Cheap 8000w Reliable Inverter, That Works! WZRELB
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- Опубліковано 18 лип 2019
- Update: You can purchase a similar 48 volt battery to the one I used in this video. The 48v modules are being sold at Batter Hookup. Here is an affiliate link: amzn.to/30zewG4
Testing the new updated version of 8000 watt inverter from Reliable Electric. This inverter outputs a pure sine wave, 120 volts AC. At 34 pounds it's light enough for mobile applications. I'm powering this inverter with my new 48 volt lithium battery that I made from a used Smart Fortwo EV car.
I've also tested the earlier version of this inverter, and it failed. That video is available here: • Cheap 8000w Reliable I...
This new version works way better than the first version. Reliable Electric has upped their game.
This inverter is usually called HF, or high-frequency. That's because there is no massive transformer inside. Usually HF inverters can't handle large surge loads such as motors and compressors. So that's exactly what I used to test it!
Reliable Electric is also known as "WZRELB" I have seen it sold under both names.
Sometimes this inverter is available on Amazon, sometimes Ebay. The links sometimes change, sorry about that.
Amazon Link: amzn.to/2SyjCfy
There are (6) 48 volt batteries all wired together in parallel. Each battery has it's own BMS board for safety. BMS stands for battery management system.
This lithium battery came out of a 2013 Smart Fortwo EV (electric vehicle). It will be used in my DIY Powerwall for back-up power if the grid goes down. Off-Grid.
Thanks for watching. If you would like to help support the channel please check out Patreon, or use an affiliate link. Thank you.
/ davidpoz
We can chat and share project pictures on facebook: / davidpozenergy
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Inverter in video was provided by Reliable Electric. - Навчання та стиль
Love your excitement and enthusiasm. I can relate. I love tinkering.
Hey, just my 2 cents on safety and reliability. This inverter is what they call a high frequency inverter. This means that the FETs or IGBTs switch very fast (usually 10s of MHz) this allows for the use of smaller transformers and allows for a cheaper product to be manufactured. One of the big disadvantages of HF inverters is their inability to handle large inductive loads like motors. You can hear a problem with the noise coming from your miter saw under load as it sounds too bogged down, perhaps from the inverters inability to handle the inductive reactance and back emf from the miter saw. For inductive loads and in general a low frequency inverter is better. They have much larger Xformers and are in general a much more robust product. Next problem: safety. This inverter violates dozens of electrical best practices to the point that I wouldn’t even run it in my home if not watching the thing vigilantly. They use paralleled automotive fuses, didn’t trim the FET leads sticking out of the board, used way under gauge wire for EVERYTHING, and don’t have enough (any?) AC output filtering. They don’t do neutral to ground bonding, don’t use proper electrical color coding and the efficiency is awful (85% is abysmal). Remember, ink is cheap! You must independently verify all claims made. Try putting a scope on the AC output and running a large load. You will likely see huge deformation from a pure sine wave. There’s more wrong with the inverter- it’s likely not UL listing or tested meaning that if (when) your house burns down due to the lack or proper protection circuits on the inverter, your homeowners insurance probably won’t cover it. That being said I’d love to get my hands on one to properly go though it and see everything that’s wrong and see if some of it can be mitigated as an aftermarket repair. Probably not though as the AC traces in the board look way undersized. Just my .02. Best, Ben
First I'll say I like everything you commented on, you sound very educated in inverters and electrical theory. Way above me.
In my dream setup I'd love to have a sweet workhorse LF inverter like a magnum or any other brand, but they are VERY expensive. inverters like this fill a gap for people who don't have that kind of money. If it IS reliable (the channel "going off grid" has one and taxes it pretty hard) then it has my upcoming purchase based upon how the company has handled issues, sells repair kits, and has upgraded designs. these HF inverters fill a low price market. If I know what NOT to power with it, and give it a gentle life then I think it'll fit my needs. Or would you suggest I try and find a used / repairable LF inverter? The only thing i've found weird about this company that I initially didn't like is that they named themselves in a way that will catch uneducated web searches, but I don't think they're taking advantage of people just by how I've seen them respond to problems. I'd love to get your feedback.
The 2 apparently undersized leads going to the terminals is fine - they’re super short and open. If you’ve ever been inside a larger diesel gen set it’s very common to see what appears to be way undersized leads from the gen to terminals. Just my two. 👍
Short runs of AC high voltage will permit smaller gauge wire like inside this case.
David, Your are helping more folks than you will ever know. You are giving us ideas ( and doing fails, so we don't have to) and show great detail in your videos. Thanks from all of us.
Your welcome, thank for such a nice comment.
The voltage went up. Pretty damn good design. Looks like they fixed whatever problem they had.
put an oscope on the inverter and see how clean the power is.. that a true indication on how well the inverter is.. thats the best test.
Indeed, also make a step response, use a storeget oscope and capture the first 200 ms to see the voltage drop, use a ac motor under load. Do not rely on a led display where the update time is poor, it is only for indication of how voltage is approx.
Not sure he would know what a scope is or how to turn it on.
LOL @@g7mks383
@@unreal6029 be nice - he is trying - and he posting - encouragement - advise - I am concerned about lack of breakers - even dirty power kills. Shop around - Look for a used electical supply store - Locally or online - Keep Posting / Keep Testing - but Be safe.
A new, single-channel 70MHz scope decent enough for this kind of work is available these days for under US$100. Well worth it when investigating sources of noise and quality of AC. There are even some nice handheld digital scopes out there for about the same price that could probably address most issues involved in non-commercial AC hookups. I think I saw a new one on ebay/Amazon for about US$75 a week ago or so. Do thorough check of reviews and check to see if any youtube tutorials on the equipment before purchase.
Thank you David, and also thank you to the subscribers who comment on your videos. I learn something new all the time, and it saves me money and keeps me from blowing up my new stuff.
Your welcome. I also learn from all the great comments. Like that pre-charging of the capacitor.
I was pretty impressed at the amperage differential between the input and output. It's only a little over twice as much on the input @48 vdc, so that thing is very efficient. The fact that it will start a compressor or run your saw and actually cut a board with only a few volts drop is really amazing. Load sensing evidently works really well on this unit.😉
What's your input after 2yrs with it
So much better than the last one. Hope they gave this to you after having the previous version blow up twice.
Those internal wires are fine with that wattage. Because they are AC ,and because of their short length, they can cay that much current and wattage. It’s not a problem. If you look it up in the NEC guide to wire gauge/ampaciity, you will see that shot runs of less than a foot can cary multiple times more power than longer runs of the same gauge.
Matt Carrell u tell them!!!
Long lines have voltage drop!?
@@orlandojohnson5742 Yes because of the cable lenght. The more lenght the more resistance they will have. Simple answer. But if you're not stupid you may noticed a tall constructions usually with 3 lines beside of the road or going straight through the field. Those towers are high voltage powerlines so why the high voltage? Because if you increase the voltage you're dropping amperage way lower so the thickness of the wires goes also down. You can pass 1 milion volts across 2.5mm wire and draw tons of power without overheating the wire but lets say , 12V across the same diameter you can pull max 100W from it. 1 milion volts across 2.5mm wire you can pull almost 1 megawatt of power from 2.5mm wire. 1MV* 1A = 1MW
This is really cool. I've finally gotten my solar system up and running. This will be a future upgrade.
Just make sure you put the gas planets outside of the rocky ones from the sun
I appreciate the inside look and you sharing your expertise
it really helps renaming the choke in the way you did lol
Nice video, thanks for taking the time to produce it! Hey just thought to tell that I like to use a 12v testlight (just a simple automotive style one) for charging the caps, and then you can see when it is done charging, as the light gets dimmer and dimmer and by the time you can't see the light anymore you can know they are charged sufficiently... Just my take, everyone has the way they like hehe..
Thanx Dave 4 the video. It is the first time that I hear of a 8 kW Inverter. Last year and also in 2006 we in ZA (South Africa) had rolling Power failures. For weeks on end we had to cope with out electricity. I have looked for inverters hear. The strongest was 5 KW and it cost an arm and a leg. And also with a 5 Kw Inverter you must have a BIG power bank. Not just a motorbike or car battery. It look like for emergency needs, in ZA, that a 1.5Kw will be the min. But even that cost also an arm and with out the leg. Since 2006 I have bought 2 small ones. So I can use the lights, radio, TV and the laptop. It is two systems. Also our electricity is 220- 240 Volt. Thanx again.
What no one is commenting about is that here is a company in China that is reacting to the previous test videos, possibly customer complaints, also, and have completely re-engineered the entire device to address the failures shown in previous videos. THAT'S impressive. Even some U.S. manufacturers wouldn't do this. I have a lot to say when it comes to the Chinese manufacturing of discrete electronic components (I.C.s, transistors and such) that they do not live up to the maximum ratings of their western world and U.S. made counterparts. Even if well engineered, if the components that make the finished device are not capable of delivering their published ratings ... long comment made short ... it's not (entirely) the fault of the inverter maker that the components fried under maximum, stressed conditions. I fully applaud the efforts of *YUEQING RELIABLE ELECTRIC CO.,LTD.* to make this product deliver on it's promise.
Well said.
David, air compressors have what is called an unloader to take the "load" off the motor during start up... in other words, only when the motor is up to full speed does the compressor start pumping air. The starting (inrush) current of an induction motor is several (4 to 7) times the running current, depending on motor design. A similar thing applies to universal (brushed) motors but the inrush current can be higher (up to 10 times) but the starting torque is also a lot higher. Once the motor is turning, the current drops to a very low amount until a load is applied, when the current rises to do the work required. Usually, universal motors start with no load applied and the starting time is very short. Even your car starter motor is turning before the load is applied. An interesting thing that people do with vacuum cleaners is block the hose and think they are increasing the current draw. The opposite is true. By stopping the air flowing in, the turbine has less work to do and therefore the current goes down. The only thing that goes up is the temperature... no cooling air.
My system is 24 volts with a cheap 4 kilowatt PSW inverter with a 230 volt output. It's a little kinder with the loads I'm running. It's interesting to compare your stuff with mine. One converter transformer for every 500 watts of throughput in my inverter. Converter output is roughly plus and minus 330 volts but only at 20 amps continuous (for 4kw) whereas your one will be plus and minus 170 volts at nearly 80 amps for 8kw output. Those huge toroids are part of the filtering to remove the high frequency content from the output waveform. Nice set up, BTW.
Awesome you finally got a working inverter
I just stumbled on your video and I like how you tried out the inverter with your power tools and I was really was surprise on 12:21 ohhh wow surely its a plus for me to see how the inerter handled that big saw....wow
I like all your posts sir I now amplified my solar skills by your help thank you sir
Great vid. Thanks.
FYI -- Those power tools you used for testing (eg band saw) weren't under load so were not using their rated consumption.
Matt ! The DeWalt Miter Saw was under load, Barley... LoL
Hard to say what that meter is measuring in voltage. I would want to hook up an oscilloscope and compare waveforms AC and inverter.
Amazing; that's exactly what I was going to recommend.
Cual es el precio del equipo
LMAO 🤣🤣🤣
Consider this a 4000W inverter with 8000W surge, you read it in the manual that the 8000 is twice the rated capacity. The surge allows for motor starting. At 4000W the 10 gauge wire is fine for the terminals. 10 gauge is for 30A 120VAC 3600W, use a 80% de-rating for continuous load of 24A. But that GFCI is for 15A plugs, and at most 20A terminals and pass through for the load side, which at 80% is only 16A, the 24A is overloading that GFCI.
Thanks. I agree that we need to de-rate this. You might enjoy the second round of testing: ua-cam.com/video/TZbjy9t933E/v-deo.html
This is wonderful David. I think this company is really improving greatly. I have the 1000 watt pure sine of this Reliable Inverter and tested for about a year now. The result is impressive. I will soon upgrade.
Chukslis
I’d rather have several smaller inverters. If he has any problems he looses all 8k. If he had 2, 4K or 4, 2K he’d still have some power if there were any issues.
Here in Thailand, just the other day, I saw on sale the equivelent of the last POS you had fail, and I smiled thinking 'no way' when I read the supposed rating. Yer gits what ya pays fer.
It defiantly seems to me that the wires are way to small. You might want to check the voltage gauge on the inverter, to make sure it is measuring right.
Great video, I always enjoy your videos!
Defiantly lick your fingers and touch the output
That one is built better than most of their units. I took the terminal wires and changed those to a copper bus bar and 4/0 on the battery cables inside I changed them to a 1/0 cables.
Very nice review and your excitement at the results of each load was fun to see. You were like at Christmas, opening a gift. Thank you for a very honest test.
"Ohhhhhh man!!! All my equipment passed!!! No voltage drop!!! Ohhh wait...I'm still plugged into the house outlet"...LOL
I came by this video on accident and you know there should be some iq test and score before anyone can post videos. The only reason I left the video play because I was insulting it. My wife said from the other room who are you belittling now.. I then realized 15 min wasted of my life i will never get back.
The inverter is used to power the outlet.
Chassis AMP rating vs Power Transmission.
10 AWG is rated for 55 amp chassis / 15 power transmission.
Meaning inside the case it's safe but not for long runs like in wall, or extension cords.
J Correa Hi
You remind me of how I react when I create something that serves a purpose. Problem is have is when you show or explain to others they can't wait until you stop talking so they can tell you about how you didn't wash the dishes yet or cut the grass ect.
Seriously, it's a lot of fun learning with you and your enthusiasm is contagious!
It looks like the wire gauges are for 220/240V output and they haven't upgraded them for 110V use.
That is a really nice setup David.
That explanation makes a lot of sense. The person in the factory who put those wires on did not consider if it was a 230v or 120v output.
Very likely, other issue is the traces Likey can't handle 8kw for to long as well at 120v (a lot of power is going to be trying to go though that screwed on the blade as well I could see that getting super hot)
like other reliable inverters (the brand) I wouldn't put constant past 3000-4000w on this at 120v, if it was the 240v version 8000w is more likely doable (still 32amps thought)
I believe wattage on the inverter is peak short time load on all reliable inverters (about 5-10 minutes) but as these are Mosfet based inverters I still wouldn't put more then 3000-4000w on them if I wanted to last more then 9 months (especially if your on 120v as amps are silly high 30-60amps on that small cable and the lug it's on)
Other issue is having the one full heatsink for everything as it bypasses airgap for dc low voltage (but high currant) AC high voltage (lower currant) there is a risk of dc ac jump (unless the block is grounded but if it is the battery pack will melt it)
Transformer based inverters are generally better for motor loads and less likely to blow up for over 5-10 years
@@DavidPozEnergy Really?? Wire gauge is determined by current requirements...not voltage requirements. It's called ohms law !! W / V = A i.e. 8000W / 240V = 33.33A >>> 8000W / 120V = 66.66A 10 guage THHN is good for 30A so for 8000W @ 120vac 66.66A / 30 = 2.22 10 guage wires or 3 wires will cover the max load !!
How many hour backup From 148 Bolt
@Wolfgang Preier you are talking shit. I live in Europe and have never seen a house has 3 phase just for the oven,which is more than 3.7kw. My main breaker is 63 amps fyi.
Great Job this thing is very impressive!
ME: makes fun of kids getting excited watching toys being un boxed and reviewed
Also ME: Watches a power inverter unboxing and gets excited...
LOL
as a kid i was the one take all the toys apart to see how they worked!! than got excited when friends broke their toys and gave me the parts to take apart and build something else with them! at 9 years old i had down pat how to work a fire extinguisher
I've seen this exact phrasing on other videos. Dude!....
Thanks for your input on these units. I'd recommend glasses as ppe for future electrical endeavors. Just sayin...
Definitely agree. High current shorts can easily throw molten metal quite a distance.
man they really cheaped out on the main terminal block coming out of that joker the ac side lol and pretty interesting how they chose to run the output wires straight through the metal hole with no gromet protecting it
chassis wiring and power transmition tend to have different amperage values.
Reliable Power inverters aren't pretty or sexy but in my experience they work and keep on working. I have two 2000 watt pure sine wave inverters and a 500 watt (first 2000 watt unit has been in intermittent service for over 2 years, 500 watt unit for over 3 years). Their output is cleaner than the power the local electric co-op delivers (and I have the scope pictures to back that up). The ">85% efficient" is true at less than 50% load (90% at 300 watts for the 2000 watt inverter) but drops to about 80% above 50% load (tested with a Kill-A-Watt on the output and my volt and amp meters on the input).
As the average hourly load on my "solar generator" is less than 300 watts (max loads of each appliance are averaged into that number, including the defrost cycle of the fridge), it handles the frequent (usually short) power outages we have with no problems and the solar panels bring the batteries back up to full charge when commercial power is restored. If I put out additional panels (usually only have 250 watts online but have 1600 watts available), I can have limited power most of a day (depending on season). 420AH of 12 volt AGM batteries can power fridge, some LED lighting, phones and internet for up to 16 hours (no sun) or 24 hours (with sun and additional panels out). In 10 years, the longest outage at this location was 16 hours so we're OK for the most likely outages and there's an inverter generator to fall back on (including gasoline for two weeks).
I have a 3500 watt puresine reliable unit I got 2 bad ones in a row in the mail and the second one was a bad AC regulator card I had to unsolder the card from the board and replace it with one the manufacturer sent me and it fired up.i still have it collecting dust I dont use it at all. I do not want to put it in my portable solar and wind system and ruin it. I have 1410 ah bank and 1800 watt solar and 500 to 1200 watt 3 phase AC PMA turbine and prototype telescoping tower that can fold down for transport and both large solar arrays fold down like awnings using linear actuators. EPEVER 100 amp mppt controller 200v and EPEVER 80a mppt 200v controller and huge bus bar in electronics box wired my power bright 6000-watt power inverter with 4 4/0 cables to bus bar and hardwired 30 amp RV receptacle box. My dump control board and solid state relay and 100 amp rectifier 300 watt 3 ohm resister bank for resistive braking and dump or drag down setup is cool. I'm still working on it.
Very nice review. Looking forward to your very meticulous testing.
Thanks. I've got to load it up with 8000 watts of stuff. Going to need more outlets.
He noticed wire gauge, heat sinks, and other very interesting stuff that I would also look at. He took it to 7,080 Watts. That's pretty cool for us who are in the market.
I Guess it increased the duty cycle going to the transformers when the load increased. Some inrush and maybe low resolution of the PWM lead to an increase of voltage under load.
Or probably they have programmed it to slightly increase voltage under load to compensate on line drop like most of the usb chargers.
5:53 10 gauge is not rated for 30 amps in 310.15(b)(16) table, only due to the aestrix that refers you to the required size based on the ampacity. This is within the equipment and can be listed for that number of amps from the factory. there are many fewer variables within an enclosure. remember, amp rating of wire is a thermal calculation.
10 gauge is only good for 30 amps when it is run inside a conduit with other conductors.
It can go to higher amps with shorter distances. As someone explained above, the rating is based on %voltage loss. The thermal tolerance is significantly higher. The voltage loss depends heavily on the length of the wire, meaning in short wires loss is extremely minimal. Less than 1-5%
@@tpzoso Exactly, additionally, the voltage drop is a lot less important on the output end than the input end where it is more critical.
Nice test and review! I built a solar generator (its on my channel if your curious) that was a 4k unit and it can run a chopsaw and table saw, but never could get a portable air compressor to work.
I bought an 8000watt inverter off eBay that runs my welder without flinching for $120 I haven't been able to max it out yet... I can't believe it's that good for the price.😎🙏👍
What's the make and model please
There is a big difference between running a saw under load and without any load. Otherwise excellent demo!
looks like the wire is only about 6 inches so it may handle 60 amps if you are worried double them up that is what I would do.
Or run your mains right to the board and not use the panel mounted terminal.
I would personally replace those connecting leads to a #6 AWG or metric equivalent of 25mm2...
I see fire in its future! Nothing looks capable of handling 60 amp. From the tin looking screw tab coming off the circuit board to the lug and wires running all around it.. I also don't like that there isn't a circuit breaker/ fuse for its receptacles. Its an ok rig if using it occasionally light duty and expect it not to last long. But for those duty's and thought of investment I would rather just buy a Honda generator that's a little more mobile and would not mount this inverter to the inside wall of my house! My two cents..
@@andrewbowden1076 LOL -- I am laughing with you --- not at you,! Needed a good laugh! Yes circut breakers are needed - specially drawing 60 amps at 120 volts.... although one would require a rather large battery bank to draw that much current for a long period electricity moves fast. I would not use it with out breakers, "UNPROECTED" specially on pumps, subpumps, ect.... Fire burns - current KILLS. so BUY HIGH QUALITY BREAKERS . If I remember you posted a video and mentioned something about breakers. I have bought used hi quality "Hubbell brand" Hospital Grade GFCI Receptacles at a swapmeet - I paid $3 for 5 3 -20 amp / 2-30 amp. They are worth 100 times that. Whats your life worth.... Keep testing - keep posting
@@andrewbowden1076 - There a good grid tie and/or grid tie company or brand you can recommend? 500 or 1000 watts? I'm looking to buy one to plug into an outlet and start generating. I'm seeing cheap stuff that's questionable. Let me know if there's one or a company you can recommend. I'm not going huge power, but I sure don't want faulty.
Nice setting there, David! I would also be concerned with those thin wires. I have a 40 kW battery pack (traction batteries) and I connected it to my VictronEnergy 5000/48V with a 00 (2/0) wire AWG - in Europe we use metric units - so 70mm2. It never heats up and the whole setup works perfectly. The Scotts have a saying: I am not so rich to save on quality. ;-) Hope, the inverter meets up your requirements and it will be indeed reliable.
That's a good saying.
Oh man that is one cool inverter. Now I want one !
David you didn't take into consideration the length of the wires. The shorter the run of wire the smaller gage wire you need for the same amperage.
I think that's only because shorter wires can dissipate heat a bit more easily at each end.
I like to see as much copper as possible!
@@ahaveland Fuses, think on then, you'll never get 10 gauge wire on 30 amps fuses, it just a matter of the ohm law. That little piece of wire probably has about 0.07 of voltage drop at 67 amps so no a big deal, of course after that wire he can't pull 67 amps with a simple extension cord cause its impossible without causing a fire.
Andy Lee Robinson No it’s because there is less resistance. The longer the wire the more resistance, the more heat dissipation required.
Less voltage drop from being short. Wire still has a resistance value. Think of it as pulling your car with a rope, longer and smaller will have more stretch.
I saw a voltage drop to 121v.
I’d like to see the output sine wave on a scope to see if it is truly a sine and not half square wave or any riding spikes. I would also look up the awg chart to find out the required gauge wire for the stated amperage and replace those wires...regardless if they are short. I also wonder if there is adequate heat sink compound on those fet’s and not just a thin coat to save $$$. I would also check the output voltage with a Fluke meter...I do not trust those LED readout circuit boards. I did not notice if there was a cooling fan inside...if not I would definitely add one as it will save years on the fets. All in all, I am impressed with the performance.
Meu amigo esse é bem robusto, muito bom, parabéns pelo inversor
Obrigado
The wiers are okay .. for 10cm not 10m
So they are thick enough due to Short distance
You Will need bigger leads from inverter to Distribution / Fuse box
Remember
DC THICK LEADS EVEN SHORT DISTANCS
AC not so THICK LEADS ... AND THIN WIER OVER SHORT DISTANCES ALLOWED
RISISTANCE AINT THE SAME IN A C ... AS ... D C
DIVID WATT WITH VOLT = A .. 8000 / 120-230 = 67A-35A No . Always whole nr
I may have a look at those in 36 volts if they make them.
Great vid David - the only thing I’d like to see what the sine wave actually looks like on a scope especially under load.
So would I. I've asked around to friends and family, but I can't find an oscilloscope for rent or borrow.
Such a great machine. Well done
the AWG ratings are conservative and a usually for long distance. I have done testing myself on many wires and 10 awg can handle 60a no problem. just dont use it for long distance as the voltage drop would be massive.
I wouldn't call it reliable yet after just one first run. I would want to see a follow up video after you use it every single day for at least a year.
i dont think its mean for intensive work like very HQ products made in our great north america (canada > usa)
I prefer Power Bright 3500W for that reason.
@@kahapaypal what would u suggest just starting out
Super cool! We were just thinking about getting something like this.
Does anyone know how to hardwire the 220v version, because I was reading the manual and it’s said that red is hot and black is neutral and yellow/green is ground, and for a 220v connection don’t I need to hot wires ? Any help would be appreciated
great tip on precharging the caps...I wondered about that...every time I turn on my inverter there is a big zap, doesnt feel good.
That tip is thanks to my viewers. Last video I posted a couple people suggested it. That's the awesome part of UA-cam, sharing and learning.
You shouldn't need to "pre charge" the caps (in most home sized inverters) if you're using a disconnect or breaker. The entire point of a mechanical connection is to contain/avoid sparks. In the previous video David was open-air connecting the inverter directly to a 56V battery which is a bad idea. In this video he has DC breakers which should have been more than enough to handle the fairly limited inrush current (hint: he charged the caps in a second or so even through a resistor).
The other point to using a breaker/disconnect is that you can reliably disconnect power if something bad happens. Whereas with a direct wire connection the wire is bolted on and/or may fuse to the device/battery.
Hi Tom St Denis, I can see your point that the circuit breakers contain the spark. There was one other reason a viewer suggested pre-charging. He said the in-rush current could fry the BMS's. I don't know how much of a risk that is, but the BMS's are expensive. And it's good to know the caps charge in a second. I didn't know how long to leave the resistor on there. LOL
@@DavidPozEnergy Perhaps. Though for most home sized inverters the caps aren't that big that you're going to sustain a load for an appreciable amount of time. A BMS big enough to feed the inverter at load should be able to handle a few 100 amps for milliseconds. For comparison, hook up a 500F super cap to a battery and watch sparks fly :-) I have some of them ebay 500F caps and it takes minutes to charge up at several amps...
pre-charging won't hurt but it's an extra step you could in theory do wrong. You also have a high potential terminal floating around on the other side of the resistor that isn't protected against shorts.... e.g. if you drop the resistor on something that is grounded you will short that wire out.
@@DavidPozEnergy I think it is prudent..victron even has a special unit that does this exact function, charging caps then turning on a contactor...caps are a dead short to DC until charged and most inverters have a few caps to stabilize things.
Cool -- even for $1400! Of course, the real test will be of long-term durability -- daily use over a few years.
I am just an old man now! I am building a grid on my home. I use mostly 2 and 4/0 gauge wires. Thing I would like to know how well a battery system would last daily. I enjoy too much electricity! I like what you had done. I recommend everyone to use 2 or 4/0 gauge wire. I use 4/0 gauge from battery to systems. I now want to build my solar next. Thanks!
I think several people have mentioned this, but shorter wires don't require larger gauges as amperage increases. You are thinking of electrical codes and wires which span a house. This is a few inches.
Thanks.
the plug you used it your video looks like a GFI plug? this works with a floating ground?
I Guess so. In an upcoming video I'll have to connect more outlets to try and load the inverter up with 8kw. I'll try some outlets that are not GFCI
Leigh Amos , GFCI receptacles do not require a ground reference to function properly. They monitor the imbalance between hot and neutral to determine when to trip. BUT in this situation they will NOT function anyway because the fault current cannot go back to the inverter neutral since the inverter has no ground reference. The neutral of the inverter would need to be grounded to the earth for the GFCI to trip.
OMG it finally worked
Nice presentation David, thanks.
I was impressed!
By my accounts with the compressor running the efficiency is 93.6%
It is very good👍👍👍
inverter is 48 volt dc.. 10g wire is fine for current draw at max
10 gauge is on the ac leg output.....too small!
Actually 10 ga is fine for 240vac output as the current in half, thus 30 amps!
you get all happy when motors start well there was no load you should have been sawing through a 4x6 then you could get all happy!
Was gonna say the same thing. That's where motors draw the most current, when under load. Or stalled.
@@HobkinBoi Stalled, definitely. It's referred to as locked rotor current. Typically 5 to 6 times greater than max running current.
On those wires short is g[d but you can probably replace them with some 8 gauge or something but glad they got you one that works
I see they did very good job, but as you said the wires is very thin to endure 8000w.
And thanks for yet another great video.
Thanks for watching.
Noticed you moved hot and neutral wires when checking amps with meter , from seeing how you wired it earlier.
Yes he was reading the neutral side
I have a 4000w for almost a year and going strong, but I rarely go above 3500w
Michael Tang how much it cost yours this days please?
i run a 2200 watt saw off 3500 w,.they say allways have 1000 more than you need.my gen inv. is 3500 as well.
Happy u got it working!
Also, 6AWG THHN is rated for 75 amps. If that's 6 gauge THHN wire, it's safe to use on the output stage. The entire outer diameter of the wire would be about 6.3mm, which that wire appears to be reasonable in-line with. I'm assuming the wire can actually handle the current. I'm more concerned about the jack of output stage protection.
Show ! Tive um de 10000w 24v só decepção !🤦
they go through all that effort beefing it up and then skimp out on the main output wires .
Yeah, I didn't get that either. They are easily removed and he can replace with larger but he shouldn't have to. I hope the maker watched this video and ditches those 10awg wires for 4 or 6awg at least.
@@thebeststooge the output wires don't actually need to be that large. The old unit had larger wires due to an uregulated output. This new unit has a controller preventing the output current from exceeding the current rating on the nameplate
Something about electrical design Engineering is that we always use down-sized wire for very short runs. Stranded wire like what you have in that box will work fine. I have equipment I designed with #4 wire that is normally rated at 70 amps, and you can safely double that amperage for short runs inside equipment. One would be amazed at what a difference it makes in the resistance of 30 feet of that wire versus four to six inches. That little bit if resistance difference makes a HUGE difference in the heating up of the wire when in use in an over-current condition. 140 amps would heat up that 30 foot run FAR more than it ever would the 6 inch piece. They also soldered rather than crimped, which gives it more surface area connection, which is also better than crimping, especially if they use silver solder. In your case, wire rated at 30 amps for longer runs will handle 66 amps just fine.
Thank you very much. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I am setting up for a bigger test of the inverter. My goal is to try and put 8000 watts of load on it. I plant to attach a temperature sensor to the middle of the red wire with some electrical tape and see how hot it gets. Does that sound good, or any other things I should keep in mind for that test? Thank you.
@@DavidPozEnergy Thermal cameras do FAR better at gauging as to if a wire is heating up excessively. However, those aren't cheap. We use thermal cameras in all our control boxes, fuse boxes, etc.. That helps us find where there are loose connections, which ALWAYS cause wires and fuses to heat up excessively. If a wire is indeed under-sized for an application, the thermal camera will make it very evident. If you plan to do lots of design work of solar power systems, a thermal camera would be a much better investment for looking to see if lithium batteries, wires, transformers, capacitors and other components are getting a bit too warm and in need of heat sinks. Even infrared temperature readers with laser spots to show you what you're reading are inexpensive and necessary. You can get one online for about $30. Putting a thermocouple of thermistor on a round wire is difficult to make enough surface area contact for an accurate reading. THHN coated equipment wiring is rated for 60C or 90C (I forget which), which is pretty darn hot.
Thanks.
very good. If you want to hit 8kW in power to test what this inverter can do, create a simple electrolysis bath. 1 bucket, 2 steel plates 20 cm by 25 cm and attach the wires to them. Then measure the voltage and amps as electrolysis progress. By adjusting up and down the steel plates submerging in the water you can vary the power amount which is being drawn. Start small at 1kw - by submerging the plates just a bit, then increase until a fuse blows off. see if it can hold that load for more then 30 mins. That will give you a pretty good idea. I did this under 240V since this is the voltage level in my country. For you might be different since electrolysis depends on voltage. In the video you only tested up to 4.5kw.
Maybe AC is not needed for solar and inverter combos?
The need for AC was a big deal with power lines running all over, but with power now coming from panels on the roof of every house, the need for AC is not important.
Perhaps the focus folks need to concentrate on now is identifying and removing AC transformers on mostly DC appliances.
So many times, I see AC inputs on low power appliances that go from AC to DC.
Almost every appliance only needs DC... The AC is only needed to transfer electric power over long distance.
Since solar power is gathered/made at panels only feet away from the need, I think AC is not needed.
And with AC to DC conversion not being 100% efficient, imagine removing the numerous converters on almost every appliance.
We may only need DC!
I like your thinking but with DC you have to consider voltage and power. You can get all kinds of 12 volt appliances but the amp draws are pretty high. That means heavy wire. If we could get manufacturers to agree on a DC standard (like 85 volts) then we'd be able to use the same wiring as we do in homes today and devices would be more efficient. Why 85v? I'm not an expert here so I'll accept a correction, but I believe that to get the equivalent power from DC as 120v AC, you have to use the root mean square equivalent (because 120v AC is not always at 120v). The RMS value of 120v is 85v. So if my theory is correct, all those power tools, shop vacs, vacuum cleaners, blenders, etc with series wound motors would plug right in and work fine. Water heaters could be adapted too. Lots of things would not work though and you'd have to have use DC to DC converters or a smaller AC inverted sub-system. I was trying to figure out a way to transmit DC and AC both through a home but it comes out to a lot of wires. You'd think you could share ground but that's bad juju. It would play havoc on GFIs at the least. Still, the idea of using native DC devices is good because it can reduce your AC needs. Look at what you can do with DC powered air conditioning and heating at HotSpot Energy.
@@lenmarinaccio3262 This is why 48-72Vdc battery banks are becoming more commonplace. At that voltage, wire size is less of an issue. I have even run many of my power tools directly off of a 96v bank in my garage since many power tool motors have brushes and are therefore self commutating they will run on DC or AC just fine as long as the voltage is fairly close. Remember that a 120VAC outlet is measured at the RMS value so the actual peak voltage of a 120V outlet is 170V.
At 48-72v you can buy buck converters that lower the voltage that can be used close to where you need the power but I think the biggest thing to look at is how many devices don't have a large current draw and could be run just fine off a simple 12v 15 or 20 amp circuit. You can buy 48v electric water heater elements that are slower at 1500-2000 watts but they still get the job done if you have a large water heater tank and don't use a ton of water all at once.
The only appliances that really need high current are likely in the kitchen and laundry room and you can find 48v inverters for around $1500-3000 that will more than handle all the appliances in a typical house including air conditioners and the only thing you have to watch out for is that you don't run all the big loads at the same time so AC, stove and clothes dryer. With the right planning, I think most houses could be set up to use both AC and DC effectively and cut down on a lot of wasted power at the same time.
Ever since I saw a video from What's Inside, I was hit with that burning question myself: would your 8 kW inverter be strong enough to give a Tesla enough emergency power to make it to a charger if you get stranded on the road?
This depends on what the draw of the charger is. I think a lot of EV's have a 120v charger in the trunk, which might be 1500 watts. This could work on this inverter because it's less than the 8000w rating of the inverter, and is 120 volts. However, most home charging stations are using 40 or 50 amps at 240 volts. Even 40 amps at 240 volts is 9600 watts, which is more than the inverter.
@@DavidPozEnergy I guess at that point, you could use the 240V connection and set the charging current limit to 30A. 240V * 30A = 7.2kW; this is within range of the 8kW rating of your inverter. Understandably, I would set a hard limit of 35A on the 240V connection (8.4kW). However, assuming that your inverter is not equipped with a 240V connection, that 8kW rating would run 65A of current on the 120V connection.
the under sized out put wire will get warm , check if they do under load if they do increase size of wire .a black coating will appear if u use under sized wires that get more load than they are rated fore sum of the black is caused by oxidation in time . nice video .
Yes 10 gauge cable its rated to 30 amps but keep in mind the lenght of that piece, same thing if you open any 30 amps fuse, you'll never will see a 10 gauge wire on those because then probably be a 200 amps fuse or so. What it looks bad its the way those wires going outside of the case, no even a rubber or plastic grommet with age or some vibration they can get damaged by the metal .
Good Point. Thank you.
Thats undersized wire as the Chinese think 8000 watts at 240v is 33amps. Do that wire should be #8 awg for 240 v 33amp. 8000 watt. On 120v it's 66 amps. So yes their engineering have severely screwed up
They probably know... but it's .01cent cheaper, so why not? :)
The maximum continuous load will be 4000 to 5000 watts. You can't run 2kw through those little transformers continuously
the length of the wire also plays into the required gauge of the wire. For this length wire 10 g is quite adequate.
@@carlglassmeyer8425 it is nice to see that some people understand resistance - generally the elecrical specs listed for different size cable/wire [gage] the current rating is tested at 100', not 6" so Carl is correct, 10 gauge is more than adequate. long circiit runs induce more resistance - therefore require larger gauge wire. Short circut runs have less resistance therefore the opposite. I would think this invertor would get hot - overload drawing 5000 watts for 10 minutes. I have not read the invertor rating, but agree the transformers look small. The cable of concern are "outside the box" the DC cable run. Carl can explain. I think the invertors are like many other purchases, you get what you pay for. 1st good thing - this company stands behind it products. Please test this invertor after 100 hours then 1000 hours of use. The designing engineers will watch. Hi tech is changing everything - time is the true test. Keep testing - keep posting - keep infoming. THANKYOU
The rating is likely at 240vac not 120!
I also do not think they are UL approved but I do like them. I lost all of mine in a house fire not related to them
I'm sorry to hear that.
I still have been having great luck with the Spartan 48v 4400 watt inverter
The Spartans look like they have a big transformer inside. Probably really good on surges. Is that right?
that is so powerful sine wave inverter and very nice electronics parts layouts
Did you check to see if the earth is hot ground, if you volt test neutral to earth on the inverter legs (should be no volts) and also test positive to ground they should only be 120 volts on the positive leg, (neutral should have no voltage and most likely is connected to the same leg as the earth)
if neutral and positive is 60 volts on each then you should be careful connecting the neutral to a house fuse box as it will destroy the inverter (if house fuse box is neutral to earth bonded) but I don't believe reliable do that any more splitting 60v between L and N (I could be wrong)
I guess you should use a thermal cam as 8kw on that cable looks like it's going to cook (case off to use thermal cam)
I just checked so I could respond. There is 60 volts between hot and ground, and 60 volts between Neutral and ground. So, I think it's called "live" ground. Darn. I was not expecting that. I've tested my 3000 watt inverter and it is not that way, meaning no voltage between ground and anything. Darn, darn, darn.
@@DavidPozEnergy if house fuse box neutral is bonded to ground you would need to remove that (makes it a pain to switch between mains power and battery power)
I guess the boom is caused by 60v neutral bonded at the fuse box to ground because people don't expect the inverter to be like a split phase (think it's called half waveform 60v on each leg at half frequency)
the off grid youtuber had this issue with some reliable inverters and some people blowing up there own inverters (sure the old 8kw like one you got only has one live)
But I guess it's good I pointed this out to you as the moment you hooked it up to your house main fuse box it would of gone with a bang the moment you switched on the inverter (as I assume the house fuse box would be neutral bonded to Earth)
You are correct, that my neutral and ground are bonded in my main circuit breaker box. That is the one and only neutral to ground bond in the house wiring system. I'll have to keep this inverter in isolated systems, separate from my house wiring.
@@DavidPozEnergy I understand from a load reason why they do it, but failing to have warning that it's a actually a half wave L & N (if that's what it's called) inverter can lead to boom inverter problems
It’s probably 8000w across the 3 wire outlet and the 4 lower output sockets
6:15 The ratings for chassis wiring is different from home wiring. Home wiring states 10AWG is for 30A based on the NEC. The max rating for 10AWG in chassis wiring is 55A. That being said, I personally wouldn't use it anywhere near that :)
Probably a solid 1,800 Watt Inverter. Not likely a 8,000 watts with those skinny wires. GREAT Video David !
wouldnt call 1000 bucks cheap but its not outrageously expensive as others
It's true that $1000 is not pocket change. I'm comparing it to Magnums, or Shnieder brands. They are going to run 3x the cost. Although they are beautiful machines and can do charging.
Don't like the way the wires are routed through the case with no insulation or protection for wire cuts or abrasions.
I would add grommets for the wires. You don't want mega amps getting shorted!
dear the inverter I watched 8000w is awesome.but what about to get this in my country pakistan and ofcource with 220 volt output plz do inform me?
Nice video, very interesting. I will be very interested in your "long term" durability. HF inverters have a bad reputation of not being durable.
they learned from last review how to make good inverter 😂
The wire coming out of the back grill is unprotected could be cut by rubbing against the grill ! Should pass trough a rubber grommet !
I agree.
Great video!
I have wondered what size inverter to buy that will get the job done.
Thanks
Looks like it is 91% efficient. Pretty good.