Exactly! The teams that finish second and third out of 36 should be celebrating this as a very good day. Now, they are always pissed off. It probably hurts more than finishing 10th or 20th.
Hamlin, who's in the playoffs, looks so sad and upset getting out of his car and his team is reassuring him next week's gonna be better, then they immediately cut to Buescher doing burnouts and Scott Graves yelling SCREW THE CHASE! Such a great moment of optimism from a team that really has nothing to look forward to for the rest of the year.
But then what if the 8th guy got to the final 4? Then would that be bad? Or if the top 4 got there and the 4th guy won? There are rules. Everyone was told in advance. Nobody set up for a 36 race points total. It’s interesting, but not real.
The only LEGITIMATE champions we’ve seen since the elimination format are Truex in 2017, Busch in 2019, and Larson in 2021. There’s only been THREE times where the best driver all year has walked away with the cup.
@@Michael29Shell overall Performance, also under any format idk about Busch, but for Truex and Larson they would of won the championship no matter what format it was.
It is definitely reaching a boiling point, people are absolutely fed up with undeserving drivers taking home the championship. I think the solution is pretty simple: bring back full season points, keep stages, and maybe have double points for the finale like Indycar did, although Nascar's would be much more justifiable with twice the races on the calendar. Maybe even bring a version of the Latford System, but with more of a bonus for wins. It would keep the championship battles entertaining, and also fair and legitimate.
And it's still a gimmick. The fact is this once you award bonus points in anyway shape or form you have turned your series into a gimmick. Before we change the format again we have to ask one question what should the NASCAR champion be?
Bonus points for a win or lap led or most laps led or *shivers when I say this* stages, rewards performance in races. As a compromise, I could live with that
Bring back the pre-playoff system. Last place gets 1 point, then you go up by one point until the winner. +1 for leading a lap, +1 for most laps led, maybe +1 for fastest lap in race.
I never condidered myself a staunch defender of the Playoffs and I never figured out why it was so bad until the events of Richmond, Daytona & even this past weekend at Vegas, it finally made me realize the hard way just how fundamentally messed up it is.
2004 baby here. I would like to see the chase come back. Either the 10 man chase with current points distribution, or the wild card chase from 2011-2013
I think they should take the in season tournament idea and make the last 4 a tournament with the top 16 drivers. Maybe crown a champion after race 32 and use that to keep the final races relevant (aginst the nfl, college football, et) Edit: 2006 baby here, grew up on Cars like Caruth
@@NASCARfan38-v6n I would be ok with a full season thing but stage points should stay to discourage people from riding around until the final 10 laps. But stage yellows should hit the road.
The only two championships you can make a definite argument for in the playoff era are Truex's and Larson's, because they were so dominant in their title-winning seasons.
All this because owners couldn't cope with Matt Kenseth winning the 03 championship with only one win while also running up front all season long. Ryan Newman should've stayed out of the wall. Not Matt, nor the fan's fault, but we all suffer for it.
What's really sad is I've been calculating the full season points for this year & we would have 5 are still in contention for the Cup Championship 9 are still in contention for the Xfinity Championship & Cory Heim would have basically locked up the Truck championship by now
Definitely not. The system needs a major overhaul. Matt Crafton exposed how bad this system is years ago in trucks. Ryan Newman nearly did it well before that in Cup. In my view, the "win-and-youre-in" format is trash. We did NOT need Harrison Burton or Chase Briscoe or, had he not been removed, Austin Dillon in the TOP 16. No, it should strictly be the top 16 in points. Just award more points for the wins. Fix the points so it rewards the winner and the top-5 better. Give bonus points for leading the most laps again. And make playoff points matter all throughout, including the championship race. The championship race format is also bad. It shouldn't come down to just one event to decide it all. NASCAR has a lot of work to do before I will begin supporting them again.
Harvick truly exposed it in 2020. This system is supposed to reward winning. Guy who wins 9 races and still doesn’t even compete for a championship in Phoenix.
Well, don't forget the 2023 truck championship also, with Hocevar and Heim wrecking each other, plus Ben Rhodes winning it by damaging Enfinger's truck. That's also a good example.
my ideal but completely unrealistic solution would be to go back to the Winston Cup format, but make the difference between 1st and 2nd way more than the difference in everything else. Making winning super important while still making season long consistency matter.
Still to this day it bothers me that people blame Matt Kenseth for the change because he dared to win a championship with only 1 win. Is it Matt’s fault nascar decided to not just increase the points for those who win? Or waited a decade and a half to finally race at more than 2 road courses?
The 1992 Winston Cup Championship came down to the final race in Atlanta with 6 drivers having a mathematical shot at the title. In the end, the late great Davey Allison suffered an accident that took him out, and Alan Kulwicki finished 2nd to Bill Elliot but clinched the championship by leading the most laps which paid 5 bonus points. The hype around that season finale was enormous, the atmosphere electric. Once we left the 90's behind and NAPCAR began to slide back down from that insane peak in popularity, they have been scrambling to retain some of it. This sudden death, win-and-in playoff system is their desperate attempt to recreate that 1992 finale. The problem is, they are too stupid or stubborn to understand that if you set your game up to force or contrive a dramatic season ender EVERY SINGLE YEAR there is no real hype or excitement to it. It winds up being a big wet MEH, which perfectly describes today's NAPCAR.
@@JackLikesTrackhouse To be fair, his other two championships were a lot stronger. He was a top-3 car both times based on overall performance. This season however, he's been garbage.
@@seannolan9857 Unless you saw like an official Latford Winston Cup standings sheet that would say so, I could've sworn Logano was P3 in the non-Playoffs standings in 2018. Regardless, it was still a lot more legitimate than this year.
If you just get rid of "win and you're in" and make the Championship 4 a 3 race battle like previous rounds, you'd have a good balance between the Winston format and entertainment.
That is just as bad, you're boiling down the first 33 races into basically nothing. What is so wrong with having a full season format? Each race should be just as important. My favorite driver is Brad Keselowski. When he won at Darlington, I didn't care about the playoff implications, I cared that he broke a winless streak. People will watch even if the championship is already decided, that's why 2003 had better ratings for a finale than any other season after it. Let the best drivers win without gimmicks.
@@BrandonA1 or just use the chase format used in 2004 or 2011. At least you needed 10 races to determine the championship. And create these memorable moments organically. And also I’m sick of the elimination spot getting emphasized over who’s winning the race
Not kidding, not being hyperbolic: I haven't watched the championship race in 5 years. It's just too stressful and upsetting and has no real meaning anymore. Better off ignoring it and checking the result after, then starting the anticipation for Daytona.
You just summarized how I have been feeling about this for years now. This format is really unfair to the teams and drivers. It also makes the whole regular season a waste of time and cars. I mean, why does the top 16 needs to be decided in 26 races, but the champion can be decided in one? Playoffs doesn't make sense with Nascar. Just the fact that eliminated teams continue to race because a race with 4 cars would be ridiculous should have been a good enough red flag. So now they are just there to fill space on the track and blow a tire with 2 to go.
I would be ecstatic to go to a 3-round finale. Anything other than the contrived Champ 4. I've always wanted it to go further than that. 16 driver, 10 race playoff. Cut the field to 8 after race 5. 5 race push to the title. Everyone (rightfully) lauds the 1992 finale with 6 drivers fighting for a title...that could happen here! Build some actual buzz and momentum for a title fight. Plus, the current playoff format focuses on the wrong drivers. It's all about who is at or below the cutline; not the actual leaders! Going to your 3-race (or my 5-race) setup puts the attention where it belongs...the best of the best! I'm sure the sponsors would appreciate that too.
I think this year might take the cake for worst NASCAR season with the legitimacy dam of the playoffs being SHATTERED, the inconsistent OT calls, and the charter disputes.
@@IsaacV24 NO! no where close. 2015 the dominate car was Joey Logano! A driver threw a temper tantrum and stole his shot at it. Kyle Busch was out for 1/3rd of the season and won the championship. That be like if the Tom Brady and the patriots sat out half the season and won the Super Bowl. Out of the other 3 drivers only 1 was good throughout the season and didn’t win. Not to mention 2015 dega the reason we have unlimited overtime attempts because the fans at dega are the same fan in Texas Longhorn grandstands. Also the start of lowering horsepower.
@@nikhook9430 To be fair on a couple of points, 1) Joey Logano essentially did that to himself. When you wreck a guy on purpose and cost him a shot at a championship, you can't seriously expect to not get retaliation. 2) Kevin Harvick would've actually been the champion without the Playoffs. To be fair, this was because of Joey's back-to-back DNF'S, but still. I can see where you're coming from though, and you're right that a guy missing nearly half of the regular season shouldn't be competing for the championship that year. Was Kyle's drive back impressive? Yes. Should it have been rewarded a full season championship? Absolutely not.
@@nascarfanatic2425 there is retaliation and then there’s that crap which was cheered on by the fan and NASCAR has been trying to repeat that moment ever since. Of all the moments the playoffs brought that’s by far the most memorable and ridiculous. That be like if an arrogant quarter back decides to taunt a defensive player and that guy responds by pulling a gun out and shooting him point blank and then the crowd cheers. NASCAR did nothing in response! A one race suspension in the time of year where him racing is meaningless ok sure! Even Harvick has admitted Logano was the car to beat that year. Well guess it all comes around as Logano about to win a third championship in a near meaningless post season. Might as well decide the championship by committee do what college football did early see how that works. Or we could have the drivers play Mario party and decide a champion that way.
I've always felt the crown jewel races are nascar biggest strength and should lean into that, make the points season long and have double points races for all of the Crown Jewels + the season finale race to keep it interesting at the end. You get the extra weight of the crown jewel and the points to go with it
Mediocrity is ALL that matters in today's NASCAR. You don't need talent to win a championship in NASCAR anymore. It's all just a lottery ticket demolition derby now.
1:30 Here's the thing: people usually say, "did the giants play every team that year?" But they already lost to the Pats in the regular season. So... it was just about how they played in one game.
I do not believe the Championship really counts anymore and hear me out: NASCAR is not a legitimate racing series any longer but instead it is now more of a gimmicky entertainment show I.E. kind of like a Monster Jam or WWE. A 1 race final elimination race between only 4 drivers/teams does not reflect the true Champion over the course of a 36 race season. NASCAR is really a SAD shell of its former self and attendance and Television ratings truly back that up.
To me Nascar has become a glorified game show, absolute scam of drivers and teams valuable time, effort and money, none of it is cheap yet Nascar keeps disregarding this level of commitment that is usually expected of a SPORT.
It's so interesting hearing one of my favorite Pokemon content creators also dabble in NASCAR content creation, and then throwing in anime references like One Piece on top of it lmao
01:10 also, Alabama Crimson Tide made the final 4 in College football and Basketball despite both programs were struggles in regular season, well the football season made the playoffs by the lucky way upset Georgia and a lot of injuries by Florida State. My massive problem is after this weekend when Joey Logano won in Las Vegas, everyone not very happy said: it's time to get rid the playoffs, how the hell Joey Logano will fight for the championship and he is in 15th in Winston Cup points??? Also another points Harrison Burton is last in points win at Daytona and made the playoffs??? A lot of points by this current system has been exposed the last 10 years.
The 32 car BLEW UP at Homestead in 2016. Anybody calling that a “nothingburger” has no idea what they’re talking about or are simply being obtuse to sell their point.
In my opinion I really like the playoff idea in THEORY but NASCAR just needs to make 2 tweaks to make it really exciting and WAY more fair: 1) Get rid of the "win and you're in". Its a dumb idea that without it would have gotten rid of pretty much every controversial playoff entry so far. Don't like Joey being in the final 4? Well without it he would still be only #4 in the points. Dont like Harrison Burton making the playoffs? He was only there cause of win and you're in. The list for this year goes on... 2) Make the playoffs a 4 - 3 - 3 race system. 16 drivers to start. First 4 races, and then eliminate the worst 8 on points. 8 drivers left and another three races. Now we have the 3 final races with the remaining 4 drivers. No one race will determine the winner, and everyone got there on points, not just winning one or two races at an opportune time. No gimiky one race to determine the champion BS.
@@ming454 I kinda agree with that move too but I feel like NASCAR will never move back to having fewer playoff drivers at this point. There is a direct TV ratings connection between people's favorite drivers being in contention and their desire to watch the race. So NASCAR isn't going to give up TV viewership for the sake of the sport sadly. Im also trying to keep the number of changes nescesery to a minimum. I think people come to NASCAR with a thousand little changes and they just brush them all off as being too much of a hassle. Its more realistic we could get a few larger shifts to make it fairier then getting everything everyone wants.
I'm sorry but there simply is no fixing the playoffs. You can't polish a turd. The only way they can fix this mess, no exaggeration or hyperbole, is by killing the playoffs, killing competition cautions, killing stage points, and bringing back the Winston system (but modify it so wins earn far more points). That's literally it. Not figurately, LITERALLY. I'm using that word properly. There is *literally* nothing else they need to do but that. There are other things they can do to improve it once it's in place, but those are the baseline steps they have to take to bring the sport back from embarrassment.
In stick & ball sports, if the 9-7 team wins the Super Bowl well at least they had to straight up beat the better teams on their way there. The Marlins having to beat the Cubs and the Yankees in 2003 to win the World Series. Look at the last 10 years.. 2014- Harvick (I’d argue makes sense, they were insanely fast and had a ton of bad luck, probably should’ve won 10+ races lol fine) 2015- was an absolute joke with a partial champion 2016- lolz 2017- Truex was the rightful champ 2018- massive lolz 2019- Busch was a good champ 2020- massive lolz 2021- Larson was the obvious champ (and almost didn’t even win it if not for a late yellow) 2022- Meh 2023- meh. In 10 years you have 3 or 4 champions that are even “moderately correct”
A few points: - Random factors used to be dealt with (in many other motorsports) by counting only x best results of the season. - Just read that Australian Supercars is introducing their own version of play offs for 2025... pretty sure I'm not watching it next season.
I am 32 i watched several Winston cup point battles. And heres a fun stat from the last year 2003. Your championship winning driver Matt kenseth won 1 race all year. Ryan Newman won 8 races in 03. People lost their minds and the chase was born.
I’ve been tracking the full season points using the current points system and Chase Elliott is having a 2003 Matt Kenseth esq season. Currently 3rd in points, 49 back of leader Larson, 21 back of Bell in 2nd and 13 ahead of Byron in 4th. Elliott has 1 win to Bell and Byron’s 3 and Larson’s 6.
Also have to factor in Ryan Newman's 7 DNF's and the points hole he dug himself into early in the 2003 season. He flipped at Daytona in the 500, there's a points hole there. He won at Texas in March but followed that up with 4 consecutive 38th or worst finishes. One of those finishes was that blown tire and half flip at Talladega that caused the big one. Newman won 8 times but had a ton of bad finishes. There's another points hole. Matt Kenseth had 22 top 10's in the first 28 races with a worst finish of 22nd at Martinsville. He didn't have a DNF until the 29th race, which was Talladega in October. Kenseth definitely deserved that championship in '03. In fact, it was a pretty dominate season for the 17 team despite not winning more than 1 race.
Ok. If NASCAR Wants To Keep The Playoffs, Simple. Go Back To The Original Chase Format With The 2004-2006 10 Driver/2004-2013 10 Race Format, With Chase Points And No Points Resets For The NASCAR Cup Series, Only. But, Go Back To The Full-Season Winston Cup Series Points Format, For The Lower Series, AKA The NASCAR Xfinity Series, and NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series.
The Nascar Cup championship used to be a very prestigious crown with a deep history. That is up until 2004. Prior to 2004, the Nascar champion was the champion. After that, it became a gimmick. I can't take any of the cup champions since then that serious. The "playoffs" is not for racing. Consistency is the best indicator of who the champion is. You know why Ryan Newman didn't win the title in 2003? He won 8 times, yes. But Ryan also flipped at Daytona and essentially flipped again at Talladega in April. He won at Texas in March '03 but followed that win with a 39th, 38th, 42nd, and 39th place finishes. He had a total of 7 DNF's. It was win or bust for Newman that season. Kenseth's worst finish through the first 28 races of the year was 22nd at Martinsville in April, with 22 top 10's. Kenseth built a 436 point lead on Kevin Harvick through those first 28 races. It took Kenseth until Talladega in the Fall to have a DNF (that was the race where Elliott Sadler flipped). Kenseth earned that title in 2003, in fact, it was perhaps one of the most dominate championship seasons in Cup history. If you want Wins to mean more. Then issue 100 bonus points to the race winner so that a large deficit can be made up. That's all that Nascar had to do. Just end this "Playoff" none sense.
What you offered for a fix is what I would do as a fix, but with a few tweaks: 1. Alongside the no "win and you're in", but more points for a win in the season, I'd like to add bigger gaps between some finishes like between 10th and 11th, between 6th and 5th, between 3rd and 4th and between 1st and second. 2. There is the winner take all final race, BUT the 37 other races act as a qualification to it like this: The top 16 qualify for the 11 race play-offs. After 5 races 3 are eliminated and 3 more after the next 5. Then the final race gets one more practice session instead of a qualification and you start at the position you're at up to that point. (Like 1st in points start 1st, 2nd starts 2nd, etc. Those top 10 drivers just qualify at the top 10 positions.) 3. Stages remain, but stage cautions not. 4. As you see, I am expanding the season by 2 weeks. However, I am considering bye weeks. I'm not sure if I'm proposing something alright and if I keep the final race that way, with the first 37 being like a qualifier to it, we need play-offs and elimination at all, but still... that's how I see things as the best compromise of the systems.
Wasnt the whole point of the playoffs was to generate interest from the casuals? Seems to me that isnt working. Its not working in trucks and Daniel Hemric only won 1 race and it was the championship race, almost like the 2003 championship.
If we get rid of win and in and make the final round more than 1 race then I don’t think there would be anywhere near as much controversy about whether or not the titles are deserved. I also think playoff tracks should be rotated way more often so no team can do what Johnson did in the Chase era
I say this all the time with how bad it's gotten. You can win all 35 races in the season; Finish 2nd in the last race of the season; and STILL not win the championship because one of the other drivers who was in the final four was the one who finished first in that last race
Good video with several valid points. I think the “win and you’re in” should not be included in the regular season. We simply need to get the top drivers into the playoff. From there, I’m fine with the format. But let’s start with the best of the best and not some one-off-luck stories.
Hot take: Playoffs in other sports are illegitimate too and they were always also gimmicks to create drama also by reducing the sample size of events, which will always produce a less fair champion. It's just people accept them because they usually existed decades before current fans were born. I remember when the BCS for college football was introduced and people HATED that too. 7:39 I wouldn't say it's not the only motorsport that actively punishes winners. There are plenty of sports car and touring car series that have success ballast where they add weight to the faster cars to slow them down in future races. Most racing series have something that could be considered a gimmick really. 7:50 2004 and 2011 Ford 400s weren't really the culmination of entire seasons either and there is no way you can argue either Busch or Stewart was the best driver those years. NASCAR's biggest problem with all its points formats has been not awarding the top positions enough, and not just first. The positions outside the top 10/20 score way too many points to the point where mediocre finishes hurt you less than terrible finishes (even if you ran better in the race). That's always been the problem with every NASCAR points system (relative to IndyCar or F1 or whatever) and that was what needed fixed back in the day, not a playoff format. F1 and IndyCar did eventually get rid of their double points finales, so maybe there's a chance they'll go back to a full-points format. But please something more logarithmic and not something that's just 40-1 to "keep it simple for the fans" (which is so insulting by the way) when everybody knows (except NASCAR and the people who think the Winston-era points system was actually good) that the difference between a 2nd and 3rd place finish should be VASTLY more than the difference between a 32nd and 33rd place finish.
The 2004-2006 Format With 10 Drivers/2004-2013 10 Race Format With Chase Points And No Points Resets For The NASCAR Cup Series Only. But Bring Back The Full-Season Winston Cup Format, For The Lower Series AKA The Xfinity Series And Truck Series.
And now we have a BIG problem... Another series is taking the playoffs format and they are the Australian V8 Supercars series with an even shorter playoffs format, the entire thing lasts 3 races .-. every "elimination round" is one round
one thing that doesn’t get mentioned enough, we don’t know who would deserve or make it into a different championship format because ALL of the drivers would adjust
Nascar has stopped being a sport due to the playoffs. Harvick lost a championship in 2015 to the playoff system when Kyle Busch literally got playoff eligibility despite missing like 3-4 races due to injury. Before injury would just be the end of a season for that driver but nope now we have a guy who is 20th in points winning the championship. Do people who defend the current format not think its absolutely insane to have the 32 or 34th place driver in the championship or have a person who's like 10th in overall points win because they just happened to be Infront of everyone else at the final race... like... what goes through peoples minds?
Saw someone a while ago suggest something combining the chase format and the playoff format. Points get carried through every race and at the end of each round eliminate the bottom 4 in points. Just eliminate the drivers instead of resetting the points.
about 2016, hell no Jimmie was the first driver to win multiple races in that year and in the playoffs he won the most number of races, with 3 wins, he won Charlotte and Martinsville to open the last two rounds in dominating fashion. He also led the 2016 Chase in average finish (9.2), laps led and driver rating, so he performed when mattered the most
I just sent out a letter to Steve Phelps in hopes that we could discuss possible changes come 2026 that can relegitimize the championship. Plan is to possibly meet him via Zoom or Skype on the 15th of November.
It's wild to me Nascar went for this insanely complex and unrewarding format instead of just giving double points for their finale on top of their 10 race Chase.
AMEN! Absolutely Amen. A football team has never had to forfeit a game because they had one bad snap that caused a fumble or a bad throw that led to an interception that got returned for a touchdown. They may have lost their momentum because of it, and maybe they lose the game if it was close and would have won otherwise, but they've never had to throw up their arms and just pack it up there, leaving the game with time on the clock. In NASCAR, you can absolutely have a bad random incident, a part failure or even a momentary lapse of concentration that can put you out of the race before it's finished, or even before it's half way to finished. Heck, the lapse of concentration doesn't even have to be YOUR lapse of concentration. They're fundamentally different sports.
Even in a sport like hockey where they not only count wins, but also count season long points to establish the playoffs. But when the playoffs start guess what you have to win to advance.
10:46 I feel that if NASCAR keeps it to be the 1 race take all and stage/playoff points don’t matter Run the longest race of the season for the final race. Get rid of stages. If a caution comes out. It will be because of a crash or debris. And at the end of like 600 laps. The driver in the final 4 that stood the test and time during the race, will be the champion. But I do believe that we should have a 3 race final round that consists of Las Vegas, Martinsville, and Miami to crown a champion.
I agree 💯 percent winning in Nascar is Tuff theres some damn good drivers with 20 or less victories Just one win still gets trevor bayne publicly they still show and talk bout it every Daytona 500
I kept an open mind when they started the playoff system after Kenseth won the championship without a win but it just keeps getting worst. The champ should be the best overall driver for the entire season. I'm pretty close to not watching anymore, I already only watch whats on free tv. It wouldn't be that hard to give up entirely .
@@Bidens_Battle_Box oops, my bad, i thought he went winless. My point was, he had a good consistent year and deserved the championship. But it wasn't flashy enough for NASCAR .
@@jimsoutdooradventures2748 quite right, as a Kenseth fan I feel he was robbed of even more championships because of the goofy chase format. Drivers who excel over the course of a season and make less mistakes should be the champion. It should be a gauntlet as like back in the day where the cars were difficult to drive with alot more power, and where half the battle was racing the racetrack not just your competitors. It's all centered around entertainment and "moments" now that NASCAR just can't let happen organically they have to force it.
I’m good with the championship and playoffs format with some tweaks. I definitely don’t want to go back to the old format when we knew that Jimmy and Chad just needed to roll clean laps at the end of the year to be champs. The playoff format leads to better individual races, which is what I want to see. Championships are for the teams and for Hall of Fame decisions, etc. I just want the best racing possible each week. If we can fix some issues with this car (so that a flat tire doesn’t DQ a top team, then I’ll be all good.
As a fan of multiple other motorsports, I think the solution is to keep NASCAR's current points format, but eliminate over half of the stage races and the playoffs. Stage racing should only happen at tracks NASCAR visits twice as a way to make the 2 events different from each other. Then you just go by points. You would very likely have championships not be decided until the final race or final 2 races and a real legitimate champion is crowned while still keeping some of the flair that makes up the current point system, which is a good one. Just look at the regular season championships. They have been coming down to the last race or two to decide for the past decade or so with a couple notable exceptions. No reason why that same thing shouldn't play out for the actual championship as well.
Championship is supposed to reward the most consistent driver of the year. Thats why we should go back to that. If its down to the last race to decide, cool. If the champ locks it in early, then the deserving driver of the year won.
Devil's advocate: NASCAR's current racing season is so long and has been so long for 30 years that (without a silly chase/playoff format) random bullcrap doesn't actually derail anything anymore unless it's a rare driver-sitting-out injury derailing the top team. Between 1990 and 2003 everyone knew who the champion was going to be at least four weeks in advance, as random factors could be overcome be just being boringly consistent, except for Marlin's injuries in 2002 and Davey Allison's in 1992. Even if mathematically Gordon or Earndhart or Labonte didn't lock up a title until a backmarker or two fell out in the season finale, the sheer number of random bullcrap that needed to happen to make things interesting was so statistically unlikely that no one really bothered following what would happen after the Southern 500 or Fall Dega race. It hurt NASCAR's late season draw and even Big Bill France Jr knew it, there's surveys floating around from the 2000 July Daytona weekend asking about why people weren't watching or attending late season races. The Chase and later Playoff formats are just overreactions to a system that protected too well against random bullcrap. Of course the sensible option in 2004 would have been to ditch the Latford system (IMO take a hint from CART, JGTC, and modern F1 and only award points to the top 50-60% of drivers) and then to shorten the season back to 28-30 races so drivers couldn't protect against freak accidents with a pile of 19 top 10 finishes and ~115 extra points from leading a lap or two under yellow each weekend. Ironically doing that would also protect against the similar rating dropoff from NFL season starting up.
I love that Logano is hated on because his stats don't match up to deserving to get in the final 4. But reality is ANY top 8 driver since this has been implemented could have been the "spoiler" of the series regardless of stats. We also have to realize this is Meg Griff- er sorry, Logano. He's always been hated for his on track mainly for stuff from years ago and for some current ones too. But put a Martin Truex, or a Chase Eliott or C-Bell in that exact position and same performance, then it's actually seen as "AWESOME" cause they're more seen as "good guys". I don't like this format at all, but I will not hate the driver as many do. It's a strategy in my opinion. Put as little to the car, use weatherd chassis and worn motors all year, sneak in, get into the playoffs, invest a little just to get in, then if you reach final 4, throw EVERYTHING at it: new chassis, more powerful motor, EVERYTHING to win. (Again my opinion) Had they run the old winston style, teams would have to change strategy and do/drive differently.
Honestly, I think this is why competitions like the Premier League without playoffs tend to make more sense...as every game matters in the season. There isn't a single game that is given less or more weight than others. Sometimes it can feel like it depending on who a particular team is playing and the outcome of other results, but playoff formats tend to work against the purpose of regular seasons. Interesting discussion to have - I took a philosophy of sport class during college (which was one of my favorite classes), and it was fun trying to weigh and discuss these things. Personal plot twist and question - is competition a good goal anyways? I think it isn't, but of competitive structures that exist, the fairest one I can think of is a season like the Premier League or other non-American soccer league.
Got to get rid of win and your in and go back to the pld Chase its crazy a driver can win 35 races and and lead every lap but if they get crash by the 2nd place in points they lose the title it's not about points anymore and I'm a big joey logano fan
This honestly is a symptom of a bigger problem: NASCAR has zero legitimacy or credibility as a “sport” anymore
And the france family
You should see Monster Jam
@@GravePrower_VT Basically what the NASCAR Chase is. Feld Motorsports is owned by Disney... A Mickey Mouse championship is all has become 😂
@@Sinister_Grin which is the problem we don’t want Disney’s nasty rat fingers in it’s bad enough Max-D retired and the real Monster Jam is gone
NASCAR is a gimmick.
This guy gets it.
If every race is a game 7 moment, none of them are.
Championships in Motorsport are meant to represent who was the best driver that season, not who could win when it matters.
Says who?
@@car83_anyone who knows racing
@@car83_ anyone who's watched a race
Exactly! The teams that finish second and third out of 36 should be celebrating this as a very good day. Now, they are always pissed off. It probably hurts more than finishing 10th or 20th.
@@EndlessFlameout4 consistency is what wins championships, not just a race.
To quote Chris Buescher's crew chief after Watkins Glen:
"SCREW THE CHASE, SCREW IT! HA HA!"
Yeah, when they don't even care about the championship anymore, that shows how bad the current system is.
Buescher fan here, I missed that. Can somebody share that clip?
@@karlcalvert812
It was on the Radioactive.
Hamlin, who's in the playoffs, looks so sad and upset getting out of his car and his team is reassuring him next week's gonna be better, then they immediately cut to Buescher doing burnouts and Scott Graves yelling SCREW THE CHASE! Such a great moment of optimism from a team that really has nothing to look forward to for the rest of the year.
Buescher is too good for it anyway. That guy has proven time and time again he’s a top 10 driver in cup
Using full season points. Logano is 15th in points. Every other driver in the round of 8 is 1st-7th.
And Bowman is 8-th, so we got robbed of literally the most perfect round of 8...
But then what if the 8th guy got to the final 4? Then would that be bad? Or if the top 4 got there and the 4th guy won?
There are rules. Everyone was told in advance. Nobody set up for a 36 race points total. It’s interesting, but not real.
And Bowman, who got forcibly removed, is 8th.
Only 6 top 5s, only 11 top 10s, and only 19 top 20s.
The only LEGITIMATE champions we’ve seen since the elimination format are Truex in 2017, Busch in 2019, and Larson in 2021. There’s only been THREE times where the best driver all year has walked away with the cup.
Based on what?
I hope 2024 will be like 2017, 2019 and 2021.
@@Michael29Shell overall Performance, also under any format idk about Busch, but for Truex and Larson they would of won the championship no matter what format it was.
H4rvick didnt earn his? 🤔
@@paulywoodtheprince Not in 2014, no. He even says he shouldn't have won that title. That should've been Jeff Gordon's SEVENTH.
It is definitely reaching a boiling point, people are absolutely fed up with undeserving drivers taking home the championship. I think the solution is pretty simple: bring back full season points, keep stages, and maybe have double points for the finale like Indycar did, although Nascar's would be much more justifiable with twice the races on the calendar. Maybe even bring a version of the Latford System, but with more of a bonus for wins. It would keep the championship battles entertaining, and also fair and legitimate.
And it's still a gimmick. The fact is this once you award bonus points in anyway shape or form you have turned your series into a gimmick. Before we change the format again we have to ask one question what should the NASCAR champion be?
Bonus points for a win or lap led or most laps led or *shivers when I say this* stages, rewards performance in races. As a compromise, I could live with that
What's the Latford system?
Bring back the pre-playoff system. Last place gets 1 point, then you go up by one point until the winner. +1 for leading a lap, +1 for most laps led, maybe +1 for fastest lap in race.
Just run the non-playoff standings for the entire season. Stage points? Fine. Win and you're in? Hell no.
You do realize the reason why NASCAR switched was because people started to complain about a full season points format?
Terry Labonte’s 1996 championship is a great example of what a championship should be, consistency all season long even if he only won twice.
Or Matt Kenseth in 2003.
The fact Harvick forgets what year he won his first and only championship says a lot
I never condidered myself a staunch defender of the Playoffs and I never figured out why it was so bad until the events of Richmond, Daytona & even this past weekend at Vegas, it finally made me realize the hard way just how fundamentally messed up it is.
I was born in 2005 and I want a full season format back
I was born in 07 and I agree (or at least the chase format)
2004 baby here. I would like to see the chase come back. Either the 10 man chase with current points distribution, or the wild card chase from 2011-2013
I think they should take the in season tournament idea and make the last 4 a tournament with the top 16 drivers. Maybe crown a champion after race 32 and use that to keep the final races relevant (aginst the nfl, college football, et)
Edit: 2006 baby here, grew up on Cars like Caruth
I was born in 1988 and watched NASCAR with a full season format from 95 to 03 it should still be like it was during the Winston era
@@NASCARfan38-v6n I would be ok with a full season thing but stage points should stay to discourage people from riding around until the final 10 laps. But stage yellows should hit the road.
The only two championships you can make a definite argument for in the playoff era are Truex's and Larson's, because they were so dominant in their title-winning seasons.
All this because owners couldn't cope with Matt Kenseth winning the 03 championship with only one win while also running up front all season long. Ryan Newman should've stayed out of the wall. Not Matt, nor the fan's fault, but we all suffer for it.
And this is why IndyCar creates legitimate racing.
What's really sad is I've been calculating the full season points for this year & we would have
5 are still in contention for the Cup Championship
9 are still in contention for the Xfinity Championship
& Cory Heim would have basically locked up the Truck championship by now
Been doing the same but only for cup.
9 in contention for the Xfinity Championship... If only.
@@acedelta12ik like holy shit that would be an insane final race
How would Heim have basically locked it up? Eckes has one non top 10 and has an average finish of nearly 5th.
NASCAR should just change back to the Winston cup layout. Then preforming when it matters most would match more.
Definitely not. The system needs a major overhaul. Matt Crafton exposed how bad this system is years ago in trucks. Ryan Newman nearly did it well before that in Cup. In my view, the "win-and-youre-in" format is trash. We did NOT need Harrison Burton or Chase Briscoe or, had he not been removed, Austin Dillon in the TOP 16. No, it should strictly be the top 16 in points. Just award more points for the wins. Fix the points so it rewards the winner and the top-5 better. Give bonus points for leading the most laps again. And make playoff points matter all throughout, including the championship race. The championship race format is also bad. It shouldn't come down to just one event to decide it all. NASCAR has a lot of work to do before I will begin supporting them again.
Chase briscoe is an okay pick since he was like 17th or 16th at the end of the regular season
And absolutely nobody cares
Harvick truly exposed it in 2020. This system is supposed to reward winning. Guy who wins 9 races and still doesn’t even compete for a championship in Phoenix.
@@hunternixonfishing2500 I'll never forget that. Because he tried to straight up take out Busch on the final turn to get in but failed.
Well, don't forget the 2023 truck championship also, with Hocevar and Heim wrecking each other, plus Ben Rhodes winning it by damaging Enfinger's truck. That's also a good example.
Petition to start a new stock car racing series with no playoffs please
Whelen modified tour
ASA Stars National Tour
my ideal but completely unrealistic solution would be to go back to the Winston Cup format, but make the difference between 1st and 2nd way more than the difference in everything else. Making winning super important while still making season long consistency matter.
its not unrealistic I think it was the most logical solution
Still to this day it bothers me that people blame Matt Kenseth for the change because he dared to win a championship with only 1 win.
Is it Matt’s fault nascar decided to not just increase the points for those who win? Or waited a decade and a half to finally race at more than 2 road courses?
The 1992 Winston Cup Championship came down to the final race in Atlanta with 6 drivers having a mathematical shot at the title. In the end, the late great Davey Allison suffered an accident that took him out, and Alan Kulwicki finished 2nd to Bill Elliot but clinched the championship by leading the most laps which paid 5 bonus points. The hype around that season finale was enormous, the atmosphere electric.
Once we left the 90's behind and NAPCAR began to slide back down from that insane peak in popularity, they have been scrambling to retain some of it. This sudden death, win-and-in playoff system is their desperate attempt to recreate that 1992 finale. The problem is, they are too stupid or stubborn to understand that if you set your game up to force or contrive a dramatic season ender EVERY SINGLE YEAR there is no real hype or excitement to it. It winds up being a big wet MEH, which perfectly describes today's NAPCAR.
A part of me wants to see Logano win to make everyone big mad and possibly cause an upheaval in abolishing the playoffs
He’s already won two titles and they still haven’t done anything about it. Doubt this would be any different
@@JackLikesTrackhouse To be fair, his other two championships were a lot stronger. He was a top-3 car both times based on overall performance. This season however, he's been garbage.
I guess that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make :/
@@nascarfanatic2425 More like a distant fourth in '18.
@@seannolan9857 Unless you saw like an official Latford Winston Cup standings sheet that would say so, I could've sworn Logano was P3 in the non-Playoffs standings in 2018. Regardless, it was still a lot more legitimate than this year.
If you just get rid of "win and you're in" and make the Championship 4 a 3 race battle like previous rounds, you'd have a good balance between the Winston format and entertainment.
What did you think of Kurt Busch’s championship run in 2004?
@@bighand1530I’d rather have the 2004 or 2011 format. You had to earn your way in and had to put together 10 races. With the updated points above.
So you could win the first two races, then wreck out of the 3rd and be champion?
That is just as bad, you're boiling down the first 33 races into basically nothing. What is so wrong with having a full season format? Each race should be just as important. My favorite driver is Brad Keselowski. When he won at Darlington, I didn't care about the playoff implications, I cared that he broke a winless streak. People will watch even if the championship is already decided, that's why 2003 had better ratings for a finale than any other season after it. Let the best drivers win without gimmicks.
@@BrandonA1 or just use the chase format used in 2004 or 2011. At least you needed 10 races to determine the championship. And create these memorable moments organically. And also I’m sick of the elimination spot getting emphasized over who’s winning the race
It's a gimmick that needs to go away.
Not kidding, not being hyperbolic: I haven't watched the championship race in 5 years. It's just too stressful and upsetting and has no real meaning anymore. Better off ignoring it and checking the result after, then starting the anticipation for Daytona.
I used to watch every NASCAR race. But, I stopped watching NASCAR when the season stopped mattering. I have never watched the "championship" race.
You just summarized how I have been feeling about this for years now. This format is really unfair to the teams and drivers. It also makes the whole regular season a waste of time and cars. I mean, why does the top 16 needs to be decided in 26 races, but the champion can be decided in one? Playoffs doesn't make sense with Nascar. Just the fact that eliminated teams continue to race because a race with 4 cars would be ridiculous should have been a good enough red flag. So now they are just there to fill space on the track and blow a tire with 2 to go.
At this point the regular season is the championship, and the “playoffs” are just post season exhibition matches just for fun
I would be ecstatic to go to a 3-round finale. Anything other than the contrived Champ 4.
I've always wanted it to go further than that. 16 driver, 10 race playoff. Cut the field to 8 after race 5. 5 race push to the title. Everyone (rightfully) lauds the 1992 finale with 6 drivers fighting for a title...that could happen here! Build some actual buzz and momentum for a title fight.
Plus, the current playoff format focuses on the wrong drivers. It's all about who is at or below the cutline; not the actual leaders! Going to your 3-race (or my 5-race) setup puts the attention where it belongs...the best of the best! I'm sure the sponsors would appreciate that too.
If NASCAR didn’t abandon this format in 2015 they’ll never abandon it. 2015 NASCAR season is the most embarrassing season in the history of sports.
I think this year might take the cake for worst NASCAR season with the legitimacy dam of the playoffs being SHATTERED, the inconsistent OT calls, and the charter disputes.
@@IsaacV24 NO! no where close. 2015 the dominate car was Joey Logano! A driver threw a temper tantrum and stole his shot at it. Kyle Busch was out for 1/3rd of the season and won the championship. That be like if the Tom Brady and the patriots sat out half the season and won the Super Bowl. Out of the other 3 drivers only 1 was good throughout the season and didn’t win. Not to mention 2015 dega the reason we have unlimited overtime attempts because the fans at dega are the same fan in Texas Longhorn grandstands. Also the start of lowering horsepower.
@@nikhook94302015 harvick was the dominant driver
@@nikhook9430 To be fair on a couple of points, 1) Joey Logano essentially did that to himself. When you wreck a guy on purpose and cost him a shot at a championship, you can't seriously expect to not get retaliation. 2) Kevin Harvick would've actually been the champion without the Playoffs. To be fair, this was because of Joey's back-to-back DNF'S, but still.
I can see where you're coming from though, and you're right that a guy missing nearly half of the regular season shouldn't be competing for the championship that year. Was Kyle's drive back impressive? Yes. Should it have been rewarded a full season championship? Absolutely not.
@@nascarfanatic2425 there is retaliation and then there’s that crap which was cheered on by the fan and NASCAR has been trying to repeat that moment ever since. Of all the moments the playoffs brought that’s by far the most memorable and ridiculous. That be like if an arrogant quarter back decides to taunt a defensive player and that guy responds by pulling a gun out and shooting him point blank and then the crowd cheers. NASCAR did nothing in response! A one race suspension in the time of year where him racing is meaningless ok sure! Even Harvick has admitted Logano was the car to beat that year. Well guess it all comes around as Logano about to win a third championship in a near meaningless post season. Might as well decide the championship by committee do what college football did early see how that works. Or we could have the drivers play Mario party and decide a champion that way.
I've always felt the crown jewel races are nascar biggest strength and should lean into that, make the points season long and have double points races for all of the Crown Jewels + the season finale race to keep it interesting at the end. You get the extra weight of the crown jewel and the points to go with it
Mediocrity is ALL that matters in today's NASCAR. You don't need talent to win a championship in NASCAR anymore. It's all just a lottery ticket demolition derby now.
Mr incredible - they keep creating New ways to celebrate mediocre things.😊
1:30 Here's the thing: people usually say, "did the giants play every team that year?" But they already lost to the Pats in the regular season. So... it was just about how they played in one game.
I do not believe the Championship really counts anymore and hear me out: NASCAR is not a legitimate racing series any longer but instead it is now more of a gimmicky entertainment show I.E. kind of like a Monster Jam or WWE. A 1 race final elimination race between only 4 drivers/teams does not reflect the true Champion over the course of a 36 race season. NASCAR is really a SAD shell of its former self and attendance and Television ratings truly back that up.
To me Nascar has become a glorified game show, absolute scam of drivers and teams valuable time, effort and money, none of it is cheap yet Nascar keeps disregarding this level of commitment that is usually expected of a SPORT.
It's so interesting hearing one of my favorite Pokemon content creators also dabble in NASCAR content creation, and then throwing in anime references like One Piece on top of it lmao
01:10 also, Alabama Crimson Tide made the final 4 in College football and Basketball despite both programs were struggles in regular season, well the football season made the playoffs by the lucky way upset Georgia and a lot of injuries by Florida State.
My massive problem is after this weekend when Joey Logano won in Las Vegas, everyone not very happy said: it's time to get rid the playoffs, how the hell Joey Logano will fight for the championship and he is in 15th in Winston Cup points??? Also another points Harrison Burton is last in points win at Daytona and made the playoffs??? A lot of points by this current system has been exposed the last 10 years.
The 32 car BLEW UP at Homestead in 2016. Anybody calling that a “nothingburger” has no idea what they’re talking about or are simply being obtuse to sell their point.
I'll admit i can't even remember who won the championship 3 years ago
@@81casperflip Kyle Larson
My grandpa, God rest his soul, said before the 2004 season that NASCAR is going to soon regret going into a Playoff format.
In my opinion I really like the playoff idea in THEORY but NASCAR just needs to make 2 tweaks to make it really exciting and WAY more fair:
1) Get rid of the "win and you're in". Its a dumb idea that without it would have gotten rid of pretty much every controversial playoff entry so far. Don't like Joey being in the final 4? Well without it he would still be only #4 in the points. Dont like Harrison Burton making the playoffs? He was only there cause of win and you're in. The list for this year goes on...
2) Make the playoffs a 4 - 3 - 3 race system. 16 drivers to start. First 4 races, and then eliminate the worst 8 on points. 8 drivers left and another three races. Now we have the 3 final races with the remaining 4 drivers. No one race will determine the winner, and everyone got there on points, not just winning one or two races at an opportune time. No gimiky one race to determine the champion BS.
Just make it 12 instead of 16 and eliminate 4 as usual, we don't need 15-th place guy going for a championship anyway
Playoffs are for stick and ball sports
@@ming454 I kinda agree with that move too but I feel like NASCAR will never move back to having fewer playoff drivers at this point. There is a direct TV ratings connection between people's favorite drivers being in contention and their desire to watch the race. So NASCAR isn't going to give up TV viewership for the sake of the sport sadly.
Im also trying to keep the number of changes nescesery to a minimum. I think people come to NASCAR with a thousand little changes and they just brush them all off as being too much of a hassle. Its more realistic we could get a few larger shifts to make it fairier then getting everything everyone wants.
Playoffs make no sense for racing
I'm sorry but there simply is no fixing the playoffs. You can't polish a turd. The only way they can fix this mess, no exaggeration or hyperbole, is by killing the playoffs, killing competition cautions, killing stage points, and bringing back the Winston system (but modify it so wins earn far more points). That's literally it. Not figurately, LITERALLY. I'm using that word properly. There is *literally* nothing else they need to do but that. There are other things they can do to improve it once it's in place, but those are the baseline steps they have to take to bring the sport back from embarrassment.
I am commenting this after seeing the first 3 seconds of your video and hitting pause. Great content. Love it. Thank you for being concise.
In stick & ball sports, if the 9-7 team wins the Super Bowl well at least they had to straight up beat the better teams on their way there. The Marlins having to beat the Cubs and the Yankees in 2003 to win the World Series.
Look at the last 10 years..
2014- Harvick (I’d argue makes sense, they were insanely fast and had a ton of bad luck, probably should’ve won 10+ races lol fine)
2015- was an absolute joke with a partial champion
2016- lolz
2017- Truex was the rightful champ
2018- massive lolz
2019- Busch was a good champ
2020- massive lolz
2021- Larson was the obvious champ (and almost didn’t even win it if not for a late yellow)
2022- Meh
2023- meh.
In 10 years you have 3 or 4 champions that are even “moderately correct”
Big Gordon fan. I hate the chase/playoff for obvious reasons. Come join me and enjoy IMSA racing. No gimmicks. Just racing!
what's stopping them from going back to winston cup season long format? just make the wins worth more than they used to.
No, more often than not they reward luck over consistency.
Nascar should just get rid of this system
A few points:
- Random factors used to be dealt with (in many other motorsports) by counting only x best results of the season.
- Just read that Australian Supercars is introducing their own version of play offs for 2025... pretty sure I'm not watching it next season.
I am 32 i watched several Winston cup point battles. And heres a fun stat from the last year 2003. Your championship winning driver Matt kenseth won 1 race all year. Ryan Newman won 8 races in 03. People lost their minds and the chase was born.
I’ve been tracking the full season points using the current points system and Chase Elliott is having a 2003 Matt Kenseth esq season. Currently 3rd in points, 49 back of leader Larson, 21 back of Bell in 2nd and 13 ahead of Byron in 4th. Elliott has 1 win to Bell and Byron’s 3 and Larson’s 6.
Also have to factor in Ryan Newman's 7 DNF's and the points hole he dug himself into early in the 2003 season. He flipped at Daytona in the 500, there's a points hole there. He won at Texas in March but followed that up with 4 consecutive 38th or worst finishes. One of those finishes was that blown tire and half flip at Talladega that caused the big one. Newman won 8 times but had a ton of bad finishes. There's another points hole. Matt Kenseth had 22 top 10's in the first 28 races with a worst finish of 22nd at Martinsville. He didn't have a DNF until the 29th race, which was Talladega in October. Kenseth definitely deserved that championship in '03. In fact, it was a pretty dominate season for the 17 team despite not winning more than 1 race.
The format does care about legitimacy, it just wants that "game 7 moment"
Honestly, I'd like it if we brought back the 10-man Chase format.
YES. FOR REAL.
Ok. If NASCAR Wants To Keep The Playoffs, Simple.
Go Back To The Original Chase Format With The 2004-2006 10 Driver/2004-2013 10 Race Format, With Chase Points And No Points Resets For The NASCAR Cup Series, Only.
But, Go Back To The Full-Season Winston Cup Series Points Format, For The Lower Series, AKA The NASCAR Xfinity Series, and NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series.
The Nascar Cup championship used to be a very prestigious crown with a deep history. That is up until 2004. Prior to 2004, the Nascar champion was the champion. After that, it became a gimmick. I can't take any of the cup champions since then that serious. The "playoffs" is not for racing. Consistency is the best indicator of who the champion is. You know why Ryan Newman didn't win the title in 2003? He won 8 times, yes. But Ryan also flipped at Daytona and essentially flipped again at Talladega in April. He won at Texas in March '03 but followed that win with a 39th, 38th, 42nd, and 39th place finishes. He had a total of 7 DNF's. It was win or bust for Newman that season. Kenseth's worst finish through the first 28 races of the year was 22nd at Martinsville in April, with 22 top 10's. Kenseth built a 436 point lead on Kevin Harvick through those first 28 races. It took Kenseth until Talladega in the Fall to have a DNF (that was the race where Elliott Sadler flipped). Kenseth earned that title in 2003, in fact, it was perhaps one of the most dominate championship seasons in Cup history. If you want Wins to mean more. Then issue 100 bonus points to the race winner so that a large deficit can be made up. That's all that Nascar had to do. Just end this "Playoff" none sense.
What you offered for a fix is what I would do as a fix, but with a few tweaks:
1. Alongside the no "win and you're in", but more points for a win in the season, I'd like to add bigger gaps between some finishes like between 10th and 11th, between 6th and 5th, between 3rd and 4th and between 1st and second.
2. There is the winner take all final race, BUT the 37 other races act as a qualification to it like this:
The top 16 qualify for the 11 race play-offs. After 5 races 3 are eliminated and 3 more after the next 5. Then the final race gets one more practice session instead of a qualification and you start at the position you're at up to that point. (Like 1st in points start 1st, 2nd starts 2nd, etc. Those top 10 drivers just qualify at the top 10 positions.)
3. Stages remain, but stage cautions not.
4. As you see, I am expanding the season by 2 weeks. However, I am considering bye weeks.
I'm not sure if I'm proposing something alright and if I keep the final race that way, with the first 37 being like a qualifier to it, we need play-offs and elimination at all, but still... that's how I see things as the best compromise of the systems.
2020 kevin harvick got robbed and the 2018 big 3
Harvick didn’t perform when it mattered!
@@miketwotwentyno he got screwed
2010, 2015, 2016
Wasnt the whole point of the playoffs was to generate interest from the casuals? Seems to me that isnt working. Its not working in trucks and Daniel Hemric only won 1 race and it was the championship race, almost like the 2003 championship.
Hell No !! They Haven't Mattered ever since 2014, especially The Win and You're In
First I predict that Christopher Bell will win this year's championship in 2024
Everywhere I go...... there you are. ❤
@@christophergritti9873 yeah I know
he has the Winston Cup points lead as shown on Twitter
Spot on. Playoffs have got to go
Cup Series Points Standings (Chase Format)(Current points system)
1. Christopher Bell 2297
2. William Byron 2276
3. Kyle Larson 2257
4. Alex Bowman 2232
5. Joey Logano 2225
6. Chase Elliott 2210
7. Denny Hamlin 2205
8. Ryan Blaney 2204
9. Martin Truex Jr. 2194
10. Tyler Reddick 2179
11. Austin Cindric 2178
12. Daniel Suarez 2164
13. Ty Gibbs 2162
14. Brad Keselowski 2127
15. Chase Briscoe 2121
16. Harrison Burton 2087
If we get rid of win and in and make the final round more than 1 race then I don’t think there would be anywhere near as much controversy about whether or not the titles are deserved. I also think playoff tracks should be rotated way more often so no team can do what Johnson did in the Chase era
I say this all the time with how bad it's gotten. You can win all 35 races in the season; Finish 2nd in the last race of the season; and STILL not win the championship because one of the other drivers who was in the final four was the one who finished first in that last race
You could theoretically have an average finish of 1.028 and STILL not win the title 😂
"Mark Martin ahh luck"
I did that in a video game before. It took me a couple of seasons to figure it out. 😂
Good video with several valid points. I think the “win and you’re in” should not be included in the regular season. We simply need to get the top drivers into the playoff. From there, I’m fine with the format. But let’s start with the best of the best and not some one-off-luck stories.
Hot take: Playoffs in other sports are illegitimate too and they were always also gimmicks to create drama also by reducing the sample size of events, which will always produce a less fair champion. It's just people accept them because they usually existed decades before current fans were born. I remember when the BCS for college football was introduced and people HATED that too.
7:39 I wouldn't say it's not the only motorsport that actively punishes winners. There are plenty of sports car and touring car series that have success ballast where they add weight to the faster cars to slow them down in future races. Most racing series have something that could be considered a gimmick really.
7:50 2004 and 2011 Ford 400s weren't really the culmination of entire seasons either and there is no way you can argue either Busch or Stewart was the best driver those years.
NASCAR's biggest problem with all its points formats has been not awarding the top positions enough, and not just first. The positions outside the top 10/20 score way too many points to the point where mediocre finishes hurt you less than terrible finishes (even if you ran better in the race). That's always been the problem with every NASCAR points system (relative to IndyCar or F1 or whatever) and that was what needed fixed back in the day, not a playoff format. F1 and IndyCar did eventually get rid of their double points finales, so maybe there's a chance they'll go back to a full-points format. But please something more logarithmic and not something that's just 40-1 to "keep it simple for the fans" (which is so insulting by the way) when everybody knows (except NASCAR and the people who think the Winston-era points system was actually good) that the difference between a 2nd and 3rd place finish should be VASTLY more than the difference between a 32nd and 33rd place finish.
As long as NASCAR continues to think that this is entertaining and it keeps bringing the money in, They're not gonna change anything.
2004-06 format, or no chase at all
Kurt Busch’s championship run was underrated.
No chase at all please.
The 2004-2006 Format With 10 Drivers/2004-2013 10 Race Format With Chase Points And No Points Resets For The NASCAR Cup Series Only.
But Bring Back The Full-Season Winston Cup Format, For The Lower Series AKA The Xfinity Series And Truck Series.
This video hasn’t got near enough views and likes, you are spot on dude.
Nahhh just catering to youtube crybabies. ❤❤
10:57 Damn Nascar V8 supercars are doing this next year but you can't
And now we have a BIG problem... Another series is taking the playoffs format and they are the Australian V8 Supercars series with an even shorter playoffs format, the entire thing lasts 3 races .-. every "elimination round" is one round
I’m a Chase Elliot fan, and don’t view his “championship” as legitimate
at least he earned the most points overall in 2022, so at least there's that
He should have gotten it in 2022 instead of 2020.
It does if you aren’t Penske.
one thing that doesn’t get mentioned enough, we don’t know who would deserve or make it into a different championship format because ALL of the drivers would adjust
as someone who's been a pretty big playoff defender, i think I'm starting to break...
Nascar has stopped being a sport due to the playoffs. Harvick lost a championship in 2015 to the playoff system when Kyle Busch literally got playoff eligibility despite missing like 3-4 races due to injury. Before injury would just be the end of a season for that driver but nope now we have a guy who is 20th in points winning the championship. Do people who defend the current format not think its absolutely insane to have the 32 or 34th place driver in the championship or have a person who's like 10th in overall points win because they just happened to be Infront of everyone else at the final race... like... what goes through peoples minds?
Saw someone a while ago suggest something combining the chase format and the playoff format. Points get carried through every race and at the end of each round eliminate the bottom 4 in points. Just eliminate the drivers instead of resetting the points.
Depending on how that works, that could get too confusing. It's already bad enough as it is.
about 2016, hell no
Jimmie was the first driver to win multiple races in that year and in the playoffs he won the most number of races, with 3 wins, he won Charlotte and Martinsville to open the last two rounds in dominating fashion. He also led the 2016 Chase in average finish (9.2), laps led and driver rating, so he performed when mattered the most
I just sent out a letter to Steve Phelps in hopes that we could discuss possible changes come 2026 that can relegitimize the championship. Plan is to possibly meet him via Zoom or Skype on the 15th of November.
hey, I commend you for that, bro. good luck!
It's wild to me Nascar went for this insanely complex and unrewarding format instead of just giving double points for their finale on top of their 10 race Chase.
I think instead they should've just given out a much bigger points payout for a win regardless of the system
7:39
V8 Supercars: It might seem crazy what I'm about to say in 2025!
Joey shouldn't even be in this playoffs
AMEN! Absolutely Amen.
A football team has never had to forfeit a game because they had one bad snap that caused a fumble or a bad throw that led to an interception that got returned for a touchdown. They may have lost their momentum because of it, and maybe they lose the game if it was close and would have won otherwise, but they've never had to throw up their arms and just pack it up there, leaving the game with time on the clock.
In NASCAR, you can absolutely have a bad random incident, a part failure or even a momentary lapse of concentration that can put you out of the race before it's finished, or even before it's half way to finished. Heck, the lapse of concentration doesn't even have to be YOUR lapse of concentration. They're fundamentally different sports.
I grew up with the Elimination style format and liked it in 2014 and 2015 but it staring to taper off for me
You did a great job on this video.
Even in a sport like hockey where they not only count wins, but also count season long points to establish the playoffs. But when the playoffs start guess what you have to win to advance.
10:46 I feel that if NASCAR keeps it to be the 1 race take all and stage/playoff points don’t matter
Run the longest race of the season for the final race. Get rid of stages. If a caution comes out. It will be because of a crash or debris.
And at the end of like 600 laps. The driver in the final 4 that stood the test and time during the race, will be the champion.
But I do believe that we should have a 3 race final round that consists of Las Vegas, Martinsville, and Miami to crown a champion.
I agree 💯 percent winning in Nascar is Tuff theres some damn good drivers with 20 or less victories Just one win still gets trevor bayne publicly they still show and talk bout it every Daytona 500
I kept an open mind when they started the playoff system after Kenseth won the championship without a win but it just keeps getting worst. The champ should be the best overall driver for the entire season. I'm pretty close to not watching anymore, I already only watch whats on free tv. It wouldn't be that hard to give up entirely .
Yea but you have bad information. Kenseth won at Las Vegas in 2003
@@Bidens_Battle_Box oops, my bad, i thought he went winless. My point was, he had a good consistent year and deserved the championship. But it wasn't flashy enough for NASCAR .
@@jimsoutdooradventures2748 quite right, as a Kenseth fan I feel he was robbed of even more championships because of the goofy chase format. Drivers who excel over the course of a season and make less mistakes should be the champion. It should be a gauntlet as like back in the day where the cars were difficult to drive with alot more power, and where half the battle was racing the racetrack not just your competitors. It's all centered around entertainment and "moments" now that NASCAR just can't let happen organically they have to force it.
I’m good with the championship and playoffs format with some tweaks. I definitely don’t want to go back to the old format when we knew that Jimmy and Chad just needed to roll clean laps at the end of the year to be champs. The playoff format leads to better individual races, which is what I want to see. Championships are for the teams and for Hall of Fame decisions, etc. I just want the best racing possible each week. If we can fix some issues with this car (so that a flat tire doesn’t DQ a top team, then I’ll be all good.
This is my personal point system that I believe balances both winning and consistency
1st - 250
25 Points difference
2nd - 225
3rd - 215
4 - 205
5 - 195
10 Points difference
6 - 190
7 - 185
8 - 180
9 - 175
10 - 170
5 Points difference
11 - 167
12 - 164
13 - 161
14 - 158
15 - 155
16 - 152
17 - 149
18 - 146
19 - 143
20 - 140
3 Points difference
21 - 138
22 - 136
23 - 134
24 - 132
25 - 130
26 - 128
27 - 126
28 - 124
29 - 122
30 - 120
31 - 118
32 - 116
33 - 114
34 - 112
35 - 110
36 - 108
37 - 106
38 - 104
39 - 102
40 - 100
2 Points difference
Bonus Points
5 - Leading one lap
10 - Leading most laps
Stage Points
1st - 10 bonus points
2nd - 5 bonus points
3rd - 3 bonus points
4th - 2 bonus points
5th - 1 bonus points
Chase Bracket for last 12 races
(1st - 10th are 1st - 10th in regular season standings once 12 races remain
Wild Card is anyone 30th - 11th with the most wins)
(If wins are tied then the one with most points goes to the chase)
1st - 10,085
25 Point difference
2nd - 10,060
3rd - 10,050
10 Point difference
4th - 10,040
5th - 10,035
6th - 10,030
7th - 10,025
8th - 10,020
9th - 10,015
10th - 10,010
11 - Wild Card - 10,005
12 - Wild Card - 10,000
This I believe balances the past 20 years of chase/playoff formats with a clear champion at the end with tight point battles
As a fan of multiple other motorsports, I think the solution is to keep NASCAR's current points format, but eliminate over half of the stage races and the playoffs. Stage racing should only happen at tracks NASCAR visits twice as a way to make the 2 events different from each other. Then you just go by points. You would very likely have championships not be decided until the final race or final 2 races and a real legitimate champion is crowned while still keeping some of the flair that makes up the current point system, which is a good one. Just look at the regular season championships. They have been coming down to the last race or two to decide for the past decade or so with a couple notable exceptions. No reason why that same thing shouldn't play out for the actual championship as well.
Winning pays the bills, championships feed the ego.
In what universe does a 9 win season and a 7.7 avg finish doesnt win a title? This one.
Love the Dunder and Mifflin t-shirt that definitely caught my eye
Championship is supposed to reward the most consistent driver of the year. Thats why we should go back to that. If its down to the last race to decide, cool. If the champ locks it in early, then the deserving driver of the year won.
Devil's advocate:
NASCAR's current racing season is so long and has been so long for 30 years that (without a silly chase/playoff format) random bullcrap doesn't actually derail anything anymore unless it's a rare driver-sitting-out injury derailing the top team. Between 1990 and 2003 everyone knew who the champion was going to be at least four weeks in advance, as random factors could be overcome be just being boringly consistent, except for Marlin's injuries in 2002 and Davey Allison's in 1992. Even if mathematically Gordon or Earndhart or Labonte didn't lock up a title until a backmarker or two fell out in the season finale, the sheer number of random bullcrap that needed to happen to make things interesting was so statistically unlikely that no one really bothered following what would happen after the Southern 500 or Fall Dega race. It hurt NASCAR's late season draw and even Big Bill France Jr knew it, there's surveys floating around from the 2000 July Daytona weekend asking about why people weren't watching or attending late season races. The Chase and later Playoff formats are just overreactions to a system that protected too well against random bullcrap.
Of course the sensible option in 2004 would have been to ditch the Latford system (IMO take a hint from CART, JGTC, and modern F1 and only award points to the top 50-60% of drivers) and then to shorten the season back to 28-30 races so drivers couldn't protect against freak accidents with a pile of 19 top 10 finishes and ~115 extra points from leading a lap or two under yellow each weekend. Ironically doing that would also protect against the similar rating dropoff from NFL season starting up.
I love that Logano is hated on because his stats don't match up to deserving to get in the final 4.
But reality is ANY top 8 driver since this has been implemented could have been the "spoiler" of the series regardless of stats. We also have to realize this is Meg Griff- er sorry, Logano. He's always been hated for his on track mainly for stuff from years ago and for some current ones too. But put a Martin Truex, or a Chase Eliott or C-Bell in that exact position and same performance, then it's actually seen as "AWESOME" cause they're more seen as "good guys".
I don't like this format at all, but I will not hate the driver as many do. It's a strategy in my opinion. Put as little to the car, use weatherd chassis and worn motors all year, sneak in, get into the playoffs, invest a little just to get in, then if you reach final 4, throw EVERYTHING at it: new chassis, more powerful motor, EVERYTHING to win. (Again my opinion)
Had they run the old winston style, teams would have to change strategy and do/drive differently.
I think they should give bonus points for top 5 and top 10, not only wins
Congrats to Logano for winning his third Mickey Mouse championship!
You know your championship format is gimmicky bullshit when not even Mario Kart does it
Honestly, I think this is why competitions like the Premier League without playoffs tend to make more sense...as every game matters in the season. There isn't a single game that is given less or more weight than others. Sometimes it can feel like it depending on who a particular team is playing and the outcome of other results, but playoff formats tend to work against the purpose of regular seasons.
Interesting discussion to have - I took a philosophy of sport class during college (which was one of my favorite classes), and it was fun trying to weigh and discuss these things.
Personal plot twist and question - is competition a good goal anyways? I think it isn't, but of competitive structures that exist, the fairest one I can think of is a season like the Premier League or other non-American soccer league.
Got to get rid of win and your in and go back to the pld Chase its crazy a driver can win 35 races and and lead every lap but if they get crash by the 2nd place in points they lose the title it's not about points anymore and I'm a big joey logano fan
Prestige. If I won a championship, I'd gloat.
Hey, NASCAR here since the 60's.