The person who put Spirit Island as their number 2, even though they certainly had an interesting take to justify it, clearly is too deep into the hobby to be able to realistically ascertain what "Easy to teach & learn" means^^.
I respect their opinion. I've personally found Spirit Island difficult to retain even after multiple plays, but we all have different perspectives about the games we play.
Yeah, it seems like maybe the Spirit Island example was more about being a game that provides a way for players to better learn a game's strategy or get better at a game- specifically without having to lose all the time.
I find Spirit Island pretty easy to teach and retain, and I taught it to my partner - whose only prior board gaming experience was Risk - on our first date. I think it definitely depends on the person, but I wouldn't actually consider it too difficult, especially if everything's at the easiest level and an experienced player is running the invaders.
Spirit Island, Arkham Horror, Obsession...this list seems more to be about favorite games that these folks enjoy teaching rather than games that are "easy to learn."
@@jameystegmaier I was commenting more on the title of the video rather than the content. I enjoyed hearing everyone's comments on these games and appreciate them taking the time to participate in the video. At the same time, I'm always on the lookout for games that "less serious" gamers can easily learn, retain, and enjoy and unfortunately, several of these titles simply won't work because the games are simply too complex. Spirit Island, for example, is rated 4.06 on BGA.
Agree with Jamey that it was very difficult to teach myself and my husband how to play Obsession with just the rulebook. Took at least an hour to just read through and get started when we borrowed it from a convention library to try it out.
Fun list. I’d include: Project L (great play-mats), Parks (intuitive icons and simple mechanisms), and Pandemic (choices are on the card, choices and simple, thematic choices). Honorable mentions: Sushi Go!, Clank!, and Vindication.
Spirit Island is a top 5 game for me and my number two coop (behind The Crew which kinda is my favorite because I LOVE to teach it and experience with new players) and I do find it very easy to retain but an absolute BEAR to teach so much so that I think I'm going to treat first games as a facilitator and running the game while aiding players rather than playing alongside them.
I usually end up running the invaders anyways from that giant invader board, so I definitely end up in a game runner role when I teach, but I still like to play. I tend to pick spirits I find don't need a ton of outside support when I'm teaching. Nobody new at my table ever picks poor Earth so I usually end up in a defensive role as Many Minds or Downpour (call me an absolute nutcase but I teach with the expansions!)
I like the learning by steps proposed by Red 7's rulebook. First you play only playing cards and changing the rules, then you add the rule that lets you buy cards sometimes and finally you add the special powers for the cards. As the game is super quick to finish, it makes much sense to add the rules progressivelly.
It's interesting to think of what might make/help people retain certain rules of different games. Though I suspect most games would be different much like any skill/talent someone might be good or bad at. One game might be easy for someone, whereas that same game could be very difficult for someone else...I suppose the "easiest" to look for, more often, would carry a stronger sense of elegance and or simplicity and ofcourse even THAT is up to interpretation.
I have over 1000 games / expansions, currently on a mission to cull 100 games per year until I get to a top 100. I refuse to buy another game unless it’s solo-able by either official rules, fan made rules, or multi-hand play. So games made with players like myself in mind, are damn near auto-buys for me. Stonemaier games has been on a roll lately so keep it up!!! Ty for all the interesting discussions as of late also :)
What does make a game easy to learn, retain, and teach? I'd like to see a design discussion about it, in general. Obviously, the sheer number of rules would make a game harder to retain. But rule complexity is a factor as well. What DOES make a rule more complex? When it refers to multiple components of game state? Other things that may make a game more difficult to learn, retain, and teach would be: Uncommon mechanisms Fiddliness (having to manipulate multiple components for an action or turn) Edge cases Other things that can make a game easier to learn, retain, and teach is: A theme that supports the mechanisms and actions, making play intuitive Well-designed UI elements like clear iconography information on components or play area A ruleset that can be easily abstracted and organized as a player aid/reference. What other things can make a game easier or harder to learn, retain, and teach?
I think that's a pretty solid list! I'd also add that the game has no rule exceptions (or, if they do, they are highlighted in the UI and are explained thematically).
Hey Jamey Thanks for videos like this and the conversation around this topic. One thing that has turned me away from forest shuffle has been comments around the end of game scoring. I hear it can be hard to track and a little confusing because there are so many ways to score points. Some even say it's a big task. Are you able to comment or let me know your thoughts around ease of scoring. Everything else about it seems like it would fit well for my family.
I hear that feedback, though it hasn't been a problem for us. The scorepad makes it easy (or at least as easy as any game that uses a scorepad for end-game calculations).
The person who put Spirit Island as their number 2, even though they certainly had an interesting take to justify it, clearly is too deep into the hobby to be able to realistically ascertain what "Easy to teach & learn" means^^.
I respect their opinion. I've personally found Spirit Island difficult to retain even after multiple plays, but we all have different perspectives about the games we play.
Yeah, it seems like maybe the Spirit Island example was more about being a game that provides a way for players to better learn a game's strategy or get better at a game- specifically without having to lose all the time.
Yeah, but seeing spirit island in the thumbnail is definitely what made me click this video haha
@@Mr_Casey12 Yep, and what made me comment, sooo...😆
I find Spirit Island pretty easy to teach and retain, and I taught it to my partner - whose only prior board gaming experience was Risk - on our first date. I think it definitely depends on the person, but I wouldn't actually consider it too difficult, especially if everything's at the easiest level and an experienced player is running the invaders.
Spirit Island, Arkham Horror, Obsession...this list seems more to be about favorite games that these folks enjoy teaching rather than games that are "easy to learn."
Agree. I've been playing Arkham Horror for a little while and still make mistakes. Expeditions is a also a game I needed a few games to get it.
And that's okay! Games that make teaching fun are valid inclusions for this category.
@@jameystegmaier I was commenting more on the title of the video rather than the content. I enjoyed hearing everyone's comments on these games and appreciate them taking the time to participate in the video. At the same time, I'm always on the lookout for games that "less serious" gamers can easily learn, retain, and enjoy and unfortunately, several of these titles simply won't work because the games are simply too complex. Spirit Island, for example, is rated 4.06 on BGA.
Agree with Jamey that it was very difficult to teach myself and my husband how to play Obsession with just the rulebook. Took at least an hour to just read through and get started when we borrowed it from a convention library to try it out.
7 Wonders Architect has been a really easy teach and learn, really popular with a wide range of ages in my family too.
Fun list. I’d include: Project L (great play-mats), Parks (intuitive icons and simple mechanisms), and Pandemic (choices are on the card, choices and simple, thematic choices). Honorable mentions: Sushi Go!, Clank!, and Vindication.
Spirit Island is a top 5 game for me and my number two coop (behind The Crew which kinda is my favorite because I LOVE to teach it and experience with new players) and I do find it very easy to retain but an absolute BEAR to teach so much so that I think I'm going to treat first games as a facilitator and running the game while aiding players rather than playing alongside them.
I usually end up running the invaders anyways from that giant invader board, so I definitely end up in a game runner role when I teach, but I still like to play. I tend to pick spirits I find don't need a ton of outside support when I'm teaching. Nobody new at my table ever picks poor Earth so I usually end up in a defensive role as Many Minds or Downpour (call me an absolute nutcase but I teach with the expansions!)
I have played Cthulhu with Scott, and it is fun, addictive, freaky and just all around amazing.
I like the learning by steps proposed by Red 7's rulebook. First you play only playing cards and changing the rules, then you add the rule that lets you buy cards sometimes and finally you add the special powers for the cards. As the game is super quick to finish, it makes much sense to add the rules progressivelly.
On the other hand, I normally don't like when longer games have a simplified version for the first play.
I really like rule layering during the teaching process!
Cascadia for me. It took me 10 minutes to learn and I've never had to read the rules again.
It's interesting to think of what might make/help people retain certain rules of different games. Though I suspect most games would be different much like any skill/talent someone might be good or bad at. One game might be easy for someone, whereas that same game could be very difficult for someone else...I suppose the "easiest" to look for, more often, would carry a stronger sense of elegance and or simplicity and ofcourse even THAT is up to interpretation.
I really like these videos that you bring such nice guests. Please, keep bringing them ❤
Absolutely!
Happy to see some love for first in flight
I have over 1000 games / expansions, currently on a mission to cull 100 games per year until I get to a top 100. I refuse to buy another game unless it’s solo-able by either official rules, fan made rules, or multi-hand play. So games made with players like myself in mind, are damn near auto-buys for me. Stonemaier games has been on a roll lately so keep it up!!! Ty for all the interesting discussions as of late also :)
Thank you! Solo is definitely a priority for all of our games (along with player counts 2-5). :)
I only played Spirit Island once (didn't care for it) and "easy to learn" is definitely NOT how I would describe it.
In this case, I think the person was saying that they enjoy teaching Spirit Island, not that it's easy to learn.
What does make a game easy to learn, retain, and teach? I'd like to see a design discussion about it, in general.
Obviously, the sheer number of rules would make a game harder to retain. But rule complexity is a factor as well. What DOES make a rule more complex? When it refers to multiple components of game state?
Other things that may make a game more difficult to learn, retain, and teach would be:
Uncommon mechanisms
Fiddliness (having to manipulate multiple components for an action or turn)
Edge cases
Other things that can make a game easier to learn, retain, and teach is:
A theme that supports the mechanisms and actions, making play intuitive
Well-designed UI elements like clear iconography
information on components or play area
A ruleset that can be easily abstracted and organized as a player aid/reference.
What other things can make a game easier or harder to learn, retain, and teach?
I think that's a pretty solid list! I'd also add that the game has no rule exceptions (or, if they do, they are highlighted in the UI and are explained thematically).
Hey Jamey Thanks for videos like this and the conversation around this topic. One thing that has turned me away from forest shuffle has been comments around the end of game scoring. I hear it can be hard to track and a little confusing because there are so many ways to score points. Some even say it's a big task. Are you able to comment or let me know your thoughts around ease of scoring. Everything else about it seems like it would fit well for my family.
I hear that feedback, though it hasn't been a problem for us. The scorepad makes it easy (or at least as easy as any game that uses a scorepad for end-game calculations).
@@jameystegmaier thanks for the reply
Only Jamie understood the brief here I think!!
Everyone came to it with a slightly different topic in mind (but still the central theme of teaching, learning, and retaining).