Jenny: If Rey wasn't raised by her parents, and she doesn't remember them, then they don't really affect her character at all...Unless they have any hereditary conditions she needs to know about JJ: Funny you should mention that...
Episode IX will just have Kylo spending all of his time in diplomatic conferences and budget meetings getting increasingly frustrated at the amount of admin involved in running a galactic empire.
Okay, kind of really want that to happen. Because then he'll go all the way crazy and start slaughtering the bureaucrats, giving us a catharsis moment for all the times we were bored with the politics while watching the preludes. Also, him having to fill forms to kill them off. He makes a move to choke this snide guy but someone else says "Supreme Leader, have you filled out a Force choke application for that?"
"But that's impossible: how will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy!?" Actually, this is a pretty poorly written piece of dialogue: the Senate (presumably) being a legislative body, they wouldn't have anything to do with running the bureaucracy, whereas the new system, wherein "the regional governors...have direct control" after the dissolution of the Senate, sounds like a purely administrative state: bureaucracy run amok, if you will.
That's exactly why this movie was a bad *episode 8*: you can't snack down all the setups and leave nothing in the middle movie of a trilogy. As a side movie all the subverting expectations could work far better.
It was a little less predictable. I watched the name, the trailers, the interview; and still wouldn't believe that they would go all the way Palpatine on this one.
I don't understand how anyone thought ep9 would be good. NOTHING was developed plot-wise in TLJ. In fact it was broken down even further and none of the setup for ep7 was explained. Total failure of a trilogy, which is sad because 7 had pieces that could have been used to make it work. Too bad TLJ was horrendously bad and nonsensical.
“Taking out that obstacle in the 2nd movie with a whole movie left to go just kinda means that the 3rd movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula.” Man I thought so too. Oof
Remember back in the aftermath of TLJ where fuckbois were complaining about inclusion in their Star Wars movies, and people who saw how good it was were excited about the prospect of what this movie would lead into... And then TROS came out and ushered all the smooth-brained babies back into the Star Wars tent with 130 minutes of nonsense?
Snakes are universal archetypal representations of evil; even people who have never seen snakes are often afraid of them and think of them as evil. These new starwars movies are being designed to be a accessible to the widest range of human experience, whereas the original trilogy was probably written specifically for a western/American audience. I don’t know anything; it’s just a theory... stop looking at me like that!
Hux was turned into a clown by Rain, the Knights of Ren had to be forced down the audience's throat in ROS, and the first order became pointless with the introduction of the Final Order. Yeah, I wish she was right.
The only logical course was to make Snoke Plageuis and not kill him in TLJ. That was the only way to tie the entire series together and make the first order relevant. I'm starting these god awful Aftermath books to figure out how the hell Disney retconned ep7 into making sense from a worldbuilding perspective.
@@Velereonics I mean, sure, it would be logical, but also, you know, extremely dumb and cringey. The issue with the new series is that right in the middle of their space wizard movie trilogy, someone did something interesting for the first time in the history of the entire series. Like she said, him being Plagueus (not gonna bother spell checking the space wizard name) or not is meaningless. Because Plagueus is not a character not even a concept, he's just a throwaway line in a even shittier movie. I mean, logical for what end? Logically, I guess they should just pander to their man-baby audience and take the critical L's, because they could keep making that nerd money.
Captain Phasma's death was just a shame, I really thought they were going to go somewhere with her and Finn. Way more disappointed about her than Snoke lol
I thought that there would be some inner joke about Phasma always coming back somehow. But 9 wasn't about the sequel trilogy, so they were probably happy they didn't need to deal with Phasma. If she was alive, there would be some random battle with Original trilogy's Boba Fett manhandling her or something.
@@davidv4018 imagine if they dedicated 30 minutes to a b plot about phasma surviving poe twice and building a vendetta, even if her presence was weak in the first 2 that could have been interesting and fleshed out a.) their relationship and b.) the context behind those previous scenes. i want to see Punished Phasma who's more preoccupied with killing Poe than helping the First Order, accidentally tying into the A plot in some interesting way
"The Emperor was just a Two-Dimensional obstacle to be defeated, and taking out that obstacle with a whole 'nother movie left to go just kinda means the third movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula..." Jenny, JAY JAY would like a word with you...
TheKhannunisT As much as I disagree with the people who call him "Jar-Jar Abrams" on much about the rest of the sequal trilogy, he earned that nickname with Rise of Skywalker. It literally feels like all of these "dumbest reasons" wrote Rise of Skywalker
William Avitt I liked Force Awakens when it came out, but looking where everything lead I can see your point. Last Jedi still holds up quite well as a stand alone for me, and sadly it will probably never get a proper sequal because I know I'm in a minority (that seems to be slightly more people than I thought) that absolutely adored the "Game of Thronsification" of Star Wars for the ideas presented and thought it felt like Rise of Skywalker was written by the dumbest haters of The Last Jedi. They basically retconned everything I loved, with no explanation. I wish there was a Rian Johnson version of episode 9, it would be epic to see a proper sequal to Last Jedi.
Someone needs to get those nerf herding snakes off his nerf herding spaceship. I am a casual SW fan, so I don't know any other canon swears... other than "frack"
My biggest problem is that when Snoke was threatening Rey he said something like "I'll kill you with the cruelest stroke" and it made me laugh because 'stroke' rhymes with Snoke.
Jenny: "Taking out that obstacle in the second movie with a whole movie left to go means the third movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula" JJ Abrams: "Hold My Beer"
In an interview JJ said: "I went a little bit crazy on this one". Adam Driver said "JJ came up with something unique and rare". I am still trying to understand what they meant.
Now look how the Star Wars universe is looking sense the cast is no longer under Disney's NDA.. LOL John Boyega and Daisy Ridley are telling the truth about how they really feel about being in the Disney Trilogy SHIT SHOW. HAHAHA
@@andmicbro1 JJ should only get to make 1 movie per franchise. That retreading of nostalgia can be engaging for a first installment, but gets tiresome quickly if you don't mix it up for the sequel. Star Trek(2009) and Force Awakens were both a lot of fun and rekindled my interest in their respective franchises. Into Darkness and Rise of Skywalker both took that good will and squandered it with shallow retreads because neither film seems to realize that once you rebuild that familiar foundation we want to see what new thing you can build on top of it.
This trilogy makes me sad. Not because it's bad but man the universe just feels so beaten down at this point. I mean right now it kind of feels like the galaxy has no official government. Theres just a bunch of neo imperials and five rebels repeatedly punching each other.
Star Wars its just a setting, you can make the next movie 1000 years after with another state of the galaxy. I don't think they are gonna continue with these characters (actors), so there is no ancor to a timeline.
@@albertskoften1452 The rebels aren't anarchists though, the Rebel Alliance was structured as a government alongside its military force during 4-6. Then they formed the New Republic (which is seen a little in Mandalorian). Their senate was what Starkiller Base annihilated in 7. There's no government oppositional to the FO after that, but 7-9 only took place over the course of like two years, so I'd say it's fair to give them time to rebuild.
your speech about snoke dying and drawing parallels to the emperor in the OT makes me feel even sadder that all JJAbrams could do in ROTS was bring back the emperor
@@KRobinson-ko1ne Yes, that would have been the time to remove him. I don't know if you agree with me here, but IMO removing him in episode 8 eternalizes his poor character.
@@SirBlackReeds this jab at legacy fans looks real stupid now. I don't know her but she must have thought she was on the right side of history with this video.
First time I read the word "Sandtrooper" and I've been watching Star Wars for the last 23 years. The Stormtroopers on Tattooine are just regular Stormtroopers with a shoulder pad that denotes rank and an ammo belt over the shoulder. Meaning they look like the regular army grunt and carry stuff they need in the environment they operate in. At the time it was believed that all Stormtroopers everywhere look like the run-of-the-mill frowny face skeleton man. The first big new Trooper redesign was the Snowtrooper. Again, sensible decision within the universe. Same for Scout Troopers. Stormtrooper Executioners now are a whole different beast. They are not refitted for the environment, they are just guys with a stripe on their helmet and carry an axe. When, on the open battlefield, do you need an executioner to hand? You can just shoot deserters on the spot and you don't have the time or calm to stage a public execution. Why does a guy whose only job it is to swing an axe need a suit of armor? Is he afraid his undergarments might get dirty from the blood? But oh, the axe cauterizes the wound so it wouldn't matter. It's like Executioners simply wear their parade armor, but that is usually more interesting to look at than your regular work clothes with an additional stripe.
They are definitely called Sandtroopers, check wookieepedia if you have to. And I'm not disputing that the executioner design was made to sell toys, but so was a lot of stuff in Star Wars from the beginning. They may have an extended role that we don't know yet.
The Wookiepedia says "Desert Stormtrooper (also called sandtrooper)" on the Legends side (i.e. what they were called before the Disney buyout). I assume sandtrooper used to be an unofficial denomination, like the "Scarif Trooper" is also known as "shoretrooper" among fans because it works as a pun.
I don't understand how you couldn't dislike TLJ, there is not a single scene I can remember that's enjoyable. It would be the throne room fight scene, but the choreography falls apart really quickly if you actually look at it.
To your smaller point about the executioner and why there is a different design to them, the reason is toys. And that’s not a criticism, it’s been that way since 1977.
I'm kind of ashamed to admit how much I dug Snoke's Hugh Hefner style in this movie. He just seems like a guy who spent way too much time playing on god mode to take anything *that* seriously anymore.
That's great and all, but I still don't know who the fuck Snoke was. How did he become the head of the First Order? What are his motivations beyond being a Palpatine knockoff? How did he get his powers in a franchise where the Rule of Two exists? I mean, these are all pretty important points that the movie just skips over in order to give us a clever reveal.
That was before there was an entire canon and mythology invented. Also, the original trilogy only mentioned the Emperor and then introduced him in the 3rd film. These movies had Snoke as a character, set him up, and then didn't deliver much on him because you could see they were just making shit up from movie to movie. @@veronicablake5389
Could you imagine how it would be if Luke had killed Ren? How's my son, Leia asks. I was worried that he was going to the dark side, so i cut him in half in his sleep.
@@timy9197 That depends. Do you believe that thoughts are the same as actions? Do you believe thinking about committing a crime is the same as committing a crime? I sincerely never hope you get in a position of power if that's the case.
Similar to the snake thing, I always thought Han's "then I'll see you in HELL!" from Empire was jarring as there's never any indication (at least in the films) that people in Star Wars believe in any kind of discrete afterlife, aside from Force Ghosts, much less a hell.
The way I see it, we're supposed to treat the use of English language in Star Wars the way we treat Tolkien's narration of the events in Middle Earth: a loose translation. It's simply a filter that replaces a galactic common language's nuances with their closest equivalent in the English language, to help us better understand the material. No translation is perfectly coherent to its source material, especially when the source material appears this alien to the audience, but as long as it clarifies the meaning, even by drawing less than fully proper comparisons, it's done its job.
And in Empire, on Dagobah, there were actual snakes. Not “space snakes with a cool space name.” Literal California king snakes. Womp rats have had that name for forty plus years and other than maybe the one word put before “rat,” there’s nothing especially extraterrestrial about it.
@@MrSirhasArrived That's an unneeded explanation that I can see a hack sci-fi writer come up with. "Hell" has always been just a generic term for a terrible place. Why can't it just be the same here?
@@gladspooky9455 "Hell" as used on Earth is just a generic term for a terrible place. Not in a galaxy long ago, and far far away. Also the greatness of the original trilogy is sometimes seen as editing saving the movies from a "hack sci-fi" writer as seen what happened when GL had free reign in the prequels.
13:50 Can you imagine someone watching a sports anime and being like "This entire tournament the team participated in was pointless because they were eventually eliminated!"?
@@greywolf7577 No, because an anime is a story that someone plans out and chooses how it goes. So someone might criticize the writer for making the choice to write a whole arc that ends in failure. You know what I mean? I'm trying to explain as best as I can, but it's hard to do in a text format.
@@elise_g There are sports movies where the team you're meant to root for loses at the end. The message could be interpreted as, "It's okay if you lose as long as you tried your best" or "Sometimes life isn't fair" or any number of things. My point is that there's more than one way to resolve a plot thread, although there's barely any variation in the sports movie/anime genres, to the point that having the team lose at the end is almost as cliché as having them win. Ultimately, I don't think plot beats and twists matter as much as the emotional arcs of the characters, something I felt the Last Jedi was better at than most Star Wars films. A sports movie or anime can be as predictable as they come and still tell a compelling story. Even so, we get numbed to seeing the same story repeatedly, so filmmakers try to surprise us so that we can experience emotions we weren't prepared for. Your criticism boils down to, "It defied conventions" but you don't explain why that makes the Last Jedi worse in context.
In retrospect, I feel like if we got a complete Rian Johnson trilogy, or a complete J.J. Abrams trilogy, it would have been better as a whole. They don't mix well. I'm fine with Johnson subverting expectations and I like Abram's mystery box when they pay off, but the best of each of their approaches got mangled by the other. I loved that Rey's parents were nobodies (until they weren't). I love that Luke defeated Kylo with finesse and pacifism. I didn't mind necessarily that Snoke was killed off, but it did highlight how disconnected the sequel trilogy is from the original trilogy. There's so much hand waving about the gap between the two trilogies, that I almost feel like it would work better if they just set it a few hundred years in the future. Did Luke, Leia, Han, any of it really matter? Did Rey need to be Palpy's grandaughter? They clearly wanted to do a total reset of the universe, so why muddy the waters with the original trilogy crap?
That’s just it, the real issue was this absurd hand-off strategy between movies. If Rian or JJ had control of all three movies at least they would be internally coherent. This trilogy was just a jumble that reminded me of that writing exercise where you write one paragraph of a story and pass it around and get a hilarious mad-libs style story by the end.
Utterly disagree. If JJ did the whole thing it would have been just as bad probably. Rian would have done an awesome job. Also the whole "they don't mix well" is only true from JJ's side, while Rian did a great job following up ep7 (done by JJ), and might have done a good end movie for the trilogy.
EXACTLY. This is exactly what I was thinking. JJ tried to make it very similar to the original trilogy and Rian tried to break the mold, and those two ideas don’t go well together
I've seen this argument so many times, and I still don't understand it. It was already pretty well established that force users can come from anywhere. Literally the only family connection that was ever shown as meaningful in that regard was between Luke and Anakin. Anakin himself was a nobody, he started as a slave on a backwater sand planet. Why was Rey being a nobody treated as such a revolutionary new idea for the franchise?
@@swagromancer Anakin wasn’t a nobody. He was born from the force impregnating his mother. He was literally a child of prophecy. That’s as opposite of a nobody as you can get.
@@Rhewin Only if that is somehow manifested within the context of the universe. Which it wasn't. He didn't gain any special powers or unexplained abilities, he didn't receive special privileges or extra training, most of the Jedi council members didn't even believe that he was indeed the chosen one. Qui-Gon Jinn believed it, and Obi-Wan sort of believed it because he wanted to honour his master's wishes, and that's it. As far as everybody else was concerned, Anakin was a former slave from the desert who missed his mum. The prophecy served as a reason for Qui-Gon to take him in. Everything else could have happened to anybody.
@@Rhewin That's a bit of a problem, then. Fact is, the idea that powerful force users can come from anywhere was nothing new and groundbreaking. Not even the idea that there's a fast and easy way to absolute power. It's just that in the past, that was reserved for the bad guys.
Snoke never looked like a gungan. And Jar Jar is a bumbling idiot who's always been on the heroes' side. I'm actually glad he's not Jar Jar. It would ruin both characters even more. I never liked the whole Darth Jar Jar theory.
The darth jar jar theory is the only reason the prequels are watchable at all. Its kind of poetic that the character who stands for everything wrong with the series could secretly be the ultimate bad guy. It doesnt make the movies any better, but it makes them strangely funny.
I agree that many of these criticisms are silly. But I still had major problems with this film. All of my issues can be summed up into 2 main categories: dropped story threads and scaling issues. The movie is pretty decent as a standalone, but as a sequel it pretty much breaks the internal logic of the universe. That the Republic, for example, has somehow been overrun off-screen by the First Order after their main weapon was destroyed, to the point that only the teeny tiny Resistance is left to launch a counterstrike. It's such a ludicrous prospect that it breaks my suspension of disbelief. The First Order isn't the Empire; they're interlopers without an established foothold in the galaxy. The destruction of the Death Star could be mostly shrugged off by the Empire because they were already entrenched. The First Order shouldn't have that luxury. At no point did I actually BELIEVE that the conflict was important. It felt entirely unmoored and therefore low-stakes. Like it belonged in an episode of Rebels, rather than a movie. Then there are story threads like Finn's hinted Force sensitivity, Luke leaving behind a puzzle specifically to be found in case of an emergency, the Knights of Ren -- just to name a few. Twists at the expense of cohesive storytelling is bad writing. It reminds me a bit of the anime Blood-C.
It's like graffitying some really interesting tags over an well made tapestry. No matter how great or profound the graffiti in its own right, it's still vandalism.
decentradical Exactly. That's a really good metaphor. The story this film told wasn't bad. It just barely provided any payoff whatsoever to the setup from TFA. Johnson evidently just dropped the story threads that didn't interest him personally. Sometimes even outright contradicting them, as is the case with his handling of Luke.
Very Serious He left behind piecemeal directions to what he believed to be the first Jedi Temple, IIRC. Finding the pieces was an integral part of the plot of TFA.
+UniCom Star Wars is all about the dank memes. Tatooine is Darude - Sandstorm The Empire is All Your Base Are Belong to Us R2-D2 is Good Guy Greg Chewbacca is ERMAHGERD!!! The Force is Double Rainbow Episodes 1-3 are Rick Roll Anakin is Bad Luck Brian Palpatine is Scumbag Steve Jar Jar Binks is me_irl Darth Maul is Grumpy Cat Mos Eisley cantina is Keyboard Cat Obi Wan Kenobi is Actual Advice Mallard Yoda is "but none of my business, that is" Kermit Ghost Yoda frying the Jedi texts is Cooking by the Book Old Luke's power level is *OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAND!!!!* Anakin going "NOOOOOOOOO" in Episode 3 is Dramatic Chipmunk Porgs are Doge Rey is Idiot Nerd Girl Kylo Ren is Insanity Wolf George Lucas is "Can't make a bad Star Wars if you don't make Star Wars"
About the Poe and Holdo thing...I recall there being a part in the movie when he even tells her she doesn't have to tell him the plan, and begs her to tell him whether or not there IS a plan. And she doesn't answer. So he is left to think that they don't have a plan, as their people keep dying and they're just sitting there not being allowed to do anything. Wasn't that how he convinced others to join the mutiny? People were losing their minds sitting there and not being allowed to help or know anything about what's going on. If Holdo had been even slightly competent, she would have told people that she has a plan and give them a clue as to why she can't tell them, ie it will jeopardize the succession if that intel reaches the wrong ears on this ship. Because people were desperate and uninformed of anything like that, they were willing to jump on board with *someone they actually knew* who was doing something. As for the movie as a whole, it just felt so... splintered and confused. The characters that should have formed the new Golden Trio, if you will, were split apart instead, going further and further away from each other rather than forming their own group dynamic, which they could take on new, creative adventures, as Rey explores where she falls between the Light and Dark. Finding her place in all this, as the trailer said. Finn had only sort of an arc before it was bashed to the ground by Rose, literally, and for the most comical, baffling non-reason. I liked Poe's ark in terms of theme, but like most of the film, it wasn't executed well. :( I really, really wanted to like this film. I even kept saying "it was pretty good! well it was.. it was okay! except this thing... and that thing... oh and that thing was so ridiculous--" etc. For the duration of the movie I was frustrated and waiting for the Story to start, telling myself that "it'll pick up soon." Ultimately, it had good IDEAS but the execution of those ideas wasn't good, at least not to me, and that's what makes it all the more frustrating... the lost potential.
Kind of late to the party, but has anyone considered the fact that Luke probably has severe PTSD after everything he went through in the OT and that when he saw that everything which caused him to suffer so much could possibly repeat itself he wasn't exactly thinking so logically?
Definitely! How telling is it that this is the most sensitive of all Star Wars movies in terms of character building, the most nuanced and emotionally realistic, and all the fanboys who are disconnected from their own feelings and empathy are throwing tantrums about it "making no sense"??
@@matrixman124 Well, it wouldn't have been, but TFA explicitly set up Rey's heritage as a huge mystery. So of course that invited speculation. TLJ could have done literally anything with that. Instead they dropped it and did nothing. Great.
@@matrixman124 Yeah but how was that a twist when that's literally how the force has always worked? If that made the story more compelling to you, that's great, and I really don't want to detract from that. But I don't get it. Force sensitivity has always been random. Force sensitive children were discovered in all corners of the galaxy, coming from all walks of life, and taken in for training. The Jedi didn't all just train their own children, especially since they weren't even supposed to _have_ children. From my perspective, TLJ didn't break any new ground here, but so many people seem to think it did, and that's just baffling to me.
It’s weird that so many people thought we couldn’t get further explanation of Snoke’s backstory once he was dead. But look at the terrible, nonsensical explanation we did get from Rise of Skywalker. Be careful what you wish for.
I think a lot of my issues, not just with this but other media you mentioned like Game of Thrones, comes from the fact that *clever* isn't always enough to be *good* - with Snoke especially, I understand why people appreciate the subversion, but I'm still left wondering why we've now had two films with a completely pointless villain. Snoke felt like Darth Maul to me, just this non-character whose personality and motives I don't even understand, and it's difficult for me to enjoy an unexpected outcome for a character I was never invested in in the first place. I remember you saying the same about Rogue One, actually, and that's how I feel about a lot of characters in these new Star Wars films. I don't dislike Snoke being killed, I dislike Snoke being killed before I even understood why he was in the story. It feels like he was just there to make Kylo Ren a Sith, but that's not a character, a freaking holocron of spooky Sith secrets could have done that. So many characters feel like functions rather than people. I liked the Rey and Luke stuff, though. That all felt better established and 'earned'.
Cole Pfeiffer the original trilogy had 3 directors. It should’ve been 1 VISION. Lucas had a plan and vision for the entire original trilogy, and it shows. No plan for this trilogy, it also shows.
Markus Sarén actually he did, he tried to fit the story of Empire into the first film and couldn’t do it. He had Empire’s story ready during the filming of A New Hope and totally planned on making the sequel even if A New Hope wasn’t successful. The meat of the trilogy is in Empire with Vader being Luke’s father so he already had planned Vader’s return to the light and killing the Emperor. The only story beats that were made up were everything in Jedi that didn’t revolve around Luke and Vader...as in all of the stuff that everyone criticizes the most from the original trilogy...Ewoks & Endor, Leia being Luke’s sister, etc. The screenplay to Empire wasn’t written by Lucas so of course there were elements made up organically as it went along like Leia’s and Solo’s relationship, but “Story by George Lucas” is credited in all 3 films. There isn’t a single “Story by” credit in any of the films in the new trilogy...oh wait, except Rise of Skywalker which has FOUR “Story by” credits...🤮 no wonder it felt like multiple films crammed into one.
It's sad that watching this video gets me excited all over again about an Episode IX that will never exist because JJ was too afraid to try something new.
Yazzan Elhajji Because they tried to cram so much in to wrap everything up that we had almost no time to process what was going on. There’s like 5 movies worth of plot in The Rise of Skywalker.
You should actually read the reports of all the crap disney pulled on jj. He wrote outlines for 8 and 9 that were thrown out. They threw out the scripts from george lucas also. He asked to make this movie a two parter to make a cohesive story. They settled on a 3 hour movie instead then cut the movie to 2h 30. They forced him to make scenes to sell toys. This movie was doomed before it was started. There is a reason the other director left.
LindsayIsExcited - Perhaps in that galaxy a falcon is an ugly flat animal that looks like a thick Earth flounder, except it expels gasses from the rear to fly, and the ship was named for the resemblance?
I was more interested in going back and seeing that essentially all 10 of these "worst reasons" for disliking The Last Jedi seem to exactly the things that the people creating TROS went and "fixed"... The Last Jedi was as close to a masterpiece as it was possible to make as a mainline Star Wars film. It was flawed, certainly, but it was bolder and better than anything before, and definitely since. It was incredibly disappointing to see all these complaints Jenny laid out 2 years ago and thoroughly redressed for their awfulness, knowing what ep9 turned out to be.
TLJ starts with a crank call, doesn't understand a fundamental basic law of physics, makes both the First Order and the Resistance comically incompetent and tries to see you on the idea that tyrannical facist organizations like the First Order or the Empire didn't control their own military industrial complex. Individually, some of the ideas were interesting, but the middle film of a Star Wars trilofy and the 8th of 9 films in a saga about a specific family and their impact on the galaxy and mythos as a whole, it didn't work.
I take issue with you Red Wedding comparison. Subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations is *NOT* good. The Red Wedding worked because G.R.R. Martin, and the showrunners, had developed Robb and Catelyn. We grew to love them. And when the Red Wedding happened, it was shocking because we cared. Not to mention the fact that killing them off changed the story completely and opened up new doors for interesting storylines and character arcs. With Snoke however, people weren’t sad or happy. They were disappointed because they hadn’t developed him at all, and his death changed nothing. Nothing important anyway. The First Order still exists and now it’s run by another Supreme Leader. Great. Exciting.
you're spot on. He were like a character from a sitcom whose actor happened to need to quit the show so they killed his character off or let him skip town. Super pointless & dumb...
Of course Kylo Ren killing Snoke changes the story. It opens the door for Kylo Ren, the more interesting villain, to be the big bad this time rather than a repeat of Palpatine. That's not "subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations," but a substantial difference in plot and characterization for Kylo. I'm slightly astonished that some fans wanted a developed backstory for Snoke. To me it's obvious that he's a certain class of character that may be flesh and blood but is meant to feel almost like a vision, evil spirit, devil, or nightmare figure--like Palpatine in the original trilogy (an apparition of the dark side with no developed backstory), the Joker in the Dark Knight (an apparition of chaos with no developed back story), Anton Chigurh in No Country for Old Men (an apparition of death with no developed backstory), or The Pin in Rian Johnson's own Brick (an apparition of a criminal underworld just beneath the surface of polite society). The figure is supposed to have an otherworldly and nightmarish screen presence, as if they came from the abyss; explaining their backstory isn't essential for this kind of character and can even ruin the effect. We might not care for Snoke (or Palpatine, or the Joker, or Chigurh, or The Pin) in the way we care for the sympathetic characters killed in the Red Wedding. But we do see Snoke--a vision of the dark side's consummate, overconfident lying--unexpectedly defeated (and replaced with a different kind of villain). To me it's an interesting effect, like a nightmare that has indomitable power while you're asleep, but is ended swiftly by waking. The point Jenny is making is that just because something subverts expectations or fan sensibilities (I thought Snoke was going to be the big bad! I crave a backstory for Snoke! Rey needs to be a Skywalker for my Star Wars experience to be complete!) doesn't mean it's bad.
+Devynn Hageman If you read my comment and/or watched the video, I made a lot of points she didn't make, especially with regard to certain type of character (Palpatine in the original trilogy, the Joker in the Dark Knight, Chigurh in No Country for Old Men, The Pin in Brick) that doesn't have a developed backstory because it's unnecessary, or the least important part about how they function. +Flynn42z Why is Kylo Ren not interesting as a villain? He's an unstable combination of contrasts (composure vs. rage, sociopathy vs. vulnerability, formidable vs. incompetent, subservience to the past vs. forging his own way, even ugly vs. handsome) such that it's unclear which traits will dominate in a given scene or in the end. While Rey's fate is not clear to her as she lacks a legend to train her or parents with a pedigree in the Force (since she lacks easy answers about her "place in all this," she must chose her own way), Kylo Ren's fate is not clear because although he has Skywalker blood his inner turmoil could send him down different paths. The two are similarly alone in their struggles to find their meaning, and hence understand and are vulnerable to each other in a certain sense. In TLJ we see Kylo side with "forgetting the past" to forge his own way, and what isn't interesting about a villain wanting to scrap the First Order and form a new empire with Rey? Is the Joker not having a backstory in The Dark Knight a "plot hole"? Is Chigurh not having a backstory in No Country for Old Men a "plot hole"? Is Palpatine not having a backstory in the original trilogy a "plot hole"? The original trilogy actually does have a bunch of *real* plot holes and events that don't make any sense but I forgive it because it's a fairy tale in space with a lot of dream logic, not a crime thriller. As for "most" long time Star Wars fans hating the movie, I don't believe anyone has actually counted. I know a bunch of Star Wars fans who enjoyed the movie and appreciated the very things some fans complained about. My mother has been a Star Wars fan since the time of the original trilogy, has read a lot of the Expanded Universe books (I was introduced to the EU through her little personal library), and she liked TLJ. Surely TLJ is more polarizing than it could have been, as it tries new things and had reveals that some fans didn't want, but as Oscar Wilde said, "Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital." You cite "Lack of story" and "uninteresting characters," but I read a lot of books, and watch a lot of movies and TV shows that have far more sophisticated plots, characters, and themes than any Star Wars movies (including original trilogy), which--like LotR, or Harry Potter-is a fairly simplistic tale of good and evil. But I still like Star Wars, LotR, and Harry Potter; and found TLJ's story, characters, and themes surprisingly good for Star Wars. If you didn't like it, you're of course entitled to your opinion. But many of the complaints I find quite ornery, and just as easily stated by critics of the original trilogy. "Lack of story, uninteresting characters and all the dumb things" was basically the argument of the critic John Simon (contra Siskel and Ebert) to claim that the original trilogy was low grade stuff for children that makes children dumber than they need to be (video footage of their exchange is on UA-cam). In his 1977 review Simon charged episode 4 of "story, characters, and dialogue of overwhelming banality," "trite characterization and paltry verbiage," and "Star Wars will do very nicely for those lucky enough to be children or unlucky enough never to have grown up." If you can show that such criticisms as his are unfair or too cranky, I believe that I can show the same for TLJ. The movie has flaws and messy bits but it didn't cause me to not like the movie as a whole, and some of its elements that I found questionable or weird at first started to add up to me and improve the longer I thought about them.
The comparison to the Red Wedding is not good at all. The Red Wedding is there to subvert many tropes, including that of the young, dashing, good king trying to avenge his familly and shows that actions have consequences. The Red Wedding takes about 2 seasons and 2 books to build up and is a direct response to the actions of the characters. We know nothing about Snoke. It's not even a good bait and switch. His death and the manner of it came out of left field but with nothing to support it.
Also The Red Wedding is good because it means something in the grand scheme of things as well as from an emitonal level. That's how you use shocks. Snoke's death gives us nothing. The First Order is still rolling, Kylo is still a bitch and we don't give a shit about Snoke since he has like 10 minutes of screentime.
Oh my god, thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth - I was ready to type out quite a comment explaining why Snoke's death is nothing like The Rains of Castamere.
The Reins of Castamere is a whole nother debacle where Tywin wiped off the face of the earth 2 entire vassal families for trying to undermine Lannister rule and still managed to have good PR about it. The song of the name you just quoted was played during the Red Wedding because it symbolises Lannister domination and reminds everyone who's boss in Tywin's eyes.
But going back to Jenny's point. Shock for the sake of shock is not a good device nor it is good writing. And unexpected events do not give narrative satisfaction just because they're different. You need to take the time to actually understand and show an audience why a trope is a trope and what you're trying to achieve by deconstructing it. You don't just hang it on the ceiling and shoot it in the head.
@@2012CBJD I liked the Prequels even before the Sequel films. The Sequels went out of their own way to let me down. Hard to even call them sequels, if anything they are more like a soft reboot of the original Trilogy but horribly wrong.
@@bogzbiny RIGHT? I rewatched the Attack of the Clones a few months ago and it's even worse than I remembered, I feel like I'm in the fucking Twilight Zone with everyone suddenly claiming the prequels are amazing now. They're not, I've seen them with my own two eyes! I know what I saw, damn it!
The difference between Game of Thrones and the sequel trilogy isn't in the extent to which they subvert expectations. The difference is one is character-driven and written well, and the other one decidedly isn't.
Exactly. Game of Thrones can pull the rug out from under you all day because you love and care about the characters. It's a huge shock when we see what happens to Ned, and then much later to Rob, but it all feels like it makes sense in the context of the world. This movie just screams at us "LUKE IS A MURDERER" without showing us how he got to that point. It's an enormous retcon of the character that makes no sense, in the context of this movie or the grand scheme of things. This is a character we all watched redeem his father, something that the galaxy believed was impossible. And now he's willing to murder his nephew in his sleep because he had a momentary lapse in judgement? Terrible writing.
It's funny how the top comment here makes a joke about her being a disney shill for the likes and the presents from big cinema. yet that actually is true and what she is.
Yeah there were clues and set up spanning three books before the red wedding, including prophesies and plenty of foreshadowing. These Disney dumbasses led by Kathleen Kennedy and her mostly female story crew were too busy congratulating themselves on adding diversity, that they didn't even plan out the major plot arcs of the three movies. That is just shitty lazy writing to the nth degree. They need to be fired, and this chicks video was mostly retarded. Go cuddle your stuffed Porg like a little kid, while the rest of us will stop paying for this bullshit product.
I think some Star Wars fans don't care about the narrative of the actual films, they just want more and more complex trivia to memorise and obsess over.
@@timy9197 And that the prequels never exist, or at least aren't so obsessed with the minutiae. We don't care about midichlorians, we don't wanna know what a clone war is, we didn't need to know about fucking *_trade routes._*
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 I dunno, I have to respect a guy who goe,s "Time to make a prequel to my space adventure, lets make it about trade routes!" Like, it's gutsy at least
I'm absolutely convinced Phasma can't be dead. I mean, a literal exploding planet didn't kill her, the Hound didn't kill her... what's space got on either of those?
Luke could not kill Vader if he tried? He had Vader on the ground and literally disarmed in return of the Jedi. He could have easily killed him then but chose not to.
If he had killed him like that he would have fallen to the dark side that is why he stopped and choose not to. He did try to kill him in Empire before he knew he was his father and he failed getting his hand chopped.
I used to think this chick had some knowledge...after this video I realized she is just another shill defending this corporate star wars so she can get her precious "premiere tickets" for free. Sad when people sell out.
Luke had a fleeting second where he believed he should kill Kylo Ren because of what he did, and then ditched the idea, I'm not sure why people think all doubts about your philosophies in life dissapear at the first sign of success. Also an addendum, Luke didn't have any real connection to Kylo other than his best friend's kid, throughout RoTJ Luke talks about bringing his "father" back. He didn't turn himself in just because some random guy fell to the Dark Side, he wanted to save his dad.
The Palpatine/Snoke comparison isn't really valid.. We knew Palpatine had at least 3 Episodes of history. Snoke however is completely MIA for Episodes 1-6 and just eats a Saber in 8 with not even the slightest hint of backstory (unless they do a Snoke spinoff.. I guess?)
It's perfectly valid. When the OT was released between 77-83, there was hardly any form of exposition to establish how or why he came to power; audiences just accepted the fact that he was this big, two-dimensional baddy and that was good enough. Only with the prequels and other extended universe building through other canon did we learn everything about him. The point is that everyone can give a free pass to the complete lack of character building for Palpatine in the OT, and yet tear Snoke apart for the exact same thing.
Palpatine probably got a free pass because there was no context for where his power could have come from. No one knew anything at all about before his rise, so there was no interest or confliction about his rise to power. Snoke on the other hand is living in a world with 6-7 movies and a tv series all detailing the world before his rise. It's a lot more relevant than it was for Palpatine. Fair enough if you don't think it's important, but I do think it's very different.
We didn't need backstory for the Emperor because we didn't see the setup for the war in the original trilogy. When you set a story after it, the audience expect some explanation of how things came to be after the heroes won, such as how the first order came to power, where Snoke came from and who he is. They haven't fulfilled these things, Snoke's death was not a clever bait and switch playing on our expectations based on character and events, it played on our expectations based on the expectation of information we had not yet received. The surprise wasn't earned, it was lazy.
adsjj1 Its fine that they haven’t fully explained Snoke and the first order’s rise to power in this movie,the story isn’t over yet. I feel like people forget that this is a preset trilogy and we still have another movie to go. They aren’t just making this up as they go along the story has been generally outlined for years now and the creators have had in mind where they want this trilogy to go. So maybe they were planning from the beginning to save the Snoke and the first order’s rise to power explanation for episode 9, we don’t know we have to wait and see. My point is the story isn’t done and not knowing Snokes back story right now doesn’t make this a bad movie or take away from his death. He is purposely designed to be a two dimensional character cause what’s important about him is not who he is but what his presence means for Kylo Ren(mainly) and for other characters . Also just cause Snoke is dead now doesn’t mean we won’t find out anything new about him. We the audience don’t know his back story but the characters do, so there could easily be a scene where it’s discussed, Snoke doesn’t have to b alive for that to happen. As for explaining the first order’s rise it was kinda already explained in TFA( just not that well). The resistance was started because the republic wasn’t taking the threat of the first order seriously enough or something like that. So when TFA starts it seems to suggest that the first order isn’t controlling things to the same extent as the empire was in the original trilogy. The empire was all that was in power, but in TFA the republic is still around while the first order is gaining power. Then the first order blows up the republic, which kinda cements this power grab. So I think now the first order is all there is. TFA kinda hints to these things as like an introduction. TLJ puts things on hold in regards to explaining the war going on in order for us to get to know the characters better. And hopefully episode 9 will bring it all around with more details as to the first order’s motivations and how that affects the characters. Keep in mind too that too much explaining can be bad. This movie is trying to focus on it’s characters and having the plot grind to a halt so that someone can sit down and explain in detail Snokes backstory doesn’t add anything or affect the characters in any emotional, personal, or thoughtful way. It only serves the audience (who just wanted their silly fan theories to be true) and not the overall story. Which is the point of a movie, to tell a story. Too much explaining and exposition if not careful will just turn this into a fictional documentary, just a visual list of facts about a made up universe. I’m sorry but that’s kinda boring and I’m not sure people realize that that’s basically what they are asking for when they complain about a lack of “backstory” in this movie
Rey's parents being nobodies was honestly the most unique thing they did. God please don't let them change that, the most cliche thing possible would be to make her a Skywalker or a Princess or some crap like that. Also, it shows you that the force belongs to everyone, not just a few elites.
Yeah, a Jedi being a nobody is so unique and different. It's like, we can finally have a cool story where a literal nobody like, oh I don't know, a moisture farmer on some backwater planet becomes a legendary Jedi! Ah man, that would be SO. COOL.
The force belonging to everyone was, I thought, the most important part of TLJ. The galaxy seemed to be headed to full-on class war in the next movie. My main fear is, JJ is not competent enough to pull that off. Lost taught us that he shouldn't be allowed to finish stories, even the ones he began.
@@Jimmymatthewb The Force has always been for everyone. The Jedi were never allowed to procreate, so they would search for Force-sensitive babies to train as Jedi. The Skywalker lineage was an aberration because Anakin had children with Padme.
Plus they're eventually going to catch those animals again anyway. Saving the animals was a complete waste of time. It was just there to push for animals rights.
The reason no one cared about who the Emperor was in the original trilogy was because he didn't play a major role - he was just a story telling element in the first movie and didn't even become relevant until the 2nd and 3rd so there was time to build up his character, he didn't really need a back-story. Snoke however, was responsible for turning Kylo to the dark-side, founding the First-Order and was made a major player from the start of this new trilogy - just having "some guy" corrupt one of the most powerful Jedi's kin isn't good story telling.
Spot on. Its like this chick has only seen The Force Awakens and no other Star Wars movies ever. or she's brainwashed into blatantly loving this new movie.
Jenny, you don't understand! If snoke had said he was Darth plaguis, mace windu, and or jar jar binks, that would have validated my childhood of watching revenge of the Sith 10,000 times.
I think the revenche of the sith fans will be happy enough now:"the dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unatural.
@@Keihryon So the fans hate almost all of the movies? Because if we're going by the fans' thoughts, the only good star wars movies were the first three and that anything that came after that is sh***t. Spinoffs, sequels and the prequels are all included
@@techno639 For the movies, yeah. But there is hours of other Star Wars material that is adored by fans. KOTOR, the game and the comic series. Rogue Squadron, the books, comics and games. The Jedi Knight series...etc. The difference between what i listed and the shitty movies? Good story telling.
@@Keihryon Its just that star wars started out as a movie and the most popular side of sw is the movies which is ironic because around 70% of star wars movies are hated by it's fans
A couple of notes... 1. Kylo Ren is a more interesting character after TLJ than he was before. That said, he's by no means "unpredictable." If anything, it's pretty obvious how he'll react in just about any scenario. If he gets his way, he'll remain calm and stoic. If not, he'll lash out like a petulant child. 2. "Going around blowing things up in an X-Wing isn't the solution to every problem." Except, that's exactly what kept the Resistance alive long enough for their eventual plan of escape to succeed. Had Poe not taken out that Dreadnaught (I'll get to that disaster in a moment), then the First Order would have had a ship capable of taking out the remaining Resistance ships. 3. Poppins Leia. Among the problems with that scene were that it breaks established canon for The Force. Now, before you get your hackles up, I'm not really doggedly stuck on canon. But, if The Force were able to do what it did for Leia, then several pivotal events in previous films are suddenly broken. Anakin should have been able to survive being engulfed in lava unscathed. Palpatine should have been perfectly fine after being thrown down the shaft in the Death Star. Additionally, does The Force also protect the user's clothing? She was caught in a massive explosion and there was not a scratch on her nor a tear in her outfit. Also, TLJ takes place, what, minutes after the end of TFA. In TFA, it is established that The Force is seen by the vast majority of people as a myth. The Jedi and Sith have been gone long enough that people have forgotten it. Yet here we have this woman getting blown out into space by torpedoes, flying back to the ship, and no one seems the least bit fazed by this. Finally, from a storytelling standpoint (and this is merely a personal thing), I think it would have made more sense for her to have died in that moment. Kylo couldn't pull the trigger to kill his mother, but his decision didn't change things. She still died. THAT would have had more impact both on the viewer and Kylo as a character. 4. The opening joke. I have no issue with there being humor in Star Wars. But that was just bad. It seemed written by someone that hadn't ever seen a Star Wars movie and wasn't aware that it wasn't about Earth culture. The Han Solo radio conversation in ANH made sense because it fit in the context of the scene and the universe in general. The "Can you hear me now" bit at the beginning of TLJ did neither. 5. Hux as a slapstick comic relief character. Again, I have no issue with comedy in Star Wars, but Hux was pushed WAY over the edge as comic relief in TLJ. To the point that no one would believe that he was in the position he was in. He just wasn't credible. 6. The question of scope. This actually starts being a problem in TFA, but is brought to a head in TLJ. How big is The First Order? Because of events in this film, we're pretty sure how big The Resistance is. But we have absolutely no idea the scope of The First Order. One would have assumed that most of The First Order was obliterated on Starkiller Base. That was a MASSIVE installation with an equally massive staff. Other than that, we have no idea how big The First Order is. 7. Luke's philosophy vis a vis the Light Side/Dark Side of The Force. Luke spends a decent amount of time tearing down the notion that The Jedi and Sith are either one what they're cracked up to be. Pushing the notion that somewhere in the middle (the grey, one might say) is where the truth lies. Loved that. Loved all of it. Would have loved it even more had the movie not tossed it out like Luke did his lightsaber. At the end of this movie, we still end up with the Bad Guy (Kylo) vs. the Good Guy (Rae). Their motivations are exactly the same (well, HIS aren't, at least), but they're still black hat vs. white hat. Any potential new ground was neatly tamped down into old tropes. 8. Minor quibble, but side quests when there's a real time constraint bug the bajeezus out of me. Are you ever playing an open world RPG, your character beset with a world-ending cataclysm on the immediate horizon, and you set out on your hero's journey to gather the necessary items/persons to prevent the apocalypse, only to find yourself gathering some rare flower from the top of a mountain because in your journey, you encounter some old woman that needs the petals of that flower to make the detergent she needs to wash her bawdy husband's clothes? Yeah... that's how I felt for a good portion of Finn and Rose's excursion to get the slicer dude. "But it was all worth it" to save those horse dogs. At least until the rich folks send their servants to recapture them about a half an hour after those events, at least. 9. DJ. So, let me get this straight... This dude is chillin' out in a jail cell for who knows how long. Apparently able to leave whenever he feels like leaving. But he waits for our characters to get tossed in the same cell. Characters he's never, ever met. Characters he has no reason to trust or even like. He waits for that moment to leave. Why? Along those same lines, why bother with the whole "look for the dude with the flower on his lapel from The Leftovers - he's the only one I can think of that could possibly do what you need done" thing, only to undermine it with the DJ character? They make the job seem nigh-impossible, then make it seem like something that any number of people out there could do. 10. Characters routinely do just stupid things for no good reason. Two examples... Finn and Rose get away from the samurai cops on the casino planet by dropping down into the sewers only to leave their escape route obvious to the most casual passerby by leaving the manhole cover half off? Really? Who does that? Also, after getting everyone into the base on Crate, and not expecting anyone else to show up, they leave the door ajar so she can take in the sights until their pursuers arrive (and they KNEW they were coming)? Why? To create dramatic tension. Which is a bad reason. If it's the only reason and it doesn't make any sense otherwise. 11. Self sacrifice - a good thing or a bad thing? Arguably the only thing of note that came out of Rose's mouth was her line about "don't kill the ones we hate, save the ones we love," after she saved Finn from crashing his jalopy into the Death Star canon. Yet, Holdo just killed thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of "the ones they hate" in an act of (pointless - see below) self-sacrifice. Does Johnson want us to applaud self sacrifice or decry it? The message, like the one about light/dark is muddled. 12. The Finn/Rose "romance." I don't think I've ever seen a less well developed romance between two characters in a movie. Maybe something like The Room. These characters barely knew each other by the end of the movie. They had nothing resembling a romantic attachment or romantic chemistry throughout the whole film. And suddenly Rose is in love with Finn at the end? Again - bad, bad storytelling. Finn had far more chemistry with Rae in TFA. 13. This isn't my final problem with the film, but it's my biggest, and I'll leave it on this one. The MAIN PLOT of the movie makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever. We'll start with the bombing run. It has been previously established that both the Rebellion/Resistance and Empire/First Order (presumably) have zero g bombers. The Y-Wing and the TIE Bomber are just that - bombers. And their bombs are, as can ONLY be in the vacuum of space, propelled. So, after the bad joke to start the film, we're introduced to these... things... that The Resistance has for bombers that move at a snail's pace and "drop" bombs from a bay like a WWII bomber on earth. There's no gravity in space. These things shouldn't work. Small quibble? Perhaps if it were the only one in this "plot." Next, we have the Resistance ships on the verge of running out of fuel. That's also not how zero g travel works. You throw your engines to maximum power, then turn them off. You continue on at that same speed until you run into something that slows you down (the gravity of a planet, say). There's no fuel being spent, so there's no fuel to run out of. And even if that were not the case, why wouldn't The First Order simply send some ships through hyperspace to cut off the last couple of Resistance ships? BAM - movie's over in ten minutes instead of the three-four hundred it seemed like it was. Furthermore, as the Resistance ships began "running out of fuel," they began slowing down (again - NOT how things work in space) and, worse, "falling?!?!?" To what? There's no gravity. Even if they didn't keep going at their current speed and direction, they wouldn't fall. Furthermore, why did the pilots of those lagging ships stay behind? There was no good reason for it. They could have transferred to the main cruiser when they were about to "run out of fuel" and not had to die. They served purpose on their ships at that point. And, for that matter, why did Holdo have to stay behind to ram the First Order fleet? Surely they have droids capable of such a simple maneuver. And, if such a maneuver were an option, why not employ that at the outset? Take out that fleet at the get go, then you don't have to worry about the fleet tracking you through hyperspace. Again, movie's over in ten minutes instead of three days. When I walked out of TLJ, I was merely kind of "meh" about it. But as time has passed, and more and more plot holes have become apparent, I've become convinced that it's a bad, bad movie - just from a story-telling standpoint. And it's a TERRIBLE Star Wars movie. I had issues with Rogue One and TFA. R1 dipped into the fan service well entirely too often and the end seemed forced (no pun intended). TFA adhered too doggedly to the themes and structure of ANH. But both, at least, were competent at telling a cohesive story that made sense. TLJ was a hot mess of a story and Rian Johnson seemed far more concerned about killing the past than telling a good story.
If the video games let you use the force to increase the speed at which you run, and the height at which you can jump, I see no reason why you can't pull yourself through space, what with there being no gravity to counteract the pull of the force. Just because Disney threw out the previously established canon doesn't mean anything that happened before that is wrong.
The fuel thing is a pointless thing to mention since star wars has never been good with actual science. There is no sound in space, so the space battles should be completely silent.
The problem with the B plot was the fact that it made half the film 1) less entertaining, at least for most of the people I talked to. 2) Completely counter productive. 3) The turning point was never on screen. We literally never see them tell the dude about the other plan. He thinks this is the big rebel plan and he'll be rewarded handsomely, so his motivation revolved around not knowing, and the climax grew out of him learning, at some point, and we never got to see that, and that's a problem.
Insert Creative Username I'm not remembering that, but even so, that still falls under my point. We should have seen DJ's reaction, even a little bit of it. This could have worked perfectly into the themes of the film: failure, trust, attempts to redeem, and so on. They trusted him with the information, and it didn't work. That could have been told in a way that fit perfectly in everyone's arcs, and heightened that part of the film to integral to the overall message. Instead, the audience has to figure out when he learned something that should have been a turning point.
The ending is very odd, characters celebrating and ends on a high note even though like 90% of the resistance just died and it should have been a very solemn moment
But what if I happen to dislike both Rogue One AND TLJ, but for different reasons? Also, Kylo Ren's mom, Princess / General Leia is dead, he's got no connection there. There's no way around it (which is sad, but true). They have missed their opportunity to give this character a dignified death, now they have to kill her offscreen. Snoke was starting to become an interesting character, chessmaster / manipulator, but then *STAB*! Clever, so clever. Wonder if General Hux does the same to Kylo Ren in 9, would that be as clever?
Episode IX should just be this constantly, to the point where at the end it's revealed that it was all a nightmare that Luke had after eating too many burritos.
After seeing The Rise of Skywalker I love The Last Jedi. I liked The Last Jedi already after seeing it, but I was a little dissappointed back then. The Rise of Skywalker is just a mess.
I think Disney royally screwed up Star Wars films but that's not to say that they're not entertaining as just movies in themselves. TLJ is an abomination but I don't mind watching it. It is entertaining LOL
I was actually really happy they didn’t make Rey’s parents someone important. Like I was really hoping they weren’t going to do something as predictable as making her a Solo or a Kanobe.
I overall liked the movie, but I thought during the part where Laura Dern was in charge, it felt like the movie wanted us to be on Poe's side, and then be wrong. like, the subversion felt a little forced there. and Rose... the actor did great with the lines. the lines were terrible though. I put that one on the writer.
That was the problem; the writing and directing set it up so that Holdo appeared to be an obvious traitor so that later Johnson could fake out the audience with a swerve; “aha!! She WASN’T a bad guy after all! PSYCHE!!” I liked the theme of failure all through the movie and that Poe had the rug pulled out from under him... it just could have been written and directed better. On the other hand; we got Laura Dern actually saying “PEW!” as she comes out of the smoke and fires her blaster, so that was awesome!
To be honest, I felt that it was pretty obvious that he was in the wrong and that she would end up as the one being correct. 1. He starts out the movie with ignoring Leia's orders which ends up in lots of people getting killed. 2. He acts all powerful and in control even after he has been demoted. 3. He acts against the person that is a strong ally of Leia and acts in their best interest. In the end I was just waiting for him to fail 'cause everything else would have meant that his hubris and his "going against the orders of people we are supposed to trust" would result in him being rewarded for his reckless behaviour... which would have been a really weird lesson to take away from the movie.
@@KaworuNagisa I felt the same way, but I think the problem here that a lot of people have, is that you DO get that message in a lot of films, especially movies about war, superhero movies ect. the common message is: our hero is right to disobey the orders, because the orders are stupid. but as jenny said in the video, this movie is about failure, so the hero is not right, and the orders are not stupid, so obviously he is not rewarded, but that is not the way many people expect it to go. and that is why I think so many people didn't like it, because it doesn't give them their "the rogue hero is awesome" narrative
I mostly agree with your criticisms of the criticisms. I still didn’t like the movie though, for two reasons: 1. Failure as a theme is an interesting choice, but when basically everything in the movie happens because all the characters keep screwing up, it’s just not entertaining to me. More cringe-worthy. 2. The tone was all over the place. One example was Luke tossing his father’s lightsaber over his shoulder. This felt like taking a serious moment and trying to play it as a cheap gag. Another example was the ending. 99% of the Resistance died. Why is everyone so happy!? “We have everything we need.” Say what? That ending felt more like a bizarre wake than a cliffhanger. It shattered my suspension of disbelief to such a point that I almost didn’t care what happens next. Two things I did like: The connection between Rey and Kylo Ren was riveting and watching their relationship evolve was hands-down the best part of the movie. Also, Ren killing Snoke and taking over the First Order means he’s finally achieved something Vader always wanted to do, but never could (overthrow the Emperor). That was a great character development moment for Kylo Ren. My $5.
Aw man, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the movie. I feel you on the tone part. I don't necessarily agree with it being 'cringe' though. Your criticisms are of the film itself (which is valid) so hopefully it doesn't hinder your experience of Star Wars as a whole too much.
@@paigel8136 I maybe 40% enjoyed the movie. There was a lot of really good stuff in there, it's just that the stuff I didn't like was too hard to ignore. I had the same issue with Attack of the Clones back in the day. On the whole I still really enjoy everything Star Wars.
@Salmon I just don't buy that Luke would have that much animosity. As for the ending, I just can't get past the fact that so many people died in this movie, and nobody is even acknowledging it on-screen.
@Salmon I think Plinkett did say that too. For me it was Leia's line "we have everything we need" that didn't really make sense. I get why she said it, I just didn't find it believable. At the end of the Last Jedi, it just didn't seem plausible that the small group left over would have any hope of ever challenging the First Order. It broke my suspension of disbelief, kind of like in The Force Awakens when Starkiller base shot out a beam of light that somehow traveled faster than light and was magically visible to everyone (pretty much the only thing in TFA that took me out of my enjoyment of the movie... I thought the rest of the movie was awesome).
10) Snoke has more inpact on the sequels than anyone else not only did he lead the First Order but he caused Kylo to fall to the dark side. He is the entire reason for this conflict. He was also set up as the big bad guy he was descirbed as being ancient which lead people to wondering who he was and what he was doing during the previous trilogies. The red wedding was a good thing to do because we were attached to the charatcers involved. If the re wedding had happened the episode after ned stark died it woudlnt have had anywhere near hte same impact. Robb and Catelyn also didn't die giving awful dialogue that nobody would ever say unless they are about to get betrayed. Seriously who talks like that ? had kylo not betrayed him then people would be complaining about how out of place Snokes monolgue was. What charatceristsic does Snoke have that aren't just Sidious but worse and/or less interesting ? As for your point about sidious not having much backstory in the ot the ot was an original story and narrative in a fictional universe that it was building. The sequel trilogy is a sequel to an already established fictional universe. A continuation. It's a flowing, continuative tale that's being told here. And Snoke is just suddenly... kinda there. Who these people are and how they came to power, I think, is an essential part to this continuative flow, especially since they're succeeding prior characters and groups. And it wouldn't necessarily require much time. But despite that we still get more back story on sidious in ANH Tarkin says "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." So from that we know the galaxy was once ruled by the imperial senate all the way back to the old republic which old ben refers to with Luke. We know Sidious took all of their power and influence for himself. They could have put that sort of information in the crawl or had snoke say something to Rey while bragging it would seem more natural for someone so arrogant that shouting "I CAN NEVER BE BETRAYED!" 5) I havent seen anyone complain about her having the force, ive seen people complain that she is able to do something that would be beyond even windu and anakin (who were in a similar situation in TCW and would have died had R2 not gotten help) Have her use the force in basic ways thats fine. Nobody complained about Leia sensing Hans death but having her protect herself fomr that massive explosion so she only gets ko'd rather than blasted to pieces then fly back to the ship like superman afterwards is ridiulous. Rewatch a clip of order 66 Jedi council members die from much less and they all have decades of training. 4) When Holdo first met Poe she immediatly starts insulting him , which is what created friction between them in the first place. Imagine if you got a new boss and he/she started insulting their subordinates withtin the first minute of meeting them...thats completly incompetant especially when that perosn you are insulkting is not only your best pilot so a very valuable resource but a hot head. She then puts him in a position where he assumes she's making certain all of the resistence will either die or be spread out across the galaxy with no way of finding or communicating with each other. Poes lesson was blindly follow those of a higher rank even in the face or certain doom. Even when Poe asks her what her plan is she just nervously looks away like she didn't have one (to make the audience assume she doesn't), if she didn't want to tell him for whatever reason she could have at least acting confident. Poe didn't leak the information he's a long time supporter of the resistence and risked all those peoples lives because he was so desperate to do damage to the first order. Poe in that regard is one of the most trust worthy people. 2) I get the B plot from a story perspective, but from a practical perspective, they wasted an hour on a boring B plot and the only point of it was to subvert audience expectations and have a very hamfisted message of learning from failure, not that finn and rose have anything to learn from really...don't trust strangers even when you have no other choice ? don't try to save the resistence when you think its doomed ? Ultimately by far the biggest flaw with the film is Luke, though that could be spread out into several flaws like Luke giving up, not caring that Leia and the resistance were going to be doomed in a few weeks, not trying to redeem Kylo ect
banethesithari Luke redeemed himself in the end though. He told Kylo he was sorry that he failed him, he told him the Jedi weren’t ending, and he clearly knew that he was saving his sister and rest of the rebel’s by distracting Kylo. Also you could tell he was unsure of himself giving up because he backed away after he decided to burn the Jedi tree and was shocked when Yoda did it for him.
Ethan Willis Luke still left the galaxy for years while the first order prepared to conquer and take over the galaxy, he still didn't even try to redeem kylo or get Leia and Han to try and redeem him, he still completly failed to rebuild the jedi order, he still forgot the lesson he learnt in ESB about how if you believe something can't be done that is why you fail, he still didn't even say anything or hesitate when he found out Leia and the first order couldn't last more than a few weeks, he still lost a fight to Rey and kylo
The B story with Finn and Poe was bad because the plot drove the characters, not the other way around, like Finn suddenly knows how to pilot, because the plot needs him to abandon ship, the B story was full of that kind of thing.
In the final scenes of TFA we see Leia, Poe and Rey all chillin together around the map to Luke Skywalker. In the final scenes of TLJ Poe goes over to Rey and introduces himself. Did RJ even watch TFA???
The fact that as a viewer, you think "Luke would never try to kill Ben" is a *good* thing. You're *supposed* to feel that way. Your sense that Luke is losing what makes Luke "Luke" is one of my favorite things about this movie, because he isn't perfect! This movie did something movies almost never do, they showed a hero from an earlier movie dealing with his own legendary status, and hating himself for failing to live up to it. And the thing about Rey realizing what she knew all along that her parents were nobodies is a great thing, she stops trying to define herself by how great her parents were, she's gonna define herself by how great *she* is!
Luke is the guy who turned vader (the personification of evil) into the light, but you’re telling me that he was going to kill a member of his family because he sensed darkness in him... what the actual fuck?. You’re saying that subversion is good in this film, which is not, because subversion is not inherently good, you need a good reason to make it good; the reason they gave to luke was beyond stupid btw...
Angel Hernandez The moment Vader mentioned turning Leia (someone he loved) to the dark side, Luke ATTACKED Vader in a moment of pure instinct. He slashed at him and there was NOTHING in the way he was coming at him that told us as the audience he wouldn’t kill him. He even cut off his hand. And then, by seeing his hand, he saw what he was doing and THEN decided to not follow through. But he tried to kill him first. The situation with Ben was not “He was GOING to kill him because there was darkness in him”. It was that he went to confront him, saw the FUTURE. Not just darkness, he saw what was going to happen BECAUSE Ben had already turned to the dark. He saw the death of everyone and everything he loved and THIS time he could stop it. With Vader, Vader already did his terrible deeds. With this situation he could stop it before it happened. And so, in a moment of instinct (similar to with Vader), he ignited his lightsaber. And then IMMEDIATELY knew it was wrong and that he couldn’t, and immediately felt shame and remorse. But Ben saw him and it was too late. I don’t feel like you can say that that was him “Trying to kill his nephew for having darkness in him”. All caps moments aren’t to be aggressive, they’re for emphasis
Luke was a hero sure, but he wasnt some kind of mythical figure in-universe, the 'legend of Luke Skywalker' doesn't actually exist to anyone but us viewers and since the EU doesnt exist Luke isn't anymore legendary than Lando so Luke not living up to his legend is moot point as there is no real 'legend' to live up to.
What utter nonsense. This make makes no sense in terms of character. You’re telling me that Luke would consider killing his nephew based on bad feelings? Luke didn’t even bother to search his true feelings. That moment might have passed but what kind of person would dream of having a Luke that would wield a lightsaber over a boy while he slept? Apparently a maniac who only wanted to assassinate his character (thanks Rian)
That's something I can understand. That's like the truest form of film being subjective. And being someone who loves TLJ and hated TRoS, I can definitely appreciate that more than weird points some people argue, but really just out that they didn't get the point of Star Wars in the first place.
I didn't like any of the sequels really. The first one was just A New Hope II. The second movie didn't have much of a plot beyond subverting expectations. Some subversions would have been fine but I don't think Rian had ideas beyond messing with the plot threads JJ set up. The third movie was JJ throwing a temper tantrum at what Rian did to his work. And big, giant space battles. All three movies were visually nice and hit several emotional beats... but there's no depth. The emotional beats don't hit for me the second time. There's nothing in it to make me want to rewatch it.
@@tiryaclearsong421 Visually yeah in TLJ I really disliked the throne room right because it was poorly done, they used very bad takes. I am disabled and because of my chronic pain I can't engaged in a lot of physical activities but I have always loved sword combat so I love watching it and studying the choreography of it. And almost immediately into that fight there is a flub. It was either Daisy mistimed, or the guard attacking her mistimed. He swings at her head when she should be below it and he thankfully adjusts and avoids hitting her, but he has to very noticeably move his sword up and over her head to avoid bashing her head in with this piece of metal. That was a bad take to use and it made me start immediately analyzing for other small mistakes and there are at least two more. The kick she delivers to one guards chests that sends multiple flying even when they are standing to the side of the guard that was kicked. If they wanted it to be a force push (which would work) give it a physical cue. And during the cutting back and forth between Kylo and Rey fighting the guards when Rey is being pushed by the one guard with two sword blades suddenly it cuts back to her and the guard has only one and is almost immediately killed off by Rey who had up to that point been getting her butt kicked. I am fine with Rey pulling off some cool move and getting the win but.. what happened to the other blade? How did they change positions so much that it let Rey go from being on the defense and being pressed down by the attacker to being able to take them down. Thats a good moment to show in a sword fight, the storytelling of a sword fight is important and showing her overcoming a foe that is clearly more superior skill wise would make a lot of fans settle down in how omg awesome Rey. I do have an issue with her only knowing about the force for 2-3 days MAX and being as strong if not stronger in the force than Kylo and Luke and easily defeating them both and the novelization for The Force Awakens (Which was consulted with Johnson) was just lame. In the canon book she effectively uses her connection to the force to copy and paste every force ability kylo has into her own mind, as well as access all the other force powers Kylo hasn't learned yet. So she was playing with cheat codes on.
You’re right. Rey’s parents didn’t need to be important. The problem with Rey (and this is coming from a guy that defended her character in TFA) is that she is great at everything for no good reason. Compare the fight between her and Kylo in TFA and her fight in the throne room. Those two scenes probably take place a few days apart, yet her fighting skills have, somehow, increased. She got no real training, nor did she get anything interesting to do. Make her a former student of Luke. A student that was left on Jakku and mind wiped in order to forget the trauma of Kylo killing everyone. The age would sort of fit since Ben is like 10 years older. Her parents could’ve still been nobodies, but in this scenario, there’s reason for why she can suddenly mind control and use the force so effectively. I enjoyed her character and Daisy’s acting in TFA, but TLJ really let me down, because it highlighted how overpowered and uninteresting her character actually is.
My theory is that snakes aren't real, they're just a cultural thing that everyone ascribes attributes to, and everyone kind of wishes exists, but doesn't. It's a similar situation to ducks in Warcraft: Rubber ducks exist, references to ducks exist, but no evidence of any non-fictional ducks exists in the worlds of Azeroth or Draenor. But here's where things get weird. Obi-Wan Kenobi at one point in the novelization of A New Hope references a duck, and Luke says that he doesn't know what that is. Obi-Wan brushes this off and tries to change the subject. This clearly indicates three things: 1. Obi-Wan Kenobi has been to Earth, because 2. Ducks don't exist in the canonical Star Wars universe, and that shows that 3. Warcraft is set in the Star Wars universe, they've just achieved closer metaphysical resonance with the abstract concept of a duck than the Core Worlds. This has been my TED Talk.
it's similar to dragons in the Wheel of Time. there's a key historical figure called Dragon, and has imagery associated with them that is recognizable as a dragon to the audience, but the actual creatures don't exist
I’m sorry you’re wrong go back and watch Return of the Jedi. Luke defeated Darth Vader in their duel and had the opportunity to strike him down yet refused to do so threw his own lightsaber aside and risked his own life believing that the good inside his father would shrine through.
Think about. It was like the end of episode 3. Another darth vader could come, killing all of the other jedi. After everything Luke had done, it would be happening all over again! Imagine that feeling.
549 Nation that’s the point. The relationships are different. Whereas in Vader Luke saw someone he could bring back to the good side, in Ben he saw someone who was rapidly slipping through his fingers. The people from Anakin’s past couldn’t help him, only a new relationship with Luke could. The same is true with Kylo and Rey.
I liked Rogue One, I love Kylo Ren & I think Last Jedi is better than Force Awakens (I prefer films that make moves & tells a story instead of creating a bunch of unanswered questions for the sake of sequels). You can't label me Jenny! Or can you? Try to label me in the comments below.
Finn's arc is also about founding purpose. He didn't want to be in the resistence he was gonna leave just so he could help Rey stay away from them when she decided to comeback. But by the end of the movie he's so commited to the cause that he refers to himself as rebel scum and is willing to die destroying that weapon in order to save everyone. Finn finally has something to fight for.
I know I'm late, but...honestly, it didn't need to take two and a half hours for Finn to learn that lesson while going on the least interesting adventure in all of Star Wars filled with nonsensical plots where they free animals but not the slaves, they go looking for the one code breaker they can trust and somehow find one literally in their jail cell. Or parking a ship in the beach of a large city like they'd never heard of a space port before.
At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke had his lightsaber inches from Vader's throat, and had just chopped off his hand. Vader was holding his remaining hand up in surrender. Luke was perfectly capable of killing Vader, but he chose not to. This isn't my opinion, it's what literally happened in the movie.
Vader was unbalanced during his fight with Luke on the Death Star. If Luke was just some random Jedi, Vader could’ve have beaten him, but their familial relationship pulling Vader to the light was enough to give Luke the edge.
Jack White I agree that Luke defeated Vader, but it wasn’t because he was more skilled or powerful in the force. Luke was smart by taking advantage of Vader’s pull to the light which is why he won
@@TheSquidVideos sorry, should've specified that I was responding to the OC, not to you. I thought it seemed a bit much to say "actually luke didn't try to kill him" and then reference the point in the film directly after luke stopped trying to kill him
Asian are smart, SW:TLJ are bombed in China. Also if Leia is a good leader, she should just hold her feeling for the greater cause. She is a general now and she can remorse later.
It would explain his strength in the Dark Side; he had so much time to observe Yoda and learn the intricacies of the Force. This should be the new "Jar-Jar Binks was intended to be a Sith Lord and the ultimate antagonist".
Jack Slack yes! The dialogue was way too "slangy" and had too many linguistic references to Western Civilization. It took me out of the film several times. When Yoda used the phrase "page turners they were not" I was like, "when did they all suddenly get hip?"
"Rian, people in Star Wars have a different mythology than we do. They don't actually know a "laser sword" by any other name than a light saber." "Gotcha, so we'll just have Luke call it a "beam katana", right?"
I agree with so much of what you're saying and I'm glad others did like the movie but I have to disagree with you about Holdo. Regardless of what she tells or doesn't tell Poe, there is no reason for her to withhold this information from anyone. This isn't a secretive mission they're just running for their lives and everyone is scared and doubting that she has a plan not just Poe, that's how he manages to organise a mutiny so easily. If Holdo had just said to everyone, 'look we are going to get out of this and this is how' then everyone would have been far more at ease and the plan would have gone off without a hitch because Finn and Rose wouldn't have gone on that casino mission and gotten captured, granted though idk what they would have done with those two characters in this film instead. Also I'm not saying Poe is blameless because he was rash and insubordinate, just that Holdo shares some of that blame. I'm curious however what was your opinion on the whole Rose saves Finn thing because 'they'll win by saving those they love' or something to that effect, because I thought that was dumb as hell because by sacrificing himself that was exactly what Finn was doing, saving everyone else, who he loves. Minor point but it annoyed me.
I feel like she didn't need to do that much. She didn't need to reveal what the whole escape route is, but just give any kind of sign that there was a plan. Poe was worried about the apparent inaction of the leadership of the Rebellion so he acted brashly, but if he knew that there was a plan, any plan, to begin with I don't think he would have. Poe would have been like "hey we're in a pretty precarious situation right now and you don't seem to be doing anything about it" and Holdo could have said "don't worry, it's under control I have a plan" and I think that would have been enough
Many videos have already addressed this point, but I'll sum it up here: They don't make it as clear in the movie, but when you rewatch you can get the broad idea. So the Rebellion make several comments on how they don't know how they're being tracked through lightspeed. This leads them to infer that there's a spy on board. Holdo basically is taking every possible measure to ensure that the plan can't get leaked to the First Order. Had Poe told Holdo "Hey we discovered this, we just need to do this and we're good," then Holdo would've been like "Oh that's a great plan, good work. I'm proud of you. There's no spy after all whew!" Instead, Poe goes with the rash decision of sending two untrained people to retrieve this hacker dude because he believes they're the only two he can trust. When Finn and Rose get to the casino planet, they screw themselves over because they act rashly and don't park where they're supposed to. That's literally the only reason why they get arrested and end up with the one guy who betrays them instead of the hacker dude they were supposed to get. Then this new dude betrays them for money. And thus everything goes to shit. ^Guarentee someone's going to say "That's not summing it up." To which I respond with: 30-50 minute video or two paragraphs? You pick.
@@shaelynmartin1996 If Poe was a spy, don't you think they'd have tapped him for "don't blow up Starkiller base" rather than some convoluted mop-up operation?
@@CruelestChris I never said Poe was suspected of being a spy, nor has anyone ever said that. It was pretty clear Poe wouldn't have been the spy based on the interaction Leia and Holdo had after the escape in regards to Poe. The issue was the fact that they acknowledged that Poe didn't think things through. He acted before thinking of the consequences. If they let him know the plan, how could they be certain that he wouldn't tell the "spy" their plans because he trusted the "spy"? Again *they don't know how they're being tracked through lightspeed*.
@@shaelynmartin1996 If they'd told him the plan there would never have been a spy in the first place. And if he acts without thinking, having him think there is no plan is the worst thing you can do, since he'll try to come up with his own. This _happens_ in the movie, for God's sake. Also, why don't they consider Leia's tracking device which can signal to Rey at any distance might be how they're being tracked?
Justin Snyder They hinted that she was likely strong with the force, not that she has any connection to any previous Star Wars character. You made that idea up in your head. Daisy Ridley herself stated that the answer to her parentage (Basically the biggest question on everybody's mind) was clearly answered in TFA. It was finally confirmed in TLJ. I understand why that might disappoint somebody, but in my opinion, I love that she is force sensitive, but has major flaws as a character at the same time and DOES NOT have to be connected to a Luke, Obi Wan or Palpatine in any way, shape or form. What I got out of the reveal that her parents were awful nobodies that never gave a shit about her is that she, just like any other young child with force sensitivities, has it within herself to formulate her own destiny. She doesn't need to be defined by her past, each struggle is a stepping block to reach her true potential. ☺
warrior1795 no, there were 2 scenes where someone asked, who's the girl, then cut away, the joke with bb8 about big secret, there was no hint about her force abilities, that was blatantly obvious, the hint were all about who she was, literally everyone I talked to after seeing tfa was, so who do you think rey is? You're lying to yourself if you didn't wonder who she is after tfa, I really don't care that she's nobody, but there were more than one slaps in the face to jj Abrams in tlj, reys lineage being one
Justin Snyder That was simple misdirection then. The characters wanted you to think that her lineage had this huge importance to her story, but that did not end up being the case.
Ok, you've convinced me about Luke's temptation. I guess in a movie if you don't get to the point of actually holding the lightsaber over your target some audience members may not understand what the temptation was. PS/EDIT - I loved Last Jedi, that just stuck out to me.
Days later... My brain keeps coming back to Luke's attitude at the end of RotJ, "I will not fight you"/"I know there is good in him". Would someone who once withheld violent wrath from another obviously deserving of it, made this sort of mistake we got? The thought might cross his mind, but I don't see him getting the point of holding a lightsaber over him to make the kill. This same dynamic could have been achieved and portrayed more subtly if Kylo was simply force-aware of this passing thought of Luke's directed at him which made him afraid and unsure of being around this teacher. And this connects to the new force-ability that lines up with his Rey force interactions. Alternatively, what if Luke's mistake was not destroying Kylo. Now this only makes sense if Kylo was utterly unredeemable so it would change everything. I think this creates interesting conflict for Luke to deal with and learn that some people might just be evil. After his success with his dad, it follows that Luke's issue could be inaction against evil, waiting for it "come around". (Understandably a weird theme for a kids movie.)
@@DavidBehlman You brought up Luke's refusal to fight Vader, but if we are going to use that as a precedent remember that Luke went completely crazy when Vader threatened Leia, screaming and swinging wildly at him in a rage, cutting his hand off, and nearly killing him. Meanwhile in TLJ, the guy is seeing an actual vision of the future where the person in from of him is directly responsible for the deaths of trillions upon trillions of innocent people and all of Luke's loved ones, and even then the fact that Luke even considered killing him for half a second fills him with incredible shame. Literally any decent human being would at least have the thought.
@@ellieporter3270 I know this is a year old, but as someone with a contentious relationship with my dad, and with little brothers who I watched and grew up with, the closest analogue I have for helping raise a nephew, the dynamics of those relationships are so far from each other that it irks me to see it treated similarly. No amount of in universe context is going to change that. Luke lashing out at Vader's threat isn't the same as his reaction to the force vision because neither his relationship with the person nor the person are actually the same, and maybe using the force as a catch all works for discrepancies, but for me, that didn't translate to my experience outside the screen.
My big question is, if Rey is no one, daughter of no one, and there's no past history between her, Luke or Kylo (like it was speculated), why does Kylo freak out at the mention of "a girl" in TFA? Why is there a mystery conversation between Han and Yellow Yoda Lady about Rey's identity?
Jenny: If Rey wasn't raised by her parents, and she doesn't remember them, then they don't really affect her character at all...Unless they have any hereditary conditions she needs to know about
JJ: Funny you should mention that...
Bwa Bwa Yoshi it any of the comics/novels
The hereditary condition of "Supervillain" XD
“Any hereditary conditions you should know about”
...
Alan Dean Foster: “write that down, write that down”
the hereditary condition was force lightning
As phrased on the Blank Check podcast, the force is a heritable disease that helps you cheat at cards
Episode IX will just have Kylo spending all of his time in diplomatic conferences and budget meetings getting increasingly frustrated at the amount of admin involved in running a galactic empire.
Hux's path to power is carved from tax return forms.
Okay, kind of really want that to happen. Because then he'll go all the way crazy and start slaughtering the bureaucrats, giving us a catharsis moment for all the times we were bored with the politics while watching the preludes.
Also, him having to fill forms to kill them off. He makes a move to choke this snide guy but someone else says "Supreme Leader, have you filled out a Force choke application for that?"
And then destroying his gamer chair
"But that's impossible: how will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy!?"
Actually, this is a pretty poorly written piece of dialogue: the Senate (presumably) being a legislative body, they wouldn't have anything to do with running the bureaucracy, whereas the new system, wherein "the regional governors...have direct control" after the dissolution of the Senate, sounds like a purely administrative state: bureaucracy run amok, if you will.
would have been better than what we got tbh
"Just kinda means that the third movie is less able to follow a predictable formula" oof. That hurts to hear now
IKR?
This trilogy started with a common formula and then started going in a original, compelling, and fun way...Just for they take all this from us
@@o...o4144 How is rebels vs. empire original? I'm calling both First Order and Final Order the empire since Palps was behind the whole thing.
That's exactly why this movie was a bad *episode 8*: you can't snack down all the setups and leave nothing in the middle movie of a trilogy.
As a side movie all the subverting expectations could work far better.
It was a little less predictable. I watched the name, the trailers, the interview; and still wouldn't believe that they would go all the way Palpatine on this one.
I don't understand how anyone thought ep9 would be good. NOTHING was developed plot-wise in TLJ. In fact it was broken down even further and none of the setup for ep7 was explained.
Total failure of a trilogy, which is sad because 7 had pieces that could have been used to make it work. Too bad TLJ was horrendously bad and nonsensical.
“Taking out that obstacle in the 2nd movie with a whole movie left to go just kinda means that the 3rd movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula.”
Man I thought so too. Oof
folsum53 oof :((
Oof is putting it mildly :-/ When Jenny said "Rey's parents don't really affect her at all," I actually cringed.
Remember back in the aftermath of TLJ where fuckbois were complaining about inclusion in their Star Wars movies, and people who saw how good it was were excited about the prospect of what this movie would lead into...
And then TROS came out and ushered all the smooth-brained babies back into the Star Wars tent with 130 minutes of nonsense?
i mean what happened in the movie wasn't predictable, I was shocked constantly about all the terrible plot choices
@@antuan2564 jenny literally predicted every plot twist... 1 to 2 years out....
YES. Why was there two snake based insults? Weird.
Snoke’s man cave was almost as good as yours btw.
Rian ruined star wars with his snakes, ugh, how could he
The snakes are the key to... ah fuck it.
Jake Bowley REGULAR THRONE ROOM
Snakes are universal archetypal representations of evil; even people who have never seen snakes are often afraid of them and think of them as evil. These new starwars movies are being designed to be a accessible to the widest range of human experience, whereas the original trilogy was probably written specifically for a western/American audience. I don’t know anything; it’s just a theory... stop looking at me like that!
"we still have hux, the knights of ren, and the entire first order" oof that didn't age well :P
Hux was turned into a clown by Rain, the Knights of Ren had to be forced down the audience's throat in ROS, and the first order became pointless with the introduction of the Final Order. Yeah, I wish she was right.
In the beginning there was Palpatine.
Neither did, "That leaves the third movie free to do something different, instead of having the big mysterious old guy to overcome."
The only logical course was to make Snoke Plageuis and not kill him in TLJ. That was the only way to tie the entire series together and make the first order relevant. I'm starting these god awful Aftermath books to figure out how the hell Disney retconned ep7 into making sense from a worldbuilding perspective.
@@Velereonics I mean, sure, it would be logical, but also, you know, extremely dumb and cringey. The issue with the new series is that right in the middle of their space wizard movie trilogy, someone did something interesting for the first time in the history of the entire series.
Like she said, him being Plagueus (not gonna bother spell checking the space wizard name) or not is meaningless. Because Plagueus is not a character not even a concept, he's just a throwaway line in a even shittier movie.
I mean, logical for what end? Logically, I guess they should just pander to their man-baby audience and take the critical L's, because they could keep making that nerd money.
Captain Phasma's death was just a shame, I really thought they were going to go somewhere with her and Finn. Way more disappointed about her than Snoke lol
She actually had a better death in a deleted scene.
That and the Rose and Finn kiss were really the only big issues I had with the film. Johnson really should have used the deleted Phasma death scene
I thought that there would be some inner joke about Phasma always coming back somehow. But 9 wasn't about the sequel trilogy, so they were probably happy they didn't need to deal with Phasma. If she was alive, there would be some random battle with Original trilogy's Boba Fett manhandling her or something.
Owen Velazquez she kills her own men to cover up the fact that she was responsible for Starkiller’s shields going down.
@@davidv4018 imagine if they dedicated 30 minutes to a b plot about phasma surviving poe twice and building a vendetta, even if her presence was weak in the first 2 that could have been interesting and fleshed out a.) their relationship and b.) the context behind those previous scenes. i want to see Punished Phasma who's more preoccupied with killing Poe than helping the First Order, accidentally tying into the A plot in some interesting way
"The Emperor was just a Two-Dimensional obstacle to be defeated, and taking out that obstacle with a whole 'nother movie left to go just kinda means the third movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula..." Jenny, JAY JAY would like a word with you...
TheKhannunisT As much as I disagree with the people who call him "Jar-Jar Abrams" on much about the rest of the sequal trilogy, he earned that nickname with Rise of Skywalker. It literally feels like all of these "dumbest reasons" wrote Rise of Skywalker
@@WillCMay he earned that name with The Force Awakens. Everything wrong with this trilogy goes back to that movie and the lack of a solid foundation
William Avitt I liked Force Awakens when it came out, but looking where everything lead I can see your point. Last Jedi still holds up quite well as a stand alone for me, and sadly it will probably never get a proper sequal because I know I'm in a minority (that seems to be slightly more people than I thought) that absolutely adored the "Game of Thronsification" of Star Wars for the ideas presented and thought it felt like Rise of Skywalker was written by the dumbest haters of The Last Jedi. They basically retconned everything I loved, with no explanation. I wish there was a Rian Johnson version of episode 9, it would be epic to see a proper sequal to Last Jedi.
@@WillCMay I kinda agree, I really defended JJ until Rise. Earned the Jar-Jar
JJ was against bringing back the emperor. Disney overruled him.
Ask Mace Windu what he thinks about snakes on his spaceship.
Someone needs to get those nerf herding snakes off his nerf herding spaceship. I am a casual SW fan, so I don't know any other canon swears... other than "frack"
My biggest problem is that when Snoke was threatening Rey he said something like "I'll kill you with the cruelest stroke" and it made me laugh because 'stroke' rhymes with Snoke.
Also when he said "spunk" for some reason, I just died laughing
He went up in smoke!
“I’ll kill you with the cruelest stroke” said snoke, stoking rey’s anger
Did we ever see smoke and BB-8 at the same time?
Coincidence?
*N O*
you can't see in smoke silly
BB-8 turns out to be the most powerful of them all
"Never underestimate a droid"
Jenny: "Taking out that obstacle in the second movie with a whole movie left to go means the third movie in the trilogy is less able to stick to a predictable formula"
JJ Abrams: "Hold My Beer"
JJ "let's retread all the nostalgia" Abrams.
In an interview JJ said: "I went a little bit crazy on this one". Adam Driver said "JJ came up with something unique and rare". I am still trying to understand what they meant.
Now look how the Star Wars universe is looking sense the cast is no longer under Disney's NDA.. LOL John Boyega and Daisy Ridley are telling the truth about how they really feel about being in the Disney Trilogy SHIT SHOW. HAHAHA
@@andmicbro1 JJ should only get to make 1 movie per franchise. That retreading of nostalgia can be engaging for a first installment, but gets tiresome quickly if you don't mix it up for the sequel. Star Trek(2009) and Force Awakens were both a lot of fun and rekindled my interest in their respective franchises. Into Darkness and Rise of Skywalker both took that good will and squandered it with shallow retreads because neither film seems to realize that once you rebuild that familiar foundation we want to see what new thing you can build on top of it.
They got so predictable that literally nobody expected it
How did I watch this video 80% through before noticing the GIANT PORG.
Watch the video where she gets it. It’s the purest, sweetest thing ever.
@TurboCMinusMinus this was the worst attempt at a diss I have ever seen. Shame.
I was watching her "dumbest episode 8 theories" video for the third time before I realized the actual wall of PONIES behind her, so yeah
fans of tlj and this girl in general tend not to notice obvious details. u have my pity
@@Chronz ???
This trilogy makes me sad. Not because it's bad but man the universe just feels so beaten down at this point. I mean right now it kind of feels like the galaxy has no official government. Theres just a bunch of neo imperials and five rebels repeatedly punching each other.
that one stormtrooper what’s even worse is how divisive the community has become. Supporters and haters are isolated in their respective forums.
@@thesenate2676 "isolated in their respective forums" like a bunch of neo imperials and five rebels repeatedly punching each other?
Star Wars its just a setting, you can make the next movie 1000 years after with another state of the galaxy. I don't think they are gonna continue with these characters (actors), so there is no ancor to a timeline.
This is why I support the Empire. Some government is always better than no government.
@@albertskoften1452 The rebels aren't anarchists though, the Rebel Alliance was structured as a government alongside its military force during 4-6. Then they formed the New Republic (which is seen a little in Mandalorian). Their senate was what Starkiller Base annihilated in 7. There's no government oppositional to the FO after that, but 7-9 only took place over the course of like two years, so I'd say it's fair to give them time to rebuild.
your speech about snoke dying and drawing parallels to the emperor in the OT makes me feel even sadder that all JJAbrams could do in ROTS was bring back the emperor
Yeah…
Its makes me sad because the time to do away with a character the filmmakers saw no real potential in was BEFORE the FIRST movie was filmed
@@KRobinson-ko1ne Yes, that would have been the time to remove him. I don't know if you agree with me here, but IMO removing him in episode 8 eternalizes his poor character.
You thought Snoke was going to pose a legitimate threat, but it was just Snoke and mirrors
"I'm not gonna go into my Star Wars fandom psychology session"
Please Jenny, I actually really want to see that. I'd watch hours of that breakdown.
pls do this pls
She won't. So, I guess it's up to one of us. I mean, I'm willing to do it and have kind of started it.
ua-cam.com/video/miVRaoR_8xQ/v-deo.html
For the lolz at her expense?
@@SirBlackReeds this jab at legacy fans looks real stupid now. I don't know her but she must have thought she was on the right side of history with this video.
Why was the executioner stormtrooper different?
To sell toys.
if youre mad at that youve gotta be mad at scout troopers on from ROTJ...
Sandtroopers in A New Hope? Oh, and remember, George Lucas practically invented merchandizing... bit of a weird critique of a Star Wars movie.
First time I read the word "Sandtrooper" and I've been watching Star Wars for the last 23 years. The Stormtroopers on Tattooine are just regular Stormtroopers with a shoulder pad that denotes rank and an ammo belt over the shoulder. Meaning they look like the regular army grunt and carry stuff they need in the environment they operate in. At the time it was believed that all Stormtroopers everywhere look like the run-of-the-mill frowny face skeleton man. The first big new Trooper redesign was the Snowtrooper. Again, sensible decision within the universe. Same for Scout Troopers. Stormtrooper Executioners now are a whole different beast. They are not refitted for the environment, they are just guys with a stripe on their helmet and carry an axe. When, on the open battlefield, do you need an executioner to hand? You can just shoot deserters on the spot and you don't have the time or calm to stage a public execution. Why does a guy whose only job it is to swing an axe need a suit of armor? Is he afraid his undergarments might get dirty from the blood? But oh, the axe cauterizes the wound so it wouldn't matter. It's like Executioners simply wear their parade armor, but that is usually more interesting to look at than your regular work clothes with an additional stripe.
They are definitely called Sandtroopers, check wookieepedia if you have to. And I'm not disputing that the executioner design was made to sell toys, but so was a lot of stuff in Star Wars from the beginning. They may have an extended role that we don't know yet.
The Wookiepedia says "Desert Stormtrooper (also called sandtrooper)" on the Legends side (i.e. what they were called before the Disney buyout). I assume sandtrooper used to be an unofficial denomination, like the "Scarif Trooper" is also known as "shoretrooper" among fans because it works as a pun.
Little did Jenny know, JJ was one of those people who hated TLJ lmaoooo
JJ has that "lack of imagination" Jenny warned us about.
I don't understand how you couldn't dislike TLJ, there is not a single scene I can remember that's enjoyable. It would be the throne room fight scene, but the choreography falls apart really quickly if you actually look at it.
James Leliveld Luke drinking blue titty milk is pretty memorable......for better or for worse.
Um, I enjoyed almost every scene except the titty milk and all of the casino planet, of course.
@@jamesleliveld9957 Maybe try to engage the film on a character basis.
To your smaller point about the executioner and why there is a different design to them, the reason is toys. And that’s not a criticism, it’s been that way since 1977.
I actually really like the executioner design
I'm kind of ashamed to admit how much I dug Snoke's Hugh Hefner style in this movie. He just seems like a guy who spent way too much time playing on god mode to take anything *that* seriously anymore.
Poirot's Mustache same, besides the fight scene, the only thing i liked was when he smacked Rey with the lightsaber 👏😂
yes
That's great and all, but I still don't know who the fuck Snoke was. How did he become the head of the First Order? What are his motivations beyond being a Palpatine knockoff? How did he get his powers in a franchise where the Rule of Two exists? I mean, these are all pretty important points that the movie just skips over in order to give us a clever reveal.
@@ramonalejandrosuarebut… why is it important? You didn’t know who emperor was before the prequels as well lol
That was before there was an entire canon and mythology invented. Also, the original trilogy only mentioned the Emperor and then introduced him in the 3rd film. These movies had Snoke as a character, set him up, and then didn't deliver much on him because you could see they were just making shit up from movie to movie. @@veronicablake5389
Could you imagine how it would be if Luke had killed Ren? How's my son, Leia asks. I was worried that he was going to the dark side, so i cut him in half in his sleep.
Mike Bowermaster We needed a “Leia uses the Force to give Luke a smack down scene”
Lol that exactly why this movie is so twisted
Which is why, as Jenny already extensively discussed in this video, he *didn't do that.*
Leah C
Lol that distinction doesn’t really make it better does it?
@@timy9197 That depends. Do you believe that thoughts are the same as actions? Do you believe thinking about committing a crime is the same as committing a crime? I sincerely never hope you get in a position of power if that's the case.
Similar to the snake thing, I always thought Han's "then I'll see you in HELL!" from Empire was jarring as there's never any indication (at least in the films) that people in Star Wars believe in any kind of discrete afterlife, aside from Force Ghosts, much less a hell.
The way I see it, we're supposed to treat the use of English language in Star Wars the way we treat Tolkien's narration of the events in Middle Earth: a loose translation. It's simply a filter that replaces a galactic common language's nuances with their closest equivalent in the English language, to help us better understand the material. No translation is perfectly coherent to its source material, especially when the source material appears this alien to the audience, but as long as it clarifies the meaning, even by drawing less than fully proper comparisons, it's done its job.
And in Empire, on Dagobah, there were actual snakes. Not “space snakes with a cool space name.” Literal California king snakes.
Womp rats have had that name for forty plus years and other than maybe the one word put before “rat,” there’s nothing especially extraterrestrial about it.
Maybe in the Star Wars "Hell" is a horrible planet that everyone in the galaxy knows is an unfortunate place to end up?
@@MrSirhasArrived That's an unneeded explanation that I can see a hack sci-fi writer come up with. "Hell" has always been just a generic term for a terrible place. Why can't it just be the same here?
@@gladspooky9455 "Hell" as used on Earth is just a generic term for a terrible place. Not in a galaxy long ago, and far far away. Also the greatness of the original trilogy is sometimes seen as editing saving the movies from a "hack sci-fi" writer as seen what happened when GL had free reign in the prequels.
“If you’re a fake fan who doesn’t watch children’s programming” I love this channel
Ironically she's a fan of Star Wars but has the retention of a goldfish.
Man, imagine unironically not watching kids shows. SMH.
Big difference between child programs and family programs
@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 yes because I'm not a pedophile
@@daniellee9328 watching kids shows does not automatically make you a pedophile. That's a pretty fucked up thing to say.
13:50 Can you imagine someone watching a sports anime and being like "This entire tournament the team participated in was pointless because they were eventually eliminated!"?
This is my new favorite comment
The difference is that finn and Rose didn’t learn anything, and the overall plot literally wasn’t affected in anyway shape or form
A sports anime? Do you mean a sports competition?
@@greywolf7577 No, because an anime is a story that someone plans out and chooses how it goes. So someone might criticize the writer for making the choice to write a whole arc that ends in failure. You know what I mean? I'm trying to explain as best as I can, but it's hard to do in a text format.
@@elise_g There are sports movies where the team you're meant to root for loses at the end. The message could be interpreted as, "It's okay if you lose as long as you tried your best" or "Sometimes life isn't fair" or any number of things. My point is that there's more than one way to resolve a plot thread, although there's barely any variation in the sports movie/anime genres, to the point that having the team lose at the end is almost as cliché as having them win.
Ultimately, I don't think plot beats and twists matter as much as the emotional arcs of the characters, something I felt the Last Jedi was better at than most Star Wars films. A sports movie or anime can be as predictable as they come and still tell a compelling story. Even so, we get numbed to seeing the same story repeatedly, so filmmakers try to surprise us so that we can experience emotions we weren't prepared for. Your criticism boils down to, "It defied conventions" but you don't explain why that makes the Last Jedi worse in context.
In retrospect, I feel like if we got a complete Rian Johnson trilogy, or a complete J.J. Abrams trilogy, it would have been better as a whole. They don't mix well. I'm fine with Johnson subverting expectations and I like Abram's mystery box when they pay off, but the best of each of their approaches got mangled by the other. I loved that Rey's parents were nobodies (until they weren't). I love that Luke defeated Kylo with finesse and pacifism. I didn't mind necessarily that Snoke was killed off, but it did highlight how disconnected the sequel trilogy is from the original trilogy. There's so much hand waving about the gap between the two trilogies, that I almost feel like it would work better if they just set it a few hundred years in the future. Did Luke, Leia, Han, any of it really matter? Did Rey need to be Palpy's grandaughter? They clearly wanted to do a total reset of the universe, so why muddy the waters with the original trilogy crap?
Johnson can subvert expectations well when he puts the work into making those subversions compelling and meticulously thought out.
That’s just it, the real issue was this absurd hand-off strategy between movies. If Rian or JJ had control of all three movies at least they would be internally coherent. This trilogy was just a jumble that reminded me of that writing exercise where you write one paragraph of a story and pass it around and get a hilarious mad-libs style story by the end.
Utterly disagree. If JJ did the whole thing it would have been just as bad probably. Rian would have done an awesome job. Also the whole "they don't mix well" is only true from JJ's side, while Rian did a great job following up ep7 (done by JJ), and might have done a good end movie for the trilogy.
EXACTLY. This is exactly what I was thinking. JJ tried to make it very similar to the original trilogy and Rian tried to break the mold, and those two ideas don’t go well together
@@TheRambunctious nope. Wrong again.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
there make be snakes
Snake fixation
No my friends, Snokes not snakes... sadly it’s Snokes.
@@ColdHawk there moke be snoke clones
I absolutely loved the reveal that Rey was a nobody. That was such a diversion from all of the other movies. Ep 9 was infuriating to me.
I've seen this argument so many times, and I still don't understand it. It was already pretty well established that force users can come from anywhere. Literally the only family connection that was ever shown as meaningful in that regard was between Luke and Anakin. Anakin himself was a nobody, he started as a slave on a backwater sand planet. Why was Rey being a nobody treated as such a revolutionary new idea for the franchise?
@@swagromancer Anakin wasn’t a nobody. He was born from the force impregnating his mother. He was literally a child of prophecy. That’s as opposite of a nobody as you can get.
@@Rhewin Only if that is somehow manifested within the context of the universe. Which it wasn't. He didn't gain any special powers or unexplained abilities, he didn't receive special privileges or extra training, most of the Jedi council members didn't even believe that he was indeed the chosen one. Qui-Gon Jinn believed it, and Obi-Wan sort of believed it because he wanted to honour his master's wishes, and that's it. As far as everybody else was concerned, Anakin was a former slave from the desert who missed his mum. The prophecy served as a reason for Qui-Gon to take him in. Everything else could have happened to anybody.
@@swagromancer if you don’t get it, I can’t explain it
@@Rhewin That's a bit of a problem, then. Fact is, the idea that powerful force users can come from anywhere was nothing new and groundbreaking. Not even the idea that there's a fast and easy way to absolute power. It's just that in the past, that was reserved for the bad guys.
I'm still disappointed that Snoke isn't Jar Jar Binks
Who says he isn't?
I can hope
Snoke never looked like a gungan. And Jar Jar is a bumbling idiot who's always been on the heroes' side. I'm actually glad he's not Jar Jar. It would ruin both characters even more. I never liked the whole Darth Jar Jar theory.
The darth jar jar theory is the only reason the prequels are watchable at all. Its kind of poetic that the character who stands for everything wrong with the series could secretly be the ultimate bad guy. It doesnt make the movies any better, but it makes them strangely funny.
Sean Wheeler Jar Jar used Dark Side alchemy space magic to change his appearance. :P
I agree that many of these criticisms are silly. But I still had major problems with this film.
All of my issues can be summed up into 2 main categories: dropped story threads and scaling issues. The movie is pretty decent as a standalone, but as a sequel it pretty much breaks the internal logic of the universe.
That the Republic, for example, has somehow been overrun off-screen by the First Order after their main weapon was destroyed, to the point that only the teeny tiny Resistance is left to launch a counterstrike. It's such a ludicrous prospect that it breaks my suspension of disbelief. The First Order isn't the Empire; they're interlopers without an established foothold in the galaxy. The destruction of the Death Star could be mostly shrugged off by the Empire because they were already entrenched. The First Order shouldn't have that luxury. At no point did I actually BELIEVE that the conflict was important. It felt entirely unmoored and therefore low-stakes. Like it belonged in an episode of Rebels, rather than a movie.
Then there are story threads like Finn's hinted Force sensitivity, Luke leaving behind a puzzle specifically to be found in case of an emergency, the Knights of Ren -- just to name a few. Twists at the expense of cohesive storytelling is bad writing. It reminds me a bit of the anime Blood-C.
It's like graffitying some really interesting tags over an well made tapestry. No matter how great or profound the graffiti in its own right, it's still vandalism.
decentradical Exactly. That's a really good metaphor.
The story this film told wasn't bad. It just barely provided any payoff whatsoever to the setup from TFA. Johnson evidently just dropped the story threads that didn't interest him personally. Sometimes even outright contradicting them, as is the case with his handling of Luke.
I agree, except Luke didn't leave a map behind. At least not that we know.
Very Serious He left behind piecemeal directions to what he believed to be the first Jedi Temple, IIRC. Finding the pieces was an integral part of the plot of TFA.
To my knowledge people are still debating whether Luke wanted to be found or not.
The snake is Snoke's last horcrux. Oh, he'll be back.
You're wrong. Clearly the Porg stuffed animal is the last horcrux.
"Snoke" is the past tense of "snake." As in: _The smoke snoke through Snoke as he toked and got woke._
*rips a phat vape cloud*
"You will never be dank enough for the Knights of Ren."
+UniCom Star Wars is all about the dank memes.
Tatooine is Darude - Sandstorm
The Empire is All Your Base Are Belong to Us
R2-D2 is Good Guy Greg
Chewbacca is ERMAHGERD!!!
The Force is Double Rainbow
Episodes 1-3 are Rick Roll
Anakin is Bad Luck Brian
Palpatine is Scumbag Steve
Jar Jar Binks is me_irl
Darth Maul is Grumpy Cat
Mos Eisley cantina is Keyboard Cat
Obi Wan Kenobi is Actual Advice Mallard
Yoda is "but none of my business, that is" Kermit
Ghost Yoda frying the Jedi texts is Cooking by the Book
Old Luke's power level is *OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAND!!!!*
Anakin going "NOOOOOOOOO" in Episode 3 is Dramatic Chipmunk
Porgs are Doge
Rey is Idiot Nerd Girl
Kylo Ren is Insanity Wolf
George Lucas is "Can't make a bad Star Wars if you don't make Star Wars"
"I'm sick and tired of these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking spaceport!" - Mace Windu
About the Poe and Holdo thing...I recall there being a part in the movie when he even tells her she doesn't have to tell him the plan, and begs her to tell him whether or not there IS a plan. And she doesn't answer. So he is left to think that they don't have a plan, as their people keep dying and they're just sitting there not being allowed to do anything. Wasn't that how he convinced others to join the mutiny? People were losing their minds sitting there and not being allowed to help or know anything about what's going on.
If Holdo had been even slightly competent, she would have told people that she has a plan and give them a clue as to why she can't tell them, ie it will jeopardize the succession if that intel reaches the wrong ears on this ship. Because people were desperate and uninformed of anything like that, they were willing to jump on board with *someone they actually knew* who was doing something.
As for the movie as a whole, it just felt so... splintered and confused. The characters that should have formed the new Golden Trio, if you will, were split apart instead, going further and further away from each other rather than forming their own group dynamic, which they could take on new, creative adventures, as Rey explores where she falls between the Light and Dark. Finding her place in all this, as the trailer said. Finn had only sort of an arc before it was bashed to the ground by Rose, literally, and for the most comical, baffling non-reason. I liked Poe's ark in terms of theme, but like most of the film, it wasn't executed well. :(
I really, really wanted to like this film. I even kept saying "it was pretty good! well it was.. it was okay! except this thing... and that thing... oh and that thing was so ridiculous--" etc. For the duration of the movie I was frustrated and waiting for the Story to start, telling myself that "it'll pick up soon." Ultimately, it had good IDEAS but the execution of those ideas wasn't good, at least not to me, and that's what makes it all the more frustrating... the lost potential.
... oh and... thank you for coming to my tedtalk. o/
Jenny was like “I’m glad just didn’t get another Empire” and we’re in the future with just another version of Return of the Jedi just 40 years later
Heheh
Yeah about that XD
Except Return of the Jedi was good
@@DefaultProphet Except for the ewoks.
@@albertskoften1452 I really didn't mind the Ewoks, it's really just the merchandise around it that I think people got tired of like the Porgs.
Kind of late to the party, but has anyone considered the fact that Luke probably has severe PTSD after everything he went through in the OT and that when he saw that everything which caused him to suffer so much could possibly repeat itself he wasn't exactly thinking so logically?
Definitely! How telling is it that this is the most sensitive of all Star Wars movies in terms of character building, the most nuanced and emotionally realistic, and all the fanboys who are disconnected from their own feelings and empathy are throwing tantrums about it "making no sense"??
@@Qrtuop As a hero, Luke needs to be above this kind of struggle. But also Mary Sues are bad. It's confusing.
@@sonyalinkov7475 I disagree, relatable heroes are so much more entertaining. No human is above mental suffering.
@@Qrtuop Don't worry I was very much being sarcastic and pointing out the hypocrisy of some fans.
@@sonyalinkov7475 Ah haha, sorry
I love the giant porg in the background just hanging out on the bed like a bored roommate.
Andrew Rincon so is star wars dude
It looks like she murdered it and it's dead body is just laying there.
xingcat I just thought it was a big pillow. I dint realise it was a porg till you said it. Love
the porg is not bored...he just had a seizure from how stupid this reviewers arguments are.
Porg is just like "Babe, stop talking about the haters. Come back to bed and cuddle"
I loved the twist that Rey was a nobody. Completely ruined by TROS
But why? What was so twisty about that? When was it ever established that you had to be "somebody" to become a force user?
@@swagromancer I mean it shouldn't have been such a big deal to fans either way
@@matrixman124 Well, it wouldn't have been, but TFA explicitly set up Rey's heritage as a huge mystery. So of course that invited speculation. TLJ could have done literally anything with that. Instead they dropped it and did nothing. Great.
@@swagromancer I thought it was a cool twist at least. Not everyone needs to be related to someone important.
@@matrixman124 Yeah but how was that a twist when that's literally how the force has always worked? If that made the story more compelling to you, that's great, and I really don't want to detract from that. But I don't get it. Force sensitivity has always been random. Force sensitive children were discovered in all corners of the galaxy, coming from all walks of life, and taken in for training. The Jedi didn't all just train their own children, especially since they weren't even supposed to _have_ children.
From my perspective, TLJ didn't break any new ground here, but so many people seem to think it did, and that's just baffling to me.
It’s weird that so many people thought we couldn’t get further explanation of Snoke’s backstory once he was dead. But look at the terrible, nonsensical explanation we did get from Rise of Skywalker. Be careful what you wish for.
I think a lot of my issues, not just with this but other media you mentioned like Game of Thrones, comes from the fact that *clever* isn't always enough to be *good* - with Snoke especially, I understand why people appreciate the subversion, but I'm still left wondering why we've now had two films with a completely pointless villain. Snoke felt like Darth Maul to me, just this non-character whose personality and motives I don't even understand, and it's difficult for me to enjoy an unexpected outcome for a character I was never invested in in the first place.
I remember you saying the same about Rogue One, actually, and that's how I feel about a lot of characters in these new Star Wars films. I don't dislike Snoke being killed, I dislike Snoke being killed before I even understood why he was in the story. It feels like he was just there to make Kylo Ren a Sith, but that's not a character, a freaking holocron of spooky Sith secrets could have done that. So many characters feel like functions rather than people.
I liked the Rey and Luke stuff, though. That all felt better established and 'earned'.
Cryptic Corrrvus this movie just threw away all of the mythology and set up that was established in Force Awakens
So the only purpose that Disney had for the character was as a tool to subvert our expectations? How stupid.
Watching this again after Rise of Skywalker makes me sad. So much potential just blasted into atoms.
Yeah, you can thank TLJ for that. It should've been, 1 director, 1 trilogy.
Cole Pfeiffer the original trilogy had 3 directors. It should’ve been 1 VISION. Lucas had a plan and vision for the entire original trilogy, and it shows. No plan for this trilogy, it also shows.
uhuhuh1966 - No, Lucas made up a lot as he went along. He didn’t have a complete vision for the entire trilogy at all.
Markus Sarén actually he did, he tried to fit the story of Empire into the first film and couldn’t do it. He had Empire’s story ready during the filming of A New Hope and totally planned on making the sequel even if A New Hope wasn’t successful. The meat of the trilogy is in Empire with Vader being Luke’s father so he already had planned Vader’s return to the light and killing the Emperor. The only story beats that were made up were everything in Jedi that didn’t revolve around Luke and Vader...as in all of the stuff that everyone criticizes the most from the original trilogy...Ewoks & Endor, Leia being Luke’s sister, etc. The screenplay to Empire wasn’t written by Lucas so of course there were elements made up organically as it went along like Leia’s and Solo’s relationship, but “Story by George Lucas” is credited in all 3 films. There isn’t a single “Story by” credit in any of the films in the new trilogy...oh wait, except Rise of Skywalker which has FOUR “Story by” credits...🤮 no wonder it felt like multiple films crammed into one.
uhuhuh1966 - That literally goes against what I’ve been told about the OT.
"Ghost Titanic: They're Ghosts Now" absolutely needs to be a thing.
It's sad that watching this video gets me excited all over again about an Episode IX that will never exist because JJ was too afraid to try something new.
Exactly. How can the final episode be the most boring one out of all of them?
Yazzan Elhajji Because they tried to cram so much in to wrap everything up that we had almost no time to process what was going on. There’s like 5 movies worth of plot in The Rise of Skywalker.
I just think J.J. Abrams is physically incapable of making something new
He hasn’t made anything new in his entire life
You should actually read the reports of all the crap disney pulled on jj. He wrote outlines for 8 and 9 that were thrown out. They threw out the scripts from george lucas also. He asked to make this movie a two parter to make a cohesive story. They settled on a 3 hour movie instead then cut the movie to 2h 30. They forced him to make scenes to sell toys. This movie was doomed before it was started. There is a reason the other director left.
given the failed attempt and division of the fandom to unprecedented degrees, I can't blame him for retconning the trash RJ left him with
You question snakes but I wanna know where the Millenium FALCON gets it's name
They named it after a bird that is fuel-efficient, for good luck.
There are falcons on Corellia
LindsayIsExcited - Perhaps in that galaxy a falcon is an ugly flat animal that looks like a thick Earth flounder, except it expels gasses from the rear to fly, and the ship was named for the resemblance?
Falcons were brought to the planets to get rid of the snakes that got introduced through a black market pet trade
It was in honor of her first captain, Captain Falcon.
I got a special deleted scene from Rian Johnson's Patreon where Snoke reveals he's Dex Jettster.
OldThinkerTube Rian Johnson has a Patreon lol.
"Well whaddya know."
I've been waiting for you. ♥♥♥
His arms split like general grievous and he grows a pot belly. That'd be pretty scary for the kids though.
I would un-ironically love this. I love Dex.
Who's here after ep9.... waiting to see the ep9 hot take
Hi yes that's me.
Grace Cai she said on twitter it was coming out this week
I was more interested in going back and seeing that essentially all 10 of these "worst reasons" for disliking The Last Jedi seem to exactly the things that the people creating TROS went and "fixed"...
The Last Jedi was as close to a masterpiece as it was possible to make as a mainline Star Wars film. It was flawed, certainly, but it was bolder and better than anything before, and definitely since.
It was incredibly disappointing to see all these complaints Jenny laid out 2 years ago and thoroughly redressed for their awfulness, knowing what ep9 turned out to be.
I'm here after watching Rise of Skywalker and watching Jenny's review if it.
TLJ starts with a crank call, doesn't understand a fundamental basic law of physics, makes both the First Order and the Resistance comically incompetent and tries to see you on the idea that tyrannical facist organizations like the First Order or the Empire didn't control their own military industrial complex. Individually, some of the ideas were interesting, but the middle film of a Star Wars trilofy and the 8th of 9 films in a saga about a specific family and their impact on the galaxy and mythos as a whole, it didn't work.
I take issue with you Red Wedding comparison. Subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations is *NOT* good. The Red Wedding worked because G.R.R. Martin, and the showrunners, had developed Robb and Catelyn. We grew to love them. And when the Red Wedding happened, it was shocking because we cared. Not to mention the fact that killing them off changed the story completely and opened up new doors for interesting storylines and character arcs.
With Snoke however, people weren’t sad or happy. They were disappointed because they hadn’t developed him at all, and his death changed nothing. Nothing important anyway. The First Order still exists and now it’s run by another Supreme Leader. Great. Exciting.
This is why I should read comments before I comment myself. You said exactly what I did, but far more eloquently. I approve!
you're spot on. He were like a character from a sitcom whose actor happened to need to quit the show so they killed his character off or let him skip town. Super pointless & dumb...
Of course Kylo Ren killing Snoke changes the story. It opens the door for Kylo Ren, the more interesting villain, to be the big bad this time rather than a repeat of Palpatine. That's not "subverting expectations just for the sake of subverting expectations," but a substantial difference in plot and characterization for Kylo.
I'm slightly astonished that some fans wanted a developed backstory for Snoke. To me it's obvious that he's a certain class of character that may be flesh and blood but is meant to feel almost like a vision, evil spirit, devil, or nightmare figure--like Palpatine in the original trilogy (an apparition of the dark side with no developed backstory), the Joker in the Dark Knight (an apparition of chaos with no developed back story), Anton Chigurh in No Country for Old Men (an apparition of death with no developed backstory), or The Pin in Rian Johnson's own Brick (an apparition of a criminal underworld just beneath the surface of polite society). The figure is supposed to have an otherworldly and nightmarish screen presence, as if they came from the abyss; explaining their backstory isn't essential for this kind of character and can even ruin the effect.
We might not care for Snoke (or Palpatine, or the Joker, or Chigurh, or The Pin) in the way we care for the sympathetic characters killed in the Red Wedding. But we do see Snoke--a vision of the dark side's consummate, overconfident lying--unexpectedly defeated (and replaced with a different kind of villain). To me it's an interesting effect, like a nightmare that has indomitable power while you're asleep, but is ended swiftly by waking. The point Jenny is making is that just because something subverts expectations or fan sensibilities (I thought Snoke was going to be the big bad! I crave a backstory for Snoke! Rey needs to be a Skywalker for my Star Wars experience to be complete!) doesn't mean it's bad.
thyru I too watched Jenny's video and can repeat her points.
+Devynn Hageman If you read my comment and/or watched the video, I made a lot of points she didn't make, especially with regard to certain type of character (Palpatine in the original trilogy, the Joker in the Dark Knight, Chigurh in No Country for Old Men, The Pin in Brick) that doesn't have a developed backstory because it's unnecessary, or the least important part about how they function.
+Flynn42z Why is Kylo Ren not interesting as a villain? He's an unstable combination of contrasts (composure vs. rage, sociopathy vs. vulnerability, formidable vs. incompetent, subservience to the past vs. forging his own way, even ugly vs. handsome) such that it's unclear which traits will dominate in a given scene or in the end. While Rey's fate is not clear to her as she lacks a legend to train her or parents with a pedigree in the Force (since she lacks easy answers about her "place in all this," she must chose her own way), Kylo Ren's fate is not clear because although he has Skywalker blood his inner turmoil could send him down different paths. The two are similarly alone in their struggles to find their meaning, and hence understand and are vulnerable to each other in a certain sense. In TLJ we see Kylo side with "forgetting the past" to forge his own way, and what isn't interesting about a villain wanting to scrap the First Order and form a new empire with Rey?
Is the Joker not having a backstory in The Dark Knight a "plot hole"? Is Chigurh not having a backstory in No Country for Old Men a "plot hole"? Is Palpatine not having a backstory in the original trilogy a "plot hole"? The original trilogy actually does have a bunch of *real* plot holes and events that don't make any sense but I forgive it because it's a fairy tale in space with a lot of dream logic, not a crime thriller.
As for "most" long time Star Wars fans hating the movie, I don't believe anyone has actually counted. I know a bunch of Star Wars fans who enjoyed the movie and appreciated the very things some fans complained about. My mother has been a Star Wars fan since the time of the original trilogy, has read a lot of the Expanded Universe books (I was introduced to the EU through her little personal library), and she liked TLJ. Surely TLJ is more polarizing than it could have been, as it tries new things and had reveals that some fans didn't want, but as Oscar Wilde said, "Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital."
You cite "Lack of story" and "uninteresting characters," but I read a lot of books, and watch a lot of movies and TV shows that have far more sophisticated plots, characters, and themes than any Star Wars movies (including original trilogy), which--like LotR, or Harry Potter-is a fairly simplistic tale of good and evil. But I still like Star Wars, LotR, and Harry Potter; and found TLJ's story, characters, and themes surprisingly good for Star Wars. If you didn't like it, you're of course entitled to your opinion. But many of the complaints I find quite ornery, and just as easily stated by critics of the original trilogy. "Lack of story, uninteresting characters and all the dumb things" was basically the argument of the critic John Simon (contra Siskel and Ebert) to claim that the original trilogy was low grade stuff for children that makes children dumber than they need to be (video footage of their exchange is on UA-cam). In his 1977 review Simon charged episode 4 of "story, characters, and dialogue of overwhelming banality," "trite characterization and paltry verbiage," and "Star Wars will do very nicely for those lucky enough to be children or unlucky enough never to have grown up." If you can show that such criticisms as his are unfair or too cranky, I believe that I can show the same for TLJ. The movie has flaws and messy bits but it didn't cause me to not like the movie as a whole, and some of its elements that I found questionable or weird at first started to add up to me and improve the longer I thought about them.
The comparison to the Red Wedding is not good at all. The Red Wedding is there to subvert many tropes, including that of the young, dashing, good king trying to avenge his familly and shows that actions have consequences. The Red Wedding takes about 2 seasons and 2 books to build up and is a direct response to the actions of the characters.
We know nothing about Snoke. It's not even a good bait and switch. His death and the manner of it came out of left field but with nothing to support it.
Also The Red Wedding is good because it means something in the grand scheme of things as well as from an emitonal level. That's how you use shocks. Snoke's death gives us nothing. The First Order is still rolling, Kylo is still a bitch and we don't give a shit about Snoke since he has like 10 minutes of screentime.
REDinitial I said same exact thing...very poor analogy
Oh my god, thank you! You took the words right out of my mouth - I was ready to type out quite a comment explaining why Snoke's death is nothing like The Rains of Castamere.
The Reins of Castamere is a whole nother debacle where Tywin wiped off the face of the earth 2 entire vassal families for trying to undermine Lannister rule and still managed to have good PR about it. The song of the name you just quoted was played during the Red Wedding because it symbolises Lannister domination and reminds everyone who's boss in Tywin's eyes.
But going back to Jenny's point. Shock for the sake of shock is not a good device nor it is good writing. And unexpected events do not give narrative satisfaction just because they're different. You need to take the time to actually understand and show an audience why a trope is a trope and what you're trying to achieve by deconstructing it.
You don't just hang it on the ceiling and shoot it in the head.
The most scared of any villain I've ever watched was when I was like 6 and watched Matilda in theaters. Mrs. Trunchbull was scarier than anybody!
honestly same
oh my goooooood i remember that
True
*yeets small child over fence by hair* le what ze fuq
Child Catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang!
If you don’t like the Star Wars fandom’s opinion on something, just wait 10 years.
Watching parts of the fandom try to force themselves into loving the prequels to justify hating TLJ is probably the only fun thing about the backlash
@@2012CBJD I don't know, it was funny at first but now it's just sad. People legit think Attack Of The Clones was GOOD.
@@2012CBJD I liked the Prequels even before the Sequel films. The Sequels went out of their own way to let me down. Hard to even call them sequels, if anything they are more like a soft reboot of the original Trilogy but horribly wrong.
Adam Berta ikr
@@bogzbiny RIGHT? I rewatched the Attack of the Clones a few months ago and it's even worse than I remembered, I feel like I'm in the fucking Twilight Zone with everyone suddenly claiming the prequels are amazing now. They're not, I've seen them with my own two eyes! I know what I saw, damn it!
The difference between Game of Thrones and the sequel trilogy isn't in the extent to which they subvert expectations. The difference is one is character-driven and written well, and the other one decidedly isn't.
Exactly. Game of Thrones can pull the rug out from under you all day because you love and care about the characters. It's a huge shock when we see what happens to Ned, and then much later to Rob, but it all feels like it makes sense in the context of the world.
This movie just screams at us "LUKE IS A MURDERER" without showing us how he got to that point. It's an enormous retcon of the character that makes no sense, in the context of this movie or the grand scheme of things. This is a character we all watched redeem his father, something that the galaxy believed was impossible. And now he's willing to murder his nephew in his sleep because he had a momentary lapse in judgement?
Terrible writing.
It's funny how the top comment here makes a joke about her being a disney shill for the likes and the presents from big cinema.
yet that actually is true and what she is.
Yeah there were clues and set up spanning three books before the red wedding, including prophesies and plenty of foreshadowing. These Disney dumbasses led by Kathleen Kennedy and her mostly female story crew were too busy congratulating themselves on adding diversity, that they didn't even plan out the major plot arcs of the three movies. That is just shitty lazy writing to the nth degree. They need to be fired, and this chicks video was mostly retarded. Go cuddle your stuffed Porg like a little kid, while the rest of us will stop paying for this bullshit product.
@@Arcexey fun fact, it's actually not true and complete bullshit.
The most vulgar cuss expression in the SW universe is "I have a bad feeling about this".
No, it's clearly "You're a (insert adjective) snake!"
Don’t forget the handful of times Han exclusively said hell.
I think some Star Wars fans don't care about the narrative of the actual films, they just want more and more complex trivia to memorise and obsess over.
Those fans are literally the only reason why the force awakens exists. Those who care about the actual narrative prefer it ended in episode 6.
Yes they are just copying ESB to fans obsses over.
@@timy9197 And that the prequels never exist, or at least aren't so obsessed with the minutiae. We don't care about midichlorians, we don't wanna know what a clone war is, we didn't need to know about fucking *_trade routes._*
They want more entries on Wookiepedia. Basically all burgeoning George Martins
@@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786 I dunno, I have to respect a guy who goe,s "Time to make a prequel to my space adventure, lets make it about trade routes!"
Like, it's gutsy at least
the sequel trilogy is a good example of bad improv
ep7: a bad setup/premise
ep8: yes, and!
ep9: no... but.
I'm absolutely convinced Phasma can't be dead. I mean, a literal exploding planet didn't kill her, the Hound didn't kill her... what's space got on either of those?
I want phasma to die in each movie without accomplishing anything of note. Naturally in more and more extreme ways.
In the next movie we see her get dissolved by a disintegration rifle and she turns up fine 20 minutes later with no explanation
I Don't Care That would be better than what we got lol.
So yeah, about Phasma...
a cursed cat if Palpatine wasn’t dead, no one’s ever really gone
Luke could not kill Vader if he tried? He had Vader on the ground and literally disarmed in return of the Jedi. He could have easily killed him then but chose not to.
Yup...scrolled down too far for this
If he had killed him like that he would have fallen to the dark side that is why he stopped and choose not to. He did try to kill him in Empire before he knew he was his father and he failed getting his hand chopped.
I used to think this chick had some knowledge...after this video I realized she is just another shill defending this corporate star wars so she can get her precious "premiere tickets" for free. Sad when people sell out.
Luke had a fleeting second where he believed he should kill Kylo Ren because of what he did, and then ditched the idea, I'm not sure why people think all doubts about your philosophies in life dissapear at the first sign of success. Also an addendum, Luke didn't have any real connection to Kylo other than his best friend's kid, throughout RoTJ Luke talks about bringing his "father" back. He didn't turn himself in just because some random guy fell to the Dark Side, he wanted to save his dad.
His nephew
The Palpatine/Snoke comparison isn't really valid.. We knew Palpatine had at least 3 Episodes of history. Snoke however is completely MIA for Episodes 1-6 and just eats a Saber in 8 with not even the slightest hint of backstory (unless they do a Snoke spinoff.. I guess?)
It's perfectly valid. When the OT was released between 77-83, there was hardly any form of exposition to establish how or why he came to power; audiences just accepted the fact that he was this big, two-dimensional baddy and that was good enough. Only with the prequels and other extended universe building through other canon did we learn everything about him. The point is that everyone can give a free pass to the complete lack of character building for Palpatine in the OT, and yet tear Snoke apart for the exact same thing.
Well, when one sees a Galactic Empire, one wonders
where's the Galactic Emperor?
Palpatine probably got a free pass because there was no context for where his power could have come from. No one knew anything at all about before his rise, so there was no interest or confliction about his rise to power. Snoke on the other hand is living in a world with 6-7 movies and a tv series all detailing the world before his rise. It's a lot more relevant than it was for Palpatine. Fair enough if you don't think it's important, but I do think it's very different.
We didn't need backstory for the Emperor because we didn't see the setup for the war in the original trilogy. When you set a story after it, the audience expect some explanation of how things came to be after the heroes won, such as how the first order came to power, where Snoke came from and who he is. They haven't fulfilled these things, Snoke's death was not a clever bait and switch playing on our expectations based on character and events, it played on our expectations based on the expectation of information we had not yet received. The surprise wasn't earned, it was lazy.
adsjj1 Its fine that they haven’t fully explained Snoke and the first order’s rise to power in this movie,the story isn’t over yet. I feel like people forget that this is a preset trilogy and we still have another movie to go. They aren’t just making this up as they go along the story has been generally outlined for years now and the creators have had in mind where they want this trilogy to go. So maybe they were planning from the beginning to save the Snoke and the first order’s rise to power explanation for episode 9, we don’t know we have to wait and see.
My point is the story isn’t done and not knowing Snokes back story right now doesn’t make this a bad movie or take away from his death. He is purposely designed to be a two dimensional character cause what’s important about him is not who he is but what his presence means for Kylo Ren(mainly) and for other characters . Also just cause Snoke is dead now doesn’t mean we won’t find out anything new about him. We the audience don’t know his back story but the characters do, so there could easily be a scene where it’s discussed, Snoke doesn’t have to b alive for that to happen.
As for explaining the first order’s rise it was kinda already explained in TFA( just not that well). The resistance was started because the republic wasn’t taking the threat of the first order seriously enough or something like that. So when TFA starts it seems to suggest that the first order isn’t controlling things to the same extent as the empire was in the original trilogy. The empire was all that was in power, but in TFA the republic is still around while the first order is gaining power. Then the first order blows up the republic, which kinda cements this power grab. So I think now the first order is all there is. TFA kinda hints to these things as like an introduction. TLJ puts things on hold in regards to explaining the war going on in order for us to get to know the characters better. And hopefully episode 9 will bring it all around with more details as to the first order’s motivations and how that affects the characters.
Keep in mind too that too much explaining can be bad. This movie is trying to focus on it’s characters and having the plot grind to a halt so that someone can sit down and explain in detail Snokes backstory doesn’t add anything or affect the characters in any emotional, personal, or thoughtful way. It only serves the audience (who just wanted their silly fan theories to be true) and not the overall story. Which is the point of a movie, to tell a story. Too much explaining and exposition if not careful will just turn this into a fictional documentary, just a visual list of facts about a made up universe. I’m sorry but that’s kinda boring and I’m not sure people realize that that’s basically what they are asking for when they complain about a lack of “backstory” in this movie
Rey's parents being nobodies was honestly the most unique thing they did. God please don't let them change that, the most cliche thing possible would be to make her a Skywalker or a Princess or some crap like that.
Also, it shows you that the force belongs to everyone, not just a few elites.
Yeah, a Jedi being a nobody is so unique and different. It's like, we can finally have a cool story where a literal nobody like, oh I don't know, a moisture farmer on some backwater planet becomes a legendary Jedi! Ah man, that would be SO. COOL.
@@SteamGrace Well yeah, it's better than her being the long lost sister of a Skywalker and the chosen one, yeah I think it is less cliche absolutely
She is a palpatine
The force belonging to everyone was, I thought, the most important part of TLJ. The galaxy seemed to be headed to full-on class war in the next movie. My main fear is, JJ is not competent enough to pull that off. Lost taught us that he shouldn't be allowed to finish stories, even the ones he began.
@@Jimmymatthewb The Force has always been for everyone. The Jedi were never allowed to procreate, so they would search for Force-sensitive babies to train as Jedi. The Skywalker lineage was an aberration because Anakin had children with Padme.
They saved the animals instead of the enslaved children :-(
Wilbur Walsh and they're the ones who are going to clean it all up.
At least they're employed?
This is actually a fair point....
There were only two of them and what, they bring them back to the ship so the first order can kill them?
Ever tried riding small child? They can't carry shit no matter how hard you whip them!
Plus they're eventually going to catch those animals again anyway. Saving the animals was a complete waste of time. It was just there to push for animals rights.
The reason no one cared about who the Emperor was in the original trilogy was because he didn't play a major role - he was just a story telling element in the first movie and didn't even become relevant until the 2nd and 3rd so there was time to build up his character, he didn't really need a back-story. Snoke however, was responsible for turning Kylo to the dark-side, founding the First-Order and was made a major player from the start of this new trilogy - just having "some guy" corrupt one of the most powerful Jedi's kin isn't good story telling.
That and he wasn't even set up in episode 1 (or 4)
That was also over 40 years ago when there were two-three movies out. No shows and no internet.
Spot on. Its like this chick has only seen The Force Awakens and no other Star Wars movies ever. or she's brainwashed into blatantly loving this new movie.
Jenny, you don't understand! If snoke had said he was Darth plaguis, mace windu, and or jar jar binks, that would have validated my childhood of watching revenge of the Sith 10,000 times.
Perfect comment
What I love about this comment is that you said: "And or Jar Jar", so maybe he can be Jar Jar and Mace Windu!
I think the revenche of the sith fans will be happy enough now:"the dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unatural.
@Oscar Guerrero the movies suck dude
"this will stop them from repeating tropes in the third movie"
JJ: "hold my beer"
"I was comfortable telling people they will like it"
You made the mistake of not realizing star wars fans hate star wars.
"you made the mistake of not realizing star wars fans hate shitty star wars movies." -- fixed it for you.
They hate Star Wars so much, and vice versa. They're an abusive couple.
@@Keihryon So the fans hate almost all of the movies? Because if we're going by the fans' thoughts, the only good star wars movies were the first three and that anything that came after that is sh***t. Spinoffs, sequels and the prequels are all included
@@techno639 For the movies, yeah. But there is hours of other Star Wars material that is adored by fans. KOTOR, the game and the comic series. Rogue Squadron, the books, comics and games. The Jedi Knight series...etc. The difference between what i listed and the shitty movies? Good story telling.
@@Keihryon Its just that star wars started out as a movie and the most popular side of sw is the movies which is ironic because around 70% of star wars movies are hated by it's fans
A couple of notes...
1. Kylo Ren is a more interesting character after TLJ than he was before. That said, he's by no means "unpredictable." If anything, it's pretty obvious how he'll react in just about any scenario. If he gets his way, he'll remain calm and stoic. If not, he'll lash out like a petulant child.
2. "Going around blowing things up in an X-Wing isn't the solution to every problem." Except, that's exactly what kept the Resistance alive long enough for their eventual plan of escape to succeed. Had Poe not taken out that Dreadnaught (I'll get to that disaster in a moment), then the First Order would have had a ship capable of taking out the remaining Resistance ships.
3. Poppins Leia. Among the problems with that scene were that it breaks established canon for The Force. Now, before you get your hackles up, I'm not really doggedly stuck on canon. But, if The Force were able to do what it did for Leia, then several pivotal events in previous films are suddenly broken. Anakin should have been able to survive being engulfed in lava unscathed. Palpatine should have been perfectly fine after being thrown down the shaft in the Death Star. Additionally, does The Force also protect the user's clothing? She was caught in a massive explosion and there was not a scratch on her nor a tear in her outfit. Also, TLJ takes place, what, minutes after the end of TFA. In TFA, it is established that The Force is seen by the vast majority of people as a myth. The Jedi and Sith have been gone long enough that people have forgotten it. Yet here we have this woman getting blown out into space by torpedoes, flying back to the ship, and no one seems the least bit fazed by this. Finally, from a storytelling standpoint (and this is merely a personal thing), I think it would have made more sense for her to have died in that moment. Kylo couldn't pull the trigger to kill his mother, but his decision didn't change things. She still died. THAT would have had more impact both on the viewer and Kylo as a character.
4. The opening joke. I have no issue with there being humor in Star Wars. But that was just bad. It seemed written by someone that hadn't ever seen a Star Wars movie and wasn't aware that it wasn't about Earth culture. The Han Solo radio conversation in ANH made sense because it fit in the context of the scene and the universe in general. The "Can you hear me now" bit at the beginning of TLJ did neither.
5. Hux as a slapstick comic relief character. Again, I have no issue with comedy in Star Wars, but Hux was pushed WAY over the edge as comic relief in TLJ. To the point that no one would believe that he was in the position he was in. He just wasn't credible.
6. The question of scope. This actually starts being a problem in TFA, but is brought to a head in TLJ. How big is The First Order? Because of events in this film, we're pretty sure how big The Resistance is. But we have absolutely no idea the scope of The First Order. One would have assumed that most of The First Order was obliterated on Starkiller Base. That was a MASSIVE installation with an equally massive staff. Other than that, we have no idea how big The First Order is.
7. Luke's philosophy vis a vis the Light Side/Dark Side of The Force. Luke spends a decent amount of time tearing down the notion that The Jedi and Sith are either one what they're cracked up to be. Pushing the notion that somewhere in the middle (the grey, one might say) is where the truth lies. Loved that. Loved all of it. Would have loved it even more had the movie not tossed it out like Luke did his lightsaber. At the end of this movie, we still end up with the Bad Guy (Kylo) vs. the Good Guy (Rae). Their motivations are exactly the same (well, HIS aren't, at least), but they're still black hat vs. white hat. Any potential new ground was neatly tamped down into old tropes.
8. Minor quibble, but side quests when there's a real time constraint bug the bajeezus out of me. Are you ever playing an open world RPG, your character beset with a world-ending cataclysm on the immediate horizon, and you set out on your hero's journey to gather the necessary items/persons to prevent the apocalypse, only to find yourself gathering some rare flower from the top of a mountain because in your journey, you encounter some old woman that needs the petals of that flower to make the detergent she needs to wash her bawdy husband's clothes? Yeah... that's how I felt for a good portion of Finn and Rose's excursion to get the slicer dude. "But it was all worth it" to save those horse dogs. At least until the rich folks send their servants to recapture them about a half an hour after those events, at least.
9. DJ. So, let me get this straight... This dude is chillin' out in a jail cell for who knows how long. Apparently able to leave whenever he feels like leaving. But he waits for our characters to get tossed in the same cell. Characters he's never, ever met. Characters he has no reason to trust or even like. He waits for that moment to leave. Why? Along those same lines, why bother with the whole "look for the dude with the flower on his lapel from The Leftovers - he's the only one I can think of that could possibly do what you need done" thing, only to undermine it with the DJ character? They make the job seem nigh-impossible, then make it seem like something that any number of people out there could do.
10. Characters routinely do just stupid things for no good reason. Two examples... Finn and Rose get away from the samurai cops on the casino planet by dropping down into the sewers only to leave their escape route obvious to the most casual passerby by leaving the manhole cover half off? Really? Who does that? Also, after getting everyone into the base on Crate, and not expecting anyone else to show up, they leave the door ajar so she can take in the sights until their pursuers arrive (and they KNEW they were coming)? Why? To create dramatic tension. Which is a bad reason. If it's the only reason and it doesn't make any sense otherwise.
11. Self sacrifice - a good thing or a bad thing? Arguably the only thing of note that came out of Rose's mouth was her line about "don't kill the ones we hate, save the ones we love," after she saved Finn from crashing his jalopy into the Death Star canon. Yet, Holdo just killed thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of "the ones they hate" in an act of (pointless - see below) self-sacrifice. Does Johnson want us to applaud self sacrifice or decry it? The message, like the one about light/dark is muddled.
12. The Finn/Rose "romance." I don't think I've ever seen a less well developed romance between two characters in a movie. Maybe something like The Room. These characters barely knew each other by the end of the movie. They had nothing resembling a romantic attachment or romantic chemistry throughout the whole film. And suddenly Rose is in love with Finn at the end? Again - bad, bad storytelling. Finn had far more chemistry with Rae in TFA.
13. This isn't my final problem with the film, but it's my biggest, and I'll leave it on this one. The MAIN PLOT of the movie makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever. We'll start with the bombing run. It has been previously established that both the Rebellion/Resistance and Empire/First Order (presumably) have zero g bombers. The Y-Wing and the TIE Bomber are just that - bombers. And their bombs are, as can ONLY be in the vacuum of space, propelled. So, after the bad joke to start the film, we're introduced to these... things... that The Resistance has for bombers that move at a snail's pace and "drop" bombs from a bay like a WWII bomber on earth. There's no gravity in space. These things shouldn't work. Small quibble? Perhaps if it were the only one in this "plot." Next, we have the Resistance ships on the verge of running out of fuel. That's also not how zero g travel works. You throw your engines to maximum power, then turn them off. You continue on at that same speed until you run into something that slows you down (the gravity of a planet, say). There's no fuel being spent, so there's no fuel to run out of. And even if that were not the case, why wouldn't The First Order simply send some ships through hyperspace to cut off the last couple of Resistance ships? BAM - movie's over in ten minutes instead of the three-four hundred it seemed like it was. Furthermore, as the Resistance ships began "running out of fuel," they began slowing down (again - NOT how things work in space) and, worse, "falling?!?!?" To what? There's no gravity. Even if they didn't keep going at their current speed and direction, they wouldn't fall. Furthermore, why did the pilots of those lagging ships stay behind? There was no good reason for it. They could have transferred to the main cruiser when they were about to "run out of fuel" and not had to die. They served purpose on their ships at that point. And, for that matter, why did Holdo have to stay behind to ram the First Order fleet? Surely they have droids capable of such a simple maneuver. And, if such a maneuver were an option, why not employ that at the outset? Take out that fleet at the get go, then you don't have to worry about the fleet tracking you through hyperspace. Again, movie's over in ten minutes instead of three days.
When I walked out of TLJ, I was merely kind of "meh" about it. But as time has passed, and more and more plot holes have become apparent, I've become convinced that it's a bad, bad movie - just from a story-telling standpoint. And it's a TERRIBLE Star Wars movie. I had issues with Rogue One and TFA. R1 dipped into the fan service well entirely too often and the end seemed forced (no pun intended). TFA adhered too doggedly to the themes and structure of ANH. But both, at least, were competent at telling a cohesive story that made sense. TLJ was a hot mess of a story and Rian Johnson seemed far more concerned about killing the past than telling a good story.
It's a movie that's merely _okay_ while watching, and then gets worse the more you think about it.
If the video games let you use the force to increase the speed at which you run, and the height at which you can jump, I see no reason why you can't pull yourself through space, what with there being no gravity to counteract the pull of the force. Just because Disney threw out the previously established canon doesn't mean anything that happened before that is wrong.
Sam Dunham I agree. Rian wanted to kill the past more than he wanted to make a good film.
The fuel thing is a pointless thing to mention since star wars has never been good with actual science. There is no sound in space, so the space battles should be completely silent.
Plural Kumquat personally I'm more annoyed about how stupid it looked than anything.
The problem with the B plot was the fact that it made half the film
1) less entertaining, at least for most of the people I talked to.
2) Completely counter productive.
3) The turning point was never on screen. We literally never see them tell the dude about the other plan. He thinks this is the big rebel plan and he'll be rewarded handsomely, so his motivation revolved around not knowing, and the climax grew out of him learning, at some point, and we never got to see that, and that's a problem.
N8 DJ was definitely in the room when Poe was loudly telling Finn the Resistance's plan.
Insert Creative Username I'm not remembering that, but even so, that still falls under my point. We should have seen DJ's reaction, even a little bit of it. This could have worked perfectly into the themes of the film: failure, trust, attempts to redeem, and so on. They trusted him with the information, and it didn't work. That could have been told in a way that fit perfectly in everyone's arcs, and heightened that part of the film to integral to the overall message. Instead, the audience has to figure out when he learned something that should have been a turning point.
The ending is very odd, characters celebrating and ends on a high note even though like 90% of the resistance just died and it should have been a very solemn moment
But what if I happen to dislike both Rogue One AND TLJ, but for different reasons?
Also, Kylo Ren's mom, Princess / General Leia is dead, he's got no connection there.
There's no way around it (which is sad, but true).
They have missed their opportunity to give this character a dignified death, now they have to kill her offscreen.
Snoke was starting to become an interesting character, chessmaster / manipulator, but then *STAB*!
Clever, so clever. Wonder if General Hux does the same to Kylo Ren in 9, would that be as clever?
Episode IX should just be this constantly, to the point where at the end it's revealed that it was all a nightmare that Luke had after eating too many burritos.
After seeing The Rise of Skywalker I love The Last Jedi. I liked The Last Jedi already after seeing it, but I was a little dissappointed back then. The Rise of Skywalker is just a mess.
I like the Last Jedi and I boycotted The Rise of Skywalker.
I think Disney royally screwed up Star Wars films but that's not to say that they're not entertaining as just movies in themselves. TLJ is an abomination but I don't mind watching it. It is entertaining LOL
I was actually really happy they didn’t make Rey’s parents someone important. Like I was really hoping they weren’t going to do something as predictable as making her a Solo or a Kanobe.
Yeah, could you imagine if they did something that dumb :/
Ha ha... ugh.
This didn’t age well
Oh my.
God. I have to stop reading these old comments because it's actually demoralizing.
Don't watch the end of this video, there make be snakes!
*it's a trap*
RIP Admiral Ackbar 2017
Watch out for snakes!
My shields can't repel emotions of this magnitude!
"The villians are just a lot of really unhappy people just crying and blowing up planets for no reason" this actually has some truth to it haha
I overall liked the movie, but I thought during the part where Laura Dern was in charge, it felt like the movie wanted us to be on Poe's side, and then be wrong. like, the subversion felt a little forced there. and Rose... the actor did great with the lines. the lines were terrible though. I put that one on the writer.
I think that's was the objective. Wasn't it?
@@Blorbobaggins I was on Poe's side at first for sure
That was the problem; the writing and directing set it up so that Holdo appeared to be an obvious traitor so that later Johnson could fake out the audience with a swerve; “aha!! She WASN’T a bad guy after all! PSYCHE!!” I liked the theme of failure all through the movie and that Poe had the rug pulled out from under him... it just could have been written and directed better. On the other hand; we got Laura Dern actually saying “PEW!” as she comes out of the smoke and fires her blaster, so that was awesome!
To be honest, I felt that it was pretty obvious that he was in the wrong and that she would end up as the one being correct. 1. He starts out the movie with ignoring Leia's orders which ends up in lots of people getting killed. 2. He acts all powerful and in control even after he has been demoted. 3. He acts against the person that is a strong ally of Leia and acts in their best interest. In the end I was just waiting for him to fail 'cause everything else would have meant that his hubris and his "going against the orders of people we are supposed to trust" would result in him being rewarded for his reckless behaviour... which would have been a really weird lesson to take away from the movie.
@@KaworuNagisa I felt the same way, but I think the problem here that a lot of people have, is that you DO get that message in a lot of films, especially movies about war, superhero movies ect. the common message is: our hero is right to disobey the orders, because the orders are stupid. but as jenny said in the video, this movie is about failure, so the hero is not right, and the orders are not stupid, so obviously he is not rewarded, but that is not the way many people expect it to go. and that is why I think so many people didn't like it, because it doesn't give them their "the rogue hero is awesome" narrative
I mostly agree with your criticisms of the criticisms. I still didn’t like the movie though, for two reasons:
1. Failure as a theme is an interesting choice, but when basically everything in the movie happens because all the characters keep screwing up, it’s just not entertaining to me. More cringe-worthy.
2. The tone was all over the place. One example was Luke tossing his father’s lightsaber over his shoulder. This felt like taking a serious moment and trying to play it as a cheap gag. Another example was the ending. 99% of the Resistance died. Why is everyone so happy!? “We have everything we need.” Say what? That ending felt more like a bizarre wake than a cliffhanger. It shattered my suspension of disbelief to such a point that I almost didn’t care what happens next.
Two things I did like: The connection between Rey and Kylo Ren was riveting and watching their relationship evolve was hands-down the best part of the movie. Also, Ren killing Snoke and taking over the First Order means he’s finally achieved something Vader always wanted to do, but never could (overthrow the Emperor). That was a great character development moment for Kylo Ren.
My $5.
Aw man, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the movie. I feel you on the tone part. I don't necessarily agree with it being 'cringe' though.
Your criticisms are of the film itself (which is valid) so hopefully it doesn't hinder your experience of Star Wars as a whole too much.
@@paigel8136 I maybe 40% enjoyed the movie. There was a lot of really good stuff in there, it's just that the stuff I didn't like was too hard to ignore. I had the same issue with Attack of the Clones back in the day. On the whole I still really enjoy everything Star Wars.
@Salmon I just don't buy that Luke would have that much animosity. As for the ending, I just can't get past the fact that so many people died in this movie, and nobody is even acknowledging it on-screen.
@Salmon I think Plinkett did say that too. For me it was Leia's line "we have everything we need" that didn't really make sense. I get why she said it, I just didn't find it believable. At the end of the Last Jedi, it just didn't seem plausible that the small group left over would have any hope of ever challenging the First Order. It broke my suspension of disbelief, kind of like in The Force Awakens when Starkiller base shot out a beam of light that somehow traveled faster than light and was magically visible to everyone (pretty much the only thing in TFA that took me out of my enjoyment of the movie... I thought the rest of the movie was awesome).
10) Snoke has more inpact on the sequels than anyone else not only did he lead the First Order but he caused Kylo to fall to the dark side. He is the entire reason for this conflict. He was also set up as the big bad guy he was descirbed as being ancient which lead people to wondering who he was and what he was doing during the previous trilogies. The red wedding was a good thing to do because we were attached to the charatcers involved. If the re wedding had happened the episode after ned stark died it woudlnt have had anywhere near hte same impact. Robb and Catelyn also didn't die giving awful dialogue that nobody would ever say unless they are about to get betrayed. Seriously who talks like that ? had kylo not betrayed him then people would be complaining about how out of place Snokes monolgue was. What charatceristsic does Snoke have that aren't just Sidious but worse and/or less interesting ?
As for your point about sidious not having much backstory in the ot the ot was an original story and narrative in a fictional universe that it was building. The sequel trilogy is a sequel to an already established fictional universe. A continuation. It's a flowing, continuative tale that's being told here. And Snoke is just suddenly... kinda there. Who these people are and how they came to power, I think, is an essential part to this continuative flow, especially since they're succeeding prior characters and groups. And it wouldn't necessarily require much time. But despite that we still get more back story on sidious in ANH Tarkin says "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." So from that we know the galaxy was once ruled by the imperial senate all the way back to the old republic which old ben refers to with Luke. We know Sidious took all of their power and influence for himself. They could have put that sort of information in the crawl or had snoke say something to Rey while bragging it would seem more natural for someone so arrogant that shouting "I CAN NEVER BE BETRAYED!"
5) I havent seen anyone complain about her having the force, ive seen people complain that she is able to do something that would be beyond even windu and anakin (who were in a similar situation in TCW and would have died had R2 not gotten help) Have her use the force in basic ways thats fine. Nobody complained about Leia sensing Hans death but having her protect herself fomr that massive explosion so she only gets ko'd rather than blasted to pieces then fly back to the ship like superman afterwards is ridiulous. Rewatch a clip of order 66 Jedi council members die from much less and they all have decades of training.
4) When Holdo first met Poe she immediatly starts insulting him , which is what created friction between them in the first place. Imagine if you got a new boss and he/she started insulting their subordinates withtin the first minute of meeting them...thats completly incompetant especially when that perosn you are insulkting is not only your best pilot so a very valuable resource but a hot head. She then puts him in a position where he assumes she's making certain all of the resistence will either die or be spread out across the galaxy with no way of finding or communicating with each other. Poes lesson was blindly follow those of a higher rank even in the face or certain doom. Even when Poe asks her what her plan is she just nervously looks away like she didn't have one (to make the audience assume she doesn't), if she didn't want to tell him for whatever reason she could have at least acting confident. Poe didn't leak the information he's a long time supporter of the resistence and risked all those peoples lives because he was so desperate to do damage to the first order. Poe in that regard is one of the most trust worthy people.
2) I get the B plot from a story perspective, but from a practical perspective, they wasted an hour on a boring B plot and the only point of it was to subvert audience expectations and have a very hamfisted message of learning from failure, not that finn and rose have anything to learn from really...don't trust strangers even when you have no other choice ? don't try to save the resistence when you think its doomed ?
Ultimately by far the biggest flaw with the film is Luke, though that could be spread out into several flaws like Luke giving up, not caring that Leia and the resistance were going to be doomed in a few weeks, not trying to redeem Kylo ect
banethesithari Luke redeemed himself in the end though. He told Kylo he was sorry that he failed him, he told him the Jedi weren’t ending, and he clearly knew that he was saving his sister and rest of the rebel’s by distracting Kylo. Also you could tell he was unsure of himself giving up because he backed away after he decided to burn the Jedi tree and was shocked when Yoda did it for him.
#notmylukeskywalker
Ethan Willis Luke still left the galaxy for years while the first order prepared to conquer and take over the galaxy, he still didn't even try to redeem kylo or get Leia and Han to try and redeem him, he still completly failed to rebuild the jedi order, he still forgot the lesson he learnt in ESB about how if you believe something can't be done that is why you fail, he still didn't even say anything or hesitate when he found out Leia and the first order couldn't last more than a few weeks, he still lost a fight to Rey and kylo
The B story with Finn and Poe was bad because the plot drove the characters, not the other way around, like Finn suddenly knows how to pilot, because the plot needs him to abandon ship, the B story was full of that kind of thing.
In the final scenes of TFA we see Leia, Poe and Rey all chillin together around the map to Luke Skywalker. In the final scenes of TLJ Poe goes over to Rey and introduces himself. Did RJ even watch TFA???
The fact that as a viewer, you think "Luke would never try to kill Ben" is a *good* thing. You're *supposed* to feel that way. Your sense that Luke is losing what makes Luke "Luke" is one of my favorite things about this movie, because he isn't perfect! This movie did something movies almost never do, they showed a hero from an earlier movie dealing with his own legendary status, and hating himself for failing to live up to it. And the thing about Rey realizing what she knew all along that her parents were nobodies is a great thing, she stops trying to define herself by how great her parents were, she's gonna define herself by how great *she* is!
Sean Albro “Search your feelings, let go of your hate.”
Luke is the guy who turned vader (the personification of evil) into the light, but you’re telling me that he was going to kill a member of his family because he sensed darkness in him... what the actual fuck?. You’re saying that subversion is good in this film, which is not, because subversion is not inherently good, you need a good reason to make it good; the reason they gave to luke was beyond stupid btw...
Angel Hernandez The moment Vader mentioned turning Leia (someone he loved) to the dark side, Luke ATTACKED Vader in a moment of pure instinct. He slashed at him and there was NOTHING in the way he was coming at him that told us as the audience he wouldn’t kill him. He even cut off his hand. And then, by seeing his hand, he saw what he was doing and THEN decided to not follow through. But he tried to kill him first. The situation with Ben was not “He was GOING to kill him because there was darkness in him”. It was that he went to confront him, saw the FUTURE. Not just darkness, he saw what was going to happen BECAUSE Ben had already turned to the dark. He saw the death of everyone and everything he loved and THIS time he could stop it. With Vader, Vader already did his terrible deeds. With this situation he could stop it before it happened. And so, in a moment of instinct (similar to with Vader), he ignited his lightsaber. And then IMMEDIATELY knew it was wrong and that he couldn’t, and immediately felt shame and remorse. But Ben saw him and it was too late. I don’t feel like you can say that that was him “Trying to kill his nephew for having darkness in him”.
All caps moments aren’t to be aggressive, they’re for emphasis
Luke was a hero sure, but he wasnt some kind of mythical figure in-universe, the 'legend of Luke Skywalker' doesn't actually exist to anyone but us viewers and since the EU doesnt exist Luke isn't anymore legendary than Lando so Luke not living up to his legend is moot point as there is no real 'legend' to live up to.
What utter nonsense. This make makes no sense in terms of character. You’re telling me that Luke would consider killing his nephew based on bad feelings? Luke didn’t even bother to search his true feelings. That moment might have passed but what kind of person would dream of having a Luke that would wield a lightsaber over a boy while he slept? Apparently a maniac who only wanted to assassinate his character (thanks Rian)
I couldn't tell you why I don't like the Last Jedi. I really just didn't feel it. But some of the complaints that i've heard are outlandishly stupid
That's something I can understand. That's like the truest form of film being subjective. And being someone who loves TLJ and hated TRoS, I can definitely appreciate that more than weird points some people argue, but really just out that they didn't get the point of Star Wars in the first place.
I didn't like any of the sequels really. The first one was just A New Hope II. The second movie didn't have much of a plot beyond subverting expectations. Some subversions would have been fine but I don't think Rian had ideas beyond messing with the plot threads JJ set up. The third movie was JJ throwing a temper tantrum at what Rian did to his work. And big, giant space battles. All three movies were visually nice and hit several emotional beats... but there's no depth. The emotional beats don't hit for me the second time. There's nothing in it to make me want to rewatch it.
@@tiryaclearsong421 Visually yeah in TLJ I really disliked the throne room right because it was poorly done, they used very bad takes. I am disabled and because of my chronic pain I can't engaged in a lot of physical activities but I have always loved sword combat so I love watching it and studying the choreography of it. And almost immediately into that fight there is a flub. It was either Daisy mistimed, or the guard attacking her mistimed. He swings at her head when she should be below it and he thankfully adjusts and avoids hitting her, but he has to very noticeably move his sword up and over her head to avoid bashing her head in with this piece of metal.
That was a bad take to use and it made me start immediately analyzing for other small mistakes and there are at least two more. The kick she delivers to one guards chests that sends multiple flying even when they are standing to the side of the guard that was kicked. If they wanted it to be a force push (which would work) give it a physical cue. And during the cutting back and forth between Kylo and Rey fighting the guards when Rey is being pushed by the one guard with two sword blades suddenly it cuts back to her and the guard has only one and is almost immediately killed off by Rey who had up to that point been getting her butt kicked. I am fine with Rey pulling off some cool move and getting the win but.. what happened to the other blade? How did they change positions so much that it let Rey go from being on the defense and being pressed down by the attacker to being able to take them down. Thats a good moment to show in a sword fight, the storytelling of a sword fight is important and showing her overcoming a foe that is clearly more superior skill wise would make a lot of fans settle down in how omg awesome Rey.
I do have an issue with her only knowing about the force for 2-3 days MAX and being as strong if not stronger in the force than Kylo and Luke and easily defeating them both and the novelization for The Force Awakens (Which was consulted with Johnson) was just lame. In the canon book she effectively uses her connection to the force to copy and paste every force ability kylo has into her own mind, as well as access all the other force powers Kylo hasn't learned yet. So she was playing with cheat codes on.
Snoke was totally a red herring. Even his throne room and his guards, it was literally all red.
Thought I could smell fish.
Snoke is Admiral Ackbar confirmed
I couldn't agree more with pretty much everything you've said here. Especially your points on Kylo, and Luke's temptation.
Blindly Fumblin Okay
@James HorvatTLJ is a good movie.
Never mind that she has a Kiwi Farms thread?
@@ZVlog1120 True, if you ignore the plot holes, bad writing, and corny jokes. Especially the bad writing
@@ZVlog1120 Yes the last jedi was a good movie just like the last season of game of thrones was the best lol.
You’re right. Rey’s parents didn’t need to be important. The problem with Rey (and this is coming from a guy that defended her character in TFA) is that she is great at everything for no good reason. Compare the fight between her and Kylo in TFA and her fight in the throne room. Those two scenes probably take place a few days apart, yet her fighting skills have, somehow, increased. She got no real training, nor did she get anything interesting to do.
Make her a former student of Luke. A student that was left on Jakku and mind wiped in order to forget the trauma of Kylo killing everyone. The age would sort of fit since Ben is like 10 years older. Her parents could’ve still been nobodies, but in this scenario, there’s reason for why she can suddenly mind control and use the force so effectively. I enjoyed her character and Daisy’s acting in TFA, but TLJ really let me down, because it highlighted how overpowered and uninteresting her character actually is.
Nobodies? What does that mean?
My theory is that snakes aren't real, they're just a cultural thing that everyone ascribes attributes to, and everyone kind of wishes exists, but doesn't.
It's a similar situation to ducks in Warcraft: Rubber ducks exist, references to ducks exist, but no evidence of any non-fictional ducks exists in the worlds of Azeroth or Draenor. But here's where things get weird. Obi-Wan Kenobi at one point in the novelization of A New Hope references a duck, and Luke says that he doesn't know what that is. Obi-Wan brushes this off and tries to change the subject. This clearly indicates three things:
1. Obi-Wan Kenobi has been to Earth, because
2. Ducks don't exist in the canonical Star Wars universe, and that shows that
3. Warcraft is set in the Star Wars universe, they've just achieved closer metaphysical resonance with the abstract concept of a duck than the Core Worlds.
This has been my TED Talk.
it's similar to dragons in the Wheel of Time. there's a key historical figure called Dragon, and has imagery associated with them that is recognizable as a dragon to the audience, but the actual creatures don't exist
I’m sorry you’re wrong go back and watch Return of the Jedi. Luke defeated Darth Vader in their duel and had the opportunity to strike him down yet refused to do so threw his own lightsaber aside and risked his own life believing that the good inside his father would shrine through.
Which in that spur of the moment he did so using the powaaa of the dark side...not as a Jedi
Right. Just like in The Last Jedi, he had the opportunity to kill Ben for the greater good and ended up not doing so.
Think about. It was like the end of episode 3. Another darth vader could come, killing all of the other jedi. After everything Luke had done, it would be happening all over again! Imagine that feeling.
549 Nation that’s the point. The relationships are different. Whereas in Vader Luke saw someone he could bring back to the good side, in Ben he saw someone who was rapidly slipping through his fingers. The people from Anakin’s past couldn’t help him, only a new relationship with Luke could. The same is true with Kylo and Rey.
I liked Rogue One, I love Kylo Ren & I think Last Jedi is better than Force Awakens (I prefer films that make moves & tells a story instead of creating a bunch of unanswered questions for the sake of sequels). You can't label me Jenny! Or can you? Try to label me in the comments below.
~ｃｏｎｔｒａｒｉａｎ~
UniCom I think the best 2 Star Wars are episode 5 & episode 4 & my least fav are all the prequels. Am I a contrarian?
Finn's arc is also about founding purpose. He didn't want to be in the resistence he was gonna leave just so he could help Rey stay away from them when she decided to comeback. But by the end of the movie he's so commited to the cause that he refers to himself as rebel scum and is willing to die destroying that weapon in order to save everyone. Finn finally has something to fight for.
Vader kills Dumbledore Finn sometimes feels like the token black character, he could be taken out of these movies and not much would change
Rose won't let him though.
Ah, the toils of married life!
I know I'm late, but...honestly, it didn't need to take two and a half hours for Finn to learn that lesson while going on the least interesting adventure in all of Star Wars filled with nonsensical plots where they free animals but not the slaves, they go looking for the one code breaker they can trust and somehow find one literally in their jail cell. Or parking a ship in the beach of a large city like they'd never heard of a space port before.
Welp, with the benefit of hindsight "The theme of The Last Jedi is failure" seems absolutely spot on, LOL
It's interesting that these points were made giving the story the benefit of the doubt that the third movie was going somewhere
At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke had his lightsaber inches from Vader's throat, and had just chopped off his hand. Vader was holding his remaining hand up in surrender. Luke was perfectly capable of killing Vader, but he chose not to. This isn't my opinion, it's what literally happened in the movie.
This comment deserves more likes. Jenny Nicholson pulled a Quinton Reviews.
Vader was unbalanced during his fight with Luke on the Death Star. If Luke was just some random Jedi, Vader could’ve have beaten him, but their familial relationship pulling Vader to the light was enough to give Luke the edge.
Ten seconds before that luke had been frantically hacking at an already-defeated Vader's neck though?
Jack White I agree that Luke defeated Vader, but it wasn’t because he was more skilled or powerful in the force. Luke was smart by taking advantage of Vader’s pull to the light which is why he won
@@TheSquidVideos sorry, should've specified that I was responding to the OC, not to you. I thought it seemed a bit much to say "actually luke didn't try to kill him" and then reference the point in the film directly after luke stopped trying to kill him
Hot take:
In Star Wars cannon snake means handsome gentleman.
But have you looked at Adam Driver's face?
Ryan Gallagher-Burkholder Wouldn't be a good hot take without a little controversy.
You've got a point there.. hot take approved.
Your Rise of Skywalker video helped me discover your channel, and watching these videos in the reverse order is both entertaining and kinda sad lol
Asian are smart, SW:TLJ are bombed in China.
Also if Leia is a good leader, she should just hold her feeling for the greater cause.
She is a general now and she can remorse later.
Did you miss the part where Leia is a complex character with complex feelings? I know, surprising, right?
Star Wars was never a big deal in China. No surprises there.
Snake... Snoke... OH MY GOD, SNOKE WAS THE SNAKE ON DAGOBAH, NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE
It would explain his strength in the Dark Side; he had so much time to observe Yoda and learn the intricacies of the Force.
This should be the new "Jar-Jar Binks was intended to be a Sith Lord and the ultimate antagonist".
"A snake am I? I'll show you how SSSSSNAKELIKE I CAN BEEEE!"
"He could sacrifice himself and die" YOU KNEW and u didn't even blinK whAt okay but that really hurt
The last movie villain I was actually afraid of was Heath Ledger’s Joker in the Dark Knight.
you mention the snake thing, I on the other hand found it odd that they said "God speed" several times
Jack Slack yes! The dialogue was way too "slangy" and had too many linguistic references to Western Civilization. It took me out of the film several times. When Yoda used the phrase "page turners they were not" I was like, "when did they all suddenly get hip?"
"Rian, people in Star Wars have a different mythology than we do. They don't actually know a "laser sword" by any other name than a light saber."
"Gotcha, so we'll just have Luke call it a "beam katana", right?"
I agree with so much of what you're saying and I'm glad others did like the movie but I have to disagree with you about Holdo. Regardless of what she tells or doesn't tell Poe, there is no reason for her to withhold this information from anyone. This isn't a secretive mission they're just running for their lives and everyone is scared and doubting that she has a plan not just Poe, that's how he manages to organise a mutiny so easily. If Holdo had just said to everyone, 'look we are going to get out of this and this is how' then everyone would have been far more at ease and the plan would have gone off without a hitch because Finn and Rose wouldn't have gone on that casino mission and gotten captured, granted though idk what they would have done with those two characters in this film instead. Also I'm not saying Poe is blameless because he was rash and insubordinate, just that Holdo shares some of that blame.
I'm curious however what was your opinion on the whole Rose saves Finn thing because 'they'll win by saving those they love' or something to that effect, because I thought that was dumb as hell because by sacrificing himself that was exactly what Finn was doing, saving everyone else, who he loves. Minor point but it annoyed me.
I feel like she didn't need to do that much. She didn't need to reveal what the whole escape route is, but just give any kind of sign that there was a plan. Poe was worried about the apparent inaction of the leadership of the Rebellion so he acted brashly, but if he knew that there was a plan, any plan, to begin with I don't think he would have.
Poe would have been like "hey we're in a pretty precarious situation right now and you don't seem to be doing anything about it" and Holdo could have said "don't worry, it's under control I have a plan" and I think that would have been enough
Many videos have already addressed this point, but I'll sum it up here: They don't make it as clear in the movie, but when you rewatch you can get the broad idea. So the Rebellion make several comments on how they don't know how they're being tracked through lightspeed. This leads them to infer that there's a spy on board. Holdo basically is taking every possible measure to ensure that the plan can't get leaked to the First Order. Had Poe told Holdo "Hey we discovered this, we just need to do this and we're good," then Holdo would've been like "Oh that's a great plan, good work. I'm proud of you. There's no spy after all whew!" Instead, Poe goes with the rash decision of sending two untrained people to retrieve this hacker dude because he believes they're the only two he can trust.
When Finn and Rose get to the casino planet, they screw themselves over because they act rashly and don't park where they're supposed to. That's literally the only reason why they get arrested and end up with the one guy who betrays them instead of the hacker dude they were supposed to get. Then this new dude betrays them for money. And thus everything goes to shit.
^Guarentee someone's going to say "That's not summing it up." To which I respond with: 30-50 minute video or two paragraphs? You pick.
@@shaelynmartin1996
If Poe was a spy, don't you think they'd have tapped him for "don't blow up Starkiller base" rather than some convoluted mop-up operation?
@@CruelestChris I never said Poe was suspected of being a spy, nor has anyone ever said that. It was pretty clear Poe wouldn't have been the spy based on the interaction Leia and Holdo had after the escape in regards to Poe. The issue was the fact that they acknowledged that Poe didn't think things through. He acted before thinking of the consequences. If they let him know the plan, how could they be certain that he wouldn't tell the "spy" their plans because he trusted the "spy"? Again *they don't know how they're being tracked through lightspeed*.
@@shaelynmartin1996
If they'd told him the plan there would never have been a spy in the first place. And if he acts without thinking, having him think there is no plan is the worst thing you can do, since he'll try to come up with his own. This _happens_ in the movie, for God's sake.
Also, why don't they consider Leia's tracking device which can signal to Rey at any distance might be how they're being tracked?
My problem with rey isn't that she's nobody, it's that they hinted SO hard in force awakens that she is someone then tell us she's no one in last Jedi
Justin Snyder They hinted that she was likely strong with the force, not that she has any connection to any previous Star Wars character. You made that idea up in your head. Daisy Ridley herself stated that the answer to her parentage (Basically the biggest question on everybody's mind) was clearly answered in TFA. It was finally confirmed in TLJ. I understand why that might disappoint somebody, but in my opinion, I love that she is force sensitive, but has major flaws as a character at the same time and DOES NOT have to be connected to a Luke, Obi Wan or Palpatine in any way, shape or form.
What I got out of the reveal that her parents were awful nobodies that never gave a shit about her is that she, just like any other young child with force sensitivities, has it within herself to formulate her own destiny. She doesn't need to be defined by her past, each struggle is a stepping block to reach her true potential. ☺
warrior1795 no, there were 2 scenes where someone asked, who's the girl, then cut away, the joke with bb8 about big secret, there was no hint about her force abilities, that was blatantly obvious, the hint were all about who she was, literally everyone I talked to after seeing tfa was, so who do you think rey is? You're lying to yourself if you didn't wonder who she is after tfa, I really don't care that she's nobody, but there were more than one slaps in the face to jj Abrams in tlj, reys lineage being one
Justin Snyder That was simple misdirection then. The characters wanted you to think that her lineage had this huge importance to her story, but that did not end up being the case.
And the map, what the hell happened with the map?
Except that she is "someone"; she's the last motherfuckin' jedi.
Ok, you've convinced me about Luke's temptation. I guess in a movie if you don't get to the point of actually holding the lightsaber over your target some audience members may not understand what the temptation was.
PS/EDIT - I loved Last Jedi, that just stuck out to me.
Days later... My brain keeps coming back to Luke's attitude at the end of RotJ, "I will not fight you"/"I know there is good in him". Would someone who once withheld violent wrath from another obviously deserving of it, made this sort of mistake we got? The thought might cross his mind, but I don't see him getting the point of holding a lightsaber over him to make the kill.
This same dynamic could have been achieved and portrayed more subtly if Kylo was simply force-aware of this passing thought of Luke's directed at him which made him afraid and unsure of being around this teacher. And this connects to the new force-ability that lines up with his Rey force interactions.
Alternatively, what if Luke's mistake was not destroying Kylo. Now this only makes sense if Kylo was utterly unredeemable so it would change everything. I think this creates interesting conflict for Luke to deal with and learn that some people might just be evil. After his success with his dad, it follows that Luke's issue could be inaction against evil, waiting for it "come around". (Understandably a weird theme for a kids movie.)
@@DavidBehlman You brought up Luke's refusal to fight Vader, but if we are going to use that as a precedent remember that Luke went completely crazy when Vader threatened Leia, screaming and swinging wildly at him in a rage, cutting his hand off, and nearly killing him. Meanwhile in TLJ, the guy is seeing an actual vision of the future where the person in from of him is directly responsible for the deaths of trillions upon trillions of innocent people and all of Luke's loved ones, and even then the fact that Luke even considered killing him for half a second fills him with incredible shame. Literally any decent human being would at least have the thought.
@@ellieporter3270 no
@@ellieporter3270 I know this is a year old, but as someone with a contentious relationship with my dad, and with little brothers who I watched and grew up with, the closest analogue I have for helping raise a nephew, the dynamics of those relationships are so far from each other that it irks me to see it treated similarly. No amount of in universe context is going to change that.
Luke lashing out at Vader's threat isn't the same as his reaction to the force vision because neither his relationship with the person nor the person are actually the same, and maybe using the force as a catch all works for discrepancies, but for me, that didn't translate to my experience outside the screen.
I still dont like that movie, but you've helped me hate it less and given me a new perspective. Thank you
"Lying/murderous snake" is the new "meat's back on the menu"
Tbf If I heard and org say that in battle I'd shit my pants
Danny De La Cruz That’s because you live in a world where menus exist and orcs don’t.
My big question is, if Rey is no one, daughter of no one, and there's no past history between her, Luke or Kylo (like it was speculated), why does Kylo freak out at the mention of "a girl" in TFA? Why is there a mystery conversation between Han and Yellow Yoda Lady about Rey's identity?
Because nobody cares about continuity! *sound party whistles*
It’s cute seeing her thinking this movie will get followed up on and not retconned in the next movie