Have progressives become bigoted? | Andrew Doyle
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- "Don't you find it slightly depressing? The idea that free speech, a fundamental cornerstone value of our society, is now mistrusted?"
Progressive people have suddenly become 'bigots,' Andrew Doyle, comedian and broadcaster tells Hugo Rifkind on #TimesRadio.
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As an old progressive I’m fed up. After a lifetime of supporting social justice & a world that is inclusive and beyond ethnic biases- it seems we are being dragged backwards into a kind of eugenics and intolerance that appears to have little regard for science, critical analysis, & the broad scope of history.
What is funny is that I have read what you have posted. The book was 1984, you have to believe us no matter what. If we say 2+2=5 then its true even math says it false.
@@chollyappleseed1969 modern-day "progressives" did a lot more damage to race relations in 5 years, than every ethno-extremist group in 40 years.
I am liberal and grew up believing skin color didnt matter. Woke progressives say color matters more than merit or equality of opportunity. They want x numbef of people of this color or this gender or this orientation. That seems antithetical to social liberalism.
I am rejected lately..at age 68..by a good friend since I was 18...he chucked his buddy because his teenagers claim great harm to their home schooled, organic, covid isolated 2 years now, self esteem....this man is being 'played' by his middle and high schoolers into rejecting people they dislike..this social gaming energy would be better spent on fellow on fellow teens available in crowds at public schools but this friends a sentimental fool here.....
@@roypfeiffer4442 simply from the inferences you've subtly made, it seems that your "friend" made a wise choice
I would call myself now a radical centrist. Ten years ago, I was just a centrist. I go after wokeness and people think I'm far right. I go after Trump, and people think I'm far left. No one seems to know what the reasonable middle is any more.
I reside there anyway ☺️
It’s hilariously frustrating. Most people lack the faculties for basic logic. Unfortunately, SM allowed morons to gain positions of intellectual power.
you are not alone. sane people need to be heard
And it's not just the U.S. and the UK. This is a very disturbing phenomenon; people can only think in absolutes now and if someone tries to point out that there usually is a middle ground, and that maybe we should think things through rationally, they're immediately labeled either far-left or far-right.
On the plus side, I feel like more and more people are starting to realize that this sort of radical thinking is very harmful.
Yes .
In the book "1984" limiting the range of acceptable thought was a way The Party kept the population under control. Limiting which words were acceptable to use was part of that control.
You are making a really meta argument, probably without realising it. What your see as limitations of thought is thinking that challenges your thoughts as being limiting because God forbid anyone challenge your thinking ;-)
@@mendizim Are you sure you are replying to the correct comment here?
@@mendizim You sound very confused, lol!
@@mendizim - Hogwash.
We are told silence is violence. By this standard disagreement is genocide. I walked away in 2014.
I'm all for everyone being included in society. But this cancelling of people is bigotry of the worst kind! It's censorship of opposing ideas. It's the same as not talking to someone because of their race/ gender / age/ weight etc. It's wierd that the ones who say their inclusive exclude opponents with different views! Hypocrisy 🤷♂️
Social media has destroyed peoples capacity for nuance, we are as a species meant to be highly social but these apps have destroyed real interactions that are vital to understand what someone is trying to convey
On the contrary: social media lays bare what human beings actually are: highly social creatures predisposed towards tribalist thinking.
What causes me most annoyance, is when people tell me "Well there is nothing you can do about it, we have no power" .
There are of course two reasons why I could be annoyed, 1) Their acceptance and view that nothing can be pushed back at this stage or 2) The possibility that they are correct . 😢
You always have power. Consider the fact that you can, in almost every situation, bite someone.
@@SelectKiko 😳😂
@@SelectKiko Hello Suarez!
@@SelectKiko 🤣🤣🤣
yes. ask them "which is the worst race" and they'll definitely have an answer
It goes beyond race - veganism, climate change, hate speech etc etc etc.
the worse race is Monte Carlo and has always been... but it is a traditional part of F1
@@fixpontt the worst race is NASCAR: you're only making left turns!
No?
It won’t be a race it’ll be a colour.
Revising words is a way of denying and rejecting reality.
Good intentions gone bad, in my oppinion. When people hire based on a persons skin color, sex, or orientation, that is no different from racism, sexism, or bigotry. The equality of outcome, meaning having a person that is this or that as opposed to equality of opportunity, which was what all rights movements were about, is being destroyed by woke progressives. Equality and merit is how I was raised and I found the 90s when I grew up was more liberal and progressive than todays culture. Now people are litterally told we cant hire because your white and we are looking for women or bipoc as they have numbers they need to reach. Thats crazy. Thats just a fact today.
'Good intentions'.... IIRC that's what the road to hades is filled with...
@@fourbirds4201 that ai can get behind, the issue here is to define employment or society by statistics. If that was the case where are the latino, indian, and asian representation in media and workforce distribution. We must be more humane by treating people as humans not defined by their ethnicity or their sex. I believe in egalitarianism and encourage programs that give people equal access including those with disabilities. There are ways to assist and encourage that.
Just what I needed this morning, a pity it was so short.
Brilliant. Thank you for such a sensible and valuable discussion👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽
I blame the British main stream media. During the BREXIT campaign (and still today) zero sum arguments abounded. British citizens became entrenched and unable to listen to alternative view points. The population is lazy and most people won´t bother trying to think about things on a deeper level.
The media is easily the biggest single culprit in creating this environment, traditional media, Social Media and Entertainment media. There are other groups responsible such academia and politicians but the biggest blame is at the feet of the media who try to create division and hate and push their own warped angry ideology.
This is wider than Britain. Check out America.
They have been for a while, the well off urban White leftist is the person that walks to the other side of the street because of the black guy. I grew up in a rural area of just Whites and Indians and when I went to the university I was shocked at the blatant racism of the well to do urban "progressives" who called everyone else racist and it has only become worse the last few years. The recent incident where the super wealthy progressive resort of Martha's Vinyard absolutely freaking out over 48 brown people is very representative of how these people really are, they use "wokeism" to virtue signal I guess to reduce their internal guilt at how racist they are and to keep others from realizing how racist they are. No group has damaged race, gender and religious relations more than these so called "progressives".
I have a step-daughter highly trained in a social science based clinical profession married to a man who is a vey highly intelligent highly educated in a STEM subject. Both have rejected the traditional religion they were brought up in but have adopted the woke ideology completely. They cannot see that they have replaced one religion with another. Are they bigoted? I'm afraid I have come to the the very sad conclusion that they are. Both my wife and I have decided that there are a whole range of subjects we simply cannot discuss with them. Our once enjoyable free ranging discussions with them have become stulted and boring.
You're confused about what a religion is. I'm sure you and your wife have a good laugh about religions other than yours as well. I'm sure you found Boris Johnson and his letter box "joke" most amusing. I know your type.
It is always a bit cringe heating or seeing people use the word "woke" which originated as a slang term that simply means being awake to or aware of the world around you. It can by no stretch of the imagination be referred to as an ideology because it does not have a construct or system of ideas that define it.
For an example I consider myself woke in a pretty bog standard way, workers rights, free speech, basic human rights, wary of corporate power and oligarchs etc. However there are those would say I am not because I am not a Covid denier, 5g mind control nonsense believer, anti establishment conspiracy theorist.
Truth is that those who are at odds with fundamental rights for all have turned "woke" in to some sort of boogie man with an organised agenda when it is very much a personal journey that asks that you really observe the world around you and try to be knowledgeable, think critically and have some empathy and understanding. Unfortunately that often is seen as a problem when opinions differ and people check each other for what are often unconscious biases.
@@mendizim exactly. Scared boomer halfwits calling everything woke communism these days.
So what is it you feel you can not say?
@@toi_techno you are part of the problem
Just read 1984
Only just now? Crazy, most of us read it when we were children
@@WeeWeeJumbo For many it didn't really help, did it?
Thank eff Andrew Doyle has the intelligence to shoulder past canards like "the far right are free speech fans" in real time.
I have been a progressive for many decades in America and even worked for Bernie Sanders on his last presidential campaign. I support progressive economic values in regard to poor, working, and middle class families and also support progressive values towards human rights, both in America and abroad. However, I also recognize that America must prioritize its work towards stopping authoritarian regimes, in particular communist China and Russia.
When I bring up this issue with other progressives, I get nowhere. They either do not care or fail to understand that communist China and Russia want to supplant America, the West, and democratic ideals with their own brand of power and rule.
I want an American president who is a progressive but is also very anti-communist China. For some reason, Republicans are anti-communist China but progressives are mute on the subject. I really, really do not want to vote for a Republican. But, I recognize that communist China is the world's most dangerous power to democratic values...
I remember before he ran for President in 2016 Bernie was very anti China as far as putting major tariffs on them to help American industry and workers but he seemed to drop all that because the current Dem party is all about "free trade" no matter how many workers lives it destroys in this country. I did leave this corporatist version of the Dem party and I now support the populist wing of the Republican party, I may not agree with them on everything but I know they are very anti corporatist, pro small business and working class and they realize the danger China poses.
The old Puritans have had a bad press for some justifiable reasons. Many of them were kind, compassionate , concerned about the value of the individual, equality under the law and education for all. We need to have a balanced view.
You're certainly right, and I generally sympathize with the Puritans (I'm a Protestant myself). But everything is about the measure of things and extremism - that is, excessive radicalism and intolerance. Cromwell is a good example - he dissolves the parliament because it is just "chattering" in it and begins to rule as a dictator. He is simply convinced that only he knows best what is right. Bridget Bishop was burned at the stake in Salem because she went to the pub, dressed "unpuritanically" and was married three times. Evil consists in the belief that I am the owner of the truth and know what is good and that gives me the right to impose my good on you even with the use of repression
They abolished Christmas and ushered in a military dictatorship.
If you are speaking of the Puritans who came to the American colonies.... no. Please read some history about the Puritans and what they actually did and hwo they behaved, what rules their society had, and what they were trying to achieve. It wasn't pretty. They were extraordinarily intolerant and often cruel and violent to those with other views, including, for example, Quakers. They are also responsible for the witch hunts in Massachusetts in the late 1600s. There is no way to reconcile this North American group of Puritans with the concept of tolerance.
The Times journalist used "covid skepticism" as an example that there is an association between people who are defending liberal values attracting an awful lot of people from the far right.
What do you mean you wish you had more time? Of course you have more time, just do it, let the man talk for 10 more minutes . . . Damn! if he's worth interviewing don't cut it short. UA-cam does not charge you to make longer videos . . . cut it into two parts if it does. This man knows what he's talking about (rare gift in this day and age) and talks fast so he gives a lot for the money.
Luckily, you can find plenty more interviews with Andrew Doyle on UA-cam, including recent ones about his new book!
Disingenuous.
I assume that qualifies as an argument in your circles. You, and the people that like your comment, just prove his point. Rather than engage with his position, you satisfy yourself by assuming him to be doing something wrong, slap a label on it and move on.
Bigoted towards bigots makes one a…?
I love your channel, but could you just fire this interviewer? He looks smug, bored, and hungover every time I see him…
To the topic posted: absolutely! And they no longer are progressives willing to debate any topic. Just static hardliners unwilling to be dynamic progressive thinkers. Just pure intellectual laziness. Let us who are truly dynamic thinkers prey on them.😂😂😂
In the US, the big difference between the right and left is not primarily one of political opinion. The US right has lost total contact with reality, believing things that are untrue, whose falsehood are easily demonstrated. As a physicist for over 50 years, I have always wanted to know the truth of a matter rather than to have a particular outcome of an experiment. One of the most critical issues facing humanity over the next century is climate change. The expected changes, which are fully consistent with observed changes over the last decades, will have a significant impact on the US and the world. The right, rather than to engage in discussion of the correct public policies to minimize the impact on our civilization, has chosen to deny the reality of this crisis. This arrogance, cynicism, and contempt for expertise in general is really what separates the left and right in the US, and not any difference in policy.
Those negative traits are shared by the right all over the world
You mean like the left who say a man can be a woman by saying so, math is racist, and any discrepancy in outcome must be a product of bigotry? Stop being so bloody one eyed.
the gop after 168years is now a cult the ROT Republicans of Trump...pathetic..that is a BIG difference!!!!
This is what I Iike to call Bleating Wolf Syndrome: Where one group adopt the rethoric of their opposing group, in hopes of appearing to more neutral parties that they aren't the aggressor.
Agree
I don't understand your comment
@@michaelwright7326 Read it again but drop the word "syndrome" It's the wolf talking (bleating) like it's a sheep . . .
100% true
It's narrativical tyranny. Or verbalogical witchcraft.
It’s scratchmological waxploitation. All this scratching is making me itch?
I really wish that more people would realise how ridiculous and self-contradictory the current positions and arguments of the far left and far right are.
You’re talking about this now? You’re 5-6 years late.
It's ideological, totalitarian thinking vs democratic, liberal thinking.
They have no logical answers to their problems. Woke Folk remind me of me when I don't get enough sleep and eat too many carbs.
There's no such thing as woke folk.
Why haven’t you move to the woods yet?
They claim to be anti-racist but are some of the most xenophobic people I have ever seen.
@@TheMahayanist There is and they're damn annoying and socially dangerous.
@@TheMahayanist If you say there are 'no woke folk' that just means that you're one of them. Most of your type have no self-awareness.
Supporting Trump isn’t a slight political difference.
Brilliant.
Who are these woke progressive people. ...just a invention of this guy's book
Always.Meanwhile back in Portlandastan.......
One of the problems with the author’s argument is that he started complaining about people criticising free speech by citing an example criticising someone else’s speech. We call all do better in communicating and respecting others but only looking at the language of people you disagree with doesn’t help.
That wasn’t a problem at all in the circumstances. See the very first sentence in his book to see why it was a comment well worthy of criticism. He wasn’t criticising that person’s “speech”: rather it was a very particular comment, much diluted in this video.
I don't know anyone who has been fired or punished at work because of "wokeism". I've read about people to whom it happened, for example the woman who called the police on a birdwatcher in Central Park because he asked her to put her dog on a lead, as required by the rules in that part of the park.
Where do you get most of your news from. Not all news agency give you all the information.
That woman was fired for being exactly the opposite of 'woke'. You should add that she called the police to report, in a frantic voice, that she was being attacked by an African-American man in Central Park, and not that he had simply asked her to leash her dog.
@@chezmoi42 You're right, she was fired by her employers who were "woke". She works now, dog was returned to her after being impounded briefly.
@@pynn1000 I'm glad she found a job, but I can certainly understand why a company would not want someone who acts that way working for them. She showed herself to be a nasty piece of work. I hope she's learned her lesson and did some soul-searching.
@@chezmoi42Have a listen to Bari Weis’ podcast called “Honestly” … there is another side to the story (told by the woman herself).
Doesn’t mean the right can’t be…
Yes, they won’t let me use the N Word
Anymore. I get Cancelled for being a
Bigot. I am the Victim here. 😭
if youre whte then your comment is null and void. Only oppressed here, thx.
Thats not whats being talked about here, its about extremist views. Regardless if its left or right
In the 1950s, le far-left used words like "counter-revolutionary", "fascist" and "burgeois". Now they use "bigot", "homophobe", "racist"... Oh the progress.
Well clearly you are a bigot towards those you view as bigots. The woke left has many, many racist policies and beliefs. they just think that their form of racism is 'right' and the other people have the worst, most evil thoughts ever to have been created. Affirmative action is racism, picking supreme court justices and vice presidents on the basis of color is racist, labeling white people as 'oppressors' is racist. etc. This is about the left trying to control peoples thoughts and words and gaining power by doing so. Also, 'woke' people make themselves high by being 'woke.' Much the same as people who believe in whatever god make themselves high from convincing themselves they are talking to their god.
I always ask people using the word “woke” as a pejorative to define it. Try it. It’s normally really funny.
"Among conservatives, woke has come to be used primarily as an insult.[27][2][45] In this pejorative sense, woke means "following an intolerant and moralising ideology".[17] British journalist Steven Poole comments that the term is used to mock "overrighteous liberalism".[46] Romano says that on the American right, "'woke' - like its cousin 'canceled' - bespeaks 'political correctness' gone awry".[2]
Opponents of progressive social movements often use the term mockingly or sarcastically,[2][47] implying that "wokeness" is an insincere form of performative activism." - wikipedia
People that unnecessarily separate people into different categories based on the color of their skin. People who are woke think the color of ones skin should play a role in every aspect of society, like which colleges you can get into. Progressives got transgenderism right, treat everyone the same and it's not an issue. Progressives got race wrong, treat everyone differently because woke people get to decide who is a victim. No one wants to be a class of people considered a victim by default. It's degrading and insulting.
Anti White, Anti Male, Anti Heterosexual, Feminazi's, Extreme Feminists. Is that simple enough for you?
We didn't define ourselves as such, it was your choice
So you define it
That will be fun.
Also define what "progressive" means. Probably something like "everything that agrees with my ideology".
lol let's go with no.
Excuse me you have to waste your time trying to form human connections to morally bankrupt monsters. Otherwise you’re not a *true* progressive, because true progressives tolerate even intolerance, and somehow that’s not supposed to be suicidal.
Reward monsters with your presence, or else
Yes. That is all
Progress to the Abyss...
They were ALWAYS BIGOTS
'become'?
No, conservatives worldwide have staked out political and ethical positions that are unacceptable to decent people. Hope this helps.
Love always,
The Americans
WeeWeeJumbo, can you list the positions conservatives worldwide have staked out which are unethical and unacceptable?
@@DPMConnacht even if he did, would you not just ague against it? so why make such a non constructive comment mate
@@zach446, no Zach I wouldn't. All I'll say is stereotypes exist on both sides of the political spectrum.
I've always been a moderate on virtually all issues/topics and if I have one serious flaw it is can't tolerate anyone who refuses to accept someone can have a different point of view without name calling, shunning, etc.
The far right are crazy, so too is the far left. The argument begins as to who decides when the right becomes "far right" and vice versa on the left.
If this can't be debated without resorting to name calling, shunning, threats, etc. then the logical conclusion is at some point it will become an actual physical confrontation and everyone will have to choose a side. Because if it is anything like today....the one's looking to find common ground are labeled traitors by both sides.
Yes.
A lot of broad generalities without one actual example. I would say it amuses me but it’s not actually funny, that this guest and others like him feel constrained from saying whatever is on their mind. Presumably, they want to feel free to spew out some sort hatred or racist views without any consequences. What was once called “Political correctness”, is now labeled “Woke” and heaven help anyone that displays any sort of common decency to their fellow human beings without immediately being howled down or in this instance, labeled “bigoted”.
The rest of us understood him. Equality is the principle that each individual holds his or her position based on personal ability, regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. Not that because someone is trans, they get the position. Not that every movie has to have other races represented - so even a historical movie has blacks playing the nobility. Not that every movie has to have a positive gay character etc. I grew up in a communist country and this propaganda and manipulation - albeit in a different form - is very familiar to me. But on the other hand, I understand that every culture has its specific historical connotations. So in the US it's impolite to say "black" (because it was a slur), so they use "African American". But, for example, in my country it was never a swear word. There is not even a word other than "black man" ("černoch") in my language (Czech). That there are different races is a fact and to deny it is pathetic. That in itself is not racism. I can say "that's a beautiful black woman, it would be great to have her as a wife". There are whites, blacks, Asians.. - ok. The important thing is not to feel superior because I belong to a certain race. It is the same with men and women, etc.
@@recycledbeansalad His point went completely over your bonce. Maybe don't
comment, until you have properly interpreted someone's meaning, instead of twisting such to suit your own limited bias! You are welcome!
Wow, way to completely misunderstand a conversation. I guess you don't like intelligent, critical thought do you. Bit too much reality!
What did Andrew say that made you think he detests common decency? To me it looks more like he's fighting for it, rather than against it.
Full of hate
So correct...
Ridiculous. Ludicrous. Absurd.
Another conservative giving moral lectures, never seen that before 🤣
You just proved his point..
@@nicholasrice8693 how? 😅
Hes not, hes a northern lefty.
Just like me and I totally agree with him.
@@nicholasrice8693 Sure did with a petty, infantile response, lol.
A very good book, great to listen to on audible in the car