This is my take. This test made me excited when I stumbled across it. I’ve always been skeptical about pex a fastening method. I was looking for a failure at the crimp joint. Neither product failed at that joint which is remarkable.
For me its the opposite. A crimp ring made of metal will corrode and fatigue over time. The whole point of going plastic is because its non reactive and lasts an incredibly long time. If you add metal you ruin point of going plastic. Pex A is constantly trying to shrink so it will always remain strong.
As someone who knows a bit of polymer science, the conclusion is what I expected because stiffer probably means higher molecular weight and/or more cross linking and stronger in similar polymers.
Dido, except. I am very confused as far as the aging of these types of connectors relying on the contraction of a polymer. You know as well as I do that that polymers do tend to "relax" overtime. Heat cycles will impact that as well, so how long before they relax enough to allow the fitting to fail?
@@fredpinczuk7352 because the polymer is crosslinked, it will not creep in the expected manner before the polymer actually degrades from UV or oxidation or similar.
Yes the biggest risk of all these systems, aside from poor installation crimping, expansion, is uv exposure. When you have a toilet supply exposed to uv light in. A bright bathroom, don’t expect this to last 50 years !
I've worked in plastics for about 30 years (mainly working with HDPE, polypropylene, and styrene) and I would have been very surprised if PEX B failed first. I assume PEX A has some elastomeric additive / impact modifier, such as maybe kraton, added to it to make it more flexible and kink resistant. The elastomer will not only add flexibility but detract from the over all strength to some extent or another.
Hi Roger, love the channel. Could you make a video about valves? which ones you like and which ones hold up the longest in your experience? Ball valves, gate valves, ect. Would love to see a breakdown of some of them. Older ones and new style too. Keep up the great work
I like those tests you done, but now do me a favor and take each of them and put them under 200psi pressure outside for a year. I like to see which will fail the Florida brutal heat in the sun and in the shade side. Because I got in the last 10 years over 1000 PEX A which failed for customers under mobile homes and around the homes on the exterior alone. And it's the fitting which fails not the pipe. So the bigger thing we learned is for Florida's heat don't use expansion material for the fittings instead used stainless crimp rings instead.
I think CPVC is much worse and it does a great job at withstanding the weather.. but I think using copper, CPVC outside and transition to PEX inside is always the smoothest move for longevity...
Well from my experience I was working on PEX a from 2012 and when ever you would put the tool on it it would split and crack so I had to put a PEX b fitting on there for it to work also under a trailer in Florida over in chulota
I had an entire 2 story house freeze in Connecticut. The only thing that burst were the copper sections near the on demand heater. The entire house was plumbed with Viega PureFlow Pex B. That's all of the water and radiant floors. Zero failures. The tenant shut the heat off in the summer and the pipes burst the day after Christmas due to good insulation. The whole house had to be gutted.
I think the biggest benefit of PEX A is fewer fittings and a higher flow rate. I replaced a PEX B install under my floor with all PEX A and was able to eliminate a lot of fittings the plumber used. Of course he doesn't care if it leaks below a floor that I have no access to underneath.
@@TrillPJ A lot of plumbers will use 90 degree fittings just because it's easier when the pipe can be bent. You can use a special bracket to bend the pipe to ensure no kinks. Fewer connections is always better.
@@adisharr The brackets curve the pipe without causing a kink, and it's faster than having to put a 90 elbow on it, and without loss of water pressure at the 90. I saw one install video where they didn't anchor the curved brackets, but I'm not sure that's good code compliance everywhere.
Great video! FYI some manufacturers do list their PEX B tubing for use with F1960 (expansion) fitting and rings. Sioux Chief and Viega are the ones that I am aware of but there may be others. I have used Sioux Chief PEX B with expansion fittings with no problem.
I think what customers and people in the trade wants to know is the effect of time on those tubing… because we want something that will last the longest possible! Good videos keep it !!
As someone who uses strictly pex a I use expansion connections and crimp connections. Since pex a is able to use both style connections can we see a pex a pipe with the crimp connections to see what it burst at. I’m curious to know if the expansion weakens the pipe that much or if the pipe itself if that much weaker
id lover to see a freeze test, on both pex a and b. highest pressure in a home ive tested as a service plumber is 180psi. i have also done multiple repipes in pex type a through attics, i would like to see a simulation of a freeze break on a hot and cold line in your chamber. maybe you can install another Pex a male adapter on the other side of the chamber with a cap on the outside in some sort of black iron so you have more surface area on the test pipe itself. Thanks roger
Frozen water in a confined space exert a tremendous amount of pressure per square inch as many home and business owners found out in Texas a couple of years ago. PEX could have saved many of them a lot of trouble and money. Didn't really care for the test or video until I started thinking about the total use of the information. Thanks
Could you also put Suix Chief pex B in the mix? I would love to see their own Pex A versus PEX B because they claim that their pex B can use expansion fittings as well.
So Pex B won the pressure test, but what about long term stability? Is it possible it will degrade faster in a slab if used for radiant floor heating? If not, sounds like Pex B would be the best route to go.
I think the big issue with pex is chlorine resistance; if your water supply is highly chlorinated, you might want to look at pex-c (I think it's called that).
Pipes in my bathroom freeze every winter when temps get into the negatives. I plan on rerouting the pipes under the house instead of inside the wall. I have Pex A and the pipes always thaw out and work just fine when the temps get back into the single digits. I prefer Pex A because it does not restrict the flow of water at the fittings like Pex B does.
From my understanding, The water flow restriction that some mention is due to the use of pex 1/2” tubing which has lower inside dimension if the tubing goes over the fitting. The way around that is using 3/4” tubing so that your end result is 1/2” crimped
I'd like to see that with clear/white pex-a, given the litigation against uponor for the red/blue pex-a. These results are in line with the accusations in the CO class action.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 there are accusations that the process that colors the red and blue uponor tubing causes defects, leading to microabrasions when the expansion tool is used and causes premature failure. Google and you can easily find the lawsuit.
I'm no plumber but I've had to fix a lot of leaks with pex i love per b the only failures i see with them is when the crimps are old and corroded and leak but never ever seen one frozen so I love the new age of pex compared to cpvc
Could you do all types of water pipe on a pressure test? Matt Risenger did one but he had them all on a manifold. It would be pretty educational to see them all tested individually. CPVC, Copper, PEX, galvanized, pvc, etc...
I bought a roll of Uponor Pex A for a project that I never got around to. I was concerned about UV exposure so I stored it in a trash bag. When I pulled it out to use it it was seriously discolored and had yellow splotches on it. Not exactly confidence inspiring so I am now leaning towards the Pex B that is certified to use with f1960 expansion like Zurn and Sioux Chief.
As a non plumber it sounds to me like it's more about how many connections you are going to need to make (since each connection with B reduces flow slightly) and whether the pipe might have a chance of freezing. The pressure test was good though to see how strong those connections are.
Good demonstration! Extreme pressure buildup comes from icing (ice formation will start and travel longitudinally along the pipe squeezing/pressurizing the water as it goes). So even if your supply pressure is only 40-80 psi, the ice formation will act like a piston pump and build extreme pressure. The pipe does not burst from physical outward expansion of the ice like most people think.
Hi! Any idea what might be the pipe pressure range for freezing pipe conditions? Do you think pex pipes could withstand couple of consecutive days of 10 degrees below freezing weather?
@@doradean3097 Depends on PEX type, age, and connection. See UA-cam pressure and freezing tests. PEX A (white pipe) doesn't do very well at age 7 or 8 - becomes brittle and weaker. PEX B typically takes freezing pressure better - it will expand like a balloon a little but will usually not burst. Of course, proper install and connection will make a difference. If possible, turn on a faucet to a steady trickle - that will relieve pressure and keep the water above freezing. If exposed to freezing temps all the time, you can also install heat tape, insulation, or... In general, PEX is far better at not bursting from freezing temps than other materials.
Problem of PEXa is that fitting ring last about 15 years or less on hot water before it starts leaking. That's why it's not used widely in Europe. Upponor has a lot of law suits in Europe due to their connections. Rehau type of PEX connection is much much better and long lasting.
Roger, I have a question....there are rotating and non-rotating expansion tools/heads for PEX-A. I noticed that when you expanded the PEX-A, that you rotated the pipe with the auto-rotate head. I thought the whole point of the rotating tool was so the head would rotate but the pipe would stay in position and that would give an even expansion around the whole joint?
I talked to Uponor and they told me that they expect no failures at 180°F below 220 PSI. I have run compressed air in a 3/4" Pex A line to a trash pump at 80 - 100 PSI that hammers about 100 times a minute. These pumps have been pounding away for 7 years with no failures. I also run a caustic based cleaning solution (pH >13) into a process vessel. No tubing failures, brass fitting last about a year and the plastic fittings have not failed in 7 years. Basically Uponor has a gold mine in the process plumbing field and they appear to scared of it. They told me it was only good for potable water.....clueless ! The biggest advantage of Pex A is in freezing applications. Of all the plumbing technologies, it stands up the best. It will expand enough and shrink back when it thaws.
I worked for a company that tested fittings it was selling wholesale. We tested a sample of secura fittings to1400 psi in each batch. The rep wanted to see when they would break, so we went past 2000 psi when the fitting blew off the end, going straight through the safety block and the block wall behind it.
First time viewing your Channel, even though pex-b performed at higher PSI, I would have to ag😮ree with the plumbers psi would not get that high. If I was an installer I would still choose pex-a because the pressure would never get that high like not even close. So the difference in flexibility would be the determining Factor. PEX a would be my overall choice for ease of installment
You can also get expansion fittings for zurn now as well. While proper crimps are, unsurprisingly stronger than expansion fittings they are ALL good. Crazy to use cpvc anywhere now Adams.
I'd like to see this as a freeze test because the volume of water is restricted. PEX B doesn't expand and may develop a higher PSI. While PEX A fails at a lower pressure, it does expand and therefore the PSI will not climb as high. Subtle difference in the test: closed system vs. open system.
RW team, could you do a video discussing the recent developments in micro tears in PEX-a from chlorine and UV exposure. We have started to see more and more of these leaks in "New" construction homes. Common denominator PEX-A, fractures at the expansion joint on the pipe near the ring and fractures on bends near exterior walls all on the hot side. I have dozens of physicals samples in the past two years.
Nice testing. I would have wanted to see an another test with a kink in the pipe before pressure testing. I would assume that some incompent plumber could accidentally kink the pipe without noticing it and it would be interesting to see how much that will reduce the strength of the pipe.
As a weekend warrior plumber here, I have been immersing myself in Pex information, and found out this info about Zurn Pex B. Is this only Zurn brand? For example, the local big box store here sells Apollo brand Pex-B. According to what I've read, you can't do cold expansion with that brand. It seems that brand of Pex is just as important as type of pex. Is there an advantage to Pex-B Zurn over Pex A Upanor?
@@elBusDriverKC have to get acquainted with product sheets and how to find them, you can also check the related building codes for suggested materials and procedures... all plumbers have to 😉
This test doesn't really do much because as you said, when are you going to exceed pressures that high in a residential or even a commercial plumbing application? The real test would be when it bursts under freezing temperatures. That's really the difference between the two types of pex. That's what I want to see. Which one will behave better in a colder (below freezing) mountainous residential environment?
Awesome! I was just wondering how this test would do in a freezing temp because I believe in your shop it’s nice and cozy and the pex outside in colder climates would probably not do so good. Anyway, just wondering how big of a difference it would be.
Pex-B is definitely tougher but also flexible so I prefer it. However a 1" Pex-B line is miserable to deal with so I prefer Pex-A if I have to do a lot of bends inside a house with a 1" line. But you also shouldn't put PEX-A in the ground. So with houses I spec a 1" Pex-B line coming off of the 3/4" or 1" main. Inside the house I will run a 1" line all the way to filtration, water heater, etc. and then branch off for fixtures. I never put more than one fixture on a 1/2" line with Pex-B. Zero problems out of this approach and Uponor won't change my mind.
Expansion with ice would be interesting. Psi is great with water hammers but the question for me is will the expansion capabilities of pex a survive freezing better than the more ridged pex b.
Neither one of them reliably survive freezing. The only thing is, everyone tests these short pieces of pipe while most houses have a lot of longer sections. I'd like to see a 10'+ section of pipe tested to see if it expands like everyone used to claim it would.
My brother in laws home building plumbing company switched off of Pex-A to Viega press pex fittings. He said they had to do too many repairs on failures with Pex-A.
Im not surprised, Pex B expands when frozen, then goes back to its original shape, weve never had a problem with it, even when it gets down to minus 40 in Canada. Pex A dosent seem to last as long and for some reason gets hard a brittle over time, maybe it has something to do with the chloromine gas they use to sanitize water.
I prefer installing pipework in attics as opposed to under a slab. I would love to hear your take on it. I believe, concrete slabs will outlive any pipework that we put under them. So when the pipework does fail, it is easier to re-pipe the house from the attic. Yes, damage is done to the house, but if you weigh up the cost in my area for slab re-pipes as opposed to a re-pipe in the attic. the slab re-pipe is more expensive than the re-pipe in the attic, including repair costs to the inside. Also, when you have a pipe issue in the attic, you know immediately. It doesn't wash out under your house.
PEX -A is has lots of defects, if you examine the inside surface, especially uponor has lot of issues. PEX B much more rigid and uniform, looks perfect on all surfaces. If you’re worried about losing pressure just use 1 inch or 3/4 inch PEX-B. Only difficult part is getting the rings in perfect position and cutting bent PEX-B Square Perfect.
We had a vendor do a demonstration on stainless tubing compression fittings, Tylok vs Swagelok, and the stainless tubing burst midspan every time. I am curios why the plastic tubing did not burst midspan also.
I've been more curious about the service life of PEX vs copper. I've recently been shopping houses, and it seems the proliferation of PEX is limiting the lifespan of the house compared to copper. I understand the benefits of installing PEX, but replumbing a house isn't a trivial task, especially when the piping looks like a plate of spaghetti, as many new-builds do. What is your take on longevity?
My copper pipes got it first pin hole leak at 15 year and started getting a bunch pin holes at 20 years. My grandpa said the guy who installed it used cheap copper. I’m really only commenting to see others opinions.
I think it mostly depends on your water supply. In my area (Middle Ga) we use PEX B. We only use copper to meet fire code or when needed(around gas appliances). A majority of the water supply here is from personal wells. Ground water that is not run through a treatment plant has the potential to eat through copper very fast. And the quality of the water from the ground can change, it is not set by the guys running the plant. I have seen PEX A that was installed in the early 90's still going strong, but I have seen copper that was installed in the early 1900's that is still kicking as well.
I have always expanded the joint like you did where I bottom the tool out and then expand a few more times. I recently read on nibco or upponor installation instructions (can't remember which one) that you should only expand it one time after it bottoms out. They said it can over expand the joint. 95%+ of my upponor connections have been fine and didn't leak but it made me wonder if I over expanded the joint on the few that did leak.
@@geneticdisorder1900 I have always thought so myself as well but according to the nibco instalation instructions you should not expand more than once after bottoming out. I was initially taught to give it a few extra gos just to make sure you have time to fit it all up. but when I was reading the instructions from the manufacturer while I was waiting on glue to dry it said just what I just said. Don't know if thats true or not and it hasn't seemed to be a problem for me in the past but that's what it said.
I love pex b and Zurn style pex fittings because of how fast/cheap/easy it is but it is certainly inferior to and expanded pex a joint that is full bore. Zurn style pex fittings restrict flow and fuck up pipe sizing. Also you have the potential for a venturi at every tee. Its really possible to get strong suction out of a branch line that could create backflow issues when draining the system.
I've seen several videos about Pex; a few suggest upsizing the inside diameter using Pex with Zurn-type fittings to avoid any flow issues. That appears to make sense given those fittings do reduce inside diameter.
Curious on differences between Matt Risingers test that had same basic results as far as a vs b and fittingsholding, but his burst pressures were closer to the 500lb mark not the 1000lb mark. Wonder what the differences were ?
The only good thing I got from your pressure test was seeing how well the fittings held up. I can't imagine getting to 1000psi with the pumps I want to use.
interesting that the failure happened at a higher pressure with the fast pressurization until you consider that a pipe failure has an elapsed time, so the pressure had time to continue increasing WHILE the pipe was failing. all the same - even I run only a tenth of that pressure.
What really matters is what happens to the material over time. CPVC is great when installed, but becomes brittle and prone to cracking after only 10 years. What are the properties of the material after 19 or 15 years? Can't test that on youtube so its not discussed.
Getting fittings for pex A is not as easy and available as pex b. Is it possible please to test using half inch picks A pipe with 3/4 pex b fitting. Or three quarter pex A pipe with 1 in pex B fitting
I like Pex B I went with Pex B when I did my bathroom. Pex B has study saying it's better to drink out of then Pex A. Pex B also forces you to do a nicer job where pex A you don't have to be as precise because of it Bents easier.
It’s like a screw versus a nail. The screw is “stronger” but it sheers. PEX a is the better choice because it will swell better as well as return to form better than PEX b. Like a nail, it will bend and bend instead of sheering. That’s what you want.
I believe the burst pressure of pex B is listed higher so I'm not surprised. That said I'm in northern Michigan and have never seen a pex A failure. Although rare I've seen some freeze failures from pex B, usually copper crimp rings, less so with the stainless ones. Once they are deformed from the ice expanding they never go back to their correct size. That's the beauty of the ProPex system, it all expands and contracts together.
Yes it all fails together as well. Pex b is the safer choice for this type of install. Why do yo think In Europe they had many lawsuits against upponer with pexA failures. Pex b is the choice of a Europeans at this point.
we had a back feed of steam get into pex, it blew the abs fitting off a water softener. but pressure is pressure. im more interested in the longevity (my example was a poorly designed water cooling system for an industrial autoclave)
Try using zurn pex b with pex a style fittings the zurn pipe is actually formulated to be expanded even thou its a b pex blend pex a i have started hearing it is having simmilar issues as quest used to because the color coating on pex a when it is put on it cooks out some chemical that makes it resist clorine corrosion so in my house i actually used expansion fittings with zurn pex b to hopefully mitigate the pipe issue with pex a that could be why upanor stopped color coating there pipes ive noticed they have all been comming in clear but idk thats all my opinion probly should look into thou and srry about spelling
@@RogerWakefield How about filling the tank with 160F water like would be fairly common in radiant heating or some houses before a mixing valve. Then let it sit for twenty minutes to soak the heat in and test. Also test again with various common forms of damage. Nicking it with a shovel, scratches due to dragging it in a trench, or sliding a shovel along it to dig it up. Slight crooked crimp rings, the stainless crimp ring style, kink it and then test (how bad is it really), bend it over an edge of a hole through 2 by x material like would be common in running it thru stud cavities, does a tight radius and the stress on the fitting reduce it a lot, does the exiting a slab, and the rigid to free situation cause it to fail much lower? Lots more interesting tests can be done with this setup.
@@RogerWakefield make up a connection to fill it with water. Than pressurize it with regulators connected to a nitrogen tank. Can pretty accurately get whatever pressure you want on it.
I live in the house which was built in 2005, and pex b start cracking on 90-degree angels what do i do now change it to pex a or replace with new pex b?
on pex a how important is it that the brass fitting barb has no nicks or gouges in it? reason i ask shark bite uses a plastic sleeve over the barb where as Apollo just puts the fitting in the package up protected
How about a high pressure test where you set the pressure at increasing psi increments to see which pex fitting will start leaking first? In this test, it seems the pipe reached its limit and gave out long before the fittings were able to.
Several things I noticed, one you used the same color pipe. Might have been better to use the two colors so people know the difference. Also I noticed all the failures were close to the ends. Is this just a freak coincidence or is there a problem with the fitting installation weakening the pipe (yea does it really matter at 10 times normal pressure). Matt Risinger also did a test like this (actually he was testing fittings) and his also failed near the fittings. Curious if this is something to investigate further.
I am installing a 1/2 inch 3 way ball valve in my motorhome. I have very little space in back of the valve and need to use a 1/2 inch NPT to PEX elbow. When I tighten the pipe elbow, it orients away from where I need it pointing. What can I use to get the threads tight and in the direction I need it pointing to?
PEX B is actually known to be the better product - it's stronger, and leeches less chemicals into the water. Yes, PEX A lets you unkink the pipe, but you really shouldn't be kinking it in the first place. The flexibility of PEX A is also nice, but you can warm up PEX B and it'll be fine. PEX A has some durability issues, with several brands having failures. PEX B has not had this issue. The only real benefit of PEX A is the full-flow connections, PEX B has slight restrictions, especially if you use plastic fitting (don't use plastic, use metal fittings).
I’m confused. Online it says that frozen water pipes increases the pressure from the normal 30-60psi operating range to 40,000psi. If both Pex types burst at 1000ish psi, how are they able to handle frozen water?!
There is legit no reason to use Pex B for the most part, unless you are working in a home that already has it. Uponor is rated for the expansion rings AND crimp rings. Uponor is more durable during freezing events, more flexible, easier to run in long distances or around bends. This test is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant, espically considering the highest PSI you will ever find in any given residential or commercial application is rarely higher than 130 PSI, and is most often in the range of 40-120 PSI.
I remember reading a long post about a plumber who had Uponor fail at his house, I think his garage ceiling. They boasted a great warranty but despite him doing everything right they fought him and turned him away. I like the concept but his post really turned me away from liking that product. A company that won't stand behind their product tells me all I need to know about that product and the company that made it.
You might also conclude that the pex A might do better in a freeze condition do too the fact it is a little more flexible. That might be the best test of all.
This is my take. This test made me excited when I stumbled across it. I’ve always been skeptical about pex a fastening method. I was looking for a failure at the crimp joint. Neither product failed at that joint which is remarkable.
For me its the opposite. A crimp ring made of metal will corrode and fatigue over time. The whole point of going plastic is because its non reactive and lasts an incredibly long time. If you add metal you ruin point of going plastic. Pex A is constantly trying to shrink so it will always remain strong.
As someone who knows a bit of polymer science, the conclusion is what I expected because stiffer probably means higher molecular weight and/or more cross linking and stronger in similar polymers.
Dido, except. I am very confused as far as the aging of these types of connectors relying on the contraction of a polymer. You know as well as I do that that polymers do tend to "relax" overtime. Heat cycles will impact that as well, so how long before they relax enough to allow the fitting to fail?
@@fredpinczuk7352 because the polymer is crosslinked, it will not creep in the expected manner before the polymer actually degrades from UV or oxidation or similar.
Yes the biggest risk of all these systems, aside from poor installation crimping, expansion, is uv exposure. When you have a toilet supply exposed to uv light in. A bright bathroom, don’t expect this to last 50 years !
I've worked in plastics for about 30 years (mainly working with HDPE, polypropylene, and styrene) and I would have been very surprised if PEX B failed first. I assume PEX A has some elastomeric additive / impact modifier, such as maybe kraton, added to it to make it more flexible and kink resistant. The elastomer will not only add flexibility but detract from the over all strength to some extent or another.
Hi Roger, love the channel. Could you make a video about valves? which ones you like and which ones hold up the longest in your experience? Ball valves, gate valves, ect. Would love to see a breakdown of some of them. Older ones and new style too. Keep up the great work
Great suggestion! My team will look into it
I like those tests you done, but now do me a favor and take each of them and put them under 200psi pressure outside for a year. I like to see which will fail the Florida brutal heat in the sun and in the shade side. Because I got in the last 10 years over 1000 PEX A which failed for customers under mobile homes and around the homes on the exterior alone. And it's the fitting which fails not the pipe. So the bigger thing we learned is for Florida's heat don't use expansion material for the fittings instead used stainless crimp rings instead.
I think CPVC is much worse and it does a great job at withstanding the weather.. but I think using copper, CPVC outside and transition to PEX inside is always the smoothest move for longevity...
That might be why the local HD only sells pex b
It’s not made for uv exposure...
Well from my experience I was working on PEX a from 2012 and when ever you would put the tool on it it would split and crack so I had to put a PEX b fitting on there for it to work also under a trailer in Florida over in chulota
I had an entire 2 story house freeze in Connecticut. The only thing that burst were the copper sections near the on demand heater. The entire house was plumbed with Viega PureFlow Pex B. That's all of the water and radiant floors. Zero failures. The tenant shut the heat off in the summer and the pipes burst the day after Christmas due to good insulation. The whole house had to be gutted.
Ouch. Merry Christmas :( What sucks is it's hard to tell from just that if they were bad tenants or good people who just forgot.
I think the biggest benefit of PEX A is fewer fittings and a higher flow rate. I replaced a PEX B install under my floor with all PEX A and was able to eliminate a lot of fittings the plumber used. Of course he doesn't care if it leaks below a floor that I have no access to underneath.
Why fewer fittings? Wouldn’t it be the same amount regardless?
@@TrillPJ A lot of plumbers will use 90 degree fittings just because it's easier when the pipe can be bent. You can use a special bracket to bend the pipe to ensure no kinks. Fewer connections is always better.
@@adisharr ahhh okay I see what you’re saying
@@adisharr The brackets curve the pipe without causing a kink, and it's faster than having to put a 90 elbow on it, and without loss of water pressure at the 90. I saw one install video where they didn't anchor the curved brackets, but I'm not sure that's good code compliance everywhere.
unless you have a ton of 90s close to each other, it make no difference
Great video! FYI some manufacturers do list their PEX B tubing for use with F1960 (expansion) fitting and rings. Sioux Chief and Viega are the ones that I am aware of but there may be others. I have used Sioux Chief PEX B with expansion fittings with no problem.
Thanks for the info!
Loved this thx roger.would love to see you add copper pipes,and pvc pipes to the test and run them vs the 2 typex pex pipes
I think what customers and people in the trade wants to know is the effect of time on those tubing… because we want something that will last the longest possible!
Good videos keep it !!
Will the water you have hurt the pex A or B from the county?
@@gregsexton6544no
Copper baby, copper. :)
PEX-b for life. Ive been installing it for over 20 years. Zero issues.
Yes
Same
As someone who uses strictly pex a I use expansion connections and crimp connections. Since pex a is able to use both style connections can we see a pex a pipe with the crimp connections to see what it burst at. I’m curious to know if the expansion weakens the pipe that much or if the pipe itself if that much weaker
id lover to see a freeze test, on both pex a and b. highest pressure in a home ive tested as a service plumber is 180psi. i have also done multiple repipes in pex type a through attics, i would like to see a simulation of a freeze break on a hot and cold line in your chamber. maybe you can install another Pex a male adapter on the other side of the chamber with a cap on the outside in some sort of black iron so you have more surface area on the test pipe itself. Thanks roger
They already did a freezer test and PEX B won by a landslide
180 psi is absolutely insane
Frozen water in a confined space exert a tremendous amount of pressure per square inch as many home and business owners found out in Texas a couple of years ago. PEX could have saved many of them a lot of trouble and money. Didn't really care for the test or video until I started thinking about the total use of the information. Thanks
Well thanks for caring 😅 and watching Gary
Awesome demonstration, i ised pex b today for the 1st time this puts me at ease.
Could you also put Suix Chief pex B in the mix? I would love to see their own Pex A versus PEX B because they claim that their pex B can use expansion fittings as well.
My main takeaway is that none of the fittings/joints blew out at that ridiculous pressure.
That is impressive.
Great video.
So Pex B won the pressure test, but what about long term stability? Is it possible it will degrade faster in a slab if used for radiant floor heating? If not, sounds like Pex B would be the best route to go.
I think the big issue with pex is chlorine resistance; if your water supply is highly chlorinated, you might want to look at pex-c (I think it's called that).
Colored pex A is possibly being recalled or class action in place. They leak over time, the white versions are fine
Pipes in my bathroom freeze every winter when temps get into the negatives. I plan on rerouting the pipes under the house instead of inside the wall. I have Pex A and the pipes always thaw out and work just fine when the temps get back into the single digits. I prefer Pex A because it does not restrict the flow of water at the fittings like Pex B does.
From my understanding, The water flow restriction that some mention is due to the use of pex 1/2” tubing which has lower inside dimension if the tubing goes over the fitting. The way around that is using 3/4” tubing so that your end result is 1/2” crimped
I'd like to see that with clear/white pex-a, given the litigation against uponor for the red/blue pex-a. These results are in line with the accusations in the CO class action.
What is the class action against Uponor for?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 there are accusations that the process that colors the red and blue uponor tubing causes defects, leading to microabrasions when the expansion tool is used and causes premature failure. Google and you can easily find the lawsuit.
@@jcoop757 Shit that's not good. Thanks.
I'm no plumber but I've had to fix a lot of leaks with pex i love per b the only failures i see with them is when the crimps are old and corroded and leak but never ever seen one frozen so I love the new age of pex compared to cpvc
Could you do all types of water pipe on a pressure test? Matt Risenger did one but he had them all on a manifold. It would be pretty educational to see them all tested individually. CPVC, Copper, PEX, galvanized, pvc, etc...
We’re working our way up to those type pipes…don’t worry
@@RogerWakefield looking forward to it
I bought a roll of Uponor Pex A for a project that I never got around to. I was concerned about UV exposure so I stored it in a trash bag. When I pulled it out to use it it was seriously discolored and had yellow splotches on it. Not exactly confidence inspiring so I am now leaning towards the Pex B that is certified to use with f1960 expansion like Zurn and Sioux Chief.
As a non plumber it sounds to me like it's more about how many connections you are going to need to make (since each connection with B reduces flow slightly) and whether the pipe might have a chance of freezing. The pressure test was good though to see how strong those connections are.
Good demonstration! Extreme pressure buildup comes from icing (ice formation will start and travel longitudinally along the pipe squeezing/pressurizing the water as it goes). So even if your supply pressure is only 40-80 psi, the ice formation will act like a piston pump and build extreme pressure. The pipe does not burst from physical outward expansion of the ice like most people think.
Hi! Any idea what might be the pipe pressure range for freezing pipe conditions? Do you think pex pipes could withstand couple of consecutive days of 10 degrees below freezing weather?
@@doradean3097 Depends on PEX type, age, and connection. See UA-cam pressure and freezing tests. PEX A (white pipe) doesn't do very well at age 7 or 8 - becomes brittle and weaker. PEX B typically takes freezing pressure better - it will expand like a balloon a little but will usually not burst. Of course, proper install and connection will make a difference. If possible, turn on a faucet to a steady trickle - that will relieve pressure and keep the water above freezing. If exposed to freezing temps all the time, you can also install heat tape, insulation, or... In general, PEX is far better at not bursting from freezing temps than other materials.
Can I use pex B fitting with expansion rings ?
How fast did the pressure increase? I think it would be better to do 5 min at each 100 psi increment to get a feel for duration
Pretty fast, the camera on the gauge was in real time…took anywhere from 3-8 seconds to burst the pipe…I like you’re idea though
Problem of PEXa is that fitting ring last about 15 years or less on hot water before it starts leaking. That's why it's not used widely in Europe. Upponor has a lot of law suits in Europe due to their connections.
Rehau type of PEX connection is much much better and long lasting.
Roger, I have a question....there are rotating and non-rotating expansion tools/heads for PEX-A. I noticed that when you expanded the PEX-A, that you rotated the pipe with the auto-rotate head. I thought the whole point of the rotating tool was so the head would rotate but the pipe would stay in position and that would give an even expansion around the whole joint?
Good stuff, Zurn makes their own expansion head for the milwaukee tools, it needs to be used there around $90.00 a piece 1/2 3/4 1 inch
I talked to Uponor and they told me that they expect no failures at 180°F below 220 PSI. I have run compressed air in a 3/4" Pex A line to a trash pump at 80 - 100 PSI that hammers about 100 times a minute. These pumps have been pounding away for 7 years with no failures. I also run a caustic based cleaning solution (pH >13) into a process vessel. No tubing failures, brass fitting last about a year and the plastic fittings have not failed in 7 years.
Basically Uponor has a gold mine in the process plumbing field and they appear to scared of it. They told me it was only good for potable water.....clueless !
The biggest advantage of Pex A is in freezing applications. Of all the plumbing technologies, it stands up the best. It will expand enough and shrink back when it thaws.
Thank you Roger❤For always posting videos to help us learn more, Your a very good teacher and I appreciate it, Your awesome 👏 🎉
I worked for a company that tested fittings it was selling wholesale. We tested a sample of secura fittings to1400 psi in each batch. The rep wanted to see when they would break, so we went past 2000 psi when the fitting blew off the end, going straight through the safety block and the block wall behind it.
First time viewing your Channel, even though pex-b performed at higher PSI, I would have to ag😮ree with the plumbers psi would not get that high. If I was an installer I would still choose pex-a because the pressure would never get that high like not even close. So the difference in flexibility would be the determining Factor. PEX a would be my overall choice for ease of installment
Pex A for life, it’s what I was introduced to first. And not going to switch sides anytime soon.
You can also get expansion fittings for zurn now as well. While proper crimps are, unsurprisingly stronger than expansion fittings they are ALL good. Crazy to use cpvc anywhere now Adams.
Could you test this using Pex fittings? My folks had their plumping done a few years ago and recently had a leek at a T fitting.
I'd like to see this as a freeze test because the volume of water is restricted. PEX B doesn't expand and may develop a higher PSI. While PEX A fails at a lower pressure, it does expand and therefore the PSI will not climb as high. Subtle difference in the test: closed system vs. open system.
Uponor is great cause it’s fast, but I question it’s longevity. Especially when you use it for a commercial water heaters
What about the newer PowerPEX type products, Expandable PEX-B that install like a PEX-A?
Also, side note: isn’t that proper expander self-rotating?
Freeze test! I'd love to see how they cope with water freezing inside.
RW team, could you do a video discussing the recent developments in micro tears in PEX-a from chlorine and UV exposure. We have started to see more and more of these leaks in "New" construction homes. Common denominator PEX-A, fractures at the expansion joint on the pipe near the ring and fractures on bends near exterior walls all on the hot side. I have dozens of physicals samples in the past two years.
how often are the pipes you're talking about being exposed to UV rays? We could do a test, but we want it to be realistic...
Nice testing. I would have wanted to see an another test with a kink in the pipe before pressure testing. I would assume that some incompent plumber could accidentally kink the pipe without noticing it and it would be interesting to see how much that will reduce the strength of the pipe.
Zurn Pex B can also be used with cold expansion as well. Talked to multiple reps at IBS
As a weekend warrior plumber here, I have been immersing myself in Pex information, and found out this info about Zurn Pex B. Is this only Zurn brand? For example, the local big box store here sells Apollo brand Pex-B. According to what I've read, you can't do cold expansion with that brand. It seems that brand of Pex is just as important as type of pex. Is there an advantage to Pex-B Zurn over Pex A Upanor?
@@elBusDriverKC have to get acquainted with product sheets and how to find them, you can also check the related building codes for suggested materials and procedures... all plumbers have to 😉
Sioux Chief PowerPEX as well.
Pex b has much higher chlorine resistance
It's only certain manufacturer's Pex-B that can be expanded. Both Pex-A and B can be used with crimp/cinch rings though.
This test doesn't really do much because as you said, when are you going to exceed pressures that high in a residential or even a commercial plumbing application? The real test would be when it bursts under freezing temperatures. That's really the difference between the two types of pex. That's what I want to see. Which one will behave better in a colder (below freezing) mountainous residential environment?
Awesome! I was just wondering how this test would do in a freezing temp because I believe in your shop it’s nice and cozy and the pex outside in colder climates would probably not do so good. Anyway, just wondering how big of a difference it would be.
Pex-B is definitely tougher but also flexible so I prefer it. However a 1" Pex-B line is miserable to deal with so I prefer Pex-A if I have to do a lot of bends inside a house with a 1" line. But you also shouldn't put PEX-A in the ground. So with houses I spec a 1" Pex-B line coming off of the 3/4" or 1" main. Inside the house I will run a 1" line all the way to filtration, water heater, etc. and then branch off for fixtures. I never put more than one fixture on a 1/2" line with Pex-B. Zero problems out of this approach and Uponor won't change my mind.
Stick to something other than plumbing. You obviously aren't one.
Nice! I still choose to use PEX A better flow Plus the psi will never reach even 400 psi so no worries here.
What's super impressive is that uponor just with compression on plastic made it that high in pressure.
Expansion with ice would be interesting. Psi is great with water hammers but the question for me is will the expansion capabilities of pex a survive freezing better than the more ridged pex b.
truueee
Neither one of them reliably survive freezing. The only thing is, everyone tests these short pieces of pipe while most houses have a lot of longer sections. I'd like to see a 10'+ section of pipe tested to see if it expands like everyone used to claim it would.
My brother in laws home building plumbing company switched off of Pex-A to Viega press pex fittings. He said they had to do too many repairs on failures with Pex-A.
Im not surprised, Pex B expands when frozen, then goes back to its original shape, weve never had a problem with it, even when it gets down to minus 40 in Canada. Pex A dosent seem to last as long and for some reason gets hard a brittle over time, maybe it has something to do with the chloromine gas they use to sanitize water.
I cant stop looking at that awesome gun safe haha.
I wish you would have tried the different crimp style also
Wow that’s interesting just the pipe burst 🤔 ? Is would you install pex in your house instead of copper
I prefer installing pipework in attics as opposed to under a slab. I would love to hear your take on it. I believe, concrete slabs will outlive any pipework that we put under them. So when the pipework does fail, it is easier to re-pipe the house from the attic. Yes, damage is done to the house, but if you weigh up the cost in my area for slab re-pipes as opposed to a re-pipe in the attic. the slab re-pipe is more expensive than the re-pipe in the attic, including repair costs to the inside. Also, when you have a pipe issue in the attic, you know immediately. It doesn't wash out under your house.
I am against pipes in the attic! Especially in Texas, it is too hot and most times difficult to work on and IN!
We do have to repipe at night in the summer. It is truly miserable work.
PEX -A is has lots of defects, if you examine the inside surface, especially uponor has lot of issues. PEX B much more rigid and uniform, looks perfect on all surfaces. If you’re worried about losing pressure just use 1 inch or 3/4 inch PEX-B. Only difficult part is getting the rings in perfect position and cutting bent PEX-B Square Perfect.
We had a vendor do a demonstration on stainless tubing compression fittings, Tylok vs Swagelok, and the stainless tubing burst midspan every time. I am curios why the plastic tubing did not burst midspan also.
The colored pipe for pex a has had problems but the clear stuff is good supposedly.
I've been more curious about the service life of PEX vs copper. I've recently been shopping houses, and it seems the proliferation of PEX is limiting the lifespan of the house compared to copper. I understand the benefits of installing PEX, but replumbing a house isn't a trivial task, especially when the piping looks like a plate of spaghetti, as many new-builds do. What is your take on longevity?
My copper pipes got it first pin hole leak at 15 year and started getting a bunch pin holes at 20 years. My grandpa said the guy who installed it used cheap copper.
I’m really only commenting to see others opinions.
Personally I prefer copper over pex, it looks nicer it lasts longer (if installed and soldered correctly) and rodents tend to not chew on copper 🤷🏻♂️
I think it mostly depends on your water supply. In my area (Middle Ga) we use PEX B. We only use copper to meet fire code or when needed(around gas appliances). A majority of the water supply here is from personal wells. Ground water that is not run through a treatment plant has the potential to eat through copper very fast. And the quality of the water from the ground can change, it is not set by the guys running the plant. I have seen PEX A that was installed in the early 90's still going strong, but I have seen copper that was installed in the early 1900's that is still kicking as well.
@@RogerWakefieldlasting longer is definitely wildly dependent on water quality.
This is off topic but do you have an opinion on Boshart stainless steel PEX fittings?
I have always expanded the joint like you did where I bottom the tool out and then expand a few more times. I recently read on nibco or upponor installation instructions (can't remember which one) that you should only expand it one time after it bottoms out. They said it can over expand the joint. 95%+ of my upponor connections have been fine and didn't leak but it made me wonder if I over expanded the joint on the few that did leak.
Its likely that there was a tiny knick in the fitting on the largest ring seal
I use uponor all the time, you CAN’T over expand it !! The tool head only opens so far and that’s it !!
@@geneticdisorder1900 I have always thought so myself as well but according to the nibco instalation instructions you should not expand more than once after bottoming out. I was initially taught to give it a few extra gos just to make sure you have time to fit it all up. but when I was reading the instructions from the manufacturer while I was waiting on glue to dry it said just what I just said. Don't know if thats true or not and it hasn't seemed to be a problem for me in the past but that's what it said.
@@brasshouse-og I hear you, but I’ve had issues jamming the fittings in, especially if it’s a warm day. I’ve had to slam in the fitting.
Do you have a video on home pressure regulator adjustment
I'm like " Oh crap, my house is full of PEX B!"........ Good to know the bursting strength, thanks Roger!
I love pex b and Zurn style pex fittings because of how fast/cheap/easy it is but it is certainly inferior to and expanded pex a joint that is full bore. Zurn style pex fittings restrict flow and fuck up pipe sizing. Also you have the potential for a venturi at every tee. Its really possible to get strong suction out of a branch line that could create backflow issues when draining the system.
I've seen several videos about Pex; a few suggest upsizing the inside diameter using Pex with Zurn-type fittings to avoid any flow issues. That appears to make sense given those fittings do reduce inside diameter.
I’d love to see a video comparing the flow of both on a line with 10 fittings on each type
Curious on differences between Matt Risingers test that had same basic results as far as a vs b and fittingsholding, but his burst pressures were closer to the 500lb mark not the 1000lb mark. Wonder what the differences were ?
Roger, can you send me the list of components you used to make your pressure test lab set up? I want to duplicate for internal business reasons.
The only good thing I got from your pressure test was seeing how well the fittings held up. I can't imagine getting to 1000psi with the pumps I want to use.
interesting that the failure happened at a higher pressure with the fast pressurization until you consider that a pipe failure has an elapsed time, so the pressure had time to continue increasing WHILE the pipe was failing.
all the same - even I run only a tenth of that pressure.
What really matters is what happens to the material over time. CPVC is great when installed, but becomes brittle and prone to cracking after only 10 years. What are the properties of the material after 19 or 15 years? Can't test that on youtube so its not discussed.
So pex a bend at 30 inches and pex b bend at 12 inches seems real legit test right there!
How about zurn pex B expansion vs pex b crimped?
Getting fittings for pex A is not as easy and available as pex b. Is it possible please to test using half inch picks A pipe with 3/4 pex b fitting. Or three quarter pex A pipe with 1 in pex B fitting
I like Pex B I went with Pex B when I did my bathroom. Pex B has study saying it's better to drink out of then Pex A. Pex B also forces you to do a nicer job where pex A you don't have to be as precise because of it Bents easier.
It’s like a screw versus a nail. The screw is “stronger” but it sheers. PEX a is the better choice because it will swell better as well as return to form better than PEX b. Like a nail, it will bend and bend instead of sheering. That’s what you want.
I believe the burst pressure of pex B is listed higher so I'm not surprised. That said I'm in northern Michigan and have never seen a pex A failure.
Although rare I've seen some freeze failures from pex B, usually copper crimp rings, less so with the stainless ones. Once they are deformed from the ice expanding they never go back to their correct size. That's the beauty of the ProPex system, it all expands and contracts together.
Yes it all fails together as well. Pex b is the safer choice for this type of install. Why do yo think In Europe they had many lawsuits against upponer with pexA failures. Pex b is the choice of a Europeans at this point.
we had a back feed of steam get into pex, it blew the abs fitting off a water softener. but pressure is pressure. im more interested in the longevity
(my example was a poorly designed water cooling system for an industrial autoclave)
Try using zurn pex b with pex a style fittings the zurn pipe is actually formulated to be expanded even thou its a b pex blend pex a i have started hearing it is having simmilar issues as quest used to because the color coating on pex a when it is put on it cooks out some chemical that makes it resist clorine corrosion so in my house i actually used expansion fittings with zurn pex b to hopefully mitigate the pipe issue with pex a that could be why upanor stopped color coating there pipes ive noticed they have all been comming in clear but idk thats all my opinion probly should look into thou and srry about spelling
Don’t worry about spelling I understood, thanks for sharing that!
Great video. Have you done pressure test videos on pvc, cpvc, and/or copper
I did do copper, have not tried pvc or cvpc yet
Would love to see a similar test, but bring it to like 500 psi and hold it there for a bit. See if a fitting develops a leak
That would be a good test…hard to do it with a hydrostatic tester tho…it’s either all or nothing
@@RogerWakefield Maybe AvE or Torque Test Channel could provide some help there.
@@RogerWakefield How about filling the tank with 160F water like would be fairly common in radiant heating or some houses before a mixing valve. Then let it sit for twenty minutes to soak the heat in and test.
Also test again with various common forms of damage. Nicking it with a shovel, scratches due to dragging it in a trench, or sliding a shovel along it to dig it up. Slight crooked crimp rings, the stainless crimp ring style, kink it and then test (how bad is it really), bend it over an edge of a hole through 2 by x material like would be common in running it thru stud cavities, does a tight radius and the stress on the fitting reduce it a lot, does the exiting a slab, and the rigid to free situation cause it to fail much lower? Lots more interesting tests can be done with this setup.
@@RogerWakefield make up a connection to fill it with water. Than pressurize it with regulators connected to a nitrogen tank.
Can pretty accurately get whatever pressure you want on it.
My big question is how long does it take for pex-b metal clips to rust out in humid environments and when buried in acidic soils.
that is a good question, I wish I knew the answer to it.
I live in the house which was built in 2005, and pex b start cracking on 90-degree angels what do i do now change it to pex a or replace with new pex b?
on pex a how important is it that the brass fitting barb has no nicks or gouges in it? reason i ask shark bite uses a plastic sleeve over the barb where as Apollo just puts the fitting in the package up protected
How about a high pressure test where you set the pressure at increasing psi increments to see which pex fitting will start leaking first? In this test, it seems the pipe reached its limit and gave out long before the fittings were able to.
We had it set up to a hydrostatic tester, so small increments of pressure is not doable with our current set up. Its either all or nothing
How about testing the pressure caused by water hammer?
Several things I noticed, one you used the same color pipe. Might have been better to use the two colors so people know the difference. Also I noticed all the failures were close to the ends. Is this just a freak coincidence or is there a problem with the fitting installation weakening the pipe (yea does it really matter at 10 times normal pressure). Matt Risinger also did a test like this (actually he was testing fittings) and his also failed near the fittings. Curious if this is something to investigate further.
Shock wave from pressure
I am installing a 1/2 inch 3 way ball valve in my motorhome. I have very little space in back of the valve and need to use a 1/2 inch NPT to PEX elbow. When I tighten the pipe elbow, it orients away from where I need it pointing. What can I use to get the threads tight and in the direction I need it pointing to?
Cool experiment! The water tower would have to be 2300 feet high to get that kind of pressure!
PEX B is actually known to be the better product - it's stronger, and leeches less chemicals into the water. Yes, PEX A lets you unkink the pipe, but you really shouldn't be kinking it in the first place. The flexibility of PEX A is also nice, but you can warm up PEX B and it'll be fine.
PEX A has some durability issues, with several brands having failures. PEX B has not had this issue.
The only real benefit of PEX A is the full-flow connections, PEX B has slight restrictions, especially if you use plastic fitting (don't use plastic, use metal fittings).
Are there a difference between pex A and pex B fittings? Do they use the same fitting for Pex pipes ? Thanks
Pex a is expansion and pex b is crimped
I’m confused. Online it says that frozen water pipes increases the pressure from the normal 30-60psi operating range to 40,000psi. If both Pex types burst at 1000ish psi, how are they able to handle frozen water?!
There is legit no reason to use Pex B for the most part, unless you are working in a home that already has it. Uponor is rated for the expansion rings AND crimp rings. Uponor is more durable during freezing events, more flexible, easier to run in long distances or around bends. This test is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant, espically considering the highest PSI you will ever find in any given residential or commercial application is rarely higher than 130 PSI, and is most often in the range of 40-120 PSI.
I remember reading a long post about a plumber who had Uponor fail at his house, I think his garage ceiling. They boasted a great warranty but despite him doing everything right they fought him and turned him away. I like the concept but his post really turned me away from liking that product. A company that won't stand behind their product tells me all I need to know about that product and the company that made it.
You might also conclude that the pex A might do better in a freeze condition do too the fact it is a little more flexible. That might be the best test of all.
Can I use regular PEX fittings on PEX A
You should throw PE-RT into the mix.
Doesn't the type A expansion tool have a rotating head? it looks like he is rotating the pipe at the same time.
PEX A keeps full port with connections and Fittings while PEX is reduced. so if flow rate is a issue PEX A would a be better choice.
What about testing the PEX with frozen water in it?
I think ice is the real culprit. Ice can cause pressures of 25,000 PSI +