FILTERING and UNDERTAKING? Where do you stand legally?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- MoreBikes has teamed up with our legal partners White Dalton to offer advice and examples of legal cases from scenario’s us riders know only too well. A series designed to help you recognise the potential problems you may face and what you need to do in case the worst happens.
For live cases where you need specific legal advice contact the White Dalton team via www.whitedalton.co.uk
Otherwise if there is anything you would like us to cover let us know in the comments!
Thanks to: On Yer Bike in Aylesbury for allowing us the run of the dealership to film series one. For more information visit their website, www.onyerbike.net
For more in-depth tests, exclusive interviews and the latest news from the world of motorcycling, visit www.MoreBikes.co.uk
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The first and only UA-cam where the instructor got it right on undertaking been legal and not classed as careless driving. Ashley Neal and BlackBeltBarrister are just two of themand should watch this to get their facts right.
You should get your facts right, especially as you're pulling up a barrister on it.
"The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:
overtaking on the inside;"
That's taken directly from the Crown Prosecution Service website.
@@shawty1984 If Overtaking on the inside is careless driving then overtaking 5mph traffic on inside at 1mph faster is an offence under section 3 of the road traffic act. Which is also a criminal offence btw. Have you been taking some funny stuff?
@@saundersdachicken6197 it's the law, I've literally posted it to you straight from the CPS website.
@@saundersdachicken6197I've just posted the law to you straight from the CPS website. It's permitted in certain circumstances as per the Highway Code, but is an offence of careless driving when doing it not permitted. How on Earth you're calling out a barrister, I don't have a clue.
@@shawty1984 What you've sent is one example which is not in the Road Traffic Act. It says " overtaking on the inside". Point out to me where the RTA 3ZA(2) does it mention "in congested traffic".
RTA 3ZA (2) A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
I cannot see in this act where it states anything like undertaking on the left is committing the offence of careless driving.
When I used to ride, occasionally I used to have a driver deliberately block me when I was filtering. Some people think filtering is illegal and by blocking a rider doing it they are 'doing their bit'.
Providing that your filtering was legal any driver that obstructs you would commit an offence of failing to act with reasonable consideration to you under S.3 RTA.
Filtering is legal 'providing that it is done safely'. Its considered and advised by many training bodies that one should not ride at more than 15 mph faster than other vehicles being filtered past. That however does not mean that if other traffic is travelling at say 30 mph on a main road then one can filter past or rather through them at 45 mph. That would be considered, maybe by the courts, if necessary as being dangerous and thus without an expected degree of safety or reasonableness and that could make it illegal. If traffic is making progress at 30 mph its more reasonable to remain with that traffic and stay where one was.
If lane 1 is empty there is no law that makes it an offence to undertake in that lane. Too many drivers think otherwise.
Still waiting for tutoro part 2...
If you are using the oncoming lane it is overtaking. Filtering is done using lanes travelling in the same direction. On a single lane road filtering would require you to stay within your lane while moving past slower traffic.
Nothing wrong with overtaking using the oncoming lane, as long as you're not causing the oncoming traffic to take evasive action
@@thedandude Never said there was anything wrong with using the oncoming lane for overtaking, just pointing out that it is not filtering when you are in the oncoming lane. Too many motorcyclist seem to think using the oncoming lane is filtering and they have the right to do so and oncoming traffic has an obligation to move out of the way. Using the oncoming lane when there is oncoming traffic is unsafe overtaking.
If you are using the inside lane to pass any of the other lanes that is also called overtaking.
@@saundersdachicken6197 that's undertaking because you are passing on the inside not the outside of the "target" vehicle and appears to be sanctioned in the Highway Code due to traffic conditions. It then becomes an offence if you then pull in front of the target vehicle and continue on your merry way having committed an "overtake" in an inappropriate manner.
@@robindeath7568 Depends on what you mean by pulling in front of the vehicle you have just undertaken. It could be a fraction of a second or 4 or 5 seconds. If you do move into lane 2 it may be to overtake a vehicle(s) in lane 1. If it was for no reason it may be lane hogging.
Must car drivers think undertaking is illegal.
The vast majority do think so.
@@saundersdachicken6197that's because it's an offence under careless driving.
@@shawty1984 Undertaking is not. Undertaking careless/recklessly/dangerously is.
@@saundersdachicken6197 undertaking is as per the highway code and RTA 1988.
It maybe legal & as many car drivers have find out in the eyes of the law, they have been hold responsible for RTC...
But the RTC could have been avoided, in one very easy way, the 'Biker' could have chose an alternative action...
This video explains the law as it stands, however there will be Many 'Bikers' out there that will now believe it's their right to Filter...
Having worked in Road Safety for two decades & for a while with a Police Constabulary looking into Motorcycle Accidents,
the outcome was the 'Biker' had been, Morally in the wrong, i.e. put themselves & machine in a dangerous position.
There are two types of riders, one who blast between lanes, places the machine between vehicles at junction obscuring other
road users view etc:
These are 'Bikers'...
Then there are those who by Reading the Road (Marking/Signs), follow traffic safely, use their machines (power when necessary) size when appropriate
to, & use the Road System to make safe progress, where other (car) drivers see a Motorcycle Ambassador:
These are Motorcycle enthusiast...
At the end of the day being right is one thing...
But asked yourself one question :
Was Being Right Worth Being INJURED?
That's what happens...
Chat
I appreciate some sentiment of some of what you say but not the pigeon holing of labelled riders.
I do filter, but I do so with care ...considering the Highwwy Code, legislation & other road users. Perception matters.
I am a motorcycling enthusiast & an ambassador but I am also very much a biker.
I have to accept that other bikers may choose to ride differently than I do.
I passed my “big” bike test in 2003. I believe in the Highway Code and as told by my instructor, it is only legal up to speeds of 50mph. Additionally, you may not travel more than 5mph faster than the speed of the traffic whilst filtering. Has this changed, because, I have always stuck to what I read and what I was told and it actually seems very sensible. Additionally, even though I’m a biker, I believe that every accident is always the biker’s fault. I was hit at a right hand junction in 2005. I slowed from 60mph to 50mph and positioned completely over to the left. However, had I reduced to 45mph, I wouldn’t have been hit. We as bikers must take responsibility for our own safety and assume everyone else is an idiot. As someone who commutes 3 days a week, doing 200 miles a day, I regularly see the @rseholes on the M1, filtering past traffic at 40/50mph faster than the speed of the traffic. I often hope they come a cropper to teach them a valuable lesson.
Never wish ill on someone mate, you should know better.
@@ragetobe Yes, perhaps I should have rephrased it. Yesterday, I was behind a DVSA (Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency) observer who was on a bike. I filtered up to him, he was aware and made space. As I checked my mirror, then was about to do my Lifesaver, some plonker came flying up between us, travelling at least 40mph beyond the traffic speed. The DVSA observer and myself, both shook our heads in incredulity. The DVSA observer was video armed, so hopefully, the clown will get his come-uppance via a ticket from the Police when the video is released to them.
@@pgVeritas While I admire your ability to point out everyone else's faults and issues, in my experience, having toured around the world, and ridden in cities, countryside and autobahn, one of the greatest things I have noticed about great bikers is they tend to accept what is out of their control and don't let it frame their ride. I'm sure that the rider was at fault, but during my extensive training, I have learned to let go of frustrations in less than a millisecond because this thought train can lead to a mistake on your ride or the next one. Getting out of the habit of leaning on the negative is a skill and a beneficial one. Have any of your concerns changed anything, did you catch up with the biker and have a word with him in a nice manner? Venting and ranting about mistakes others have made can be a lifelong task if you let it be, or just let it go and you'll have more time and freedom to do other things.
@@ragetobe I most certainly am not ranting, and I’m certain your experience and training isn’t beyond the majority of most other serious bikers.
As you cover the miles you do, you no doubt realise that idiots actually change lives. It’s not their life that matters, but those who love and are dependent on them, left behind due to stupidity of their loved one. Then there’s the car drivers who may well not be at fault. They have to live with their consciences. It might be ok for some people with vast experience to nonchalantly dismiss, what are mere observations, without a thought for consequences. Unfortunately, for those of us travelling 20k a year, in all but snow, it tends to worry us. We are mature enough to see the devastation that saving a few minutes, at the cost of a life visits on the innocent.
@@pgVeritas Like I said you are ranting, none of what you have said is anything you can change! I'm 50k a year, and I change my bike every year due to that mileage. I'm fortunate that I don't need to work anymore and the bike is my life. I don't go down rabbit holes, they are for rabbits. Keep your mind free and clear of other people's rubbish. Nothing you have said changes the actions of others, and your whining about it isn't improving anything because I would hazard a guess that you are preaching to the already converted. And I am mature enough to recognise bad habits, I can already see you are the type of person who lets another person's behaviour affect your ride, that's not an action I can afford. I have taken all the training that I can in the UK except being an instructor, I have no interest in that, I took up biking to see the world and that is what I have done. I am guessing you are not a teenager, so why whine like one? "It might be ok for some people with vast experience to nonchalantly dismiss, what are mere observations, without a thought for consequences" I make calculated choices to improve my life, and one of them is not putting any thought or time into things I cannot change, like I said your mere observation is just that, but wow you like to harp on a point.
Of course the drivers don't understand filtering. Motorcyclists don't understand filtering either. Filtering is not defined in the highway code. It's mentioned to be legal in certain circumstances - but the actual process of filtering is not defined. Please tell use if you have seen a definition of filtering in UK legislation?
I ride a BMW R1250rt with full panniers and I have no issue filtering at all. People have issues with me doing it though, I’d say 70% of cars see me coming and make room for me.
Good short video- agree with everything said.
Not all countries allow filtering so we in the UK are luckier than some despite the heavy traffic.
Where in the legislation / hwc does it say it is legal? For me perfectly legal is too strong, most of the time it isn't illegal, which is subtly different. It does go against the advice in the hwc on overtaking (which filtering esentialy is).
Yes you are highly unlikely to be prosecuted for careless riding, unless you do it unsafely, but it is more the courts have decided it isn't in the public interest ro prosecute, than the laws explicitly allow it. It does reduce congestion and it makes sense not to prosecute it, drivers should expect it and make allowances for it. But if it gets abused badly, there would be nothing that i am aware of that would stop the courts / cps to crack down on it.
The Highway Code in Rule 268 says Do Not instead of Must Not. Rule 163 says Only overtake on the left .....
The only words used in the code to state a rule is a legal requirement are Must and Must Not. You could be prosecuted under careless driver in other rules but to be so it has to proven beyond reasonable doubt that the standard of driving fell well below the standard expected from a reasonable safe and competent driver. Simply overtaking on inside (undertaking) is insufficent.
Rule 88, rule 129
@@saundersdachicken6197no it isn't insufficient. It's an offence under careless driving unless when it's permitted.
Can filter when safe to do so.
When a biker overtakes a queue then does below the speed limit and holds everyone up. Yeah bikers are great.
You seem to be misunderstanding a key word in your comment. Probably due to hatred of bikers. The word is limit btw.
No autobahn filtering in Austria or Germany I am told
You can filter in Germany as long as traffic is stationary! On the autobahn, German driver's automatically pull over left and right, this is to pre-empt any emergency vehicles which need to get through in the event of an incident ahead.
Many US States don't allow filtering.
If there is more than one lane going forwards and traffic on the outside lane is travelling slower than the traffic on the inside lane then you can go with that faster moving traffic. on the inside lane. The H.C. has always maintained that to be the case. However what it also say is if you move from one lane to another in order to take advantages of that faster lane then you may be committing a moving traffic offence. So if you are already in that lane its ok to stay in it and undertake but if you are not then it could be an offence to move into it.???????
There's nothing illegal on moving from an outer lane to undertake. You're moving back into an empty lane 1 after an overtake there is no law to state you Must Not pass slower moving traffic thats in the outer lanes.
@@saundersdachicken6197 S. 268 of the H.C. does says do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. That can be an offence under S. 3 RTAct. However if all lanes are in use and with slow moving traffic one can undertake a slower moving lane to your offside. However changing lanes left or right to gain an advantage of speed etc. could also be considered to be an offence as well. But some drivers do it, never the less it could be construed to be against the law.
@@rcraven1013 Yes it could be an offence but rule 268 doesn't say it is an offence to undertake. RTA 3ZA (2) A person is to be regarded as Driving Without Due Care and Attention if *( and only if)* the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver. Moving back into a left lane after an overtake is not classed as CD. Neither is overtaking on the left after doing so. I don't understand what you mean by taking advantage means. If lane 1 is empty then I'm required to move back into it, if I didn't I would be lane hogging. Hoggers don't set the speed limits for those who want to overtake.
@@saundersdachicken6197 Undertaking was and still is considered an increased risk as it creates an unwarranted danger to drivers and all other road users. Yes I agree that one should return back to lane one after an overtake but it does not give one the right to then undertake the next vehicle or vehicles. Unless those vehicles are travelling in a slower lane than oneself and one is also travelling in such a queue. and you are all going faster than the offside lane. Doing it by oneself is an unnecessary risk and if seen by a police officer or caught on camera or video one could find oneself in trouble and possibly prosecuted under S. 3 as stated.
If one is travelling in lane one and lane two is taken up by a slower vehicle than yours you would be obliged to move over to lane three in order to overtake and not to remain in lane one and undertake, That is the general rule of the road that everyone has to abide by and if one undertakes that would be considered to be unreasonable driving and tantamount to be contrary to S 3.
If its only a two lane motorway and you puled into the offside lane behind that other vehicle and was less than the safe stopping distance form it in order to force it to move and enable you to overtake, your actions could be considered dangerous and unreasonable and you would be tailgating and that is also an offence under S.3.
@@rcraven1013 How would undertaking cause an unwanted danger to all other road users? If a car in lane two slowly reduces speed and turns into my lane 1 and collides with me who would be at fault for driving without due care and attention? If undertaking creates a danger then driving alongside a vehicle to your right would creates a bigger danger, yet that is not illegal.
The fact is driving at 70mph passing a vehicle in lane two is *not* an offence. Hoggers don't have the power to reduce the speed to what they are doing.
You can go across a solid white line to overtake/filter proving that vehicle you are passing is travelling at less than 12mph.
I appreciate you may be trying to help others but your advice is at variance to Rule 129 of the UK Highway Code.
@@AW8UK As an IAM observer that's what I do, try to help.
@@MichaelSmith-mc8bd I acknowledge your observer status but that does not change the law or the Highway Code. There are some exceptions but not as you have stated.
I suggest you look at Rule 129 of HC &/or speak to your Chief Observer. If as an observer you have given the wrong advice then that is a matter for you & or anyone who may have accepted what you have said.
Not being confrontational here but your advice is incorrect.
Wrong