Glad to see the shop is doing well enough to invest back into it. Varying RPM with the drive is very clever. So is the RPM ramp up technique. Both seem to be very effective way to make the time constant of the vibration go haywire, thereby killing or reducing it. Thanks for the video. I learn a lot from you guys.
great video looks like Serdi didn't cheap out anywhere. as someone who builds automation equipment i saw only high quality expensive components in that electrical cabinet.
Siemens V20 though... Ugh. Can there exist a drive with more parameters? Or one with 1/4 of them where you can't back them up? (Which is totally not relevant in this video, but I have to get that off much chest.)
Thank you to Serdi for building an amazing machine and supporting our content! If you haven't already, subscribe to their channel and follow their social medias! ua-cam.com/channels/B25TFLinRAyh1PHIkUVFYQ.html facebook.com/serdi.machines instagram.com/serdimachines/ www.serdimachines.com
Are those machines dampened in any way? I know when turning rotors we had a rubber band with weights on it that we would wrap around them to help reduce chatter.
I'm surprised you guys don't have New Way valve seat cutting system. I used them for years in my shop. 3 steps: 60 degree first (dry) 30 degrees (dry) and 46 degrees wet. We used flywheel grinder coolant. A few turns, let up pressure, let it coast and polished seat beautiful. You did 45 valve 46 seat interference fit. Less than 30 seconds per seat. We had bench mounted electric driver. 5 Carbide cutters. Do 16 seats 15 minutes average. Great time saver! No set up. Just drop the heads in "V" bench stands. iDL machine for seat installation. Seconds to set up. Love watching you guys! Good show.
I think the keys here is you and your pop are skilled craftsmen who care. Those attributes work for machining, carpentry, orthopedic surgery, and everything else!
In my 30 plus year's of cylinder head work i have owned pretty much every make seat machine made ,and chatter, and seat contricity has always been a problem. After purchasing my first cnc newen machine i was astonished that all these problems dissapeared overnight with the single point cnc system. I understand that this type of machine is out of reach of most shop's due to machine and tooling costs versus the amount of work being produced but at least serdi has come up with what seems to be a pretty good fix for the chattering problem. I would have certainly tried this if i still owned one.
That's pretty cool. I used to use a homemade snake oil, 50% denatured alcohol and 50% Kroil. It helped usually. Sometimes you just had to stop and kiss it with the stones.
Always interesting. When I built my lathe long time ago, I first had a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) driving an Induction E-motor. This VFD had parameters to oscillate the speed within bandwiths, which worked great for combatting chatter. But the setup lacked low end torque, so I replaced it with a DC setup. Maybe Brushless DC one day and then RPM oscillation will certainly be back, because I sometimes really need it
Our on car brake lathe does that, plus the cutting head is offset, so that helps to. Cause you don’t want chatter or a spiral cut on a rotor. Pretty cool.
Good to see manufacturers starting to use this technology. This technique has been in home brew DIY controllers for years. It's essential with DIY or hobby equipment without the rigidity of real professional equipment. This is very true with the sub $4k lathes. We have been swapping the motors for a 3 phase, if they cannot be purchased with a 3 phase motor, adding a 1 phase to 3 phase controller. Then, we put a community designed controller connected to that to get head speed control and add this variable speed functionality. Our algorithm is more of a random speed generator being selected between a high and low set point around the base desired speed. The width of this window can be changed as can the frequency of how often the speed is changed. All of this can just be programmed via computer connection or knobs on the controller box.
If rigidity is as solid as possible, slowing down rpm and feed rate is the best way to remove charter. Speeding up almost always induces more. Spindles that oscillate rpm works great too. When all other factors are eliminated.
I've noticed, through quite a few of your videos, that many of your cutters only have a single cutting edge that, regardless of matching, will produce a lateral force on the tool as they cut. I can remember slot drills (when I did machining training) had a slightly shallower blade on one side to reduce this force and hence chatter (as well as reducing depth of cut). I realise this isn't possible in the work you do but just wondering if this one sided cutter, regardless of effort, is a major contributor to the risk of chatter.
I hope your intellectual strength, equipment superiority and product excellence becomes widespread and commonplace as it was when lapping by hand solved all the tooling variances in years long passed. Certainly clear to the naked eye how vastly improved the technology, made the cut.
This has been a big issue in lathes for years when facing especially the closer you get to the center of the work the material removal rate becomes slower and causes chatter nice to see theyve incorporated a variable speed solution in a piece of automotive machine equipment it's worth installing nothing sucks worse than having to start over because you snuck up on something and then hear that chatter right as you're about to feed the spindle up especially in a machine as anemic as a valve cutting machine you don't have the rigidity like you would in say a standard milling machine that's pretty neat
Nice addition to the Serdi machine. It seems to really work well. However, the important thing is you know how to do it without the fancy electronics and take the time to share that knowledge.
I am not sure if it is on the market but Rottler Manufacturing uses chucks that have ‘a rattle’ in their boring bars to eliminate or reduce chatter. Wonder if that can be incorporated somehow in the setup you have.
The CSSV feature is well known in the CNC world, but it has a catch. Especially when removing a lot of material, the spindle motor load can be exceeded, as the continuous speed variation takes a hefty chunk of of the power budget. However, this should be a non issue while cutting these cute little valve seats.
At times i will wrap parts in rubber. Or clamp said rubber (1/4” thick) with a c clamp so there is no metal to metal contact of clamp. Same idea as the rubber bands you would put on a brake rotor/drum when turning to kill vibration. Maybe try wrapping your cutter body and duct taping it on? Might be hokey but i do it a lot of things like that in my job shop to keep the vibration out of parts.
Do automotive machine shops do valve seat replacements on Briggs and Stratton opposed cylinder engines? I have one that at least one seat is loose. The block is aluminum, as are the heads.
I know this was just a test and test head, but ive seen the serdi operator that i work with cover the next port (next seat to be cut) so the chips dont go down in the guide and gaul or hang up the pilot, ... a former employee was a tobacco user and serdi operator snagged some Copenhagen lids and they usually cover well with a pieceof small roundstick to keep it weighted down, and on the big stuff, c-15 isx ddc60 he has steel bars with flattened sbi boxes(cardboard) to cover both ports at once, you may already do something like this and just didnt show it.. keep up the great work everything ive seen you do so far is pretty much how we do it, so that means its right, hahahahaha 👍👍👍
One other trick is to run the tool/spindle in the opposite rotation. I don't inow if that's possible in an application like this, but I've seen it work quite well in regular manual lathes.
This tends to make me question the machines rigidity. Sure changing the speeds and feeds cures the occasional chatter. When it becomes the norm then I want to fix the causation permanently.
By grinding with a stone, the seat is probably well centered and the surface is smooth. May I ask, if you do have a special procedure to get the valve spring mounting height and seat width the same on all valves? Thanks.
@@heikkipinomaa5720 spring is different - it’s measured and set with shims. Valve face height is measured and set by grinding more or less - takes some care and practise. The width of the 3 angles, I measure after blueing the seat to see clearly and grinding more or less. It does take care and practise but can be very accurate. The disadvantage is the time it takes - even dressing the stones. But for a performance engine this doesn’t matter so much. I don’t churn out hundreds of heads.
This is the first thing that popped into my mind. Yes, slow down the spindle OR try feeding it harder. The cutter has a lot of cutting edge engaged at once and isn't that rigid to begin with. This, along with some clearance between the valve guide bore and the pilot, are all contributing to the chatter. Slowing the rpm or increasing the feed keeps the tool loaded and it doesn't load and unload constantly which causes chatter. I've been a machinist for 27 years and this is basic feeds and speeds along with rigidity 101. Still great content on your channel and I do enjoy it.
Nice of Serdi to recognize your valuable input and help you while making the machine even better
Glad to see the shop is doing well enough to invest back into it. Varying RPM with the drive is very clever. So is the RPM ramp up technique. Both seem to be very effective way to make the time constant of the vibration go haywire, thereby killing or reducing it. Thanks for the video. I learn a lot from you guys.
great video looks like Serdi didn't cheap out anywhere. as someone who builds automation equipment i saw only high quality expensive components in that electrical cabinet.
I’m biased but it’s a solid machine 😎
Siemens V20 though... Ugh. Can there exist a drive with more parameters? Or one with 1/4 of them where you can't back them up? (Which is totally not relevant in this video, but I have to get that off much chest.)
Как называется правильно хон головка для направляющих втулок
Thank you to Serdi for building an amazing machine and supporting our content! If you haven't already, subscribe to their channel and follow their social medias!
ua-cam.com/channels/B25TFLinRAyh1PHIkUVFYQ.html
facebook.com/serdi.machines
instagram.com/serdimachines/
www.serdimachines.com
Meh
There are some Serdi machines at the Alpina factory, so they must be good.
Are those machines dampened in any way? I know when turning rotors we had a rubber band with weights on it that we would wrap around them to help reduce chatter.
You know, for an electrician, you’re a pretty talented machinist
Had a chatter problem with my Petersen TCM 25 seat & guide machine. I bought a much better 3 phase converter(Phoenix). Problem solved.
Oscillation frequency is root of spring constant divided by mass. Even with tightest clearance, there is still spring constant in the tool.
I'm surprised you guys don't have New Way valve seat cutting system.
I used them for years in my shop. 3 steps: 60 degree first (dry) 30 degrees (dry) and 46 degrees wet. We used flywheel grinder coolant. A few turns, let up pressure, let it coast and polished seat beautiful.
You did 45 valve 46 seat interference fit.
Less than 30 seconds per seat. We had bench mounted electric driver.
5 Carbide cutters.
Do 16 seats 15 minutes average. Great time saver! No set up. Just drop the heads in "V" bench stands.
iDL machine for seat installation. Seconds to set up.
Love watching you guys!
Good show.
Cool sound effect😅 1940s space alien movie.
I think the keys here is you and your pop are skilled craftsmen who care. Those attributes work for machining, carpentry, orthopedic surgery, and everything else!
Hunter stationary brake lathes do that too. Oscillates RPM to prevent rotor chatter.
There are pasta noodles with more rigidity than those machines. For what they charge they are absolute machining waste.
We also use oscilating spindle speed when turning rotating aerospace parts in exotic alloys to avoid vibrations.
Nice upgrade for the Serdi =)
In my 30 plus year's of cylinder head work i have owned pretty much every make seat machine made ,and chatter, and seat contricity has always been a problem. After purchasing my first cnc newen machine i was astonished that all these problems dissapeared overnight with the single point cnc system. I understand that this type of machine is out of reach of most shop's due to machine and tooling costs versus the amount of work being produced but at least serdi has come up with what seems to be a pretty good fix for the chattering problem. I would have certainly tried this if i still owned one.
That's pretty cool. I used to use a homemade snake oil, 50% denatured alcohol and 50% Kroil. It helped usually. Sometimes you just had to stop and kiss it with the stones.
Same . I finish with stones . What is denatured alcohol? Kroll? (im from Au)
metho
Always interesting. When I built my lathe long time ago, I first had a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) driving an Induction E-motor. This VFD had parameters to oscillate the speed within bandwiths, which worked great for combatting chatter. But the setup lacked low end torque, so I replaced it with a DC setup. Maybe Brushless DC one day and then RPM oscillation will certainly be back, because I sometimes really need it
Our on car brake lathe does that, plus the cutting head is offset, so that helps to. Cause you don’t want chatter or a spiral cut on a rotor. Pretty cool.
Good to see manufacturers starting to use this technology. This technique has been in home brew DIY controllers for years. It's essential with DIY or hobby equipment without the rigidity of real professional equipment. This is very true with the sub $4k lathes. We have been swapping the motors for a 3 phase, if they cannot be purchased with a 3 phase motor, adding a 1 phase to 3 phase controller. Then, we put a community designed controller connected to that to get head speed control and add this variable speed functionality. Our algorithm is more of a random speed generator being selected between a high and low set point around the base desired speed. The width of this window can be changed as can the frequency of how often the speed is changed. All of this can just be programmed via computer connection or knobs on the controller box.
If rigidity is as solid as possible, slowing down rpm and feed rate is the best way to remove charter. Speeding up almost always induces more. Spindles that oscillate rpm works great too. When all other factors are eliminated.
I've noticed, through quite a few of your videos, that many of your cutters only have a single cutting edge that, regardless of matching, will produce a lateral force on the tool as they cut. I can remember slot drills (when I did machining training) had a slightly shallower blade on one side to reduce this force and hence chatter (as well as reducing depth of cut). I realise this isn't possible in the work you do but just wondering if this one sided cutter, regardless of effort, is a major contributor to the risk of chatter.
I hope your intellectual strength, equipment superiority and product excellence becomes widespread and commonplace as it was when lapping by hand solved all the tooling variances in years long passed. Certainly clear to the naked eye how vastly improved the technology, made the cut.
This has been a big issue in lathes for years when facing especially the closer you get to the center of the work the material removal rate becomes slower and causes chatter nice to see theyve incorporated a variable speed solution in a piece of automotive machine equipment it's worth installing nothing sucks worse than having to start over because you snuck up on something and then hear that chatter right as you're about to feed the spindle up especially in a machine as anemic as a valve cutting machine you don't have the rigidity like you would in say a standard milling machine that's pretty neat
Nice upgrade to you Serdi.
Nice job.👍👍
Nice addition to the Serdi machine. It seems to really work well. However, the important thing is you know how to do it without the fancy electronics and take the time to share that knowledge.
I had a chatter problem for yrs... A divorce took care of it!😂 yep I said it. Lol. Great channel!🤘
I had also seen the chatter problem with an old hand held stone type seat grinder.
Easypeasy ❣️ No smoke! I always ♥️ your post!
I am not sure if it is on the market but Rottler Manufacturing uses chucks that have ‘a rattle’ in their boring bars to eliminate or reduce chatter. Wonder if that can be incorporated somehow in the setup you have.
The CSSV feature is well known in the CNC world, but it has a catch. Especially when removing a lot of material, the spindle motor load can be exceeded, as the continuous speed variation takes a hefty chunk of of the power budget.
However, this should be a non issue while cutting these cute little valve seats.
At times i will wrap parts in rubber. Or clamp said rubber (1/4” thick) with a c clamp so there is no metal to metal contact of clamp. Same idea as the rubber bands you would put on a brake rotor/drum when turning to kill vibration. Maybe try wrapping your cutter body and duct taping it on? Might be hokey but i do it a lot of things like that in my job shop to keep the vibration out of parts.
Do automotive machine shops do valve seat replacements on Briggs and Stratton opposed cylinder engines? I have one that at least one seat is loose. The block is aluminum, as are the heads.
Хорошая работа! Классное видео получилось! Круто Круто!!!
After watching one of the Pakistani shops rebuild hopelessly damaged engines with almost no tooling , it's a striking comparison !
Yeah... tell the kid with skinny arms to stop the chatter and give the cleanin guy a raise...
😂
I was already thinking “doesn’t that mill just come with ssv?” I guess now they do haha.
I know this was just a test and test head, but ive seen the serdi operator that i work with cover the next port (next seat to be cut) so the chips dont go down in the guide and gaul or hang up the pilot, ... a former employee was a tobacco user and serdi operator snagged some Copenhagen lids and they usually cover well with a pieceof small roundstick to keep it weighted down, and on the big stuff, c-15 isx ddc60 he has steel bars with flattened sbi boxes(cardboard) to cover both ports at once, you may already do something like this and just didnt show it.. keep up the great work everything ive seen you do so far is pretty much how we do it, so that means its right, hahahahaha 👍👍👍
Just a little update. I talked to Serdi this morning and learned thst the CSSV is not compatible with older machines.
Is there a visual load monitor or just by feel?
Akuma has been doing the rpm variation to stop chatter for a long time.
Another interesting video ! Thanks for sharing !
Really smart
Как называется хон головкадля направляющих втулок
wow nice that the oem is listening to feed back and attempting to engineer a solution
Vss is large high end cnc lathe
I use to do the same on my On Car brake lathe to reduce and eliminate chatter
Old trick😊
One other trick is to run the tool/spindle in the opposite rotation. I don't inow if that's possible in an application like this, but I've seen it work quite well in regular manual lathes.
I wish the serdi I use had that feature. Probably too old to retro fit that feature into.
Wow....that intake bowl @ 4:48 is horrendous....
I wish you guys were in Florida
Same thing happens when i try to reface valves on my lathe with carbide tooling , hmmm so how do i vary the speed there ?
VFD.
Will chatter make a difference to how an engine runs if the size is in the tolerance
Chatter is more than just poor surface finish. Chances are your ports are not as round as they could be either. That could lead to poor sealing.
Mmmmm burned valves....
Try putting a rubber band on the tool if there's room bigger the better
This tends to make me question the machines rigidity. Sure changing the speeds and feeds cures the occasional chatter. When it becomes the norm then I want to fix the causation permanently.
Time will tell if it’s worth it.
You could just call the cleaning guy over and have him reef on the RPM knob eh?
Nice
Work hardening
Notification squad Have a nice weekend!🔥🔥🔥
That’s why I still use stones. Just takes a bit longer….
By grinding with a stone, the seat is probably well centered and the surface is smooth. May I ask, if you do have a special procedure to get the valve spring mounting height and seat width the same on all valves? Thanks.
@@heikkipinomaa5720 spring is different - it’s measured and set with shims. Valve face height is measured and set by grinding more or less - takes some care and practise. The width of the 3 angles, I measure after blueing the seat to see clearly and grinding more or less. It does take care and practise but can be very accurate. The disadvantage is the time it takes - even dressing the stones. But for a performance engine this doesn’t matter so much. I don’t churn out hundreds of heads.
Thank you very much for your patience and sharing your knowledge. I wish a pleasant weekend for you.
Slow down on the rpms...🧐
I like to run fast 🏎️
This is the first thing that popped into my mind. Yes, slow down the spindle OR try feeding it harder. The cutter has a lot of cutting edge engaged at once and isn't that rigid to begin with. This, along with some clearance between the valve guide bore and the pilot, are all contributing to the chatter. Slowing the rpm or increasing the feed keeps the tool loaded and it doesn't load and unload constantly which causes chatter. I've been a machinist for 27 years and this is basic feeds and speeds along with rigidity 101. Still great content on your channel and I do enjoy it.
I always found that you gotta just take your time lots of lube and go slow but hey everyone is different 🤪
😳
@@JAMSIONLINE me and my old Sioux machine go nice and slow ! What did you think I meant 😏