Modes vs Barry Harris method for improvisation
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- In this video, I explain why I don't use modes in my approach to jazz improvisation. Instead, I advocate for a simpler approach incorporating what I learned from Barry Harris, focusing on major scales, dominant scales, and harmonic minor scales to navigate through various musical situations
▬ Contents of this video ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
0:00 Introduction
0:55 The Modes
2:43 What to Do Instead
6:01 Dominant Before Minor
👉*Jazz skills membership & a full free lesson* My site for members with hundreds of categorized tutorials, webinars, learning tools and individual support. Suitable for all levels.www.JazzSkills.com
Thanks Shan, as Doc. Emmett Brown said in Back to the Future "Modes? Where we're going, we don't need modes".
You win the top comment so far! 😂
Thanks for the lesson! My jazz sax teacher taught me the mode-chord approach back in the day using Aebersold recordings. It wasn't until I got to college and took some western music theory classes where I finally learned how the major scale works in progressions. At the same time, I discovered a lot of fusion jazz uses the mode-chord approach, so as you said in the video, using modes really does depend on the tune.
This is such a brilliant video! So well explained. Very happy to come across your channel.
I agree with this; excellent video. At some point I had a revelation: understanding how to link and approach chord tones was far more helpful than learning modes. I started writing my own 2/5 lines... And this was far more useful than thinking in terms of the Dorian mode etc
Good stuff Sir. And you got me learn this tune. One more standard in my repertoire
This is literally what I’ve been looking for, for the longest time!!! I’m sick of hearing people talking about modes as if it’s somehow a more sophisticated way of playing. I think about the key I’m in, and how the chord I’m playing is related to that key. No modes and no mess 😂
> how the chord I’m playing is related to that key
In that context a mode is simply a chord but with all the extension notes.
Beautifully explained and I'm in complete agreement with this approach!
really great video
I’m so glad UA-cam recommended me this video and that I discovered your channel! I never got the chance to meet Barry Harris, but I always wanted to study his method. Thank you! Please keep making these amazing lessons!❤🙏
Thanks a lot, for this lesson and for all your auggestions. Clear, simple and effective.
Years ago, in my early days, I asked my teacher, the wonderful Joyce Collins (RIP) teacher of piano improvisation at the Dick Groves School in LA, about MODES she replied "they are nonsense they teach at the music schools to make the inmates feel that they are getting value for their money. Honey, when you are racing through Cherokee at 180bpm with a bebop group you never played with before, the only MODE you will experience is sheer panic!"
Thanks Shan, the only real teacher of piano on UA-cam!!!!!
good stuff - thanks!
I love these short bite sized videos. It’s explaining key elements of an approach, that many find unlocks improv by simplifying it. But it’s part of a wider set of skills that interrelate. I understand why people say it’s semantics and just another way of describing the same thing, but this way allows the Barry H movements and chord relationships etc. so the way you think about it can open or close doors. At the point you are playing with freedom over a tune you know well, probably very little of this matters you are then trying to play what you hear, but this sort of approach helps to make that connection between head and hands.
This is very refreshing and breaks the mold regarding using modes!!!
Great video! Thanks!
Shan, you're the man. This channel is gold.
Thank you so much for being here!
Great and simple explainations from a players point of view. I studied this at college 30 years ago, just refreshing myself - subscribed! :D
Tremendous. The most based approach to modes I've ever heard.
Loved this!
Thanks so much for this. Ten thumbs up for Barry Harris’ ideas
Enlightening, thank you Shan!
Glad it helped. Thanks and stay tuned!
Thank you ! The less chords , the more likely you can drone and therefore it is a mode.
With more chords...it goes towards a 'song' , the more information is present and the likelihood of a moving bass line too, this points to a KEY.
The language of Keys is great as it is.
Thank you for condensing it all into one video, even though I play guitar and am not a deep jazzer.
Thank you,JS🌹🙂⭐
Exactly how I've been feeling about modes for years!
terrific thank you
Your videos are soooo on point. I have been looking for this type of content for so long. Thank you for sharing your knowledge in such a clear and humble way too. Regards from Barcelona!
Hello Barcelona!
Perfect explanation, and exactly how I think (don't think) about modes. This video is now my #1 go to now to explain modes to my musician friends. And spot on about use of the harmonic minor & dom7 scale/arpeggio. (& to be honest, I'm not comfortable with diminished scale... I think of it more as a way to reach the upper extensions of a dominant). The only thing I'd add is the minor pentatonic since it doesn't establish a key center and, therefor, a nice crutch to fall back on when things get fuzzy.
Thank you Shan for all the excellent videos. I was lucky enough to see, hear, and meet Dr. Harris about 10 years ago. He gave a live trio concert and masterclass, but I was too inexperienced to fully grasp the concepts. I've made more progress on the piano in the last 2 weeks watching your videos than I did in the past 10 years (I'm primarily a drummer). Once I pay off my car after this winter is over, I'm aiming to subscribe to the premium lessons. Much love from Detroit (Barry's home) and happy holidays!!
Hello Detroit! How nice to hear from someone who met Barry. I am delighted and humbled that you have learned so much from these videos already and I hope to see you here on Jazz Skills in the future. Much love and happy holidays!
I'm very happy with this video. I totally agree with your explanation. I never use modes, except in true modal jazz (where in fact a mode means something different), and never felt the need for them. I tried because so many promote them (perhaps just repeating what others said), but it disturbed my musical thinking while improvising completely. Modes are something that were added to jazz, maybe for educational reasons, but this was a huge mistake. UA-cam is plenty of misleading videos, including about modes. Thank you for publishing something of good quality.
Finally, i understand what modes are. Thank you.
The reason i like to think of modes rather than the parent scale is because sometimes i like to bring out those modal "colour tones". For example if I'm playing over the 3 chord in a major key, i can lean into the flat 2 built off of that chord to bring out a "phrygian feel" while hovering over that chord.
you had me in the first 2 minutes and 19 seconds. I feel validated and vindicated thx.
I love this video. I play a lot of contemporary non-jazz stuff that lends it self to thinking more modally when soloing. I've always felt intimidated by soloing over jazz standards tho, and i think this video might explain why
Well thought out and explained. You just earned a sub. Thank you!
Welcome aboard!
You are a great teacher
Thank you so much 🎷💙
That was reeeeeeeally helpful, thank yoo
Top presentation
Thank you
An important part of the sound of improvisation lies in the rhythm and many beginners do not realize this. Placing the correct notes on the downbeats is vitally important at the beginning. Saludos
Indeed!
I have always taken this approach as a jazz saxophonist. One thing to explain to beginning horn players is that you have to learn chords just as well as a pianist or guitarist. You will understand this as you start to learn how to target chord tones using different approach methods... enclosures, chromatics, etc.. Mark Levine wrote in "The Jazz Theory Book" that a beginning improviser can learn how to improvise jazz using these four scales: Major, melodic minor, diminished, and whole tone. Harmonic minor is the obvious 5th scale to add to your vocabulary... using it the way demonstrated in this video... a dominant chord which is the V of a minor chord.... for example if you have E7 leading to Am7, use the A harmonic minor scale (targeting the chord tones or alterations of the E7), but don't use the A harmonic minor on the Am7 because the Am7 has a flat 7th. Of course you don't have to use this approach every time, this is just one approach that most people like the soud of. I also love using modes of the harmonic minor scale on Latin tunes. There are many Latin songs where you can use one harmonic scale mode over the entire progression. I use the word mode, but I'm not worried about labeling which mode it is... for example in this simple two-chord vamp in a Latin Song: E7 Fmaj7 the A harmonic scale works, but of course if I am playing on the E7, I will not target the note A as a held note, but I will target the note A when I am playing over the Fmaj7 because I understand the chord tones of each chord. Of course, the obvious two scales to add to your vocabulary is the pentatonic scale and the Blues scale. I much prefer the simple method described in this video, rather than over-complicating with all the modes (it's just semantics... but it's semantics that way over-complicates).
"the Am7 because the Am7 has a flat 7th" - That doesn't sound right. The Am7 has a flat 3rd. The A7 and Am7 dim on the other hand both have flat 7ths...
@@Snarkapotamus You are right... the Am7 chord has a flat 3rd and 7th. I was pointing out that you can not use the A harmonic minor scale on the Am7 chord because of the flat 7th on the Am7 chord. The A harmonic scale uses the raised 7th.
You quickly figure these things out with your ear also. You can actually use the A harmonic minor scale on the Am7 chord a little, but then remember to flatten the 7th if you sustain or target that note.
Oh, I see that maybe you didn't realize the Am7 chord has a flat 7th. Yes, m7 chords have a flat 7th. Here is a minor chord with a natural 7th or raised 7th: Am(maj7).
I've been studying the pedagogy of Barry Harris through one of his former bandmates for the past two years and I've really seen a dramatic improvement in the PRECISION and CONCISENESS of my playing. I went to Barry Harris's NYC Workshops 3 times and got to shake his hand once. Thank you for putting out these free videos, and even more for your website.
What really "grinds my gears" is when some other UA-camrs try to introduce Barry Harris to the masses. I won't name names, but the description goes something like "Barry says just play the V" or "here is a very cool chromatic scale from Barry." Great! Here's your diploma from uni ;)
Actually, there is another great resource for Barry Harris--Things I've Learned From Barry Harris. Chris Parks is a great teacher who really embodies the teachings of Barry--you two would resonate A LOT. Unfortunately, some just watch his most popular videos and think they've got Mr. Harris all figured out--they DON'T. Barry Harris is one of the few OG's to teach us newbies how to play the movement of bebop! I think I could study Barry's concepts my whole life and still learn something new everyday--he was that deep!
Thank you so much for your kind comment. It's always a pleasure to meet someone who met Barry and understands the value of his work.
nice vid pal
The modal chords have the 4th and 7th degrees of the major scale, so D Dorian in C is. D mn 6, not D7. Modal chords are unique to a key (only C major has a D mn 6). The modal chord defines both the major scale and degree of that scale uniquely. In terms of Barry Harris, a D mn 6 has its own “Barry Harris” scale, so you can do the same sorts of things one is used to with his ideas. Where I find modal chords particularly useful is in thinking about melodic minor chords, as a D mn Maj chord is D Dorian with a +7, an F Lydian Augmented is an F Lydian with a +5, and so on. You just take the modal chord from C, and add a C# to it. Makes it really easy to learn melodic minor harmony that way.
I like the analysis, and second the notion of Modal Chords. I like riffing betwixt two major chords 1/2 step away (i.e. A maj to Bb maj 7) and discover all the micro tensions availed between them. ~Interia
Well said !!!
You are precisely correct in terms of not needing modes for improvising major and minor key-centered standard repetoire. However, when you get out of the iii-vi-ii-V-I jail and move on to non-functional harmony and beyond, this approach will not work.
The other application for modes is composition. Overtones are generated from the root of the moment. All the other vertical intervals are measured in relation to that. It’s inescapable physics. You inadventently admitted this when you said that a minor 7 chord could be from one of three keys (different scales, aka different modes). If the progression is Gb maj9 - Dmi7 - Eb7+9, which version of Dmi7 would you use? And would relating it to one of three major keys really be helpful?
I learned a lot from Barry Harris years ago when I had a memorable 8-hour beatdown😁. However, Barry’s approach isn’t the only one.
Helpful
I like your lessons, I get a lot even as a beginner
What about licks and techniques to get you out of a situation that you put yourself in? Would be great to hear about those and in what context or before what chord.
Really agree with this approach, which as you say when I saw Barry explaining it made a lot more sense than focusing on Modes. As you say, knowing what key you're in and where you are moving to and from within the tune allows improvisation that resolves as expected
If you combine modal jazz with chord tone soloing you get the same effect really. If you’re thinking about what the chords are you can highlight or alter the chord tones by superimposing modes over those chords. Miles Davis uses modal jazz in his soling approach.
Thanks Shan..This is my positive comment..
haha thanks Patrick!
Thank you, Barry I appreciate that his approach is a way to simplify things. I also learned that the modes were derived from the maj scale. Working on standards with ii V, both major and minor, this concept of how the chords are related to the key helped me simplify my concept of how to improvise. As far as the diminished chord, he describes the chord tones in the diminished chord itself as being approached from a half step below. I found you can look at it as finding notes a half step above the dominant (V)chord triad which is going to the I minor, and they also will resolve to a I major like in the song What is this Thing Called Love, I also found that the minor iv chord (in the ii V )functions the same as the ii minor 7b5. I like the harmony used in standards and realize that modern modal Jazz is another thing to explore I hope I can get there someday.
Lose the lack of self esteem, there is nothing wrong with the materials you are using. There is no destination or inevitable progress in art. People still write snd play music like that, just not as many, and not in the top 40. I think standards harmony is a historic achievement, with its own parameters and limits of course. Modernism pushed the idea of progress as a necessity... that is capitalism not art.
Wonderful impression of Barry's voice
I'm pleased to say that he also imitated my voice once or twice! :)
That must have been interesting!@@JazzSkills
I think Barry Harris’s influence is felt more in the educational world than recorded work. I think functionally in the end every good player ultimately develops their own thing that works best for them.
Agreed. As a young aspiring jazz player I started collecting records in around 1973. I heard Harris and even bought one of his records back in that era, but he never made much of an impression on me. I mean there were (and are) SO MANY fantastic pianists back then - Hampton Hawes, Wynton Kelly, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, that I really didn't "need" Barry Harris, if that makes sense. I'm not saying he was a lesser player, but I have to say I was surprised about a decade ago when I heard so many younger players taking everything he said as gospel.
@@southtxguitarist8926
You might be the only one I’ve heard of who bought a Barry Harris record.
Yeah it’s kind of like buying a Mel bay record for guitar. 🤷♀️
@@lawrenrich-nf3ni Haha! That's hilarious.
thanks
Makes a lot of sense to me.
In my town, the best guitar player around worked at a pawnshop and I used to go in there and ask him a bunch of questions about guitar and theory so one day he invited me over for a lesson… to make a long story short, he ended up drawing out all the modes for me, and telling me to get that down pat before I call him for another lesson…soooo I practiced them to death and went back to the pawnshop and when he asked me how it was going I told him, rather disappointedly, that yeah I can play them BUT it just sounds like I’m playing the major scale the whole time? To which he replied yeah…you are…..🤷🏼♂️🤔
except the root is different which gives it a diffent feel
😅😅😅😅.. Funny
The thing about modes in non-modal jazz is that they aren’t really being used for their specific root based feel, as they are super imposed over some chord in a progression, which means if you are playing jazz where the harmony is very ii-V-I based (most jazz), its not really all that different from just playing major and minor scales. I guess its closer to modal mixture, which really can just be thought of as a form of chromatically altering major and minor, since you are still staying very functional if you are playing more traditional jazz. I feel like modes are useful when you know the sound of a mode and you want to invoke it. Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian all have very very distinctive sounds and really can be distinguished from major, but in the context of jazz i don’t think you’d hear these sounds typically, the modes really end up being just scales. Shapes that you use, but they aren’t functioning such that the root note is actually home, so its just not the same thing i feel. Seeing different takes from teachers and hearing them play, i think its just different approaches. My teacher doesn’t think about modes a ton, and instead is thinking more in the barry harris style. I think having understood what he means, it seems like if you are doing ii-V-I stuff there is a way to lean into a certain kind of functional harmony that is typical of jazz, and the modes are there to kind of fudge and alter that functionality, but if you don’t have the core of the functional relationship down, then using modes might just kind of sound diluted. Im really curious how the avante garde jazz musicians think of it.
Play it again but keep the root note the same for each mode. Then you’ll hear the difference easily.
@@djbrady Exactly! I swear people encourage doing it the other way for nefarious reasons.
"Modes" seems to be "the Holy Grail" for many people. So often I read questions about this subject in Forums...
But in *tonal* music (major-minor, functional) there is no mode. Either music is tonal *OR* music is modal (like renaissance-music eg).
I agree that mentioning "you must know modes" at every chord change, is a silly idea. Because that was never taught in the Classical composition either, for over 200 years. Jazz was the continuation of the Classical tonal approach, not the modal approach. Let's illustrate with your example above: They say Dm7 is also a chord in D Dorian mode (scale). Yes, but, so what? In the D Dorian scale, its position is not II, but it's I, so it's functionally different. If you treat it as a chord from the Dorian scale, you will mess up the feeling of the piece and it won't sound authentic. It's similar to saying, "This man is my dad. In the afternoon, my dad works as a policeman and it's best if I don't visit him at work in the police squad". It's the same person, a dad and a policeman, but with two very different functions. If dad comes home in the middle of his shift, in full uniform and with the police's car whining, his family will freak out - what went wrong? The same with chords; we access only certain _functions_ of the chords, and the function is dictated by the original scale (dad), not by the accidental mode (policeman).
That's why Barry Harris said that the same Dm7 chord is not the same; the notes may be the same, but in different scales it has completely different _function_.
Makes sense to me
Totally agree about the context of that Dm7 chord (as iim7, iiim7, vim7) and using C, Bb, F over those, but I think there’s value in character tones of modes such as b6 of relative minor which might get a little more emphasis under Aeolian mode. We know tempo plays a huge role in these decisions to use Ionian over specific modes. Also modes can be played over other chords ( FM7#11 over G13 or Bm7b5 to E7. I realize you know these ideas. I just think they’re worth mentioning even for beginners. Thanks
I tried explaining this to the Piano player I play with and he looked at me like I was insane. He’s from the Barry Harris school of thought and I’m more from the Miles David modal jazz approach. Neither are mutually exclusive and both have merits.
Exactly, these are just more tools in the box. Tempo, harmony dictate.
Something to think about: The best selling jazz album of all time is Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, which is credited as the first modal jazz album. It was a deliberate decision by Miles to move away from the bebop formula of using complex harmonic and melodic variations of the Great American Songbook and using the sonorities of the modes instead to improvise with. It's a different approach to playing jazz, and, George Russell notwithstanding, is problematic when you try to adapt it to bop style changes. IMO it comes down to fitness for purpose. If you're playing a modally conceived tune like So What? or Maiden Voyage the modal approach is the right tool for the job, but not if you're playing Confirmation.
Yeah but kind of blue is full tension created by boppy 5-1 lines … the players clearly play a lot of bebop language just stretch it more.. I think it’s more about the way the compositions are moving harmonically
@@s.b.5036 Yes, I'm in total agreement with what you're saying. If the stories are true - and I haven't read the book about the making of the record - Miles brought these tunes/concepts into the studio when they recorded them. There's no way the players could completely divest themselves of their tried and true improvisational language, so a lot of it still sounds bebopish, particularly Cannonball. There's also the fact that Freddie Freeloader basically has nothing to do with modal playing since it's a blues and Wynton Kelly's playing on it and not Bill Evans.
@@southtxguitarist8926 exactly
There's nothing like hearing your theory become actual musicality 🎶 instead of some Phygian modus operandi exercise, love the lessons you offer . .~ INERTIA
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and hope that your playing is going well.
Thank you. I learned and play only by ear and I find the modes tiresome as a real world playing style for me. I can just hear where things are going and know what notes are in play in the root key and outlier chords. Very similar to what you are teaching here! Thx.
My favorite thing was how stoned Eric Johnson was on the rick beato interview .
What he explained was simple but true" you have to think in different positions, and figure that out by just knowing the notes"..."if you know the notes even when your going fast, there are a lot of notes going by" 😂
Barry Harris is the least post modern teacher. It's actually quite refreshing to hear someone say "This is wrong, This is right".
Great explanation. Maybe all this mode-madness comes from a lazyness to look ahead and really analyze harmonic surroundings. In a way, it’s so much easier to just shoot out your dorian licks and stuff the moment you see a min7.
Never been a fan of just fiddling as fast as possible, but the mode method is a clear invitation to show off your scale exercises rather than creating a nice line.
So thank you. I will explain it this way in the future.
As a simple minded blues musician I sometimes look at those chords that are not diatonic to the key and instead of thinking, “what scale do I play here,“ I think, "what notes are in this chord that are not in the key."
So for instance in your example the E7 - Am, instead of actually thinking of the A harmonic minor scale I might just keep playing "C major" over the E7 but knowing that E7 has a G# instead of a G, lean into that note. It yields the same scale ultimately but it's an easier way to get there for someone with less command over all of the different scales.
That's fair enough. I might consider that a description rather than an explanation but there's nothing wrong with having some tricks to grab things that work.
I am not sure if this is common or not, orvif i u drstsndvit correctly, but the way you explain this, actually appears to be how i think of modes ;)
If a song starts with a Dm, i look at some other chords close by, to choose one out of three possible major scales (or modes of D ;)). For instance, if there is also a F and a G, i choose a C major (= D dorian). If there is also a F and a Bb, i choose F major (= D phrygian). And if there is for instance a Bb and a C minor, I choose Bb major (= Dm aeolian ;)).
For me, when i learned about modes, everything bacame seven times simpler :))
Maybe a D minor chord is D Dorian if the D is the Tonal centre. We would hear the D as the tonal centre if it keeps cropping up in focal points such as first beat of the bar in a 4 bar phrase or as the “One” in a cadence .
Slightly different approach with Gary Burton's improv course which i'm enrolled in right now. At the moment i'm only allowed to work with 10 scales (until some fluency can be demonstrated) the 7 modes and 3 other scales to be used with dominant 7th chords which are Lydian b7 scale (4th mode of melodic minor), the Altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor), and the Symmetrical Diminished scale or rather the half/whole diminished scale. I'm expected to create melodic material with each mode/scale with tonic resolutions. Extremely difficult with a really dark mode such as Locrian. Btw, thank you.
Gary Burton is spot on with those 10 scales. .... p.s. Barry Harris stuff is within that Symmetrical Diminished scale.
Although I entirely agree with the idea that we should avoid modal thinking in tonal music, there is some inconsistency in BH's approach. We have the "Dominant scale", which is really just a mixolydian scale (up to the 7th). How would you "justify" this bias?
Hi. What software are you using for the jazz standards? I'd love to purchase it
Hey thanks for the video. As a guitarist I’ve always found trying to fit chord scales over changes cumbersome and longwinded however, being aware of the modal positions on the fretboard frees me up to see where I can go whilst outlining arpeggios. Could you see the minor 3 diminished chord a tritone substitution of the secondary dominant of chord ii? Sorry if that’s a dumb question.
Not really, because the tension isn’t the same as a tri tone sub
A7 to D minor has the tension in G and C#
if you tritone sub that Eb7 to D minor, you also have tension in G and Db/C#
Eb diminished does not contain that same tension and thus would not be a tritone substitution in that regard. Although yes, the bass notes are a tritone apart!
@@eddy_is_crunchy5593 hey thanks for the reply, I see my mistake.
I have never seen or heard any jazz teacher telling anybody that they should use modes to play over standards especially. They usually emphasize that you need to highlight the chord tones and other techniques I'm not going into here. But nobody I know and virtually nobody on the internet if you search will say use modes to play over typical jazz standards
I find this ''method'' you use for going from a 7 to a minor chord interesting. Do you have videos on methods like this? I need this kind of information
I was so frustrated in college when they were teaching modes. I secretly came to a lot of these conclusions and threw the modes away. A much happier improviser.
I could make a video saying there's no need to learn the "dominant scale" which you keep talking about because it's just the major scale starting on the fifth degree.
It's all semantics. As long as we all understand each other, I see no problem referring to that scale as the dominant scale, mixolydian, or major scale starting on the fifth degree.
I think that's missing the point. The issue isn't about naming a scale as mixolydian or dorian, but rather that thinking modally doesn't really help in functional harmony. The first 5 bars of All the Things You Are are vi-ii-V-I-IV. Thinking of those bars as 5 different modes won't get you anywhere but thinking of them as 5 bars in the tonaily of the "I" chord will allow you to play horizontal phrases that make sense. Thinking of modes as relative to a key centre also causes a lot confusion with beginners because they think, quite rightly, that if D dorian is just C major starting on D then it is meaningless. Thinking in parallel is of more use (i.e. D dorian = D major with a flat 3 and a flat 7) but is still of limited use for negotiating diatonic chord progressions.
I wondered about that when I first got into BH. But then I saw that there are “dominant scale” specific things to practice as well as the concept of the three related dominant scales (“family”). So for me it makes sense to view it as its own thing now.
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet Disagree with your statement about them not helping in functional harmony. No one learns the modes as independent scales, that would be way too much work. You learn them based on their relationship to the major scale they're associated with. To me deciding to use F dorian over an Fm chord implies that I'll treat it as the ii chord in Eb major; it's just a word that packs all that information more efficiently.
Once again, I could argue that talking about a G dominant scale is useless because it doesn't help functionally and you should say you'll use C major instead, but we both know that's not true: the word dominant has functional implications as the V chord for both of us. To me, the modes have the same type of functional implications as well.
Yes but the fact that you can think of an Fm chord as F dorian is trivially true in a diatonic progression in Eb major. If you're playing over a I-vi-ii-V progression then whatever you play over that ii chord will be dorian as long as you use the notes Eb. Knowing that doesn't help in real time. Modes are more interesting when you have more static harmony so you can select a mode for its colour. @@adimare0
@@blow-by-blow-trumpet Again, everything you said could be applied to the dominant scale. In a V-I progression if you stick to the notes from the tonic during the V chord you'll be playing the same notes you would if you were playing the dominant scale, and knowing the name of that scale doesn't help you in real time in any way. The same can be said about pretty much any nomenclature used in music.
As I said, it's all semantics. If we're both playing the exact same thing, it's silly to argue over what we name it.
Thank you, very helpful. The dominant scale is just the major scale starting on the 5th degree right?
Never mind, u answered right after lol
That was a pretty good Barry Harris impression 😂
I agree with you, and I would say no professional musician actually think about C ionian D dorian E phrygian when we stay in one tonic centre, because it is not necessary, but at the same time saying about scales and teaching ,,When something comes from C maj key, u play c maj scale" is very limiting. I personally do not think about scales at all, I think more about arpeggios and extensions and hinging, I try to think about the melodic movement and meaning in my lines and intuitionally I switch between regular or altered tones and passing tones and more about shapes, than the scales I am playing, because I can play many scales in one bar or create my own not regular scales and as far as I am concern it is the approach that gives u freedom and that is used by gratest musician
Thanks for your comment and for watching. To clarify about the Cmaj scale. It doesn't mean that's all I do. There are chromatic notes, chord notes, surrounds etc as well.
Please explain what you mean by ‘hinging’? Thanks 👍
I see modes as a memory tool for when you change keys in a song or if you change the key of a song.
For example, if I were playing a song in the key of Eb, and then later it changes to Ab, I could think it's in Eb mixolydian, or if the song changes to Bb, then I am in Eb lydian. This way, you only need to remember the letter of the key of the song(in this case, Eb) and the mode it's in, rather than an interval like, I am in C major, now I am F major, now I am in G major, etc.
of course, this has it's limitations, for example if you look at a song like Donna lee or all the things you are, in Donna lee, going from Ab to Bb can't be represented as a mode with Ab since that would require Ab to become A, or in all the things you are, Ab does not have a mode that can represent the key of C, So in those cases, you just remember the key.
Modes can also be a means to change some of your playing, for example in a one chord vamp over a dominant chord, playing lydian dominant for a different sound.
In my eyes, using modes to represent chords that are all in the same key, like C ionian for Cmaj, or D dorian for Dmin would not be worth the thought.
If you use keys and you know scales - the classical, major and minor types - there is absolutely no rational musical call for the vocabulary of medieval modes. It complicates things to no purpose to use that stuff. What goes on with modes is that people have wasted so much time learning them they feel the need to continue, particularly if they teach as a way of generating income. Modes are a cottage industry, striking terror into the hearts of young people and putting adults off of learning a new instrument for fear of all that ancient-Greek-village stuff. Telling me the key we're in and then the step where a section of a given piece of music changes and I know what I need to know. No need to drag out the modes.
Thanks for taking a reasonable approach.
Dm7 isn’t always Dm7.
Pure genius
That is so weird that even if I'm a percussionist, just pressing on the piano with my left hand three or four random keys, and then with my right hand playing any melody by randomly picking notes with an interesting rhythm, and then changing the notes of the left hand at rhythmically unexpected moments, people go like 'woah... Jazz.' so that's what I understand jazz is: random harmony with random melodies with some sort of rhythm. And repetition is the key, you just repeat a random sequence few times and it turns into legit
There are people that memorize what other people play and memorize modes and tout their music theory knowledge. There are also people who “get” music theory but just play and improvise. Some people just “recite” what others have already said, and some people actually have something to say themselves. I had a friend that could play amazing guitar riffs and licks. That said if you put him on stage and asked him to just jam along with someone that was playing off-hand chord progressions, they literally couldn’t play along.
Keyword here: “HAD”! 😂
1:03 did you only keep going through the names of the modes to make up for stalling on phrygian? 😄
It's okay, I always stall on phrygian. It starts with phryg 😵💫
The modes of melodic minor and the major scale can be very useful on modern tunes by composers like Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, and Pat Metheny.
Yes. I did mention that some more modern tunes might benefit.
Yes, D dorian is a C major scale. The problem isn’t “modes”, but confusing scales with melodies. A scale is a sack of flour. A melody is a loaf of bread. Study melodies, not scales.
so where does this leave us in light of Barry Harris‘s teachings that a D minor seventh is actually an F major 6, and if it is not tonic, then the proper scale to use would be the F major 6 dim scale, whether it’s a ii or iii chord?
He taught the Maj6dim for chord movement but the improv scales were the way I presented about them in this video.
@@JazzSkills That’s interesting, because I use them as the basis for my improvization, not just chord movements.
Simple, Modes are for playing one chord vamp, like "My Favorite Things", not standards with chord progressions. Playing over changes includes the understanding of chord tones, ii - V - I, and other techniques.
People don't really think "ii Dorian, V Mixo-Lydian, I Ionian". Students learn that, but then later down the line it all just becomes "Major" again and the vertical part is second nature.
One of the things that concerns me about learning a particular method for improvising is that i could end up sounding like a clone. I saw a video on a jazz channel saying that the good players coming out of universities now all sound the same. Much as i live Charlie Parker, if i learn the Barry Harris method, am i just going to sound like an imitator of Bird or am i going to have my own voice? Im trying to strike a balance between learning complete systems and having my own ideas in there. Ill probably never be terribly successful in finding original ways of improvising that sound great, but it's fun trying.
You're an amalgam of every musician you admire.
Just play whatever you like, your own sound will come from your own preferences of what you like to play; don't worry about sounding "unique", just play stuff that you like the sound of. If you like bird's sound, then you'll know the exact elements of his sound that you like which is uniquely your preference, so you'll be using bird's stuff in the way you like to best, which will naturally make you sound like "you".
I've been studying Charlie Parker for 30 years and I'd be happy to sound 1% like him 😄
There are no good players coming out of universities. Institutional Learning Facilities can only teach dogma.
@@whatilearnttoday5295 You apparently learned very little today. What a bizarre comment to make.
I cannot factor polynomials and I cannot figure out modes. I wonder if autistics understand music theory differently than neurotypicals? Thanks to this excellent lesson!
This seems to me not to be an argument against modes but an argument for a more nuanced approach to modes. Not to say this method doesn't also have merit, because it certainly does, both in terms of its simplicity and its accessibility relative to the modes, and in terms of the fact that many great improvisers have improvised without modes. But note also that many great musicians have never learned to read music - and, in some cases, never even learned the names of the notes that they are playing, but few of us actively advocate to our students not to learn the name of the notes or how to read music. A more sophisticated approach to the modes that incorporates an awareness of function effectively does the same thing that this approach does, but also provides a stronger emphasis on chord tones and an awareness of the characteristic degrees of each mode. I also feel that the tendency to misinterpret certain chords results in some of the characteristic sounds I often hear in jazz (such as misinterpreting a vi as a ii, playing Dorian with its major sixth, resulting in a ♯4 scale degree); I can't really call this a mistake, so much as a characteristic of the style.
The modes are simply a way to name stuff. it doesn't matter Even if you call a Cmajor7#11 "Henry" as long as you have some way to refer to it. On the guitar it's more useful to learn the modes since there are 7 different ways to play a Major scale and a simple 3 note phrase can be played in as many as a dozen positions with different fingerings and strings and timbral characteristics. So yes, we can say "C major starting at the 6th string with the 1st finger, 2nd finger, 4th finger, or starting on the 5th string with the 1st finger, 4th finger," and so on. (Those all look completely different on a guitar.) But those are complicated names. Also, looking at something like the blues, i find it easier to say "Cmix, Fmix, Gmix" rather than "F major with a C root, Bb major with an F root, C major with a G root (or triad or tone center or dominant 7th arpeggio)." So really just a shortcut of language, I think, for us guitar players.
I'm a fan of Barry Harris and have picked up a few things from his videos.
Neck positions on guitar are not modes. They're just Major scale in different positions. Learning them as being "modes" makes an incorrect association between a neck position and a tonality. Each mode runs from one end of the fretboard to the other.
they are both. the neck positions are also 7 positions to play the lydian, 7 ways to play the mixolydian, etc. the key is knowing where the "1" is, and every tone in all those 7 shapes can be one so you end up with 49 scales, or modes.@@whatilearnttoday5295
Modes are a Seasoning to add to the meal, NOT the meal itself . The Barry Harris approach also is a functional path but I would think the song dictates the improv🤔🤔
I want to see someone explain playing on basic progressions like cream white room
It is in a major key, but modes don't work
It is more like major blues but sub dominant and dominant
I can explain it but I would like to see someone explain it
Jimi played E altered then F# D
On purple haze he thought of E alt as minor blues and F# E as an E dominant shape .
On guitar that is like moving the same pattern back on fourth a whole step
Yet it is important to think of how the root relates to intervals as well😂 ...there is no short cut
I love how people who explain how not to use modes know all the modes .
Really you have to practice scales for like 3 years then harmony study will allow the ability to hear what you want to play
I find how pentatonic and blues scales interchange with the Modes to be in blends that vary from song to song figuring out the recipe is interesting
Excellent point 👍
Modal harmony is now called non functional Harmony
It is more important to know tonic dominant subdominant and the diminished ladder .
Problem with the word MODE is it's early Latin meaning is Mesurement or modulation
Where as newer Latin meaning
Is mood
To complicate matters Miles played modal jazz which really mean in one key or diatonic to one scale like the way satriani and Jeff beck play .
But modal harmony really means Modular harmony or changing keys in a relatively simple structure like the circle of 5ths
I wonder if the proliferation of modes is more to do with guitars become such a popular instrument.
It’s quite hard to visualise a scale over the whole instrument when it’s basically just looking at a blank grid. Modes allow you to break the fretboard down into sections that are easier to manage.
Imagine how much harder it would be to learn scales on a piano if all the keys were the same size and colour… now imagine you can also play each pitch in multiple places!!
I think it's possibly a mixture of that and people trying to inject old monkish ideas into new stuff, overcomplicating simple ideas
Berkeley put everything into a chordscale context in the Real Book.
Modes set me back. Lock me in.