I think you're right! The source of the damage from Ignition is actually the creature, so it would fizzle if the board is wiped with the copies on the stack.
As somebody who pilots Zada, the stack gets pretty technical. I find it useful to make 'stack placeholder' cards for Zada's ability and the copied spells when making a physical stack on the table to explain the process to others better.
To be more precise on how the interaction will work because Zada's ability is on cast and not when a spell resolves. You get a copy for each other creature you control. You put them on the stack in the order you choose. If a copy goes to resolve and the creature is no longer there, then the target is illegal and the copy will fizzle.
The optimal way to resolve would be Dreadhord Arcanist's copy dealing 4 more damage (killing the tokens and the mage) and then Zada's original spell dealing more 9 damage for a total of 13.
Irony: Miguel couldn't have countered the first Approach of the Second Sun because his source of blue mana was detained by Lavinia. That Negate could've saved him from the second casting of the Approach, which is the one that must actually be countered.
@@diegodelamata2435 Not exactly the second Approach does need to resolve to win. it's the first Approach that doesn't matter. 4/18/2017 As your second Approach of the Second Sun resolves, it checks only whether the first one was cast, not whether the first one resolved. If your first Approach of the Second Sun was countered, you’ll still win the game as your second one resolves. 7/14/2017 Approach of the Second Sun has no effect until it’s resolving. If the second one you cast is countered, you won’t win the game. straight from gatherer.
Lavinia's Detain effect had already ended by that time, but your point about countering the first cast still stands. Its even in the name: Approach of the SECOND Sun, always counter the SECOND cast.
That was a fun game of archenemy you played ;) Salt skitter might have been the best card this game.. Dom drawing all the cards uninterrupted was just too much as he had a counterspell for literally every problem it seemed.
He wasn't archenemy at all. Hermit druid does make you a target when you run a GY based deck though. Dom rightly prioritized threat that game + That Chandra's Ignition blunder, and still they needed a Cyclonic Rift to stop Muddstah from winning. I would say it was a pretty fair and intelligent game.
@@sasukeds Of course Hermit Druid triggering three times makes someone a target but it's their own fault. Two blue and a red deck that can't take care of a Hermit Druid?
I see that Dom is a man of culture playing Saltskitter, such underrated creature not as good as Norin but it does the job. If you want to have fun with it you can also put it with an Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit and boy that Boolster can get out of hand quickly.
I suddenly realize why I love listening to your EDH matches - because you sound /exactly/ like the guy who does those 'How Stuff Works' videos. You have a vocal quality which just makes me want to listen to you. Edit: How It's Made, rather
hot damn, that Ephara deck is easily the best control deck I've ever seen. getting card draw every turn and having a answer for any and every scenario!
@@tempestandacomputer6951 yea that's true, saltskitter was doing work for Ephara. Shit I definitely could use Ephara in my aminatou deck for card draw cause I am always flickering and naking creature tokens on ppl's turns.
That Salt Skitter and Ephara combo is insane. This kinda makes me want to build a deck like that. Great video as always! Seeing interesting decks like that is why I keep watching your stuff. One of many reasons, of course
Saltskitter was one of my favorite cards in my old ephara deck. So much value. Kinda want to build the deck again now Also love that you won with approach. One of my favorite win cons in all of magic.
I love coming here and seeing decks like Ephara. Great design and fun commander that isnt as popular as other Azorius commanders like Brago/Grand Arbiter. Great showcase and game Muddstah. Quality.
If you sacced everything but the reveillark in response to cyclonic rift, you still had the win. Upon resolution you would have a blood artist on the field and a reveillark xtb trigger, which can fish up viscera seer, karmic guide, sun titan, and fiend hunter
OMG, I was just watching an old episode and this one came out! Coincidence? I don't think so (Am I the only one who loves forgetting that it is Monday/Thursday and suddenly get the notification of a new episode?)
Sitting down to watch I definitely didnt call the right deck to win. Your deck was so close to winning and getting hated out was probably the right call. Ive never made a graveyard based deck but some of the ones ive seen recently have made it tempting
That was a fun game! Gotta be honest tho, those last attack steps from Loic and Miguel seemed....pointless. I could see Miguel attacking to force the Maze of Ith off of Loic, but loic attacking was an awful decision, which made his extra turn spell just a suicide spell. I wish we could see what loic was thinking, because tapping 8 to recast Zada MOST likely ruined his plans, making gis 2 last turns seem like a waste of time. Did Loic ever say what he was trying to do?
Been playing Ephara ever since she was released. Always bummed people think she can't be strong. Love my deck but seeing this one go off was amazing!! Also my second deck is nada storm, so this game was fun to watch!
In tournament rules, unless the triggered effect is expired, the opponent actually gets to decide whether or not the trigger will go on the stack. Meaning that if the trigger is a positive effect, it usually wont happen and if the trigger is negative, it will. But in commander, if it doesn't throw off the game too significantly, I say let them have it.
Hi Andrew, love the videos and content!! I had a q about your t5, I definitely don't think getting titan off the karmic guide was wrong, but if you were going for the win I feel like targeting reveilark could have been a good line. With Gary, karmic guide and reveilark all you need for the w would be for reveilark to die on your turn (giving you recruiter-> sac outlet + karmic guide grabbing the reveilark again). You could mill into the sac outlet directly with hermit druid or worst comes to worst, karador would probably be able to cast recruiter on your t6 getting seer or something. Again, I think getting sun titan was a good value play, I was just wondering what your thought process was. I also know a lot of your viewers don't love when players combo on t6, so was wondering if that factors into your decision making process at all in game. Thanks for your time!
Also, on t9 you could've won in response to the rift I think. Sac karmic guide, then reveilark, get back gary and guide, repeat. I'm sure your favorite thing to do is scour comments for misplays.. but a lot of those sac combos are way harder to interact with than people think so I figured it would be worth posting.
i love how you can easily play out complex Karmic/Reveillark lines, but often just forget to attack or simply lock yourself with your own staxx pieces. ;p
Approach of the Second Sun caused so many headaches in standard. I answered a Judge call every week with people always getting confused if one or both of the two copies got hit with a counterspell. People got mad and it got ugly more than once. I had to resort to getting a printout I kept in my trade binder.
Not sure if this changed the game so much but at 13:19. Negate couldn't be cast since the elder was detained and it was the only possible source of blue mana.
Andrew should cast karador more, instead of spell slinging. Counterspells are normally useless against a karador deck, it would be just a matter of time until karador resolves, bring back karmic guide and all the shenanigans, the combo was all there!
It's okay to show no mercy whatsoever to Chulame decks, it's one of those engine Commanders that is like Pringles, can't let them go pop or they will never stop.
Hey Andrew I also have a Karador deck If I may make a recommendation Swap your martys cause for a spore frog You had that card in your hand and never played it Otherwise great game
I think I have a Spore Frog in the list? Martyr's Bond isn't so much for fogging combat, as it is stopping big damage spells. It would have been better if I cast it earlier.
Mason Rocco It doesn’t stop traditional board wipes such as Wrath of God but chandras ignition deals damage which protection prevents so it gets around it that way
It didn't prevented the wipe, it prevented the damage to Dom's face, the Saltskitter was exiled and Ephara wasn't a creature at that moment. Note that the Tiger is destroyed
Zada. One of my favorite commanders. Although I build her far differently that most people, it’s always nice to see her played. Before I watch I’m going to guess he or she is playing the traditional Zada build.
Everyone keeps saying that Chulane is an awesome and strong EDH commander but every video I watch has him getting hated out of the game. Are there any vids where he actually does what the deck is supposed to do?
He’s a kill on sight commander, just like tergrid, if he sticks for more than 1 turn, the game is pretty much over, they ramp out like 3-5 turns ahead of every one and draw more cards than everyone
He had cast the Rift in response to my casting of Blood Artist. I could cycle through the Karmic Guide / Reveillark loop, but it wouldn't have done much.
@MTG Muddstah I know this is more editing for you, but if possible I'd like to know how many cards people have in their hand. Love the content either way; thank you.
Dom was able to have his commander out the whole game. The real question is why? U/W does not need anymore card draw than what it already has so why was no one concerned with removing it? Ephara was on the board for 9 turns. I wish I could have my commander stick for more than 3 in most games. Whew.
Approach has always been a stupid card, the fact that it actually resolving either time doesn't matter is ridiculous and it's so easy to recur that even singleton formats can't hold it back
MTG Muddstah Yeah, it’s anglicized from the name of the Irish folklore character Cuu Chulainn. I think depending on dialects it can be pronounced Cullen or Hullen, but trying to pronounce anything in the Irish language is a nightmare 😅
Good to know it's pronounced Cullen. In the bisaya language in the Philippines, whenever something starts with "chu", it almost always be thought of as dirty. Lol.
Wouldn't the first copy of Chandra's Ignition kill all of Loic's creatures, making the other copies fizzle?
I think you're right! The source of the damage from Ignition is actually the creature, so it would fizzle if the board is wiped with the copies on the stack.
Yes, that's exactly what should've happened.
As somebody who pilots Zada, the stack gets pretty technical. I find it useful to make 'stack placeholder' cards for Zada's ability and the copied spells when making a physical stack on the table to explain the process to others better.
To be more precise on how the interaction will work because Zada's ability is on cast and not when a spell resolves.
You get a copy for each other creature you control. You put them on the stack in the order you choose. If a copy goes to resolve and the creature is no longer there, then the target is illegal and the copy will fizzle.
The optimal way to resolve would be Dreadhord Arcanist's copy dealing 4 more damage (killing the tokens and the mage) and then Zada's original spell dealing more 9 damage for a total of 13.
It wouldn't be an MTG Muddstah video without game-changing misplays.
legend says that the skitter is still flickering...
😂😂 lol
ill let you know whenever he decides to stop
Saltskitter for the win, geez.
The second I saw the first Approach get countered I knew how the game was going to end.
Irony: Miguel couldn't have countered the first Approach of the Second Sun because his source of blue mana was detained by Lavinia. That Negate could've saved him from the second casting of the Approach, which is the one that must actually be countered.
Not really. The second Approach wins you the game. Doesnt have to resolve. Its a cast trigger.
@@diegodelamata2435 Not exactly the second Approach does need to resolve to win. it's the first Approach that doesn't matter. 4/18/2017 As your second Approach of the Second Sun resolves, it checks only whether the first one was cast, not whether the first one resolved. If your first Approach of the Second Sun was countered, you’ll still win the game as your second one resolves.
7/14/2017 Approach of the Second Sun has no effect until it’s resolving. If the second one you cast is countered, you won’t win the game. straight from gatherer.
@@sw0rdhunter Oh really? Thought it was the other way around. Thanks for the info!
Lavinia's Detain effect had already ended by that time, but your point about countering the first cast still stands. Its even in the name: Approach of the SECOND Sun, always counter the SECOND cast.
@@Logic-cg7qy or third etc
Dom's deck is seriously awesome, generally not an Azorius kinda guy, but that deck and how he played was seriously sweet.
That was a fun game of archenemy you played ;) Salt skitter might have been the best card this game.. Dom drawing all the cards uninterrupted was just too much as he had a counterspell for literally every problem it seemed.
Easily the MVP of the game
He wasn't archenemy at all. Hermit druid does make you a target when you run a GY based deck though. Dom rightly prioritized threat that game + That Chandra's Ignition blunder, and still they needed a Cyclonic Rift to stop Muddstah from winning. I would say it was a pretty fair and intelligent game.
Saltskitter is something new to me
@@sasukeds Of course Hermit Druid triggering three times makes someone a target but it's their own fault. Two blue and a red deck that can't take care of a Hermit Druid?
I see that Dom is a man of culture playing Saltskitter, such underrated creature not as good as Norin but it does the job. If you want to have fun with it you can also put it with an Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit and boy that Boolster can get out of hand quickly.
4:43 The Saltskitter's a dragon, oh no!
I mean if you want to get really technical, some wurms were descended from dragons in lore. This is wholly irrelevant information haha
I suddenly realize why I love listening to your EDH matches - because you sound /exactly/ like the guy who does those 'How Stuff Works' videos. You have a vocal quality which just makes me want to listen to you.
Edit: How It's Made, rather
hot damn, that Ephara deck is easily the best control deck I've ever seen. getting card draw every turn and having a answer for any and every scenario!
Saltskitter pulled all the weight. Without those draws, Ephara wouldn't have gotten so far ahead.
@@tempestandacomputer6951 yea that's true, saltskitter was doing work for Ephara. Shit I definitely could use Ephara in my aminatou deck for card draw cause I am always flickering and naking creature tokens on ppl's turns.
Dom navigated this game at a high level. Almost makes me want to break apart my Roon and convert it into an Ephara deck
That Salt Skitter and Ephara combo is insane. This kinda makes me want to build a deck like that.
Great video as always! Seeing interesting decks like that is why I keep watching your stuff. One of many reasons, of course
Saltskitter was one of my favorite cards in my old ephara deck.
So much value. Kinda want to build the deck again now
Also love that you won with approach. One of my favorite win cons in all of magic.
I love coming here and seeing decks like Ephara. Great design and fun commander that isnt as popular as other Azorius commanders like Brago/Grand Arbiter. Great showcase and game Muddstah. Quality.
If you sacced everything but the reveillark in response to cyclonic rift, you still had the win. Upon resolution you would have a blood artist on the field and a reveillark xtb trigger, which can fish up viscera seer, karmic guide, sun titan, and fiend hunter
OMG, I was just watching an old episode and this one came out! Coincidence? I don't think so
(Am I the only one who loves forgetting that it is Monday/Thursday and suddenly get the notification of a new episode?)
I always forget about the extra Saturday episodes
Same here!
That Saltskitter drew around 21 cards since it entered, Ephara is insane and I love it
Saltskitter basically Norin the Wary in white!
Man, Saltskitter is my favourite. I run him in Trostani, for sick lifegain and ETB triggers.
So many missed triggers from Tatyova around 13:45 Sadness
Early Saltskitter that no one bothers to deal with makes Ephara go nuts
Jesus, Ephara was amazing, I never thought that would be so effective!
Sitting down to watch I definitely didnt call the right deck to win. Your deck was so close to winning and getting hated out was probably the right call. Ive never made a graveyard based deck but some of the ones ive seen recently have made it tempting
That was a fun game!
Gotta be honest tho, those last attack steps from Loic and Miguel seemed....pointless. I could see Miguel attacking to force the Maze of Ith off of Loic, but loic attacking was an awful decision, which made his extra turn spell just a suicide spell. I wish we could see what loic was thinking, because tapping 8 to recast Zada MOST likely ruined his plans, making gis 2 last turns seem like a waste of time. Did Loic ever say what he was trying to do?
Been playing Ephara ever since she was released. Always bummed people think she can't be strong. Love my deck but seeing this one go off was amazing!! Also my second deck is nada storm, so this game was fun to watch!
With c-rift on the stack you could have stacked sac triggers to find another win
I haven't put in any of the other drainers yet =( I don't play Karador often anymore.
Oh thank goodness I wasn't the only one, why didn't andrew just give Dom the a worst position in the game
@@MTGMuddstah Do you not play it as often because you lost interest in Karador, or is it more along the lines of it not fitting in with the meta?
13:10 how did he tap his elder for mana when lavinia was just blinked the turn before?
Miguel didn't draw off Tatyova at all @ 14:00... good game tho!
Lmao, Ephara is so good. People sleep on her a lot, but she is so much fun to build around.
Chulane feels like a commander thats so good that hes bad, since the second hes on the field, all removal is going towards him
if my opponent missed a trigger that isnt a "you may", you have to left him/her draw the card for upkeep. its proper magic.
In tournament rules, unless the triggered effect is expired, the opponent actually gets to decide whether or not the trigger will go on the stack. Meaning that if the trigger is a positive effect, it usually wont happen and if the trigger is negative, it will.
But in commander, if it doesn't throw off the game too significantly, I say let them have it.
@@saucysam4 i disagree
That Ephara deck reminds me a lot of one I used to run. Games pretty much went the same way.
Hi Andrew, love the videos and content!! I had a q about your t5, I definitely don't think getting titan off the karmic guide was wrong, but if you were going for the win I feel like targeting reveilark could have been a good line. With Gary, karmic guide and reveilark all you need for the w would be for reveilark to die on your turn (giving you recruiter-> sac outlet + karmic guide grabbing the reveilark again). You could mill into the sac outlet directly with hermit druid or worst comes to worst, karador would probably be able to cast recruiter on your t6 getting seer or something. Again, I think getting sun titan was a good value play, I was just wondering what your thought process was. I also know a lot of your viewers don't love when players combo on t6, so was wondering if that factors into your decision making process at all in game. Thanks for your time!
Also, on t9 you could've won in response to the rift I think. Sac karmic guide, then reveilark, get back gary and guide, repeat. I'm sure your favorite thing to do is scour comments for misplays.. but a lot of those sac combos are way harder to interact with than people think so I figured it would be worth posting.
Finally, I have a use for that foil Saltskitter I opened all those years ago
i love how you can easily play out complex Karmic/Reveillark lines, but often just forget to attack or simply lock yourself with your own staxx pieces. ;p
I'm what they call "a Magic genius"
Approach of the Second Sun caused so many headaches in standard. I answered a Judge call every week with people always getting confused if one or both of the two copies got hit with a counterspell. People got mad and it got ugly more than once. I had to resort to getting a printout I kept in my trade binder.
man, that ephara deck looks brutal.
Does it? Getting the skitter so early on simply helped a lot.
Not sure if this changed the game so much but at 13:19. Negate couldn't be cast since the elder was detained and it was the only possible source of blue mana.
Miguel could use his activated abilities. Detained is only until the beginning of your next turn.
The turn with the reviellark was cool! (Stupid rift....) but shouldn’t you have equipped it with the skullclamp before sacing it to get the cards too?
Very cool usage of reanimating, props
Andrew should cast karador more, instead of spell slinging. Counterspells are normally useless against a karador deck, it would be just a matter of time until karador resolves, bring back karmic guide and all the shenanigans, the combo was all there!
It's okay to show no mercy whatsoever to Chulame decks, it's one of those engine Commanders that is like Pringles, can't let them go pop or they will never stop.
Love seeing Ephara get the respect she deserves.
Would love to see you guys go to the Wizard's Tower for Commander!! It's where I frequent most for Commander!
I pop in there every now and then! The last few times I timed it poorly and went during big events so there was no table space =(
@@MTGMuddstah They have a calendar with all their events online! Guess it's all about timing! 😛
I would like to go I'll check their website
Hey Andrew I also have a Karador deck
If I may make a recommendation
Swap your martys cause for a spore frog
You had that card in your hand and never played it
Otherwise great game
I think I have a Spore Frog in the list? Martyr's Bond isn't so much for fogging combat, as it is stopping big damage spells. It would have been better if I cast it earlier.
Couldn't you do the sac combo in response of the cyclonic rift it would still go off?
Getting hit by two Mana Crypt triggers is pretty rough!
I was like why is dom playing that commander? It's like a worse chulane, then the salt skitter came in and I re read the effect of the god
*lights up the fireworks
.
*Goblin Generic Noises*
Man I wish I was able to come on the show with my zada deck because that personally felt like a really bad build of her
think he just kept a bad opening hand though, we barely saw what was in the deck
*skitter prices immediately begin to skyrocket*
Yo man, what are the chances you were in South Africa last week Sunday? Coulda sworn I saw u at my LGS playing Pioneer.😂
Hey Muddstah. Was wondering if you had a discord at all?
I gotta know what's the name of the playmat dom is using!
Dom's deck was awesome!
Why is the decklist for Zada not there? :(
Asking to learn more about threat assesment... why did Dom take Muddstah out when Loic has the most life?
deathdollmania Loic had no cards in hand, while I had a graveyard full of stuff I could bring back with Karador.
@@MTGMuddstah 🤦🏾♀️ got it, lol
I thought Protection from a color doesnt stop boardwipes? Im not very smart. Have a Happy New Year Muddstah!
Mason Rocco It doesn’t stop traditional board wipes such as Wrath of God but chandras ignition deals damage which protection prevents so it gets around it that way
It didn't prevented the wipe, it prevented the damage to Dom's face, the Saltskitter was exiled and Ephara wasn't a creature at that moment. Note that the Tiger is destroyed
@@CandyxSkittle ah ok thank you
Why does no one play stuff early game?
Low power decks with high average CMC
Where is Zada's deck list???
Zada. One of my favorite commanders. Although I build her far differently that most people, it’s always nice to see her played. Before I watch I’m going to guess he or she is playing the traditional Zada build.
The way you say Revillark is really bugging me...
Why did no one kill the salt skitter??
Everyone keeps saying that Chulane is an awesome and strong EDH commander but every video I watch has him getting hated out of the game. Are there any vids where he actually does what the deck is supposed to do?
He’s a kill on sight commander, just like tergrid, if he sticks for more than 1 turn, the game is pretty much over, they ramp out like 3-5 turns ahead of every one and draw more cards than everyone
If Saltskitter jumps in value, we'll all know why.
Did Miguel miss a lot of tatyova triggers?
Hahaha I did yes sorry dad
I love dom’s playmat wow
Lol also called Andrew and my favorite edh deck is my labrador reanimator
What was Dom's play mat?
zada's decklist?
Happy New Year!!! :D
Couldn't you have fired your combo in response to cRift?
He had cast the Rift in response to my casting of Blood Artist. I could cycle through the Karmic Guide / Reveillark loop, but it wouldn't have done much.
@@MTGMuddstah oh I didn't catch that. Good play then!
A win the game and lose the game card played in almost in unison. Impressive
@MTG Muddstah I know this is more editing for you, but if possible I'd like to know how many cards people have in their hand. Love the content either way; thank you.
That’s unlikely to be added. I don’t typically keep track of that. Sorry!
Zada list, please? xD
Aw, the goblins didn't launch. :(
Dom should lose life from Chandra's Ignition, because it does not target, and protection would not work.
Chandra's Ignition makes the creature deal damage. And Protection prevents damage.
Why not path that salt skitter lol?
Not one single person chose to get rid of saltskitter and it cost everyone lmao
Loic, why?
She loves hermit druid
you had the combo on board couldnt you just have gone off? you sac at instant speed.
Xell Sunday the blood artist was on the stack, not on the board
HUGE play mistake countering the first approach, counter the second one, always
Dom was able to have his commander out the whole game. The real question is why? U/W does not need anymore card draw than what it already has so why was no one concerned with removing it? Ephara was on the board for 9 turns. I wish I could have my commander stick for more than 3 in most games. Whew.
Are your commanders all indestructible 4-mana enchantments?
@@NMS127 I don't know, maybe a single target exile? A bounce perhaps? Anything to just stop the consistent card draw.
Saltskitter is a worm not a dragon
"Wurm." With the spirit of a dragon.
@@coreysierchio4650 more likley the spirit of norin the wary
Tatyova being ignored on turn 11
Dom is the enemy of the people
Sadness that mono red didn't win but meh
Please!! It's not Arcaneomancer!
Was super sad to see loic just do litterally nothing all game
Shon dra, not Chan dra
salt skitter is best boye
Dom always focus one player, when others have almost full life, the threat assesment is kinda weird
Killing people off one by one is often way better than spreading damage around willy nilly.
i couldnt really kill loic as he had 30+ hp and my salt skitter is only so powerfull and miguel had bigger blocker iirc
Rage quit hahah
First!! Great vid!!
Approach has always been a stupid card, the fact that it actually resolving either time doesn't matter is ridiculous and it's so easy to recur that even singleton formats can't hold it back
CULLEN. It’s pronounced CULLEN, not CHOO-LANE.
CULLEN. 🤬
David Gleason Good to know! Thank you
MTG Muddstah Yeah, it’s anglicized from the name of the Irish folklore character Cuu Chulainn. I think depending on dialects it can be pronounced Cullen or Hullen, but trying to pronounce anything in the Irish language is a nightmare 😅
Good to know it's pronounced Cullen. In the bisaya language in the Philippines, whenever something starts with "chu", it almost always be thought of as dirty. Lol.