Recirculating shower for the WIN! Changing the filters is easy, fast (and inexpensive) a no spill solution is easy to fabricate when you don't close off your imagination to the possibilities. MOST IMPORTANT you can change water WHENEVER you desire. Take a 10 minute shower (normally consumes 20 gallons) and only use 3 gallons. Drain the water and use fresh 3 gallons for your next shower. You can have six 10 minute showers (6 x 3 gallons each time = 18 gallons) for the cost of one 10 minute shower that doesn't recirculate (20 gallons bye bye) ALSO of NOTE: A UV light should be used FOR ALL VAN showers regardless if they are recirculating or non- recirculating. Kills all bacteria, mold, fungus and parasites from water sourced while "on the road" and stored "in the van"
Totally what I was thinking recirculate the water for the one shower and get fresh water each new shower. Im in a skoolie so ill just put the filters under the bus let the water spill if it may lol I totally need my hot showers and thatll save me water for more hot baths 🙂
It's a good idea but it needs more development to be good for normal use. You still have to use it sparingly to get practical use out of it before the filters have to be changed. You can't lather up with soap like you normally would shower in a recirculation shower. So all the water you claim to save is lost on you anyway. It doesn't compare to using a non recirculating system. Also 10 minutes doesn't have to be 20 gallons. low flow showerheads and sink aerators aid GPM. You can bring that number down to 11 or 12 gallons per shower just from changing the showerhead. I'd rather use a 3-5 stage filter to filter water from more questionable sources like lakes, rivers, ponds or even puddles anywhere on the ground or the ocean so that finding more water is never an issue. I'd rather a layout that stores more water. But recirculating it is just too impractical right now.
I hear you - all concerns are valid. I just finished my recirculating system, and I think I've answered all your questions, but it was insanely complicated and fairly expensive. I do have a catch tub under the filters, the option of using the regular water lines and skipping the recirculating tank altogether, and it can be drained after every shower if you want. I'll be making a video at some point. Not for the faint of heart - it involves a ton of equipment, many motorized valves and electronics - but my love for a long warm shower in the morning is strong.
Looking forward to it! there's so much about recirculating showers that is still WIP - even in which the order in which the filters should be installed! would like to see your take.
I concidered long and hard whether to build a recirculating shower listening to both sides of the argument...I did install one, pre pump filter, carbon filter, 10 micron filter, 5 micron filter and UV filter and yes it takes maintenance. To offset the valid points about urine, fecease and soap scum....we use large wet wipes, BEFORE getting into the shower !! so we are clean, then we use the shower for a really good HOT RINCE using no products, we run the shower post showering (without us in it) so the catch tank goes through the filter system without picking up any body oils etc from us. The only issue we have is that the water can pick up a little odour after about 4 showers...I will try 2 carbon filters and a one micron filter to see if that helps. Would love to hear anyone else's system set up and experiences..
Hi George: I think your exaggerating the issues and problems, but here's an idea for you that I saw somebody else do. It requires a series of Switches and electronic ball valves, but overall once you see the system design, it's not all that complicated. I believe it fits into a 18-in square space about 6 in deep. Here's the general idea: You take your normal military style shower, rinsing off the crud and shampooing your hair. < 1 gallon hopefully. You install an electronic ball valve and just before that you have a tee. The electronic ball valve is normally open. This goes into your gray tank. When you are ready for your recirculating shower you hit a switch and close the electronic ball valve and the water is now redirected via the tee to your recirculating pump and a separate shower head. You run it long enough for the water to flow Out of the recirculating shower head, and then turn off the water from the fresh water. Water usage is between 3/4 and 1 gallon. Now, you can take your 20 minute or 1 hour long shower. When you're done you hit the switch again and the water goes down into the gray tank. So yes this probably takes more water than a standard recirculating showerm but the water is fresh each time. In this particular gentleman's design all is he used was a spin down filter of around 50 Micron to filter out the hair. There are other components to this, such as a heat exchanger, so that Water from the recirculating shower and never mixes with the hot water used for food prep. This requires its own pump. And I believe he also added a Anti-scalding valve. This way it maintains a constant 100 to 104° shower or whatever you set it at. It looked intriguing to me if you don't want to mess with all the filters and possible dangers. And really, you can buy a pur 3 in 1 filter which I believe is 10, 7 and 5 Micron in one filter, and Install a tray under that for changes. And I've seen UV filters the size of your hand that can handle up to 2 gallons a minute (Not cheap at about $450) but You can definitely go compact. And then there are also hot water heaters that are on demand. I'm not talking about the big monster 60,000 BTU models but a really small one. If you're only heating up a gallon of water it can do so quite quickly. So that gets down to one sediment style filter and one UV filter and then some kind of a spin down or pre-filter. The designs I'm seeing have gotten smaller and smaller. And if you're talking about only a gallon of water, even if you get say three or four showers out of it before you dump it that's pretty good. And remember, that Bill Gates build a toilet where the byproduct was drinking water. I think some of this is just a psychological barrier.
We put in a 'single use' recirculating shower in our MAN truck camper, and it works very well. You fill up the shower base with hot water (we use about 4 or so litres for a shower) and then the pump recirculates that through the shower head, so it's more like a bath than a shower. The only filter we have is a broad gauze type coarse filter to trap hair before the pump. You can have a good 5 or 6 minute shower, especially in warm climates. When it is very cold the water does start to go cold, so we add in another litre of piping hot water half way through. At the end of the shower, you let the water out down the drain hole. All this stuff with 3 filters and charcoal and etc is way too complicated, in my opinion.
What about a system that uses both a recirculating system and a fresh system combined? Have a long shower with a recirculating system using, say, 5 litres of water, and then when you're done, purge the recirculating water to the grey tank and switch to the fresh system to rinse yourself off. It would be similar to taking a bath at home where you'd sit in the bath and wash yourself, and then when you're done, jump in the shower to rinse off.
I've been pondering the logistics of a recirculating system that allows the user to direct the used shower water into a grey tank or back into the loop. Would be nice to disguard the soapy/dirtier water at the beginning of a shower, but then recirculate the water used after that. I think that would extend the filter cleaning, as you'd be passing mostly clean water through the system. All the soapy water at the beginning of a shower wouldn't be recirculated. For me, a long, hot shower is mostly enjoying the water after getting clean.
There are all sorts of configurations that make a recirc possible and practical. I haven’t heard anyone mention it but 3-way valves are a key piece of the puzzle.
My husband has been talking about doing one in our van and he watches you religiously since he found your channel so I'm glad to see you giving him the negative side to think about before we decide. 👍 -Aimee
I couldn't agree more with your arguments, George. Would be much better to develop a rain collection system than a recirculating shower IMHO. Keep up the good work!!
the hour shower principle is best, get rid of the water after it is used once, rather than a larger shower tank used for multiple showers. As for water spillage when maintaining shower, put filters in bathroom! Understand your other concerns, installed a shower carbonated filter mat with under the shower board - stops most even getting to filters, think aquarium, and can be washed or replaced with ease. I still enjoy taking baths too, with all that 'matter' in there with me ! PS Fresh urine is a sterile liquid, don't worry too much about that
Well said and totally true. I still installed one in mine and have a separate system to do the dishes and for drinking water. And i don't shower with soap, instead i soap myself before the shower using my separate system. I would not have installed a recirculating shower if i used it just as a normal camper van but i live in mine to not have to pay expensive rent, so it became a needed thing for me.
Thanks for this video. Im still debating on a recirculating shower. Not even for daily showers but just for after those hot and humid boon-docking days it just feels like I will be very grateful to have one. The releasing of water to change the filter is something I had not yet considered though! This video will save me a "doh why didnt I think of that" moment the first time I go to change them (if I follow through with this idea). Love all the new videos lately, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and making me look smarter to my family and friends :)
Totally agree, and it's so good having experts produce short videos explaining things like this, I'm going to have a van conversion created next year professionally and with this kind of advice/opinion it helps me make my decision. A huge thank you.
This would not be an option professionally yet, the technology is not mature enough. Too many unknowns and also who is liable when your user forgets to clean the filters and kills himself in the process, because that can happen!
Words of wisdom, thank you sir! As a future van lifer, I, 100%, appreciate your advice and would love any more wisdom you have experienced, and looking forward to my own to share. Bless you all.
Our shower system works better than expected. Yes, the filter change can spill some water, but that why we have a one piece rubber floor. Its all in the design and layout. I know if George sets his mind to it he could develop a superior system. Our system used 9 gallons, a lot of water for a recirculating system. Before starting the van build I prototype the shower system in my garage - yes there is a video of that. This is one of the problems I had to solve before starting the van - the boss wanted an inside shower!
Yes, I saw your shower video. I liked it. I know two solutions I saw on UA-cam for the maintenance problem: One with the filters in the shower cabin behind a panel. When you do the maintenance, the water will spill in the shower pan and will be drained in the drain that goes into the grey tank. And one with the filter manifold on a board, that can be pulled out on a drawer slider, so water will spill outside when you do the maintenance. I will go to your channel later to see how far you are now.
@@MelissaJohnson23408 I looked that up. It would not work for our use. Its basically a flat shower pan and a pump to recirculate the water. But if it works for you great....
Public showers and bathrooms are also gross, too. Flushing a toilet aerosolizes poop particles. Not many public toilets have lids. Hope everyone’s cleaning their shower flip flops after going to the gym. Plus bacteria can build up in shower heads. 🤢
Agree 100%. I have had to clean out the shower sump in our cruising sailboat many times when the drain get's clogged. It's one of the most gag-inducing jobs to do on a boat. I'd rather put my money and space into more water capacity.
@@MaunoKoivistoOfficial You are absolutely correct about the differences in maintenance. The point I was attempting to make (perhaps not very well) is that the grey water on the upstream side of the filters in a recirculating system is the same swill found in a boat's shower sump. Changing the filter elements is a very hands-on process and it is virtually impossible to avoid spills. Personally, I'd prefer not to handle it if possible.
Thank you, I have been really looking deep into the possibility of the recirculating shower in my van build and you have a very good point in your opinion and my mind is changed, more water capacity. Thanks, great videos and a joy to watch you,👍👍
That's a great perspective. I HAD an idea where I wanted to put the filters until you pointed out what happens when you unscrew the cap; didn't think of that. Undercarriage isn't as practical because I live in Germany with a proper Winter. More water capacity and the suspension to carry it are two upgrades I will make to my van. Thanks for the video. 😊🚚
The weight and space saved from the filter setup and spare filters vs the space and weight for the extra water and gray tank space is a a factor. Would just make a bigger water tank ok
Yesi understand your points and they are very valid , definitely changed my thoughts on my boat build shower. Thank you for sharing your thoughts they have helped.
I think if you treat the recirculating shower as a bath it's OK. First you go to the bathroom before so there should be no urine or fecal matter involved. My shower has 2 pumps, one to pull the water from the pan to the 2 gallon tank and one to pump the water from the tank through the filters, heat exchangers, mixing valve and out the shower head. I can take a hot shower in the winter or a cool shower in the summer for as long as I want. At the end of my shower I soap up, rinse off and pump the water from the tank to the grey tank. Each shower only costs me 2 gallons and the soapy water never goes through the filters. I figure if the filter system I have is good enough to transform lake or river water to safe drinking water it's clean enough to take a shower. Gotta be better than taking showers at a surf camp in Mexico where you have to keep your mouth closed. Cheers George, love your content and new vlogs. Your attention to detail (lighting, dialog) do not go un-noticed.
Anytime you are washing butts, the water will pick up fecal matter. That applies to swimming pools and hot tubs, all of them use chemicals to sterilize this. Ever taken a dip in a creek? Dog, deer, or ducks gone in it? Fecal matter again. Which is why there are UV-C sterilizers, to kill anything, including fecal matter, in stored or recirculated water. Compared to the grime in many public showers...my friend used a "clean" gym shower and it took him years to get rid of the nail fungus he picked up.
Use a neutralizing/biodegradable soap, shampoo, and conditioner. Make sure that they don’t use petroleum as an ingredient. Add 1 teaspoon of Epson salt to the water which will get rid of the soap suds.
Thank you! I'm adding a few upgrades to my 2016 van and the shower was a consideration. I think I'll stick with the simple shower curtain and tub method. It takes longer to shower but its simple and doesn't take up any room. I'll use my money elsewhere.
hahaha, thanks for your honesty! so glad 7'O savage recommended your channel. Such a relief to hear a sensible whole picture perspective! You are so right! i'd rather do a wipe down dry bath than feeling the yuck of cleaning out infested filters that would require a super long shower scrub down to remedy (all the while already dreading the next filter cleaning)🙂
Thanks, George! I've been debating back and forth about whether the additional costs would be worth it, but you just gave me something new to consider. I appreciate your valuable perspective.
I absolutely agree! In fact, I don’t want an internal shower in my van at all. After 24 years in the Army I’m very comfortable and proficient at using an outdoor shower, a sink shower or baby wipes. Additionally, that’s precious real estate that can be used for storage or something else. Spot on, George!
Every night I see a warter on a ground around my van it's accumulated from moistures in a air. It's quite a lots of amount if I think of it . I believe I can correct night dews and rain water to fill the little water reservoir tank. Then filter it out to recirculate. I'm confident about this.
I've had to maintain an inground pool and water chemistry for a while now so I've gotten use to all the caveats that come with it. I've been doing research and think a small sand filter that you can backwash (no touching any gross parts except a hose) with maybe one small filter, a UV light, and a bit of chlorine here and there will work for me. I have heard that sand filters catch soap scum much better. Also there will be no urinating (hopefully) lol
WOW YES! Such a great explanation, thank you so much for vocalizing this. We've noticed a huge uptick in the interest of this topic because of a few viral van tours. Awesome perspective that so many builders should think about.
I suspect that your homemade water tank has more dangerous plasticizer chemicals in it than recirculated shower water. Just sayin. . . Love your channel though.
Going through my van build now and although I am installing a retractable shower pan for occasional showers, my thought process was the same as yours about recirculation shower systems. My solution is more fresh water capacity and a larger sink in order to wash hair etc and take a "bird bath" in the sink between showers. I am installing a 4 stage filter for drinking water and I am dreading the filter changing schedule... Which is much less frequent than a recirc shower filter system would be. Well said and well thought out. You are a true craftsman and it is a joy to watch your videos because it all makes logical sense.
Showering and washing seem to me to be two different things. Stand under hot flowing recirculating strained then filtered water is suboptimal but better than not. Time to soap up and rinse, that goes to gray. A shower if managed with a good strainer pre filters and drain to gray for washing is actually better than a bird bath. Like much in life, it's dealing with the gray.. it's not all black and white. So I'm building my motorhome right now with a ditch the dirt water drain aka soap time equals gray tank, soak time equals recirculate. Top up the recirculate tank automatically and 100 gallons becomes 200 gallons equivalent without the weight or space. I'll let you know if my humble opinion works out. Love your "say it as you see it approach!" thanks
As a pipefitter/ plumber for 25 yrs I agree with you 100%. Clean water and sanitary sewers are the bedrock of our civilization. Thanks George love your channel!
Well I have to say, you've certainly swayed me. I was all for a recirculating shower, could have one for as long as I wanted etc.....but the cost, and the hassle 😳, yeah I just don't think it'll be worth it. I wonder, who has a shower every day anyways? Here in the UK we don't have vast open spaces of nothing like in the states so I can kind of see the reason there but here? I could fill my tanks virtually every day if I wanted and as I'll have a Truma combie boiler for hot water and heat I'd need another tank for the hot water for the shower. Yes, a system which would be nice if you're very off grid but for here and Europe? I think not.Thanks for a great explanatory video giving lots of food for thought, nice work.👍
Your spot on.... for those people saying it's not a hassle those filters that he showed in this video are huge and they are a pain in the butt to change it actually comes with a giant plastic wrench tool just to undo them.
That's what I saw when looking into it. I'm looking at something like a dishwasher type of shower where you have recirculating hot water that only goes through a mesh filter then when you're done dumps to your grey and switch to about 2 gallons of fresh to rinse off and clear the systems. It's good enough for our dishes, it's good enough for our skin. You just have to deal with a mesh basket and maybe flush the pipe system with vinegar, or whenever to get the grime out, now and then. I mean, look how baths are done, you soak in soupy and dirty water, then rinse off.
First let me say all of your concerns are valid. Having said that let me tell you what you should consider that would change this dramatically. First this shower should have A STANDALONE tank, thats right, no black and grey water tank. This will be just for the shower and nothing else. Second always use UV lights in your filtration systems to kill off most of the things that the filters dont. Third if your filters are spraying you when you change them you have a bad filtration system, good ones dont do that. Last but not least consider putting in a heating element so it can heat the water up inside and you dont have to keep looking for hot water first.
I'm looking for a box truck to build out. The shower was one of those I was thinking about. I've seen a ton of videos. I'm on the fence. Water storage wise I currently have and may or may not use 4- 55 gallon plastic drums. I'd like to have water storage for at least 100 gallons. I also have a 6x12 enclosed trailer I was planning on doing something with. Maybe just water storage. After seeing this video I'm definitely going to now consider a separate toilet room and shower with a recirculating set up or just combine them like I sort of planned.
I confess I hadn't thought of if that way before. Recirculating showers sounded brilliant to me the first time I heard of them. But you've persuaded me to agree with you. Thank you for doing so...humbly. :^ )
Thanks again for your opinion Sir. I believe the same. I have 130 liters of fresh water. We need to refill every 6-7 days. Why should I bother with filters. total waste of time and money
Agree also been watching videos on van life and see people promoting theses. Not to mention the amount of space you forego having a shower in you van. Join a 24/7 gym with showers then you are good and better off.
But isn't that what a BACKFLUSH is for? Having a long, hot water, maybe even with two people, is one of the greatest luxuries in a van! Cannot wait to see your take on it!... if you do do it. And yeah, just don't urinate in a recirculating shower. 😂 (although it will all be cleaned up except for salt.) Not saying there is no maintenance, but for me it is worth it. And ofc it helps if there is a little "drain hole" in the bottom for easy cleaning, and if a watertank leaks.
I think it is ok if you use the water for 1 shower then replace it. You would need minimal filtration then. Wouldn’t be much different from taking a bath. I was thinking you could build a very simple one use recirculating shower by simply having a deep shower pan and putting a pump at the bottom to pump it up to a 2nd shower head. Then rinse with clean water at the end of the shower and drain.
I fail to understand why having a shower is such a problem I have one, I use it, it works fine I have less space than just about anyone reading this George makes sense Keep it as simple as you can It’s more reliable and there’s less to fix
interesting. I watched a vid where the husband and wife said they are generally happy with their recirculating shower---and they thoroughly went over how they have to do a bit of weekly maintenance, a slightly deeper 'monthly maintenance', and they found that it can't be used like a home shower. They stopped using soap (were going to look into some 'natural' types of soaps) and the wife said that she did her hair in the kitchen sink. So they could generally get a satisfying soapless shower, but obviously that's not the same as a sudsy home shower.
I have the beginnings of a design for a recirculating water system (entire water system, not just shower), but it would not work for a van. The system would take up too much space. It would work for an RV or travel trailer camper. It would have inline filters, rather than canisters, for sediment filtration, with a back-flush system to clean them out. There would of course be UV filtration and a few others in place to ensure the water comes out clean. In addition to all of that, there would be a separate vapor distillation system that the entire reservoir would empty into to be distilled into pure water (completely potable), which you could do after every use, or every couple of uses. It would drain off the first and last half gallon to come out of the distiller, to be replaced with fresh water. This would allow you to extend the life of the water in the system to at least 2 weeks, if not longer. All you would have to worry about is replacing certain filters that could not be back-flushed.
Valid point. The dilemma exists. Maybe the only way it would work is a very technical design of an auto flush filtration system, where the filters do not need to be removed. I have never heard of such a system to date. I have, however, read on the net about an extraction system that installs in the camper, and actually extracts moisture from the air and fills the water tank slowly. If this were available today somewhere out there, it would be a huge bonus to the water storage issue.
All large commercial installations use a “backwash” system. Just a few manual valves is all you’d need. You could either use the pump that’s already there or an external hose (supply), for instance when you’re in that campground that George says you’ll be staying in periodically.
A good option I've seen are micro-mist showers. Multiple sprayer/mister nozzles fed with straight hot-water to mist the head/back/front/waist, can easily be under 2L/m or half gallon. About the only downside is needing to make the vans HWS supply decent pressure and 60c-75c water. But at the end of the day, a "Navy shower" or "Dicky-Bird Bath" still get the job done for less than a bucket of warm water, and a couple of wash cloths. Hell, you don't even need a drain, just a towel to stand on.
100% agree. Recirculating the water is not the best idea. Although we have a shower built into our motorhome, we don't use it as installed, as you just shower until the water tank is empty! We have a 10L jerrycan fill it with shower temperature water and drop in a submersible Whale pump connected to the shower hose via some additional pipe with a non return valve. The 12V supply is wired through a waterproof switch in a convenient place. Turn on for 10 seconds to get wet, turn off, start soaping, a few seconds more water, more soap, wet hair, turn off, shampoo, then about 90 seconds to rinse off. Army style shower - simples.
Sure, it can be repugnant to swap filters, like you did for your home. The thing is, all that disgusting stuff that was in the filters would otherwise have been in *you* if it wasn't stopped by the filters... just a little bit of it at a time. But yes, one reason that I believe the only proper way to do a recirculating shower is to use the water only for one shower and then discard it is to keep the filters cleaner for longer. It may not be for everyone, but it saves water. As in, you can actually take real showers with a relatively small tank. That's pretty big. And, disgusting or not, we should really have nothing but recirculating showers in the home as well, and only composting toilets. Yes, more work intensive. Yes, filters can be repugnant. But Americans literally flush out billions and billions of gallons of fresh, clean, drinkable sweet water just on getting rid of their poop and washing themselves, which is 100% not sustainable in this day and age. At the very *minimum*, the shower water should be collected in a separate tank, and then used to flush the toilet, so you'd save some water. And maybe filtered lightly first. It could also be used to water a garden and so on. Right now, we're being disgustingly wasteful of water. But, I guess that's another rant, and not van related... either way, I'm a fan of recirculating showers. That's my opinion, and of course people can agree to disagree.
The idea of recirculating showers arent to wash with the same water for weeks. Its to allow you to have a 20-30min shower with 1 gallon of water and very little energy ( even a basic electric water heater would keep that water to temperature while you shower without much consumptioN). You can always dispose of all that after each shower. recirculating showers are substantially cleaner than having a bath which no1 is grossed out by. Not to mention that you can set it up to just shoot clean water at the last minute to "wash off your worries"
I concur with your conclusions and reasoning. We can't even deal with #2 satisfactorily. Probably costs more to replace filter media than to pay for a real shower.
Very nice video, i was actually thinking of putting one in our van, but after thinking about what you said, i decided to get huge water tank. 250L and i had a 18.9L water pump which i can have a nice long shower, but after a while i changed it to a 10Lpm pump which gives me even more longer time in the shower. Your right, we can plug into campsites and have endless shower with our instant hot water heater lol. I have my water tank inside the van under the kitchen, which determined how big our kitchen counter is (62cm wide) we are planning on changing that and getting a custom water tank which would go under the van and should be about 200-300L. We can then change our kitchen counter to 45-50cm which would open up more space for us to walk through in the van and should make the van feel more spacious :-)
Ii agree. If I had to choose between having a recirculating shower and a 25 gal fresh water tank or having a regular shower and using the extra space to install a 50 gal tank, I'd go with the later.
Thanks George. My idea of recirculating shower will never use the same water from one shower to the next. I just want to recirculate the same water in the same shower. This will allow me to have a longer shower without the disgusting reuse of the same water on and on. Every time I am done with my shower I want to press somewhere so that the water loop releases all used water. Next shower will have clean water again. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks in advance George 🙏
Sure, that would be acceptable. However, my main point was not the condition of the water, but rather, the disgusting routine of cleaning or changing the filter cartridges.
@@HumbleRoad sorry for my dumbness but when I recirculate shower the way I wish it means I do not need those filters. Water will always be clean. Imagine this. I want to shower normally. I turn the shower, get wet, use shampoo etc. All this water is recirculating. Then I want to press somewhere so the last portion of water comes not from recirculation. This last water as well as all the recirculated water from before will go off the drain. As in next shower the water will be again clean do I need to care about all the hassle of those filters and uv? I know it’s a dumb question but am learning now the how to’s and plumbing is my weakest skill by far 😀
I think your comments make sense when referring to the most common layouts that I see people use building but when done properly you start a shower with a few litres of fresh water which from there is constantly being cleaned by the filters (so its cleaner than having a bath) and when your done you back flush that water and any contaminants the other way out of the filters and in to the grey tank and your ready to start the next shower with nice clean fresh water and flushed out filters. You also talk about filter maintenance but again its in the R&D, done properly (back flushed regularly and the correct size and type of filters) filter maintenance is an easy and infrequent job. I like your videos and workmanship but I disagree with you on this one. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you too could design and develop a system that works and is easy to maintain.
Wow, you just me made think at a system in which you recirculate and filter the water for the first part of the shower (let`s name it Stage 1) in which you soap and rinse and then have a second stage of filtration for the "infinite shower" that uses smaller filters and that flow is used and reused until you select Stage 3 and than that water is used after the stage 2 filtration to flush the stage 1 filtration. I would use one of these filters systems combined with a reverse osmosis filter in a forth stage to take water out of the grey tank and filter it back in the main tank. I also recall seeing a video in which a guy lab tested the water and the results shown that the ammonia level were high after a few days so this systems need a ammonia filter and I also seen that there are some people trying to figure out filters specifically for the soap which will help a lot with the maintenance intervals.
I agree with you on this. When I first saw the crazy advanced system Advanced RV designed, I was all about it, but then I started wondering about the maint issues you just described. It's totally not worth the hassle for me. I'd much rather have 50 gallon fresh water capacity and just get use to 2 min showers. You save money on the water system and have less maint to deal with.
Unfortunately that two-minute shower will use 3.2 gallons with the most frugal usable shower nozzle I could find. It’s estimated that that’s also how much water you would use taking a navy shower. If you are like me and take a shower every day and don’t like the public options, that’s a lot of water. Just for me that would be 22.4 gallons a week. If you have a spouse with you, now you’re talking at minimum 44.8 gallons. That’s if each of you only takes one shower a day. It also doesn’t leave much water for dishes, drinking, or other before you run out of the 50 gallons and have to refill your fresh water tank.
@@TannyOHaley Not if you buy a switched nozzle which allows you to shut off the flow mid shower without messing up the temp. You don't need the water to be on the whole time, only to wet down and rinse off. The water should be off when you're scrubbing.
@@dlg5485 It may be easy for you, but with Parkinson’s fine motor movements (like switching the shower nozzle off and on) are a big problem for me. That’s not a problem for most people. I’ve read that a typical navy shower takes about 3 to 3 1/2 gallons of water. About the same as leaving the shower on for two minutes. Even prior to Parkinson’s over 25 years ago I couldn’t take a shower in 2 minutes.
Agreed specially if the idea were to clean and recirculate the soapy water. In my opinion for a more sustainable recirculating shower, be it at home or in a van, recirculation is only meant to happen once you have rinsed off from the soap. Then the loop can begin with only clean water on a clean body. This won't change the reality of the need for a regular filter clean up though, just push it further in time and make it somewhat less yucky, but the point is still valid. Up to now, the smartest, light weight, affordable, portable and easy to clean recirculating shower I have seen is to use a LifeStraw equivalent inline with an outdoor shower pump to recirculate the hot water from a water basin you step into after cleaning yourself properly.
George, filter's cups are made of acrylic... You can drill small hole on bottom and screw a small valve in it. So before removing a cup, you can open the valve and it drains all yucky stuff out. Then you unscrew the reservoir which will be empty at that point. Clean job. Cleaner than emptying a cassette toilet! And BTW, you DON"T have to save the water for the next use, you can direct it to flush a toilet - what a great concept of saving water and doing it a CLEAN way. Who said you have to flush toilet with precious potable water? Grey water will do better job - there is a soap in it, cleans the drain too.
@@HumbleRoad And pump the used shower water to flush the toilet too. In fact - all grey water should be directed to flush a toilet. How can you waste precious fresh water to flush frikkin' toilet, it's a sin! So you can boondock much longer then. Win win. Remember garlic and olive oil keep us strong! :-)
Dont forget the spray bottle from the dollar store! I like to put a few drops of castile soap and about 1c water, mist myself and wet the washcloth, wipe down, then use a second, spray bottle of clean water to "rinse" with.
George, I just read some of the comments and had this thought: how about a single use recirculating shower with one filter. 5 gallons that gets used during the shower and completely disposed of at the end. No storage.
100%, and to add to that I wouldn't want the complexity...if it breaks or it turns out you have significant bacterial growth somewhere because it was designed incorrectly (or using inappropriate components...normal water filters aren't meant for this at all) you could end up with a mess at best or getting sick. I feel the same way about overly complex hydronic setups. The simpler the better, and always take the view that once you are on the road you will appreciate that simplicity over extra luxury.
watching van life videos for about two weeks now, I discovered the system for this only DIY which makes not ideal as your video says. however, recirculating shower system is a nice engineering problem to solve as the solutions are out there from city wide water treatment and swimming pool cleaning solutions
Enjoy your videos. I have a Ford Transit high top for my business. I am looking to build a basic camper van, but it has to be removable, to put the van back to work after returning from 2 or 3 weeks on the road. Anyone have ideas of the easiest way to do that? I was thinking of making the wall, floor and ceiling of 3-4 foot panels that would connect together. I know they build homes using SIP's. I thought the same concept might work in a van. I was thinking something that might take 2-3 hours to assemble.
I'm thinking modular boxes made of 2x2 and 1/2" ply. Make modules, 2-4 for the bed, with drawers built into them and slats instead of ply on top, and a couple of 24" kitchen modules with doors and drawers with simple pinch catches. use bolts, washers and nuts through the 2x to brace them all together and figure out a way to attach to the side of the van like maybe a 1x4x8' strapping board to screw into. just use a waterproofed ply for a countertop, drop a sink in, and use a jug on the counter or stand for a gravity feed system into a (slightly larger) container directly below the drain. Maybe a module for the porta potty or bucket loo that could double as a seconary seating space.
Exactly my thoughts too! For every convenience, there in another inconvenience. I would not do it because of space & weight limitations. The idea of cleaning does not gross me out, but the idea of reusing dirty water does. Short showers are a luxury in a van and I'm perfectly happy. If I want water, I find a swimming pool. We have to conserve water anyway in CA and AZ.
You could take a shower and become "relatively clean", then hit the recirculating switch which will cycle this cleaner water for 10 or 15 minutes. Would that work?
I’m planning one now. What u say can be done. Or u could recirculate a nice long shower with say 3 gallons then dump it leaving clean water for next one.
These are the ideas I’m toying with. Mostly, I’m thinking of those winter months when I use a hot shower to warm up before bed. I’m not looking a recirculating shower as a hygiene thing and wouldn’t be introducing soap. Just minimize the amount of water I heat, but keep using it until I warm.
Im a process control/instrumentation engineer... recirculating showers do work, but they are complex and need a bit of automation involved with motorized valves that includes clean in place techniques (Pharma process do this all the time) and multiple pumps. A lot of the van recirculation showers I've seen on the net are to basic and high maintenance to keep clean. The key to cutting down on these maintenance is to have proper loops that automate these cleaning process (and it's not that hard to do). These cleaning technics will keep the filters last longer, cleaner and fresher with a push of a button. Van builders like to spend their dollars on priorities.... if showers are one of the top priorities, they need to spend more engineering and money towards that goal. Putting a series of filters/Uv lights in the loop will work (but will always fall short)... but instrumentation and controls (automation) is never on their budget.
@@HumbleRoad It is a complicated system, but for the user it doesn't have to be if you automate the process and that goes with cleaning it as well. You can have a clean cycle when plugged in using city water or using the vans own water (again only with a push of a button). Your van builds has everything it needs to have a robust recirc shower (long shower) and keeping it clean to a point that you won't be changing dirty filters only worn out ones. Builders are afraid of taking this system all the way to its fruition because of its complexity and high cost. BUT, the ones who really wants this setup (the customers) are the ones leading the charge. I see that you're in NJ, Im in Morris county. If ever you want to discuss the system more... hit me up with a pm. BTW, love your clean work.
The question is not how to take a shower but how to get clean with the least energy and water It’s all in asking the right question. Recirculating showers add complexity to what should be a simple task. Our question became how do we get clean with 2 gallons of water and we found we could do it with less and found a use for the waste water. Will put up a video on it in the near future.
Couldn't agree more,I have 41gallon water capacity in 3 separate tanks spread around my 3.5 tonne van, I can off grid for a week or so with hot shower when I need it and here in Europe refill and empty tanks without a problem,recycling shower is ok as a concept but has become a fad with van lifers,better to install filter system to take on river water if you really need to be totally off grid in my opinion
Recirculating shower for the WIN! Changing the filters is easy, fast (and inexpensive) a no spill solution is easy to fabricate when you don't close off your imagination to the possibilities. MOST IMPORTANT you can change water WHENEVER you desire. Take a 10 minute shower (normally consumes 20 gallons) and only use 3 gallons. Drain the water and use fresh 3 gallons for your next shower. You can have six 10 minute showers (6 x 3 gallons each time = 18 gallons) for the cost of one 10 minute shower that doesn't recirculate (20 gallons bye bye) ALSO of NOTE: A UV light should be used FOR ALL VAN showers regardless if they are recirculating or non- recirculating. Kills all bacteria, mold, fungus and parasites from water sourced while "on the road" and stored "in the van"
I was thinking 🤔 good 💡😊👍
I'm getting ready for my own build I will research your opinions. Thanks 🙏👍
Totally agree with you, Humble Road didn't think about that when he did this video.
Totally what I was thinking recirculate the water for the one shower and get fresh water each new shower. Im in a skoolie so ill just put the filters under the bus let the water spill if it may lol I totally need my hot showers and thatll save me water for more hot baths 🙂
It's a good idea but it needs more development to be good for normal use. You still have to use it sparingly to get practical use out of it before the filters have to be changed. You can't lather up with soap like you normally would shower in a recirculation shower. So all the water you claim to save is lost on you anyway. It doesn't compare to using a non recirculating system. Also 10 minutes doesn't have to be 20 gallons. low flow showerheads and sink aerators aid GPM. You can bring that number down to 11 or 12 gallons per shower just from changing the showerhead. I'd rather use a 3-5 stage filter to filter water from more questionable sources like lakes, rivers, ponds or even puddles anywhere on the ground or the ocean so that finding more water is never an issue. I'd rather a layout that stores more water. But recirculating it is just too impractical right now.
I hear you - all concerns are valid. I just finished my recirculating system, and I think I've answered all your questions, but it was insanely complicated and fairly expensive. I do have a catch tub under the filters, the option of using the regular water lines and skipping the recirculating tank altogether, and it can be drained after every shower if you want.
I'll be making a video at some point. Not for the faint of heart - it involves a ton of equipment, many motorized valves and electronics - but my love for a long warm shower in the morning is strong.
True dat! I think this system has merit and an individual choice. I'd love to check out your video!
Looking forward to it! there's so much about recirculating showers that is still WIP - even in which the order in which the filters should be installed! would like to see your take.
Would love to see that video!! I think the recirculation approach can definitely work with the right tweaks
How is the recirculating system going?
please make a vid! :D
I concidered long and hard whether to build a recirculating shower listening to both sides of the argument...I did install one, pre pump filter, carbon filter, 10 micron filter, 5 micron filter and UV filter and yes it takes maintenance. To offset the valid points about urine, fecease and soap scum....we use large wet wipes, BEFORE getting into the shower !! so we are clean, then we use the shower for a really good HOT RINCE using no products, we run the shower post showering (without us in it) so the catch tank goes through the filter system without picking up any body oils etc from us. The only issue we have is that the water can pick up a little odour after about 4 showers...I will try 2 carbon filters and a one micron filter to see if that helps. Would love to hear anyone else's system set up and experiences..
Hi George:
I think your exaggerating the issues and problems, but here's an idea for you that I saw somebody else do. It requires a series of Switches and electronic ball valves, but overall once you see the system design, it's not all that complicated. I believe it fits into a 18-in square space about 6 in deep. Here's the general idea: You take your normal military style shower, rinsing off the crud and shampooing your hair. < 1 gallon hopefully.
You install an electronic ball valve and just before that you have a tee. The electronic ball valve is normally open. This goes into your gray tank. When you are ready for your recirculating shower you hit a switch and close the electronic ball valve and the water is now redirected via the tee to your recirculating pump and a separate shower head. You run it long enough for the water to flow Out of the recirculating shower head, and then turn off the water from the fresh water. Water usage is between 3/4 and 1 gallon.
Now, you can take your 20 minute or 1 hour long shower. When you're done you hit the switch again and the water goes down into the gray tank. So yes this probably takes more water than a standard recirculating showerm but the water is fresh each time. In this particular gentleman's design all is he used was a spin down filter of around 50 Micron to filter out the hair.
There are other components to this, such as a heat exchanger, so that Water from the recirculating shower and never mixes with the hot water used for food prep. This requires its own pump. And I believe he also added a Anti-scalding valve. This way it maintains a constant 100 to 104° shower or whatever you set it at.
It looked intriguing to me if you don't want to mess with all the filters and possible dangers.
And really, you can buy a pur 3 in 1 filter which I believe is 10, 7 and 5 Micron in one filter, and Install a tray under that for changes. And I've seen UV filters the size of your hand that can handle up to 2 gallons a minute (Not cheap at about $450) but You can definitely go compact. And then there are also hot water heaters that are on demand. I'm not talking about the big monster 60,000 BTU models but a really small one. If you're only heating up a gallon of water it can do so quite quickly. So that gets down to one sediment style filter and one UV filter and then some kind of a spin down or pre-filter. The designs I'm seeing have gotten smaller and smaller. And if you're talking about only a gallon of water, even if you get say three or four showers out of it before you dump it that's pretty good.
And remember, that Bill Gates build a toilet where the byproduct was drinking water. I think some of this is just a psychological barrier.
We put in a 'single use' recirculating shower in our MAN truck camper, and it works very well.
You fill up the shower base with hot water (we use about 4 or so litres for a shower) and then the pump recirculates that through the shower head, so it's more like a bath than a shower. The only filter we have is a broad gauze type coarse filter to trap hair before the pump. You can have a good 5 or 6 minute shower, especially in warm climates. When it is very cold the water does start to go cold, so we add in another litre of piping hot water half way through. At the end of the shower, you let the water out down the drain hole.
All this stuff with 3 filters and charcoal and etc is way too complicated, in my opinion.
I agree. It's not that hard to keep it clean applying practical methods.
Hi David, that is exactly my plan. Recirculating for single uses. Still figuring how to make it happen. Any suggestions are most welcome 🙏
What about a system that uses both a recirculating system and a fresh system combined?
Have a long shower with a recirculating system using, say, 5 litres of water, and then when you're done, purge the recirculating water to the grey tank and switch to the fresh system to rinse yourself off.
It would be similar to taking a bath at home where you'd sit in the bath and wash yourself, and then when you're done, jump in the shower to rinse off.
I've been pondering the logistics of a recirculating system that allows the user to direct the used shower water into a grey tank or back into the loop. Would be nice to disguard the soapy/dirtier water at the beginning of a shower, but then recirculate the water used after that. I think that would extend the filter cleaning, as you'd be passing mostly clean water through the system. All the soapy water at the beginning of a shower wouldn't be recirculated. For me, a long, hot shower is mostly enjoying the water after getting clean.
There are all sorts of configurations that make a recirc possible and practical. I haven’t heard anyone mention it but 3-way valves are a key piece of the puzzle.
@@RustyCas999 problem is not in valves, it's all about water filtration.
Soap is the main culprit, I told you long time ago, you did not want to believe. I also pointed out that your design was very simplistic.
I never did any design. You must have me confused with someone else.
My husband has been talking about doing one in our van and he watches you religiously since he found your channel so I'm glad to see you giving him the negative side to think about before we decide. 👍
-Aimee
Hopefully he hasn't gone fanatical like me, I bought an Orange t-shirt for when I'm working on my van :)
Now he's got you watching too! Heh heh heh!
I couldn't agree more with your arguments, George. Would be much better to develop a rain collection system than a recirculating shower IMHO. Keep up the good work!!
Wow- so good to hear the maintenance side of recirculating showers. Thanks!
the hour shower principle is best, get rid of the water after it is used once, rather than a larger shower tank used for multiple showers. As for water spillage when maintaining shower, put filters in bathroom! Understand your other concerns, installed a shower carbonated filter mat with under the shower board - stops most even getting to filters, think aquarium, and can be washed or replaced with ease. I still enjoy taking baths too, with all that 'matter' in there with me ! PS Fresh urine is a sterile liquid, don't worry too much about that
I prefer a nice Cabernet to fresh sterile urine😊
@@HumbleRoad Strangely, so do I haha
and I never take a leak in the shower or drink my bath water, but seriously fresh urine is antiseptic
Well said and totally true. I still installed one in mine and have a separate system to do the dishes and for drinking water. And i don't shower with soap, instead i soap myself before the shower using my separate system. I would not have installed a recirculating shower if i used it just as a normal camper van but i live in mine to not have to pay expensive rent, so it became a needed thing for me.
I just love your craftsmanship!
Thanks for this video. Im still debating on a recirculating shower. Not even for daily showers but just for after those hot and humid boon-docking days it just feels like I will be very grateful to have one. The releasing of water to change the filter is something I had not yet considered though! This video will save me a "doh why didnt I think of that" moment the first time I go to change them (if I follow through with this idea). Love all the new videos lately, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and making me look smarter to my family and friends :)
A nice cooling shower on a hot day can be had with the outdoor shower. Just get more fresh water capacity and live the gentleman’s life!
Totally agree, and it's so good having experts produce short videos explaining things like this, I'm going to have a van conversion created next year professionally and with this kind of advice/opinion it helps me make my decision. A huge thank you.
This would not be an option professionally yet, the technology is not mature enough. Too many unknowns and also who is liable when your user forgets to clean the filters and kills himself in the process, because that can happen!
Words of wisdom, thank you sir! As a future van lifer, I, 100%, appreciate your advice and would love any more wisdom you have experienced, and looking forward to my own to share. Bless you all.
Since George has never used a recirc shower I dont think his wisdom comes from experience.
Just what he thinks. And he thinks highly of himself.
Our shower system works better than expected. Yes, the filter change can spill some water, but that why we have a one piece rubber floor. Its all in the design and layout. I know if George sets his mind to it he could develop a superior system. Our system used 9 gallons, a lot of water for a recirculating system. Before starting the van build I prototype the shower system in my garage - yes there is a video of that. This is one of the problems I had to solve before starting the van - the boss wanted an inside shower!
Yes, I saw your shower video. I liked it.
I know two solutions I saw on UA-cam for the maintenance problem:
One with the filters in the shower cabin behind a panel. When you do the maintenance, the water will spill in the shower pan and will be drained in the drain that goes into the grey tank.
And one with the filter manifold on a board, that can be pulled out on a drawer slider, so water will spill outside when you do the maintenance.
I will go to your channel later to see how far you are now.
Hah, your setup was one of the first I found when I started researching recirculating showers.
I just searched and found the LOOPZ shower it's portable and uses 1.6 gallons
@@MelissaJohnson23408 I looked that up. It would not work for our use. Its basically a flat shower pan and a pump to recirculate the water. But if it works for you great....
Public showers and bathrooms are also gross, too. Flushing a toilet aerosolizes poop particles. Not many public toilets have lids. Hope everyone’s cleaning their shower flip flops after going to the gym. Plus bacteria can build up in shower heads. 🤢
I appreciate your thoughtfulness on all van issues. Thanks for your insight!!
Agree 100%. I have had to clean out the shower sump in our cruising sailboat many times when the drain get's clogged. It's one of the most gag-inducing jobs to do on a boat. I'd rather put my money and space into more water capacity.
Recirculating shower systems don't require any maintenance that resembles cleaning the shower sump on a boat.
@@MaunoKoivistoOfficial You are absolutely correct about the differences in maintenance. The point I was attempting to make (perhaps not very well) is that the grey water on the upstream side of the filters in a recirculating system is the same swill found in a boat's shower sump. Changing the filter elements is a very hands-on process and it is virtually impossible to avoid spills. Personally, I'd prefer not to handle it if possible.
Thank you, I have been really looking deep into the possibility of the recirculating shower in my van build and you have a very good point in your opinion and my mind is changed, more water capacity. Thanks, great videos and a joy to watch you,👍👍
Short. technical, and to the point - good job.
Thank you George. I have never heard anyone else go over this aspect of these.
That's a great perspective. I HAD an idea where I wanted to put the filters until you pointed out what happens when you unscrew the cap; didn't think of that. Undercarriage isn't as practical because I live in Germany with a proper Winter. More water capacity and the suspension to carry it are two upgrades I will make to my van. Thanks for the video. 😊🚚
The weight and space saved from the filter setup and spare filters vs the space and weight for the extra water and gray tank space is a a factor. Would just make a bigger water tank ok
Yesi understand your points and they are very valid , definitely changed my thoughts on my boat build shower.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts they have helped.
I think if you treat the recirculating shower as a bath it's OK. First you go to the bathroom before so there should be no urine or fecal matter involved. My shower has 2 pumps, one to pull the water from the pan to the 2 gallon tank and one to pump the water from the tank through the filters, heat exchangers, mixing valve and out the shower head. I can take a hot shower in the winter or a cool shower in the summer for as long as I want. At the end of my shower I soap up, rinse off and pump the water from the tank to the grey tank. Each shower only costs me 2 gallons and the soapy water never goes through the filters. I figure if the filter system I have is good enough to transform lake or river water to safe drinking water it's clean enough to take a shower. Gotta be better than taking showers at a surf camp in Mexico where you have to keep your mouth closed. Cheers George, love your content and new vlogs. Your attention to detail (lighting, dialog) do not go un-noticed.
Anytime you are washing butts, the water will pick up fecal matter. That applies to swimming pools and hot tubs, all of them use chemicals to sterilize this. Ever taken a dip in a creek? Dog, deer, or ducks gone in it? Fecal matter again. Which is why there are UV-C sterilizers, to kill anything, including fecal matter, in stored or recirculated water.
Compared to the grime in many public showers...my friend used a "clean" gym shower and it took him years to get rid of the nail fungus he picked up.
@@lyfandeth yes my filtration includes a 20 micron, 5 micron filter and UV exposure to sterilize.
Use a neutralizing/biodegradable soap, shampoo, and conditioner. Make sure that they don’t use petroleum as an ingredient. Add 1 teaspoon of Epson salt to the water which will get rid of the soap suds.
I was wondering when you were going to address this. Like always your analysis is spot on!
Thank you! I'm adding a few upgrades to my 2016 van and the shower was a consideration. I think I'll stick with the simple shower curtain and tub method. It takes longer to shower but its simple and doesn't take up any room. I'll use my money elsewhere.
Great discussion- both from George in the vid and people’s comments from their experiences 👌🏾
hahaha, thanks for your honesty!
so glad 7'O savage recommended your channel.
Such a relief to hear a sensible whole picture perspective!
You are so right! i'd rather do a wipe down dry bath than feeling the yuck of cleaning out infested filters that would require a super long shower scrub down to remedy (all the while already dreading the next filter cleaning)🙂
Thanks, George! I've been debating back and forth about whether the additional costs would be worth it, but you just gave me something new to consider. I appreciate your valuable perspective.
I absolutely agree! In fact, I don’t want an internal shower in my van at all. After 24 years in the Army I’m very comfortable and proficient at using an outdoor shower, a sink shower or baby wipes. Additionally, that’s precious real estate that can be used for storage or something else. Spot on, George!
@Krister L after three tours in Iraq I can attest that you are correct!!
@Krister L I was never fortunate enough to take a bath in a creek during my career, but I did take a shower in the rain once … and it was glorious!! 😂
@Krister L Baby wipe = disposable washcloth :)
Every night I see a warter on a ground around my van it's accumulated from moistures in a air. It's quite a lots of amount if I think of it .
I believe I can correct night dews and rain water to fill the little water reservoir tank. Then filter it out to recirculate. I'm confident about this.
I've had to maintain an inground pool and water chemistry for a while now so I've gotten use to all the caveats that come with it. I've been doing research and think a small sand filter that you can backwash (no touching any gross parts except a hose) with maybe one small filter, a UV light, and a bit of chlorine here and there will work for me. I have heard that sand filters catch soap scum much better. Also there will be no urinating (hopefully) lol
I had these same thoughts and appreciate your candid point of view!! Agree with you 100%!!
Thanks for watching!
I couldn't agree with you more George, van life you're always on the move and eventually you wind up at a campground.
Excellent point, thanks for sharing. ....love your channel !
WOW YES! Such a great explanation, thank you so much for vocalizing this. We've noticed a huge uptick in the interest of this topic because of a few viral van tours. Awesome perspective that so many builders should think about.
OH, I was waiting for your take on the 3d printed, plastic welded super efficient Recirulating shower...DANG! maybe not!
I suspect that your homemade water tank has more dangerous plasticizer chemicals in it than recirculated shower water. Just sayin. . . Love your channel though.
Is HDPE plastic dangerous? It’s food graded. Post some verified sources proving your theory.
@@curlyhaircamping HDPE is one of the "safer" plastics, true. More likely, bacteria growth in stagnant tank water is probably a bigger issue.
@@KentLester People have been cleaning tanks with tablets for decades, I don't see any issues with that.
Going through my van build now and although I am installing a retractable shower pan for occasional showers, my thought process was the same as yours about recirculation shower systems. My solution is more fresh water capacity and a larger sink in order to wash hair etc and take a "bird bath" in the sink between showers. I am installing a 4 stage filter for drinking water and I am dreading the filter changing schedule... Which is much less frequent than a recirc shower filter system would be.
Well said and well thought out. You are a true craftsman and it is a joy to watch your videos because it all makes logical sense.
Showering and washing seem to me to be two different things. Stand under hot flowing recirculating strained then filtered water is suboptimal but better than not. Time to soap up and rinse, that goes to gray. A shower if managed with a good strainer pre filters and drain to gray for washing is actually better than a bird bath. Like much in life, it's dealing with the gray.. it's not all black and white. So I'm building my motorhome right now with a ditch the dirt water drain aka soap time equals gray tank, soak time equals recirculate. Top up the recirculate tank automatically and 100 gallons becomes 200 gallons equivalent without the weight or space. I'll let you know if my humble opinion works out. Love your "say it as you see it approach!" thanks
As a pipefitter/ plumber for 25 yrs I agree with you 100%. Clean water and sanitary sewers are the bedrock of our civilization. Thanks George love your channel!
Well I have to say, you've certainly swayed me. I was all for a recirculating shower, could have one for as long as I wanted etc.....but the cost, and the hassle 😳, yeah I just don't think it'll be worth it. I wonder, who has a shower every day anyways? Here in the UK we don't have vast open spaces of nothing like in the states so I can kind of see the reason there but here? I could fill my tanks virtually every day if I wanted and as I'll have a Truma combie boiler for hot water and heat I'd need another tank for the hot water for the shower. Yes, a system which would be nice if you're very off grid but for here and Europe? I think not.Thanks for a great explanatory video giving lots of food for thought, nice work.👍
Your spot on.... for those people saying it's not a hassle those filters that he showed in this video are huge and they are a pain in the butt to change it actually comes with a giant plastic wrench tool just to undo them.
That's what I saw when looking into it.
I'm looking at something like a dishwasher type of shower where you have recirculating hot water that only goes through a mesh filter then when you're done dumps to your grey and switch to about 2 gallons of fresh to rinse off and clear the systems. It's good enough for our dishes, it's good enough for our skin. You just have to deal with a mesh basket and maybe flush the pipe system with vinegar, or whenever to get the grime out, now and then.
I mean, look how baths are done, you soak in soupy and dirty water, then rinse off.
Preach! I like these philosophy videos nearly as much as the build videos. Thank you.
thanks for this. Makes tons of sense to hear the reality of showers.
First let me say all of your concerns are valid. Having said that let me tell you what you should consider that would change this dramatically. First this shower should have A STANDALONE tank, thats right, no black and grey water tank. This will be just for the shower and nothing else. Second always use UV lights in your filtration systems to kill off most of the things that the filters dont. Third if your filters are spraying you when you change them you have a bad filtration system, good ones dont do that. Last but not least consider putting in a heating element so it can heat the water up inside and you dont have to keep looking for hot water first.
I'm looking for a box truck to build out. The shower was one of those I was thinking about. I've seen a ton of videos. I'm on the fence. Water storage wise I currently have and may or may not use 4- 55 gallon plastic drums. I'd like to have water storage for at least 100 gallons. I also have a 6x12 enclosed trailer I was planning on doing something with. Maybe just water storage. After seeing this video I'm definitely going to now consider a separate toilet room and shower with a recirculating set up or just combine them like I sort of planned.
I confess I hadn't thought of if that way before. Recirculating showers sounded brilliant to me the first time I heard of them. But you've persuaded me to agree with you. Thank you for doing so...humbly. :^ )
Thanks again for your opinion Sir. I believe the same. I have 130 liters of fresh water. We need to refill every 6-7 days. Why should I bother with filters. total waste of time
and money
Agree also been watching videos on van life and see people promoting theses. Not to mention the amount of space you forego having a shower in you van.
Join a 24/7 gym with showers then you are good and better off.
But isn't that what a BACKFLUSH is for? Having a long, hot water, maybe even with two people, is one of the greatest luxuries in a van! Cannot wait to see your take on it!... if you do do it. And yeah, just don't urinate in a recirculating shower. 😂 (although it will all be cleaned up except for salt.) Not saying there is no maintenance, but for me it is worth it.
And ofc it helps if there is a little "drain hole" in the bottom for easy cleaning, and if a watertank leaks.
I think it is ok if you use the water for 1 shower then replace it. You would need minimal filtration then. Wouldn’t be much different from taking a bath. I was thinking you could build a very simple one use recirculating shower by simply having a deep shower pan and putting a pump at the bottom to pump it up to a 2nd shower head. Then rinse with clean water at the end of the shower and drain.
i thought that using the water once was the only option haha.
Love hearing your why’s …
I fail to understand why having a shower is such a problem I have one, I use it, it works fine I have less space than just about anyone reading this George makes sense Keep it as simple as you can It’s more reliable and there’s less to fix
Great insights, thanks for the tips!
interesting. I watched a vid where the husband and wife said they are generally happy with their recirculating shower---and they thoroughly went over how they have to do a bit of weekly maintenance, a slightly deeper 'monthly maintenance', and they found that it can't be used like a home shower. They stopped using soap (were going to look into some 'natural' types of soaps) and the wife said that she did her hair in the kitchen sink. So they could generally get a satisfying soapless shower, but obviously that's not the same as a sudsy home shower.
I have the beginnings of a design for a recirculating water system (entire water system, not just shower), but it would not work for a van. The system would take up too much space. It would work for an RV or travel trailer camper. It would have inline filters, rather than canisters, for sediment filtration, with a back-flush system to clean them out. There would of course be UV filtration and a few others in place to ensure the water comes out clean. In addition to all of that, there would be a separate vapor distillation system that the entire reservoir would empty into to be distilled into pure water (completely potable), which you could do after every use, or every couple of uses. It would drain off the first and last half gallon to come out of the distiller, to be replaced with fresh water. This would allow you to extend the life of the water in the system to at least 2 weeks, if not longer. All you would have to worry about is replacing certain filters that could not be back-flushed.
It had to be said and was said!
Thanks George!
Valid point. The dilemma exists. Maybe the only way it would work is a very technical design of an auto flush filtration system, where the filters do not need to be removed. I have never heard of such a system to date. I have, however, read on the net about an extraction system that installs in the camper, and actually extracts moisture from the air and fills the water tank slowly. If this were available today somewhere out there, it would be a huge bonus to the water storage issue.
All large commercial installations use a “backwash” system. Just a few manual valves is all you’d need. You could either use the pump that’s already there or an external hose (supply), for instance when you’re in that campground that George says you’ll be staying in periodically.
A good option I've seen are micro-mist showers. Multiple sprayer/mister nozzles fed with straight hot-water to mist the head/back/front/waist, can easily be under 2L/m or half gallon.
About the only downside is needing to make the vans HWS supply decent pressure and 60c-75c water.
But at the end of the day, a "Navy shower" or "Dicky-Bird Bath" still get the job done for less than a bucket of warm water, and a couple of wash cloths. Hell, you don't even need a drain, just a towel to stand on.
Very instructive, thanks for sharing!
When George speaks, all van dwellers listen! You know, like E.F. Hutton? You better listen!☺️👏🏽👍🏾
Thank you so much for explaining that to me.
100% agree. Recirculating the water is not the best idea.
Although we have a shower built into our motorhome, we don't use it as installed, as you just shower until the water tank is empty!
We have a 10L jerrycan fill it with shower temperature water and drop in a submersible Whale pump connected to the shower hose via some additional pipe with a non return valve. The 12V supply is wired through a waterproof switch in a convenient place. Turn on for 10 seconds to get wet, turn off, start soaping, a few seconds more water, more soap, wet hair, turn off, shampoo, then about 90 seconds to rinse off. Army style shower - simples.
Clever!
Sure, it can be repugnant to swap filters, like you did for your home. The thing is, all that disgusting stuff that was in the filters would otherwise have been in *you* if it wasn't stopped by the filters... just a little bit of it at a time. But yes, one reason that I believe the only proper way to do a recirculating shower is to use the water only for one shower and then discard it is to keep the filters cleaner for longer. It may not be for everyone, but it saves water. As in, you can actually take real showers with a relatively small tank. That's pretty big. And, disgusting or not, we should really have nothing but recirculating showers in the home as well, and only composting toilets. Yes, more work intensive. Yes, filters can be repugnant. But Americans literally flush out billions and billions of gallons of fresh, clean, drinkable sweet water just on getting rid of their poop and washing themselves, which is 100% not sustainable in this day and age. At the very *minimum*, the shower water should be collected in a separate tank, and then used to flush the toilet, so you'd save some water. And maybe filtered lightly first. It could also be used to water a garden and so on. Right now, we're being disgustingly wasteful of water. But, I guess that's another rant, and not van related... either way, I'm a fan of recirculating showers. That's my opinion, and of course people can agree to disagree.
I agree with you. Absolutely right. I would go for bigger water capacity.
Thank you once again for your words of wisdom! I’m planning my future van build and totally agree with you!
The idea of recirculating showers arent to wash with the same water for weeks. Its to allow you to have a 20-30min shower with 1 gallon of water and very little energy ( even a basic electric water heater would keep that water to temperature while you shower without much consumptioN). You can always dispose of all that after each shower. recirculating showers are substantially cleaner than having a bath which no1 is grossed out by.
Not to mention that you can set it up to just shoot clean water at the last minute to "wash off your worries"
It's the real world day to day maintenance of the system that I speak of.
I concur with your conclusions and reasoning. We can't even deal with #2 satisfactorily. Probably costs more to replace filter media than to pay for a real shower.
Totally agree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I agree. I've looked at the complexity of this and it must cost a fortune to buy, maintain and set up and you'd be replacing filters continuously.
Would def. like to see your verion of the recirc-shower, completly agree, grey-bacterial-pudding is certainly not something i want to shower in..
Very nice video, i was actually thinking of putting one in our van, but after thinking about what you said, i decided to get huge water tank. 250L and i had a 18.9L water pump which i can have a nice long shower, but after a while i changed it to a 10Lpm pump which gives me even more longer time in the shower. Your right, we can plug into campsites and have endless shower with our instant hot water heater lol. I have my water tank inside the van under the kitchen, which determined how big our kitchen counter is (62cm wide) we are planning on changing that and getting a custom water tank which would go under the van and should be about 200-300L. We can then change our kitchen counter to 45-50cm which would open up more space for us to walk through in the van and should make the van feel more spacious :-)
Thanks man. I needed to here that from someone.
Totaly agreed. I often thought of the maintenance on these recirculating systems and thought it was not worth it.
Ii agree. If I had to choose between having a recirculating shower and a 25 gal fresh water tank or having a regular shower and using the extra space to install a 50 gal tank, I'd go with the later.
Thanks George. My idea of recirculating shower will never use the same water from one shower to the next. I just want to recirculate the same water in the same shower. This will allow me to have a longer shower without the disgusting reuse of the same water on and on. Every time I am done with my shower I want to press somewhere so that the water loop releases all used water. Next shower will have clean water again. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks in advance George 🙏
Sure, that would be acceptable. However, my main point was not the condition of the water, but rather, the disgusting routine of cleaning or changing the filter cartridges.
@@HumbleRoad sorry for my dumbness but when I recirculate shower the way I wish it means I do not need those filters. Water will always be clean. Imagine this. I want to shower normally. I turn the shower, get wet, use shampoo etc. All this water is recirculating. Then I want to press somewhere so the last portion of water comes not from recirculation. This last water as well as all the recirculated water from before will go off the drain. As in next shower the water will be again clean do I need to care about all the hassle of those filters and uv? I know it’s a dumb question but am learning now the how to’s and plumbing is my weakest skill by far 😀
I think your comments make sense when referring to the most common layouts that I see people use building but when done properly you start a shower with a few litres of fresh water which from there is constantly being cleaned by the filters (so its cleaner than having a bath) and when your done you back flush that water and any contaminants the other way out of the filters and in to the grey tank and your ready to start the next shower with nice clean fresh water and flushed out filters.
You also talk about filter maintenance but again its in the R&D, done properly (back flushed regularly and the correct size and type of filters) filter maintenance is an easy and infrequent job.
I like your videos and workmanship but I disagree with you on this one. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you too could design and develop a system that works and is easy to maintain.
I totally agree and will be using this base design in my setup.
What size and type filters? Micron Level? UV filter specs do you use?
Wow, you just me made think at a system in which you recirculate and filter the water for the first part of the shower (let`s name it Stage 1) in which you soap and rinse and then have a second stage of filtration for the "infinite shower" that uses smaller filters and that flow is used and reused until you select Stage 3 and than that water is used after the stage 2 filtration to flush the stage 1 filtration. I would use one of these filters systems combined with a reverse osmosis filter in a forth stage to take water out of the grey tank and filter it back in the main tank. I also recall seeing a video in which a guy lab tested the water and the results shown that the ammonia level were high after a few days so this systems need a ammonia filter and I also seen that there are some people trying to figure out filters specifically for the soap which will help a lot with the maintenance intervals.
I agree with you on this. When I first saw the crazy advanced system Advanced RV designed, I was all about it, but then I started wondering about the maint issues you just described. It's totally not worth the hassle for me. I'd much rather have 50 gallon fresh water capacity and just get use to 2 min showers. You save money on the water system and have less maint to deal with.
Unfortunately that two-minute shower will use 3.2 gallons with the most frugal usable shower nozzle I could find. It’s estimated that that’s also how much water you would use taking a navy shower.
If you are like me and take a shower every day and don’t like the public options, that’s a lot of water. Just for me that would be 22.4 gallons a week. If you have a spouse with you, now you’re talking at minimum 44.8 gallons. That’s if each of you only takes one shower a day. It also doesn’t leave much water for dishes, drinking, or other before you run out of the 50 gallons and have to refill your fresh water tank.
@@TannyOHaley Not if you buy a switched nozzle which allows you to shut off the flow mid shower without messing up the temp. You don't need the water to be on the whole time, only to wet down and rinse off. The water should be off when you're scrubbing.
@@dlg5485
It may be easy for you, but with Parkinson’s fine motor movements (like switching the shower nozzle off and on) are a big problem for me. That’s not a problem for most people. I’ve read that a typical navy shower takes about 3 to 3 1/2 gallons of water. About the same as leaving the shower on for two minutes.
Even prior to Parkinson’s over 25 years ago I couldn’t take a shower in 2 minutes.
Agreed specially if the idea were to clean and recirculate the soapy water.
In my opinion for a more sustainable recirculating shower, be it at home or in a van, recirculation is only meant to happen once you have rinsed off from the soap.
Then the loop can begin with only clean water on a clean body.
This won't change the reality of the need for a regular filter clean up though, just push it further in time and make it somewhat less yucky, but the point is still valid.
Up to now, the smartest, light weight, affordable, portable and easy to clean recirculating shower I have seen is to use a LifeStraw equivalent inline with an outdoor shower pump to recirculate the hot water from a water basin you step into after cleaning yourself properly.
George, filter's cups are made of acrylic... You can drill small hole on bottom and screw a small valve in it. So before removing a cup, you can open the valve and it drains all yucky stuff out. Then you unscrew the reservoir which will be empty at that point. Clean job. Cleaner than emptying a cassette toilet! And BTW, you DON"T have to save the water for the next use, you can direct it to flush a toilet - what a great concept of saving water and doing it a CLEAN way. Who said you have to flush toilet with precious potable water? Grey water will do better job - there is a soap in it, cleans the drain too.
I like that drain valve idea.
@@HumbleRoad And pump the used shower water to flush the toilet too. In fact - all grey water should be directed to flush a toilet. How can you waste precious fresh water to flush frikkin' toilet, it's a sin! So you can boondock much longer then. Win win. Remember garlic and olive oil keep us strong! :-)
No flush toilets. None of my clients so far have asked for a flush toilet. Either compost or bagged.
@@HumbleRoad Laveo Dry Flush toilet is a miracle devise. No mess, no smell. You're right.
Yup.
I can sponge bath and wash my hair with a cup and dish tub, inside a Caravan. With clean water. I use about half a gallon. ( thin hair, lol)
Yep, I find that I can clean up with as little as two cups of water this way.
Dont forget the spray bottle from the dollar store! I like to put a few drops of castile soap and about 1c water, mist myself and wet the washcloth, wipe down, then use a second, spray bottle of clean water to "rinse" with.
George, I just read some of the comments and had this thought: how about a single use recirculating shower with one filter. 5 gallons that gets used during the shower and completely disposed of at the end. No storage.
Most van people can take a shower with 2 gals of fresh water.... no need to recirculate.
Use low flow shower head. 1.25 gal per min with stop button.
How about a filtersystem that you can enable in cases where you need it when you run low on water, that would be the best.
100%, and to add to that I wouldn't want the complexity...if it breaks or it turns out you have significant bacterial growth somewhere because it was designed incorrectly (or using inappropriate components...normal water filters aren't meant for this at all) you could end up with a mess at best or getting sick. I feel the same way about overly complex hydronic setups. The simpler the better, and always take the view that once you are on the road you will appreciate that simplicity over extra luxury.
watching van life videos for about two weeks now, I discovered the system for this only DIY which makes not ideal as your video says. however, recirculating shower system is a nice engineering problem to solve as the solutions are out there from city wide water treatment and swimming pool cleaning solutions
Enjoy your videos. I have a Ford Transit high top for my business. I am looking to build a basic camper van, but it has to be removable, to put the van back to work after returning from 2 or 3 weeks on the road. Anyone have ideas of the easiest way to do that? I was thinking of making the wall, floor and ceiling of 3-4 foot panels that would connect together. I know they build homes using SIP's. I thought the same concept might work in a van. I was thinking something that might take 2-3 hours to assemble.
I'm thinking modular boxes made of 2x2 and 1/2" ply. Make modules, 2-4 for the bed, with drawers built into them and slats instead of ply on top, and a couple of 24" kitchen modules with doors and drawers with simple pinch catches. use bolts, washers and nuts through the 2x to brace them all together and figure out a way to attach to the side of the van like maybe a 1x4x8' strapping board to screw into. just use a waterproofed ply for a countertop, drop a sink in, and use a jug on the counter or stand for a gravity feed system into a (slightly larger) container directly below the drain. Maybe a module for the porta potty or bucket loo that could double as a seconary seating space.
Exactly my thoughts too! For every convenience, there in another inconvenience. I would not do it because of space & weight limitations. The idea of cleaning does not gross me out, but the idea of reusing dirty water does. Short showers are a luxury in a van and I'm perfectly happy. If I want water, I find a swimming pool. We have to conserve water anyway in CA and AZ.
You're spot on!
Completely agree. Even with all those filters, I couldn’t get past the yuck factor.
You could take a shower and become "relatively clean", then hit the recirculating switch which will cycle this cleaner water for 10 or 15 minutes. Would that work?
I’m planning one now. What u say can be done. Or u could recirculate a nice long shower with say 3 gallons then dump it leaving clean water for next one.
These are the ideas I’m toying with. Mostly, I’m thinking of those winter months when I use a hot shower to warm up before bed. I’m not looking a recirculating shower as a hygiene thing and wouldn’t be introducing soap. Just minimize the amount of water I heat, but keep using it until I warm.
Im a process control/instrumentation engineer... recirculating showers do work, but they are complex and need a bit of automation involved with motorized valves that includes clean in place techniques (Pharma process do this all the time) and multiple pumps. A lot of the van recirculation showers I've seen on the net are to basic and high maintenance to keep clean. The key to cutting down on these maintenance is to have proper loops that automate these cleaning process (and it's not that hard to do). These cleaning technics will keep the filters last longer, cleaner and fresher with a push of a button. Van builders like to spend their dollars on priorities.... if showers are one of the top priorities, they need to spend more engineering and money towards that goal. Putting a series of filters/Uv lights in the loop will work (but will always fall short)... but instrumentation and controls (automation) is never on their budget.
You strengthen my point that it is all too complicated and high maintenance for van life. When it’s time for a long shower, go to Planet Fitness. 👍😊
@@HumbleRoad It is a complicated system, but for the user it doesn't have to be if you automate the process and that goes with cleaning it as well. You can have a clean cycle when plugged in using city water or using the vans own water (again only with a push of a button). Your van builds has everything it needs to have a robust recirc shower (long shower) and keeping it clean to a point that you won't be changing dirty filters only worn out ones. Builders are afraid of taking this system all the way to its fruition because of its complexity and high cost. BUT, the ones who really wants this setup (the customers) are the ones leading the charge. I see that you're in NJ, Im in Morris county. If ever you want to discuss the system more... hit me up with a pm. BTW, love your clean work.
@@ferdinandjimenez346 definitely! I am willing to explore the system as you describe it. I would consider building a prototype.
The question is not how to take a shower but how to get clean with the least energy and water It’s all in asking the right question.
Recirculating showers add complexity to what should be a simple task.
Our question became how do we get clean with 2 gallons of water and we found we could do it with less and found a use for the waste water.
Will put up a video on it in the near future.
Okie dokie. I won't EVER mention RS. Yikes! Duly noted. Thank you.
I appreciate your opinion.
Couldn't agree more,I have 41gallon water capacity in 3 separate tanks spread around my 3.5 tonne van, I can off grid for a week or so with hot shower when I need it and here in Europe refill and empty tanks without a problem,recycling shower is ok as a concept but has become a fad with van lifers,better to install filter system to take on river water if you really need to be totally off grid in my opinion
👏👏👏👏 I completely agree with your thinking
I'm glad you added it was just your opinion.