Again I want to stress my point ! That back then in the 1930s and 1940s too there is film footage - with sound too - of every two bit performer with or without talent from that time period / era ! BUT NOT any film footage of the great guitarist CHARLIE CHRISTIAN ? ? ? ? ? Who is/was and will always be a HUGE DYNAMIC turning point not only in the history of guitar playing BUT in music in general ! What the heck were they thinking of back then ? I just got to know ! Did they NOT see that CHARLIE CHRISTIAN was a phenomenon ? Or then do really think about it was it maybe because he was a " BLACK " man and THEY did not want to recognize HIS talents ?
Loved hearing this interview, particularly the information that described the way Charlie Christian referred to others, in example, “The Benny” or “The John”. I’ve heard people talk about Lester Young’s way of addressing folk, such as “Lady Day”. But this one has me scratching my head.
Great to hear Barney talking about the great Charlie Christian. There is so much to like about both of these great guitarists. Charlie had a great tone--it had as Barney says a horn-like quality. His sense of time, the kinds of lines he played and the interesting way of playing the harmonies. Barney was also great. I want to recomend two records that show his brilliance: To Swing or not to Swing, and his work on Julie is Her Name. Barney was a superb accompianist and he also played wonderful bebop lines.
❤❤❤ I especially love what Barney says at 24:00. Learning to play something just for your own enjoyment like a lot of us did in the beginning. I love being able to play a little SRV or EVH or Wes at home alone just because I love their music. Notice I said “their music”, not their technique. Peace
Barney was really a sweet guy. I attended a Summer Jazz Cap he used to run in the CA mountains somewhere, probably Tahoe, out of the city of Concord CA, which was thoroughly enjoyable. About 1974. Really lit me up as to playing jazz and bebop. Years later I went a gig he was playing at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco, and went up and said hello after the gig. I introduced myself, and he asked what I was doing at the time. "Just playing in a dopey bar band", I said. He asked "What's a bar band?" I said "Well, let's just say I play a lot of barre chords" and we both got a good laugh.
Yes, thanks for sharing! The infamous jam story told at 32:45 is a great lesson for life in general. If younger players want to really appreciate why CC was so special, you should spend a little time first checking out the "banjo" tradition, to see the context of what an impact he really made. Bessie Smith's "Aggravating Papa" showcases the style that a banjo accompanist had in the 20s - very rhythmic, staccato, percussive. Listen to any tracks Eddie Lang made (plenty of duets with Joe Venuti and Lonnie Johnson); while he was very proficient at single note work, Lang's very percussive rhythm style is still rooted in the banjo style, and his guitar is firmly the first 'acoustic' style Kessel mentions. Freddie Green continued this style with Count Basie in the 1930s and beyond, and there were plenty of tenor guitar players (Tiny Grimes, et al) well into the WW2 era who continued banjo style accompaniment. The closest more recent example of the revelation CC would have been in 1940 would be to watch all the other guitar players appearing on the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival...and then watch Hendrix' set there. It's like a spaceship suddenly landed from another universe. Immediately after that festival, everything changed and R&R guitarists chased that sound. So much so, that - at least until EVH - when you hear modern rock guitar, you're hearing Hendrix. CC, same deal w jazz.
Very interesting how he differentiates between an amplified acoustic guitar, then an "electric guitar" - which is the class he places Charlie into, then "electronic sound," which is where he places rock guitar. And great job by Jas just letting him talk and keeping the interruptions to a minimum. Barney Kessel is one of those people (Dave Liebman comes to mind as well) who, when they are speaking, you need to not only be listening, but taking notes.
I can't thank you enough for sharing this. Christian and Kessel are my two favorite jazz guitarists in the pre-fusion era. Kessel's point about Charlie playing chords in his solos no one else was playing is particularly useful--his use of diminished arpeggios in blues solos is a great example. Kessel's remarks on tone and phrasing are also great commentary on Christian's playing. Your questions are also great in focusing the discussion and bringing out various points about guitar and jazz. It's one of the best interviews I've ever heard.
At the time of this interview, Mary Osborne was still alive (died in '92) --she would have been another good source to interview. She was a jazz guitarist and used to hang with Christian. She was quoted as saying that the first time she heard CC play live, she thought it was a tenor saxophone distorting through the microphone.
"In time, some of these fads do not stand up..not only do they not stand up, they die." Barney Kessel was really on top of it man. Thank you for posting this Jas.. I mean it. Thank you
I had found a Mary Osborn cd at the library. I had that cd for months and was depressed when I had to finally return it. She was great. I didn't know her background but it all makes sense she was a Charlie Christian fan. She could swing with the best of them. I need to pick up that cd.
Brilliant interviewing. Asking great questions and not butting in. Plus a terrifically honest and well informed assessment of a musical prodigy from Mr Kessel.
Bring a black guitar player for 49 years, I really heard of Christian until recently. Oh how I want to know more and learn from his playing. I'm new to Real Jazz until now. Recently bought a Ibanez Impressionist Artcore. I'll scour the internet for his work. What a legend!!!!
z - It is good that you did not miss out on CHARLIE CHRISTIAN even though you got to HIM later in your life at least you will now go on and absorb his soul and feelings for your next 49 years and remember that the guitarists Django Reinhardt - Eddie Durham -Teddy Bunn - Art Garrison - Barney Kessel - Tal Farlow - Al Casey were there too so have a listen !
Wow!! His elaborations on the texture and feel of Charlie’s tone give eloquent voice to something I’ve had in my head for a long time, but could never quite explain. I never had a big interest in Barney Kessel’s music, but I will now dip into it (anyone have suggestions?). Charlie Christian’s stuff w/Benny Goodman is tops for me
I love listening to Barney pontificate about jazz, music and life. I wish he would've written a book. It'd be nice if someone could compile his interviews and record reviews. He's always entertaining and insightful. Thanks Jas for uploading this!
There is a book entitled "The Guitar" By Barney Kessel via Windsor Music Co. in Hollywood, California. I had seen it occasionally in photos on the internet and finally found a copy not too long ago. It is spiral bound with a hardback cover; sanguine in color with a graphic in gold. Originally copy-written in 1967, my copy is from the fourth edition in 1975. It has fifteen chapters and starts with "How to select a guitar". Chapter Five is The Art Of Transposition. There are chapters on how to practice, rhythm, technique, "The Sound of Your Music", "The Structure Concept", voicings, substitution, improvisation with chords, the art of accompaniment and topics on playing professionally. I plan to work through the book while also studying his old black and white videos on playing. Keep an eye out and maybe you can find a copy. By the way. I recently attended a workshop that included Bruce Foreman as a mentor. He now owns and plays Barney's guitar. He was kind enough to let us play it a bit as well.
In 1940, the musicians met and jammed in their mutual hometown of Muskogee, Oklahoma. Whay can't you get it Right? Barney Grew Up in Muskogee, Oklahoma and My Father knew him. My father was taking Piano and Guitar lessons from the same Teacher in Muskogee. ( my dad was not a professional musician) I seen Barney muself the year The Animals sang House of the Rising Sun. Barney had on Shorts with is Beard- i was 13 Years Old--I Thought he was a Beatnick ( I was born 1949. ) Barney died of Brain Cancer.
I think Barney is 100% right about Charlie Christian.. Of all the great guitar players/musicians who are qualified to make such judgements, he's right up at the top. I would go so far as to change Miles Davis' famous quote: "The history of jazz can be told in four words: Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker." I would make it "six words" and add "Charlie Christian". Like Barney, I think his impact and his influence really was that profound. Then there's the ultimate miracle of all: everything Charlie recorded was in a period of about 5 or 6 years, then he was gone at the young age of 26. Nobody has ever answered this question: how and where did he learn to do what he did at such a young age?
@18',,,, IRV ASHBY, OSCAR MOORE, WILBERT WYNNE - all infl by CC. Jimmy Shirley, Al Casey, George Barnes, Jimmy Wyble, Skeeter Best, Les Paul, Billy Butler ...
I always believed what he says here..from the 1st time I heard Charlie it just seemed like every electric guitar player since was just trying to sound like CC
Great interview, but I can't believe he didn't mention Django Reinhardt, he was way more advanced than ANY guitar player. And Django was VERY harmonically advanced at the time, he was using super impositions, the differences in were, Django hardly ever played bluesy pentatonic type lines. Charlie must have heard Django?
If my research is correct, during Charlie's lifetime Django Reinhardt records were only issued by labels based in France -- i.e., HMV, Swing, and Decca's French subsidiary. It's quite possible he never had an opportunity to hear a Django 78.
Cool it makes me somewhat more interested in Barney Kessel, keeping it real AF, able to call out Buddy Holly for being a bitch at the last minute. ha ha. straight up.
For Barney to recommend another guitarist that he learned so much from is saying something great about both of them.May they both RIP.
Absolute gem. Sometimes the internet is amazing.
Seriously! This is incredible 🤩
The Internet is only as incredible as the people on it !
Right?!
Again I want to stress my point ! That back then in the 1930s and 1940s too there is film footage - with sound too - of every two bit performer with or without talent from that time period / era ! BUT NOT any film footage of the great guitarist CHARLIE CHRISTIAN ? ? ? ? ? Who is/was and will always be a HUGE DYNAMIC turning point not only in the history of guitar playing BUT in music in general ! What the heck were they thinking of back then ? I just got to know ! Did they NOT see that CHARLIE CHRISTIAN was a phenomenon ? Or then do really think about it was it maybe because he was a " BLACK " man and THEY did not want to recognize HIS talents ?
Loved hearing this interview, particularly the information that described the way Charlie Christian referred to others, in example, “The Benny” or “The John”. I’ve heard people talk about Lester Young’s way of addressing folk, such as “Lady Day”. But this one has me scratching my head.
Great to hear Barney talking about the great Charlie Christian. There is so much to like about both of these great guitarists. Charlie had a great tone--it had as Barney says a horn-like quality. His sense of time, the kinds of lines he played and the interesting way of playing the harmonies. Barney was also great. I want to recomend two records that show his brilliance: To Swing or not to Swing, and his work on Julie is Her Name. Barney was a superb accompianist and he also played wonderful bebop lines.
Fantastic
❤❤❤ I especially love what Barney says at 24:00. Learning to play something just for your own enjoyment like a lot of us did in the beginning. I love being able to play a little SRV or EVH or Wes at home alone just because I love their music. Notice I said “their music”, not their technique. Peace
Barney was really a sweet guy. I attended a Summer Jazz Cap he used to run in the CA mountains somewhere, probably Tahoe, out of the city of Concord CA, which was thoroughly enjoyable. About 1974. Really lit me up as to playing jazz and bebop. Years later I went a gig he was playing at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco, and went up and said hello after the gig. I introduced myself, and he asked what I was doing at the time. "Just playing in a dopey bar band", I said. He asked "What's a bar band?" I said "Well, let's just say I play a lot of barre chords" and we both got a good laugh.
Yes, thanks for sharing! The infamous jam story told at 32:45 is a great lesson for life in general.
If younger players want to really appreciate why CC was so special, you should spend a little time first checking out the "banjo" tradition, to see the context of what an impact he really made. Bessie Smith's "Aggravating Papa" showcases the style that a banjo accompanist had in the 20s - very rhythmic, staccato, percussive. Listen to any tracks Eddie Lang made (plenty of duets with Joe Venuti and Lonnie Johnson); while he was very proficient at single note work, Lang's very percussive rhythm style is still rooted in the banjo style, and his guitar is firmly the first 'acoustic' style Kessel mentions. Freddie Green continued this style with Count Basie in the 1930s and beyond, and there were plenty of tenor guitar players (Tiny Grimes, et al) well into the WW2 era who continued banjo style accompaniment.
The closest more recent example of the revelation CC would have been in 1940 would be to watch all the other guitar players appearing on the 1967 Monterey Pop Festival...and then watch Hendrix' set there. It's like a spaceship suddenly landed from another universe. Immediately after that festival, everything changed and R&R guitarists chased that sound. So much so, that - at least until EVH - when you hear modern rock guitar, you're hearing Hendrix. CC, same deal w jazz.
Two of my heroes: Barney and Charlie.. Thank you so much - appreciated from my heart.
Man thank you so much. I'm an Oklahoma boy, worship Christian and Kessel. Never heard this before, such a treat.
Very interesting how he differentiates between an amplified acoustic guitar, then an "electric guitar" - which is the class he places Charlie into, then "electronic sound," which is where he places rock guitar. And great job by Jas just letting him talk and keeping the interruptions to a minimum. Barney Kessel is one of those people (Dave Liebman comes to mind as well) who, when they are speaking, you need to not only be listening, but taking notes.
I can't thank you enough for sharing this. Christian and Kessel are my two favorite jazz guitarists in the pre-fusion era. Kessel's point about Charlie playing chords in his solos no one else was playing is particularly useful--his use of diminished arpeggios in blues solos is a great example. Kessel's remarks on tone and phrasing are also great commentary on Christian's playing. Your questions are also great in focusing the discussion and bringing out various points about guitar and jazz. It's one of the best interviews I've ever heard.
Thank you, Gary.
Thank you for this wonderful interview
Amazing to preserve this history. Barney is so articulate.
That was great ! Thank you. Barney said some truly wise things, especially near the end there. MAN that was good
OCT 17TH 2023 - BARNEY CENTENNIAL. CONGRATS TO THE LAND OF THE ETERNAL CHORD ! ! ! Thank U 4 the music 🇫🇮
Amazing to know Barney met and played with CC. Great post
How great to hear one legend discussing another with such admiration.
In an interview, Wes said he would play Charlie Christian solos on his earlier gigs.
At the time of this interview, Mary Osborne was still alive (died in '92) --she would have been another good source to interview. She was a jazz guitarist and used to hang with Christian. She was quoted as saying that the first time she heard CC play live, she thought it was a tenor saxophone distorting through the microphone.
@user-md9ok2wv6r Mary Osborne's son is a classical bass player in Bakersfield California.
"In time, some of these fads do not stand up..not only do they not stand up, they die."
Barney Kessel was really on top of it man.
Thank you for posting this Jas..
I mean it.
Thank you
I had found a Mary Osborn cd at the library. I had that cd for months and was depressed when I had to finally return it. She was great. I didn't know her background but it all makes sense she was a Charlie Christian fan. She could swing with the best of them. I need to pick up that cd.
What a phenomenal interview Jas. Let Barney go and it sure paid off for us listeners/ players.
Thanks for publishing this wonderful time capsule
A real gem! I learn his solo’s. Enjoyable.
Guitarist from Belgium.
Wow. Just wow
great post
Wow! The actual original interview. This is gonna be great. Thank you!
Brilliant interviewing. Asking great questions and not butting in. Plus a terrifically honest and well informed assessment of a musical prodigy from Mr Kessel.
this was wonderful! Thank you
Fascinating interview - thank you so much!
All of your uploads have been fantastic, please keep uploading!
Bring a black guitar player for 49 years, I really heard of Christian until recently. Oh how I want to know more and learn from his playing. I'm new to Real Jazz until now. Recently bought a Ibanez Impressionist Artcore. I'll scour the internet for his work. What a legend!!!!
z - It is good that you did not miss out on CHARLIE CHRISTIAN even though you got to HIM later in your life at least you will now go on and absorb his soul and feelings for your next 49 years and
remember that the guitarists Django Reinhardt - Eddie Durham -Teddy Bunn - Art Garrison - Barney Kessel - Tal Farlow - Al Casey were there too so have a listen !
Thanks Jas keep um coming 🎸
Wow!! His elaborations on the texture and feel of Charlie’s tone give eloquent voice to something I’ve had in my head for a long time, but could never quite explain. I never had a big interest in Barney Kessel’s music, but I will now dip into it (anyone have suggestions?). Charlie Christian’s stuff w/Benny Goodman is tops for me
There is some great accompaniment that Barney Kessel did with Billie Holiday on Verve in the mid 1950s. One of the best tunes for me is "I'll Wind."
ua-cam.com/video/MDoYTA4J_CU/v-deo.html
Bless your channel
This is pure gold!!
Thank you so much for sharing this. Beautiful stuff ❤️
Thank you so much for these wonderful interviews!
This is incredible! Thanks for posting, Jas!
Thanks for posting, this is truly inspiring!
This is awesome! Thanks Jas!
This is amazing! Thank you so much for sharing this piece of guitar history.
That's remarkable, thank you Jas!
Awesome interview :)
It's been a long time since this interview but we are very grateful for it's posting.
Wow - I had that GP issue. Thank you so much!
I love listening to Barney pontificate about jazz, music and life. I wish he would've written a book. It'd be nice if someone could compile his interviews and record reviews. He's always entertaining and insightful. Thanks Jas for uploading this!
It's amazing, it seems like there's still new Barney coming out. I've been searching out Barney bits for decades
There is a book entitled "The Guitar" By Barney Kessel via Windsor Music Co. in Hollywood, California. I had seen it occasionally in photos on the internet and finally found a copy not too long ago. It is spiral bound with a hardback cover; sanguine in color with a graphic in gold. Originally copy-written in 1967, my copy is from the fourth edition in 1975. It has fifteen chapters and starts with "How to select a guitar". Chapter Five is The Art Of Transposition. There are chapters on how to practice, rhythm, technique, "The Sound of Your Music", "The Structure Concept", voicings, substitution, improvisation with chords, the art of accompaniment and topics on playing professionally. I plan to work through the book while also studying his old black and white videos on playing. Keep an eye out and maybe you can find a copy. By the way. I recently attended a workshop that included Bruce Foreman as a mentor. He now owns and plays Barney's guitar. He was kind enough to let us play it a bit as well.
Wow what a great interview thanks! How did you record the phone conversations back in those days?
🔥
he was the God of jazz guitar.
In 1940, the musicians met and jammed in their mutual hometown of Muskogee, Oklahoma.
Whay can't you get it Right? Barney Grew Up in Muskogee, Oklahoma and My Father knew him. My father was taking Piano and Guitar lessons from the same Teacher in Muskogee. ( my dad was not a professional musician) I seen Barney muself the year The Animals sang House of the Rising Sun. Barney had on Shorts with is Beard- i was 13 Years Old--I Thought he was a Beatnick ( I was born 1949. ) Barney died of Brain Cancer.
I've heard Barney had lessons from a traveling WPA instructor, of Hawaiian origin, in the 1930's . I wonder if they were in the same WPA class.
I think Barney is 100% right about Charlie Christian.. Of all the great guitar players/musicians who are qualified to make such judgements, he's right up at the top. I would go so far as to change Miles Davis' famous quote: "The history of jazz can be told in four words: Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker." I would make it "six words" and add "Charlie Christian". Like Barney, I think his impact and his influence really was that profound. Then there's the ultimate miracle of all: everything Charlie recorded was in a period of about 5 or 6 years, then he was gone at the young age of 26. Nobody has ever answered this question: how and where did he learn to do what he did at such a young age?
BARNEY 1 0 0 TODAY OCT 17TH 2023. Thx 4 the string magic 🇫🇮
BARNEY KESSEL tells it like it is - - and like it WAS !
Talking Guitar: Jas Obrecht's Music Magazine did you live in San Francisco ? Remember Real Guitars?
💥💥🔥🔥💯💯❤️❤️
@18',,,, IRV ASHBY, OSCAR MOORE, WILBERT WYNNE - all infl by CC. Jimmy Shirley, Al Casey, George Barnes, Jimmy Wyble, Skeeter Best, Les Paul, Billy Butler ...
Great interview.. kinda took me by surprise at the very end with him saying “he was a bitch” haha
I can hear Charlie Christian in Wes Montgomery s playing?
Did the John Hammond and Benny Goodman interviews come to fruition?
Yes. I mention this at the end.
So they’ll be coming? I didn’t realize the interview you posted just was released very recently. That would be very cool. Thank you
😎
I always believed what he says here..from the 1st time I heard Charlie it just seemed like every electric guitar player since was just trying to sound like CC
We hear CHARLIE CHRISTIAN on many recordings BUT is there any film footage with sound or even with out sound of CHARLIE CHRISTIAN that we can watch ?
Great interview, but I can't believe he didn't mention Django Reinhardt, he was way more advanced than ANY guitar player. And Django was VERY harmonically advanced at the time, he was using super impositions, the differences in were, Django hardly ever played bluesy pentatonic type lines. Charlie must have heard Django?
If my research is correct, during Charlie's lifetime Django Reinhardt records were only issued by labels based in France -- i.e., HMV, Swing, and Decca's French subsidiary. It's quite possible he never had an opportunity to hear a Django 78.
EDDIE DURHAM was the 1st 1 to electrify it. FLOYD SMITH was the 2nd .
Cool it makes me somewhat more interested in Barney Kessel, keeping it real AF, able to call out Buddy Holly for being a bitch at the last minute. ha ha. straight up.