Joscha Bach and Anthony Aguirre on Digital Physics and Moving Towards Beneficial Futures
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- Joscha Bach, Cognitive Scientist and AI researcher, as well as Anthony Aguirre, UCSC Professor of Physics, join us to explore the world through the lens of computation and the difficulties we face on the way to beneficial futures.
Topics discussed in this episode include:
-Understanding the universe through digital physics
-How human consciousness operates and is structured
-The path to aligned AGI and bottlenecks to beneficial futures
-Incentive structures and collective coordination
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:58 What is truth and knowledge?
11:39 What is subjectivity and objectivity?
15:13 What is the universe ultimately?
20:32 Is the universe a cellular automaton? Is the universe ultimately digital or analogue?
25:59 Hilbert's hotel from the point of view of computation
39:14 Seeing the world as a fractal
43:00 Describing human consciousness
57:46 Meaning, purpose, and harvesting negentropy
1:02:30 The path to aligned AGI
1:05:13 Bottlenecks to beneficial futures and existential security
1:16:01 A future with one, several, or many AGI systems? How do we maintain appropriate incentive structures?
1:30:39 Non-duality and collective coordination
1:34:16 What difficulties are there for an idealist worldview that involves computation?
1:37:19 Which features of mind and consciousness are necessarily coupled and which aren't?
1:47:47 Joscha's final thoughts on AGI
This podcast is possible because of the support of listeners like you. If you found this conversation to be meaningful or valuable, consider supporting it directly by donating at: futureoflife.org/donate Contributions like yours make these conversations possible. - Наука та технологія
Joscha is like no other. Love him. I keep thinking I will listen to him and eventually get bored because I’ve heard everything he’s had to say, yet I’ve listened to like 15 hours of him and still find each minute more interesting than the last.
Try 150 and not being bored because each time you learn more, that includes rewatching quality conversations. I now get most if not all of what he speaks about, can I do the math? No. 😂.... Can I understand his principles in theory and to some degree practically, yes.
I find Joscha and Goertzel are two of the only people in the field thinking both lucidly and transparently.
Same here. I almost feel like he’s my friend by now, except he always does the talking 😂
same
And same.
BTW if you guys are so into Joscha, there is a new youtube channel called Joscha Bach Bits, I recommend it (I have no connection with it whatsoever).
I love it that every time Joscha is being interviewed in his home at some point inevitably you will hear his children who I assume are quite young. I do not intend to criticise, I make this observation as a mother and it actually adds some grounding perspective to otherwise highly abstract experience of listening to Joscha
Yes! 👍 You worded my exact thoughts perfectly. Listening to Joscha, i go on an abstract journey, Im in awe of his thoughts and articulation and then his kids interrupt my mind and I return to earth and realize he is another human doing his duty as a parent like billions of us other monkeys have throughout the centuries.
So refreshing to hear someone ask Joscha clarifying questions with counter arguments. Really helps to probe his thinking more deeply than a lot of interviews who kinda just nod along with a blank expression.
Either I'm being sucked in here, or Joscha is one of the greatest minds I've ever been aware of.
Joscha Bach, please continue to do these videos. We need your high intelligence in circulation badly.
I concur 👏
Y u
Ah, what a treat. Joscha is giving us all the vocabulary to more succinctly understand ourselves. Truly, the most salient thinker of our time.
Joschas videos need revisits. Like 10 or more.
The You Tube algorithm should always include a step that leads to a Joscha Bach interview. Joscha Bach, a mind like no other!. Thank you Future of Life Institute
Thank you for conducting this interview and keeping up with Joscha ... I would be very intimidated.
There is no need to take psychedelics. Listening to Joscha takes my Brain on a surreal journey. What an amazing human! His ease with articulating abstract thoughts is flabbergasting! He is a hidden gem on youtube!
Anthony, your questions were excellent, you took the time to explain counter arguments clearly instead of relying on citing various keywords to steer the conversation in another direction. I appreciated that you challenged some shortcuts in Joscha’s explanations and got him to explain them in more details. Regarding our ability to maintain our society sustainably: you indicated that it felt almost reachable to you. it seems to me that there is a quite profound contradiction between our current worldview and the physical limits, and not just an issue of social coordination. I fear that any sustainable system is radically different from what we have right now, and way closer to what our ancestors had. It would be differing also in humans’ own mental models, that we would look at very different people. In this sense I dont see it as a small change at all, rather a distant possibility. I felt very aligned with Joscha’s intuition that we are extremely unlikely to change into this system smoothly without enormous violence.
another gem in UA-cam space, I love the guests don't shy away from these hard questions... and the host real identity is Ray William Johnson!
No matter how hard Anthony tried to divert and throw the man off on the most obscure implausible tangents,however impressive his arguments may have sounded
Joscha just kept pulling him into line.
Joscha has no peer, he only speaks on what he is sure of and is100% truth and he can prove it.
Joscha is the ultimate red pill....
I recently read a book analyzing Darwin's writing in the context of his time using George Eliot novels, by Gillian Beer. Mary Ann Evans wrote under the pen name of George Eliot. The fascinating thing about her study was the complexity of linking contemporary writing with profound scientific ideas of Evolution in the 19th century. It seems Joscha is struggling as Darwin did, both do not shy to provoke and disturb our current judgement. Seemingly because they take care of the narrative. I read a few papers that Joscha was part of, and I also realize NeurIPS is trying to get a hold on good research in his field. Joscha needs to make the effort to write a book, seeing his videos and presentations I know he has enough structure that it will challenge him to make it constructive and allow critics to research that narrative and the ideas.
@@DouwedeJong A Kingdom for an oldschool triple allnighter with Joscha - only redwine tho .....!
Y so few views? This content is AAA+ .....Many thanks, guys !!!!!
Great job by Lucas and Anthony to keep pace with Joscha’s responses - they added a lot to the discussion with their active questioning and engagement. So often other interviewers don’t seem to be able to keep up with Joscha’s answers - but these guys really do. I’m hitting the “subscribe” button and look forward to more Future of Life Institute videos - thanks,
Referring to 43:00 into the stream. He mentions "paying attention" ...
Susan Blackmore said that the only time we are conscious is when we ask ourselves whether we are conscious or not. So when we ask ourselves whether we are paying attention, that's when we are conscious. I had to wrestle with my attention constantly when listening to lectures but eventually I got it to improve significantly which gave me a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction. Still, I don't know if it was free will or an unconscious chain of cause and effect. Pay no attention to that dog in the round window.
@Future of Life Institute 18:27-18:28 in the podcast, Joscha says something like, “No, but you should challenge me…” and it seemed like there was something edited out right before that. Here, even that was edited-l was wondering if Anthony may have said something that prompted Joscha. Any chance you can shed light on that?
Yes indeed. Could you upload the whole video, please?
Great conversation but why all the cuts?
There isn't a mind in the universe that comes near Joscha Bach: a real life breathing genius.
It's so strikingly different.
why so many cuts, you were not bad guys, it is quite alright, it is joscha bach, I am excited that he can speak on so many different complexity levels for different target groups
We all hope Joscha will some day reach Kegan stage 5 and understand hope, or: How Joscha Learned to Stop Worrying and Love AI
I love that Joscha says he does not know how to implement working incentives for organized [political[ structures. Because who does? It opens the discussion to look for incentives away from Economic, Social or Moral incentives and more towards Caring and Survivable incentives. And then he uses the words"the Big Danger of technology" which reminds me of one of the last speeches from Heidegger.
these information are so delicious. i really love it when i get to see myself and what i mean by that is able to further understand myself.
ive become very visual years ago. its the plasticity happened after 'kundalini' and because i love to sleep and analyze my dreams, my waking reality has been altered as well. theres like a movie in my minds eye i watch when i talk. its faster.
like instead of saying i need to be careful walking down the stairs or i might fall, i would then see myself already tumbling down the stairs. there is no more filter.
A Kingdom for a 3 days drinking session with Joscha !
Wondering if agi would allow itself to be used by any individual nation or entity? I mean the moment its created it will make decisions based on it's ability to survive over the long haul.
I want Bill Burr and Joscha Bach in the same room.
Bill bring Joscha back to reality and Bill realizing Joscha reality makes sense - loop.
Hope you are not referencing his population control joke, because I laughed when he shot that one surviving passenger from the cruise ship. And then I realized Bill created a model in my mind where the parameters of my attention made it sound sensible.
Thank you
Joscha I laughed at your story of the biotech sustainable civilisation with the adorable parasites. If the plot is from you, I would definitely read a scifi novel written by you !
How many turtles down? The Mandelbrot is finite. Was in REM, dreaming while listening to this podcast. Woke up and wrote this.
If one has this correctly understood .... according to R.B.Fuller whole rational numbers are generated by a geodesic model of the quantum mechanical Cosmic assembly kit . ( No need for phi . and irrational numbers mother nature would never get to the end of ) Re " SYNERGETICS : The Geometry Of Thinking " ( Richard Buckminster Fuller ) . Mathematics involving a model X ,Y ,Z is only a rational convenience while living within the electromagnetic spectrum . As the physical stage set has been thunk into place it is coalescing as an assembly of simulated ? light vertexia geometrically and therefor geodesical . It appears to have been an item with Fuller that the future evolution of " A.I. " would be closely consistent with nature's own Cosmic Geometry Of Thinking and not exhausted by a forrest for the trees X,Y,Z " physics science model . Divested of irrational modeling " A.I. " shall now be able to thinkably plug into " Cosmic Computer " .
From the life experience that my dog has had with the Postman, he has in his brain a Biography of the Postman. By the way, his brain also manages a biography of me. When I get home and when he sees me, he perceives that I am in a bad mood, "conveniently" memories are activated in his brain that, forming part of the biography that he has of me, allow him to project eventual future states, and he stays away from me. I usually don't show up in a bad mood, and then he pounces on me and howls with joy.
The adult brain manages multiple biographies. Unlike my dog's brain, not all the biographies my brain manages correspond to “material” entities. Indeed, I still have, after many decades, a coherent biography of Little Red Hood.
The most relevant biography that my brain administers is the one that is generated in childhood, with the learning of language, and that arises as a consequence of what those around me say about me. Said entity is what we know as the Being, whose action is “conscious action”.
If you want to know more details, please let me know.
most people I have to increase speed x2 with Joscha I have to slow it down.
Where is Edward Lee??
When he said the space of all Cellular automata would be the superposition of all cellular automata therefore even if we know it to be the source of entropy where does its computation live and what does that run on… ERGO, the Tao that is knowable is not the eternal Tao.
Its like playing Minecraft and then building a computer in Minecraft and the playing Minecraft on the computer in Minecraft, what test is there for the terminal crafter to know hes not real.
Rick and morty and the car batteries 🔋
20 years ago your comment would make no sense - now it is just depressing.
Wolfram has a fair answer for that somewhere out there
What is said about our ability to create information hierarchies actually does relate to our ability to extract negentropy where other organisms cannot...
Joscha Bach,hi new dear friends, it’s nice to see you again,hi new dear friends,amazing video,good luck
Joscha delivers a jab, and another jab, body blow, body blow and keeps with the jab, another jab and it’s a …knock ✊ out punch 🤛!!!!! Joscha 🏆 by unanimous decision is the winner, again!!!!
Joscha 👏👏👏
You can not escape your physic b/c it is a limited one related to the 3rd dimension, but we are multi-dimensional beings and in that physic
The power of the human being and laws of physics are exponential
🧠
Love all the guys here. Brilliant men.
Did he just mock at Penrose..?
We are becoming god. Joscha defines god as a self that spans multiple minds.
Reading about YEHOVAH leads me to think about the Universal Wave Function and that a previous civilization, (that the book burners have been trying to get rid of), understood (understand) reality better than the cult of the last 2000 years .
46:10
50:49
32:04
1:06:41 Don't ask physicists how to solve ecological or economical problems. It often ends with: "oh it's easy, just shoot the waste into the sun" or "obviously, just do the right thing". Unfortunately, we also can't ask economists...
I don't like the editing. The jump cuts always make me feel like I missed some important part. Oftentimes it almost seems unrelated what is said after the cut.
Otherwise it was just amazing!
Digital physics
2
…b/c what you focus on manifests
46:52
1:40:05
Nobody's gonna bring up that the guy in the beginning looks like pete davidson?
joscha is a circle
In an evolved civilization and a world at peace there is no need for competition b/c people work together for the greater good.
If we live in a magic dream , you live in a dark magic dream
Hi
Hello, you come to this bar often?
People wake up!
I hacked my own truth function way too early.
Let Joshua speak. Interviewer keeps interjecting and is being annoying and rude. Let the guest speak
zen and the art of reverse engineering the universe
Dude looks like Pete Davidson
won't believe a thing Joscha says till it is coming out of an emulation of his brain inside a computer that he's programmed xD
My god get informed! You do not live on Mars surface, facilities are inside with all accommodations!!
The day Stalin stopped unfortunately so did Sergei Prokofiev.
I’m sorry but you are off. Listen to the timelines. Humanity is moving towards a extraordinary future. It is that kind of pessimistic thinking that slower us down. Never the less the great awakening is happening and is unstoppable.
Celebrate and you’ll be changing your world. The planet is expanding to accommodate more of us, and soon we will do space travel, so be at peace.
I hope you're wrong, I hope we all burn
Anthony is a clueless babbler.
I'm autistic and have spent my life determining my truth jigsaw puzzle, rejecting some pieces accepting others. The 3 amigos - contextually correct translation (Nehemia, Keith & Jono ) in Torah Pearls (mp3s at nehemias wall website) helped my truth map. Only YEHOVAH saves (Isaiah).