Hey, nice to see you here! 🙏 I found your channel first and watched quite a few of your videos before coming across this channel. Hope both of y'all keep up the great work!
@@abcdefksohfosuh9024 Please take me seriously on this. Redeemed Zoomer teaches a false gospel of justification by faith in Christ *plus* human effort. Specifically, his videos teach baptismal regeneration, the belief that baptism is a pre-condition for salvation *in addition to* faith. I believe he even published a video all about the topic recently. Please hear me out on this. I'm telling you this guy is a false teacher pushing a fake gospel.
For real! This chart should be reworked to have the overlap be between Pentecostal/charismatic, baptist, and non denominational. Not all charismatics are Pentecostal, but all Pentecostals are charismatic!
A division between LCMS and the ELCA would be a helpful clarifcation in your VENN diagram due to the deep and wide division between the two. Thanks for the work and sharing it.
Both of your comments about denominations was refreshing. Good fences make good neighbors, as it were. I'm always glad to fellowship with brothers of other traditions. RZ's comments about the two wrong ways toward unity were also spot on.
Being Catholic i will say i appreciate your discussion. As for the diagram itself, i had to let that digest for a while and honestly it feels like a baptist's view of who is going to heaven. I think a much better venn diagram would be of what religion's overlap doctrine wise or even which adhere to traditional understanding of scripture. But this diagram ain't doing it.
The diagram is revisionist history. There is no "little c" Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. Just under the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. This graph is meant to belittle the Catholic Church and promote this idea that it's just another denomination. It's a joke.
Catholic here, totally agree. Its hard for them to have a fair view of our faith. Nobody seems to ever leave catholicism if they understand it. In fact the only protestants ive seen online that were former catholics seem to have no knowledge of catholic doctrine. Mike Gendron and Steve Cristi both have painfully poor understandings of catholic doctrine and if RCIA class had a test at the end, guaranteed theyd both fail.
Bethel has ‘Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’. So, putting it with Actual Witchcraft is perfect and funny. And you can find out more about Hebrew Roots on an episode of Cultish podcast.
But remember that not all torah-observant Christians are Hebrew Roots. You mentioned the Cultish episode, but their information came from the work of Caleb Hegg who is a Pronomian Baptist. He was in somewhat frequent talks with Andrew Schumacher before and after his appearance on the Cultish show. If you want more information on torah-observant Christians (that sometimes gets lumped in with Hebrew Roots), I'd recommend checking out Caleb or David Wilber.
I wish non-denominational churches did a few things better: 1. Sang more hymns 2. Recite the creeds 3. Used a catechism I miss parts of Lutheranism and see a lot of pros of non-denomination/Baptist.
I just watched this right after the Anglican episode. I appreciate the great content from brothers in Christ and I pray that you have a great time with rhe Lutherans!
A lot of people don't understand that Methodists who follow original Wesleyan theology actually have an overlap with Eastern Orthodox theology in ways that other "Protestant" denominations do not. Some of those theological differences you called out, we actually either hold (the view of sanctification/theosis) or are at least influenced by (view of Communion, some of the view of sin and the Trinity). Proper Wesleyan theology is often not taught but if you really do learn about it then the commonalities become very striking and unique among the "Protestant" denominations.
Id say probably more similar among the high church than low. BUT I cannot figure out what the basis of the diagram actually is. (Did you notice that no one is center mass) it just feels like random similarities than any real correlating data points. If you picked up that being Baptist or Presbyterian puts your chances of being closer to center mass of being the elect than catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and orthodox combined. Feels more like a "my views are most correct" than objective data. Great discussion though
There should definitely be overlap between charismatics and non-denominational/baptists. I used to be charismatic, and most (if not all) charismatic churches I've been to would have considered themselves non-denominational with baptist leanings.
As someone born and raised Word of Faith I’ll throw my biased 2 cents in. I think there are many genuine believers in the Word of Faith movement. HOWEVER, if they stay Word of Faith their entire lives I’d have some questions at very least. It’s one of the big things I noticed growing up in Word of Faith is that it’s very much a revolving door. So few join and stay. I’ll always have a soft spot in my heart for Word of Faith because it’s where a love for the Bible was instilled in my heart. If that love of the Bible doesn’t eventually lead you to read the Bible and have some questions about the movement as a whole I’m inclined to think you don’t actually love the Bible, but rather the leader who’s telling you what the Bible REALLY says.
I used to go to Bethel! But that was almost 30 years ago. It was right after we were saved, we started going there but that only lasted a few months, I think, before we started going to a Baptist church, but my mom was baptized there. It was a LOT less weird than it is now. Back then it was just a basic charismatic. Though we did notice a shift when Bill Johnson became the pastor, we left shortly after that. I did go to the youth group there a few times after that, definitely not a reverent environment, but not anything close to ‘witchcraft’, just a lot of singing.
May I ask if you would agree that Oneness is apart of the elect? I havent watched the whole video I will more than likely later this week. Please respond!
I don't see much difference in PCUSA and ELCA so why exclude ELCA? Also, the Anabaptists aren't included (Amish, Mennonite, etc). I don't suppose his goal is to be comprehensive though.
@@the32712 Around my area, lots of Mennonite churches joined EVANA after MCUSA went liberal. My church is also conservative non-denominational after being Mennonite years ago. That was before my time, though.
Where are our Mennonite and Amish brothers on the diagram? :P The Church I attend in my tiny Appalachian community is a former Mennonite Church that went Non-Denom after their Mennonite Denomination went Liberal. I am a Reformed Baptist/IFB (KJVP) (and yes I laughed out loud when I saw us IFB-ers as rainbow haha).
RIP Terry Funk "Don't bury me on the lone prairie, no sirree. I want to go to Heaven in a wrestling ring." - Terry Funk 2009 Terry passed away yesterday.
Great video, men. I grew up Lutheran, Missouri Synod. I am now non-denominational but agree we are really Baptist. I agree with all of your assessments. Messianic Jews are wonderful people. Gentiles who love Jewish customs and the Torah are also wonderful. Was wondering where Church of Christ fits in if you have any thoughts. Not my preference or experience, just curious. Keep up the great work!
I think some of the sizes of the circles and overlaps were done out of geometrical necessity rather than to make a point, so perhaps it's best not to read too much into every detail.
I'm in N. Alabama and that's true here as well. But in some areas where there are midsized to giant megachurches, they are often Baptist in practice. They just remove the name so they can make their churches even bigger.
I'll just say one word in defense of Hebrew roots. There is a growing body of believers who seek to appreciate Christianity as a fulfillment of Judaism. It isn't that we have to obey all the Old Testament Law, but everything in the Old Testament points forward to the coming of Christ and our redemption. My men's group has been going through Leviticus, looking at all the laws of sacrifice and we keep seeing how Jesus has fulfilled every facet of the Law in order to purchase our final, perfect atonement. Dipping a toe in Hebrew roots can give you a greater appreciation for how God's plan works.
As someone who's been part of a Presbyterian equivalent of an IFB chuch, and then followed a few actual IFB guys, I find videos like this to be really helpful with untangling those knots(without taking it to the practically Unitarian Universalist extreme)
Spencer Smith is a whacko. He believes in this false idea that the Baptist Church somehow existed 2000yrs ago even though that literally isn't true. It's something I learned about him watching his channel.
Zoomer: "There are 12 major Christian traditions." What could he mean by that? Let's see: 1. Oriental Orhodoxy 2. Eastern Orthodoxy 3. Roman Catholicism 4. Anglicanism 5. Lutheranism 6. Calvinism 7. Methodism 8. Baptists 9. Pentecostalism 10. Nondenominationalism O.K., these are the obvious ones. My guess for the final two: 11. Moravians 12. Assyrian Church of the East. All right, now we have twelve, like the apostles.
He might have done better to put the Pentecostals next to the baptists/nondenominationals since they have similar doctrines and practices. And more groups in that sphere like Calvary Chapel and even Foursquare are moving further away from "Word of Faith" - style doctrines. But overall I do really like this categorization as long as it's geared toward ecumenism rather than division (for which reason I also really liked this conversation).
I get it's small and not a denomination in the traditional sense(maybe it's within the overlap of Baptist and non-dem) but I'd put Church of Christ there too. I know that RV doesn't really trust it toward it due to its skepticism toward formal creeds but I grew up in a non-dem church that was very similar to CoC. Sure, I went to a Baptist college that may have rubbed off on me in places but(take with a grain of salt since I used one of those online denom quizzes since I moved recently) I align about 90% with CoC and about 80% with Baptist. The main difference is that CoC believes that baptism is required for salvation(not in infant baptism) and the importance of communion and generally not in eternal security like the Baptists. Otherwise, they're basically the same.
It seems to me that soteriology plays a weighted value in determining who is in and who is out of the Catholic circle. Also, doesn’t the ELCNA need some rainbow?
I know more Baptists outside the circle and more Catholics inside and also the charasmatics and non-denom. If this is funny then ok, but if meant to be true then a bit arrogant or just ignorant in my opinion. That said I'm from the South and now live in the NW, USA. Maybe this is worldwide or from a POV in another location. Or maybe there is a definition I'm missing. I also know plenty NAR folks that are way more walking with Christ and making a dent in the Kingdom than most of the others. Thank you Zoomer for not commenting without knowing more.
What would the apostles think about this? Do you think St Paul would be happy if you said the Corinthian Church was more part of the universal church than the Jerusalem Church or the other way around? Is Christ divided? What is the principle of Unity in the church?
For me, it’s preference in style and understanding. You have salvational issues, essentials and then preferences. Those closer in to each other differ mostly on preferences. The further out are differences in essentials and then salvational. IMHO
If you want a great book on the subject of NAR, I couldn’t recommend more “Counterfeit Kingdom” by Holly Pivec and R. Douglas Geivett. Handles well and fairly the whole subject and it’s far reaching roots.
Where are the Moravians? the Quakers? the Congregationalists? the Holiness churches? the Plymouth Brethren? the Disciples of Christ? the Unitarians? the Swedenborgians?
Ready to Harvest has some nice videos. I think if you look at sacraments, ordinance and other church traditions the Lutheran might be closer to the Romans. I have heard it said if Martin Luther or walks into a Catholic church today he will feel more at home and actual Lutheran Church. I would have put the Hebrew Roots slightly in the circle because I know it is a spectrum from the holy name sayers to seeing how Christ brought the Old Covenant into full maturity. Like Passover lamb Jesus being Lamb of God that takes the sins of the worldor giving of Ten Statements to the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.
I wonder if the size of the circles isn't designed to reflect the numbers of attendants so much as the breadth of different beliefs within what would still be called the 'tradition'? In that sense, perhaps NAR is 'broader' than Roman Catholicism?
Mike Winger did a second video on Bethel called “Bethel and Bill Johnson’s Bridge to the New Age and Spiritual Fakery.” where he works through one of their published books where multiple of their church leaders actively encourage the flock that, since every lie of the enemy has a kernel of truth in it after all, we all need to explore into new age and occultism and reclaim the good in them that the enemy took from us by perverting it so we can restore everything back to the fullness of God’s intended purpose! The book starts out rather vague, top-down sort of overarching ideas to get you to understand the basic framework (and establishing how Jesus will definitely protect you from any evil spirits you might open yourself up to because He’s more powerful than them and you are a child of God), and then specifically talking about practices they’ve done within their church, their school of supernatural ministry, in their personal lives, in discipleship, etc. to reclaim new age and occult stolen goods, such as by having on-command “visions to heaven” (and how to let go of that nagging voice telling you you’re making it all up as you go-not kidding) as well as to prophecy on command and more. Just think about what prophecy is, literally receiving words from God. And we know Samuel received it so audibly he though Eli was calling him. The Israelites heard Him audibly from Mt Sinai and begged Him to not speak to them directly anymore and only to talk to Moses for them, who spoke with the LORD face-to-face as with a friend, (although we know he never saw His face, but the place was filled with an incredibly thick cloud whenever the LORD descended upon it). To claim to prophesy when you were actually just making it up in the Old Testament was punishable by death for the false prophet has spoken presumptuously. And, in the whole entire Bible, what was the only thing false prophets ever prophesied? Good things, oh yes, good things all! It’s your season of gold, of blessing, of breakthrough! The captives are coming home, the war is over, we’ve won! Go up to battle again, the LORD is surely with you! Honestly, I don’t know what to say but we need to pray for them. Seriously. I believe a lot of them have zeal for the LORD, but zeal without knowledge. Many people have been truly saved in those churches, and then the Holy Spirit led them out! Haha. Praise God!! 🥳
@@toolegittoquit_001 I think he has renounced Bill Johnson at this point in time, and he talks about wanting to push back against this theology. In the video he also talks about how he’s near Redding, California where Bethel is HQ’d and how their strategy is to get their theology into all churches everywhere through their music first and then by sending people to different congregations to seed them with this theology, so Mike renounces all of that too but doesn’t go so far as to say that all attendees are damned or anything like that.
I guess Bethel is not the most precise example when we talk about NAR. Perhaps, Peter Wagner made the best description of the distinctives of NAR which are far from just being assiociated with Bethel. This diagram also fails to consider folks from the Oriental Orthodox and Church of the East. But we know this graph is not meant to be taken too seriously as a real scientific graph 😂😂😂 Great show, Keith and RZ!
This is the second time I've seen someone suggest word of faith is either heretical or borderline heretical and I still have no idea where this is coming from. Word of Faith has some weird beliefs that I question, but heresy...?
Yes, the 'little Gods' doctrine is certainly heresy and asserting God wants all to be healed and if you're not, it's your fault because you don't have enough faith There's more but that's a start
Let me suggest that just about every denomination intersects the RC circle in places. The reason I say this is there always seems to be someone who admires their pomp and ceremony. Of course, this is probably more roman in roots than christian.
Lifelong Roman Catholic lol there should be more 12:21 overlap with Eastern Orthodox completely agrees lol they’re the only other ones who believe in transubstantiation of the host they’re the only other churches we take communion at 😂but there are MAJOR differences always was shocked when the Trinity comes up
Why is Pentecostalism/Charismaticism so far away from Baptist and Nondenom? Nondenom is just an even mixture of Baptist and Pentecostal, and also known as Charastmatic.
I don’t know why we say the mass is heresy, but when the Baptist say there is no meaning in the Lords supper at all is not also heresy. Well John Calvin and John Knox did condemn both!
What a great video! Not christian at all, but trying to figure out the *devine enigma* is my thing. Understanding christianity is part of that, and denominational study is great to understand christian theology through differences between them. Blessings to zoomer and to this channel as well.
Have you read the Bible? Every denomination has to define its doctrine by what is written in the Bible. Of course, every denomination has a fee things wrong, but it all cones down to what is in the Scriptures.
A lot of confusion arises because of the idea that the question is who is in the body of Christ when in reality huge chunk of the debate is the nature of the covenant and who is in, or under, the covenant. Equating the covenant with the body is one of the central issues.
Seventh day adventism should be in arianism. Its literally in their fundamental beliefs titled "The Great Controversy" that Jesus was an archangel on par with Satan, and that satan rebelled because God exalted Jesus to be on par with God. angels are created beings. Connect the dots
Not to me. They prove our point. I am happy that they omit us from a list of denominations. That must mean that they agree with us that we have indeed restored the true church back to its original status.
The center graph tries to present this crazy idea the "Roman Catholic Church" is somehow a break off of the "lower" case c Catholic Church. This is just silly. The Roman Catholic Church is only describing the roman rite of the Catholic Church. It's not something seperate from the Catholic Church. It literally is the Catholic Church. Time stamp 13:00 You may not think of denominationalism as a bad thing, but really it is, because it violates scripture really. We can clearly see that we are not supposed to be divided into multiple denominations. The Church is not this mighty morphin power rangers megazord of a multitude of "like minded believers denominations " all coming together to make the "Church". The Church is ONE. ONE body in Christ. The church is also called the bride of Christ. Multiple Churches is polygamy. Christ cannot have multiple brides each with their own pastors and priests contradicting one another. If that's how Christianity was meant to exist then why did it have all these early Church councils hundreds of years ago? To settle the squabbling which has become modern protestantism. That's why the Catholic Church in her wisdom saw the necessity of these authoratative councils. Without the magesterium of the Catholic Church it becomes a mess. There cannot be seperate Churches each being allowed "their truth " there is only one true Church. The Church which gave us the Bible, the Church which existed prior to the FAILED reformation. The Church which you borrow the theology and doctrine of the Holy Trinity from. One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The one with the big "C" not the little c.
The diagram is not intended to show "Break offs" that would be best described by a tree structure. The central circle represents all of the redeemed. Intersections with it indicate the presence of the redeemed within the denominations/traditions. This particular diagram is poorly executed but it doesn't really attempt to depict origins.
Pentacostals are a subset of Charismatic, which is a very broad category. So yeah, it's not great to have one circle labeled "Pentacostal/Charismatic" (but the diagram *was* drawn up by a Baptist), but the Pentacostal circle would be completely inside the Charismatic circle (given that "cessasionist Pentacostal" is basically a contradiction in terms).
@@JonBrase Yes that claim in a broader sense is correct. Historically however, the Pentecostals as a distinct group were around long before the charismatic renewals happened.
How about we all humble ourselves like the dust and ashes we are and agree that in our fallen state of sin none of our theology is infallible only God and his infinite wisdom is, that way we can behold the birds and consider the lilies like Jesus told us too.
7th day is way too close to the center. They should be further out, and closer to the JWs, since theyre both second adventist. I laughed when i saw the actual witchcraft/nar overlap. Funnier yet if familiar with spencer smiths work
Totally. I get why 7th day Adventist and Hebrew roots are close, in they both try to appropriate Judaism, and sure Mormons call other ppl gentiles, but Mormonism is outright paganism
if i had two tweeks to this chart it would be to bring the roman catholicism out more so that it only border lined the universal church, and i would bring the sda further inward. here in the south there are alot of actual christian SDA members who are ignorant of there legalistic theology. great video though! keep it up.
UM, That would be stupid. The "Roman Catholic Church" is the "little c" Church in the graph. Protestants want to believe this isn't so, but in all actuality it totally is. The early Church was the Roman Catholic Church. It practiced the exact same doctrines and believed the same things. It's not somehow there was this magical little "c" Catholic Church. This graph is just an attempt at revisionist history. We live in the age of Google, so we can easily see that this little "c" Catholic Church is actually the Roman Catholic Church.
Despicable Baptists trying to trick Jews into idolatry. Atleast the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox are open about their desire to eliminate Judaism and their idolatry.
Messianic Jews are not a denomination. A Messianic Jew can be a part of any denomination, but they are commonly evangelical. Some messianic Jews maintain Jewish traditions like Passover, but a messianic Jew is really just a Jewish Christian.
Pentecostal is not a denomination. However, there are numerous types of Pentecostal denominations (e.g., AG and Foursquare). Most of the churches within these two denominations are considerably different from the churches you might call Pentecostal/Charismatic.
I know its for comedy and I am also being sarcastic, but based on these overlaps I don't know what this guy thinks comprises that central circle and as a Catholic, I think I would want to be sure to be in the non overlapping part of our circle lol.
For sure RC and EO should overlap. EO is the superior branch because the preists are rarely gay and the churches haven't embraced paganism or sexual heresies. RC should overlap with Charismatic. Having come out of Word of Faith, the leadership are generally con men, the congregations love the Lord and have been deceived on some details. I'm still Charismatic. And I think you're wrong about Oneness. They're wrong and usually theologically ignorant but still confess that Jesus is God, and is the risen son and Messiah, so yeah- believers.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The gulf between Eastern Christian theology and Western Christian theology is greater than is the division between Protestantism and Catholicism. While it's true that outwardly, Orthodoxy and Catholicism look more like each other, while Protestantism looks different, the truth is that in many subtler theological ways, Orthodoxy is quite different. This stems from the fact that the West is dominated by the theology of St. Augustine, while the East is not. Oneness Pentecostals believe Jesus is God, but they deny the Trinity. They're Modalists, and Modalism is a heresy outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity.
I wouldn’t have any overlap between the elect and the Roman Catholics, or the Orthodox Church, or Word of Faith - and why are the IFB/KJVOs marked with a rainbow? They aren’t liberal like PCUSA, UMC, or Episcopalian.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #30 ДВА В ОДНОМ [Один человек]• Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nrXy15orKhY/mqdefault.jpg)
This was really fun! Thanks for having me on the show again!
Anytime bro! I enjoyed the conversation as always!
Hey, nice to see you here! 🙏 I found your channel first and watched quite a few of your videos before coming across this channel. Hope both of y'all keep up the great work!
@@ConversationswithaCalvinist Are you aware that Redeemed Zoomer rejects justification by faith alone? He is *not* Reformed by any measure.
@@danielwoodruff3118 That's untrue, he affirms sola fide, you can see in his video titled "is salvation by faith alone?"
@@abcdefksohfosuh9024 Please take me seriously on this. Redeemed Zoomer teaches a false gospel of justification by faith in Christ *plus* human effort. Specifically, his videos teach baptismal regeneration, the belief that baptism is a pre-condition for salvation *in addition to* faith. I believe he even published a video all about the topic recently. Please hear me out on this. I'm telling you this guy is a false teacher pushing a fake gospel.
He missed the non-denom overlap with Pentecostal. That overlap is real.
In Latin America most non-denom's are charismatic
yea, "Non Denominational" churches are either Baptist in theology or Pentecostal in theology, or are mesh of the two.
For real! This chart should be reworked to have the overlap be between Pentecostal/charismatic, baptist, and non denominational. Not all charismatics are Pentecostal, but all Pentecostals are charismatic!
@@matthewmencel5978 Yeah I think most Charismatic/Pentecostals are also Credo Baptists which is probably the most Baptist thing about Baptists.
@paradoxelle481 all Pentecostals are Credo-Baptist I don't know of a single Pentecostal denomination that affirms Infant-Baptism.
"I don't know enough about them to make a wise criticism of them myself."
More virtuous words are rarely spoken.
It is nice to hear that there is move within the PCUSA to Reconquista. May God get the Glory.
A division between LCMS and the ELCA would be a helpful clarifcation in your VENN diagram due to the deep and wide division between the two. Thanks for the work and sharing it.
Both of your comments about denominations was refreshing. Good fences make good neighbors, as it were. I'm always glad to fellowship with brothers of other traditions. RZ's comments about the two wrong ways toward unity were also spot on.
Being Catholic i will say i appreciate your discussion. As for the diagram itself, i had to let that digest for a while and honestly it feels like a baptist's view of who is going to heaven. I think a much better venn diagram would be of what religion's overlap doctrine wise or even which adhere to traditional understanding of scripture. But this diagram ain't doing it.
The diagram is revisionist history. There is no "little c" Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. Just under the Roman rite of the Catholic Church. This graph is meant to belittle the Catholic Church and promote this idea that it's just another denomination. It's a joke.
We're all the same religion: Christianity.
@@joshuakarr-BibleMan The theological differences matter because they are contradictory.
have to agree with you as an Anglican haha
Catholic here, totally agree. Its hard for them to have a fair view of our faith. Nobody seems to ever leave catholicism if they understand it. In fact the only protestants ive seen online that were former catholics seem to have no knowledge of catholic doctrine. Mike Gendron and Steve Cristi both have painfully poor understandings of catholic doctrine and if RCIA class had a test at the end, guaranteed theyd both fail.
Bethel has ‘Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’. So, putting it with Actual Witchcraft is perfect and funny.
And you can find out more about Hebrew Roots on an episode of Cultish podcast.
That's why Chris Rosebrough always calls them Hogwarts.
But remember that not all torah-observant Christians are Hebrew Roots. You mentioned the Cultish episode, but their information came from the work of Caleb Hegg who is a Pronomian Baptist. He was in somewhat frequent talks with Andrew Schumacher before and after his appearance on the Cultish show. If you want more information on torah-observant Christians (that sometimes gets lumped in with Hebrew Roots), I'd recommend checking out Caleb or David Wilber.
Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry sounds like a school from Harry Potter lol
I'm Lutheran, and I didn't want to explode...until Redeemed Zoomer said that Lutherans explode! Now I'm in Luther-Hulk mode!
😂😆😉 Just kidding. Mostly.
Confessional Lutheran here. I love both your channels. This is a great collaboration video.
Have you read the Magdeburg Confession? Didn't know about it until recently. Great reading.
@@perilousrange Good tip! Divine law is supreme over the laws of earthly rulers. It was true then and it is true now.
I wish non-denominational churches did a few things better:
1. Sang more hymns
2. Recite the creeds
3. Used a catechism
I miss parts of Lutheranism and see a lot of pros of non-denomination/Baptist.
Why would a confessional Lutheran like this diagram? No one knows what a nondenominational believes - how does that make them more of a Christian.
I just watched this right after the Anglican episode.
I appreciate the great content from brothers in Christ and I pray that you have a great time with rhe Lutherans!
A lot of people don't understand that Methodists who follow original Wesleyan theology actually have an overlap with Eastern Orthodox theology in ways that other "Protestant" denominations do not. Some of those theological differences you called out, we actually either hold (the view of sanctification/theosis) or are at least influenced by (view of Communion, some of the view of sin and the Trinity). Proper Wesleyan theology is often not taught but if you really do learn about it then the commonalities become very striking and unique among the "Protestant" denominations.
As a presby who has deep connections with Lutherans, THANK YOU for defending them as not RCC.
I’m ironically a Lutheran who was baptized Presbyterian reading your comment
Id say probably more similar among the high church than low. BUT I cannot figure out what the basis of the diagram actually is. (Did you notice that no one is center mass) it just feels like random similarities than any real correlating data points. If you picked up that being Baptist or Presbyterian puts your chances of being closer to center mass of being the elect than catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and orthodox combined. Feels more like a "my views are most correct" than objective data. Great discussion though
There should definitely be overlap between charismatics and non-denominational/baptists. I used to be charismatic, and most (if not all) charismatic churches I've been to would have considered themselves non-denominational with baptist leanings.
As someone born and raised Word of Faith I’ll throw my biased 2 cents in. I think there are many genuine believers in the Word of Faith movement. HOWEVER, if they stay Word of Faith their entire lives I’d have some questions at very least. It’s one of the big things I noticed growing up in Word of Faith is that it’s very much a revolving door. So few join and stay. I’ll always have a soft spot in my heart for Word of Faith because it’s where a love for the Bible was instilled in my heart. If that love of the Bible doesn’t eventually lead you to read the Bible and have some questions about the movement as a whole I’m inclined to think you don’t actually love the Bible, but rather the leader who’s telling you what the Bible REALLY says.
I thought I recognized you in the thumbnail!
I hope everything is going well with your family.
Now THIS is content
I used to go to Bethel! But that was almost 30 years ago. It was right after we were saved, we started going there but that only lasted a few months, I think, before we started going to a Baptist church, but my mom was baptized there. It was a LOT less weird than it is now. Back then it was just a basic charismatic. Though we did notice a shift when Bill Johnson became the pastor, we left shortly after that. I did go to the youth group there a few times after that, definitely not a reverent environment, but not anything close to ‘witchcraft’, just a lot of singing.
“Mr.” Zoomer to you, Keith!
Liked the video, is Calvinism part of the Baptist denomination then? I grew up Southern Baptist but we didn’t learn about Calvinism.
@MrBungleCK I appreciate you taking the time to explain, thank you.
A Calvinist wouldn't teach Calvinism, they would teach Christ. (1 Cor 1:10-13)
May I ask if you would agree that Oneness is apart of the elect?
I havent watched the whole video
I will more than likely later this week.
Please respond!
I don't see much difference in PCUSA and ELCA so why exclude ELCA?
Also, the Anabaptists aren't included (Amish, Mennonite, etc).
I don't suppose his goal is to be comprehensive though.
If his goal were to be comprehensive, this diagram would be A LOT more crowded. I can think of all kinds of denominations that aren't mentioned here.
I was a little disappointed that the Amish and Mennonite communities weren't included.
I also saw that. I attend a former Mennonite Church that went Non-Denom after their former Mennonite conference went Liberal.
@@the32712 Around my area, lots of Mennonite churches joined EVANA after MCUSA went liberal. My church is also conservative non-denominational after being Mennonite years ago. That was before my time, though.
Lol on the KJOV jabs. I've always enjoyed touching them with my NIV and hollering, "IT TOUCHED YOU! IT TOUCHED YOU!" 😂
Oh my goodness 😂 I go to a KJVO church (I’m very against KJVO but I agree with everything else)
So the one thing I found interesting in its absence was Coptic Christians Egypt and Ethiopia particularly are where these people are found.
What about the Anabaptists? Why do they get so forgotten about? I have good Mennonite brothers and sisters in Christ!
Where are our Mennonite and Amish brothers on the diagram? :P
The Church I attend in my tiny Appalachian community is a former Mennonite Church that went Non-Denom after their Mennonite Denomination went Liberal. I am a Reformed Baptist/IFB (KJVP) (and yes I laughed out loud when I saw us IFB-ers as rainbow haha).
RIP Terry Funk
"Don't bury me on the lone prairie, no sirree. I want to go to Heaven in a wrestling ring." - Terry Funk 2009
Terry passed away yesterday.
I think that the Lutheran and Catholic overlap is fair since Lutherans sometimes refer to themselves as Evangelical Catholics.
Great video, men. I grew up Lutheran,
Missouri Synod. I am now non-denominational but agree we are really Baptist. I agree with all of your assessments. Messianic Jews are wonderful people. Gentiles who love Jewish customs and the Torah are also wonderful. Was wondering where Church of Christ fits in if you have any thoughts. Not my preference or experience, just curious.
Keep up the great work!
I think some of the sizes of the circles and overlaps were done out of geometrical necessity rather than to make a point, so perhaps it's best not to read too much into every detail.
loved this podcast
I’m surprised to hear nondenominational is Baptist to y’all. Around here (rural Ala) nondenominational = charismatic/pentecost
90+% of the time
I'm in N. Alabama and that's true here as well. But in some areas where there are midsized to giant megachurches, they are often Baptist in practice. They just remove the name so they can make their churches even bigger.
Here in Appalachia most NonDenoms are Baptist. I imagine it varies all over the U.S.
for us in tennessee non denom means heretical, baptist, or reformed baptist.
Sometimes we use the term 'bapticostal' to refer to nondenom 😂
Its one or the other.
I'll just say one word in defense of Hebrew roots. There is a growing body of believers who seek to appreciate Christianity as a fulfillment of Judaism. It isn't that we have to obey all the Old Testament Law, but everything in the Old Testament points forward to the coming of Christ and our redemption.
My men's group has been going through Leviticus, looking at all the laws of sacrifice and we keep seeing how Jesus has fulfilled every facet of the Law in order to purchase our final, perfect atonement.
Dipping a toe in Hebrew roots can give you a greater appreciation for how God's plan works.
As someone who's been part of a Presbyterian equivalent of an IFB chuch, and then followed a few actual IFB guys, I find videos like this to be really helpful with untangling those knots(without taking it to the practically Unitarian Universalist extreme)
Keith I wonder if you’d have Spencer Smith on? He seems a more level headed IFB guy.
Spencer Smith is a whacko. He believes in this false idea that the Baptist Church somehow existed 2000yrs ago even though that literally isn't true. It's something I learned about him watching his channel.
Zoomer: "There are 12 major Christian traditions."
What could he mean by that? Let's see:
1. Oriental Orhodoxy
2. Eastern Orthodoxy
3. Roman Catholicism
4. Anglicanism
5. Lutheranism
6. Calvinism
7. Methodism
8. Baptists
9. Pentecostalism
10. Nondenominationalism
O.K., these are the obvious ones. My guess for the final two:
11. Moravians
12. Assyrian Church of the East.
All right, now we have twelve, like the apostles.
I guess that's an excellent summary.
I’d change the Assyrian church to simply “Apostolic Churches” because there are many eastern churches that arent Orthodox
My Word of Faith Church is also into Hebraic Roots. God’s timing and the yearly cycle of feasts.
THAT'S scary 😳
He might have done better to put the Pentecostals next to the baptists/nondenominationals since they have similar doctrines and practices. And more groups in that sphere like Calvary Chapel and even Foursquare are moving further away from "Word of Faith" - style doctrines.
But overall I do really like this categorization as long as it's geared toward ecumenism rather than division (for which reason I also really liked this conversation).
I get it's small and not a denomination in the traditional sense(maybe it's within the overlap of Baptist and non-dem) but I'd put Church of Christ there too. I know that RV doesn't really trust it toward it due to its skepticism toward formal creeds but I grew up in a non-dem church that was very similar to CoC. Sure, I went to a Baptist college that may have rubbed off on me in places but(take with a grain of salt since I used one of those online denom quizzes since I moved recently) I align about 90% with CoC and about 80% with Baptist. The main difference is that CoC believes that baptism is required for salvation(not in infant baptism) and the importance of communion and generally not in eternal security like the Baptists. Otherwise, they're basically the same.
What about the Anabaptists - Mennonites, Amish, ?
It seems to me that soteriology plays a weighted value in determining who is in and who is out of the Catholic circle.
Also, doesn’t the ELCNA need some rainbow?
I know more Baptists outside the circle and more Catholics inside and also the charasmatics and non-denom. If this is funny then ok, but if meant to be true then a bit arrogant or just ignorant in my opinion. That said I'm from the South and now live in the NW, USA. Maybe this is worldwide or from a POV in another location. Or maybe there is a definition I'm missing. I also know plenty NAR folks that are way more walking with Christ and making a dent in the Kingdom than most of the others. Thank you Zoomer for not commenting without knowing more.
I think the center is the persecuted church. Since alot of the early church and current church is persecuted
What would the apostles think about this? Do you think St Paul would be happy if you said the Corinthian Church was more part of the universal church than the Jerusalem Church or the other way around? Is Christ divided? What is the principle of Unity in the church?
Category problems my friend. Local congregation is not equal to separate denomination.
For me, it’s preference in style and understanding. You have salvational issues, essentials and then preferences. Those closer in to each other differ mostly on preferences. The further out are differences in essentials and then salvational. IMHO
Curious what Redeemed Zoomer's list of 12 would be.
If you want a great book on the subject of NAR, I couldn’t recommend more “Counterfeit Kingdom” by Holly Pivec and R. Douglas Geivett. Handles well and fairly the whole subject and it’s far reaching roots.
Where is the Oriental Orthodox Church? Where are the Anabaptists? The Old Catholics? The Church of the East?
Where are the Moravians? the Quakers? the Congregationalists? the Holiness churches? the Plymouth Brethren? the Disciples of Christ? the Unitarians? the Swedenborgians?
I could tell redeemed Zoomer was from the PCUSA because he didnt have a pipe or a cigar in his mouth drinking scotch
Or a beard
Probably can't grow one yet
Ready to Harvest has some nice videos.
I think if you look at sacraments, ordinance and other church traditions the Lutheran might be closer to the Romans. I have heard it said if Martin Luther or walks into a Catholic church today he will feel more at home and actual Lutheran Church.
I would have put the Hebrew Roots slightly in the circle because I know it is a spectrum from the holy name sayers to seeing how Christ brought the Old Covenant into full maturity. Like Passover lamb Jesus being Lamb of God that takes the sins of the worldor giving of Ten Statements to the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.
ua-cam.com/video/4pQxtMaWUuA/v-deo.htmlsi=nJeJJMZQeqKqXAy3
Perhaps Revelation 14:4 describes the center of the Kingdom in this diagram?
I wonder if the size of the circles isn't designed to reflect the numbers of attendants so much as the breadth of different beliefs within what would still be called the 'tradition'? In that sense, perhaps NAR is 'broader' than Roman Catholicism?
If that were the case, the RCC circle would be much larger
Mike Winger did a second video on Bethel called “Bethel and Bill Johnson’s Bridge to the New Age and Spiritual Fakery.” where he works through one of their published books where multiple of their church leaders actively encourage the flock that, since every lie of the enemy has a kernel of truth in it after all, we all need to explore into new age and occultism and reclaim the good in them that the enemy took from us by perverting it so we can restore everything back to the fullness of God’s intended purpose!
The book starts out rather vague, top-down sort of overarching ideas to get you to understand the basic framework (and establishing how Jesus will definitely protect you from any evil spirits you might open yourself up to because He’s more powerful than them and you are a child of God), and then specifically talking about practices they’ve done within their church, their school of supernatural ministry, in their personal lives, in discipleship, etc. to reclaim new age and occult stolen goods, such as by having on-command “visions to heaven” (and how to let go of that nagging voice telling you you’re making it all up as you go-not kidding) as well as to prophecy on command and more.
Just think about what prophecy is, literally receiving words from God. And we know Samuel received it so audibly he though Eli was calling him. The Israelites heard Him audibly from Mt Sinai and begged Him to not speak to them directly anymore and only to talk to Moses for them, who spoke with the LORD face-to-face as with a friend, (although we know he never saw His face, but the place was filled with an incredibly thick cloud whenever the LORD descended upon it).
To claim to prophesy when you were actually just making it up in the Old Testament was punishable by death for the false prophet has spoken presumptuously. And, in the whole entire Bible, what was the only thing false prophets ever prophesied? Good things, oh yes, good things all! It’s your season of gold, of blessing, of breakthrough! The captives are coming home, the war is over, we’ve won! Go up to battle again, the LORD is surely with you!
Honestly, I don’t know what to say but we need to pray for them. Seriously. I believe a lot of them have zeal for the LORD, but zeal without knowledge. Many people have been truly saved in those churches, and then the Holy Spirit led them out! Haha. Praise God!! 🥳
And yet still considers Johnson a Brother ? 🤔
@@toolegittoquit_001
I think he has renounced Bill Johnson at this point in time, and he talks about wanting to push back against this theology. In the video he also talks about how he’s near Redding, California where Bethel is HQ’d and how their strategy is to get their theology into all churches everywhere through their music first and then by sending people to different congregations to seed them with this theology, so Mike renounces all of that too but doesn’t go so far as to say that all attendees are damned or anything like that.
As an Anabaptist, I see we didn't even make the chart.
I noticed that too.
I guess Bethel is not the most precise example when we talk about NAR. Perhaps, Peter Wagner made the best description of the distinctives of NAR which are far from just being assiociated with Bethel. This diagram also fails to consider folks from the Oriental Orthodox and Church of the East.
But we know this graph is not meant to be taken too seriously as a real scientific graph 😂😂😂
Great show, Keith and RZ!
What a lot of fun this was
The reconquest idea worked for the Lutherans, methodists and Anglicans.
I am so offended of how little you have offended me and my denomination.
Where are the Evangelical Friends we aren't new, rocking it since 1640
This is the second time I've seen someone suggest word of faith is either heretical or borderline heretical and I still have no idea where this is coming from. Word of Faith has some weird beliefs that I question, but heresy...?
Yes, the 'little Gods' doctrine is certainly heresy and asserting God wants all to be healed and if you're not, it's your fault because you don't have enough faith
There's more but that's a start
Let me suggest that just about every denomination intersects the RC circle in places. The reason I say this is there always seems to be someone who admires their pomp and ceremony. Of course, this is probably more roman in roots than christian.
That's because the only Church Jesus made was the evil Roman Catholic Church Paul, your very Bible is a work of these vile Catholic scum councils.
Where are the Amish and Mennonites?
I don’t see the Church of Christ on the diagram. They are a lot of CoC in the south, don’t know about the rest of the country.
I am happy that they forgot us on the list of denominations. That must mean we aren't one.
I would like to know how Redeemed Zoomer counts the traditions to get to 12
Easy, you just count the ones you like better and stop at 12.
Where would you put the Campbellites?
The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) is probably no longer large enough to be listed. Their membership numbers are almost down to nothing.
Meanwhile us Continental Reformed (3 Forms of Unity) aka OG Calvinism get completely omitted AGAIN 😂
Lifelong Roman Catholic lol there should be more 12:21 overlap with Eastern Orthodox completely agrees lol they’re the only other ones who believe in transubstantiation of the host they’re the only other churches we take communion at 😂but there are MAJOR differences always was shocked when the Trinity comes up
Why is Pentecostalism/Charismaticism so far away from Baptist and Nondenom? Nondenom is just an even mixture of Baptist and Pentecostal, and also known as Charastmatic.
I don’t know why we say the mass is heresy, but when the Baptist say there is no meaning in the Lords supper at all is not also heresy. Well John Calvin and John Knox did condemn both!
Zoomer is the best!
What a great video! Not christian at all, but trying to figure out the *devine enigma* is my thing. Understanding christianity is part of that, and denominational study is great to understand christian theology through differences between them. Blessings to zoomer and to this channel as well.
Have you read the Bible?
Every denomination has to define its doctrine by what is written in the Bible.
Of course, every denomination has a fee things wrong, but it all cones down to what is in the Scriptures.
@@joshuakarr-BibleMansurely i did. Not the whole thing unfortunatly, but working on it
A lot of confusion arises because of the idea that the question is who is in the body of Christ when in reality huge chunk of the debate is the nature of the covenant and who is in, or under, the covenant. Equating the covenant with the body is one of the central issues.
Wait wait wait wait. What are the approx 12 Christain traditions? If that is accurate that's a CRAZY parallel
Seventh day adventism should be in arianism. Its literally in their fundamental beliefs titled "The Great Controversy" that Jesus was an archangel on par with Satan, and that satan rebelled because God exalted Jesus to be on par with God. angels are created beings. Connect the dots
It's frustrating and sad how often American Restoration denominations get left out
Not to me. They prove our point. I am happy that they omit us from a list of denominations. That must mean that they agree with us that we have indeed restored the true church back to its original status.
Please go on with Anthony Abbate (Avoiding Babylon) !!! Would be amazing! 😀
The center graph tries to present this crazy idea the "Roman Catholic Church" is somehow a break off of the "lower" case c Catholic Church. This is just silly. The Roman Catholic Church is only describing the roman rite of the Catholic Church. It's not something seperate from the Catholic Church.
It literally is the Catholic Church.
Time stamp 13:00
You may not think of denominationalism as a bad thing, but really it is, because it violates scripture really. We can clearly see that we are not supposed to be divided into multiple denominations.
The Church is not this mighty morphin power rangers megazord of a multitude of "like minded believers denominations " all coming together to make the "Church".
The Church is ONE. ONE body in Christ. The church is also called the bride of Christ. Multiple Churches is polygamy.
Christ cannot have multiple brides each with their own pastors and priests contradicting one another.
If that's how Christianity was meant to exist then why did it have all these early Church councils hundreds of years ago?
To settle the squabbling which has become modern protestantism. That's why the Catholic Church in her wisdom saw the necessity of these authoratative councils. Without the magesterium of the Catholic Church it becomes a mess.
There cannot be seperate Churches each being allowed "their truth " there is only one true Church. The Church which gave us the Bible, the Church which existed prior to the FAILED reformation. The Church which you borrow the theology and doctrine of the Holy Trinity from.
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The one with the big "C" not the little c.
The diagram is not intended to show "Break offs" that would be best described by a tree structure. The central circle represents all of the redeemed. Intersections with it indicate the presence of the redeemed within the denominations/traditions.
This particular diagram is poorly executed but it doesn't really attempt to depict origins.
Pentecostal and Charismatic are distinct. WOF more aligned with Charismatic. Pentecostals have their own circle.
Pentacostals are a subset of Charismatic, which is a very broad category. So yeah, it's not great to have one circle labeled "Pentacostal/Charismatic" (but the diagram *was* drawn up by a Baptist), but the Pentacostal circle would be completely inside the Charismatic circle (given that "cessasionist Pentacostal" is basically a contradiction in terms).
@@JonBrase Yes that claim in a broader sense is correct. Historically however, the Pentecostals as a distinct group were around long before the charismatic renewals happened.
Lutheranism should be a lot closer to Anglicanism than Orthodoxy
Hmmm, I saw that diagram somewhere...
How about we all humble ourselves like the dust and ashes we are and agree that in our fallen state of sin none of our theology is infallible only God and his infinite wisdom is, that way we can behold the birds and consider the lilies like Jesus told us too.
Anglican should be the biggest fields and it should be a weird blob that is kinda all over the place and yet not really in one place either.
and you guys didn't cover the Methodist circle! LOL
The correct pronunciation for ''rEconquista" is with E as in Elephant 🐘 not as in England
7th day is way too close to the center. They should be further out, and closer to the JWs, since theyre both second adventist. I laughed when i saw the actual witchcraft/nar overlap. Funnier yet if familiar with spencer smiths work
Totally. I get why 7th day Adventist and Hebrew roots are close, in they both try to appropriate Judaism, and sure Mormons call other ppl gentiles, but Mormonism is outright paganism
I think some SDAs are truly saved. I think this graph is a bit too harsh on them.
if i had two tweeks to this chart it would be to bring the roman catholicism out more so that it only border lined the universal church, and i would bring the sda further inward. here in the south there are alot of actual christian SDA members who are ignorant of there legalistic theology. great video though! keep it up.
UM, That would be stupid. The "Roman Catholic Church" is the "little c" Church in the graph. Protestants want to believe this isn't so, but in all actuality it totally is. The early Church was the Roman Catholic Church. It practiced the exact same doctrines and believed the same things. It's not somehow there was this magical little "c" Catholic Church. This graph is just an attempt at revisionist history.
We live in the age of Google, so we can easily see that this little "c" Catholic Church is actually the Roman Catholic Church.
The middle Grey circle is duth reformed, hehe
Where are the Nestorians?
man i haven't even heard of some of these. interesting conversation. messianic jews - is that what i've heard called 'jews for jesus?'
Despicable Baptists trying to trick Jews into idolatry. Atleast the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox are open about their desire to eliminate Judaism and their idolatry.
@@Noblebird02 i ll possibly not state that SO strongly, but my man you got the point
Messianic Jews are not a denomination. A Messianic Jew can be a part of any denomination, but they are commonly evangelical.
Some messianic Jews maintain Jewish traditions like Passover, but a messianic Jew is really just a Jewish Christian.
Pentecostal is not a denomination. However, there are numerous types of Pentecostal denominations (e.g., AG and Foursquare). Most of the churches within these two denominations are considerably different from the churches you might call Pentecostal/Charismatic.
Yeah I think the circle should just be charismatic and then have the heretical group connecting to the circle
@@oboylebeast I definitely agree.
Yes pentecostalism is a denomination.
I LOVE that the "Hebrew Roots" heresy is not part
Mormons don't even get a circle 😁
They get Utah instead
I know its for comedy and I am also being sarcastic, but based on these overlaps I don't know what this guy thinks comprises that central circle and as a Catholic, I think I would want to be sure to be in the non overlapping part of our circle lol.
Why is Methodism so far from Anglicanism.
Sovereign Grace should be between Presbyterian, Baptist and Charismatic
Why are the Anglicans barely catholic on this? 😭
Or barely considered Christian?
Top 10 anime crossover episodes
Someone clearly venerates Venn diagrams. 😂
You want a real "RECONQUISTA"?
Try applying John 6:52-->
and Luke 12-->
Y’all should fix it. Make a new one.
For sure RC and EO should overlap. EO is the superior branch because the preists are rarely gay and the churches haven't embraced paganism or sexual heresies.
RC should overlap with Charismatic.
Having come out of Word of Faith, the leadership are generally con men, the congregations love the Lord and have been deceived on some details.
I'm still Charismatic.
And I think you're wrong about Oneness. They're wrong and usually theologically ignorant but still confess that Jesus is God, and is the risen son and Messiah, so yeah- believers.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
The gulf between Eastern Christian theology and Western Christian theology is greater than is the division between Protestantism and Catholicism. While it's true that outwardly, Orthodoxy and Catholicism look more like each other, while Protestantism looks different, the truth is that in many subtler theological ways, Orthodoxy is quite different. This stems from the fact that the West is dominated by the theology of St. Augustine, while the East is not.
Oneness Pentecostals believe Jesus is God, but they deny the Trinity. They're Modalists, and Modalism is a heresy outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity.
The Eastern orthodox Church had to be corrected for all kinds of heresies and errors over it's history, are you crazy bro?
I wouldn’t have any overlap between the elect and the Roman Catholics, or the Orthodox Church, or Word of Faith - and why are the IFB/KJVOs marked with a rainbow? They aren’t liberal like PCUSA, UMC, or Episcopalian.