violence and gore. I like reading about violence, but it needs to have meaning and not just be violence for blood spilling purpose only. I hope I could explain myself somehow understandable. ^^°
I don't think you're being pretentious. If the literature is good, it's good; but if it's so-so... And I get literature can be subjective, but there are some objective mechanisms with which we can judge literature and give an honest assessment of it.
Extreme horror can be done well. The problem is that most of them are not done well. They’re garbage. Flagrant cash grabs aimed at an audience that can’t even explain why they like the stuff. “It KePt Me TuRnInG tHe PaGe!!” Of course it did. It’s called morbid curiosity. And morbid curiosity sells books. Period. I conducted a similar experiment asking a group of people to give me the best most well written examples of extreme horror fiction. What I got instead was a bunch of flavor of the week titles. Cows was on that list for Pete’s sake… And another thing. Extreme violence and gore in books? Ok. But understand that it’s a short jump from disturbing to comical. Go to far with unbelievable, unrealistic violence and you have comedy.
You know, I think this really nails why some people respond so positively to some of these books-we all have that morbid curiosity driving our reading, but some people have whetted their appetites much less, lmao, hence a more visceral response to mediocre writing.
I can't even deal with Bentley Little's books, what am I doing here? 🤣 Joking aside though, I agree. There's a big difference between exploring extreme subject matter and being edgy to be edgy.
@@PlaguedbyVisions You're not missing much. Most of his books are the same plot/character types, he just changes the setting; and his gory scenes tend to be just gross/cringe (I think he's trying to be funny but for me it doesn't land).
River Man comes off as camp. Even low camp. Self Deletion Stockholm Syndrome? Wow I am so disturbed. Also, I think the critiques of racism and extreme misogyny of this book are valid. Junior Kimbrough has a lot more songs than You Better Run, bro.
First time comment but I have watched many of your videos. I appreciate what you post and admire your acumen. I think what may be happening is that you are drawn to the theory or philosophy of transgression and not so much transgression to serve a plot, or gain eyeballs. I'm going to ramble for a moment. Are you familiar with Rudolf Otto and his work The Idea of the Holy? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Otto He's the theologian who coined the term Mysterium Tremendum. When he discusses that moment of fear and trembling we experience in the presence of the sublime I think this is where you find yourself whilst in the presence of the Transgressive. Works which walk with you up to the liminal boundary and take you across with a near religious escstasy. "Lower" or more mundane works which serve cheap thrills cannot satisfy this experience for you. It is easy to see the intent of the writer.
First off, I love this incredible comment. Second, I think you are absolutely right, and definitely, though Otto, Burke, Bataille, Kristeva, etc. have all articulated these various moments of meaning we draw when having a recognizance with the horrors (the holy, the sublime, the deviant, the abject, etc.), I really don’t think it’s an experience that necessitates philosophical insight. The reason these philosophical insights exist in the first place is because they are universal. I think “lower” works can most definitely still achieve this (Ketchum is my favorite for a reason), but they just need an author at the helm who understands what the function of horror is, not just its reactionary power.
Extreme Horror is today's Splatterpunk and this too shall soon pass. A good story well told, regardless of elements in it, will prevail. False genres made to grab market share always fizzle. A genuine genre is identified afterwards, in retrospect, when we realize Oh, look at that pattern. They develop naturally and unconsciously, they’re not planned, they’re not from writers’ groups seeking publicity and sales.
Pinned comment for saying some real ass shit.
Yes. Now a few genuinely great works came out of the splatterpunk movement. Strangely enough, I don’t see those titles talked about as much when people talk about splatterpunk.
Bullshit, extreme horror has been around since the 1920's & is more popular than ever. One could even say, extreme horror has always been a part of literature. Even children's tales.
@@J0SHUAKANE we’re not talking about extreme horror in its elements. It’s more the dudes that slap “EXTREME HORROR NOVELLA” on their shitty books to make sales.
@@PlaguedbyVisions little louder, for the edge lords in the back.
Thanks
OMFG thank you so much 🥺🥺🥺
you've so perfectly stated something I've been looking for the words to express, and I *am* willing to just move into talking shit from there. I need my horror not to be satisfied at finding various forms of obvious shocking violence repulsive, I need a deeper transgression, an interrogation of some social or psychological boundary beyond unreconstructed physical damage and its depiction.
I may be basic for this, there must be something there that I'm being too uncharitable to see, but there's this class of story that can be cooked down to a listicle of the gross stuff that happens in it that I just don't want anything to do with anymore.
Well, that’s basically the spirit of this video, so you know I agree-however, I do also enjoy straight-up garbage, but it has to be sincere garbage. I can see the worth in a listicle of gross stuff, for instance, but there has to be SINCERITY behind its execution. Edward Lee feels sincere in his goofy, oddball transgressive set pieces, and that lack of pretense can really do WONDERS for the genre.
I had been wondering why I had been feeling absolutely nothing after trying most splatterpunk. Survivor, Dead Inside, The resurrectionist- all felt like empty violence that I walked away from and never thought of again. Then I picked up Winter In Maine by Gerard Donovan. It's not horror, nor is it extreme, but it filled me with a sense of isolation and put me in the character's heart of revenge so well that I'll sometimes have a flashback of that feeling intertwined with my own anger or loneliness. That book snaked its way into my head and laid eggs there. That's what I want books to do! I want them to affect me so deeply that they become a part of me, or change the way I think in some way. I actually gave up reading thrillers right after this for the same reason - empty book calories! 😉📚
I always appreciate your thoughtful commentary! 🖤🖤🖤
Haha, empty book calories can be very yummy still, though! But I absolutely feel this. I know that extreme horror CAN be good-but there needs to be a balance, and of course, something called “extreme” is not gonna have a lot of that haha. However, as you said here, it’s not so much the content, but the experience one is thrown into, that becomes memorable.
Thank you lol, I feel so gaslight by people recommending these. I have always loved the more "extreme" books, since I was a young teenager I always searched out anything with an extreme or disturbing label. And like you said the experience of reading American Psycho for the first time or Exquisite Corpse was so thrilling and just..well you know, just an important experience in my life. And then people recommend these saying how good they are, the Goodread reviews are all 4-5 star and I'm just like wth not the same😭. I will say this was one of the better ones but still just ok, the end had some good imagery that's about all I got. But most are trash
YES! That’d the word! The world of extreme horror makes me feel gaslighted as hell. 😂😂😂 Thank you!
Thank you for this video, found your channel today through CriminOlly, whom I love!
Been watching a few of your videos (liked your take on À rebours) and I appreciate your views on extreme horror. I also really love horror and whilst there's a lot of it, often it's pretty hit or miss. But I did enjoy this book. It wasn't what I'd call extreme horror (honestly found it fairly tame compared to some others) but I enjoyed the plot and found it entertaining and that's enough for me 😊 The writing was also decent, so that's a plus.
Thank you again for your videos, looking forward to seeing more. And excited to read Poking holes, which I bought today.
Thank you so much for watching and for supporting my writing!!! 💖💖💖
Juan, side note: you are looking so healthy and glowing! I’m so proud of you for so many reasons. You are the reason I picked up reading again, and I appreciate you!
Awww, thank you so much! Yes, I am 120 lbs lighter and been vegan for about a month and a half, and it is the happiest I’ve been in a long time. 🥲 Keep reading those disturbing books! ❤️
@@PlaguedbyVisions I am so happy for you Juan! Keep up with being the happiest and healthiest you! We love to see it! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
When I initially found your channel it was because of your interest in many of the books I read back in high school and you've inspired me to read many more like them.
For some reason, I've been gravitating to mostly "junk food" reading by going through more splatterpunk type authors. I feel like this has been my way back into reading again after a long hiatus. I haven't read any newer works of splatterpunk as I'm enjoying mostly what I get from the 80s and 90s. I tend not to be bothered by a lot of the terrible writing, maybe in part because I'm a terrible writer myself. I think it's mostly because I like that escape. I do the same thing with film. One week I might be into more thoughtful, arthouse, philosophical explorations, and the next I need some splattery nonsense.
The major difference is I haven't yet found myself back into the more thoughtful categories with my reading yet, although I do feel it coming soon.
All that being said, I can understand your lack of enjoyment while reading more splatterpunk types. If I could equate that to any of my own thinking it would probably be my annoyance with the terrible writing in a lot of mid-Hollwood style blockbusters. I can do the trash, and the great writing, but that shit in between has no real flair and is mostly just gimmick to please mass audiences. It's cool that people like it, but it does very little for me. I don't know if that's an apt comparison, but that's the closest thing I can think to relate with your perspective.
I generally agree with your sentiments here, and especially with the fact that there’s a “middle road” between enjoyable garbage and sophisticated art that just feels… forced, feigned, absolutely uninspired. That’s what I detest most-no effort, just boilerplate writing.
You strike me as a very kind, thoughtful and sensitive person. I'm happy to have stumbled upon your channel. I found it through Bookpilled.
Bookpilled is king! Thank you so much for stumbling into my little channel. I don’t know how well you’ve described me 😅 but I’m honored!
I agree with you. The Necrophiliac along with The Girl Next Door by Ketchum and The End of Alice are the best examples of this deeper internal experiential approach that I’ve read of late.
And these are works that I would fully call “extreme” (in the same sense of extremity as French extreme cinema, for instance), yet it even feels derogatory to call them that at this point. 😂
The end of Alice messed me up
It definitely wouldn’t fall under extreme horrors, but in the “disturbing” category, I can’t get the book “The Only Good Indians” by Stephen Graham Jones out of my head. I’m recommending it to everyone who will listen, even my non-horror reading friends.
There’s a scene in it that actually stopped me in my tracks while rereading, which hasn’t happened before.
That said, the perspective-based stories that you’ve described a couple of times put me more in mind of the best parts of Iain Banks’ work.
I recently read/listened to riverman (like finished it just last night lol) and I have an appreciation for it despite being probably one of the hardest books ive ever read because despite it being an exploitative splatterpunk book Abby is probably one of the most well developed, humanly protrayed mentally disabled characters i've ever seen in media and its kind of sad that this book, an exploitative splatterpunk book, succeeds in giving her a development and depth that most media will even refuse to try. I'm not as disabled as Abby myself but I feel and share a lot of her insecurities and struggles and it deeply surprised me how well written she is.
I also REALLY like the lore and description of the river man, what an awesome character
All is subjective! I think it’s just that I’ve seen the book’s sensibilities and topics handled much more competently in other works.
"The grace period of defining your limits has long flown for me". Genius.
Hahaha, sometimes I fart out a witty turn of phrase here and there.
I would say 90% of the time, extreme horror doesn't work for me and a lot of the time it's because it's just gross for the sake of being gross or it's horrible things happening to horrible people and I find if I don't have someone to root for...I just don't care. I also struggle with the writing...grammar errors and issues with POV structure really pull me out of the story when they happen repeatedly.
But...I keep trying books in this subgenre because I have found exceptions that worked really well for me...and when I find those exceptions that makes it all worth it. A couple that come to mind that worked well for me were The Third Parent by Elias Witherow and For the Sake Of by Judith Sonnet. Definitely not books for everyone but these were stories where I felt invested in the outcome, in the characters, and that made all the difference for me.
I feel this. It’s also why I keep reading it. I have found the most atrocious affronts to grammar and syntax imaginable within this vein of writing, but also some incredible gems that are now favorites. I did read The Clown Hunt by Sonnet before, and I found it to be pretty bland and run-of-the-mill murder by the numbers, but also amusing. I’m totally down to try more!
Random but I found your channel sometime last year and then couldn't find you again. I'm so glad you popped back up! I love your channel!
Welcome back home. ❤️❤️❤️
Ah, Mr Visions, once again you are a beacon of light 🙂. I've recently got Gone to See The River Man myself due to having heard similar kinds of things to what you mentioned. It was great to hear your thoughts and once again I appreciate your honesty. It is disappointing when a book - any book - doesn't meet one's anticipation and expectations. But if we simply don't enjoy it, then that's that and there's no point in pretending otherwise. There's got to be a connection, an engagement, that forms between a reader and a book and if that's not there then pah! it's just not happenin'.
For me, the most important thing is always the story...or rather the narrative as sometimes, as you said, the "story" is actually about putting yourself into the shoes of a character and experiencing things as they experience them. So: how does this graphic scene serve the story? how does this narrative device move the story forward? I have read and enjoyed some extreme horror but only when I've felt a connection to the characters, I've felt moved - as in emotionally affected in some way - and there's been a deeper sense of meaning that leads to a feeling of satisfaction. Violence, gore, grossness, explicit sexual content etc etc on its own is just empty to me. I just don't see the enjoyment in something like that.
I think the most perfect examples of a combination of horror, dread, turmoil, pain, taboo subjects, the dark side of humanity in general, plus great writing, imagery that haunts you, memorable characters and ultimately a reading experience that leaves the reader fundamentally changed are Clive Barker's Books of Blood. There's such a range of horrors in those stories and I've found myself going back to them time and time again over the years. I truly do think they are must-reads for anybody who is interested in horror as there really is something for everyone.
You know, I truly believe violence, transgression, shock, gore-all these allegedly “base” and “exploitative” elements can truly contain incredibly powerful poetics to them, and it’s only a select few (Barker included, of course) who TRULY understand this and are writing today. :(
i had just found your channel yesterday or so, i think was the bighead or something like that video, so today i went to see if you had a review on gone to see the river man, i love horror but cant stand extreme horror or splatterpunk and so on, but i dont know since i read this book synopsis i really want to read it, dunno why really, but i think there is no spanish translation yet and im not confident on my english enough to read books, i dont have any issue with comics or movies, etc, because i guess images help a lot on understanding dialogs. anyways im liking your videos a lot. thank you.
I think the book was translated recently! And thank you!!!
I was just wanting more of the devil house in Gone to See the River Man. That just seemed like a cool moment in the book we could have stayed a little longer.
I wanted more inventiveness from it as well!
what is the spelling of the author’s name you keep mentioning next to sotos here? i don’t think i can quite handle sotos at this point but curious about the other person. big congrats on the apoc party by the way :) i found your channel through them, and they are really my path back into transgressive stuff that i haven’t indulged in since stuff like chuck p’s haunted, or angeldust apocalypse, back when i was in like 8th grade. cheers!
oh excuse me, one more thing - speaking of mental illness in books - i am bipolar 1 - do you know of any good transgressive books dealing with mania and the loss of inhibition? i would be very interested. thanks again.
The author is Pierre Guyotat, and I’d recommend Come Closer by Sara Gran and The Blind Owl by Sadegh Hedayat!
You may have been feeling sick, but you are looking fantastic! Keep up the amazing content! 😃
Awww, thank you so much, my friend! ❤️
I am fascinated that you can stomach this level of horror. I literally get physically ill just from stories about horrible, HORRIBLE people. 😂
Trauma helps a lot, I think.
I can’t tell if it was meant to be a joke but you praising Gone to See the River Man for the simple fact that it has competent grammar killed me. 😭😭😭
Triana is truly trailblazing grammatically correct extreme horror.
Hahaha, he has brought up this point several times
I feel much the same way. It's not that I find extreme horror too shocking or repulsive -- I crave this level of shock and repulsiveness. It's just not executed in a way I find appealing. I think much of that is because it's too often presented without empathy. Though now that you mention it, too much emphasis on plot can be detrimental. I read 'Talia' by Daniel Volpe a few weeks ago. I enjoyed the first 50% of it, because it did make me successfully empathize with the characters. But then the plot really kicked in during the second half of the book and I DNF'd it.
Have you read anything by Samantha Kolesnik? I don't know that she can be called an extreme horror writer necessarily, but if horror is viewed as a spectrum then she's further along the path to the extreme than most horror writers are. Her novella 'True Crime' has less emphasis on plot, though it does have a little of that "Dora the Explorer" quality you refer to here. I still ended up somewhat disappointed by it, but I enjoyed it enough to try her next book, which is more than I can say for most extreme horror writers I read.
I'm halfway through her second book 'Waif' now and she really nails the empathy angle right from the beginning. That's one thing 'True Crime' also did well, and this book does it even better. I'm hoping I'll end up enjoying this one more than I did 'True Crime.' It's got potential so far.
I thought River Man was disappointing. Misogyny in literature doesn't bother me. They're horrible characters and are not supposed to be pink unicorns. I expected some psychological twist that never happened.
Agreed! I feel like extreme horror authors shield themselves so much in this protective cocoon or “free speech” defenses that they fail to answer any other critical inquiry into their writing, primarily the fact that there is a POETICS behind transgression and violence that they clearly fail to understand.
Love your rambly thoughts! It's always exciting to see you post. I hope you feel better soon! LOL, I'm sorry did you say "extreme Dora the Explorer"? I love that. Not that I'm an experienced Extreme Horror reader; but If anything feels exploitative, I am put off by it. Which I guess is a very fine boundary to toe with extreme horror. I love how you put it as treating it in a dignified way. Exploring the nature of the violence is pretty important for me. Random violence for violence sake just is not cathartic or nice to read and I find no literary value in it.
Yes, it was Dora on her way to deliver the key to El Hombre del Río.
Exploitation, I have always said, should be left for the exploited to sort out, not those exploiting. I’ve found exploitation incredibly useful for defining my identity and cultural space in America, but when cis white males keep doing it, it’s like… No.
@@PlaguedbyVisions Firstly I laughed so hard at that. And I agree entirely, how can anyone convey a fear they have never felt? I think that's why I hate Stephen King. It's so detached from reality to me. His writing about insanity is so limited UGH. And don't get me started on his depiction of women. I will stab my eyes out if I read another of his characters saying they are saving themselves for marriage or some other religious saying that is supposed to be the women's role. I mean I don't want to be like "write what you know"; but maybe write what you know? Just @stephenking tho. His book may have saved me from bullying; but I don't have to like him. lol
@@PlaguedbyVisions Sorry for the rambling 😆
I haven’t read much extreme horror and I’m sure it’s because I like to sit and simmer for a while. Extreme horror hasn’t offered that opportunity in my limited experience. It’s more of a constant “knocking the reader over the head with shock and gore” situation. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, if that’s a person’s taste. I need more depth than extreme horror offers.
I enjoyed hearing your thoughts. Your videos offer the depth I crave. 😉
Completely agreed! To each their own. 🖤
I found Extreme Horror / Splatterpunk doesn't work for me when I looked around for books, I found many I came across in research relied on excessive bloody gore or gross to be gross (The Slob, for example), and as someone who was traumatized during that space in the 2010s where people (and some YA literature) was far too comfortable in giving the graphic and grizzly details of S/H, my tolerance for attempting to read repeated gore scenes at the rate they exist in many of these books would go down so fast I'd be viscerally reacting too much that it'd be bad for my health even with breaks.
But then I can read books like Grotesque by Natsuo Kirino (which I think I was 19 when I read it-), where it's hollowing to read and you have to sit and digest everything, leaving you with unexplainable feelings. But there's a story and many things to think about and where there's - no offense to extreme horror - more substance for me to hold onto. These are the kind of books that leave an impact on me as a reader, and I find this is why I like translated works of this variety so much or works from POC authors / authors of different cultures because they stick with me a lot even if I may not have given the book a high rating (Ring by Koji Suzuki, The Only Good Indians by Stephen Graham Jones are examples of books that Stuck with me). And that's the kind of books I want to seek out more instead of gore upon gore.
As for disturbing books that I like / recommend - Cursed Bunny by Bora Chung has gone around a lot. It's not that disturbing, really, but is a short story collection that can stick with you for a while. None of the stories are interconnected from what I remember, there's also different elements to them - there's horror, societal commentary, sci-fi. The first one has a sentient poop monster in it. Yes, a poop monster. It's great, I love this story collection so much. I plan to reread it soon.
Thank you so much for the recommendation! And there’s a statement that Jared Sarnie, the illustrator of my book, made that I hope resonates with you and your message: Some people write transgressive fiction to understand transgression, and others just write it to transgress vicariously. I feel mere base engagement with transgressive subject matter can be a useful exercise, but also incredibly repetitive.
I missed you! I wasn't getting notifications from you for many months!
You’re not the first to tell me they stopped getting notified. I think UA-cam finally caught on to the horrors we cover here and they don’t like it. 😂 But you’re here now and that’s what matters! ❤
@@PlaguedbyVisions ❤
Again…yes! While I haven’t read tons of extreme horror I have read some and I have read Gone to see The River Man and also came away not really liking it. The constant use of sexual violence towards women (by male authors) in a lot of extreme horror is one reason I don’t read a lot of it. I just don’t need to constantly read that you know? I am curious to try extreme horror written by women writers though to see how if it may feel differently for me. Definitely appreciated your thoughts on this.
Wholly agree with this comment, and I think eventually we have to ask: Why are male authors obsessively documenting r*pe and murder fantasies? What is the TRUE purpose of their writing? I feel like many extreme authors shield themselves with “free speech” claims in order to not answer to ANY critical inquiry into their writing.
@fiberartsyreads, you might enjoy a short story collection titled ‘Are You Loathesome Tonight,’ curated by Poppy Z. Brite. It’s rather old but the stories are well written.
@@ccreel64 i have that but haven’t read it yet. Actually reading Lost Souls now and really enjoying it. Big fan of Poppy Z Brite.
@@fiberartsyreads me too!
Buena remera de Héroes del Silencio!!
Justo en el trabajo escuchaba “Rueda Fortuna” 😎
Reading extreme horror is kinda like watching a B movie, most of it is shit but sometimes there’s a diamond in the rough.
Ordering both new copies of Poking Holes next week, I hope you have some signed ones left!
Absolutely agreed! I do not regret the gems I have found perusing this genre haha.
I maybe stating the obvious here but any type of extreme needs a normal to contrast against. Whether the author relies on us comparing the narrative to our own reality or lines it out. I prefer the latter and I do think that's why literary fiction often generates more impact. It is calculating as to when to step outside the expected and generates more momentum while it does.
I agree with this, but I also have enjoyed books where the weight of reality is completely lifted and we just get senseless violence. However, even then I feel, the absence of reality can only be fully felt through a masterful author who understands the substance of that reality in the first place.
@@PlaguedbyVisions You put it wonderfully, couldn't have said it better.
In what way exactly does GtstRM try to be extreme? I think it's just supposed to be a fun short horror read. And when it comes to extreme horror, most of it is for fun and not for philosophy, so I personally refrain from expecting anything more from it. Obviously it's fine if it's not to ones liking.
The constant exploration/exploitation of taboo subjects and the relishing of violent details are staple extreme horror qualities I found in River Man.
“Most of it is for fun not for philosophy” Says who? Where’s the rule book that says certain types of literature cannot be subjected to close readings through philosophical/critical lenses? I always push against that on my channel, of course. It does seem to set me apart from most horror reviewers.
@@PlaguedbyVisions thank you for your reply. I was just wondering, exploitation of taboo subjects, yes, GtstRM exploits taboo subjects, but it is not doing so in an extreme fashion ... when compared to other works of extreme horror (Ed Lee or even novels by Kristopher Triana (e.g. Toxic Love, Body Art, or the phenomenal Full Brutal). Hence I was wondering why you chose GtsRM as the example for extreme horror. And you're absolutely right. All sort of written document can be subject to philosophical (to actually any kind of) interpretation. And I wouldn't have commented if I wouldn't have enjoyed your discussion on the matter. In the end I am coming from being very fond of Kritopher Triana, and I thought it is kinda unfair to compare said novel with fiction that attempts to play in a different league (I'm German and I couldn't find any better way to express this). However, there's still nothing wrong in doing so :-)
I don't have like any super intelligent comment to add to this discourse but I did enjoy this video!
That’s more than enough. ❤️❤️❤️
Yeah I don't really jive with extreme horror so much. So often I just find it immature, a genre that would-be writers flock to when they want to get attention in the most base way. Jack Ketchum's books usually had at least a little subtext to them, as do Brett Easton Ellis's books, Richard Laymon was godawful but knew it, so there was at least a tiny "meta" quality that made it feel like he was laughing along with the reader. A book can be violent and nasty, so long as it has a point, but a lot of those "extreme" books really don't. I liked your breakdown on why this type of writing doesn't do anything for you. :)
You know what I note as the main difference between the good authors you mentioned and the general extreme horror hole? The good authors you mentioned know when to pull back-they know when to contrast violence with tranquility, shock with humor. Awful extreme horror tends to be unrelenting to the point of being tedious.
The thing is that for me, I rather read something that's extreme in theme than in execution. I like disturbing books, but gore doesn't excite me that much. I don't mind reading extreme or splatterpunk as long as the books still have interesting plots like The Sluts or The Light at the End. But gore for gore's sake is just boring.
I really like this comment 👍. If you haven’t read this symbiotic fascination yet - it is AMAZING 😮
I understand your position. I don’t mind “gore for gore’s sake,” but what I find is that a lot of horror artists don’t understand that “gore for gore’s sake” is its own form of artistry that also requires a certain level of sophistication.
I feel like, after certain lines are crossed, all the horror blends together. It leaves you like “oh is there going to be more atrocities on the next page? Yep, more atrocities. What a twist”
But a truly masterful author of the macabre will have you believing that the worst is about to happen!
Who are the authors you mentioned alongside Peter Sotos?
same question here!
somthing like "yota"?
Pierre Guyotat and Gabrielle Wittkop!
@@PlaguedbyVisions thx!
@@PlaguedbyVisions Thank you!
I didn't know there was a genre for *extreme* horror! I'll have to look into it more, I can't quite tell from your description if the content is just depraved or there's absurd amounts of gore?..
Where does the line get drawn, is it mostly how it's received by audiences?
It is both! It is usually sexually depraved characters committing extreme/extremely detailed violence.
And how “extreme horror” is defined is actually one of my bigger qualms with it. Authors are usually the ones that call their books “extreme,” which to me is… dumb.
@@PlaguedbyVisions Thanks for the quick rundown! Hearing you say it, it felt like a bit of a marketing tag. I guess you can't define extreme horror or it wouldn't be all that extreme lol
I'm excited to read some, maybe this one, and see where I fall on how much I like it because much like you, extreme horror "should" be something I'm into but if it lacks structures needed to just be a good story, I might get miffed :P
I think what makes extreme or transgressive fiction for me is whether or not the excess feels thematically and/or genuinely emotionally potent beyond simply being grotesque or shocking. Recently I have been making my way through two fairly graphic and often nauseating works of fiction, both highly compelling, in entirely different mediums. One is the novel The Marbled Swarm by Dennis Cooper, the absolutely fuliginous comedy of which is part and parcel to its spots of horrid grisliness in conveying its themes of communication and the thin line between subject and object; the titular evasive, elliptical way of speaking which defines the narration is both hilarious and sincerely horrific in its implementation, both in what our distressingly glib incestuous cannibal narrator chooses to highlight and what he chooses to omit or merely imply. The other is the second season of the animated series Made in Abyss, subtitled The Golden City of the Scorching Sun, a New Weird-adjacent fantasy which is legitimately one of the most emotionally scouring things that I have ever watched; essentially a five-hour exploration of grief, desire, value, the justification of violence and abuse, and the liminal nature of embodiment, it is alternately devastatingly beautiful and completely disgusting, quite often at the exact same time. Neither one of these is something I can recommend to most people-I'm difficult to gross out, I have a pretty morbid sense of humour, and I like being disturbed and deeply saddened by art-but each touches on a place where I think extremity "works," for a lack of a better way of putting it.
P.S. I missed this one when it came out but clicked straight away when I saw Guyotat's Tomb for 500,000 Soldiers in the thumbnail. I really wish more people in these spheres were aware of his work…
Thank you so much for such a wonderfully detailed examination of what turns transgression and violence from base entertainment into an actual system of poetics. I, too, feel like the most resonant works of this kind are the ones that seriously (or perhaps even non-seriously, but in a truly committed way) engage with the rot they are showcasing, digging their fingers where others just gingerly point to shock and gore.
Edward Lee, Kristopher Triana, Jon Athan, Wade Garrett. My problem with these authors isn't the objectionable content. The reason I checked these authors out was specifically for objectionable content. My problem with them is that they are just terrible writers. Painfully bad writers. It's that simple. They write books for adults written at the reading level of children that could only be enjoyed by a small handful of edgelord teens.
Triana was close with Gone to See the River Man and Full Brutal. The dude has some decent story ideas. All the authors I mentioned have decent story ideas (except Wade Garrett. He's pathetic beyond what I'm willing to write here.). They just either won't take the time or simply don't have the ability to flesh those ideas out.
I would like to send some recognition to Aron Beauragard for the Slob and Son of Slob. On the standard scale I'd probably give them 2 stars out of 5 but on the extreme horror sliding scale they are masterworks.
I hate Wade Garrett.
And you know what I’ve realized? It’s BECAUSE I see the boundless potential in extreme horror that I’m so critical of them. I WANT OUR SIDE TO DO BETTER! 😂😂😂
Same. One of the only extreme horror titles I've enjoyed was The Mud Ballad, which reaches this balance of disturbing tragedy and black comedy to such perfection that the two extremes compliment each other. I mean, it's about Carnies performing necromancy on a parasitic twin. That's so wrong and gross that it becomes hilarious.
I actually do love it when the extreme spills into the laughable. It’s the reason I liked Edward Lee. However, not anyone can achieve that charm, and sadly, I feel like most extreme horror authors today wanna be Ed Lee so bad lol.
From your explanation I deducted that extreme horror is just 3rd rate romance novels, but horror
Actually, I’d venture to offer that extreme horror is even worse. 🤣
Because you need good motivation to be terrified by extreme horror. Modern horror does not terrify most people, because it is advertised as being extreme but lacks good or convincing or realistic motivation.
I’m not sure I understand your point here. Apologies!
@@PlaguedbyVisions No problem. The motivation example is a way to explain why modern culture needs that for people to be terrified by extreme horror. And so, modern horror does not terrify most people. Its advertised, marketed as being extreme this, extreme that, and then these people go take it and run with it - meanwhile, actual horror, really good horror is missed by these people, who are more used to cheap entertainment with crappy CGI. Real extreme horror is thus rare, has good practical effects, some CGI, and occasionally none at all.
@@PlaguedbyVisions My comment lacked the proper descriptive term here - ´good motivation´- sorry for this.
Interestint, sounds like you prefer literature that transgresses not just through its content, but transgresses the very form of the Novel/Story?
That’s somewhat true! But I think it’s generally the attitude towards transgression that makes it or breaks it for me. Transgression for the purpose to only shock and vicariously practice abuse through writing does nothing for me.
I have liked some extreme horror (wrath James white, some anthologies) and while some stories have made an impact (like porno for pyros had some stories with some impact) I have found the truly disturbing stories to be more subtle. I can read quite a bit of extreme horror for entertainment (rather than substance) because it isn't that disturbing for me, but if you put something in front of me that truly explores the darker aspects of human psychology (Joyce carol oates comes to mind) I will lose sleep over it.
I liked WJW too! And I think that’s the key difference maybe. WJW knows what he needs to do and does it. I find extreme horror often fails for me because it’s confused, redundant, uninspired, badly written, etc. Definitely not the content but the presentation.
For me a lot of the extreme/splatterpunk books are like the 'popcorn horror' of literature. Some people want to watch 'A Serbian Film (2010)' and some people watch 'Happiness (1998)...
I do hope that some of the shittier new wave extreme horror books (The Slob, Woom, Dead Inside etc) do act like a gateway for people to discover Batialle, Artaud, R-Murakami and so on 🤞. But at the same time if some people take a look and don't vibe with them, and are happy with their popcorn, then all the best to them!
The job of Plagued by Visions is now to go up to extreme horror fans and ask if they want to read Story of the Eye.
@@PlaguedbyVisions my brother in Christ
I love reading transgressive fiction, gothic and stuff that gives insight into social structures and special minds. But I don't like reading Horror, because I get disgusted by it and I don't like the approach to just shock the audience by extreme images of violence and gore. I like reading about violence, but it needs to have meaning and not just be violence for blood spilling purpose only. I hope I could explain myself somehow understandable. ^^°
Very well explained! And of course I agree. Horror hits best with nuance is what I’ve come to find.
I don't think you're being pretentious. If the literature is good, it's good; but if it's so-so... And I get literature can be subjective, but there are some objective mechanisms with which we can judge literature and give an honest assessment of it.
Fully agreed!
Extreme horror can be done well. The problem is that most of them are not done well. They’re garbage. Flagrant cash grabs aimed at an audience that can’t even explain why they like the stuff. “It KePt Me TuRnInG tHe PaGe!!” Of course it did. It’s called morbid curiosity. And morbid curiosity sells books. Period. I conducted a similar experiment asking a group of people to give me the best most well written examples of extreme horror fiction. What I got instead was a bunch of flavor of the week titles. Cows was on that list for Pete’s sake… And another thing. Extreme violence and gore in books? Ok. But understand that it’s a short jump from disturbing to comical. Go to far with unbelievable, unrealistic violence and you have comedy.
You know, I think this really nails why some people respond so positively to some of these books-we all have that morbid curiosity driving our reading, but some people have whetted their appetites much less, lmao, hence a more visceral response to mediocre writing.
Not enough references to Kristeva on booktube IMO 😂 Siân
Cowards, all of them!
I can't even deal with Bentley Little's books, what am I doing here? 🤣
Joking aside though, I agree. There's a big difference between exploring extreme subject matter and being edgy to be edgy.
I’ve yet to read Bentley Little!
@@PlaguedbyVisions You're not missing much. Most of his books are the same plot/character types, he just changes the setting; and his gory scenes tend to be just gross/cringe (I think he's trying to be funny but for me it doesn't land).
River Man comes off as camp. Even low camp. Self Deletion Stockholm Syndrome? Wow I am so disturbed. Also, I think the critiques of racism and extreme misogyny of this book are valid. Junior Kimbrough has a lot more songs than You Better Run, bro.
The Slob by Aron Beauregard has the most cringeworthily homophobic premise at its core, and I just rolled my eyes and moved on with my life. 😂
Dora explores extreme horror 😂
But seriously this was an exceptional explanation of what you look for and get out of books.
Can you say, “mutilación”?
First time comment but I have watched many of your videos. I appreciate what you post and admire your acumen. I think what may be happening is that you are drawn to the theory or philosophy of transgression and not so much transgression to serve a plot, or gain eyeballs. I'm going to ramble for a moment. Are you familiar with Rudolf Otto and his work The Idea of the Holy? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Otto He's the theologian who coined the term Mysterium Tremendum. When he discusses that moment of fear and trembling we experience in the presence of the sublime I think this is where you find yourself whilst in the presence of the Transgressive. Works which walk with you up to the liminal boundary and take you across with a near religious escstasy. "Lower" or more mundane works which serve cheap thrills cannot satisfy this experience for you. It is easy to see the intent of the writer.
love your name
First off, I love this incredible comment. Second, I think you are absolutely right, and definitely, though Otto, Burke, Bataille, Kristeva, etc. have all articulated these various moments of meaning we draw when having a recognizance with the horrors (the holy, the sublime, the deviant, the abject, etc.), I really don’t think it’s an experience that necessitates philosophical insight. The reason these philosophical insights exist in the first place is because they are universal. I think “lower” works can most definitely still achieve this (Ketchum is my favorite for a reason), but they just need an author at the helm who understands what the function of horror is, not just its reactionary power.