"Nice" also doesn't seem applicable when making unnecessary life and death decisions for people you'd already told to save themselves and to not engage.
abydosianchulac2 your presuming it’s unnecessary it could very well be the reason they failed their saves or were weakened enough to kill, it was their lives for the GREATER GOOD not just some random mission
Honestly there's a lot to learn from Fjord/Travis as a roleplayer. I think him acting goofy and silly as Fjord makes the scenes where he gets serious WAYYYY more impactful.
at first I hated his decision, to just sacrifice those rangers BUT in hindsight, they were stretched SOO thin and needed that full rest to face Lucian. meaning now Lucian is ahead and setting up and they have almost no resources/spellslots which coupled with the fact that Travis feels the weight of the sacrifices is understandable why he feels it's a failure. their planning amounted to three less "expendables" and they lost the time advantage they had to stop things before Lucian unleashes ... whatever his plans are. Basically they didn't impact endgame and they either face Lucian with no resources or let him bolster up his defenses and maybe succeed at his plan before they arrive = big picture fail
Point of note: this is the second time we've seen Lucien's persona crack. First it was Jester with the cards, but now we've seen Lucien look out of control of the situation. Before the Nein attacked, he was cursing to himself, and clearly surprised. It will be tough to get to him, but for the first time, the Nein are the one's controlling the tempo, not Lucien.
The problem with running a game is most people "act to then react". There's a lot of reaction to npc offense. This feels inherently different. This is predatory, almost. The ideal situation was to have enough (traps) set up to put massive pressure on lucien and dwindle his resources. The scouts, the environment, the charges and traps, then to have more set up, eventually leaving maybe Lucien and one or two. To that end, they achieved a good amount. But you can tell by the mood, Travis and Fjord wanted bigger results. I suppose knowing they can't really rest and recover without giving Lucien that same opportunity puts this really into an attrition war. I should hope the weight of PCs is heavier.
This is why Fjord's choice was the correct one to make no matter what the outcome of the fight itself is. Even if the rangers got completely slaughtered, the fact that they were there at all would likely force the Tomb Takers to second guess themselves, maybe slow down, and put them on edge. Remember, no one was supposed to know about this entrance at all, let alone finding it guarded. This, combined with the work the M9 did to set up their traps and plan their ambush, means the M9 have the advantage in a fight with the Tomb Takers for the first time. That has got to be jarring for Lucien who up until now has been the one dictating the flow. We don't know the extent of the damage the fight with the rangers caused, but even if no health was dropped and the Tomb Takers were put on edge it makes the choice worth it.
@@Om3n2007 i get why Travis and Ford are disappointed. But really this went as well as it could of. Even if they hadn't taken any short rests they'd still be an hour short of a long rest. It's unfortunate that they weren't able to take out Cree but unless that one shot that hit lucien would've made the difference if aimed at Cree instead, idk what they could have really done differently given the knowledge they had of the situation. They even got the fight with the salamanders out the way, which given the dimension door they might have had to deal with when pursuing otherwise. Their chances of winning have gone up significantly imo.
According to RAW, they haven't interrupted their long rest long enough to negate it. They could and at this point should just take another couple hours to be fully recharged. Lucien admitted his plans were fucked now and he's only operating at 40% strength That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Matt denied them their long rest and advanced lucien's progress by 90% because screw the rules
If there were ever a moment that really exemplified where the leadership falls in The M9, it's this one. No one else in the party would have been able to make that decision in either direction. Any other character would have woken up another and tried to deliberate over it, and whatever decision they did make wouldn't have mattered at that point. Fjord made that call w/o any hesitation. Edit: Yikes someone's salty down here
Definitely a leadership move. I’ve seen some comments about being sad about losing Dagan. Maybe so, but I don’t think so. Because (1) he’s always said he wasn’t paid enough to fight, (2) he would have filled the Rangers in on Lucien’s group so they would have known adding him wouldn’t change anything, (3) the Rangers would know that he might be able to provide intel to M9 if they should return. Rangers might be the reason Cree was bloody. Anyway, we’ll see.
lol fjord is not a leader, he doesn't ever 'lead' anyone and he only uses his high charisma once in a blue moon. his call to have them engage here was cool cinematicly but he legit went against what everyone wanted/would've wanted. They all already told the rangers before not to engage the TT before they even went inside
@@disappotato there characters should have been awake for the decision if they wanted to argue. Fjord was asked and made the decision, doesn't really matter IF something else COULD have happened.
Fjord giving the order is a BALLER move, loved it! Travis/Fjord is such a level head in these kind of situations and it's great to see a player act confidently and decisively. He did it too against Gelidon and I loved him from that too
Being frozen when a decision needs to be made is a major problem in any combat situation. The fact he can overcome it and step up makes him the leader the 9 need.
@@jackmyers8687 yeah it's the worst getting caught in two minds, especially when you're worried one of the options isn't what anyone else wants. the fact Travis can cut through all that and make a call, every team needs a player/character like that!
@@ArchreitTheScuttler The way they all shake there heads and Sam calling him a "snake bas***d" made it hard but he still went through with it. Like the sword/lava moment. Who else would have the guts to make such a choice?
@@jackmyers8687 cupcakes would certainly calm me down from wanting to summon a world-devouring city of screaming souls! also yeah it must be hard to see your friends react that way to your big call, but as with Gelidon, and also as with Caleb and the Beacon, sometimes you do just have to trust your gut. also i know they were all worried that the rangers attacking would give them away (which i think was the big concern), but i'd like to think it took even just ONE spell or use of a feat or ability from some of them, just taking something has to be worth it
Kudos to Matt for weaving a situation were “Yes” actually had such emotional weight. If it were random rangers, who cares? But it was Dagon! And Lucian has been established as a credible enemy requiring any possible advantage. Well done.
Fjord knows that when the chips are down and everything is on the line, you have to make the hard calls. Fjord's decision was a coldly pragmatic one, but one that was done with the best of intentions for the people he considers his family.. If the scout troop reported back, they would know that it wasn't Lucien and Co. If they didn't report back, then it was them for certain, and they were coming. It bought the Mighty Nein a little more time, and may have made the difference. I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. But I understand why he did it. Also, Otis' pronouns are now was/were.
Travis came into this dungeon knowing this may be the last time he played Fjord. It was win with some casualties, or all is lost. I know it seems cold but he made the best decision to try and make up for the fact that they had already burned spells and health getting to where they were. If they faced a totally fresh Tomb Takers, the other three might have stayed alive. Hopefully when they continue this arc on Thursday they also focus down on Kree. Always kill the cleric first, especially the one who resurrected Lucien in the first place. Also if they make it out of here some of those rangers might be consecrated and could resurrect, at best they will resurrect Dagon if he didn't make it out of there.
I love Travis taking the hardest stance so “No matter what, we are fucking saving the world, we’ll figure everything else out later” Also bye Dagan :(((((
Eh, these are rangers, I highly doubt that the Tomb Takers could have killed them all, including Dagen. These are pretty highly trained soldiers who know they're outmatched (at least Dagen knows they are), I doubt that the rangers wouldn't have pulled away once things started turning against them.
The right decision isn't always the 'good' one. Whatever Fjord's motivations, his decision was right - if only because it weakened the Tomb Takers. And let's not forget that this is a world ending type arc, so...Good job Fjord.
Fjord's decision regarding the ranger is such a thematically strong move. It's what a true Captain/Commander would do. Specially since what he did to the rangers is nothing he's not prepared to do himself or to his own friends. If the success of an enemy potentially means the end of everything, there's no point trying to save a few if their sacrifice has 1% chance to help stop that enemy.
"You know when you're writing an essay and you forget how to spell a word, so you write it in bad cursive so they think you know how to spell the word?" Never have I related to something *so much*
I love Travis so fucking much. My favorite D&D player, with Sam close behind. It's amazing how they are two of the ones with the least D&D experience, but they just do an amazing role both in the roleplay aspect, as well as in the mechanical aspect. I love those two badasses.
When I watched this, and Travis/Fjord made that call...I honestly felt my entire opinion of Fjord Change. That's why I love this show. It's a d&d game, but it throws me around emotionally just like the Sopranos and Breaking Bad. It's that powerful.
This was the most stressful episode to watch I can remember. Lots of other tense moments like Bazzoxan and the crone, but just watching spellcasters dwindle down their resources (and hit dice while still being below max) had me pretty much watching Matt for a sneaky "the TT are here" roll the entire time.
fucking AWESOME choice by travis and for fjord emotionally i means so much, he's had an amazing journey when it comes to taking charge and making the hard choices as it becomes do or die even if they aren't necessarily the morally right thing to do. i hope trav keeps his grit in the next ep, i know he took the ending of last session hard.
Travis became a real chess man or strategic captain with his decision to sacrifice the Rangers. it was the only logical choice. also the battle was a tactical master stroke, like Marisha said at the end. it was to try and whittle them down. I honestly didn't see it going that well.
I really like the interactions at 13:33. Very cool to see Travis compliment both Matt and Sam even after his plan didn’t work. He really is such a good team player.
Oh my gods, I don't what possessed me, but at some point near the end, I was just screaming "DIVINE INTERVENTION!" at the screen like the bloody, devil, my housemate walked into my room, the poor girl looked visibly disturbed by whatever the hell she heard from her point, even I was stunned by my own volume
YES! I was hoping for a "Devine Intervention" as well...! hopefully it won't come to that but maybe they kept it as a last resort if Tomb Takers mange to execute their plan.
Yep, this is it. This is my favorite moment in the entirety of Fjord's character arc. Everything thing has lead to him being the defacto leader of the M9 and knowing that he has to make difficult decisions to ensure that they succeed. He did this knowing that it gave them the best chance of success, and the entire world could hinge on it. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made. This was the best.
I agree with fjord’s decision but not the reason for it. I feel like the undead giants’ bodies would have given them away if there hadn’t been anybody else to shift the blame to. The rangers attacking may have made Lucien think they killed them.
THis is what makes D&D so special, we are having a moral dilemma, and dealing with the impact of choices made, over some figments om imagination. But it is impactful.
It does not matter whether it was the right call (hell even Travis regrets it), what matters is that a call was made. Fjord has been very vocal about his priorities on this mission and they boil down to: Save the many. The rangers, especially Dagen, knew the risk in facing the Tomb Takers - they had likely already accepted their fates be it death or damaged. The decision Fjord made was cold, uninformed and pragmatic, this is serious, fate of all life shit - and yet the decision makes sense with Fjord's character, he is very aware that what comes around the next corner could very well be the end. He is prepared to lay down his life in order to protect what he cares about - and he expects anyone else involved in the mission to be the same. Sure he might be a goof and prone to fear but in the moments before a fight, when a tough decision has to be made, he does not falter, he does what he thinks is right in the moment. (Expertly displayed in the return of Gelidon - "Analysis Paralysis" as he said) Quick note since I see people saying "The rangers alerted the TT that it was a trap" - dudes chill out, they are rangers that are under orders to patrol the Aeor site and its surroundings. From the perspective of the Tomb Takers this could have been a patrol that just so happened to cross their path. This in no way alerts them to the presence of the Nein. Do I agree with the decision to essentially march people to their graves? No, but I understand it. (I also believe Caleb and possibly even Veth would have made a similar call had they been there.) Do I think it was the right call? I have no idea, it's a very hard choice to make, one I know I couldn't make - at least not in as collected a manner as Fjord. I get why people are so hung up on this and why it would frustrate them, but I see this as an amazing character moment for Fjord and a demonstration of the things at stake in the present moment. Also, Im not certain on the distance from the entrance to the first Intuit charge but the Rangers could have been in the 300ft radius of those things anyway (This is speculation, I have absolutely no clue and cant remember if Matt gave a detailed length from the drop tunnel with the rope to the entrance) - assuming this is a possibility I can see Fjord making the call as an "If they are caught running the TT will know something's up and if they hide they might get hit anyway." - though again, speculation here. At the end of the day, I think we all know this wasnt really in hopes of getting the long rest - it was hours away and they all know how strong Lucien and his crew are - Travis essentially called in for the rangers to damage the crew as best they could because as Matt said after Heroes Feast "How many times has it come down to one or two hit points?" - we dont know how much damage was dealt by the Rangers, the fall or the charges - it is entirely possible that the efforts of the rangers was what tipped the scales. TL;DR: Man made choice with the greater good in mind and asked THE MILITARY to do the thing they are paid to do in what can only be described as a very morally grey action considering the known strength of the approaching force.
In regards to Fjord's decision about the rangers, I think a lot of people are forgetting that *engaging* does not mean getting into melee. They are *rangers*; they specialize in ranged attacks, which they all would most likely use. There is no way to know if they died, or if they ran as soon as they realized what they were up against. Hell, Dagen has seen the TT fight before, he could have informed the ranger team to just levy one or two rounds of damage, then peace the fuck out. Sending Stones can only be used once a day, so there is a very reasonable explanation as to why there wasn't a second message confirming the success of the ambush. From Fjord's perspective, the benefits of engaging outweighed the potential (not guarantee, potential) of the rangers and Dagen not surviving the fight. If the damage had been enough that the TT would have taken a short rest to heal, it would by the M9 time to finish their long rest. If it wasn't, which seems to be the case, they would force their only cleric, Cree, to use up spell slots to heal, which would have weakened the TT magic users abilities and evened out the playing field. The damage that the rangers dealt could have been the reason 3 out of 5 of the TT didn't survive the M9 ambush.
Not to mention these are pretty well trained rangers, supported by Dagen who knows what the TTs can do. Rather than engaging and trying to kill the tomb takers, which would be a waste of the rangers, its highly likely that they used some other tactics to at least have an effect.
I'm just really peeved that he went against practically the whole parties wishes, they didn't want the rangers to engage even before they went into the ruins
@@disappotato I can understand that. Watching it initially, I felt that way, too. But aside from my gut emotional reaction, I wasn’t as surprised as some seem to have been about this decision. It tracks with how Fjord’s been as a character. He did the same thing to kick off the Gelidon fight; everyone wanted to try and hide, but he thought/realized that she would still be able to smell them even if they were all hiding, and made the decision that it would be better to separate and fight than potentially be taken out all in one shot by clustering together.
@@disappotato Oh yeah that is true, but imo it's completely understandable why he did that, this is a situation where the blood price is, frankly at an all time low, any opportunity to slow down or hurt the TTs in any way is one that needs to be taken.
Travis usually being so goofy and boisterous makes moments like that yes hit so much more. There was no hesitation when he gave the answer, just full confidence in it. He's so incredible at those moments in this Campaign. I was a bit worried in the early sessions, but seeing how Fjord, and I think Travis both, have grown in this campaign...if any many could get me flustered, Travis is definitely especially high if not top of that list, especially in those moments. Also separately, that use of silence, before and after, by Matt and Travis both, to really drive home intentional or not, the weight of the "Yes", is masterful. That's straight to them being veteran voice actors I feel like. Two people, so well versed in the use sound, both in application, and lack thereof, so enthralling.
So yeah I think this shows Fjord is very much now the leader of the Nein beyond a doubt...the sign of a leader is one who will make the hard calls and live with the consequences.
Looking at it in hindsight now, if Beau ran up to Cree and went into melee with her, Cree could've been stuck with Beau's Sentinel. Also, Lucien's anti-magic cone would either have to turn off for them to dimension door or Cree's spells wouldn't haven't worked.
Sentinel doesnt work on forced movement. If it were cree who beau hit as she tried to get to lucien, then maybe, but since its forced movement that doesnt trigger attacks of opportunity
Sorry, I should’ve been clear in the order of events. 1st, Beau throws arc field generator and then runs up in melee range with Cree. 2nd, Lucien’s turn where he changed the direction the cone was pointing at and his movement back. 3rd, Fjord using Far step to kill Zoran. 4th, Lucien uses his 2 legendary actions to shift his focus to Fjord. 5th, Cree tries to use her movement to get to Lucien to use Dimension Door, but Beau keeps Cree in place with sentinel. Basically, the first part of what you said @Danny Bagley is what I meant to say.
Although I love the decision Fjord made as a character I think people are overestimating how much that actually did overall. Of course unless Matt spills the details it’s all speculation. But honestly I don’t think those rangers did much.
Physically, you are probably right. The likelihood they did much damage is minimal. But they would burn a couple spellslots, and daily abilities, possibly some hit die. They also disrupt and distract the plans and though process of the enemy.
By Fjord’s standard of getting M9 the rest they needed by delaying TT, it was a a gamble that failed. As with many command decisions, there won’t be a binary good/bad decision. If his leads to the death of his allies without stopping Lucien or getting them their rest then Fjord will struggle with it. Even if successful he will struggle. My guess is he’ll see their lives as “wasted” if they did die.
I 1000% agree with Fjord’s decision. This is the fate of a continent and possibly the world on the line. M9 are the LAST defensive stand for it, Lucien and the takers are powerful and probably fully rested. The M9 are powerful, but not fully rested. The call makes sense for 2 reasons, buy them more time and cause damage (even minimal) and use up spell slots and possible even a legendary resistance if you’re lucky. Travis mentions feeling super guilty about the decision in Talks but I still think this was the right call. Even if Dagon dies it give the M9 a better chance at winning AND THUS surviving.
I see where Fjord was coming from, but I think it was shortsighted, they were on hour 5 of a rest, I know he wanted to slow down Lucien but I don't think the scout troop would have done enough to stop them for 2-3 hours to let the party finish the rest.
The only thing that could have done that is if the Tombtakers had taken a short rest after their fight... Even still, this could use a lot of spells and do either some damage or waste some time...
I would have done the exact same thing. Even if the rangers can't slow the Tomb Takers down, knowing the entrance is watched might make them slow down, and the party needs rest. Because we saw what happened last time they tried fighting the Tomb Takers before resting up.
I would have supported Travis'/Fjord's call with the rangers etc. If it would have made much of a difference. There was no way the rangers were gonna buy enough time for a full rest to begin with. Plus it was mostly just the intuit charges that F'ed the tomb takers up. So feels that the rangers just got recked for no real reason. Worst case scenario could have been that the tomb takers would have become more alert and noticed the charges somehow.
I personally thought what he did was absolutely brilliant, brutal but it made the most sense and was the moment he stepped up as the Leader. It's Matt I'm unhappy with, he made the sacrifice mean nothing and made Fjord look like an idiot by having the Tomb Takers still interrupt their rest, had I been ruling it I'd have made the Tomb Takers be much more cautious and have them arrive just after everyone finished their long rest, I get that Matt didn't want another Avantika or Iron Shepherds happening again but still, you've got to reward that level of roleplay
So, I get why he made the decision but what I'm confused about is how it was NEVER talked about by ANYONE. It was just Fjord and Essek when he made the call, everyone else was asleep. But when Dagon called Essek and Essek said there were some casualties it seemed like the party was expecting it. I thought they were all going to get on Fjord's case because there shouldn't have been any casualties but they all just let it go? I don't really understand it
fjords decission is quite "good" in the sense that if the rangers actually slow down the tts for 3 more hours the nein basically win, i didnt work, but fjord didnt knew that. even a 1% chance of a long rest is worth trying when the fate of the world is at stake. the nein are also staking their lives on this and without any compensation, none of them are under any obligation to help against this, yet here they are.
she was still hanging on to the rope wasn't she? and No i don't think any of the tomb takers were so he could've finished off kree ensuring lucian couldn't get away.
@Pete W It would have depended on whether he could have gotten to her without being in the cone. If he's in the cone, The Star Razor is just a sword. And speaking of the Anti-Magic Cone, I just realized, now that we know how she did it... I don't think Cree could have actually used Dimension Door the way she did. She didn't use the Spell: Dimension Door. She used a cloak that invokes it on anything wrapped within. To Dimension Door with Lucien, she would need to wrap Lucien in the Cloak. Which would mean a part of the cloak would pass through the Anti-Magic Cone. Wouldn't that alone prevent the Cloak from activating? In order for Cree to have used the Cloak to Dimension Door with Lucien, Lucien would have had to turn the Anti-Magic Cone off which means Fjord should have had the opportunity to Counterpell. Wow... I think Matt grossly mis-played that!
@@ForeverDegenerate You raised a good question with the cloak. But it could be interpret as Fjord, at that moment, didn't know that Lucien have to turn off the anti-magic cone for the cloak to work. So he didn't try to counterspell.
@@Blue_Lunacy Irrelevant. With the Magic Field Device that Allura gave them that Beau activated off the bat, he could physically see the Cone. If Lucien had turned it off, he would be able to physically see that there is no Cone. Travis didn't even attempt the Counterspell because the Cone was never shut off. It might have just been an oversight on Matt's part (allowing the Cloak to work, I mean). What's done is done. Of course, that raises another relevant question. If Cree had to resort to using her Cloak to Dimension Door instead of just casting it, how messed up were the Tomb Takers really? I mean, does that mean Cree had no high level spells left? With what we now know, Cree was a bloody mess AND she resorted to using the Cloak. Given that Cree was a Cleric, I find it hard to believe that she didn't have Dimension Door in her arsenal. Given our current information, I have to wonder if the Tomb Takers were WAY worse off than the majority of people assumed? If that's the case, then maybe the Ranger Ambush actually had a greater impact that any of us realized?
@@ForeverDegenerate You're probably right. Perhaps it will be clarified in the post campaign Talks Machina. It should be interesting. Tomb Takers must took some damage. But wouldn't Cree heal them along the way before the trap? Or they weren't as caution as they should have been and venture in deep, hoping to find a "safe" location before have Cree heal the party.
I just realized something; if those rangers were Kryn, then they didn't even technically "die," right? Although, I'm still muddy on the specifics of how the beacons work.
@@crypto66 not to mention, they have to be within a certain distance of the beacon if they die. There may be one in Aeor but that's a crap shoot and if no one finds it, their soul is kinda screwed and left in the Dodecahedron until someone has a baby near that area.
*Spoiler* Seriously, spoiler. As I can’t find any clips that address it, bear in mind that the scouting party _mostly_ survived, and even let the party know before making it back to the outpost. Feel like that’s worth saying, because while that moment gets Fjord a lot of points, the ‘distraction’ party also (mostly) lived through the event.
I'm not sure why but this story arc had been annoying as hell to me. It really feels like Matt has had to fudge so many dice rolls to keep the story going. The example here to me is Kree being the only one that survived like 200 points of damage and then having a high enough initiative to dimension door before they can get into position to counterspell.
Am I the only one that totally disagrees with what fjord did? I mean how much time did the lives of those rangers buy them... that combat wouldve lasted *maybe* 30 seconds (honestly they probably wouldnt have lasted 2 full rounds against the tomb takers). They have a cleric so the damage sustained wouldnt have been substantial. As fjord said, they’d be more on guard “take more time”... isnt that EXACTLY what they were trying to avoid (at least the on guard part)? That move makes their trap less likely to work, they are expecting something at this point. Especially since these rangers are guarding LUCIAN’S SECRET ENTRANCE. Luckily the trap still went through but its not like fjords decision helped in that matter, matt was rolling so many dice idk if he had the tomb takers making investigation checks or not and I just missed it but if they didnt i think matt may not have played that in the most sensible way for lucian and just let their trap work cause it was cool and they planned it out a bunch. That move wouldn’t get them the long rest anyways and i think fjord/travis fully knows that. So the pros from what i can see: 10 more minutes of sleep for his friends, minimal damage/their cleric having slightly fewer spell slots. The cons: leading Dagen and the no name rangers to the slaughter, lucian is even more on guard. I mean matt even essentially tells travis “if they are who you say, the rangers arent making a dent” I mean honestly i think it was really curel AND stupid cause the overall advantage gained is barely anything (and one could argue youre actually at a disadvantage because lucian is more prepared for a fight beyond the creatures that lie within the ruins of aeor), and the loss is the lives of an entire troop and (dont know if matt played it like this but logically i think he should of) the groups trap having a lower success rate. I mean ultimately it comes down to morals i suppose, how important are the lives of some no names (plus dagen) if they can give you a 5% advantage in the fight to come. I will applaud travis however for doing exactly what fjord wouldve done there, even though i totally disagree with his move (and i think the entire cast also disagreed based on their reactions) it makes things entertaining and im curious what the party will say (if they dont tpk) when they go up and find dagen’s and the rangers’ dead bodies everywhere. Great RP from both travis and matt but rp aside i really think it was not only a cruel decision, it also barely aids them at all. Definitely gonna have to watch the talks machina on this episode and i hope they have travis on to explain exactly what was going through his head on that decision. But all in all thats just my opinion and if you disagree and think im understating the advantage they get from sacrificing those rangers, let me know if i missed something in my considerations, id love to hear some other people’s opinions on this. Apologies to anyone who has read my novel, just was reading the comments and seeing nothing but praise/understanding for fjords actions so i wanted to explore the other side of the spectrum cause (if it wasnt obvious) i think it was a bad choice. Im in no way trying to start an argument, i enjoy conversation with people who have opposing views from mine, it makes things interesting.
@@zedbee2736 as both matt and travis stated damage wasnt the main reason, to reiterate one of esseks quotes hes says “If they are who you say, they arent making a *dent*” and Fjord confirms that notion, i mean cree is a cleric, she probably couldve used her first level spell slots and maybe one or two seconds depending on how injured they actually were topping off the tomb takers. Honestly i dont even know what the longest combat theyve been in was, but i know for sure those combats almost never (feel free to cite a time im unknowing of) go more than 10 rounds. Critical Role Wiki has cree pegged as a level 15 or higher (due to her seeming use of the earthquake spell at the end of the latest episode) cree would still theoretically have all her 3rd, 4ths, 5ths, 6th, and 7th level spells. My point obviously being that those first and second levels arent really used in combat anymore unless you have absolutely nothing left and she most likely has at least has 10 rounds of spells she could cast (10 is gotten from adding all her “remaining” spell slots together) and thats not accounting for any other magical items she has and we should reasonably assume she has something besides the dimension door cloak. Fjord told essek that he wanted lucian to be more cautious, take more time. That line of thought is seriously naive to everything theyve seen from lucian, lucian has worked his people to the bone to gain ground, i dont see him slowing down significantly for any reason. But he may be more cautious/on guard, and that’s exactly the opposite of what you would want someone to be if you’re luring them into a trap. All of this is a long winded way of saying, that advantage seems like nothing when you really think about it, and id argue it puts them at a disadvantage because lucian is even more on guard for an ambush/trap. (And hindsight is always 2020 but i mean we know the trap took out three of the tomb takers, and fjords move didnt help with that it potentially hindered it, but the mighty nein can EASILY take on cree and lucian by themselves, lucian knows this and thats why he ran.)
I don’t believe Fjord made the correct decision here which is ok because I think that’s what makes these characters so compelling. Fjords not perfect, and his response certainly didn’t take away any chills I got from watching it. I do want to give my point of view though because it logically doesn’t make much sense. Fjord’s goal is to give everyone more time to rest, which I understand. However, the amount of time it would’ve taken to reach the MN from the entrance did not seem like three hours. Perhaps if the trap was further into the ruins it would’ve made more sense. You could argue that he did it to gain some sort of advantage like wasted spell slots and reduced hit points, but that wasn’t his reasoning. He sent those men to fight knowing full well they didn’t stand a chance, so the MN could get rest. That goes without saying why would you want the enemy to be aware of your presence? Why would you want them to be more cautious? IMO, they were just lucky that the TT did not discover the trap and were careless enough to send 4 members down the rope at the same time. It’s because of their carelessness that I believe the outcome would’ve been the same whether or not the rangers engaged. No long rest and 3 dead tomb takers. However, now Fjord has to reconcile with the fact that he sent those men to die for nothing. Although I feel it wasn’t the correct choice, we now get to see how the consequence of fjords actions affect him which make the character more interesting.
@@ForeverDegenerate Certainly possible, but imo it would be more probable that you’d be on your guard when encountering an ambush at what was believed to be a secret entrance if I recall. Even more so after seeing the two dead giants the mighty nein offed when entering the ruins (unless they removed them somehow because I can’t remember). Regardless, being careless will get you killed and that’s what we saw, so it just adds more to the story telling. I guess I just expected more from the tomb takers.
@@christophercantu2005 There were three Frost Giants, I think. And, if I recall, they re-buried them under snow. Also, they were Undead Frost Giants. So, unless Lucien was the one to re-animate them in the first place, dead Frost Giants shouldn't really set off any alarms in his head. As far as being on guard after an ambush, I would agree if they were ambushed INSIDE the entrance. But the Rangers engaged them OUTSIDE the entrance. If I had to guess (and this IS just a guess), I would say the fact that the ambush was outside inside may have made all the difference. Being ambushed outside the entrance, my mind immediately goes to, "They're trying to stop us from entering Aeor." But if the ambush took place INSIDE the entrance, my mind immediately goes to, "Ok what are they trying to protect or stop us from getting to that's already in here?" Ambush Location denotes connotation, I guess is what I'm saying. And since they attacked outside, maybe Lucien felt they were trying to prevent the Tomb Takers from entering as opposed to protecting something already within. Lastly, The Mighty Nein, for once, did a fantastic job covering their tracks and not leaving anything that would tip Lucien off to the fact that they were there. I'm sure Matt took all that into account and rewarded the M9 for all of their careful planning and preparations.
Gotta disagree with most everyone, that call to kill off the Rangers and Dagan was completely unnecessary. They'd done so much adventuring underground they forgot how close they were to the surface. (That is, 60-70 feet through the crawlspace, 150 feet to the entrance, and 10 minutes to the cliff, which is 85-100 feet tall.) Even if the TTs worked more cautiously after killing the scouts (I'm assuming the engagement happened further away atop the cliff), that only entails being careful moving down the cliff and crawling through the tunnel. The immediate next step would be climbing down the rope and hitting the trap. Fjord knew they needed multiple hours left, but severely misunderstood the terrain and how close the enemy was. He sacrificed "pawns" for a time advantage that would never exist. Bad move morally _and_ tactically. ETA: Also, if the three now deceased TTs were expendable and of little concern, it's a strange tactical decision on Fjord's part to use his turn to hack at the bodies instead of going after the BBEG or its healer.
He went for the only one he could get to. Kree was smack dab in the middle of the no-Magic zone and out of his movement reach, and I don't think Far Step was long enough to get him to Lucien, and he only had 5ft of movement left after it. And even if he could have gotten to Lucien, it's been firmly established that ANYONE, especially someone somewhat magic dependent like Fjord, charging into melee with Lucien without reliable support set up is suicide. Also, he may not have realized that the expendables were down and out and thought they were just prone, I which case he didn't want them getting up.
@@herosmith5662 Far Step gave him a 60 foot reach, which he would know from placing the intuit charges is between half and two-thirds the length of the room, so with movement he could have easily made it to Lucien. And yes, if Lucien went next he'd be in trouble, but he has an entire round before that happens for everyone else to get involved. He'd have not only been fine, but he could have been in place to make that counterspell (or if the cone that followed him again, to open up a path for someone else). Same with throwing the arcane gate to the other side of the room: yes, Lucien might dispel it with the cone, but that takes up his time and legendary actions to do, leaving him and ask the rest of the TTs exposed for that turn. And even if he still chickened out from going after Lucien, he Far Stepped right next to Cree, who as Matt said was well bloodied themself. Magic might not have been possible against them, but his sword would have been fine. (Has it taken him this long to figure out "on the ground and not moving" is Matt's coded way of saying unconscious? He should have known the other three weren't threats, especially as long as they were inside the cone and couldn't be healed.)
Matt explicitly said that Cree "while bloodied, seemed to have recovered much of it", nothing Fjord could have done would have prevented Cree from Dimension Door-ing.
@@Fierying Whatever few spell slots were used against the rangers would definitely be a small boon in the fight ahead, that's true. But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have taken much for the TTs to kill off or incapacitate the rangers. As for keeping the rangers alive...well, if the M9 succeed, then they're alive if nothing else. Alternately, I can't help but think they could have been used to follow the TTs through the tunnel and do something to dislodge the precarious rock pile opposite the rope across the chasm. Say, get a fluffernutter to a ranger, who tracks the TTs to the crawlspace to the rope, then once they start their descent he lobs the explosive down the crawlspace as much as he can and books it, so the explosion knocks the rocks onto the TTs, carrying them down past the Symbol into range of the Intuit Charges. Basically the plan as performed, but with added physical damage from having a rock slide land on you and no saving throw to prevent the Symbol causing them to fall off the rope.
Sorry I just really don't get it.... How is throwing people who are dead within 12 seconds (at best) at the Tomb Takers a "hard but necessary call"? I genuinely don't understand. They were 5 or 6 hours into a long rest. No hope of hitting 8. I feel like I'm going crazy. I thought Sam making fun of Fjord for his cold decision in the rest of the episode was funny because it was so obviously a dumb move that did literally nothing. It really didn't even have a chance to do something. What is happening????
the point of it and why it was the 'hard but necessary' is the idea that yes, the Tomb Takers would destroy the squad. but the idea was them even BEING there might slow the Takers down. make them more cautious. make them check for traps, other squads. if you didn't knwo the place you were going was being watched, and assumed it wasn't, and then you got jumped by an obvious patrol group or at the very least one waiting in ambush, woudl you keep going at a quick pace? or woudl you start looking through the snow to traps. trip wires, mines, glyphs...would you slow down and be wary about if anyone else is coming. we're they checking in somewhere and would them being overdue get someone else stronger or a large force sent to you? how far away might that be? and it's not like Cree could just scry around for it. so fjord's decision was basically send like 12 people to die, just for the CHANCE that it might buy them the extra hour or two to get a full rest while the Tomb Takers (hopefully) slowed down and moving toward the enterance like they were suddenly in a minefield.
"Lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice" seems like an applicable quote here
Travis plays out this quote very well
"Nice" also doesn't seem applicable when making unnecessary life and death decisions for people you'd already told to save themselves and to not engage.
@@abydosianchulac2 did anybody get , that they were soliders ? It was their job , no matter of odds, it was their duty
@@radekhomola7658 It was their duty to follow orders; it's their commander's duty to not make them sacrifice themselves unnecessarily.
abydosianchulac2 your presuming it’s unnecessary it could very well be the reason they failed their saves or were weakened enough to kill, it was their lives for the GREATER GOOD not just some random mission
Liam aged 20 years when he heard "yes"
All of their reactions were gold, was such an awesome moment
I chose to listen to this episode...I now regret it
Travis’ explanation of the moment on Talks Machina as well put together. I recommend you give it a listen if you haven’t dear reader.
I love when Fjord gets serious and makes those tough decisions
It gets me all flustered, not gonna lie 😳
Honestly there's a lot to learn from Fjord/Travis as a roleplayer. I think him acting goofy and silly as Fjord makes the scenes where he gets serious WAYYYY more impactful.
at first I hated his decision, to just sacrifice those rangers BUT in hindsight, they were stretched SOO thin and needed that full rest to face Lucian. meaning now Lucian is ahead and setting up and they have almost no resources/spellslots which coupled with the fact that Travis feels the weight of the sacrifices is understandable why he feels it's a failure. their planning amounted to three less "expendables" and they lost the time advantage they had to stop things before Lucian unleashes ... whatever his plans are.
Basically they didn't impact endgame and they either face Lucian with no resources or let him bolster up his defenses and maybe succeed at his plan before they arrive = big picture fail
@@AMadMage that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about that
Fjord Tough
I love the look on Talisen’s face when Travis made that decision. You could see he gets it. Percy probably would have made the same call
Percy WOULD definitely make the same call.
Point of note: this is the second time we've seen Lucien's persona crack. First it was Jester with the cards, but now we've seen Lucien look out of control of the situation. Before the Nein attacked, he was cursing to himself, and clearly surprised. It will be tough to get to him, but for the first time, the Nein are the one's controlling the tempo, not Lucien.
Plus the time Beau pissed him off to the point of snapping at her
The problem with running a game is most people "act to then react". There's a lot of reaction to npc offense.
This feels inherently different. This is predatory, almost. The ideal situation was to have enough (traps) set up to put massive pressure on lucien and dwindle his resources. The scouts, the environment, the charges and traps, then to have more set up, eventually leaving maybe Lucien and one or two.
To that end, they achieved a good amount. But you can tell by the mood, Travis and Fjord wanted bigger results. I suppose knowing they can't really rest and recover without giving Lucien that same opportunity puts this really into an attrition war.
I should hope the weight of PCs is heavier.
This is why Fjord's choice was the correct one to make no matter what the outcome of the fight itself is. Even if the rangers got completely slaughtered, the fact that they were there at all would likely force the Tomb Takers to second guess themselves, maybe slow down, and put them on edge. Remember, no one was supposed to know about this entrance at all, let alone finding it guarded. This, combined with the work the M9 did to set up their traps and plan their ambush, means the M9 have the advantage in a fight with the Tomb Takers for the first time. That has got to be jarring for Lucien who up until now has been the one dictating the flow.
We don't know the extent of the damage the fight with the rangers caused, but even if no health was dropped and the Tomb Takers were put on edge it makes the choice worth it.
@@Om3n2007 i get why Travis and Ford are disappointed. But really this went as well as it could of. Even if they hadn't taken any short rests they'd still be an hour short of a long rest. It's unfortunate that they weren't able to take out Cree but unless that one shot that hit lucien would've made the difference if aimed at Cree instead, idk what they could have really done differently given the knowledge they had of the situation. They even got the fight with the salamanders out the way, which given the dimension door they might have had to deal with when pursuing otherwise. Their chances of winning have gone up significantly imo.
According to RAW, they haven't interrupted their long rest long enough to negate it. They could and at this point should just take another couple hours to be fully recharged. Lucien admitted his plans were fucked now and he's only operating at 40% strength
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Matt denied them their long rest and advanced lucien's progress by 90% because screw the rules
If there were ever a moment that really exemplified where the leadership falls in The M9, it's this one. No one else in the party would have been able to make that decision in either direction. Any other character would have woken up another and tried to deliberate over it, and whatever decision they did make wouldn't have mattered at that point. Fjord made that call w/o any hesitation.
Edit: Yikes someone's salty down here
He is the Captain for a reason. And not just because of that beautiful beard
Definitely a leadership move. I’ve seen some comments about being sad about losing Dagan. Maybe so, but I don’t think so. Because (1) he’s always said he wasn’t paid enough to fight, (2) he would have filled the Rangers in on Lucien’s group so they would have known adding him wouldn’t change anything, (3) the Rangers would know that he might be able to provide intel to M9 if they should return. Rangers might be the reason Cree was bloody. Anyway, we’ll see.
lol fjord is not a leader, he doesn't ever 'lead' anyone and he only uses his high charisma once in a blue moon. his call to have them engage here was cool cinematicly but he legit went against what everyone wanted/would've wanted. They all already told the rangers before not to engage the TT before they even went inside
@@disappotato there characters should have been awake for the decision if they wanted to argue. Fjord was asked and made the decision, doesn't really matter IF something else COULD have happened.
You're so right, spot on. 💪
Sometimes I find almost annoying how players must deliberate on everything in D&D, Travis was a breath of fresh air 🤩
I would pay all the money to see Dani Carr's reaction to Fjord giving that order.
execute order 66
Just, ALL the money. Right with you. We need a Dani cam for CR xD
Fjord giving the order is a BALLER move, loved it! Travis/Fjord is such a level head in these kind of situations and it's great to see a player act confidently and decisively. He did it too against Gelidon and I loved him from that too
Being frozen when a decision needs to be made is a major problem in any combat situation. The fact he can overcome it and step up makes him the leader the 9 need.
@@jackmyers8687 yeah it's the worst getting caught in two minds, especially when you're worried one of the options isn't what anyone else wants. the fact Travis can cut through all that and make a call, every team needs a player/character like that!
@@ArchreitTheScuttler The way they all shake there heads and Sam calling him a "snake bas***d" made it hard but he still went through with it. Like the sword/lava moment. Who else would have the guts to make such a choice?
Maybe he should just pull a Jester next time. Throw cupcakes at them!
@@jackmyers8687 cupcakes would certainly calm me down from wanting to summon a world-devouring city of screaming souls! also yeah it must be hard to see your friends react that way to your big call, but as with Gelidon, and also as with Caleb and the Beacon, sometimes you do just have to trust your gut. also i know they were all worried that the rangers attacking would give them away (which i think was the big concern), but i'd like to think it took even just ONE spell or use of a feat or ability from some of them, just taking something has to be worth it
Travis Willingham: CEO of Critical Role
Fjord: CEO of The Mighty Nein
Seeing Travis get that hardcore this episode was…kinda hot
I agree 😳
As a straight guy, I kinda agree.
oh Oskar..
Travis doing literally anything is kinda hot
Hands off he’s Laura’s!
Kudos to Matt for weaving a situation were “Yes” actually had such emotional weight. If it were random rangers, who cares? But it was Dagon! And Lucian has been established as a credible enemy requiring any possible advantage. Well done.
I hope he's ok.
He's dead probably, also very interesting roleplay wise.
Dagen Underthorn... not mehrunes dagon
Oh noo!! I forgot about Dagon!!!! 😭
I care for random rangers. Not cool to see them wasted like this, wrong call, but he had no time to think clearly.
Fjord knows that when the chips are down and everything is on the line, you have to make the hard calls. Fjord's decision was a coldly pragmatic one, but one that was done with the best of intentions for the people he considers his family.. If the scout troop reported back, they would know that it wasn't Lucien and Co. If they didn't report back, then it was them for certain, and they were coming. It bought the Mighty Nein a little more time, and may have made the difference.
I'm not saying it's right, because it's not. But I understand why he did it.
Also, Otis' pronouns are now was/were.
Excellent point. But sometimes you got to sacrifice pawns to take out the king.
i think it was right ,they were soliders . It was their job , no matter of odds it was their duty
I hope Dagon is alive
@@jackmyers8687 i have to imagine dagon stayed hidden if he could, he wasn't getting paid to take the tombtakers on
Travis came into this dungeon knowing this may be the last time he played Fjord. It was win with some casualties, or all is lost. I know it seems cold but he made the best decision to try and make up for the fact that they had already burned spells and health getting to where they were. If they faced a totally fresh Tomb Takers, the other three might have stayed alive. Hopefully when they continue this arc on Thursday they also focus down on Kree. Always kill the cleric first, especially the one who resurrected Lucien in the first place. Also if they make it out of here some of those rangers might be consecrated and could resurrect, at best they will resurrect Dagon if he didn't make it out of there.
I love Travis taking the hardest stance so “No matter what, we are fucking saving the world, we’ll figure everything else out later”
Also bye Dagan :(((((
Eh, these are rangers, I highly doubt that the Tomb Takers could have killed them all, including Dagen. These are pretty highly trained soldiers who know they're outmatched (at least Dagen knows they are), I doubt that the rangers wouldn't have pulled away once things started turning against them.
@@thethirdsicily4802 I don't know, maybe a couple of them got away but they're still soldiers. Soldiers are supposed to follow orders
@@mr.bluesky4130 True, but even then morale is a fickle thing
Dagen lives!!!!
@@longvu510 this is the best kind of spoiler. But still a spoiler. Save it for after the episode drops on youtube ;)
The right decision isn't always the 'good' one. Whatever Fjord's motivations, his decision was right - if only because it weakened the Tomb Takers. And let's not forget that this is a world ending type arc, so...Good job Fjord.
i love that literally no one reacted to sam’s little ‘shakin’ my way’ and ‘quakin’ my way’ 😂
I think he also says “snakin my way” in a response to fjords decision
Fjord's decision regarding the ranger is such a thematically strong move.
It's what a true Captain/Commander would do.
Specially since what he did to the rangers is nothing he's not prepared to do himself or to his own friends.
If the success of an enemy potentially means the end of everything,
there's no point trying to save a few if their sacrifice has 1% chance to help stop that enemy.
that's exactly what I said too.
Ahhh the battle paranoia of every DnD player... never trust your dm to create an easy encounter or just give away a treasure
DMs really be sneaky like that
I feel like every single person watching the livestream’s skin slowly faded in color as Matt made those damn rolls for the Tomb Takers
"You know when you're writing an essay and you forget how to spell a word, so you write it in bad cursive so they think you know how to spell the word?"
Never have I related to something *so much*
What an episode for Travis to wear a shirt with the word “slaughter” on it. Ugh such good stuff...
I love Travis so fucking much. My favorite D&D player, with Sam close behind.
It's amazing how they are two of the ones with the least D&D experience, but they just do an amazing role both in the roleplay aspect, as well as in the mechanical aspect. I love those two badasses.
When I watched this, and Travis/Fjord made that call...I honestly felt my entire opinion of Fjord Change. That's why I love this show. It's a d&d game, but it throws me around emotionally just like the Sopranos and Breaking Bad. It's that powerful.
Change for better or worse is now the question haha
This was the most stressful episode to watch I can remember. Lots of other tense moments like Bazzoxan and the crone, but just watching spellcasters dwindle down their resources (and hit dice while still being below max) had me pretty much watching Matt for a sneaky "the TT are here" roll the entire time.
fucking AWESOME choice by travis and for fjord emotionally i means so much, he's had an amazing journey when it comes to taking charge and making the hard choices as it becomes do or die even if they aren't necessarily the morally right thing to do. i hope trav keeps his grit in the next ep, i know he took the ending of last session hard.
Travis became a real chess man or strategic captain with his decision to sacrifice the Rangers. it was the only logical choice. also the battle was a tactical master stroke, like Marisha said at the end. it was to try and whittle them down. I honestly didn't see it going that well.
I really like the interactions at 13:33. Very cool to see Travis compliment both Matt and Sam even after his plan didn’t work. He really is such a good team player.
Oh my gods, I don't what possessed me, but at some point near the end, I was just screaming "DIVINE INTERVENTION!" at the screen like the bloody, devil, my housemate walked into my room, the poor girl looked visibly disturbed by whatever the hell she heard from her point, even I was stunned by my own volume
We all do it. I was screaming "For God sake! Set the trap and move on!"
YES!
I was hoping for a "Devine Intervention" as well...!
hopefully it won't come to that but maybe they kept it as a last resort if Tomb Takers mange to execute their plan.
Yep, this is it. This is my favorite moment in the entirety of Fjord's character arc. Everything thing has lead to him being the defacto leader of the M9 and knowing that he has to make difficult decisions to ensure that they succeed. He did this knowing that it gave them the best chance of success, and the entire world could hinge on it. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made.
This was the best.
I for one respect Fjord's choice. The loss of the few to save the many.
It saved nothing here, it made no difference at all. I call it a waste.
@@dirkboch128 and you'd be wrong.
@@dirkboch128 Lucien is scared of M9, and they took out the majority of Tomb Takers, not a total waste.
I agree with fjord’s decision but not the reason for it. I feel like the undead giants’ bodies would have given them away if there hadn’t been anybody else to shift the blame to. The rangers attacking may have made Lucien think they killed them.
Underrated comment, never even thought of that, perhaps that order was far more important than I first thought.
THis is what makes D&D so special, we are having a moral dilemma, and dealing with the impact of choices made, over some figments om imagination. But it is impactful.
It does not matter whether it was the right call (hell even Travis regrets it), what matters is that a call was made. Fjord has been very vocal about his priorities on this mission and they boil down to: Save the many. The rangers, especially Dagen, knew the risk in facing the Tomb Takers - they had likely already accepted their fates be it death or damaged. The decision Fjord made was cold, uninformed and pragmatic, this is serious, fate of all life shit - and yet the decision makes sense with Fjord's character, he is very aware that what comes around the next corner could very well be the end. He is prepared to lay down his life in order to protect what he cares about - and he expects anyone else involved in the mission to be the same.
Sure he might be a goof and prone to fear but in the moments before a fight, when a tough decision has to be made, he does not falter, he does what he thinks is right in the moment. (Expertly displayed in the return of Gelidon - "Analysis Paralysis" as he said)
Quick note since I see people saying "The rangers alerted the TT that it was a trap" - dudes chill out, they are rangers that are under orders to patrol the Aeor site and its surroundings. From the perspective of the Tomb Takers this could have been a patrol that just so happened to cross their path. This in no way alerts them to the presence of the Nein.
Do I agree with the decision to essentially march people to their graves? No, but I understand it. (I also believe Caleb and possibly even Veth would have made a similar call had they been there.)
Do I think it was the right call? I have no idea, it's a very hard choice to make, one I know I couldn't make - at least not in as collected a manner as Fjord.
I get why people are so hung up on this and why it would frustrate them, but I see this as an amazing character moment for Fjord and a demonstration of the things at stake in the present moment.
Also, Im not certain on the distance from the entrance to the first Intuit charge but the Rangers could have been in the 300ft radius of those things anyway (This is speculation, I have absolutely no clue and cant remember if Matt gave a detailed length from the drop tunnel with the rope to the entrance) - assuming this is a possibility I can see Fjord making the call as an "If they are caught running the TT will know something's up and if they hide they might get hit anyway." - though again, speculation here.
At the end of the day, I think we all know this wasnt really in hopes of getting the long rest - it was hours away and they all know how strong Lucien and his crew are - Travis essentially called in for the rangers to damage the crew as best they could because as Matt said after Heroes Feast "How many times has it come down to one or two hit points?" - we dont know how much damage was dealt by the Rangers, the fall or the charges - it is entirely possible that the efforts of the rangers was what tipped the scales.
TL;DR: Man made choice with the greater good in mind and asked THE MILITARY to do the thing they are paid to do in what can only be described as a very morally grey action considering the known strength of the approaching force.
7:00 there are indeed videos like that and they are more suspenseful than you’d think!
Sam always vocalizes what I’m thinking ‘you’re a bastard!...” and then “snakin’ my way” 😆
If you re-watch Travis as he says 'yes', he isn't looking at anyone around him, he is looking at the camera. He is looking at you.
In regards to Fjord's decision about the rangers, I think a lot of people are forgetting that *engaging* does not mean getting into melee. They are *rangers*; they specialize in ranged attacks, which they all would most likely use. There is no way to know if they died, or if they ran as soon as they realized what they were up against. Hell, Dagen has seen the TT fight before, he could have informed the ranger team to just levy one or two rounds of damage, then peace the fuck out. Sending Stones can only be used once a day, so there is a very reasonable explanation as to why there wasn't a second message confirming the success of the ambush. From Fjord's perspective, the benefits of engaging outweighed the potential (not guarantee, potential) of the rangers and Dagen not surviving the fight. If the damage had been enough that the TT would have taken a short rest to heal, it would by the M9 time to finish their long rest. If it wasn't, which seems to be the case, they would force their only cleric, Cree, to use up spell slots to heal, which would have weakened the TT magic users abilities and evened out the playing field. The damage that the rangers dealt could have been the reason 3 out of 5 of the TT didn't survive the M9 ambush.
Not to mention these are pretty well trained rangers, supported by Dagen who knows what the TTs can do. Rather than engaging and trying to kill the tomb takers, which would be a waste of the rangers, its highly likely that they used some other tactics to at least have an effect.
I'm just really peeved that he went against practically the whole parties wishes, they didn't want the rangers to engage even before they went into the ruins
@@disappotato I can understand that. Watching it initially, I felt that way, too. But aside from my gut emotional reaction, I wasn’t as surprised as some seem to have been about this decision. It tracks with how Fjord’s been as a character. He did the same thing to kick off the Gelidon fight; everyone wanted to try and hide, but he thought/realized that she would still be able to smell them even if they were all hiding, and made the decision that it would be better to separate and fight than potentially be taken out all in one shot by clustering together.
@@disappotato Oh yeah that is true, but imo it's completely understandable why he did that, this is a situation where the blood price is, frankly at an all time low, any opportunity to slow down or hurt the TTs in any way is one that needs to be taken.
@@disappotato in the end if the tt used even one or two spells its worth it
Travis usually being so goofy and boisterous makes moments like that yes hit so much more. There was no hesitation when he gave the answer, just full confidence in it. He's so incredible at those moments in this Campaign. I was a bit worried in the early sessions, but seeing how Fjord, and I think Travis both, have grown in this campaign...if any many could get me flustered, Travis is definitely especially high if not top of that list, especially in those moments.
Also separately, that use of silence, before and after, by Matt and Travis both, to really drive home intentional or not, the weight of the "Yes", is masterful. That's straight to them being veteran voice actors I feel like. Two people, so well versed in the use sound, both in application, and lack thereof, so enthralling.
I love these recaps!!! I watch them Thursday morning before the next show, thank you!!!
So yeah I think this shows Fjord is very much now the leader of the Nein beyond a doubt...the sign of a leader is one who will make the hard calls and live with the consequences.
And who is willing to shoulder the burden alone. ;)
this was a rollercoaster of an episode
Looking at it in hindsight now, if Beau ran up to Cree and went into melee with her, Cree could've been stuck with Beau's Sentinel. Also, Lucien's anti-magic cone would either have to turn off for them to dimension door or Cree's spells wouldn't haven't worked.
Hindsight is always 20/20
Sentinel doesnt work on forced movement. If it were cree who beau hit as she tried to get to lucien, then maybe, but since its forced movement that doesnt trigger attacks of opportunity
Sorry, I should’ve been clear in the order of events. 1st, Beau throws arc field generator and then runs up in melee range with Cree. 2nd, Lucien’s turn where he changed the direction the cone was pointing at and his movement back. 3rd, Fjord using Far step to kill Zoran. 4th, Lucien uses his 2 legendary actions to shift his focus to Fjord. 5th, Cree tries to use her movement to get to Lucien to use Dimension Door, but Beau keeps Cree in place with sentinel.
Basically, the first part of what you said @Danny Bagley is what I meant to say.
They were always going to get away...Matt designed the encounter that way.
@@TeslaOsiris they had one round to stop it, matt clearly stated that at beginning of the encounter.
Travis t-shirt perfectly encapsuled Fjord in this episode.
Although I love the decision Fjord made as a character I think people are overestimating how much that actually did overall. Of course unless Matt spills the details it’s all speculation. But honestly I don’t think those rangers did much.
Physically, you are probably right. The likelihood they did much damage is minimal. But they would burn a couple spellslots, and daily abilities, possibly some hit die.
They also disrupt and distract the plans and though process of the enemy.
"I was doing my best Sam Riegel..." I guess Travis referring to Scanlan :d
That was a Fjord Tough decision
Jesus, Talliesin looks like he relived some shit hearing that Yes.
Oh Captain, My Captain!
I think fjord Made The right decision and I agree with him
It was a tjough choice, but the right one
Please let Dagon be ok....
@@jackmyers8687 I don't know he might be fjucked
@@hiimdavis4758 I don't know, Dagen has fjaced some really tough fjoes befjore.
@@scarletbanana6429 yea hopefully he fjled or hid cause he a badass
Fjord: No way out of this fight my friend.
Lucien, literally right after: *Finds a way out*
yasha keeping it real asking cad to scout for snacks
Travis your gamer is showing
Fjord definitely earned some renegade points that day.
why do i kind of wished the healed Otis so they KNEW it was coming... missed opportunity
By Fjord’s standard of getting M9 the rest they needed by delaying TT, it was a a gamble that failed. As with many command decisions, there won’t be a binary good/bad decision. If his leads to the death of his allies without stopping Lucien or getting them their rest then Fjord will struggle with it. Even if successful he will struggle. My guess is he’ll see their lives as “wasted” if they did die.
Damn. Wow Fjord. Damn
THIS EPISODE WAS SOOOOO HYPE!!!!
I feckin loved this episode. The darker turns were so good
I 1000% agree with Fjord’s decision. This is the fate of a continent and possibly the world on the line. M9 are the LAST defensive stand for it, Lucien and the takers are powerful and probably fully rested. The M9 are powerful, but not fully rested. The call makes sense for 2 reasons, buy them more time and cause damage (even minimal) and use up spell slots and possible even a legendary resistance if you’re lucky.
Travis mentions feeling super guilty about the decision in Talks but I still think this was the right call. Even if Dagon dies it give the M9 a better chance at winning AND THUS surviving.
I see where Fjord was coming from, but I think it was shortsighted, they were on hour 5 of a rest, I know he wanted to slow down Lucien but I don't think the scout troop would have done enough to stop them for 2-3 hours to let the party finish the rest.
The only thing that could have done that is if the Tombtakers had taken a short rest after their fight...
Even still, this could use a lot of spells and do either some damage or waste some time...
What if the rangers attacking the takers cancelled their plans of resting before entry?
coming to point out Liam’s EXU shirt!
I would have done the exact same thing. Even if the rangers can't slow the Tomb Takers down, knowing the entrance is watched might make them slow down, and the party needs rest. Because we saw what happened last time they tried fighting the Tomb Takers before resting up.
Love Travis in strategy mode.
I love Yashas pigeon superstition
Even Henry made a cameo lol.
That elder scrolls skyrim music in the background made my ears perk up lol
Damn, hard core.
I would have supported Travis'/Fjord's call with the rangers etc. If it would have made much of a difference. There was no way the rangers were gonna buy enough time for a full rest to begin with. Plus it was mostly just the intuit charges that F'ed the tomb takers up. So feels that the rangers just got recked for no real reason. Worst case scenario could have been that the tomb takers would have become more alert and noticed the charges somehow.
I personally thought what he did was absolutely brilliant, brutal but it made the most sense and was the moment he stepped up as the Leader. It's Matt I'm unhappy with, he made the sacrifice mean nothing and made Fjord look like an idiot by having the Tomb Takers still interrupt their rest, had I been ruling it I'd have made the Tomb Takers be much more cautious and have them arrive just after everyone finished their long rest, I get that Matt didn't want another Avantika or Iron Shepherds happening again but still, you've got to reward that level of roleplay
Stone Cold fjord Aujstin
Sorry I’ll see myself out.
Fjord 'Ice Man' Stone, Warlock-Paladin of the WildMother
ScryTube is cannon
On the knife’s edge
damn i just realized dagon was party of that scout troupe D'=
It's tough being the face of the party... Making the tough cslls
could you imagine if they left another trap ahead, just incase?
It was a tough decision and ultimately inconsequential but I appreciate Fjord's choice
Anyone else craving a Caleb/ Esik love story?
Snakin' my way..
So, I get why he made the decision but what I'm confused about is how it was NEVER talked about by ANYONE. It was just Fjord and Essek when he made the call, everyone else was asleep. But when Dagon called Essek and Essek said there were some casualties it seemed like the party was expecting it. I thought they were all going to get on Fjord's case because there shouldn't have been any casualties but they all just let it go? I don't really understand it
Man out of anyone that survived the trap. Cree was the worst one.
Alex Orjuela And high Wisdom so she probably dodged the fall damage from the Symbol.
@Alex Orjuela I remember matt saying she was bloodied or something
Oh my god dagen
fjords decission is quite "good" in the sense that if the rangers actually slow down the tts for 3 more hours the nein basically win, i didnt work, but fjord didnt knew that. even a 1% chance of a long rest is worth trying when the fate of the world is at stake. the nein are also staking their lives on this and without any compensation, none of them are under any obligation to help against this, yet here they are.
I Love your Videos❤️ but also Matt's Evil face 👿 also SadowGast 👨❤️👨
Shadowgast till the day I dieee
@@NicoNeilson Of course ❤️
I am curious as to whether it would be possible for Fjord to attack Kree instead? I think she was in the anti-magic cone?
she was still hanging on to the rope wasn't she? and No i don't think any of the tomb takers were so he could've finished off kree ensuring lucian couldn't get away.
@Pete W It would have depended on whether he could have gotten to her without being in the cone. If he's in the cone, The Star Razor is just a sword.
And speaking of the Anti-Magic Cone, I just realized, now that we know how she did it... I don't think Cree could have actually used Dimension Door the way she did. She didn't use the Spell: Dimension Door. She used a cloak that invokes it on anything wrapped within. To Dimension Door with Lucien, she would need to wrap Lucien in the Cloak. Which would mean a part of the cloak would pass through the Anti-Magic Cone. Wouldn't that alone prevent the Cloak from activating? In order for Cree to have used the Cloak to Dimension Door with Lucien, Lucien would have had to turn the Anti-Magic Cone off which means Fjord should have had the opportunity to Counterpell. Wow... I think Matt grossly mis-played that!
@@ForeverDegenerate You raised a good question with the cloak. But it could be interpret as Fjord, at that moment, didn't know that Lucien have to turn off the anti-magic cone for the cloak to work. So he didn't try to counterspell.
@@Blue_Lunacy Irrelevant. With the Magic Field Device that Allura gave them that Beau activated off the bat, he could physically see the Cone. If Lucien had turned it off, he would be able to physically see that there is no Cone. Travis didn't even attempt the Counterspell because the Cone was never shut off. It might have just been an oversight on Matt's part (allowing the Cloak to work, I mean). What's done is done.
Of course, that raises another relevant question. If Cree had to resort to using her Cloak to Dimension Door instead of just casting it, how messed up were the Tomb Takers really? I mean, does that mean Cree had no high level spells left? With what we now know, Cree was a bloody mess AND she resorted to using the Cloak. Given that Cree was a Cleric, I find it hard to believe that she didn't have Dimension Door in her arsenal. Given our current information, I have to wonder if the Tomb Takers were WAY worse off than the majority of people assumed? If that's the case, then maybe the Ranger Ambush actually had a greater impact that any of us realized?
@@ForeverDegenerate You're probably right. Perhaps it will be clarified in the post campaign Talks Machina. It should be interesting.
Tomb Takers must took some damage. But wouldn't Cree heal them along the way before the trap? Or they weren't as caution as they should have been and venture in deep, hoping to find a "safe" location before have Cree heal the party.
Guys essek said fuck
I just realized something; if those rangers were Kryn, then they didn't even technically "die," right? Although, I'm still muddy on the specifics of how the beacons work.
No, that is a rare gift no given to random soldiers unfortunatly.
@@dirkboch128 I see.
@@crypto66 not to mention, they have to be within a certain distance of the beacon if they die. There may be one in Aeor but that's a crap shoot and if no one finds it, their soul is kinda screwed and left in the Dodecahedron until someone has a baby near that area.
I just hope Dagon survived
That “Yes.” is going to be a great campaign wrap up question
did anyone else got some "iron lady" vibes?
Is dagon dead then?
*Spoiler*
Seriously, spoiler.
As I can’t find any clips that address it, bear in mind that the scouting party _mostly_ survived, and even let the party know before making it back to the outpost. Feel like that’s worth saying, because while that moment gets Fjord a lot of points, the ‘distraction’ party also (mostly) lived through the event.
I'm not sure why but this story arc had been annoying as hell to me. It really feels like Matt has had to fudge so many dice rolls to keep the story going. The example here to me is Kree being the only one that survived like 200 points of damage and then having a high enough initiative to dimension door before they can get into position to counterspell.
Am I the only one that totally disagrees with what fjord did? I mean how much time did the lives of those rangers buy them... that combat wouldve lasted *maybe* 30 seconds (honestly they probably wouldnt have lasted 2 full rounds against the tomb takers). They have a cleric so the damage sustained wouldnt have been substantial. As fjord said, they’d be more on guard “take more time”... isnt that EXACTLY what they were trying to avoid (at least the on guard part)? That move makes their trap less likely to work, they are expecting something at this point. Especially since these rangers are guarding LUCIAN’S SECRET ENTRANCE. Luckily the trap still went through but its not like fjords decision helped in that matter, matt was rolling so many dice idk if he had the tomb takers making investigation checks or not and I just missed it but if they didnt i think matt may not have played that in the most sensible way for lucian and just let their trap work cause it was cool and they planned it out a bunch. That move wouldn’t get them the long rest anyways and i think fjord/travis fully knows that. So the pros from what i can see: 10 more minutes of sleep for his friends, minimal damage/their cleric having slightly fewer spell slots. The cons: leading Dagen and the no name rangers to the slaughter, lucian is even more on guard. I mean matt even essentially tells travis “if they are who you say, the rangers arent making a dent”
I mean honestly i think it was really curel AND stupid cause the overall advantage gained is barely anything (and one could argue youre actually at a disadvantage because lucian is more prepared for a fight beyond the creatures that lie within the ruins of aeor), and the loss is the lives of an entire troop and (dont know if matt played it like this but logically i think he should of) the groups trap having a lower success rate. I mean ultimately it comes down to morals i suppose, how important are the lives of some no names (plus dagen) if they can give you a 5% advantage in the fight to come.
I will applaud travis however for doing exactly what fjord wouldve done there, even though i totally disagree with his move (and i think the entire cast also disagreed based on their reactions) it makes things entertaining and im curious what the party will say (if they dont tpk) when they go up and find dagen’s and the rangers’ dead bodies everywhere. Great RP from both travis and matt but rp aside i really think it was not only a cruel decision, it also barely aids them at all. Definitely gonna have to watch the talks machina on this episode and i hope they have travis on to explain exactly what was going through his head on that decision. But all in all thats just my opinion and if you disagree and think im understating the advantage they get from sacrificing those rangers, let me know if i missed something in my considerations, id love to hear some other people’s opinions on this.
Apologies to anyone who has read my novel, just was reading the comments and seeing nothing but praise/understanding for fjords actions so i wanted to explore the other side of the spectrum cause (if it wasnt obvious) i think it was a bad choice. Im in no way trying to start an argument, i enjoy conversation with people who have opposing views from mine, it makes things interesting.
They did damage, forced them to expend energy. Any tiny advantage might be enough to tip the balance
@@zedbee2736 as both matt and travis stated damage wasnt the main reason, to reiterate one of esseks quotes hes says “If they are who you say, they arent making a *dent*” and Fjord confirms that notion, i mean cree is a cleric, she probably couldve used her first level spell slots and maybe one or two seconds depending on how injured they actually were topping off the tomb takers. Honestly i dont even know what the longest combat theyve been in was, but i know for sure those combats almost never (feel free to cite a time im unknowing of) go more than 10 rounds. Critical Role Wiki has cree pegged as a level 15 or higher (due to her seeming use of the earthquake spell at the end of the latest episode) cree would still theoretically have all her 3rd, 4ths, 5ths, 6th, and 7th level spells. My point obviously being that those first and second levels arent really used in combat anymore unless you have absolutely nothing left and she most likely has at least has 10 rounds of spells she could cast (10 is gotten from adding all her “remaining” spell slots together) and thats not accounting for any other magical items she has and we should reasonably assume she has something besides the dimension door cloak. Fjord told essek that he wanted lucian to be more cautious, take more time. That line of thought is seriously naive to everything theyve seen from lucian, lucian has worked his people to the bone to gain ground, i dont see him slowing down significantly for any reason. But he may be more cautious/on guard, and that’s exactly the opposite of what you would want someone to be if you’re luring them into a trap. All of this is a long winded way of saying, that advantage seems like nothing when you really think about it, and id argue it puts them at a disadvantage because lucian is even more on guard for an ambush/trap.
(And hindsight is always 2020 but i mean we know the trap took out three of the tomb takers, and fjords move didnt help with that it potentially hindered it, but the mighty nein can EASILY take on cree and lucian by themselves, lucian knows this and thats why he ran.)
I don’t believe Fjord made the correct decision here which is ok because I think that’s what makes these characters so compelling. Fjords not perfect, and his response certainly didn’t take away any chills I got from watching it. I do want to give my point of view though because it logically doesn’t make much sense. Fjord’s goal is to give everyone more time to rest, which I understand. However, the amount of time it would’ve taken to reach the MN from the entrance did not seem like three hours. Perhaps if the trap was further into the ruins it would’ve made more sense. You could argue that he did it to gain some sort of advantage like wasted spell slots and reduced hit points, but that wasn’t his reasoning. He sent those men to fight knowing full well they didn’t stand a chance, so the MN could get rest. That goes without saying why would you want the enemy to be aware of your presence? Why would you want them to be more cautious? IMO, they were just lucky that the TT did not discover the trap and were careless enough to send 4 members down the rope at the same time. It’s because of their carelessness that I believe the outcome would’ve been the same whether or not the rangers engaged. No long rest and 3 dead tomb takers. However, now Fjord has to reconcile with the fact that he sent those men to die for nothing. Although I feel it wasn’t the correct choice, we now get to see how the consequence of fjords actions affect him which make the character more interesting.
Or maybe the Kryn Rangers' Ambush is the entire reason The Tomb Takers were so careless entering Aeor. We don't know.
@@ForeverDegenerate Certainly possible, but imo it would be more probable that you’d be on your guard when encountering an ambush at what was believed to be a secret entrance if I recall. Even more so after seeing the two dead giants the mighty nein offed when entering the ruins (unless they removed them somehow because I can’t remember). Regardless, being careless will get you killed and that’s what we saw, so it just adds more to the story telling. I guess I just expected more from the tomb takers.
@@christophercantu2005 There were three Frost Giants, I think. And, if I recall, they re-buried them under snow. Also, they were Undead Frost Giants. So, unless Lucien was the one to re-animate them in the first place, dead Frost Giants shouldn't really set off any alarms in his head.
As far as being on guard after an ambush, I would agree if they were ambushed INSIDE the entrance. But the Rangers engaged them OUTSIDE the entrance. If I had to guess (and this IS just a guess), I would say the fact that the ambush was outside inside may have made all the difference. Being ambushed outside the entrance, my mind immediately goes to, "They're trying to stop us from entering Aeor." But if the ambush took place INSIDE the entrance, my mind immediately goes to, "Ok what are they trying to protect or stop us from getting to that's already in here?" Ambush Location denotes connotation, I guess is what I'm saying. And since they attacked outside, maybe Lucien felt they were trying to prevent the Tomb Takers from entering as opposed to protecting something already within.
Lastly, The Mighty Nein, for once, did a fantastic job covering their tracks and not leaving anything that would tip Lucien off to the fact that they were there. I'm sure Matt took all that into account and rewarded the M9 for all of their careful planning and preparations.
I hope the ranger commander refused the suicide order and there's a whole Stanley Kubrick DMed Paths of Glory mini campaign in Xhorhas.
Sam's great and all....I just wish he'd put a sock in it sometimes.
Gotta disagree with most everyone, that call to kill off the Rangers and Dagan was completely unnecessary. They'd done so much adventuring underground they forgot how close they were to the surface. (That is, 60-70 feet through the crawlspace, 150 feet to the entrance, and 10 minutes to the cliff, which is 85-100 feet tall.) Even if the TTs worked more cautiously after killing the scouts (I'm assuming the engagement happened further away atop the cliff), that only entails being careful moving down the cliff and crawling through the tunnel. The immediate next step would be climbing down the rope and hitting the trap. Fjord knew they needed multiple hours left, but severely misunderstood the terrain and how close the enemy was. He sacrificed "pawns" for a time advantage that would never exist. Bad move morally _and_ tactically.
ETA: Also, if the three now deceased TTs were expendable and of little concern, it's a strange tactical decision on Fjord's part to use his turn to hack at the bodies instead of going after the BBEG or its healer.
He went for the only one he could get to. Kree was smack dab in the middle of the no-Magic zone and out of his movement reach, and I don't think Far Step was long enough to get him to Lucien, and he only had 5ft of movement left after it. And even if he could have gotten to Lucien, it's been firmly established that ANYONE, especially someone somewhat magic dependent like Fjord, charging into melee with Lucien without reliable support set up is suicide. Also, he may not have realized that the expendables were down and out and thought they were just prone, I which case he didn't want them getting up.
@@herosmith5662 Far Step gave him a 60 foot reach, which he would know from placing the intuit charges is between half and two-thirds the length of the room, so with movement he could have easily made it to Lucien. And yes, if Lucien went next he'd be in trouble, but he has an entire round before that happens for everyone else to get involved. He'd have not only been fine, but he could have been in place to make that counterspell (or if the cone that followed him again, to open up a path for someone else). Same with throwing the arcane gate to the other side of the room: yes, Lucien might dispel it with the cone, but that takes up his time and legendary actions to do, leaving him and ask the rest of the TTs exposed for that turn.
And even if he still chickened out from going after Lucien, he Far Stepped right next to Cree, who as Matt said was well bloodied themself. Magic might not have been possible against them, but his sword would have been fine. (Has it taken him this long to figure out "on the ground and not moving" is Matt's coded way of saying unconscious? He should have known the other three weren't threats, especially as long as they were inside the cone and couldn't be healed.)
Matt explicitly said that Cree "while bloodied, seemed to have recovered much of it", nothing Fjord could have done would have prevented Cree from Dimension Door-ing.
@@user-sl7tm9mf8y Make an attempt to stab Cree through the foot into the ground, pinning her in place?
@@Fierying Whatever few spell slots were used against the rangers would definitely be a small boon in the fight ahead, that's true. But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have taken much for the TTs to kill off or incapacitate the rangers. As for keeping the rangers alive...well, if the M9 succeed, then they're alive if nothing else.
Alternately, I can't help but think they could have been used to follow the TTs through the tunnel and do something to dislodge the precarious rock pile opposite the rope across the chasm. Say, get a fluffernutter to a ranger, who tracks the TTs to the crawlspace to the rope, then once they start their descent he lobs the explosive down the crawlspace as much as he can and books it, so the explosion knocks the rocks onto the TTs, carrying them down past the Symbol into range of the Intuit Charges. Basically the plan as performed, but with added physical damage from having a rock slide land on you and no saving throw to prevent the Symbol causing them to fall off the rope.
Sorry I just really don't get it....
How is throwing people who are dead within 12 seconds (at best) at the Tomb Takers a "hard but necessary call"? I genuinely don't understand. They were 5 or 6 hours into a long rest. No hope of hitting 8.
I feel like I'm going crazy. I thought Sam making fun of Fjord for his cold decision in the rest of the episode was funny because it was so obviously a dumb move that did literally nothing. It really didn't even have a chance to do something. What is happening????
the point of it and why it was the 'hard but necessary' is the idea that yes, the Tomb Takers would destroy the squad. but the idea was them even BEING there might slow the Takers down. make them more cautious. make them check for traps, other squads. if you didn't knwo the place you were going was being watched, and assumed it wasn't, and then you got jumped by an obvious patrol group or at the very least one waiting in ambush, woudl you keep going at a quick pace? or woudl you start looking through the snow to traps. trip wires, mines, glyphs...would you slow down and be wary about if anyone else is coming. we're they checking in somewhere and would them being overdue get someone else stronger or a large force sent to you? how far away might that be? and it's not like Cree could just scry around for it.
so fjord's decision was basically send like 12 people to die, just for the CHANCE that it might buy them the extra hour or two to get a full rest while the Tomb Takers (hopefully) slowed down and moving toward the enterance like they were suddenly in a minefield.