EXACTLY ! i like the music in the divine beasts, but that is literally it for me. why tf on earth does the fire dungeon boss in BotW not do wacky fire punches or some sh**?? like it's so dang simple my dudes
The "Zelda Cycle", "Sonic Cycle" and "Star Wars Cycle" are natural byproducts of people having time to critically evaluate media after their honeymoon phases wear off. While TotK is a blast to play for the first 5-6 hours, eventually the cracks in the gameplay loop begin to show and the story becomes more questionable the more you mull it over. It's only natural to compare games and movies to their predecessors and determine what was done better and what wasn't, so I always find it a bit strange when people claim that these types of "Cycles" are odd or unnatural. There's still tons of people out there who love TotK and sing its praise, but of course more negativity will eventually arise the more time people have to properly analyze it.
Nah, there's no way it isn't some f$ckery. People talked mad smack when LoZ:TP and LoZ:SS were new, which was when younger me played them and had to deal with their sh¡t talking, but now people wanna pretend like that they can be all buddy buddy with us now that those games are old. All I'm seeing is an endless cycle of negativity around whatever the new Zelda is no matter what the new Zelda is, and I'm getting sick of negativity in this fandom, if we can even call it a fandom at this point. I'm getting sick of people always talking sh¡t about every single Zelda game.
@@weatherman1504 people have high expectations of zelda games, especially when the releases are so few and far between. Totk has a lot of issues, but honestly they aren’t as big of a deal as the fatigue people are feeling for these games formula.
@@BaNgInHeAdS hell even one third of the originals is bad (episode 6) but the cycle still exists because a lot of people now claim that the prequals are good all of a sudden just becuase the sequel triology is also bad
@@marvinvogtde I really debated saying the same thing about Return of the Jedi. Ultimately I just threw it in with the other two for brevity. The one thing I do appreciate about tbe prequels is that it was one guy who was authentically trying to tell a story. Sure he lacked in execution but it is preferable to the three barely connected movies created by a focus groups under Disney.
I find it amazing that a lot of people have gotten tired of the open air Zelda when there’s only been 2 games that use it in comparison to the 5 games that use the traditional formula (not including the 2D games like ALTTP that also has a similar formula) but I think I may have a theory as to why. Zelda games have always been unique in comparison to other games, they’re not quite RPGS their not quite Adventure games their not quite 3D puzzle games. All of it was combined to make Zelda a very unique genre, and while BOTW and TOTK have Zelda elements they’re easily considered as open world games similar to RDR,GTA,Elden Ring, etc. there are so many open world games that it’s far easier for Open Air Zelda to feel tired. Funny enough if and when the series finally merged to two formulas, it should still feel like a Open word game but more importantly it will feel like a Open world ZELDA game. If that makes sense
It's boring because it is very repetitive. I felt exhausted to play the same all over again being finished a BOTW run just before the release of the game. I mean, just the task of having to find the koroks AGAIN, was... frustrating at least
It's becoming so infruiating I swear I feel like if you enjoy those games now you're not a real Zelda fan because of people literally crucifying the wild era games which are... Two games comparing to literally every other game who have basically the same structure. TotK and BotW aren't even my fav Zelda games put the resentment for those games is blown out of proportion
@theblackmoonrising I bought botw in April as my first Zelda game and sunken 200 hours into. I'm currently 65 hous into totk and I see no reason to compare these games to the previous ones. Yes they are different but you can still enjoy them as it is, after all, they're video games meant to be played for entertainment. And then there goes for every content I see on UA-cam is either totk being compared to botw or totk being compared to anything else before botw 💀
I really don't wanna tell people they can't feel a certain way, but I just can't help but see things like this and find it super unfair to the game. Most criticisms I see either have such an obvious in-game solution/explanation or are blown out of proportion, yet that negative image is gonna follow this game for possibly ever. Luckily it seems to be limited to the more Zelda specific communities as I've found myself understanding criticisms more in other places, but it's still such a shame.
It has been hilarious to see it go from "this game makes BotW obsolete!" to "Meh, the story does have some glaring issues (this one is true, but it's good in isolation, just has weird lore choices and awkward connective tissue with BotW)" to "worst Zelda ever and you suck if you enjoy it". I've been playing since LttP, so I know being a major fan of Zelda should be its own ASD (of course I include myself, refer to pfp lol) but these people rival Sanic's fanbase. I respect opinions, but it's the more.. we'll say passionate ones that will crucify you if you love TotK that I just can't help but envision being like Chris Chan pepper spraying a Gamestop employee because Sanic's arms were blue.
I think I’m one of the few who played hundreds if not thousands of hours of Botw (to the point of 100% everything) who liked Tears of the kingdom just as much if not more. You could say it’s because it feels like dlc but honestly TOTK is Botw with more stuff and cooler things to do, better dungeons, story and bosses and more to explore. Sure the exploration I got from Botw May never be topped but TOTK just feels like the definitive Botw imo. Honestly the only reason I would recommend people to play Botw first before TOTK is if they are a casual gamer who would be overwhelmed by TOTK, or if they are somebody who likes character and story, and the events of bot could ad more weight to the events of TOTK, but even then I can just tell them to watch the cutscenes then play TOTK
I don't think this is as uncommon as it seems honestly. TotK is designed with people's BotW knowledge in mind, and I don't think it would work as well as a standalone game since you wouldn't be as inclined to skip half a map you've never seen before.
@@speedude0164 I get what you mean, but there were a decent number of areas I didn’t return to that new players if totk may have. Only reason I went back in totk was to 100% the game, I’m glad I did return though tbf
@@benjthewhite That is kinda what I'm saying. Instead of treading across the surface like you did in Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom encourages you to spot landmarks from Sky Islands and skydive straight there, skipping a whole bunch of terrain in the process. To new players, those landmarks are gonna be much more plentiful.
In my opinion Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are BOTH majorly overrated. Not because they are badly designed, but because they are too simplified WHILE ALSO being too big for the actual content they contain. In a vacuum I would say TOTK is the better game of the two, and if you stuck the Sheikah Slate in TOTK so that you had both game's powers it'd be the "best" those games can be. But TOTK coming after BOTW, with objectively minimal changes, it's just very tedious. MM reused OoT assets but made something entirely new out of it. This just copy-pasted 75% of the game. Again, I think it's *BETTER* , but not different enough to not make it feel extremely repetitive. Moving past that however, I feel the main issue with the game(s) can be summed up with "what's the point?". What's the point of fusing more than a couple different types of vehicles? What's the point of fusing items and gear outside of a very few specific instances? Most importantly what's the point of exploring this giant ass map? The game doesn't support anything complex enough to make discovering hidden things actually worthwhile. Take the weapon system: it literally just boils down to 1H sword, 2H sword, spear. That's it. Bigger number = better. You know what is an easy-to-point-to example of a game with a way better system? Souls games. Look at how diverse builds are in that game. Why? Because so many weapons have unique movesets. And people gravitate towards all sorts of different styles of weapons and armor because of their preferred gameplay style. In makes exploring to find new weapons a very meaningful goal and reward. Gear could have had a weight system that trades off mobility with defense or gives more tangible benefits than the very slight differences the current games offer. That's not to say I want Zelda to be like Dark Souls, I want Nintendo to take some inspiration from it and make their own thing though. You know another system that this game could have benefitted from? One from its own series - discovering new items. There's some of that old-style that Aonuma apparently hates now! Why does open world have to mean absence of classic items? (Put aside the dungeons they typically come with for now). Something like the hookshot could have been an awesome introduction that helped with climbing things. And it's a hell of a lot faster and simpler than "let me sit here fusing some stupid hoverboard for 5 minutes". Hookshot halfway up the wall, climb up, hookshot to another ledge, climb more. No more hookshot targets needed, just shoot at any rock or tree and go. They have such a large item pool of ideas to draw from for interesting uses. But all of this hinges on the game world supporting this stuff. And the fact is the world is simply too big the way it is now. 80% of the map is nearly worthless to explore. More of this stuff could be sprinkled around, discovering some special sword with unique moves in a mountain cave that requires the hookshot to get to for example. I mean this is just a comment I'm writing in 5 minutes with some ideas, imagine what we all know the Zelda team is capable of dreaming up with years of planning. The fact is they are holding back way too much.
they created a big game with all this stuff to do and places to go but nothing that's actually worth doing, and nowhere worth going. after doing almost everything and going almost everywhere i just felt extremely unsatisfied, like i just wasted a huge amount of my life.
The problem with these games is EVERYTHING that should be fun and exhilarating also requires you to do an insane amount of tedious and boring work. Building machines requires you to grind for battery. Exploring requires you to grind shrines for stamina. Weapon fusion requires pace-breaking menu navigation. Weapon degradation almost encourages players to hoard more than experiment freely. Korok seeds kill progression. And side quests barely provide adequate rewards. The game forces me to make it fun and worthwhile rather than it providing that experience and I’d be cool with this if I also didn’t play $70
That's exactly what I've been thinking. I prefer BOTW but many gameplay elements in TOTK are objectively better and I was really sitting on that for a while thinking WHY do I still like it less and that's because those abilities would be AWESOME in a different game. I didn't have any fun experimenting in TOTK with the fusion and ultrahand systems because every single time you try something it costs you incredible amount of time and resources. Why should I put a star on a magical rod to discover it does LITERALLY NOTHING and be disappointed that I wasted 2 useful items? Why should I spend hours building interesting contraptions when I can just spam Y on enemies I can kill in 5 seconds? Why do I have to fuse rocks every single time to sticks just to go through a cave that is filled to the brim with useless rocks that act as a "obstacle" and why does every weapon I make that's actually practical have to look so ridiculous? Like, half of the "intended" materials and weapon combos look like from soke wAcKy BoInGo shitpost
I loved the first 20 hours of BOTW but hated the rest once it began repeating. It's a 20 hour game padded and stretched into a 60+ hour experience. Running across flat, green textures and fighting the same copy pasted moblins, bokoblins and lizalfos 10,000 times over isn't content. Totk is worse, copy pasting the same map and enemies from its predecessor. Also bang on the money with the Dark Souls weapon system analogy. I couldn't take Botw seriously after I saved the Zora domain from the divine beast and they bestowed on me a trident used by a fallen champion during the great calamity battle, a priceless heirloom revered by its peo- and it's gone. Shattered to dust after 20 swings to a moblins rear end.
Tears had so much potential I feel like. Nintendo could’ve made it so much cooler if they would’ve learned how to make the game have an actual progressing story. Don’t get me wrong I loved Ganon in totk, but if he was actually doing stuff in Hyrule instead of sitting underground waiting, it would’ve been so much better. I wish they would make link relatable too, like link in twilight princess was perfect and is still my fav version. I rlly wanted totk to have new towns, or new music choice since it was in the same map. If Nintendo would just listen some times, and actually think about how to make a good story for an open world game, totk could’ve been soooo much better. There’s also so many story problems, many wondered why caves and wells, and sky islands randomly appeared while all Nintendo said was “because of the upheaval” they could’ve explained it way more and just using the upheaval as an excuse every time doesn’t work.
Fully agree on that really. They seem to have a weird relationship with story in their games nowadays and seemingly fail to realize how much richer an experience can be when there's careful thought to the story, characters and worldbuilding. They're better game makers than story makers and while I do admire that they focus on gameplay primarily, it still leaves the experiences lacking that extra spice.
I personally never understood the sentiment that Ganon had no presence in this game, cause I actually had the opposite feeling. I feel like his presence is very frequently there and is an oppressive presence. Sure he never physically is there but the things like the gloom, the new monster types, the gloom hands and phantom ganon, the entirety of the depths and the holes that lead into them. Plus all of the different impacts the upheaval had on each region, the Gerudo region being the biggest example of this, essentially being under a zombie apocalypse. In botw ganon never felt like he was really there aside from the guardians and malice, but even then, the guardians are much more emblematic of the sheika if anything. But yeah I felt Ganon had actually a much larger, though mostly indirect presence in totk which led to the endgame feeling that much more climactic. If his indirect presence already feels so oppressive and intimidating, the lair he resides in must be unimaginably dangerous, and it IS. That’s why gloom’s approach is probably my favorite and most memorable area of the game.
@@kyubeyz_7062 I agree with you on that. Like every new thing in the game would’ve of happened if it wasn’t for Ganon basically. I just wish he could’ve actually came to the surface a few times and maybe we could’ve had like a re happening of the imprisoning war with link and the citizens of Hyrule fighting, and Ganons last ditch is to go underground where the final battle regular begins.
@@Owen133 yeah it’s like they don’t know how to full incorporate a story especially in these type of Zelda games. They just go for the easy route and make out of order cutscenes. It would’ve been great if you could’ve interacted better with some of the main characters in the real world instead of them being stuck in the past. They just seem to go with the easier options
I dunno, it feels pretty obvious to me that the same kind of storytelling as the classic games wouldn't work in a game where you can go anywhere anytime. There are certainly other ways to do it than memories, but it's just something we're gonna have to wait for and see. I also mostly disagree with the point on Ganondorf since not only did he summon nearly every monster in Hyrule, he appears constantly in the form of Puppet Zelda to spread his influence while his body heals underground, and I think that's such a cool concept. I just don't like how inconsistent Puppet Zelda's writing is.
It's not a case of "Zelda cycle" here. The hype for TOTK died down pretty quickly when people started playing it and realized that it's a kind of "soft reboot". Nintendo decided that things from the previous game had magically disappeared (according to the devs themselves), and basically created the same experience again, without building anything significant on top of the previous game (by the way, it's the player's responsibility to build things in the game).
I've seen a lot of people claim that this was a "switch up" in perception, but in my experience I just don't think it works. I was enamored with this game in the first few days of playing it, forcing myself to dig deep and find the limits of the ultrahand mechanic was extremely fun. But once I did that for a while, I saw no reason to really do that on the same level anymore beyond basic solutions. Unfortunately, it was then that I also realized that was kind of the entire focus of development, so I was then left with nothing to do but fly over the same areas I'd seen before and do shrines that can almost all be completely cheesed for a reward that straight up makes the game more boring in my opinion. Beyond a very select few there were no in depth side stories to engage with that amounted to more than just simple tool tips, and both areas of the map that were new very quickly became repetitive and lame. On top of all of that, I had the best weapons and had killed the same like 4 or 5 overworld boss types multiple times, and I realized... why even continue looting bokoblin camps at this point? All it would do is either waste resources or just leave me evened out on them. So yeah, no cool quests, no interesting castles or man made structures to work through beyond the small hand full of what I thought were almost all under cooked dungeons, no reason to fight anymore enemies because the variety is sparse and the rewards would not be worth it, no variety in content, so I'm just forced to arbitrarily chase shrines and light roots to "check off the list." And, like I said, I just don't find skipping over the solutions fun or the reward meaningful enough, and because it's just doing this there's no build up or iconic moments of progression. With the luster of ultrahand gone it was just a huge world that I'd already explored with a really small amount of what I'd consider meaningful content inside it. All of this is before I even mention what I thought of the story, but I digress. The main point here is that yeah, on week one I was having a lot of fun with the game. But as it's supposedly a 300 hour experience, am I wrong for that opinion changing past the 30 or 40 hour mark? People can deflect and claim that we are only saying this because "Zelda Cycle" or whatever horseshit that has been made up for the past 20 years, but I just don't think that's a genuine and real argument. With that said, people can have their own views on the game: if you like the game, that's perfectly fine and there are definitely things to like about it. But listening to common criticisms on similar points of contention like the lack of continuity, the reuse of the world map, the poor dungeons, the story that a lot of people think is laughably bad, etc, and then having no better rebuttal than "nah bro, that's just the Zelda cycle, happens all the time, these people don't know what they want and are really entitled" just seems so disconnected with the idea that some people have opposing views. It is essentially a get out of jail free card that sees you exit the conversation so you don't have to engage in critical discussion yourself. Anyway, blah blah blah, all I'm saying is this: the perception that things like this follow some kind of cycle is meaningless to actual discussion of the topic. There are people that genuinely believe what they're saying, and had their views shift in real time as they played the game. It isn't so black and white that enjoying the first section of a game means it's impossible to go on to dislike the last 75 percent of the experience, and that's true for anything.
@@Cheesehead302 Well said. I also liked Ultrahand at first, and it was nice to try out the game's tutorial, but I realized there was something very wrong with the game as soon as I got off that first tutorial island and I realized that probably the best part of the experience had already been left behind, just like BOTW, but now it's even more critical because it's the same world, with the same enemies, the same weapons and movesets for Link, damn, it was painful to realize how derivative the game is from BOTW and how quickly it becomes a monotonous and repetitive checklist completion. In fact, thinking about it now, the first island was the best part of the experience for me because it was all designed to take advantage of the Ultrahand and show the player how to use it to increase their interaction with the environment, but as soon as the tutorial is over, you're back in the old world of BOTW, which was NOT designed for the Ultrahand. It's a design decision that doesn't make any sense. Then someone might argue: "they needed to keep the same world because it's a direct sequel to the previous game", but then you play the damn game, and it's a soft reboot that barely acknowledges what happened in the first game and only had a few key things explained later in interviews by the devs, so they could have basically made another world without any negative consequences for the story. And what's worse: it's not as if there's no new terrain, there's all the Dephts, but it's basically procedurally generated terrain that makes use of cheap stimuli for the player to use some vehicles, instead of being something carefully designated like the first island. And as you well said, all these unbelievable problems that turned a game with potential into something extremely monotonous and bureaucratic will be totally ignored because people use terms like "Zelda cycle", which by the way says nothing about the game itself, it's a term that says more about the fan base.
@@jpa3974 To focus on one thing you said, I'd argue there's a reason the tutorial area is probably the best part of the game; it realizes that there is benefit to having some intentional design instead of being completely freely exploration. At that point you probably haven't gotten used to how broken Ultrahand is yet, which also makes you feel more restrained. Besides the world map reuse, it really is that simple for me in terms making the next game a winner: stop claiming that open design is unfailable and that intentional design is worthless, and you can make a more sensible blending of the two. Instead of giving access to LITTERALLY everything from the start, make the player work for access to different parts of the game. Have them gain new equipment or key progression items. In Elden Ring, just because there are a few things you need to find or do to proceed in certain areas does not mean that you are completely stripped of having self driven exploration in open environment. No, even though you can't access absolutely everything immediately, there are still at any given time massive environments to explore, way more area themes with their own unique enemies and lore implications, structured linear enemy fortresses, and unique stuff to find. And when you finally are ready to progress further into those areas with progression requirements, it becomes something that is incredibly satisfying to unlock and discover, as now that world that was already massive has just become even bigger at the next turn. And it's all because the game rewards you for over coming something, you know, like a video game is supposed to. This discussion could go on for eternity if I let it, but beyond the really obvious derivitiveness of Tears of the Kingdom, this is the main thing they have to change their philosophy on. So many people were hopeful that this game would follow the trend of Nintendo appealing to fan demand (which I'd argue was one of the reason Botw was so huge for a lot of people) and we'd see a game with the best of both elements of the series: largely open structure with tightly designed dungeons, puzzles, and maybe even a solidly progressing story. But instead, they took things that were issues last time and doubled down on them, telling everybody that they don't care if it's something that strikes a better balance and improves on the formula, they just wanted something with a new gimmick.
@@nigeladams8321 As far as I know, the Zelda Cycle is the opinion that the new Zelda in the franchise is actually horrible, but when Nintendo releases another game, that Zelda considered horrible becomes the example of a good Zelda, while now the new one is horrible, and so on. It was the opposite with TOTK, people started off with endless hype, the game was considered a "masterpiece", but over time people started to get quite burned out with it and saw the game in a different light.
I hate people disregarding my criticism of the game by going "Zelda cycle" I have never once disliked a zelda game for ripping off another one, I have never hated a zelda game for having a badly written story that can spoil itself, I have never hated a zelda game for having two thirds of its content be trivial garbage. On top of all this they did NOT bring dungeons back. TOKT is a disapointment and it's not some magical cycle, it's just a very long game and it took a while to realise this was "it"
Okay hear me out: New zelda game world is BotW style, dungeons are traditional and (mostly) linear. Story is traditional style cause new story style SUCKS.
That's what most people hoped for with TOTW, it makes sense as a synthesis of both styles of games and it's not even that hard to do honestly. But Nintendo is nothing if not stubborn, for better or worse. I expect things to only start moving in the right direction after at least one or two more major games in that open-air style. The Zelda cycle will remain, but I don't think anyone will disagree that certain games like Skyward Sword or TOTK had less of a honeymoon-period and an overall stronger pushback. This will be even more pronounced with the 3r or 4th game in that new formula. It has its genius and great ideas, but people are getting tired of it very quickly.
Not only that but dungeons should need to be encountered in a set order, imagine going to a place where you feel like there's something more but you can't figure out how to uncover it, a place that you actually have a reason to come back to and you can't just do everything on the first visit. That kind of thing can happen if you discover a dungeon early
They could have had like 3 dungeons you could do in any order, after completing them a story cutscene plays showing the villain growing in power and maybe affecting the world in some way. Then out sprouts 5 more dungeons that are more challenging but can be completed in any order. Beat the 5, more story beats. Fight the big boss. The end. I don't understand the need for completing dungeons in any order you want but Link Between Worlds nailed it.
UA-camrs making up terms like ''Disappointing Masterpiece'' like they raised their expectations too much and are shocked when the game isn't pure perfection.
But they still give it 10/10 while stating it has problems. They did the same thing with BOTW, "the story wasn't great, the weapon system was bad, the combat and shrines got repetitive, it ran at 720p 30fps with frequent frame drops, it didn't have full voice acting, assets got reused to death, the divine beast dungeons were short, hollow and repetitive, the shrine music and aesthetic got repetitive, there may have been 700 too many Korok seeds, rewards seemed redundant as they were almost always disposable weapons but besides that 10/10 greatest game ever! Look a 10/10 masterpiece doesn't mean a perfect game! No game is perfect! Gosh.. just lower your expectations a bit. Jeez."
@@jimskim8568 Yeah, it was exciting to explore the world and try to get as much done, but it just got exhausting and there was no real reward to do it. I literally only finished one dungeon and I had enough.
I still think the game is incredible, also the motion controls at least aren’t forced on you. Then again, tears is the first Zelda game that I’ve really loved. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good story (I’m a big Dragon Quest fan), but freedom and exploration is something I need to some extent (hence why I hadn’t been into Zelda before). Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
As someone whose first Zelda game was Wind Waker, whose original favourite Zelda game was Twilight Princess, and who had played every 3D Zelda game before BotW came out, I really like the open air formula and hope that the Zelda team continues to improve it. My biggest issue with TotK (which I think is a wonderful game btw) wasn't that it was open air but that it reused the map from BotW which made exploration not as fresh (although the caves were fantastic). Had the game taken place entirely within the sky (and by extension had more sky islands) or in a new land, I would probably have almost zero issues with it. I would hate to see the Zelda team drop or entirely change the open air Zelda formula akin to what BotW did with the traditional 3D Zelda formula when we're only two games into it as opposed to five. The open air formula is not what made TotK feel stagnating, it's that it reused the world of BotW which made it feel stagnating
Don’t play totk like botw, and you’ll have a lot more fun. Quick summary: Breath of the wild was about exploring and conquering the wild, tears of the kingdom is about mastering it. You know this place, make sure this place knows you. It’s that simple, give it a try.
@@minecrafter3448 I also tried to avoid playing TotK as if it was BotW. I focused much more on exploring the sky islands and the depths, and I travelled across Hyrule mostly through the sky rather than on foot or with a horse. I even decided to keep the Archaic set for most of the game so that I didn't have to wear clothes from BotW, which also made the game more difficult since you can't upgrade that armor set. Even so, I still wasn't the hugest fan of the reused Hyrule whenever I would need to return to the land for materials or do the story. Especially since the four story dungeons of TotK are in the same areas as BotW, so a lot of the story progression by default would feel like BotW
@@HMMadsen “I focused much more on exploring-“ That’s all I needed to hear, you played tears of the kingdom like it was breath of the wild. Nintendo warned you 2 years in advance and you still couldn’t prepare yourself to play it like a new game?
@@minecrafter3448 I played TotK like I would play any new Zelda game. Exploration is a core aspect of every Zelda game and not just BotW, so of course I would explore. Exploration is also a core aspect of playing TotK and something Nintendo expects you to do in the game with all the new sky islands, the depths, the caves and wells, the new shrine placements etc. Not only that, but it was the developers intention for players to reexplore Hyrule set years after BotW to see what changed over those years. If exploration was not something you should do in TotK, then all of these new and changed areas would be completely unnecessary. Just because its a new Zelda game doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't explore in set game, given that exploration not only is a fundamental aspect of every mainline Zelda game ever made but also TotK
It’s not just a cycle on Zelda. It’s in pretty much every gaming franchise. The Pokémon fandom is particularly infamous. Remember how when Scarlet & Violet released, it was canned for its glitches and Sword & Shield was cut some slack DESPITE them being hated shortly after they released back in 2018? It even extends way back to Pokemon Gen V; which myself and others initially found boring, but now is well-loved
Idk both are terrible to me looking back but at least I had some fun doing SV while in SS I felt empty during my whole playthrough. SV at least tried new things while SS is the Pokemon formula at its most boring, hollow form.
It's the people who dislike it being more vocal while the supporters enjoy the game or the people who like it smothering the situation with hype while the detractors move on. Then the other side plus people in the middle actually notice the side that was active but overshadowed. Often they're justified, sometimes they're not.
This cycle sh¡t is f$cked. People talk mad smack about a game when we play it as a kid, continually being negative about it, then they wanna pretend like they're some kinda posh genius for saying "the game is actually good and the new new game is bad and evil". It's honestly an exhausting thing to see unfold.
@@cyberlinkx5290 I mean, at Scarlet and Violet introduced a bunch of cool Pokémon, had a good story, and made a bunch of fun characters. What did Sword and Shield have besides Peony?
True people were saying like "this is nothing like zelda its baby game" years later this was my childhood game and i loved it people just be hating for clout.
TOTK is basically a bigger and better version of BOTW, expanding from the ground to the skies and depths, and taking just about everything from BOTW and improving/building upon it (gameplay wise at least)
I wouldn’t say better tbh, I had more fun at first but some of the issues (especially with the menus being even worse and slower now) brings it down heavy. (Don’t even get me started on the disappointment of an empty depths map and not enough to do in the skies)
Sometimes I think I'm currently the only person who still loves and enjoys the game 🥲 Perhaps I'm a little biased, because my experience with it was so special... Not only the game but also some great changes in my life when it came out and the game will always be a part of this! But it also took what I loved about BotW and made it even better... Just hits my sweet spot I guess 😅 I see the flaws and I understand why some people dislike/hate about it. But my experience was different, I had so much fun and had this childlike joy and excitement that I haven't had in ages! Don't know why, it just happened... But: Some things really need to be changed for the next game, they can't do this a third time... And I'd love to have some elements of the "classic" Zelda formula back (dungeons with dungeon items, map, compass, small keys and the boss key for example). I hope they can find a perfect balance between both old and new 🤩
@@Delulula Yeah, I know... But in the last few months it seemed as if every new video (and the comments below) about this game was "it sucks"/"it's bad"/"disappointing"/(...) 🙆🏼♀️ Probably because the people who love it just said it once after their first playthrough and then never again 😅
@@JTtheOctoling true they just copy the "videogame sucks and thats why,dont buy to loose money" type video and they litteraly dont know what they talking about and are just coping what the other guys is saying like parrots
I wonder how much the sales of the Zelda series has to do with the consoles. Nintendo home consoles were successively declining in sales every since the Super Nintendo, until the Switch became one of the best selling consoles of all time. The Wii was the outlier, but most of that console's sales came from casuals that were not really into games. Most people who had a Wii were not really interested in stuff beyond Wii Sports, Wii Fit, etc. I can guarantee this because I remember when I was a kid we went to a hotel that had a game room with a bunch of Wiis set up with Mario Party on them. I imagine a huge percentage of the Wii's sales were for stuff like this. Also, Skyward Sword's sales was likely severly harmed from being one of the few Wii games to require the Wii Motion Plus.
I think you're correct. OOT is an exception since it sold very well for a N64 game. MM came out around same time as the PS2. The gamecube sold even worse so WW came up short. TP sold well because it was the game many fans desired and the Wii wasn't known as the casual console yet. 2d Zelda usually doesnt sell as well as the 3d games. WiiU bombed and we ended up with the Switch that found a middle ground between casual and dedicated gamers. I think if we got a traditional 3D Zelda over BOTW, that didn't hold your hand and didn't stick to the tropes (Ganon, Master Sword, Hyrule etc.), it would have been a bestseller in the franchise. Although not a runaway success like BOTW. They could have at least saved this for a 2d game then.
imo wind waker was a outlier of cycle because right from the bat it was being shitted on as Celda and has slowly gained appriciation over time. Twilight princess was basically a response to Wind Wakers pre and post launch and only after twilight princess did the script start flipping.
@@sillydude189I would say it kinda makes sense for the master sword to run out of energy since in almost every Zelda game before botw and tears the master sword is always depicted as being out back to rest after the events have unfolded and the credits rolled but even the unfinished wind waker master sword crushes the tears master sword by just not running out of energy even when it’s absolutely not at full power
TotK is a great VIDEOGAME BotW is a beautiful EXPERIENCE Playing TotK and it's mechanics I feel that I'm playing a game but when I play BotW is like I'm living an adventure, even both of them being videogames I have this feeling playing the original
Hot take (disclaimer im a huge zelda fan): BotW is a kinda empty game and stuff breaking all the time and the only reason it won goty is cause there was no competition that year
More people need to come to this realization. BOTW and TOTK is nothing more than giving children candy for breakfast and dinner. There's little depth to it and virtually no meaning, nothing to chew on or extract value from outside of dopamine and fun for a few hours. Majora's Mask made you think. Twilight Princess made you think. BOTW & TOTK just said, hey you can flip the table to solve all the puzzles. Vapid and shallow excuse for a game. Very pretty though.
@@KyngD469BOTW/TOTK are far better games than WW/TP/SS, the only 3d zelda games that can pull up a fight in terms of video game quality are the Zelda 64s, the others don't even come close to them
@@KevZ7. This is some 1st grade, top tier, designer, premium, limited edition, collector's edition delulu right here. There aren't even 2 songs between TOTK and BOTW that anyone can remember, that arent also just renditions of previous tracks in the series. Maybe they should ultra-hand together a better game.
@@KyngD469 We're talking about video games, not the discography of two artists, from a video game standpoint they're indeed far better games, Nintendo has remembered how to make games like in the 64 era and stopped the mess the Wii era was
the fanbase has a serious no true scotsman problem. repeatedly falling into media hype and then completely changing your opinion at the same time everyone else does is only a thing for people that have a hard time forming opinions of their own. also, bashing universal specialised acclaim as if gaming journalists are always lying to the public is not the flex some people think it is.
There is nothing breath of the wild had to offer that tears of the kingdom can’t do better. The quality of life features are too much to ignore, unless of course you didn’t give totk a fair chance
@@PixelPikmin I do this for entertainment in case you couldn’t tell. I argue with idiots, idiots team up with each other and repeat the same brainrot on loop, I keep responding until they just stop bothering and shut up, and then I find a new idiot to repeat the process. Sometimes I have a civil discussion, you’re one of the good ones. (I think, if I remember you correctly) But most of the time I argue with the most childish “people” to ever grace this rock.
Honestly it's not even that hard to make something that blends better the old formula with the new one. Just throw more traditional dungeons mixed wirh the new dungeons, it's not that hard to make the game have a few dungeons that can be progressed in several different ways and have puzzles that uses the game's gimmicks in a way that is more complex than the stuff you see in the game's tutorial Then make the side quests have engaging characters and storylines with proper rewards even if they are just making a random NPC achieve something nice, MM did this greatly, also make the map have random mini dungeons and etc. Put random minigames that make you get something and interact more with the world, i'm not a fan of fishing in games but it's extremely weird how the newer Zelda games doesn't have them considering that this was one of the series tradition and a thing you can see even on games like Nier Automata. I liked BOTW but TOTK barely felt like a new game and more of a glorified DLC with a wacky G-Mod mechanic so people could build stupid stuff and share on social media and the next game really needs to improve a lot on this formula.
I think that recall was definitely more game breaking then building in tears, and hopefully they bring a little more of what we love if we do get stuck with another open air game
there was no cycle lol. people said the game was disappointing in many aspects from day 1, actually before day 1 since it leaked 2 weeks early and people were talking on forums, reacting to live streams with disappointment. this is what happens when you surround yourself in positive echo chambers, you make up scenarios
TOTK was the highest rated video game of all time on opencritic when it released and even now, after a full year, it's settled at number 4, only beaten by Baldur's Gate 3, BOTW and Mario Odyssey. That's not a positive echo chamber, that's near unanimous agreement from fans and critics alike that the game is excellent. The people who say that the game is bad or disappointing are and always have been the minority, no matter how loud they become.
@@Ted_Curtis Yeah just like the vast majority of people like fast food and eat candy for dinner. That doesn't make it good, it just means they are mindless consumers. Im willing to wager the vast majority of people didnt even finish TOTK, because nothing felt rewarding enough when you can just craft an air bike and break every puzzle.
@@KyngD469 Enjoying a piece of media that the vast majority of people say is good doesn't make you a mindless consumer, neither does disagreeing with them make you any smarter. It's alright if you didn't enjoy the game but to say that the only reason anyone would is because they're either stupid or didn’t actually play it is a very short sighted and arrogant way to view anything.
@@Ted_Curtispeople consume incredibly stupid content. Look at the current state of music. Just because something's popular and just because people say it's good doesn't make it true.
I think a lot of people wanted that magical experience of discovery from playing BotW for the first time with TotK. But if you played BotW you are not going to get that feeling because it’s a game that builds on the last one with the same world and base mechanics. But personally, while playing I was able to separate my nostalgia and think if I had played TotK first, how would I feel. I’d still have that sense of discovery and the new mechanics, the added content, etc. would have blown me away even more than BotW. It’s actually created a problem where I’m not sure if I can go back to BotW when TotK exists. It’s BotW but does almost everything better and then some.
I played TOTK first and can tell you as 1st time experience with Open World Zelda, it's just so much worth it. Of course BOTW is still really, really fun, but I'd give it a 8/10 while TOTK is a 8.5/10, story could have been better.
mmmh i can't remember nobody complain about Twilight Princess or A Link beetween world. Maybe it's because the criticisms are real and people are free to talk about them only after the hype is over so they don't get insulted all the time? I've played all the Zelda games, this was truly the first one that disappointed me so much that it pushed me to talk about it online. at the beginning I was insulted badly but as time went by it softened up. And I don't think the next game will change my mind about totk anyway. I don't think so because considering the direction the series has taken, it's already a big deal if there won't be procedural dungeons in the next Zelda.
I don't remember any complaints about A Link Between Worlds, but Twilight Princess definitely did receive quite a lot of complaints especially before Skyward Sword came out. A few that I can think of at the top of my head were that its visuals were ugly and dull (especially because of the gloom in the GCN and Wii versions), that it was the easiest Zelda game, that it was an Ocarina of Time clone, that the Wolf Link sections were terrible and killed the game's pacing (especially with the Tears of Light quests), and that the game was quite handholdy. By the time I entered the Zelda fandom, Twilight Princess was considered by many to be the worst Zelda game (or at least the worst 3D Zelda game)
This mostly applies to 3d Zelda, and people absolutely complained about twilight princess. It was proclaimed edgy and unoriginal right up until around the “breath of the wild is overrated” era.
Calling these THINGS “criticisms” is an insult not even game critics deserve. It’s unfounded whiny noise backed up by nothing but a whole lot of ego. Not a single totk hater has ever considered anything beyond their imaginary little reality that the game is bad. If they did, they would of course come to the conclusion that the game is actually quite good. I’ve seen people unironically try to argue “story sucks so 4/10 game” I’m not going to try to argue about how good the story is, since I haven’t researched what makes a good story and can’t make a fair substantiated claim about how whether the story is actually bad. However, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt, after analyzing it from every angle, that a bad story means almost nothing. This comment has gotten long so reply if you feel like arguing over that.
@@minecrafter3448 you're joking, right? the story is the least of totk's problems. We are talking about a game that introduces 2 of the ugliest maps I have ever seen in an open world (the sky, made of empty islets, visually all the same and copy-pasted, and the depths: a desert with a single biome that has no nothing interesting or unique other than the first 10 minutes you get into it), throughout this recycles the same map from the previous game. everything feels like it has already been seen, like shrines or caves. Not to mention the dungeons, which do not present unique rewards or unique enemies, have no structural complexity and are just a bunch of puzzles concentrated in the same place. (put bokoblins on a boat and call them pirates? and you have the nerve to sell me this stuff for 70 dollars?) A variety of enemies that I would define as embarrassing. In my game I found 4 stonetalus crowded in the same area. And I honestly don't understand how anyone can claim a miracle with this game. they did nothing but add crafting to botw, effectively making it a very common open world. I've never had to hoard materials to break rocks in a zelda and I don't want to. And then finally the story: tell me what is the difference between watching videos in the game or watching them on youtube? they have no effect on the game world and are only passive. You go to one place, press play and then go back to playing as if nothing had happened. It's perhaps one of the worst narrative systems I've ever seen in a video game. The ultrahand allows you to build many different vehicles but none of them have any real use, they only serve to waste time. The combat system is broken and has not been improved by botw. Everything about this that isn't physics is mediocre and feels unfinished. I can't go into detail about every point. but it really has a lot of problems. Above all generated by the name it bears
@@ShadowWizard224 Even BotW's memories didn't do it for me. The memories are completely disconnected from the game world and feel more like an optional collectable.
All they need to do is segment the progression like they used to do, the "metroidvania" style progression Zelda basically pioneered. Start by having the dungeons be a Requirement again. The fact they are optional undermines the experience significantly by having the entire game be optional content if there is virtually nothing that builds up to the finale. Then, don´t give us all of the abilities at the start. Either give them within the dungeons and build the entire dungeon around that ability, or hide the abilities in the world like ALTTP, and have them be required to enter and beat the dungeons. Hell, have Climbing be an unlockable ability too. That would make the player feel an insane sense of reward, just like obtaining the Paraglider. Basically, go back to Zelda 1, where the Triforce pieces were mandatory to enter the final boss, and some of the dungeons required the items from other dungeons. That has been an integral part of Zelda since the NES Zelda all the way to Skyward Sword. Its ironic I even have to say "go back to Zelda 1", since that's what they did for BOTW, and yet they missed one of its more integral parts. This design philosophy of having certain areas and things unreachable or innacessible until you obtain the means to do so incentivises exploration and created anticipation and reward. Its why Metroidvanias are so beloved. Better progression would result in a better experience, and a better story structure. It's a win all around.
I don't understand the need for completing stuff in any order you want but Link Between Worlds did it pretty well without compromising what makes a fun Zelda game. Have major story beats happen after beating x amount of dungeons.
I hope they put both of the formulas together next time. Open world, linear story and traditional dungeons (return dungeon items too). I'd also like to see a more in depth combat system, maybe even return the magic meter
Breath of the wild had flaws and we all hoped that nintendo would make a new iteration of it that fixed those flaws. A better designed smaller world that was a lot less montonous with something resembling a linear structure. Instead they pushed harder and doubled down on what made breath of the wild great and bad. The cost of the mechanical richness of the world and all the crazy things that came with it was the narrative, the level design and the gameplay. So we had high highs and low lows with this one. But seeing as how nintendo seems to have achieved what they've been wanting to, a dynamic world focused on organic discoverable interactions with many things to learn, now defintely seems the time to improve on the flaws we've had with the format for so long. And it seems echoes of wisdom may be exactly what that is.
The second half of the first paragraph is possibly the most pathetic and shameless “I want an ocarina of time remake disguised as a new game” plea I’ve ever seen. You don’t want anything remotely similar to breath of the wild, don’t pretend you do.
to me it seems like nintendo thinks what fixates people on the new zelda formula is the sandbox aspect, and twice in a row now have they thrown away making a polished exploration experience in favor on some crazy sandbox mechanic. All i want is for them to take the open world formula and fix its issues, and create an open world with great storytelling, and amazing unique stuff to find all throughout the world. That is why people loved botw, and their criticisms stemmed from the issues with the content, or lack thereof, in the world itself. But instead, they seem to think the fans are captivated by the sandbox stuff, which for me at least (and from what ive gathered many others) is just not the case.
The sandbox mechanic... well in all honesty part of what botw so enchanting in the first place was how mechanical the world was. Temperature systems, physics systems, the way your abilities could organically interact with the world, grass could be set on fire, trees could be cut. Tears of the kingdom doubled down on this and to be honest, if you go into the game purely just to experiment with the sandbox elements to find the limits of the system it's a pretty fun and rewarding time as you teach yourself things. The game has MANY shortcomings but the sandbox elements carries it by a sizable amount. The issue is that it's intrinsic, and players who actively play to mess with it have more fun rather than players who stick to the korok shrine enemy camp grind. Though will say it is my hope that we've reached the pinnacle of sandbox gameplay, so that future titles will instead try to rework the organic sandbox into something more structured with better narratives, level design, stories and combat. TOTK is a rough diamond and they just need to polish and cut it into something better.
This was not the cycle for windwaker. It was considered not god from the get and then a console generation or so later it go love for how it visually aged?
A good model would be a hybrid model like GTA: You have to advance the story to open up certain areas. Another thing that would help are optional dungeons that are smaller but still open but also have shrines available. The required dungeons would only be accessible when certain conditions are met.
I think it's just disappointing as a follow-up? BOTW had some lore hinted/unexplained that felt like it's been either dropped, or at least ignored for the approach TOTK went for.
Here is my analogy of TOTK I give you a plate of super delicious food that is so Amazing that you gobble down the WHOLE pile of food as fast as you can and beg for more. That was Breath of the Wild. Since you want more SOOOOO badly, and you're jumping up and down and hollering for more, I Then make another whole pot of that same food, but this time I add some extra spices to give it a little more flavor. When it's done, I put TWICE AS MUCH OF IT on your plate as what you had the last time!!! Then you start eating this food, and YES it is Better than before, and about 1/3 of the way through this pile of food, you are full. You just cannot eat anymore, but its SO good that you still want more. BUT, you keep eating and eating and eating because you want to eat all this deliciousness. It's just obligatory to finish! So, you save it for later and eat more for the next meal, and then the next, and then the next...it's still delicious! But after a few days of eating the same leftovers, you suddenly realize you are repulsed, cannot eat another bite, and never want to see that food ever again. THAT is what happened to all of us. Outside of the basic story, TOTK is impossible for most people to finish, but we all kept trying anyway.
Keeping the food analogy going, as someone who hated Botw the other Zelda games all felt like delicious, well sized meals that didn't overstay their welcome. Botw felt like a spa pool filled with spaghetti with one small bowl of pasta sauce and meatballs mixed in. So much bland, boring nothingness for hours on end searching for anything substantive. Totk feels like that same spa pool of spaghetti but now it's 6 years old with a bit of fresh parmesan sprinkled on top.
@@Roflcrabs Other than the Seasons games, I hated every single Zelda game that was for the DS or the 3DS. Remakes included. I think handheld game is just not for me. I hate playing the Switch without being connected to the TV.
I have never once changed my opinion on the games long after. BotW and ToTK ai didnt like from the start. The second game even more so. Zelda died after 2013
@@Mangapan Yeah, this has nothing to do with “the Zelda cycle.” It has to do with the fact they took six years to re-release the same exact game again for ten dollars more.
@@7milesdavishow is it the same game? Even the main map shared between it and breath of the wild isnt the same with plenty of areas being completely changed by The fallout of the falling sky Islands and several years between games. Two games being in the same engine and having similar maps doesn't make them the same game, not if you're looking at anything past surface level
@@nigeladams8321yeah right people be saying same map same game same mechanics like bruh did you play botw again confused it was totk idk what people be talking about
For me the “Zelda Cycle” is basically the Zelda series version of the “it’s made for kids” excuse that people use to justify a game/movie’s criticism. There are some cases of it actually being a thing but for the most part it just feels like an excuse. I don’t hate the game, just find it pretty flawed. It would be like a 5/10 or maybe a light 6/10 for me. If you like the game, more power to you 👍
Tears was the best bad game I’ve played. Had fun but came out disappointed, Played 80-100 hours, but I don’t ever want to play it again, and don’t really think about it except when I’m reminded. Which signals to me it wasn’t worth all that time, I’ve played life changing games that I think about almost daily that are ten or less hours.
exactly my experience. the only thing i remember is climbing and diving to the sky temple, and diving into the volcano, and diving to the last ganondorf fight.
@@Regigigas_YT you must not understand that people can fall for the hype of the trailers, pre-order the game, then when the game finally releases, we experience the truth of its mediocrity. I let the final trailer fool me into thinking this was gonna be game of the decade, but once I actually PLAYED it, it was a different story. It's no different from looking at a menu at a restaurant, seeing a picture of a meal that looks potentially good, and ordering that meal---but once you get the meal & taste it, you realize it tastes like cardboard.
@@Regigigas_YT I bought iy cuz they sold me with the sky stuff, but that was really terrible, and almost all of it. Breath of the wild had a better purpose, I was expecting answers on this game, which there wasn’t
my biggest issues are: - most fusion weapons and shields are ugly af. they only work for their mechanics; there should be a good balance of aesthetic and mechanic. - it completely butchers the lore that every other game in the series worked incredibly hard to build. Might as well have just started a completely new series. - repetitive gameplay; The bane of interest in a game - dungeons are incredibly bland(in botw as well). One of the things that i found incredibly charming about the “classic” games (like oot, mm, etc.) were the unique visuals, soundtracks, and bosses in each dungeon. the more modern games… really lack that kind of difference.
I've seen people say that the open air formula has already gotten more stale than the classic formula ever did. 2 games over 6 years vs more than 10 games in over 20 years? This fandom has some truly insane people.
Because the classic formula still allowed for innovations. OoT, MM, TP, and WW all follow the exact same formula but with the exception of OoT and MM all of them are completely different barring the basic structure of the game. BotW and ToTK are pretty much just the exact same game. And ToTK was 70 dollars… despite not being worth that much at all. Should have been 40 to maybe 50 dollars at most.
Such a narrow point of view. Each traditional 3D Zelda has a good, unique story. They have interesting distinct characters. They have amazing dungeons and different items that help you progress as the main character. Progression, tight design, good characters, and good stories are harder to get tired of than a game where it's strongest point is exploration, especially when that exploration exhausts itself 2 hours into the game. (Most likely after playing for 2 hours you won't really see much of anything new.)
This is the humble opinion of someone who has only played BOTW, TOTK, WW (didn’t finish it), and TP (didn’t go far). Classic-style Zelda games have never captured my heart, so when I heard BOTW was going in a different direction I was intrigued. When I played BOTW, I loved it. I thought it was the best game ever made, and to a certain extent I still think it is. Sure, it has many, many flaws, but it was revolutionary and it tried a lot of things. It succeeded in some, it failed in others… but most importantly, it laid the foundations for a great sequel which could’ve been the true best game ever made, at least for me. What killed TOTK wasn’t the game itself, it was the duty it had. TOTK is at the same time both a completely different experience, and the same exact game. But what’s worse is that it didn’t build on BOTW’s excellent foundation. It disregarded BOTW in all ways possible. Qualitatively speaking, TOTK is just as good (or bad) as BOTW, with some improvements here and there, and some downgrades here and there. However, as a _sequel_ , it doesn’t do anything. I think this is the reason many “TOTK haters”, including me, are coming out. We have enjoyed the game, we have replayed BOTW, and we realised that the games have no connection whatsoever. This doesn’t mean that TOTK is objectively _bad_ (although it’s not all that good either), but because it wasn’t a revolutionary game, and it had the chance of learning from BOTW’s mistakes, we can’t use the same excuses that work with BOTW. Anyway, this was my 50c, peace.
As a long time Zelda fan I don't consider Botw/Totk Zelda games. They're too dumbed down especially in the puzzles and difficulty and the content is too watered down and repetitive. You should try finishing one of the older Zelda games, they're more challenging and constantly throw new content at you rather than patronizingly patting you on the head with menial rewards for solving the most mindlessly easy puzzles that half the time involve putting balls in holes like some kind of lab rat trying to get the cheese at the end of a maze. Twilight Princess is probably the most palatable being a newer entry, Wind Waker is good but can be pretty slow. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask are S tier imo but admittedly it's hard for people to appreciate them retroactively but once you adjust to the pace they're amazing. All good games though, you just gotta be patient with them. They aren't going to shower you with pointless rewards like korok seeds and disposable weapons with this constant positive feedback loop. If you venture off in any direction in Botw/Totk and you'll just find moblins, bokoblins, lizalfos and a mindlessly easy shrine puzzle, do the same thing in those older games you'll actually be met with something new. The games are smaller but they don't waste your time. The content in Botw/Totk is genuinely less than those older games, they just copy paste the hell out of every asset in the game creating the illusion of content. They're both 20 hour games padded out into 60+ hour games. Aimlessly running across a lifeless barren map isn't content, it's just wasted time.
@@Roflcrabsabout lab rat thing they did it in the old games too you would've found some strage secret thinking ohh heart piece istead it was a freking rupee
I've said this before, but TotK felt like I was looking for something new, and constantly being confronted with sameness (koroks, shrines, story structure, dungeon terminals, dumb sign guys, etc.). It really made me doubt this new direction with the way puzzles became obstacles. Interacting with the fragile weapons also made me wonder how thought out the weapon stats were, because whether you create something weak or strong, it doesn't matter because it'll be destroyed in a few swings. The disposable aspect of everything (including builds) and the endless quantity of junk of you can carry is unappealing to me. I find it baffling that anyone would not understand the value of limitations, but I guess it's probably easier for devs to have almost everything free of curation since they don't need to worry about progression like they used to.
I was doing a marathon of all 3D Zelda’s on switch recently, and I just couldn’t play Totk again. Dropped it after like 4 hours. There felt like there was nothing to do in the overworld besides go to monster camps and beat up monsters or go unlock more light roots in the almost copy paste looking depths. The sky and depths in general lack content, with the reused Hyrule feeling like it has absolutely nothing new besides the wells. The story is once again told through memories, making the game feel less engaging. There feels like there’s no stakes. While Botw was a kingdom hanging on by a thread, with the calamity always looming over Hyrule Castle, Totk just has the castle floating just because, like it’s not even used for anything except a Phantom Ganon boss fight. The main objectives are just the same as Botw, going to the 4 corners of the world and helping their people with a specific problem that ends with a dungeon. The dungeons are barely improved from Botw, all feeling like 4-5 shrines put together, besides the lightning temple. The sage abilities are all very situational except Tulin’s. The ultra hand mechanic makes the game feel more like Minecraft than Zelda, and that’s from someone who still plays Minecraft. Totk had so much potential, I mean the sky’s above AND the depths below Hyrule? But this game feels more like a Botw mod with Minecraft mechanics and some bare bones new areas.
@@minecrafter3448 Have you... never played LoZ:TP or LoZ:SS? Both have extremely linear stories. As a fan of both games I specifically remember them being absolutely panned for being linear, younger me couldn't escape the negative opinions about them being linear. Gaslighting isn't a good look for ya.
@@minecrafter3448 it’s not linear at all. In botw, it made sense to find the memories out of order because you weren’t trying to figure out what happened in the past, you already know what happened. In tears, you can find a memory of someone dying who you’ve never even seen before. It’s so non-linear that it actively fails
I think the my biggest issue with tears is that there are too many balance issues. you spend way too much time exploring the depths, which are emptier than my soul, and not enough time exploring the majorly hyped sky islands. The hoverbike almost ruins the fun of building vehicles entirely, and fuse is only useful with materials. Attach a giant spike ball to a stick, whoop-dee-doo. +5 damage. Silver party hat? +30
It doesn't suck now it always sucked... It's just been covered up by deleting bad reviews on metacritic and also they either paid someone for fake good reviews (look at the amount of "I registered to write my first single review which is best game eva" reviews) or they were just saved by the fanboys or new players who never played Zelda before BotW ... When the game released there were also tons of "this game *****" threads on reddit... It not complete crap but at best a 7/10 if not only a 6/10...
The thing with the Zelda Cycle is that it won't apply to BotW/TotK. I guarantee you. The change was way too drastic. Unlike with Skyward Sword, which is still mostly traditional in terms of its design. TotK and BotW completely threw everything out the window. The Zelda Cycle only happens when people don't give a game a chance or get mad and quitting at the beginning of the game, but learning to love the game after actually giving it time. You could give BotW/TotK 300 hours and you effectively wouldn't be much farther than you were at the beginning of the game (you get all your tools at the very beginning of both after all).
"sucks now" Good one 😂. Here to waiting for the next open world zelda that be 100x better simply to having a fresh new hyrule and less copy and paste 🥂
I still don't much care for botw, or skyward sword. Twilight princess is better than OoT, but Majora's Mask is in another league, and can't be compared to anything else the series ever had to offer. Also link to the past is objectively more open than LoZ1.
I liked all the Zelda titles, including BotW, hate TotK with a burning passion 😊 it is awful! Hated it from the moment I finished it, which was 3 days after it came out, rushed to finish it, while trying to avoid aaaaaall of the game ignoring BotW and acting like BotW had never ever happened. What a joke of a game 🤦🏻♀️
The whole "zelda cycle" thing pisses me off because 1)its not unique to zelda at all And 2) its just used for fanboys to dismiss any criticism and refuse to belive that people can not like things
I feel the same way about how people will use the honeymoon phase to disregard any of the game's achievements and people's great feelings towards it, but ultimately it just comes down to the message being conveyed.
@@bagelenjoyer3437 Really? All the time I see people talk about fans of the game being blinded by hype and shilling for Nintendo, as well as highly over-exagerating how many people turned on it after the honeymoon phase.
Oh, it's real alright. I've seen it happen with LoZ:TP when I grew up with it. People talked mad smack about it back then, echoing the words of the worst Game Grump and every posh b4stard singin the idea of "non-linear > linear". Now, more posh people wanna pretend like they're geniuses for saying what me kin were saying back in the day.
I don’t think there’s any fatigue in the open air formula The problem was Totk reusing the same map There’s fatigue in exploring the same map in over 8 years. Totk is a great game imo but it would have been much better if it was an all new original map. Exploring botw’s hyrule for the first time was the main appeal of botw and that was the novelty that made the weaker dungeons or story more tolerable I love Totk either way it’s just that I kinda understand why people would hate it tbh
I don’t think the same map is the issue, it’s how it was used, or more accurately how it wasn’t. Almost nothing of note changed on the surface aside from Lookout Landing and Tarrey Town, and the things that did change were barely impactful. No towns changed significantly, Castle Town is still rubble for some reason, no new settlements popped up and no ruins were rebuilt. You’d think that Fort Hateno would be restored, or that Bolson/Hudson Construction would do more than make a schoolhouse and a racetrack in the six-ish years between the games, but the land is nearly the same as it was in BOTW. Not that they did nothing, but it was a missed opportunity and I’m sad they didn’t take a bit more time to develop the overworld a bit more
@@Rocco049 Totally agree. It was an unprecedented opportunity in my opinion. They saved untold amounts of development resources by reusing the map, they could've put that into populating with more meaningful stuff to set the game apart. Botw lacked most man made structures, so how about a ton of construction has taken place since last time? There a new monster fortresses and settlements instead of just pretty much, nature still overrunning everything. Idk, even though it just feels like there wasn't even much of an attempt to even change up the general themeing compared to the first game.
Nah I had fatigue 10 hours in. Running on flat green textures fighting the same copy pasted moblins bokoblins and lizalfos for 60+ hours isn't my idea of good content.
Aonuma's "I don't get why people want to go back to a kind of game with more limitations" is so baffling to me. Limitations are a fundamental necessity for any game. Turning on a god mode cheat might be fun for a bit but it gets boring as soon as the novelty wears off. Being completely open doesn't lend itself well to an engaging experience. The fact that he seems to not understand this is concerning...
I don't think open world is the problem. The problem is reusing the exact same ideas that have been used in previous games to the point of copy pasting.
@@anibalhyrulesantihero7021 reusing assets in games is fine to a point but Botw/Totk totally abused it. Whether you're on a snowy mountain or sunny beach you're fighting the same 3 enemies, moblins, bokoblins and lizalfos. There aren't any enemies unique to just one area and subsequently everywhere just feels the same. Totk is worse because it copy pastes enemies across games. "But Rafael, Majora's Mask copy pasted assets from Ocarina!" Yes and that game had an entirely new map and was made in 18 months, not 6 years..
Feel like if they make a hybrid concept, an open world with closed areas, like how Eldin Ring is. That would solve it’s problem cuz now you can have a sequential story and still have that feeling of freedom
Imo, the next Zelda game should have the philosophy of “balance”. Both sides have strengths and weaknesses, linear provides storytelling and great puzzle design whereas open world provides a sense of freedom and creativity. Whether that be an Elden ring approach where the world is open and dungeons linear. Or (and what I think is probably a better idea) expand on that freedom ALBW had but more open, tackle dungeons in any order, or sets of dungeons if that’s too difficult for puzzle creation. Bring rental items back (now for free!) and if you want that item permanently, clear the dungeon that holds it. Have some areas blocked off unless you have a certain item (no major places though, more-so stuff on the side like caves) Make puzzles have 2-3 solutions, not as limiting as 1 solution, but not game breaking and quality degrading as having like 20+ solutions to one puzzle. I could go on but other ppl have went into more detail about how this approach could work so I’ll leave it here to make sure this comment isn’t 2 pages long lol.
I think BOTW was a nice departure from the Zelda formula that could have been built upon, but instead of building on the things that were good about BOTW, Tears built on the things I saw as failings of BOTW and neglected its strengths
Tears of the kingdom builds on everything breath of the wild did. It’s unbiased, everything is corrected based on FAN critiques. Things fans had problems with were fixed. If what you didn’t like wasn’t fixed, you weren’t loud enough.
@@minecrafter3448 The dungeons, mediocre and repetitive rewards, enemy variety. These weren't fixed no matter what you say. Totk doesn't have good lore, story or atmosphere, botw does
@@prettyoriginalnameprettyor7506 I'm sick of people saying that TOTK has a bad story when it delivers some of the best narrative sequences in the entire series. The opening scene; the ascent to the Stormwind Ark; the first descent into the Depths; the lost Goron kingdom; the Ancient Waterworks; Mattison's goodbye; the assault on Gerudo town; the final memory; pulling the Master Sword; the Lost Woods; Phantom Ganon; Dragonhead Island; the Construct Factory; the descent through Hyrule castle chasm; the final boss and the finale. All of those moments easily eclipse the highest points of BOTW in lore, story and atmosphere and that's just off the top of my head.
Personally as a long time fan of Zelda that started with Ocarina of Time I absolutely disagree I absolutely loved Tears of the Kingdom for me Breath of the Wild was a disappointment do to the lack of anything unique in the game the world felt filled with reused ideas like all 4 divine beasts feeling like the same dungeon or all for bosses being blight ganons and all the weapons and items just being bland copy pasted assets that don't do anything interesting as well as the map lacking any depth at all but Tears of the Kingdom fixed all of these problems for me, the new dungeons are a lot more like the older zelda dungeons but introduced into the open air format now sure they could be better but they are far better then the divine beasts and and they fixed the weapon and item problem with the fuse mechanic so you can make your own unique puzzle solving tools and weapons and they fixed the map depth issue by adding caves, the sky map and the depths and the final boss fight with Demon King Ganon as well as the acquiring of the Master Sword was the absolute best in this game... Now sure overall I would say the story isn't as good as what came before it and the dungeons still have more room for improvement but in terms of gameplay mechanics and cinematics this might be the best so far in the series I never had this much pure fun with a Zelda game
I’m not sure why are you, personally making a video calling out the Zelda cycle when you literally admit yourself in your list that you think TOTK is a bottom tier game and the worst 3D Zelda like I guess I’m a little confused why you’re even acknowledging the cycle if you yourself the exact same way?
You imply that the open world formula has already gotten stale only two games in. Linear 3D Zelda needed 5 games to get to that, and we still haven't seen the full potential of the open world formula. TotK is the Majora's Mask of this type of Zelda having reused assets at the same console's last hurrah, imagine the next open world Zelda on the next big console with a new world twice as big as before with issues from TotK becoming obsolete.
I don't think the formula is stale, but the world is. A game all about exploration of the world requires new world. Otherwise it's replaying the same game and that changes gameplay style from exploration to efficiency, which is not supported well by TotK.
Yeah Majora's Mask was made in 19 months though and features a whole new world with new music, enemies, npcs. Totk felt like it was made in that same timeframe but had 6 years to cook.
@@Roflcrabs that's because game development takes longer in general for a console like Switch compared to N64 Don't bother reading the rest TotK technically still has all that in one way or another, the world isn't new new but the depths and the sky islands along with everything different on the surface is still note worthy. There's new music but it's few and far between, though most of the game is ambient anyway so it shouldn't matter much. There's a good amount of new enemies including new minibosses. There are a lot of new NPCs, of course they don't reach Majora's Mask quality but they're good for the type of game TotK is.
@@Roflcrabs pfft, be more positive dude. Is the game not fun or are you nitpicking problems to convince yourself it's not? (I get why it wouldn't be if you were constantly playing BotW right before it, though that's not intended)
I feel like chalking it up to “the Zelda cycle” is a bit disingenuous, like if some of the issues are only issues bc of the cycle. Nobody sane wants to completely go back to the traditional formula, but it’s not like this new one hasn’t gotten a bit stale-ish. I think part of why that’s the case is because we’ve had ~7 years and only two Zelda games have come out (no, HW doesn’t count, put your hand down!) this creates a situation where people have been eagerly waiting for “the next step” by playing botw over and over, and when totk came around and felt too similar is some aspects, some people were rightfully upset, thinking “we waited 7 years for this? It feels they put all their work into ultrahand” (which might actually be the case, that’s concerning tbh)
Seriously? You’re just going to pretend this isn’t the Zelda cycle? This is exactly what happens. Everyone loves it for a few months, nostalgics spark an unfounded hate trend, and everyone brings up completely invalid “criticisms” to drag down the game’s reputation. The result is a potentially endless cycle of propaganda, peer pressure, and mindless hate. The only things that have been found to stop it are ports to much later consoles and hate towards an even newer game that listened to the “criticisms” of the previous game. I’ll elaborate in the next reply because UA-cam likes to delete my comments. Don’t want to lose too much at once.
Ocarina of time of course started it. It’s the baseline, and people to this day pretend it’s a perfect game, in spite of how poorly it aged. Windwaker was a sort of warmup. It immediately split the community, though the people that loved it at first overwhelmed the haters. A while later, the supporters quoted down and the haters were louder than ever. The result is twilight princess. Twilight princess was unanimously loved at first, praised for being dark and a return to form, before being deemed edgy, unoriginal, and much later, (after the release of skyward sword) formulaic. Skyward sword released, and it tries to be as quirky and bright as possible. It uses motion controls in every possible way and uses much lighter tones. A few years later everyone hates it. The motion controls are restrictive and intrusive, and the linearity even more so. Breath of the wild comes along, everyone doubles down on this. A few years later, a small group of nostalgics begin to form a “breath of the wild is overrated” cult. This cult uses skyward sword hd to boost the public opinion on traditional Zelda, praising the linearity as a more refined experience than open world can provide. They also pretend that those awful stick controls are any better than the motion controls. This group gains traction. Tears of the kingdom releases. The nostalgics, after the overwhelming praise dies down around 5 months after the game releases of course, spark a hate trend. They make sure not to specify exactly why they hate the game so they can team up with the “70 dollar dlc” hate group. They ALWAYS make sure to cower behind the “it’s my opinion, and by unsubstantiated opinion is just as valid as your heavily researched and supported opinion” invincible shield. The two hate groups join, and make so much noise it creates a heavy amount of peer pressure, like smoking ads 70 years ago. If you aren’t hating the game, who are you? You aren’t a real Zelda fan, this game sucks. The cycle continues, and attention is brought to it by the game awards. Hate for the game peaks in December, shortly after it loses the game of the year award. It declines slightly afterward, and has been stagnant ever since. That is the tale of the Zelda cycle.
@@minecrafter3448 I’m not saying that the Zelda cycle isn’t present for this game, but I’m also not gonna sit here and let people say that it ALL because of the Zelda cycle. There are genuine criticisms to be had about the game such as, the lack of good storytelling, the unfinished state of the sky islands, the lack of more meaningful content in the depths besides dungeons, the dungeon design, the bland feel of exploring the near same world, puzzles being to easy because of zonai devices ( the argument of “just don’t use it” is generally flawed, people naturally choose the path of least resistance), etc.
@@pubertdefrog I’ve seen 3 valid criticisms of this game, they’re all fairly minor, and for one of them I am still the only one that has noticed it. The sage system was identified to be inefficient and clunky from the beginning. The memories are a problem not for the traditionally suspected reason but because the game doesn’t tell you the story is linear until after you get one of the memories. Finally, the hoverbike is a flaw because it mostly trivializes building anything else. For me I actually see that as only a positive, because it gives me a benchmark for building effective machines. If it’s better than the hoverbike, it’s a success. I’ve made 2 machines after around 10 hours of experimenting that are superior. However, I understand that most people don’t want to spend that long building a good vehicle. Anything else I have analyzed to death and found to be completely invalid.
@@minecrafter3448 ok, I’m glad the game was fun for you. Utilize the building mechanic to the fullest! But I’m noticing in your argument that you immediately say these criticisms I bring up are invalid, why is that? I’m curious what counter arguments you have.
I startred to have a gradual hate for this game as I kept playing more of it. It just sucks. The reusing of botw's map was the smoking gun that completely killed the game for me. Not many reasons to explore the map when the "changes", if you call them that, are so damn boring and minimal. Like oh wow, zoras domain's water is temporarily brown, so cool. The new areas like the sky islands and depths are so fucking boring too. Jesus the whole game was a complete slog to get through
Also felt like it insulted the player. "Oh wow, you defeated 5 lynals? OK, here's a reused dlc asset from the first game as your reward." Actually pathetic
Loved BotW, it’s also kinda nostalgic, but I played the tutorial section and loved it lol Only problems: -not enough sky -story kinda repetitive and you aren’t involved Still 10/10 to me, better mechanics than BotW but I do miss that lonely feel of the game. Wish there was a new surface but beggars can’t be choosers.
my opinion on totk is that if it had released instead of botw then it would be the best zelda ever. but because botw exists and already set many of the staples seen in totk, it kinda falls flat in many areas because we’ve seen it already
Story is bad, Fs with pre-established key lore aspects, absolutely shatters all the Master Sword's reputation, unga bunga buff Dorf with little to no ambition other than "me strongest there is" uninteresting, nearly everyone forgot who you were despite this game taking place a mere 4-6 years after Wild, Rauru existing is an insult, no Fi, no breaking of the Demise curse despite it being falsely hinted being the case what with all the Skyward Sword PR this game got (I distinctly remember Skyward Sword being advertised as heavily linked to TotK somehow which, again, is misleading as on Nintendo's part), no dog petting, no hookshot spiderman swinging with the physics being suuuuch a driving factor in these newer Zelda games, no underwater exploration instead a damp dark smelly overgrown cave can't see jack, COLLOSAL missed opportunity to hitch the princess with her handsome knight in shining armor, no stakes since Zelda's sacrifice was reversed giving the story little to no agency or consequence, Link as a protagonist felt nonexistent feels like everyone else was the star of the show not the guy who's saving all their 🫏s, no Link backstory before any of this went down aka no Arryl 2 or Granny 2 aka NOT WIND WAKER, didn't make cry like Twilight Princess, dungeons are STILL NOT dungeons (pulling a couple levers to open a door and then be treated with literally the same copy-paste cutscene at the very end with each champion? Yeah naw), sky islands hardly anything worth noting although they are pretty asf to look at, I was expecting a totally NEW revamped endgame super Saiyan master sword golden tier 4 legendary new hilt new everything but naw same with a scar and less powerful... As a game, sure, it's leagues above BotW but BotW will never be topped as a one-in-a-lifetime *experience* TotK was an overblown $70 DLC and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Mid.
Most of that is perfectly valid wants. But we were never breaking the Curse of Demise for one reason. It’s not a curse in the traditional sense, it’s a promise that evil will always exist and fight against the light. But yeah, Fi not afraid least showing up as a silhouette in one of the Master Sword cutscenes was kinda sad.
I agree with almost everything you said here, especially Zelda's 'sacrifice'. I felt like that was what the story hinged on, like that was its biggest selling point, and the buildup and execution was honestly amazing, especially since the Light Dragon was one of the first things you see in the game, like, you're looking for Zelda and she was right there all along. ..And then all of it just gets completely reversed and she doesn't remember any of it, pretty much taking away the one genuinely good thing about the game's story, which leaves everything else, which is only decent at best. Underwater exploration was the thing I was the most excited for, especially since there was a Water Temple. Why would you include a Water Temple without water exploration? There's no way they couldn't have made underwater exploration work alongside building boats, or alongside the depths being a thing, especially given the amount of time we had. We were just robbed. I kind of disagree on the part about Ganondorf. Heavily disagree, actually. There's more nuance and deeper motivation in his Japanese lines that the English localization ruined. He talks a lot more about wanting to return the world to the way it once was in Japanese. The best example of this is the line he says right before fighting Link. In English, he says "It would have been more... Satisfying to overcome a worthy foe." while in Japanese, the line is (more roughly translated ofc) "The ones from the past still had their sense of fighting spirit..." Basically, he's pissed off at Hyrule (and Rauru specifically) because there used to be more monsters running around everywhere, and people had more conflict in their lives and were overall hardier and stronger, but when Rauru showed up and sealed all the monsters away and everything became super peaceful and prosperous, that kind of strength disappeared. There's more to it than that, what with Ganondorf's stubbornness in accepting change ties into why just one Secret Stone made him so incredibly powerful, but it would take 20 more paragraphs to explain. He's probably not as deep and fleshed out as, say, Wind Waker's Ganondorf, but I do prefer him over OOT or TP's, and don't think he's uninteresting at all. Also what's your deal with Rauru? I didn't think he was amazing but I did enjoy him, and he was definitely one of the more fleshed out characters TOTK introduced.
@@carnage0685 my gripe with Rauru was my initial reaction to his claim of being "the first king of hyrule" but now I understand that he isn't literally the first. There were more Hyrules before that furry bastard. No way in hell he's the first. Plus he got a hell of a lot more screen time than the protagonist himself, the guy you play as and grew up with. Totk felt like it was Rauru's game instead of Link's lol, when in the past it was all ABOUT Link. Wind Waker and even more so Twilight Princess. I actually even respect and admire TP Link quite a lot. None of that was felt in TOTK, he was more of a side character, reacting to things. I hated that.
@@Giggles_iJest Ohhhhh, yeah, I was wondering if that was the case. So it wasn't the character himself as much as some of the implications they made about him. Also yeah you're right, it DOES feel more like Rauru's game than anyone else's, especially Link. I never liked BOTW Link, but he's probably even WORSE in TOTK. It's also horrifically stupid that he doesn't tell anyone about Zelda even after he finds out. I found the cutscenes before I found all of the temples, and having to pursue a Zelda I knew was obviously fake was just.. Horrible. It completely slaughtered any and all immersion I felt.
I don’t hate Zelda’s new open world but making a rpg where a weapon brakes in 3 hits is diabolical and something that made me step away from tears of the kingdom I understand having a weapon with 100 or maybe 50 durability but never just 3 hits
This is the cycle for basically any blockbuster movie or game these days. Personally, I think this is the result of mass Schilling (is that how its spelled?).
I’ve always disliked Tears purely because of how easy it is to streamline it. At a certain point, it feels like I have to severely limit myself and what I can do in order to have fun, but that in turn makes the game drag since I’ve imposed so many restrictions and the only thing keeping them down is myself.
That must explain why I like it so much. I didn't cheese anything nearly at all. I used builds, but made absolutely sure to explore, fight, and do quests as intended. Just as I did before the terrible day I got the master sword in botw; I kept all my hearts less than 7 and I maxed out my stamina asap. I must say that currently this feels like it is technically the greatest game ever made. It is so technically impressive that I'm actually hurt and disappointed by this reaction people are having. The amount of blood seat and tears poured into this game seems evident to me. It seems so close to perfect for what it does. That being said, the game is somehow not at all my favorite. It is only technically the best to me for being so great at what it does. Its what it doesnt do that makes it disappointing. Uf they keep this formula, they have to find a way to reincorporate elements of the old games. Oot, Majoras Mask, Windwaker, TP did a few things too well for it to be forgotten. It's tough, but clearly, based on thos reaction, they have to figure out the solution to this challenge quick!
That’s… not a problem. The developers knew they couldn’t appeal to everyone with every little thing, so they made the genius choice to let people just.. skip the things they don’t want to do. So little of this game is actually required, that if you actually skipped everything you didn’t need to do you wouldn’t have any fun. Solution? Play the game. 🤯
@@minecrafter3448 it's a lot easier said than done. I mean, look - unless you're someone who is intrinsically motivated, it's really hard to find a reason to take the slower and scenic route. If the game wants you to get something done, a lot of people will find the most efficient and most accessible way to do it. This wouldn't be a problem if the most accessible way was, say, really concise and difficult to pull off. Instead, all you need to do is attach two fans to a steering stick and you can fly around the entire map at your leisure. When you know that option exists, it's REALLY hard to motivate yourself to do anything else.
@@2c2bpolitics-ce-gate3-4 I completely agree with you on your first two points. When you take your time with the game and experiment with everything, it truly is an absolute marvel. My issue is that you're given a bit too much freedom with this technology. Now, that isn't to say that too much freedom is a bad thing, but... let's take this scenario for example. Let's say you decide to do the Rito quest last. You have plenty of experience with the game and can tell that the way up to the Stormwind Ark will be daunting. You're well accustomed to messing around with all of your Zonai devices, so you know what you can build and what is the most reliable way to accomplish different goals Do you A: Take your time and go through the ship-jumping puzzle as the devs created Or B: Use some sort of flying device like rocket shields, a hoverbike, or something else entirely to skip the whole sequence and finish the job in nearly 1/4 the amount of time Realistically, a lot of players will use option B. The game just gives you so much to work with and doesn't consider that it breaks a lot of the design of each dungeon, location, and so on. Here's another example of this You wanna get to a plateau that's really far from where you are because you think there's something cool on it. But you also know it will take a while to get there and you're a little impatient. Do you A: Take your time Or B: Run to a skyview tower that's only thirty seconds or so away, launch yourself into the air, and propel yourself with Tulin to get to the plateau quicker, skipping over anything that may slow you down in the process Again, it's not as if everyone has a model of anti-fun, but rather it's that you have to MAKE yourself have fun that kills the game. If you wanna have fun, you have to disregard a lot of the tools you're given and take the slower route, which can be hard when you know those tools are RIGHT THERE and the only thing preventing you from using them is yourself.
@@sleeplessarcher the intrinsic motivation is wanting to have fun. Be honest, did you do even half of the puzzles presented to you? And when you did them, did you try to find a unique solution, or did you use the boring intended way every time?
The "Zelda cycle" isn't real. The honeymoon phase for TotK wore off after only a month or two. People have been vocal about the game's flaws for over a year now
Exactly. The only people overly praising TOTK are/were UA-camrs and people who loved the building system but most people who expected more from the exploration and improvements on BOTW issues were left disappointed for several reasons. TOTK feels more like an Open World AC game with G-Mod than a proper sequel to BOTW that took 6 YEARS
Ya best start believing in Zelda cycles Mr. Hatlen, I've lived one! Refs aside, I've seen the Zelda cycle in me own time. I remember back when I was a kid who grew up with LoZ:TP and LoZ:SS and both of those games were absolutely panned online, and I had to live with people talking sh¡t about those games and about people like me who enjoyed them. Now, we have these namby pamby mfs coming in with posh accents saying "oh, those games are actually good and new new Zelda is evil and bad", actin like they're some kinda genius for saying what me kin were saying back then. People could have listened to us then, but no, they instead listened to the words of the worst Game Grump and formed a religion of the phrase "non-linear > linear". Now, people wanna try to gaslight my gen into believing that that never happened, but I say nuts to that.
Nintendo are absolutely going to continue with the open world formula, though likely making adjustments to it. They’ll take notes from older games for sure, but there’s no good reason for them to pull a 180 back to the old formula.
Honestly I think every Zelda game is better than its predecessor to me except tears of the kingdom because to me it feels like a repeat. To a new player it could be good but after recency bias fades away after like a week for me it’s just lackluster
@@magau3698 and? like, idiot i already said i don't like open world games and didn''t complain about the game in any other way. like this isnt a fucking "issue" its difference in tastes. did your idiot brain get fucked by stupid or something?
@@JacksonVoet because its zelda. its my favorite series, and when an open world game is good enough i usually dont mind. like the horizon games on playstation are some of my favorite games i just wish they werent open world. i wanted totk to be good enough for me to love it despite being open world
I think two things can be true at the same time: TOTK is disappointing as a followup to BOTW. TOTK, as a stand-alone game, is the best Zelda game we’ve ever had.
I like to view TOTK as a different timeline thing kind of like how Age of Calamity was. To be honest I couldn’t care less about the story so that’s also another thing.
stuff like breath of the wild's better final dungeon doesn't save it over totk for me. ultrahand is the sort of thing i've been wanting since as far back as Twilight Princess. as another commenter said, i think both the open world games are kinda meh. but i personally haven't felt that we've had a 'good-good' zelda game since TP - which i do love, still - it made me cry the hardest at the end. but on the critical side kinda find it just okay. and this is still one of my favorite media franchises
I finished both games and now i can't play either of them. TOTK made BOTW obsolete, but at the same time it disappointed me so much because it was just BOTW on steroids but lacking the exploration feel, the storyline, and it became far more repetitive than its predecessor. Rewards were better on BOTW, most sidequest aren't worth the time on TOTK. It's a dissappointing masterpiece.
I don't see how BOTW/TOTK saved Zelda from obscurity. They knew what fans wanted with Twilight Princess and it was proved sales wise. 3D Zelda was fine always selling 70% of 3D Mario and could grow healthfully if their choice was evolving Zelda gameplay instead of change direction in each entry. Look at From Software and Souls series, selling more than 20+ millions copy just by evolving Souls formula with a gameplay that has a greater entry barrier than any 3D Zelda game. If their choice was evolving over Twilight Princess we could have a 20+ millions seller that is true to Zelda gameplay nowadays, which is for me the only reason a gaming franchise should exist. I really dislike this idea of a gaming franchise being more about assets than gameplay.
With just how much LoZ's popularity has (rightfully) exploded over the past 7 years, it just makes me even more eager to see a return to form like with OoT. I want new fans to understand why the old games worked and how important things like story, lore, and dungeons are to this series. I want to see these games succeed in the current age of gaming, too. At the same time, I'm still incredibly excited for Echoes of Wisdom. Not because you play as Zelda, but because I love the 2d titles, too, and it frustrates me when they get slept on. I mean, OoT is essentially 3d ALttP in a lot of ways. These games all feed into each other and learn from what came before. They always have.
I'm a bit scared about the sandbox aspects of Echoes of Wisdom, but I'm confident the game will be great nonetheless. 2D Zelda is harder to mess up. Phantom Hourglass was my introduction to the Zelda Series and I love that game to bits. I've only played A Link Between Worlds so far which is my 3rd favorite Zelda game, and a bit of both Spirit Tracks and Minish Cap but I'm thorougly eager to discover Link's Awakening and the Oracle Games. 2D Zelda is so underrated.
@@poncho3326 I'm also excited, but I'm worried about the fundamental gameplay as Zelda. Sure swinging around a sword has been done in every game could do with an interesting change, but the echo mechanic looks like it could get old quickly. This is just what I've seen from the trailer though, I'm still pretty hopeful for it!
I remember playing "A Link Between Worlds" as a little kid on my Nintendo DS. It was the first game that actually let me touch the background. In any Mario game I had access to, I could look at mountains and skies, but never reach them. In Spartan: Total Warrior (this one's for GameCube) I was very confined to a singular map. The Hobbit and James Bond (both are also GameCube) were close, too, but it didn't take long for their running around space to feel small. A Link Between Worlds is by no means a fan favorite, and I hear it talked about very, very little, but it got me entirely enamored with the Zelda Franchise at a young age. I could make the currency and do the puzzles and hone my skills at my own pace, and it fed a very healthy interest in exploration that rewarded me with actually letting me see what I was exploring! I loved it! I took up an interest in the original pixelated games, and I loved them too (hard as they were to navigate) because they felt free in ways other games don't capture the same way. Zelda has been an exploration and freedom-heavy game for years and years now. BOTW may have let you do things in your own order, sure, but this franchise has *always* been open, it was CREATED open. That's what's *always* set it apart. This isn't nearly as new as a lot of people seem to think that it is.
My comment carries no hate or criticism, and it's not a rant or vent either, just a friendly reminder that BOTW & TOTK were not the first to be open air and shouldn't be taking that title the way that they are credited for. They highlighted it, but did not debut that feature in the slightest for the franchise. No one's gonna read this, but thank you if you did! You have a good one! ❤️
i still need nintendo to give us a damn open world closed dungeons game. its that simple
EXACTLY !
i like the music in the divine beasts, but that is literally it for me. why tf on earth does the fire dungeon boss in BotW not do wacky fire punches or some sh**?? like it's so dang simple my dudes
@@narzangrover1033 making a video game is anything but simple.
@Pajarocaro but nintendo, a company who have been making games for decades, could 100% do that, thats their point.
@@Kav_Games Nintendo are a small indie studio with a small budget, cut them some slack :(
Competent combat and an actual story would be nice as well. But yeah, actual dungeons/temples need to come back, first and foremost.
The "Zelda Cycle", "Sonic Cycle" and "Star Wars Cycle" are natural byproducts of people having time to critically evaluate media after their honeymoon phases wear off. While TotK is a blast to play for the first 5-6 hours, eventually the cracks in the gameplay loop begin to show and the story becomes more questionable the more you mull it over. It's only natural to compare games and movies to their predecessors and determine what was done better and what wasn't, so I always find it a bit strange when people claim that these types of "Cycles" are odd or unnatural. There's still tons of people out there who love TotK and sing its praise, but of course more negativity will eventually arise the more time people have to properly analyze it.
Nah, there's no way it isn't some f$ckery. People talked mad smack when LoZ:TP and LoZ:SS were new, which was when younger me played them and had to deal with their sh¡t talking, but now people wanna pretend like that they can be all buddy buddy with us now that those games are old. All I'm seeing is an endless cycle of negativity around whatever the new Zelda is no matter what the new Zelda is, and I'm getting sick of negativity in this fandom, if we can even call it a fandom at this point. I'm getting sick of people always talking sh¡t about every single Zelda game.
@@weatherman1504 people have high expectations of zelda games, especially when the releases are so few and far between. Totk has a lot of issues, but honestly they aren’t as big of a deal as the fatigue people are feeling for these games formula.
There is no "Star Wars cycle". Pretty much every movie has been bad since the originals.
@@BaNgInHeAdS hell even one third of the originals is bad (episode 6) but the cycle still exists because a lot of people now claim that the prequals are good all of a sudden just becuase the sequel triology is also bad
@@marvinvogtde I really debated saying the same thing about Return of the Jedi. Ultimately I just threw it in with the other two for brevity.
The one thing I do appreciate about tbe prequels is that it was one guy who was authentically trying to tell a story. Sure he lacked in execution but it is preferable to the three barely connected movies created by a focus groups under Disney.
I find it amazing that a lot of people have gotten tired of the open air Zelda when there’s only been 2 games that use it in comparison to the 5 games that use the traditional formula (not including the 2D games like ALTTP that also has a similar formula) but I think I may have a theory as to why. Zelda games have always been unique in comparison to other games, they’re not quite RPGS their not quite Adventure games their not quite 3D puzzle games. All of it was combined to make Zelda a very unique genre, and while BOTW and TOTK have Zelda elements they’re easily considered as open world games similar to RDR,GTA,Elden Ring, etc. there are so many open world games that it’s far easier for Open Air Zelda to feel tired. Funny enough if and when the series finally merged to two formulas, it should still feel like a Open word game but more importantly it will feel like a Open world ZELDA game. If that makes sense
Yeah, that actually makes sense! Pretty interesting if you think about it.
@@LinktheCommunistWaifu Lol I love your username
“If”
It’s already been done, echoes of wisdom is a full fusion of both.
@@sonictitan1239 it's pretty easy to get tired of the open air formula when tears of the kingdom refuses the same damn map
It's boring because it is very repetitive. I felt exhausted to play the same all over again being finished a BOTW run just before the release of the game. I mean, just the task of having to find the koroks AGAIN, was... frustrating at least
Istg for every TotK content I see, it's gonna be "Totk is bad" "new zelda sucks" "botw was cool"
It's becoming so infruiating I swear I feel like if you enjoy those games now you're not a real Zelda fan because of people literally crucifying the wild era games which are... Two games comparing to literally every other game who have basically the same structure. TotK and BotW aren't even my fav Zelda games put the resentment for those games is blown out of proportion
@theblackmoonrising I bought botw in April as my first Zelda game and sunken 200 hours into. I'm currently 65 hous into totk and I see no reason to compare these games to the previous ones. Yes they are different but you can still enjoy them as it is, after all, they're video games meant to be played for entertainment.
And then there goes for every content I see on UA-cam is either totk being compared to botw or totk being compared to anything else before botw 💀
I really don't wanna tell people they can't feel a certain way, but I just can't help but see things like this and find it super unfair to the game. Most criticisms I see either have such an obvious in-game solution/explanation or are blown out of proportion, yet that negative image is gonna follow this game for possibly ever. Luckily it seems to be limited to the more Zelda specific communities as I've found myself understanding criticisms more in other places, but it's still such a shame.
@@theblackmoonrising Some of the hate is extremely forced. You're not even allowed to like totk
It has been hilarious to see it go from "this game makes BotW obsolete!" to "Meh, the story does have some glaring issues (this one is true, but it's good in isolation, just has weird lore choices and awkward connective tissue with BotW)" to "worst Zelda ever and you suck if you enjoy it". I've been playing since LttP, so I know being a major fan of Zelda should be its own ASD (of course I include myself, refer to pfp lol) but these people rival Sanic's fanbase. I respect opinions, but it's the more.. we'll say passionate ones that will crucify you if you love TotK that I just can't help but envision being like Chris Chan pepper spraying a Gamestop employee because Sanic's arms were blue.
I think I’m one of the few who played hundreds if not thousands of hours of Botw (to the point of 100% everything) who liked Tears of the kingdom just as much if not more. You could say it’s because it feels like dlc but honestly TOTK is Botw with more stuff and cooler things to do, better dungeons, story and bosses and more to explore. Sure the exploration I got from Botw May never be topped but TOTK just feels like the definitive Botw imo. Honestly the only reason I would recommend people to play Botw first before TOTK is if they are a casual gamer who would be overwhelmed by TOTK, or if they are somebody who likes character and story, and the events of bot could ad more weight to the events of TOTK, but even then I can just tell them to watch the cutscenes then play TOTK
I don't think this is as uncommon as it seems honestly. TotK is designed with people's BotW knowledge in mind, and I don't think it would work as well as a standalone game since you wouldn't be as inclined to skip half a map you've never seen before.
@@speedude0164 I get what you mean, but there were a decent number of areas I didn’t return to that new players if totk may have. Only reason I went back in totk was to 100% the game, I’m glad I did return though tbf
@@benjthewhite That is kinda what I'm saying. Instead of treading across the surface like you did in Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom encourages you to spot landmarks from Sky Islands and skydive straight there, skipping a whole bunch of terrain in the process. To new players, those landmarks are gonna be much more plentiful.
@@speedude0164 That’s def true. You’d only come across that if using the zonai land vehicles to get there
Based.
In my opinion Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are BOTH majorly overrated. Not because they are badly designed, but because they are too simplified WHILE ALSO being too big for the actual content they contain. In a vacuum I would say TOTK is the better game of the two, and if you stuck the Sheikah Slate in TOTK so that you had both game's powers it'd be the "best" those games can be. But TOTK coming after BOTW, with objectively minimal changes, it's just very tedious. MM reused OoT assets but made something entirely new out of it. This just copy-pasted 75% of the game. Again, I think it's *BETTER* , but not different enough to not make it feel extremely repetitive.
Moving past that however, I feel the main issue with the game(s) can be summed up with "what's the point?". What's the point of fusing more than a couple different types of vehicles? What's the point of fusing items and gear outside of a very few specific instances? Most importantly what's the point of exploring this giant ass map? The game doesn't support anything complex enough to make discovering hidden things actually worthwhile. Take the weapon system: it literally just boils down to 1H sword, 2H sword, spear. That's it. Bigger number = better.
You know what is an easy-to-point-to example of a game with a way better system? Souls games. Look at how diverse builds are in that game. Why? Because so many weapons have unique movesets. And people gravitate towards all sorts of different styles of weapons and armor because of their preferred gameplay style. In makes exploring to find new weapons a very meaningful goal and reward. Gear could have had a weight system that trades off mobility with defense or gives more tangible benefits than the very slight differences the current games offer. That's not to say I want Zelda to be like Dark Souls, I want Nintendo to take some inspiration from it and make their own thing though.
You know another system that this game could have benefitted from? One from its own series - discovering new items. There's some of that old-style that Aonuma apparently hates now! Why does open world have to mean absence of classic items? (Put aside the dungeons they typically come with for now). Something like the hookshot could have been an awesome introduction that helped with climbing things. And it's a hell of a lot faster and simpler than "let me sit here fusing some stupid hoverboard for 5 minutes". Hookshot halfway up the wall, climb up, hookshot to another ledge, climb more. No more hookshot targets needed, just shoot at any rock or tree and go. They have such a large item pool of ideas to draw from for interesting uses.
But all of this hinges on the game world supporting this stuff. And the fact is the world is simply too big the way it is now. 80% of the map is nearly worthless to explore. More of this stuff could be sprinkled around, discovering some special sword with unique moves in a mountain cave that requires the hookshot to get to for example. I mean this is just a comment I'm writing in 5 minutes with some ideas, imagine what we all know the Zelda team is capable of dreaming up with years of planning. The fact is they are holding back way too much.
they created a big game with all this stuff to do and places to go but nothing that's actually worth doing, and nowhere worth going. after doing almost everything and going almost everywhere i just felt extremely unsatisfied, like i just wasted a huge amount of my life.
@@carnage0685that sums up my experience lol, and I was so hyped after loving botw
The problem with these games is EVERYTHING that should be fun and exhilarating also requires you to do an insane amount of tedious and boring work.
Building machines requires you to grind for battery. Exploring requires you to grind shrines for stamina. Weapon fusion requires pace-breaking menu navigation. Weapon degradation almost encourages players to hoard more than experiment freely. Korok seeds kill progression. And side quests barely provide adequate rewards.
The game forces me to make it fun and worthwhile rather than it providing that experience and I’d be cool with this if I also didn’t play $70
That's exactly what I've been thinking. I prefer BOTW but many gameplay elements in TOTK are objectively better and I was really sitting on that for a while thinking WHY do I still like it less and that's because those abilities would be AWESOME in a different game. I didn't have any fun experimenting in TOTK with the fusion and ultrahand systems because every single time you try something it costs you incredible amount of time and resources. Why should I put a star on a magical rod to discover it does LITERALLY NOTHING and be disappointed that I wasted 2 useful items? Why should I spend hours building interesting contraptions when I can just spam Y on enemies I can kill in 5 seconds? Why do I have to fuse rocks every single time to sticks just to go through a cave that is filled to the brim with useless rocks that act as a "obstacle" and why does every weapon I make that's actually practical have to look so ridiculous? Like, half of the "intended" materials and weapon combos look like from soke wAcKy BoInGo shitpost
I loved the first 20 hours of BOTW but hated the rest once it began repeating. It's a 20 hour game padded and stretched into a 60+ hour experience. Running across flat, green textures and fighting the same copy pasted moblins, bokoblins and lizalfos 10,000 times over isn't content. Totk is worse, copy pasting the same map and enemies from its predecessor.
Also bang on the money with the Dark Souls weapon system analogy. I couldn't take Botw seriously after I saved the Zora domain from the divine beast and they bestowed on me a trident used by a fallen champion during the great calamity battle, a priceless heirloom revered by its peo- and it's gone. Shattered to dust after 20 swings to a moblins rear end.
Tears had so much potential I feel like. Nintendo could’ve made it so much cooler if they would’ve learned how to make the game have an actual progressing story. Don’t get me wrong I loved Ganon in totk, but if he was actually doing stuff in Hyrule instead of sitting underground waiting, it would’ve been so much better. I wish they would make link relatable too, like link in twilight princess was perfect and is still my fav version. I rlly wanted totk to have new towns, or new music choice since it was in the same map. If Nintendo would just listen some times, and actually think about how to make a good story for an open world game, totk could’ve been soooo much better. There’s also so many story problems, many wondered why caves and wells, and sky islands randomly appeared while all Nintendo said was “because of the upheaval” they could’ve explained it way more and just using the upheaval as an excuse every time doesn’t work.
Fully agree on that really. They seem to have a weird relationship with story in their games nowadays and seemingly fail to realize how much richer an experience can be when there's careful thought to the story, characters and worldbuilding. They're better game makers than story makers and while I do admire that they focus on gameplay primarily, it still leaves the experiences lacking that extra spice.
I personally never understood the sentiment that Ganon had no presence in this game, cause I actually had the opposite feeling. I feel like his presence is very frequently there and is an oppressive presence. Sure he never physically is there but the things like the gloom, the new monster types, the gloom hands and phantom ganon, the entirety of the depths and the holes that lead into them. Plus all of the different impacts the upheaval had on each region, the Gerudo region being the biggest example of this, essentially being under a zombie apocalypse.
In botw ganon never felt like he was really there aside from the guardians and malice, but even then, the guardians are much more emblematic of the sheika if anything.
But yeah I felt Ganon had actually a much larger, though mostly indirect presence in totk which led to the endgame feeling that much more climactic. If his indirect presence already feels so oppressive and intimidating, the lair he resides in must be unimaginably dangerous, and it IS. That’s why gloom’s approach is probably my favorite and most memorable area of the game.
@@kyubeyz_7062 I agree with you on that. Like every new thing in the game would’ve of happened if it wasn’t for Ganon basically. I just wish he could’ve actually came to the surface a few times and maybe we could’ve had like a re happening of the imprisoning war with link and the citizens of Hyrule fighting, and Ganons last ditch is to go underground where the final battle regular begins.
@@Owen133 yeah it’s like they don’t know how to full incorporate a story especially in these type of Zelda games. They just go for the easy route and make out of order cutscenes. It would’ve been great if you could’ve interacted better with some of the main characters in the real world instead of them being stuck in the past. They just seem to go with the easier options
I dunno, it feels pretty obvious to me that the same kind of storytelling as the classic games wouldn't work in a game where you can go anywhere anytime. There are certainly other ways to do it than memories, but it's just something we're gonna have to wait for and see. I also mostly disagree with the point on Ganondorf since not only did he summon nearly every monster in Hyrule, he appears constantly in the form of Puppet Zelda to spread his influence while his body heals underground, and I think that's such a cool concept. I just don't like how inconsistent Puppet Zelda's writing is.
It's not a case of "Zelda cycle" here. The hype for TOTK died down pretty quickly when people started playing it and realized that it's a kind of "soft reboot". Nintendo decided that things from the previous game had magically disappeared (according to the devs themselves), and basically created the same experience again, without building anything significant on top of the previous game (by the way, it's the player's responsibility to build things in the game).
I've seen a lot of people claim that this was a "switch up" in perception, but in my experience I just don't think it works. I was enamored with this game in the first few days of playing it, forcing myself to dig deep and find the limits of the ultrahand mechanic was extremely fun. But once I did that for a while, I saw no reason to really do that on the same level anymore beyond basic solutions. Unfortunately, it was then that I also realized that was kind of the entire focus of development, so I was then left with nothing to do but fly over the same areas I'd seen before and do shrines that can almost all be completely cheesed for a reward that straight up makes the game more boring in my opinion. Beyond a very select few there were no in depth side stories to engage with that amounted to more than just simple tool tips, and both areas of the map that were new very quickly became repetitive and lame. On top of all of that, I had the best weapons and had killed the same like 4 or 5 overworld boss types multiple times, and I realized... why even continue looting bokoblin camps at this point? All it would do is either waste resources or just leave me evened out on them. So yeah, no cool quests, no interesting castles or man made structures to work through beyond the small hand full of what I thought were almost all under cooked dungeons, no reason to fight anymore enemies because the variety is sparse and the rewards would not be worth it, no variety in content, so I'm just forced to arbitrarily chase shrines and light roots to "check off the list." And, like I said, I just don't find skipping over the solutions fun or the reward meaningful enough, and because it's just doing this there's no build up or iconic moments of progression. With the luster of ultrahand gone it was just a huge world that I'd already explored with a really small amount of what I'd consider meaningful content inside it. All of this is before I even mention what I thought of the story, but I digress.
The main point here is that yeah, on week one I was having a lot of fun with the game. But as it's supposedly a 300 hour experience, am I wrong for that opinion changing past the 30 or 40 hour mark? People can deflect and claim that we are only saying this because "Zelda Cycle" or whatever horseshit that has been made up for the past 20 years, but I just don't think that's a genuine and real argument. With that said, people can have their own views on the game: if you like the game, that's perfectly fine and there are definitely things to like about it. But listening to common criticisms on similar points of contention like the lack of continuity, the reuse of the world map, the poor dungeons, the story that a lot of people think is laughably bad, etc, and then having no better rebuttal than "nah bro, that's just the Zelda cycle, happens all the time, these people don't know what they want and are really entitled" just seems so disconnected with the idea that some people have opposing views. It is essentially a get out of jail free card that sees you exit the conversation so you don't have to engage in critical discussion yourself.
Anyway, blah blah blah, all I'm saying is this: the perception that things like this follow some kind of cycle is meaningless to actual discussion of the topic. There are people that genuinely believe what they're saying, and had their views shift in real time as they played the game. It isn't so black and white that enjoying the first section of a game means it's impossible to go on to dislike the last 75 percent of the experience, and that's true for anything.
@@Cheesehead302 Well said. I also liked Ultrahand at first, and it was nice to try out the game's tutorial, but I realized there was something very wrong with the game as soon as I got off that first tutorial island and I realized that probably the best part of the experience had already been left behind, just like BOTW, but now it's even more critical because it's the same world, with the same enemies, the same weapons and movesets for Link, damn, it was painful to realize how derivative the game is from BOTW and how quickly it becomes a monotonous and repetitive checklist completion.
In fact, thinking about it now, the first island was the best part of the experience for me because it was all designed to take advantage of the Ultrahand and show the player how to use it to increase their interaction with the environment, but as soon as the tutorial is over, you're back in the old world of BOTW, which was NOT designed for the Ultrahand. It's a design decision that doesn't make any sense.
Then someone might argue: "they needed to keep the same world because it's a direct sequel to the previous game", but then you play the damn game, and it's a soft reboot that barely acknowledges what happened in the first game and only had a few key things explained later in interviews by the devs, so they could have basically made another world without any negative consequences for the story. And what's worse: it's not as if there's no new terrain, there's all the Dephts, but it's basically procedurally generated terrain that makes use of cheap stimuli for the player to use some vehicles, instead of being something carefully designated like the first island.
And as you well said, all these unbelievable problems that turned a game with potential into something extremely monotonous and bureaucratic will be totally ignored because people use terms like "Zelda cycle", which by the way says nothing about the game itself, it's a term that says more about the fan base.
@@jpa3974 To focus on one thing you said, I'd argue there's a reason the tutorial area is probably the best part of the game; it realizes that there is benefit to having some intentional design instead of being completely freely exploration. At that point you probably haven't gotten used to how broken Ultrahand is yet, which also makes you feel more restrained. Besides the world map reuse, it really is that simple for me in terms making the next game a winner: stop claiming that open design is unfailable and that intentional design is worthless, and you can make a more sensible blending of the two. Instead of giving access to LITTERALLY everything from the start, make the player work for access to different parts of the game. Have them gain new equipment or key progression items.
In Elden Ring, just because there are a few things you need to find or do to proceed in certain areas does not mean that you are completely stripped of having self driven exploration in open environment. No, even though you can't access absolutely everything immediately, there are still at any given time massive environments to explore, way more area themes with their own unique enemies and lore implications, structured linear enemy fortresses, and unique stuff to find. And when you finally are ready to progress further into those areas with progression requirements, it becomes something that is incredibly satisfying to unlock and discover, as now that world that was already massive has just become even bigger at the next turn. And it's all because the game rewards you for over coming something, you know, like a video game is supposed to.
This discussion could go on for eternity if I let it, but beyond the really obvious derivitiveness of Tears of the Kingdom, this is the main thing they have to change their philosophy on. So many people were hopeful that this game would follow the trend of Nintendo appealing to fan demand (which I'd argue was one of the reason Botw was so huge for a lot of people) and we'd see a game with the best of both elements of the series: largely open structure with tightly designed dungeons, puzzles, and maybe even a solidly progressing story. But instead, they took things that were issues last time and doubled down on them, telling everybody that they don't care if it's something that strikes a better balance and improves on the formula, they just wanted something with a new gimmick.
You're describing the Zelda cycle
@@nigeladams8321 As far as I know, the Zelda Cycle is the opinion that the new Zelda in the franchise is actually horrible, but when Nintendo releases another game, that Zelda considered horrible becomes the example of a good Zelda, while now the new one is horrible, and so on.
It was the opposite with TOTK, people started off with endless hype, the game was considered a "masterpiece", but over time people started to get quite burned out with it and saw the game in a different light.
I hate people disregarding my criticism of the game by going "Zelda cycle" I have never once disliked a zelda game for ripping off another one, I have never hated a zelda game for having a badly written story that can spoil itself, I have never hated a zelda game for having two thirds of its content be trivial garbage. On top of all this they did NOT bring dungeons back. TOKT is a disapointment and it's not some magical cycle, it's just a very long game and it took a while to realise this was "it"
The issue isn’t the writing, it’s the execution
@Crowebar-fe9ln
Imo, it’s definitely also a writing issue
You can say that to Majora's Mask, that game is the first and biggest victim of the "Zelda Cycle" or the "Ocarina of Time Effect"
There is no issue, people are just blindly following angry Twitter people.
Nah it's fine you can hate the game if you want, just like be respectful ig
screw the zelda cycle, i already hated Tears of the Kingdom back in may 2023 😎
Did ya hate botw too?
Lemme guess… you pr favourite game is Oot?
@@pchanAnimatesSometimes I loved BotW and my favourite Zelda game is Majora's Mask
@@fyyfnyyn Well well well
you and me both, and my opinion hasnt changed.
Same
Okay hear me out: New zelda game world is BotW style, dungeons are traditional and (mostly) linear. Story is traditional style cause new story style SUCKS.
That’s what I assumed they would do with a literal Botw sequel. Oh well
That's what most people hoped for with TOTW, it makes sense as a synthesis of both styles of games and it's not even that hard to do honestly.
But Nintendo is nothing if not stubborn, for better or worse. I expect things to only start moving in the right direction after at least one or two more major games in that open-air style. The Zelda cycle will remain, but I don't think anyone will disagree that certain games like Skyward Sword or TOTK had less of a honeymoon-period and an overall stronger pushback.
This will be even more pronounced with the 3r or 4th game in that new formula. It has its genius and great ideas, but people are getting tired of it very quickly.
Not only that but dungeons should need to be encountered in a set order, imagine going to a place where you feel like there's something more but you can't figure out how to uncover it, a place that you actually have a reason to come back to and you can't just do everything on the first visit. That kind of thing can happen if you discover a dungeon early
I hope they have like a mainland then like an ocean to explore
They could have had like 3 dungeons you could do in any order, after completing them a story cutscene plays showing the villain growing in power and maybe affecting the world in some way. Then out sprouts 5 more dungeons that are more challenging but can be completed in any order. Beat the 5, more story beats. Fight the big boss. The end. I don't understand the need for completing dungeons in any order you want but Link Between Worlds nailed it.
UA-camrs making up terms like ''Disappointing Masterpiece'' like they raised their expectations too much and are shocked when the game isn't pure perfection.
They just throw out that term when they see the work thats been put into it but it just doesnt click, or become a great/fun game for them
But they still give it 10/10 while stating it has problems. They did the same thing with BOTW, "the story wasn't great, the weapon system was bad, the combat and shrines got repetitive, it ran at 720p 30fps with frequent frame drops, it didn't have full voice acting, assets got reused to death, the divine beast dungeons were short, hollow and repetitive, the shrine music and aesthetic got repetitive, there may have been 700 too many Korok seeds, rewards seemed redundant as they were almost always disposable weapons but besides that 10/10 greatest game ever! Look a 10/10 masterpiece doesn't mean a perfect game! No game is perfect! Gosh.. just lower your expectations a bit. Jeez."
they're coping
Yeah "like best game ever 😘 btw game suck🤢🤯😤"
Expecting an ok story is too much?
Playing TOTK first day blind was one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. It was just better BOTW
At first. Took me a week to hate it.
@@jimskim8568 That feeling lasted for me until the end of the game
Same
@@jimskim8568 Yeah, it was exciting to explore the world and try to get as much done, but it just got exhausting and there was no real reward to do it. I literally only finished one dungeon and I had enough.
I still think the game is incredible, also the motion controls at least aren’t forced on you. Then again, tears is the first Zelda game that I’ve really loved. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good story (I’m a big Dragon Quest fan), but freedom and exploration is something I need to some extent (hence why I hadn’t been into Zelda before). Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
No really think same thing im a guy who loves the old zelda games and i really like this one too and i dont get why people keep hating on it.
As someone whose first Zelda game was Wind Waker, whose original favourite Zelda game was Twilight Princess, and who had played every 3D Zelda game before BotW came out, I really like the open air formula and hope that the Zelda team continues to improve it. My biggest issue with TotK (which I think is a wonderful game btw) wasn't that it was open air but that it reused the map from BotW which made exploration not as fresh (although the caves were fantastic). Had the game taken place entirely within the sky (and by extension had more sky islands) or in a new land, I would probably have almost zero issues with it.
I would hate to see the Zelda team drop or entirely change the open air Zelda formula akin to what BotW did with the traditional 3D Zelda formula when we're only two games into it as opposed to five. The open air formula is not what made TotK feel stagnating, it's that it reused the world of BotW which made it feel stagnating
Don’t play totk like botw, and you’ll have a lot more fun. Quick summary:
Breath of the wild was about exploring and conquering the wild, tears of the kingdom is about mastering it. You know this place, make sure this place knows you.
It’s that simple, give it a try.
@@minecrafter3448
I also tried to avoid playing TotK as if it was BotW. I focused much more on exploring the sky islands and the depths, and I travelled across Hyrule mostly through the sky rather than on foot or with a horse. I even decided to keep the Archaic set for most of the game so that I didn't have to wear clothes from BotW, which also made the game more difficult since you can't upgrade that armor set.
Even so, I still wasn't the hugest fan of the reused Hyrule whenever I would need to return to the land for materials or do the story. Especially since the four story dungeons of TotK are in the same areas as BotW, so a lot of the story progression by default would feel like BotW
@@HMMadsen “I focused much more on exploring-“
That’s all I needed to hear, you played tears of the kingdom like it was breath of the wild. Nintendo warned you 2 years in advance and you still couldn’t prepare yourself to play it like a new game?
@@minecrafter3448
I played TotK like I would play any new Zelda game. Exploration is a core aspect of every Zelda game and not just BotW, so of course I would explore. Exploration is also a core aspect of playing TotK and something Nintendo expects you to do in the game with all the new sky islands, the depths, the caves and wells, the new shrine placements etc. Not only that, but it was the developers intention for players to reexplore Hyrule set years after BotW to see what changed over those years. If exploration was not something you should do in TotK, then all of these new and changed areas would be completely unnecessary.
Just because its a new Zelda game doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't explore in set game, given that exploration not only is a fundamental aspect of every mainline Zelda game ever made but also TotK
@@HMMadsen I already have explained in my first reply why that argument falls flat
It’s not just a cycle on Zelda. It’s in pretty much every gaming franchise. The Pokémon fandom is particularly infamous. Remember how when Scarlet & Violet released, it was canned for its glitches and Sword & Shield was cut some slack DESPITE them being hated shortly after they released back in 2018? It even extends way back to Pokemon Gen V; which myself and others initially found boring, but now is well-loved
I hate both and never got over how bad SS and SV were
Idk both are terrible to me looking back but at least I had some fun doing SV while in SS I felt empty during my whole playthrough. SV at least tried new things while SS is the Pokemon formula at its most boring, hollow form.
It's the people who dislike it being more vocal while the supporters enjoy the game or the people who like it smothering the situation with hype while the detractors move on.
Then the other side plus people in the middle actually notice the side that was active but overshadowed. Often they're justified, sometimes they're not.
This cycle sh¡t is f$cked. People talk mad smack about a game when we play it as a kid, continually being negative about it, then they wanna pretend like they're some kinda posh genius for saying "the game is actually good and the new new game is bad and evil". It's honestly an exhausting thing to see unfold.
@@cyberlinkx5290 I mean, at Scarlet and Violet introduced a bunch of cool Pokémon, had a good story, and made a bunch of fun characters. What did Sword and Shield have besides Peony?
Wind Waker was violently hated on release. This supposed "Zelda cycle" is a Twilight Princess and younger phenomenon.
True people were saying like "this is nothing like zelda its baby game" years later this was my childhood game and i loved it people just be hating for clout.
TOTK is basically a bigger and better version of BOTW, expanding from the ground to the skies and depths, and taking just about everything from BOTW and improving/building upon it (gameplay wise at least)
I wouldn’t say better tbh, I had more fun at first but some of the issues (especially with the menus being even worse and slower now) brings it down heavy. (Don’t even get me started on the disappointment of an empty depths map and not enough to do in the skies)
So it's a glorified DLC. Got it.
@@Roflcrabs I have a magical new term for you: it’s a sequel.
@@Roflcrabs it's a sequel just like Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Majora's Mask
@@Fionnlaagh It's a sequel that has changed very little from it's successor
Sometimes I think I'm currently the only person who still loves and enjoys the game 🥲 Perhaps I'm a little biased, because my experience with it was so special... Not only the game but also some great changes in my life when it came out and the game will always be a part of this! But it also took what I loved about BotW and made it even better... Just hits my sweet spot I guess 😅 I see the flaws and I understand why some people dislike/hate about it. But my experience was different, I had so much fun and had this childlike joy and excitement that I haven't had in ages! Don't know why, it just happened... But: Some things really need to be changed for the next game, they can't do this a third time... And I'd love to have some elements of the "classic" Zelda formula back (dungeons with dungeon items, map, compass, small keys and the boss key for example). I hope they can find a perfect balance between both old and new 🤩
Nah you not the only one. This game changed my life and I get to open up to people.
Trust me there’s a whole lot more people that still love it then those who don’t lol
@@Delulula Yeah, I know... But in the last few months it seemed as if every new video (and the comments below) about this game was "it sucks"/"it's bad"/"disappointing"/(...) 🙆🏼♀️ Probably because the people who love it just said it once after their first playthrough and then never again 😅
@@DineDiamond91 They get views that’s why
@@JTtheOctoling true they just copy the "videogame sucks and thats why,dont buy to loose money" type video and they litteraly dont know what they talking about and are just coping what the other guys is saying like parrots
I wonder how much the sales of the Zelda series has to do with the consoles. Nintendo home consoles were successively declining in sales every since the Super Nintendo, until the Switch became one of the best selling consoles of all time. The Wii was the outlier, but most of that console's sales came from casuals that were not really into games. Most people who had a Wii were not really interested in stuff beyond Wii Sports, Wii Fit, etc. I can guarantee this because I remember when I was a kid we went to a hotel that had a game room with a bunch of Wiis set up with Mario Party on them. I imagine a huge percentage of the Wii's sales were for stuff like this. Also, Skyward Sword's sales was likely severly harmed from being one of the few Wii games to require the Wii Motion Plus.
I think you're correct. OOT is an exception since it sold very well for a N64 game.
MM came out around same time as the PS2.
The gamecube sold even worse so WW came up short.
TP sold well because it was the game many fans desired and the Wii wasn't known as the casual console yet.
2d Zelda usually doesnt sell as well as the 3d games.
WiiU bombed and we ended up with the Switch that found a middle ground between casual and dedicated gamers.
I think if we got a traditional 3D Zelda over BOTW, that didn't hold your hand and didn't stick to the tropes (Ganon, Master Sword, Hyrule etc.), it would have been a bestseller in the franchise. Although not a runaway success like BOTW. They could have at least saved this for a 2d game then.
imo wind waker was a outlier of cycle because right from the bat it was being shitted on as Celda and has slowly gained appriciation over time. Twilight princess was basically a response to Wind Wakers pre and post launch and only after twilight princess did the script start flipping.
I just want a sword that doesn't fall apart.
But an _open-ended_ sword is so much better, you can put it back together in _any_ arrangement you like!
emulate it on pc, you can add a mod for weapons to not shatter.
at least the master sword
@@sillydude189I would say it kinda makes sense for the master sword to run out of energy since in almost every Zelda game before botw and tears the master sword is always depicted as being out back to rest after the events have unfolded and the credits rolled but even the unfinished wind waker master sword crushes the tears master sword by just not running out of energy even when it’s absolutely not at full power
@@Silkaz7 ah yes, crime
What's the art used around 5:25?
TotK is a great VIDEOGAME
BotW is a beautiful EXPERIENCE
Playing TotK and it's mechanics I feel that I'm playing a game but when I play BotW is like I'm living an adventure, even both of them being videogames I have this feeling playing the original
THIS!
What a great way to put it. BOTW is a GOAT for me
Hot take (disclaimer im a huge zelda fan): BotW is a kinda empty game and stuff breaking all the time and the only reason it won goty is cause there was no competition that year
More people need to come to this realization. BOTW and TOTK is nothing more than giving children candy for breakfast and dinner. There's little depth to it and virtually no meaning, nothing to chew on or extract value from outside of dopamine and fun for a few hours.
Majora's Mask made you think.
Twilight Princess made you think.
BOTW & TOTK just said, hey you can flip the table to solve all the puzzles. Vapid and shallow excuse for a game. Very pretty though.
no competition? in 2017? Mario Odyssey, Persona 5, Nioh, Cuphead, Horizon Zero Dawn, Resident Evil 7, there was definitely competition
@@KyngD469BOTW/TOTK are far better games than WW/TP/SS, the only 3d zelda games that can pull up a fight in terms of video game quality are the Zelda 64s, the others don't even come close to them
@@KevZ7. This is some 1st grade, top tier, designer, premium, limited edition, collector's edition delulu right here. There aren't even 2 songs between TOTK and BOTW that anyone can remember, that arent also just renditions of previous tracks in the series. Maybe they should ultra-hand together a better game.
@@KyngD469 We're talking about video games, not the discography of two artists, from a video game standpoint they're indeed far better games, Nintendo has remembered how to make games like in the 64 era and stopped the mess the Wii era was
It's a sandbox but there's only sand.
the fanbase has a serious no true scotsman problem. repeatedly falling into media hype and then completely changing your opinion at the same time everyone else does is only a thing for people that have a hard time forming opinions of their own. also, bashing universal specialised acclaim as if gaming journalists are always lying to the public is not the flex some people think it is.
When I first played the game, I immediately knew I liked botw better.
I feel the same way. On paper tears of the kingdom is just botw with more shit added but id rather play botw over tears of the kingdom any day
There is nothing breath of the wild had to offer that tears of the kingdom can’t do better. The quality of life features are too much to ignore, unless of course you didn’t give totk a fair chance
@@minecrafter3448 My guy you’ve been under every comment that doesn’t like Totk, just let people have their opinions and move on with your life
@@PixelPikmin I do this for entertainment in case you couldn’t tell. I argue with idiots, idiots team up with each other and repeat the same brainrot on loop, I keep responding until they just stop bothering and shut up, and then I find a new idiot to repeat the process.
Sometimes I have a civil discussion, you’re one of the good ones. (I think, if I remember you correctly)
But most of the time I argue with the most childish “people” to ever grace this rock.
@@minecrafter3448you’ve got a point. The only thing I thought it lacked was a new surface to explore. Still a 10/10.
I enjoyed breath and tears but have no desire to replay either of them, whatever a replay constitutes.
Man... I wish I could write scripts like this. You're a master at explaining things (and making it interesting!!)
Thanks bread
@@J0J0Jetz You have exceeded my abilities. Go in peace to love and serve the Hylia.
Honestly it's not even that hard to make something that blends better the old formula with the new one.
Just throw more traditional dungeons mixed wirh the new dungeons, it's not that hard to make the game have a few dungeons that can be progressed in several different ways and have puzzles that uses the game's gimmicks in a way that is more complex than the stuff you see in the game's tutorial
Then make the side quests have engaging characters and storylines with proper rewards even if they are just making a random NPC achieve something nice, MM did this greatly, also make the map have random mini dungeons and etc.
Put random minigames that make you get something and interact more with the world, i'm not a fan of fishing in games but it's extremely weird how the newer Zelda games doesn't have them considering that this was one of the series tradition and a thing you can see even on games like Nier Automata.
I liked BOTW but TOTK barely felt like a new game and more of a glorified DLC with a wacky G-Mod mechanic so people could build stupid stuff and share on social media and the next game really needs to improve a lot on this formula.
I think that recall was definitely more game breaking then building in tears, and hopefully they bring a little more of what we love if we do get stuck with another open air game
there was no cycle lol. people said the game was disappointing in many aspects from day 1, actually before day 1 since it leaked 2 weeks early and people were talking on forums, reacting to live streams with disappointment.
this is what happens when you surround yourself in positive echo chambers, you make up scenarios
TOTK was the highest rated video game of all time on opencritic when it released and even now, after a full year, it's settled at number 4, only beaten by Baldur's Gate 3, BOTW and Mario Odyssey. That's not a positive echo chamber, that's near unanimous agreement from fans and critics alike that the game is excellent.
The people who say that the game is bad or disappointing are and always have been the minority, no matter how loud they become.
@@Ted_Curtis ok? And the ‘zelda cycle’ thing is a minority too. Being a minority doesn’t make the complaints or points any less valid lol
@@Ted_Curtis Yeah just like the vast majority of people like fast food and eat candy for dinner. That doesn't make it good, it just means they are mindless consumers. Im willing to wager the vast majority of people didnt even finish TOTK, because nothing felt rewarding enough when you can just craft an air bike and break every puzzle.
@@KyngD469 Enjoying a piece of media that the vast majority of people say is good doesn't make you a mindless consumer, neither does disagreeing with them make you any smarter. It's alright if you didn't enjoy the game but to say that the only reason anyone would is because they're either stupid or didn’t actually play it is a very short sighted and arrogant way to view anything.
@@Ted_Curtispeople consume incredibly stupid content. Look at the current state of music. Just because something's popular and just because people say it's good doesn't make it true.
I think a lot of people wanted that magical experience of discovery from playing BotW for the first time with TotK. But if you played BotW you are not going to get that feeling because it’s a game that builds on the last one with the same world and base mechanics.
But personally, while playing I was able to separate my nostalgia and think if I had played TotK first, how would I feel. I’d still have that sense of discovery and the new mechanics, the added content, etc. would have blown me away even more than BotW. It’s actually created a problem where I’m not sure if I can go back to BotW when TotK exists. It’s BotW but does almost everything better and then some.
I played TOTK first and can tell you as 1st time experience with Open World Zelda, it's just so much worth it. Of course BOTW is still really, really fun, but I'd give it a 8/10 while TOTK is a 8.5/10, story could have been better.
Seeing your tierlist I would love your thoughts on Link Between Worlds
mmmh i can't remember nobody complain about Twilight Princess or A Link beetween world. Maybe it's because the criticisms are real and people are free to talk about them only after the hype is over so they don't get insulted all the time? I've played all the Zelda games, this was truly the first one that disappointed me so much that it pushed me to talk about it online. at the beginning I was insulted badly but as time went by it softened up. And I don't think the next game will change my mind about totk anyway. I don't think so because considering the direction the series has taken, it's already a big deal if there won't be procedural dungeons in the next Zelda.
I don't remember any complaints about A Link Between Worlds, but Twilight Princess definitely did receive quite a lot of complaints especially before Skyward Sword came out. A few that I can think of at the top of my head were that its visuals were ugly and dull (especially because of the gloom in the GCN and Wii versions), that it was the easiest Zelda game, that it was an Ocarina of Time clone, that the Wolf Link sections were terrible and killed the game's pacing (especially with the Tears of Light quests), and that the game was quite handholdy. By the time I entered the Zelda fandom, Twilight Princess was considered by many to be the worst Zelda game (or at least the worst 3D Zelda game)
This mostly applies to 3d Zelda, and people absolutely complained about twilight princess. It was proclaimed edgy and unoriginal right up until around the “breath of the wild is overrated” era.
Calling these THINGS “criticisms” is an insult not even game critics deserve. It’s unfounded whiny noise backed up by nothing but a whole lot of ego. Not a single totk hater has ever considered anything beyond their imaginary little reality that the game is bad. If they did, they would of course come to the conclusion that the game is actually quite good. I’ve seen people unironically try to argue “story sucks so 4/10 game”
I’m not going to try to argue about how good the story is, since I haven’t researched what makes a good story and can’t make a fair substantiated claim about how whether the story is actually bad. However, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt, after analyzing it from every angle, that a bad story means almost nothing. This comment has gotten long so reply if you feel like arguing over that.
@@minecrafter3448 you're joking, right? the story is the least of totk's problems.
We are talking about a game that introduces 2 of the ugliest maps I have ever seen in an open world (the sky, made of empty islets, visually all the same and copy-pasted, and the depths: a desert with a single biome that has no nothing interesting or unique other than the first 10 minutes you get into it),
throughout this recycles the same map from the previous game. everything feels like it has already been seen, like shrines or caves. Not to mention the dungeons, which do not present unique rewards or unique enemies, have no structural complexity and are just a bunch of puzzles concentrated in the same place. (put bokoblins on a boat and call them pirates? and you have the nerve to sell me this stuff for 70 dollars?)
A variety of enemies that I would define as embarrassing. In my game I found 4 stonetalus crowded in the same area. And I honestly don't understand how anyone can claim a miracle with this game. they did nothing but add crafting to botw, effectively making it a very common open world.
I've never had to hoard materials to break rocks in a zelda and I don't want to. And then finally the story: tell me what is the difference between watching videos in the game or watching them on youtube? they have no effect on the game world and are only passive. You go to one place, press play and then go back to playing as if nothing had happened. It's perhaps one of the worst narrative systems I've ever seen in a video game.
The ultrahand allows you to build many different vehicles but none of them have any real use, they only serve to waste time.
The combat system is broken and has not been improved by botw.
Everything about this that isn't physics is mediocre and feels unfinished.
I can't go into detail about every point. but it really has a lot of problems. Above all generated by the name it bears
@@ShadowWizard224 Even BotW's memories didn't do it for me. The memories are completely disconnected from the game world and feel more like an optional collectable.
All they need to do is segment the progression like they used to do, the "metroidvania" style progression Zelda basically pioneered.
Start by having the dungeons be a Requirement again. The fact they are optional undermines the experience significantly by having the entire game be optional content if there is virtually nothing that builds up to the finale.
Then, don´t give us all of the abilities at the start. Either give them within the dungeons and build the entire dungeon around that ability, or hide the abilities in the world like ALTTP, and have them be required to enter and beat the dungeons. Hell, have Climbing be an unlockable ability too. That would make the player feel an insane sense of reward, just like obtaining the Paraglider.
Basically, go back to Zelda 1, where the Triforce pieces were mandatory to enter the final boss, and some of the dungeons required the items from other dungeons. That has been an integral part of Zelda since the NES Zelda all the way to Skyward Sword.
Its ironic I even have to say "go back to Zelda 1", since that's what they did for BOTW, and yet they missed one of its more integral parts. This design philosophy of having certain areas and things unreachable or innacessible until you obtain the means to do so incentivises exploration and created anticipation and reward. Its why Metroidvanias are so beloved.
Better progression would result in a better experience, and a better story structure. It's a win all around.
I don't understand the need for completing stuff in any order you want but Link Between Worlds did it pretty well without compromising what makes a fun Zelda game. Have major story beats happen after beating x amount of dungeons.
@@Roflcrabs ALBW did a great job with it, yes. They should learn from that game's progression
I hope they put both of the formulas together next time. Open world, linear story and traditional dungeons (return dungeon items too).
I'd also like to see a more in depth combat system, maybe even return the magic meter
Breath of the wild had flaws and we all hoped that nintendo would make a new iteration of it that fixed those flaws. A better designed smaller world that was a lot less montonous with something resembling a linear structure.
Instead they pushed harder and doubled down on what made breath of the wild great and bad.
The cost of the mechanical richness of the world and all the crazy things that came with it was the narrative, the level design and the gameplay. So we had high highs and low lows with this one.
But seeing as how nintendo seems to have achieved what they've been wanting to, a dynamic world focused on organic discoverable interactions with many things to learn, now defintely seems the time to improve on the flaws we've had with the format for so long. And it seems echoes of wisdom may be exactly what that is.
The second half of the first paragraph is possibly the most pathetic and shameless “I want an ocarina of time remake disguised as a new game” plea I’ve ever seen. You don’t want anything remotely similar to breath of the wild, don’t pretend you do.
@@minecrafter3448 Damn this kid has some issues
@@scratch2086 I have a whole lot of issues with “people” like this trying to remove my favorite game formula off the face of the earth
@@minecrafter3448 I certainly don't. I want less open world games, not more.
@@shagohad3 those are self contradictory statements
to me it seems like nintendo thinks what fixates people on the new zelda formula is the sandbox aspect, and twice in a row now have they thrown away making a polished exploration experience in favor on some crazy sandbox mechanic. All i want is for them to take the open world formula and fix its issues, and create an open world with great storytelling, and amazing unique stuff to find all throughout the world. That is why people loved botw, and their criticisms stemmed from the issues with the content, or lack thereof, in the world itself. But instead, they seem to think the fans are captivated by the sandbox stuff, which for me at least (and from what ive gathered many others) is just not the case.
Exploration without sandbox is google maps.
The sandbox mechanic... well in all honesty part of what botw so enchanting in the first place was how mechanical the world was. Temperature systems, physics systems, the way your abilities could organically interact with the world, grass could be set on fire, trees could be cut. Tears of the kingdom doubled down on this and to be honest, if you go into the game purely just to experiment with the sandbox elements to find the limits of the system it's a pretty fun and rewarding time as you teach yourself things. The game has MANY shortcomings but the sandbox elements carries it by a sizable amount. The issue is that it's intrinsic, and players who actively play to mess with it have more fun rather than players who stick to the korok shrine enemy camp grind.
Though will say it is my hope that we've reached the pinnacle of sandbox gameplay, so that future titles will instead try to rework the organic sandbox into something more structured with better narratives, level design, stories and combat.
TOTK is a rough diamond and they just need to polish and cut it into something better.
This was not the cycle for windwaker. It was considered not god from the get and then a console generation or so later it go love for how it visually aged?
A good model would be a hybrid model like GTA: You have to advance the story to open up certain areas. Another thing that would help are optional dungeons that are smaller but still open but also have shrines available. The required dungeons would only be accessible when certain conditions are met.
I think it's just disappointing as a follow-up? BOTW had some lore hinted/unexplained that felt like it's been either dropped, or at least ignored for the approach TOTK went for.
Here is my analogy of TOTK
I give you a plate of super delicious food that is so Amazing that you gobble down the WHOLE pile of food as fast as you can and beg for more. That was Breath of the Wild.
Since you want more SOOOOO badly, and you're jumping up and down and hollering for more, I Then make another whole pot of that same food, but this time I add some extra spices to give it a little more flavor.
When it's done, I put TWICE AS MUCH OF IT on your plate as what you had the last time!!!
Then you start eating this food, and YES it is Better than before, and about 1/3 of the way through this pile of food, you are full. You just cannot eat anymore, but its SO good that you still want more.
BUT, you keep eating and eating and eating because you want to eat all this deliciousness. It's just obligatory to finish! So, you save it for later and eat more for the next meal, and then the next, and then the next...it's still delicious! But after a few days of eating the same leftovers, you suddenly realize you are repulsed, cannot eat another bite, and never want to see that food ever again.
THAT is what happened to all of us.
Outside of the basic story, TOTK is impossible for most people to finish, but we all kept trying anyway.
Just about the perfect metaphor
Keeping the food analogy going, as someone who hated Botw the other Zelda games all felt like delicious, well sized meals that didn't overstay their welcome. Botw felt like a spa pool filled with spaghetti with one small bowl of pasta sauce and meatballs mixed in. So much bland, boring nothingness for hours on end searching for anything substantive.
Totk feels like that same spa pool of spaghetti but now it's 6 years old with a bit of fresh parmesan sprinkled on top.
@@Roflcrabs That bad huh? There's always going to be at least one episode of any series that isn't for you just like with foods.
@@winterrain1947 right and of the 20 something Zelda games on consoles and handhelds I've either loved or liked the them all except the last 2.
@@Roflcrabs Other than the Seasons games, I hated every single Zelda game that was for the DS or the 3DS. Remakes included. I think handheld game is just not for me. I hate playing the Switch without being connected to the TV.
I have never once changed my opinion on the games long after. BotW and ToTK ai didnt like from the start. The second game even more so. Zelda died after 2013
Go play echoes of wisdom when it gets realesed and tell me if zelda really died cuz im seing her being the protagonist for once.
It's not a cycle. Totk left a bad taste in my mouth when I was finished with it. Idk
It doesn’t suck now, it sucked the moment it released.
@@Mangapan Yeah, this has nothing to do with “the Zelda cycle.” It has to do with the fact they took six years to re-release the same exact game again for ten dollars more.
@@Mangapanion know bout that, botw was amazing except for the dungeons and bossfights
@@7milesdavishow is it the same game? Even the main map shared between it and breath of the wild isnt the same with plenty of areas being completely changed by The fallout of the falling sky Islands and several years between games.
Two games being in the same engine and having similar maps doesn't make them the same game, not if you're looking at anything past surface level
@@nigeladams8321yeah right people be saying same map same game same mechanics like bruh did you play botw again confused it was totk idk what people be talking about
For me the “Zelda Cycle” is basically the Zelda series version of the “it’s made for kids” excuse that people use to justify a game/movie’s criticism. There are some cases of it actually being a thing but for the most part it just feels like an excuse. I don’t hate the game, just find it pretty flawed. It would be like a 5/10 or maybe a light 6/10 for me.
If you like the game, more power to you 👍
Tears was the best bad game I’ve played. Had fun but came out disappointed, Played 80-100 hours, but I don’t ever want to play it again, and don’t really think about it except when I’m reminded. Which signals to me it wasn’t worth all that time, I’ve played life changing games that I think about almost daily that are ten or less hours.
exactly my experience. the only thing i remember is climbing and diving to the sky temple, and diving into the volcano, and diving to the last ganondorf fight.
I think that any human being would get bored to play a game after playing 100 hours of it and if they didnt they have an obsession.
Already hated it since it came out, literally couldnt finish the game.
why'd you buy it
@@Regigigas_YT you must not understand that people can fall for the hype of the trailers, pre-order the game, then when the game finally releases, we experience the truth of its mediocrity.
I let the final trailer fool me into thinking this was gonna be game of the decade, but once I actually PLAYED it, it was a different story. It's no different from looking at a menu at a restaurant, seeing a picture of a meal that looks potentially good, and ordering that meal---but once you get the meal & taste it, you realize it tastes like cardboard.
@natesamadhi33 I respect your opinion, and yeah, I have felt like that for plenty of games. Like Minecraft Dungeons for example.
@@Regigigas_YT I bought iy cuz they sold me with the sky stuff, but that was really terrible, and almost all of it. Breath of the wild had a better purpose, I was expecting answers on this game, which there wasn’t
Same here. Very little changed. Didn't bother finishing. 😐
my biggest issues are:
- most fusion weapons and shields are ugly af. they only work for their mechanics; there should be a good balance of aesthetic and mechanic.
- it completely butchers the lore that every other game in the series worked incredibly hard to build. Might as well have just started a completely new series.
- repetitive gameplay; The bane of interest in a game
- dungeons are incredibly bland(in botw as well). One of the things that i found incredibly charming about the “classic” games (like oot, mm, etc.) were the unique visuals, soundtracks, and bosses in each dungeon. the more modern games… really lack that kind of difference.
I've seen people say that the open air formula has already gotten more stale than the classic formula ever did.
2 games over 6 years vs more than 10 games in over 20 years? This fandom has some truly insane people.
I think it has gotten stale to an extent, but I don't think it's more stale than the classic formula ever was.
But one sold 50 million copies between 2 games and the other sold like 30 million between the ocarina games. Not including remasters
Because the classic formula still allowed for innovations. OoT, MM, TP, and WW all follow the exact same formula but with the exception of OoT and MM all of them are completely different barring the basic structure of the game.
BotW and ToTK are pretty much just the exact same game. And ToTK was 70 dollars… despite not being worth that much at all. Should have been 40 to maybe 50 dollars at most.
Such a narrow point of view. Each traditional 3D Zelda has a good, unique story. They have interesting distinct characters. They have amazing dungeons and different items that help you progress as the main character. Progression, tight design, good characters, and good stories are harder to get tired of than a game where it's strongest point is exploration, especially when that exploration exhausts itself 2 hours into the game. (Most likely after playing for 2 hours you won't really see much of anything new.)
Except it didn't start two games ago, it started around 15 years ago or so when bland open world games became the industry standard.
Totk is a good Zelda game just definitely not the best. I'll leave it at that 😅
See this at least is an acceptable take but omg the hate for this game is blown out of proportion 😭
Its a good game sure but Zelda died after A Link between worlds
Is a decent game but a terrible zelda game. 2 different things.
@@theblackmoonrising It isn't hated nearly enough
@@KyngD469 See guys that's your problem
This is the humble opinion of someone who has only played BOTW, TOTK, WW (didn’t finish it), and TP (didn’t go far).
Classic-style Zelda games have never captured my heart, so when I heard BOTW was going in a different direction I was intrigued. When I played BOTW, I loved it. I thought it was the best game ever made, and to a certain extent I still think it is. Sure, it has many, many flaws, but it was revolutionary and it tried a lot of things. It succeeded in some, it failed in others… but most importantly, it laid the foundations for a great sequel which could’ve been the true best game ever made, at least for me. What killed TOTK wasn’t the game itself, it was the duty it had. TOTK is at the same time both a completely different experience, and the same exact game. But what’s worse is that it didn’t build on BOTW’s excellent foundation. It disregarded BOTW in all ways possible. Qualitatively speaking, TOTK is just as good (or bad) as BOTW, with some improvements here and there, and some downgrades here and there. However, as a _sequel_ , it doesn’t do anything. I think this is the reason many “TOTK haters”, including me, are coming out. We have enjoyed the game, we have replayed BOTW, and we realised that the games have no connection whatsoever. This doesn’t mean that TOTK is objectively _bad_ (although it’s not all that good either), but because it wasn’t a revolutionary game, and it had the chance of learning from BOTW’s mistakes, we can’t use the same excuses that work with BOTW.
Anyway, this was my 50c, peace.
As a long time Zelda fan I don't consider Botw/Totk Zelda games. They're too dumbed down especially in the puzzles and difficulty and the content is too watered down and repetitive. You should try finishing one of the older Zelda games, they're more challenging and constantly throw new content at you rather than patronizingly patting you on the head with menial rewards for solving the most mindlessly easy puzzles that half the time involve putting balls in holes like some kind of lab rat trying to get the cheese at the end of a maze.
Twilight Princess is probably the most palatable being a newer entry, Wind Waker is good but can be pretty slow. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask are S tier imo but admittedly it's hard for people to appreciate them retroactively but once you adjust to the pace they're amazing. All good games though, you just gotta be patient with them. They aren't going to shower you with pointless rewards like korok seeds and disposable weapons with this constant positive feedback loop. If you venture off in any direction in Botw/Totk and you'll just find moblins, bokoblins, lizalfos and a mindlessly easy shrine puzzle, do the same thing in those older games you'll actually be met with something new. The games are smaller but they don't waste your time.
The content in Botw/Totk is genuinely less than those older games, they just copy paste the hell out of every asset in the game creating the illusion of content. They're both 20 hour games padded out into 60+ hour games. Aimlessly running across a lifeless barren map isn't content, it's just wasted time.
@@Roflcrabsabout lab rat thing they did it in the old games too you would've found some strage secret thinking ohh heart piece istead it was a freking rupee
I've said this before, but TotK felt like I was looking for something new, and constantly being confronted with sameness (koroks, shrines, story structure, dungeon terminals, dumb sign guys, etc.). It really made me doubt this new direction with the way puzzles became obstacles. Interacting with the fragile weapons also made me wonder how thought out the weapon stats were, because whether you create something weak or strong, it doesn't matter because it'll be destroyed in a few swings. The disposable aspect of everything (including builds) and the endless quantity of junk of you can carry is unappealing to me. I find it baffling that anyone would not understand the value of limitations, but I guess it's probably easier for devs to have almost everything free of curation since they don't need to worry about progression like they used to.
I was doing a marathon of all 3D Zelda’s on switch recently, and I just couldn’t play Totk again. Dropped it after like 4 hours. There felt like there was nothing to do in the overworld besides go to monster camps and beat up monsters or go unlock more light roots in the almost copy paste looking depths. The sky and depths in general lack content, with the reused Hyrule feeling like it has absolutely nothing new besides the wells. The story is once again told through memories, making the game feel less engaging. There feels like there’s no stakes. While Botw was a kingdom hanging on by a thread, with the calamity always looming over Hyrule Castle, Totk just has the castle floating just because, like it’s not even used for anything except a Phantom Ganon boss fight. The main objectives are just the same as Botw, going to the 4 corners of the world and helping their people with a specific problem that ends with a dungeon. The dungeons are barely improved from Botw, all feeling like 4-5 shrines put together, besides the lightning temple. The sage abilities are all very situational except Tulin’s. The ultra hand mechanic makes the game feel more like Minecraft than Zelda, and that’s from someone who still plays Minecraft. Totk had so much potential, I mean the sky’s above AND the depths below Hyrule? But this game feels more like a Botw mod with Minecraft mechanics and some bare bones new areas.
For me it was how disjointed the story felt.
It’s literally the single most linear story in the Zelda series so far, the pieces are labeled as “#1, #2, #3,”
All the way to #18
@@minecrafter3448 It's not linear
@@minecrafter3448 Now if only the story played out that way instead of 1... 8... 12... 17... 4... 2 etc. Etc
@@minecrafter3448 Have you... never played LoZ:TP or LoZ:SS? Both have extremely linear stories. As a fan of both games I specifically remember them being absolutely panned for being linear, younger me couldn't escape the negative opinions about them being linear. Gaslighting isn't a good look for ya.
@@minecrafter3448 it’s not linear at all. In botw, it made sense to find the memories out of order because you weren’t trying to figure out what happened in the past, you already know what happened. In tears, you can find a memory of someone dying who you’ve never even seen before. It’s so non-linear that it actively fails
I think the my biggest issue with tears is that there are too many balance issues. you spend way too much time exploring the depths, which are emptier than my soul, and not enough time exploring the majorly hyped sky islands. The hoverbike almost ruins the fun of building vehicles entirely, and fuse is only useful with materials. Attach a giant spike ball to a stick, whoop-dee-doo. +5 damage. Silver party hat? +30
It doesn't suck now it always sucked... It's just been covered up by deleting bad reviews on metacritic and also they either paid someone for fake good reviews (look at the amount of "I registered to write my first single review which is best game eva" reviews) or they were just saved by the fanboys or new players who never played Zelda before BotW ... When the game released there were also tons of "this game *****" threads on reddit... It not complete crap but at best a 7/10 if not only a 6/10...
The thing with the Zelda Cycle is that it won't apply to BotW/TotK. I guarantee you. The change was way too drastic.
Unlike with Skyward Sword, which is still mostly traditional in terms of its design. TotK and BotW completely threw everything out the window.
The Zelda Cycle only happens when people don't give a game a chance or get mad and quitting at the beginning of the game, but learning to love the game after actually giving it time. You could give BotW/TotK 300 hours and you effectively wouldn't be much farther than you were at the beginning of the game (you get all your tools at the very beginning of both after all).
"sucks now"
Good one 😂.
Here to waiting for the next open world zelda that be 100x better simply to having a fresh new hyrule and less copy and paste 🥂
Idk echoes of wisdom
It's the spectacle to earn those views what matters. New videos keep coming out and yet no one actually comes out with anything new to critique.
I still don't much care for botw, or skyward sword. Twilight princess is better than OoT, but Majora's Mask is in another league, and can't be compared to anything else the series ever had to offer. Also link to the past is objectively more open than LoZ1.
I liked all the Zelda titles, including BotW, hate TotK with a burning passion 😊 it is awful! Hated it from the moment I finished it, which was 3 days after it came out, rushed to finish it, while trying to avoid aaaaaall of the game ignoring BotW and acting like BotW had never ever happened. What a joke of a game 🤦🏻♀️
me too xD BotW was good and would have been perfect with music and better dungeons. TotK was just a lazy rehash in so many aspects...
@@wendigo2k absolutely 🤦🏻♀️
My thoughts exactly
Yeah we should've waited another 7 years yeah rushed
The whole "zelda cycle" thing pisses me off because
1)its not unique to zelda at all
And 2) its just used for fanboys to dismiss any criticism and refuse to belive that people can not like things
I feel the same way about how people will use the honeymoon phase to disregard any of the game's achievements and people's great feelings towards it, but ultimately it just comes down to the message being conveyed.
@@speedude0164 never seen anyone do that tbh
@@bagelenjoyer3437 Really? All the time I see people talk about fans of the game being blinded by hype and shilling for Nintendo, as well as highly over-exagerating how many people turned on it after the honeymoon phase.
Oh, it's real alright. I've seen it happen with LoZ:TP when I grew up with it. People talked mad smack about it back then, echoing the words of the worst Game Grump and every posh b4stard singin the idea of "non-linear > linear". Now, more posh people wanna pretend like they're geniuses for saying what me kin were saying back in the day.
I've never heard anyone say the Pokemon, CoD, Mario, Mortal Kombat cycle. It's just Zelda.. and now it's ruined.
I think that the open air can work if they give it a story that’s actually good
Skyward Swords problem was the lack of an overworld not the motion controls
I don’t think there’s any fatigue in the open air formula
The problem was Totk reusing the same map
There’s fatigue in exploring the same map in over 8 years.
Totk is a great game imo but it would have been much better if it was an all new original map.
Exploring botw’s hyrule for the first time was the main appeal of botw and that was the novelty that made the weaker dungeons or story more tolerable
I love Totk either way it’s just that I kinda understand why people would hate it tbh
I don’t think the same map is the issue, it’s how it was used, or more accurately how it wasn’t.
Almost nothing of note changed on the surface aside from Lookout Landing and Tarrey Town, and the things that did change were barely impactful. No towns changed significantly, Castle Town is still rubble for some reason, no new settlements popped up and no ruins were rebuilt.
You’d think that Fort Hateno would be restored, or that Bolson/Hudson Construction would do more than make a schoolhouse and a racetrack in the six-ish years between the games, but the land is nearly the same as it was in BOTW.
Not that they did nothing, but it was a missed opportunity and I’m sad they didn’t take a bit more time to develop the overworld a bit more
@@Rocco049 Totally agree. It was an unprecedented opportunity in my opinion. They saved untold amounts of development resources by reusing the map, they could've put that into populating with more meaningful stuff to set the game apart. Botw lacked most man made structures, so how about a ton of construction has taken place since last time? There a new monster fortresses and settlements instead of just pretty much, nature still overrunning everything. Idk, even though it just feels like there wasn't even much of an attempt to even change up the general themeing compared to the first game.
Nah I had fatigue 10 hours in. Running on flat green textures fighting the same copy pasted moblins bokoblins and lizalfos for 60+ hours isn't my idea of good content.
Yeah like the sky island and depths dont exist
Aonuma's "I don't get why people want to go back to a kind of game with more limitations" is so baffling to me. Limitations are a fundamental necessity for any game. Turning on a god mode cheat might be fun for a bit but it gets boring as soon as the novelty wears off. Being completely open doesn't lend itself well to an engaging experience. The fact that he seems to not understand this is concerning...
Bloodborne is one of my favorite games and I love how if you can't beat the boss or an area tough sh*t.
I don't think open world is the problem. The problem is reusing the exact same ideas that have been used in previous games to the point of copy pasting.
@@anibalhyrulesantihero7021 reusing assets in games is fine to a point but Botw/Totk totally abused it. Whether you're on a snowy mountain or sunny beach you're fighting the same 3 enemies, moblins, bokoblins and lizalfos. There aren't any enemies unique to just one area and subsequently everywhere just feels the same. Totk is worse because it copy pastes enemies across games. "But Rafael, Majora's Mask copy pasted assets from Ocarina!" Yes and that game had an entirely new map and was made in 18 months, not 6 years..
@@Roflcrabs Yeah. TotK copied literally everything from BotW to the point that it feels like the exact same game down to the presentation.
Feel like if they make a hybrid concept, an open world with closed areas, like how Eldin Ring is. That would solve it’s problem cuz now you can have a sequential story and still have that feeling of freedom
Imo, the next Zelda game should have the philosophy of “balance”.
Both sides have strengths and weaknesses, linear provides storytelling and great puzzle design whereas open world provides a sense of freedom and creativity.
Whether that be an Elden ring approach where the world is open and dungeons linear. Or (and what I think is probably a better idea) expand on that freedom ALBW had but more open, tackle dungeons in any order, or sets of dungeons if that’s too difficult for puzzle creation.
Bring rental items back (now for free!) and if you want that item permanently, clear the dungeon that holds it.
Have some areas blocked off unless you have a certain item (no major places though, more-so stuff on the side like caves)
Make puzzles have 2-3 solutions, not as limiting as 1 solution, but not game breaking and quality degrading as having like 20+ solutions to one puzzle.
I could go on but other ppl have went into more detail about how this approach could work so I’ll leave it here to make sure this comment isn’t 2 pages long lol.
I think BOTW was a nice departure from the Zelda formula that could have been built upon, but instead of building on the things that were good about BOTW, Tears built on the things I saw as failings of BOTW and neglected its strengths
Tears of the kingdom builds on everything breath of the wild did. It’s unbiased, everything is corrected based on FAN critiques. Things fans had problems with were fixed. If what you didn’t like wasn’t fixed, you weren’t loud enough.
@@minecrafter3448 The dungeons, mediocre and repetitive rewards, enemy variety. These weren't fixed no matter what you say. Totk doesn't have good lore, story or atmosphere, botw does
@@prettyoriginalnameprettyor7506 I'm sick of people saying that TOTK has a bad story when it delivers some of the best narrative sequences in the entire series. The opening scene; the ascent to the Stormwind Ark; the first descent into the Depths; the lost Goron kingdom; the Ancient Waterworks; Mattison's goodbye; the assault on Gerudo town; the final memory; pulling the Master Sword; the Lost Woods; Phantom Ganon; Dragonhead Island; the Construct Factory; the descent through Hyrule castle chasm; the final boss and the finale. All of those moments easily eclipse the highest points of BOTW in lore, story and atmosphere and that's just off the top of my head.
Personally as a long time fan of Zelda that started with Ocarina of Time I absolutely disagree I absolutely loved Tears of the Kingdom for me Breath of the Wild was a disappointment do to the lack of anything unique in the game the world felt filled with reused ideas like all 4 divine beasts feeling like the same dungeon or all for bosses being blight ganons and all the weapons and items just being bland copy pasted assets that don't do anything interesting as well as the map lacking any depth at all but Tears of the Kingdom fixed all of these problems for me, the new dungeons are a lot more like the older zelda dungeons but introduced into the open air format now sure they could be better but they are far better then the divine beasts and and they fixed the weapon and item problem with the fuse mechanic so you can make your own unique puzzle solving tools and weapons and they fixed the map depth issue by adding caves, the sky map and the depths and the final boss fight with Demon King Ganon as well as the acquiring of the Master Sword was the absolute best in this game... Now sure overall I would say the story isn't as good as what came before it and the dungeons still have more room for improvement but in terms of gameplay mechanics and cinematics this might be the best so far in the series I never had this much pure fun with a Zelda game
True thats what i call a criticism and not this crap trend of game bad dont buy
I can’t believe I’ve never seen your content before! Your editing style is ADDICTING to look at. I wish you much success, and great video! 👍
I’m not sure why are you, personally making a video calling out the Zelda cycle when you literally admit yourself in your list that you think TOTK is a bottom tier game and the worst 3D Zelda like I guess I’m a little confused why you’re even acknowledging the cycle if you yourself the exact same way?
He said he loved Skyward sword but TOTK is still higher than it. I think people just have a strange approach to tier lists.
You imply that the open world formula has already gotten stale only two games in. Linear 3D Zelda needed 5 games to get to that, and we still haven't seen the full potential of the open world formula.
TotK is the Majora's Mask of this type of Zelda having reused assets at the same console's last hurrah, imagine the next open world Zelda on the next big console with a new world twice as big as before with issues from TotK becoming obsolete.
I don't think the formula is stale, but the world is. A game all about exploration of the world requires new world. Otherwise it's replaying the same game and that changes gameplay style from exploration to efficiency, which is not supported well by TotK.
Yeah Majora's Mask was made in 19 months though and features a whole new world with new music, enemies, npcs. Totk felt like it was made in that same timeframe but had 6 years to cook.
@@Roflcrabs that's because game development takes longer in general for a console like Switch compared to N64
Don't bother reading the rest
TotK technically still has all that in one way or another, the world isn't new new but the depths and the sky islands along with everything different on the surface is still note worthy. There's new music but it's few and far between, though most of the game is ambient anyway so it shouldn't matter much. There's a good amount of new enemies including new minibosses. There are a lot of new NPCs, of course they don't reach Majora's Mask quality but they're good for the type of game TotK is.
@@scoffeex1740a few floating rocks, 3 new enemies and a barren underground section. Riveting.
@@Roflcrabs pfft, be more positive dude.
Is the game not fun or are you nitpicking problems to convince yourself it's not? (I get why it wouldn't be if you were constantly playing BotW right before it, though that's not intended)
I feel like chalking it up to “the Zelda cycle” is a bit disingenuous, like if some of the issues are only issues bc of the cycle.
Nobody sane wants to completely go back to the traditional formula, but it’s not like this new one hasn’t gotten a bit stale-ish. I think part of why that’s the case is because we’ve had ~7 years and only two Zelda games have come out (no, HW doesn’t count, put your hand down!)
this creates a situation where people have been eagerly waiting for “the next step” by playing botw over and over, and when totk came around and felt too similar is some aspects, some people were rightfully upset, thinking “we waited 7 years for this? It feels they put all their work into ultrahand” (which might actually be the case, that’s concerning tbh)
Seriously? You’re just going to pretend this isn’t the Zelda cycle? This is exactly what happens. Everyone loves it for a few months, nostalgics spark an unfounded hate trend, and everyone brings up completely invalid “criticisms” to drag down the game’s reputation. The result is a potentially endless cycle of propaganda, peer pressure, and mindless hate. The only things that have been found to stop it are ports to much later consoles and hate towards an even newer game that listened to the “criticisms” of the previous game. I’ll elaborate in the next reply because UA-cam likes to delete my comments. Don’t want to lose too much at once.
Ocarina of time of course started it. It’s the baseline, and people to this day pretend it’s a perfect game, in spite of how poorly it aged. Windwaker was a sort of warmup. It immediately split the community, though the people that loved it at first overwhelmed the haters. A while later, the supporters quoted down and the haters were louder than ever. The result is twilight princess. Twilight princess was unanimously loved at first, praised for being dark and a return to form, before being deemed edgy, unoriginal, and much later, (after the release of skyward sword) formulaic. Skyward sword released, and it tries to be as quirky and bright as possible. It uses motion controls in every possible way and uses much lighter tones. A few years later everyone hates it. The motion controls are restrictive and intrusive, and the linearity even more so. Breath of the wild comes along, everyone doubles down on this. A few years later, a small group of nostalgics begin to form a “breath of the wild is overrated” cult. This cult uses skyward sword hd to boost the public opinion on traditional Zelda, praising the linearity as a more refined experience than open world can provide. They also pretend that those awful stick controls are any better than the motion controls. This group gains traction. Tears of the kingdom releases. The nostalgics, after the overwhelming praise dies down around 5 months after the game releases of course, spark a hate trend. They make sure not to specify exactly why they hate the game so they can team up with the “70 dollar dlc” hate group. They ALWAYS make sure to cower behind the “it’s my opinion, and by unsubstantiated opinion is just as valid as your heavily researched and supported opinion” invincible shield. The two hate groups join, and make so much noise it creates a heavy amount of peer pressure, like smoking ads 70 years ago. If you aren’t hating the game, who are you? You aren’t a real Zelda fan, this game sucks. The cycle continues, and attention is brought to it by the game awards. Hate for the game peaks in December, shortly after it loses the game of the year award. It declines slightly afterward, and has been stagnant ever since. That is the tale of the Zelda cycle.
@@minecrafter3448 I’m not saying that the Zelda cycle isn’t present for this game, but I’m also not gonna sit here and let people say that it ALL because of the Zelda cycle.
There are genuine criticisms to be had about the game such as, the lack of good storytelling, the unfinished state of the sky islands, the lack of more meaningful content in the depths besides dungeons, the dungeon design, the bland feel of exploring the near same world, puzzles being to easy because of zonai devices ( the argument of “just don’t use it” is generally flawed, people naturally choose the path of least resistance), etc.
@@pubertdefrog I’ve seen 3 valid criticisms of this game, they’re all fairly minor, and for one of them I am still the only one that has noticed it. The sage system was identified to be inefficient and clunky from the beginning. The memories are a problem not for the traditionally suspected reason but because the game doesn’t tell you the story is linear until after you get one of the memories. Finally, the hoverbike is a flaw because it mostly trivializes building anything else. For me I actually see that as only a positive, because it gives me a benchmark for building effective machines. If it’s better than the hoverbike, it’s a success. I’ve made 2 machines after around 10 hours of experimenting that are superior. However, I understand that most people don’t want to spend that long building a good vehicle. Anything else I have analyzed to death and found to be completely invalid.
@@minecrafter3448 ok, I’m glad the game was fun for you. Utilize the building mechanic to the fullest!
But I’m noticing in your argument that you immediately say these criticisms I bring up are invalid, why is that? I’m curious what counter arguments you have.
What are you talking about "only one new original map" botw was original when it was released. Just because it was reused doesnt make it original.
He means the dephts, which isn't original either.
I just hate the story and how it nearly ruined BOTW’s
I startred to have a gradual hate for this game as I kept playing more of it. It just sucks. The reusing of botw's map was the smoking gun that completely killed the game for me. Not many reasons to explore the map when the "changes", if you call them that, are so damn boring and minimal. Like oh wow, zoras domain's water is temporarily brown, so cool. The new areas like the sky islands and depths are so fucking boring too. Jesus the whole game was a complete slog to get through
Also felt like it insulted the player. "Oh wow, you defeated 5 lynals? OK, here's a reused dlc asset from the first game as your reward." Actually pathetic
Loved BotW, it’s also kinda nostalgic, but I played the tutorial section and loved it lol
Only problems:
-not enough sky
-story kinda repetitive and you aren’t involved
Still 10/10 to me, better mechanics than BotW but I do miss that lonely feel of the game. Wish there was a new surface but beggars can’t be choosers.
my opinion on totk is that if it had released instead of botw then it would be the best zelda ever. but because botw exists and already set many of the staples seen in totk, it kinda falls flat in many areas because we’ve seen it already
I'll never forgive totk for the amount of times it tricked me into thinking that something interesting was finally going to happen.
Story is bad, Fs with pre-established key lore aspects, absolutely shatters all the Master Sword's reputation, unga bunga buff Dorf with little to no ambition other than "me strongest there is" uninteresting, nearly everyone forgot who you were despite this game taking place a mere 4-6 years after Wild, Rauru existing is an insult, no Fi, no breaking of the Demise curse despite it being falsely hinted being the case what with all the Skyward Sword PR this game got (I distinctly remember Skyward Sword being advertised as heavily linked to TotK somehow which, again, is misleading as on Nintendo's part), no dog petting, no hookshot spiderman swinging with the physics being suuuuch a driving factor in these newer Zelda games, no underwater exploration instead a damp dark smelly overgrown cave can't see jack, COLLOSAL missed opportunity to hitch the princess with her handsome knight in shining armor, no stakes since Zelda's sacrifice was reversed giving the story little to no agency or consequence, Link as a protagonist felt nonexistent feels like everyone else was the star of the show not the guy who's saving all their 🫏s, no Link backstory before any of this went down aka no Arryl 2 or Granny 2 aka NOT WIND WAKER, didn't make cry like Twilight Princess, dungeons are STILL NOT dungeons (pulling a couple levers to open a door and then be treated with literally the same copy-paste cutscene at the very end with each champion? Yeah naw), sky islands hardly anything worth noting although they are pretty asf to look at, I was expecting a totally NEW revamped endgame super Saiyan master sword golden tier 4 legendary new hilt new everything but naw same with a scar and less powerful...
As a game, sure, it's leagues above BotW but BotW will never be topped as a one-in-a-lifetime *experience*
TotK was an overblown $70 DLC and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Mid.
yep yep yep i agree
Most of that is perfectly valid wants. But we were never breaking the Curse of Demise for one reason. It’s not a curse in the traditional sense, it’s a promise that evil will always exist and fight against the light. But yeah, Fi not afraid least showing up as a silhouette in one of the Master Sword cutscenes was kinda sad.
I agree with almost everything you said here, especially Zelda's 'sacrifice'. I felt like that was what the story hinged on, like that was its biggest selling point, and the buildup and execution was honestly amazing, especially since the Light Dragon was one of the first things you see in the game, like, you're looking for Zelda and she was right there all along.
..And then all of it just gets completely reversed and she doesn't remember any of it, pretty much taking away the one genuinely good thing about the game's story, which leaves everything else, which is only decent at best.
Underwater exploration was the thing I was the most excited for, especially since there was a Water Temple. Why would you include a Water Temple without water exploration? There's no way they couldn't have made underwater exploration work alongside building boats, or alongside the depths being a thing, especially given the amount of time we had. We were just robbed.
I kind of disagree on the part about Ganondorf. Heavily disagree, actually. There's more nuance and deeper motivation in his Japanese lines that the English localization ruined. He talks a lot more about wanting to return the world to the way it once was in Japanese.
The best example of this is the line he says right before fighting Link. In English, he says "It would have been more... Satisfying to overcome a worthy foe." while in Japanese, the line is (more roughly translated ofc) "The ones from the past still had their sense of fighting spirit..."
Basically, he's pissed off at Hyrule (and Rauru specifically) because there used to be more monsters running around everywhere, and people had more conflict in their lives and were overall hardier and stronger, but when Rauru showed up and sealed all the monsters away and everything became super peaceful and prosperous, that kind of strength disappeared. There's more to it than that, what with Ganondorf's stubbornness in accepting change ties into why just one Secret Stone made him so incredibly powerful, but it would take 20 more paragraphs to explain.
He's probably not as deep and fleshed out as, say, Wind Waker's Ganondorf, but I do prefer him over OOT or TP's, and don't think he's uninteresting at all.
Also what's your deal with Rauru? I didn't think he was amazing but I did enjoy him, and he was definitely one of the more fleshed out characters TOTK introduced.
@@carnage0685 my gripe with Rauru was my initial reaction to his claim of being "the first king of hyrule" but now I understand that he isn't literally the first. There were more Hyrules before that furry bastard. No way in hell he's the first.
Plus he got a hell of a lot more screen time than the protagonist himself, the guy you play as and grew up with. Totk felt like it was Rauru's game instead of Link's lol, when in the past it was all ABOUT Link. Wind Waker and even more so Twilight Princess. I actually even respect and admire TP Link quite a lot. None of that was felt in TOTK, he was more of a side character, reacting to things. I hated that.
@@Giggles_iJest Ohhhhh, yeah, I was wondering if that was the case. So it wasn't the character himself as much as some of the implications they made about him.
Also yeah you're right, it DOES feel more like Rauru's game than anyone else's, especially Link. I never liked BOTW Link, but he's probably even WORSE in TOTK. It's also horrifically stupid that he doesn't tell anyone about Zelda even after he finds out. I found the cutscenes before I found all of the temples, and having to pursue a Zelda I knew was obviously fake was just.. Horrible. It completely slaughtered any and all immersion I felt.
@J0J0Jetz Nice Video! I Still Really Enjoy Playing Tears Of The Kingdom! 😉
(I was randomly gufted a membership!)
Edit: What did I do to opt in to get this?
I don’t hate Zelda’s new open world but making a rpg where a weapon brakes in 3 hits is diabolical and something that made me step away from tears of the kingdom I understand having a weapon with 100 or maybe 50 durability but never just 3 hits
This is the cycle for basically any blockbuster movie or game these days. Personally, I think this is the result of mass Schilling (is that how its spelled?).
I’ve always disliked Tears purely because of how easy it is to streamline it. At a certain point, it feels like I have to severely limit myself and what I can do in order to have fun, but that in turn makes the game drag since I’ve imposed so many restrictions and the only thing keeping them down is myself.
That must explain why I like it so much.
I didn't cheese anything nearly at all. I used builds, but made absolutely sure to explore, fight, and do quests as intended. Just as I did before the terrible day I got the master sword in botw; I kept all my hearts less than 7 and I maxed out my stamina asap.
I must say that currently this feels like it is technically the greatest game ever made. It is so technically impressive that I'm actually hurt and disappointed by this reaction people are having. The amount of blood seat and tears poured into this game seems evident to me. It seems so close to perfect for what it does.
That being said, the game is somehow not at all my favorite. It is only technically the best to me for being so great at what it does.
Its what it doesnt do that makes it disappointing. Uf they keep this formula, they have to find a way to reincorporate elements of the old games. Oot, Majoras Mask, Windwaker, TP did a few things too well for it to be forgotten. It's tough, but clearly, based on thos reaction, they have to figure out the solution to this challenge quick!
That’s… not a problem. The developers knew they couldn’t appeal to everyone with every little thing, so they made the genius choice to let people just.. skip the things they don’t want to do. So little of this game is actually required, that if you actually skipped everything you didn’t need to do you wouldn’t have any fun. Solution? Play the game. 🤯
@@minecrafter3448 it's a lot easier said than done.
I mean, look - unless you're someone who is intrinsically motivated, it's really hard to find a reason to take the slower and scenic route. If the game wants you to get something done, a lot of people will find the most efficient and most accessible way to do it. This wouldn't be a problem if the most accessible way was, say, really concise and difficult to pull off.
Instead, all you need to do is attach two fans to a steering stick and you can fly around the entire map at your leisure. When you know that option exists, it's REALLY hard to motivate yourself to do anything else.
@@2c2bpolitics-ce-gate3-4 I completely agree with you on your first two points. When you take your time with the game and experiment with everything, it truly is an absolute marvel.
My issue is that you're given a bit too much freedom with this technology. Now, that isn't to say that too much freedom is a bad thing, but... let's take this scenario for example.
Let's say you decide to do the Rito quest last. You have plenty of experience with the game and can tell that the way up to the Stormwind Ark will be daunting. You're well accustomed to messing around with all of your Zonai devices, so you know what you can build and what is the most reliable way to accomplish different goals
Do you A: Take your time and go through the ship-jumping puzzle as the devs created
Or B: Use some sort of flying device like rocket shields, a hoverbike, or something else entirely to skip the whole sequence and finish the job in nearly 1/4 the amount of time
Realistically, a lot of players will use option B. The game just gives you so much to work with and doesn't consider that it breaks a lot of the design of each dungeon, location, and so on. Here's another example of this
You wanna get to a plateau that's really far from where you are because you think there's something cool on it. But you also know it will take a while to get there and you're a little impatient. Do you
A: Take your time
Or B: Run to a skyview tower that's only thirty seconds or so away, launch yourself into the air, and propel yourself with Tulin to get to the plateau quicker, skipping over anything that may slow you down in the process
Again, it's not as if everyone has a model of anti-fun, but rather it's that you have to MAKE yourself have fun that kills the game. If you wanna have fun, you have to disregard a lot of the tools you're given and take the slower route, which can be hard when you know those tools are RIGHT THERE and the only thing preventing you from using them is yourself.
@@sleeplessarcher the intrinsic motivation is wanting to have fun. Be honest, did you do even half of the puzzles presented to you? And when you did them, did you try to find a unique solution, or did you use the boring intended way every time?
The "Zelda cycle" isn't real. The honeymoon phase for TotK wore off after only a month or two. People have been vocal about the game's flaws for over a year now
Of course most UA-camrs know this but they have to play devils advocate for views
Exactly. The only people overly praising TOTK are/were UA-camrs and people who loved the building system but most people who expected more from the exploration and improvements on BOTW issues were left disappointed for several reasons.
TOTK feels more like an Open World AC game with G-Mod than a proper sequel to BOTW that took 6 YEARS
Ya best start believing in Zelda cycles Mr. Hatlen, I've lived one!
Refs aside, I've seen the Zelda cycle in me own time. I remember back when I was a kid who grew up with LoZ:TP and LoZ:SS and both of those games were absolutely panned online, and I had to live with people talking sh¡t about those games and about people like me who enjoyed them. Now, we have these namby pamby mfs coming in with posh accents saying "oh, those games are actually good and new new Zelda is evil and bad", actin like they're some kinda genius for saying what me kin were saying back then. People could have listened to us then, but no, they instead listened to the words of the worst Game Grump and formed a religion of the phrase "non-linear > linear". Now, people wanna try to gaslight my gen into believing that that never happened, but I say nuts to that.
Nintendo are absolutely going to continue with the open world formula, though likely making adjustments to it.
They’ll take notes from older games for sure, but there’s no good reason for them to pull a 180 back to the old formula.
Honestly I think every Zelda game is better than its predecessor to me except tears of the kingdom because to me it feels like a repeat. To a new player it could be good but after recency bias fades away after like a week for me it’s just lackluster
I just don't like open world games to the point I couldn't finish totk
The game is fine. The issue is you
@@magau3698 and? like, idiot i already said i don't like open world games and didn''t complain about the game in any other way. like this isnt a fucking "issue" its difference in tastes. did your idiot brain get fucked by stupid or something?
@@magau3698no….its not.
This is what I mean we can’t have opinions that aren’t positive, or promoting the product.
Then why did you buy it? It’s an open-world game. That just seems like putting yourself through a predicament that could’ve been easily avoided.
@@JacksonVoet because its zelda. its my favorite series, and when an open world game is good enough i usually dont mind. like the horizon games on playstation are some of my favorite games i just wish they werent open world. i wanted totk to be good enough for me to love it despite being open world
I think two things can be true at the same time:
TOTK is disappointing as a followup to BOTW.
TOTK, as a stand-alone game, is the best Zelda game we’ve ever had.
Agreed
Lmao no, that is highly subjective
I like to view TOTK as a different timeline thing kind of like how Age of Calamity was. To be honest I couldn’t care less about the story so that’s also another thing.
You are entitled to your opinion. Just know that your opinion sucks and it’s wrong.
I think, as a standalone game, Majora's Mask is the better Zelda game.
stuff like breath of the wild's better final dungeon doesn't save it over totk for me. ultrahand is the sort of thing i've been wanting since as far back as Twilight Princess.
as another commenter said, i think both the open world games are kinda meh. but i personally haven't felt that we've had a 'good-good' zelda game since TP - which i do love, still - it made me cry the hardest at the end. but on the critical side kinda find it just okay. and this is still one of my favorite media franchises
I finished both games and now i can't play either of them. TOTK made BOTW obsolete, but at the same time it disappointed me so much because it was just BOTW on steroids but lacking the exploration feel, the storyline, and it became far more repetitive than its predecessor. Rewards were better on BOTW, most sidequest aren't worth the time on TOTK. It's a dissappointing masterpiece.
I don't see how BOTW/TOTK saved Zelda from obscurity. They knew what fans wanted with Twilight Princess and it was proved sales wise. 3D Zelda was fine always selling 70% of 3D Mario and could grow healthfully if their choice was evolving Zelda gameplay instead of change direction in each entry. Look at From Software and Souls series, selling more than 20+ millions copy just by evolving Souls formula with a gameplay that has a greater entry barrier than any 3D Zelda game. If their choice was evolving over Twilight Princess we could have a 20+ millions seller that is true to Zelda gameplay nowadays, which is for me the only reason a gaming franchise should exist. I really dislike this idea of a gaming franchise being more about assets than gameplay.
With just how much LoZ's popularity has (rightfully) exploded over the past 7 years, it just makes me even more eager to see a return to form like with OoT. I want new fans to understand why the old games worked and how important things like story, lore, and dungeons are to this series. I want to see these games succeed in the current age of gaming, too.
At the same time, I'm still incredibly excited for Echoes of Wisdom. Not because you play as Zelda, but because I love the 2d titles, too, and it frustrates me when they get slept on. I mean, OoT is essentially 3d ALttP in a lot of ways. These games all feed into each other and learn from what came before. They always have.
I'm a bit scared about the sandbox aspects of Echoes of Wisdom, but I'm confident the game will be great nonetheless. 2D Zelda is harder to mess up.
Phantom Hourglass was my introduction to the Zelda Series and I love that game to bits. I've only played A Link Between Worlds so far which is my 3rd favorite Zelda game, and a bit of both Spirit Tracks and Minish Cap but I'm thorougly eager to discover Link's Awakening and the Oracle Games. 2D Zelda is so underrated.
@@poncho3326 I'm also excited, but I'm worried about the fundamental gameplay as Zelda. Sure swinging around a sword has been done in every game could do with an interesting change, but the echo mechanic looks like it could get old quickly. This is just what I've seen from the trailer though, I'm still pretty hopeful for it!
I remember playing "A Link Between Worlds" as a little kid on my Nintendo DS.
It was the first game that actually let me touch the background. In any Mario game I had access to, I could look at mountains and skies, but never reach them. In Spartan: Total Warrior (this one's for GameCube) I was very confined to a singular map. The Hobbit and James Bond (both are also GameCube) were close, too, but it didn't take long for their running around space to feel small.
A Link Between Worlds is by no means a fan favorite, and I hear it talked about very, very little, but it got me entirely enamored with the Zelda Franchise at a young age.
I could make the currency and do the puzzles and hone my skills at my own pace, and it fed a very healthy interest in exploration that rewarded me with actually letting me see what I was exploring! I loved it!
I took up an interest in the original pixelated games, and I loved them too (hard as they were to navigate) because they felt free in ways other games don't capture the same way.
Zelda has been an exploration and freedom-heavy game for years and years now. BOTW may have let you do things in your own order, sure, but this franchise has *always* been open, it was CREATED open.
That's what's *always* set it apart. This isn't nearly as new as a lot of people seem to think that it is.
My comment carries no hate or criticism, and it's not a rant or vent either, just a friendly reminder that BOTW & TOTK were not the first to be open air and shouldn't be taking that title the way that they are credited for. They highlighted it, but did not debut that feature in the slightest for the franchise.
No one's gonna read this, but thank you if you did! You have a good one! ❤️
Exactly thats the point