Do magnesium sliders on my mtb forks count? Which brings me to a downside of using steel bolts in magnesium holes: it can be easy to strip the threads in the hole if you aren't careful enough - I know this from experience!
I purchased a Vaast A/1 frame and built it up with XTR drivetrain, Paul Klamper calipers, and Thomson hardware. I really can't tell the ride difference compared to carbon, but being the bike nerd I am, I just had to get one. I haven't crashed it yet, but I did drop a pedal wrench on it without any issues! The price (about USD $1200) made it a good value.
In the US there was a mtb company that made magnesium frames - lodestar. They rode like the alu frames of the time but were not made well. Cracked too often
LOVE deeper dives into the materials & chemistry of our cycling lives. Strong believer that this specific educational path leads directly to environmental impact awareness. Keep ‘em coming!
We have 2 Vaast magnesium frames and the are AWESOME. I’ve had/got every frame type and never had anything ride so smooth. It’s otherworldly. Incredible material for gravel bikes where you ride surfaces with lots of chatter.
I have the Vaast A1 and LOVE it! It rides and feels a lot like a nice carbon frame. It’s super responsive and definitely very compliant. I’ve only got a couple hundred miles on mine but I’ll post more details here when I’ve got some serious miles on it. I test drove one here in New York and loved it so much that I traded it in for my Cannondale Topstone 5. The A1 is about $1000 less expensive than the Topstone 5 and honestly I much prefer it.
I'm currently thinking of getting one as my first gravel Bike. Is the A/1 good on road as well? I was thinking of getting the 2x GRX but for the price I think the GRX400 isn t the best I could get...any input or recommendations on that for a beginner like me?
Cool. Got a bike made from Mg alloy - a Scott Strike G-Zero MTB. Okay, its only the rear triangle that's Mg and the rest of the frame is Carbon, but still, it is great and good to see more bikes being made of the stuff
would say magnesium is a competitor to aluminum. not steel, titanium or carbon. so an in depth compairison between a comparable frame from Al and Mg would be interesting for the consumer
I wouldn't say they are competitor materials so much as a material is a tool to be used. Each have their place and none is the perfect material for all bikes.
@@cjohnson3836 l mean that they are much closer purchase decision wise. if u want titantium u get titanium. u want carbon u get carbon. but it magnesium gets more widely used the decision could be Al or Mg? while with the other materials it's a decision between frames and not material let's be real
I’ve got about 300 miles into my Vaast A1 and I would definitely not compare it to aluminum or steel. It feels a lot like carbon. Almost impossible to distinguish the ride quality between this bike and a carbon bike. I was able to test drive the bike side-by-side with my Cannondale Topstone five and I ended up trading in the Cannondale towards the A1.
Oh, I never thought to scrap my 27 year old made in America Cannondale m600. At $.40 a pound I could get about $2 minus the gas to get out there. Thanks for the suggestion!
Aircooled VW engine cases are also made from a magnesium alloy. Here's a pro tip: should your magnesium bike frame or VW engine case somehow catch fire, do NOT douse it with water.
dampening means that their is an hysteresis in the loading curve which is not the case with a metal that has not bent plasticly, hence the need for oil circulating shocks on a working suspension. Metal alone is not dampening the cinetic energy of an impact.
Whatever savings you get from choosing a magnesium bike will be for the expensive coating and painting? I don't know I talk for me but most riders are concerned with costs along with weight. Its still a shame that AL and MAG bikes cannot be ridden bare like Ti bikes. One of the things I like about a Ti bike is that it doesn't need colour and the natural Titanium looks so amazing.
I'm not a fan of "lumpy" welds. I have a feeling that because of it's low ignition temp, it wouldn't be easy to grind the welds. (unless it was done without Oxygen being present)
Yeah, I think they're terribly ugly but you could probably smooth it out with a filler if it really mattered to you. It'd add a few grams but a few grams isn't going to make a difference for most of us.
@@MarioXcore1 If I'm spending the money they ask for bike frames these days, I want it to be more than just functional. A purely functional bike can be had for a fraction of the prices they charge.
I just did an EcoAudit in GrantaEdupack - and I got bad news for the carbon guys especially. carbon fiber bike frame uses almost 500% of the energy an Alu 6061 would need in total. In the manufacturing process of the product, yes Magnesium uses much less - but the manufacturing energy needed, is so small compared to the production of the material itself (also including the typical percentage of reused material). So if we take a 1.5kg alu 6061 frame as a baseline we have the following alternatives: a 1kg Ti-Al3-2.5V titanium frame (+97% energy, +70% CO2e), a 0,8kg Carbon fiber frame (+490% energy, +480% CO2e) and a 1kg Magnesium allow AZ31 (+30% energy, +17% CO2e). So if you ask the planet - go Aluminium!
I seem to remember Mike Burrows saying that Magnesium has poor fatigue resistance. I wonder how they dealt with that? A Beryllium Aluminium alloy frame would be awesome, I can’t even imagine the cost though.
Very intelligent and interesting video :) Your concept of youngs modulus might be a bit off. Youngs modulus is stiffness of a given material for a given geometry. It doesn't tell a person about the strength of the material. A weak steel and strong steel will both be ~200gpa
A material's Young's modulus, or elastic modulus, is the stress at which it starts to deform in a plastic manner, rather than elastically. Constant stress (or load) above the elastic limit will cause continual deformation, whereas below the elastic limit the material can recover. As I recall, stainless steel doesn't have a well-defined elastic limit, but a 'reasonable' value can be used for engineering calculations. Carbon steels are about the value you state. Vibration of a frame is a function of it's overall geometry, component's geometry, and materials. A frame will have a natural frequency, and multiples thereof, at which it 'likes' to vibrate, much like a musical instrument. The compliance, as I understand it, is the amount of deflection under a rider's weight causing impacts on undulations in the road surface, or their pedalling force, and it depends on the frame's overall geometry, component's geometry, and materials. This explains why a carbon frame (using material with a low elastic modulus) can be stiffer than a steel frame (using material with a much higher elastic modulus). And why steel is real.
@@richardharris8538 @Richard Harris I appreciate the answer. I have some corrections. I believe you mean elastic vs inelastic "yielding" of the material. Steel does not have a fatigue limit when kept in laboratory environments, but the real world has corrosion that would limit that applicablility of this concept to a bike frame. Carbon is actually a high modulus material that can typically be 180gpa, as compared to 200gpa for steel. It can even exceed the stiffness of steel with high modulus carbon. I think we agree that a low modulus combined with a geometry of larger moment of area can compare equally to a material of high modulus and lower moment of area. This will define the rigidity and thus vibration qualities of the bike. I should note here that the low density should be of benefit to increasing the frequency of vibration as defined by the square root of the weight/stiffness of any given material. Carbon fiber is actually really good stuff, but sometimes suffers because it is made so light. A carbon frame of equal weight to steel would be unimaginably strong with a lifetime exceeding that of the biker (and consequently very expensive). I do appreciate the ductility of steel compared to carbon. Impact is not kind to carbon. I would not ride carbon on a mt bike. I would not choose steel for a tour de france elite athlete.
@@ZebraLemur Oops! My bad. My excuse is that I haven't thought about this stuff for years. (I'm retired.) What I meant to say is, "A material's yield stress is the stress at which it starts to deform in a plastic manner, rather than elastically." The Young's modulus or elastic modulus (stress / strain) is used to calculate deflection when stresses are less than the elastic limit or yield stress. Fatigue failure occurs when a sufficient number of stress reversals or stress variations occur to cause the material to fracture. I've forgotten the materials science explanation of fatigue failure. Something to do with inclusions moving through a matrix of crystalline grains, I think.
Is anyone making magnesium alloy frames other than VAAST? I almost purchased one of their frames last year but I decided that I just do not like the dropped chainstay. I think if they were to make a road frame with traditional geometry I would probably be the first in line to get one.
I assume that magnesium framed bikes when sold come with carbon forks. Indeed all decent frames whatever their material are still supplied with carbon forks. Is nobody working on replacing carbon as the "go to" material in this area?
It’s a material that just doesn’t really have a point to it? I mean for a bike frame. It’s heavier than Carbon and Titanium. (In the video they say it’s lighter than titanium but that’s only the raw material.) The Magnesium frame in the video is unpainted and it’s already 1kg. After paint you can add another 2-300g at least. A top end titanium frame can be as little as 950g and can be left unpainted. Durability? Well similar to aluminium and like aluminium if you damage it it can’t really be re-welded. You just throw it away. Unlike carbon that can be repaired in some situations and titanium and steel that is less likely to get damaged and easier to repair. Also it corrodes, unlike titanium that doesn’t. So upkeep of a Ti frame is so much easier. Price? Well because it’s so uncommon you will be paying a premium, you can actually get titanium for a similar price and aluminium for much less. Even cheap Chinese carbon is now and option if you are that way inclined? Steel is also less if you are looking in the right places. The ride will be similar to aluminium, so not comfortable. Unlike titanium or steel. Even some carbon bikes now aren’t terrible for comfort. So unfortunately, I honestly see no advantage to this bike Material. Spend a bit more or look for a sale on a titanium bike.
i want to see a bike made with steel carbon magnesium and aluminum in one bike. it would be interesting to see and what balance could be atained with such a an array of materials
He does. Maybe he read wikipedia as they say "Many kinds of seaweed produce chloroform, and fungi are believed to produce chloroform in soil" But I'm only a retired pharmacist. I believe anything a doctor tells me.
Ask GCN in this Regard.. as far as i know.. Alloy has no Endurance Limit which translate to it has a fatigue Life... does this also apply to Magnesium frames?
There must be a reason you don't see him ride a magnesium bike but just talk about it. At GCN they all ride carbon frame bikes (mostly Orbea with Vision wheels).
Aw yeah. More videos with Ollie taking us to downtown Nerdville. I love it! I really enjoy the videos that dive deeper into scientific aspects and Dr. Ollie Bridgewood is clearly not only super qualified to do so but also funny enough to make it entertaining. Keep 'em coming please! :)
American Classic used to produce magnesium bike rims, among the lightest rims ever produced. The corrosion issue didn't suit rim brakes but, disc brake rims avoid that issue. I hope someone starts producing magnesium rims again soon. A low section, magnesium clincher rim weighed 290 grams, that's 100-200 grams lighter than the average alloy rim.
Magnesium is used in motorcycles. They use it for parts and covers as well as wheels. At least they did. I've not followed motorcycling for a few years now but I don't think it's changed.
@@phillippitts6294 What part(s) of the hub did you break? I'm still riding a front hub that I've had from the early 90's. Seems fine with very smooth bearings and a retro look. It's 28 holes laced to a Mavic rim. I don't have the rear any more since it was 126 mm spacing and used a 7 speed freewheel, and I don't have any use for that any more. But it was good for a long time as far as I could tell.
I was an active photographer and back then majority of the dslr body is made from magnesium alloy. Tough and lightweight. Was thinking before why not use this same metal on bikes and just learned today that magnesium bikes existed before. Interesting. Thanks GCN!
As a car enthusiast I can add that magnesium alloys were also used in 60s/70s top level motorsport. Magnesium wheels were rather common in the scene at some point, and some race cars even had magnesium alloy tubeframes. They were abandoned due to fire hazards, but that's obviously much less of a concern in bicycle riding, so it makes sense to be used there. So I guess the only reason to pick titanium over magnesium is corrosiveness?
I’ve had many bikes , they have been made of aluminium, steel, titanium, magnesium and carbon The only bike frame I’ve ever had snap was --- magnesium 🙄🙄
@@argh1989 I would certainly think it unlikely but “snapped” with no other info leaves a lot of room for speculation. That’s why I asked. A notch on a tube from an accident or mishandling could lead to a stress concentration that could propagate to failure. Murphy’s law. 🤷♂️
Ollie stick to Chemistry bud! Damping and stiffness are two completely different things. Low Modulus materials are just less stiff and will vibrate at a lower resonance with larger amplitude. This isn't damping. Most metals only have about 0.1% max molecular damping.
wow.. here's me thinking I couldn't actually care less about the vibrational dampenning of a frames material.. but here we are.. You proved me wrong.. congratulations.
When biking my current bike I actually looked at magnesium. Went with carbon mainly because I hadn't had a carbon bike yet and was itching to finally have a carbon one. And because the selection of magnesium bikes is stilly very narrow, mainly Vaast Bikes, and so far they're mostly US-only. Maybe when I buy my next bike in x years there will be more magnesium bikes available, would be cool.
Vaast has also been majorly out of stock any time I've peeked, at least for the frames I'd be mildly interested in. Also kind of annoyed there's none with cable stop/shifter bosses on the downtube, the lack of options is a problem.
FYI, Had a customer bring a magnesium frame in that he had bent the rear triangle on, while backing up in his garage on a rear rack, at first I thought it would be like Aluminum, unable to cold set, Leonard Zinn of VeloNews told me it can be done just like a steel frame. With a little effort it we realigned it. (Paketa bike)
I know that Pinarello made a Magnesium bike back in the early 2000's. I remember reading about it in Bicycling magazine. I would have liked to have had the chance to test ride it. If I had the money, I would love to buy a Magnesium bike, so long as it's rim brake, and a threaded bottom bracket. Unfortunately they are still very difficult to find. Thank you.
I own one! I'm not sure I even knew what I was getting, really. It's the AK61. I just a regular rider, but it feels great, does everything I want from a road bike, and for the $1000 I paid for it all set up and ready to roll with campagnolo kit it's a keeper. I think about all the fancy stuff (electronic shifting and disc brakes, etc.) but once I'm riding all that disappears. It's a bit heavier than carbon and for a few years that got in my head but … now it's out! Besides, it's about pleasure and exercise, not saving off seconds for me. Great bike.
How exactly did I get to the point in my life where I'm watching a youtube guy try to light his bike on fire? I guess there were a lot of bad decisions that led me here but at least I can say that Ollie didn't "drop" his bike when the pace got too hot.
If bare, corrosion will start. My hunch is standard installation procedure after threading the BB would be to coat the threaded area heavily with a thick grease or similar compound then install the races.
"Chlorophyll? More like Borophyll!" Ollie's hairline is must see tv. Also, this video feels like GCN is going to start building and sell magnesium frames. Eurobike 2.0.
@@GCNuser123 It's a foolproof way of determining victors and future champs. If everything is equal(skills, size, strength, experience, etc.), then a much fuller and glorious hairline would be the determining factor.
Would love to see Vaast put together a Mg alloy prototype bike that includes a frame, but also Mg rims, hubs, seat post and collar, handlebar, stem, fork, cranks and « fenders » as Ollie calls them. Then, have him ride this for 1000 km on all sorts of terrain like hill climbs, gravel, TT, in rain, snow and shine. Finally, do a follow up video on the bike. Curious to know if such a bike will be a Vaast improvement over existing bikes.
Yeah, unfortunately, magnesium didnt caught up. The last time ive seen one was from my friends dad in the early 90's. I remembered how surprise i was wgen i held it for the firt time. Its significantly lighter than the kids BMX that we had in that time
Genuinely love the high school science experiments mixed in! I remember seeing Si review a magnesium frame I think a few years ago. I haven't been due for a new bike yet but I hope I can get my hands on one of these frames when I do build a new bike!
Im still running a 2005 merida magnesium elite in blue/green with updated bits, still looks BOX FRESH too and i absolutely love the thing, never part with it
Bought myself a Vaast A/1 not long ago. It's a seriously good bike, and for a while the pricing on it was outright insane: I got my 1x11 Rival hydraulic build with Stans wheels and a carbon crankset (!) for just $1700. Not to mention, it was actually in stock and available for online ordering, which was a miracle in current times. I would like to note something on the video: right around 10:30 you mention that magnesium, as a more compliant metal, can be softer and more flexible in a bike frame. You also mention that alloys can make up for this. Strictly speaking, this isn't really true; assuming the geometry of a given frame stays the same, how soft or flexible it is correlates directly with how compliant it is, and both correlate directly to the material's Young's modulus. (By geometry, I mean things like the tube profiles and shapes of the joints, not things like stack or reach or top tube length) You can't make this theoretical frame stiffer without also making it less compliant, and the only way to accomplish either is to alter the Young's modulus. Alloys in general cannot alter Young's modulus significantly compared to the base metal, so it's not correct to say that you can make a bike stiffer and less flexible while keeping the same compliance simply by using an alloy. So, put in simpler terms, theoretically a frame made out of pure magnesium and an identical frame made of AE81 alloy will have practically identical stiffness and compliance characteristics. The alloy improves neither characteristic. However, the difference is that the pure magnesium frame will almost certainly be too weak to ride, and may fold under you as soon as you sit on it. (The same thing applies for pure aluminium vs aluminium alloy, pure iron vs steel, and pure titanium vs titanium alloy) Instead, what you can and should do is alter the geometry of the tubes and joints outright. By, say, flattening out certain parts of a tube, or using different wall thicknesses on different sections of tube, you can change the flexibility of the frame on different axes. That's how the so-called "lateral stiffness and vertical compliance" is achieved in isotropic materials such as metals. (Carbon gives you more options with the orientation of the fibers.) Sometimes, these changes will require certain alloys to maintain the same strength or fatigue standards, but the benefits found for increasing stiffness while maintaining compliance are still a result of the tube and joint shapes, not in the alloy. This is why hydroforming aluminum is such a common practice, and why tube butting is used on so many different metal bikes.
So, that is super interesting, but you didn't address the question of "Why"... Is it more expensive (if it's so abundant, then it shouldn't be), is it harder to weld? What's the scoop here. You've sold me on the concept but haven't explained why it hasn't gotten more widespread adoption.
The lightest or least dense metal that is a pure element is lithium, which has a density of 0.534 g/cm3. This makes lithium nearly half as dense as water, so if lithium was not so reactive, a chunk of the metal would float on water. Two other metallic elements are less dense than water.
"cheaper than titanium" These Vaast frames seems to be pretty on par with some of the titanium offerings, and I haven't even found another company making magnesium bikes. where in ti there are lots of brands some definitely way more expensive than Vaasts offering, but some cost way less. Maybe the raw material is cheaper and more abundant in the earth but doesn't seem to relate to the price of the product.
Carbon fiber, aluminium and titanium were ridiculously expensive when they were first introduced, I'm willing to allow that the price will come down when Mg achieves the same level of prevalence.
@@galenkehler I don’t think they’ll sell magnesium bikes any cheaper . It’s all profit driven, it’s as much as someone is prepared to pay for them. Sales and marketing will be on one to achieve the maximum price that they can get from a buyer(s)
@@galenkehler It won't. Aluminium is cheaper and more abundant in the supply chain, Carbon is better but more expensive. Magnesium bike frames really don't have a place in the market, much like titanium bikes don't really either, they are just niche products for the sake of it. You can make an argument for Steel touring bikes being repairable by any off the track shop, but even that is a bit tenuous given the alloys used in higher end ones. This is exactly what it says it is, an Ad. If you want cheap and robust it is a Aluminium, and formally Steel, if you want top end performance, it is Carbon. If you want a fashion piece, maybe go with Magnesium, Titanium, Bamboo, or even wood.
Ehhh what? Vaast is selling their all road frameset for comparable prices to steel frames like those of All City or Velo Orange. Where are you seeing titanium frames for $1300 USD? That's either slave labor or very questionable "titanium".
I had Kirk Revolution (well I brought one) of these started off with a purple frame plus replacement then a black frame. Snapped a few parts of the frames.
I really hope magnesium becomes common to produce because carbon bike prices have gone stupid so I can no longer afford to upgrade compared to a few years ago. My trusty old alloy steed will continue to serve me until then….
Sikorsky made a twin rotor helicopter back in the 50's or 60's the whole airframe was made of Magnesium , once it caught fire it couldn't be put out they had to let in burn even covered in foam. I worked on F4-D models and we got to see all the cool training disaster films. They showed what happens when you mix oil and liquid O2, BANG!
So glad to hear that polar bears approve of our cycling choices...😂😂😂 I was imagining how they wondered what would be our material of choice to make bikes, while they were out fishing for their next meal...
Amazingly this video kept my science obsessed child fascinated for the whole thing (think it was the flames and the crystals not the bike frame though) Science is cool. 🤓 We love you too Dr B! Bye
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Have you ever used a Magnesium frame?
does 5xxx alloy count?
Do magnesium sliders on my mtb forks count?
Which brings me to a downside of using steel bolts in magnesium holes: it can be easy to strip the threads in the hole if you aren't careful enough - I know this from experience!
I purchased a Vaast A/1 frame and built it up with XTR drivetrain, Paul Klamper calipers, and Thomson hardware. I really can't tell the ride difference compared to carbon, but being the bike nerd I am, I just had to get one. I haven't crashed it yet, but I did drop a pedal wrench on it without any issues! The price (about USD $1200) made it a good value.
I’ve used a magnesium mountain bike for 5 years with no issues whatsoever. It was light and I loved it!
In the US there was a mtb company that made magnesium frames - lodestar. They rode like the alu frames of the time but were not made well. Cracked too often
LOVE deeper dives into the materials & chemistry of our cycling lives. Strong believer that this specific educational path leads directly to environmental impact awareness. Keep ‘em coming!
Glad you found it interesting
You could potentially have lots of material / parts to cover in this way. Very interesting. We want more of this!
NERD!!.
true....it was actually kinda informational..but still...the fact remains.........................lol.
Good description of Young's modulus in there. I'm not saying it was correct but it was entertaining.
The 5 year old says so!
Bloody aerospace engineers
Takes time out from humping hairdresser to say stuff.
(also, judging by current hairstyle I suspect you're not pumping correctly)
Young's Modulus aged 5.
He did say he wanted to explain it in a way that all would understand - so he left out the correct bits
I knew if I kept my 20 year old magnesium alloy bike long enough it would come back into fashion!
Paketa??
I have an almost brand new Kirk revolution MTB. 25 years old, original tires, inner tube and grips!
*lol thats jokes what kind of bike bro?*
@@YukiTsunoda7 You'd be too young to remember them, real class takes time to apperciate.
We have 2 Vaast magnesium frames and the are AWESOME. I’ve had/got every frame type and never had anything ride so smooth. It’s otherworldly. Incredible material for gravel bikes where you ride surfaces with lots of chatter.
I have the Vaast A1 and LOVE it! It rides and feels a lot like a nice carbon frame. It’s super responsive and definitely very compliant. I’ve only got a couple hundred miles on mine but I’ll post more details here when I’ve got some serious miles on it.
I test drove one here in New York and loved it so much that I traded it in for my Cannondale Topstone 5. The A1 is about $1000 less expensive than the Topstone 5 and honestly I much prefer it.
I'm currently thinking of getting one as my first gravel Bike. Is the A/1 good on road as well? I was thinking of getting the 2x GRX but for the price I think the GRX400 isn t the best I could get...any input or recommendations on that for a beginner like me?
Cool. Got a bike made from Mg alloy - a Scott Strike G-Zero MTB. Okay, its only the rear triangle that's Mg and the rest of the frame is Carbon, but still, it is great and good to see more bikes being made of the stuff
Awesome humorous video presentation. Thank you Ollie 😁🙌
Blowtorch the magnesium frame. For science.
would say magnesium is a competitor to aluminum. not steel, titanium or carbon. so an in depth compairison between a comparable frame from Al and Mg would be interesting for the consumer
I wouldn't say they are competitor materials so much as a material is a tool to be used. Each have their place and none is the perfect material for all bikes.
@@cjohnson3836 l mean that they are much closer purchase decision wise. if u want titantium u get titanium. u want carbon u get carbon. but it magnesium gets more widely used the decision could be Al or Mg? while with the other materials it's a decision between frames and not material let's be real
I’ve got about 300 miles into my Vaast A1 and I would definitely not compare it to aluminum or steel. It feels a lot like carbon. Almost impossible to distinguish the ride quality between this bike and a carbon bike. I was able to test drive the bike side-by-side with my Cannondale Topstone five and I ended up trading in the Cannondale towards the A1.
Fantastic video professor Ollie! I really want a Mg frame now! Oh and keep that guy on staff forever, no one can explain as well as he can.
Previously owned the first Pinarello Dogma which was a magmesium alloy frame. Was a great bike
Oh, I never thought to scrap my 27 year old made in America Cannondale m600. At $.40 a pound I could get about $2 minus the gas to get out there. Thanks for the suggestion!
I've always been curious about them, it's good to know Vast has them ready to go when I finally pull the trigger.
Can't wait to see first frames made from either vibranium or unobtanium!
Aircooled VW engine cases are also made from a magnesium alloy. Here's a pro tip: should your magnesium bike frame or VW engine case somehow catch fire, do NOT douse it with water.
dampening means that their is an hysteresis in the loading curve which is not the case with a metal that has not bent plasticly, hence the need for oil circulating shocks on a working suspension. Metal alone is not dampening the cinetic energy of an impact.
Whatever savings you get from choosing a magnesium bike will be for the expensive coating and painting? I don't know I talk for me but most riders are concerned with costs along with weight. Its still a shame that AL and MAG bikes cannot be ridden bare like Ti bikes. One of the things I like about a Ti bike is that it doesn't need colour and the natural Titanium looks so amazing.
Great video. Love this stuff. I know that this is pretty niche, but I'd really like for you to go over stainless steel frames.
I'm not a fan of "lumpy" welds. I have a feeling that because of it's low ignition temp, it wouldn't be easy to grind the welds. (unless it was done without Oxygen being present)
Yeah, I think they're terribly ugly but you could probably smooth it out with a filler if it really mattered to you. It'd add a few grams but a few grams isn't going to make a difference for most of us.
@@JoeJoe-lq6bd My old, first generation Aluminum Giant TCR was made with filler, and looks 100% better than this one, with it's blobby welds.
Who cares, welds are functional
@@MarioXcore1 If I'm spending the money they ask for bike frames these days, I want it to be more than just functional. A
purely functional bike can be had for a fraction of the prices they charge.
How about hydroforming magnesium frames? The mass market would be more likely to buy a nicely formed frame over tubes.
Great call
depends on the person. For many of us, the tubing aesthetics of steel is one of the benefits over Alu
Only bike channel that manages to put Sodium in water, love it.
@2:33 I thought the metal used in sparklers was iron. Magnesium used to be used in single use photography flashes.
"If you've got any friends" - this did hit hard TT
2:30 case in point, it's really easy to set steel on fire. Just grab a hunk of fine steel wool, and put a match to it.
I just did an EcoAudit in GrantaEdupack - and I got bad news for the carbon guys especially. carbon fiber bike frame uses almost 500% of the energy an Alu 6061 would need in total. In the manufacturing process of the product, yes Magnesium uses much less - but the manufacturing energy needed, is so small compared to the production of the material itself (also including the typical percentage of reused material). So if we take a 1.5kg alu 6061 frame as a baseline we have the following alternatives: a 1kg Ti-Al3-2.5V titanium frame (+97% energy, +70% CO2e), a 0,8kg Carbon fiber frame (+490% energy, +480% CO2e) and a 1kg Magnesium allow AZ31 (+30% energy, +17% CO2e). So if you ask the planet - go Aluminium!
I’m all for trying it, but I don’t see major brands offering it.
I seem to remember Mike Burrows saying that Magnesium has poor fatigue resistance. I wonder how they dealt with that? A Beryllium Aluminium alloy frame would be awesome, I can’t even imagine the cost though.
Very intelligent and interesting video :)
Your concept of youngs modulus might be a bit off. Youngs modulus is stiffness of a given material for a given geometry. It doesn't tell a person about the strength of the material. A weak steel and strong steel will both be ~200gpa
A material's Young's modulus, or elastic modulus, is the stress at which it starts to deform in a plastic manner, rather than elastically. Constant stress (or load) above the elastic limit will cause continual deformation, whereas below the elastic limit the material can recover. As I recall, stainless steel doesn't have a well-defined elastic limit, but a 'reasonable' value can be used for engineering calculations. Carbon steels are about the value you state.
Vibration of a frame is a function of it's overall geometry, component's geometry, and materials. A frame will have a natural frequency, and multiples thereof, at which it 'likes' to vibrate, much like a musical instrument. The compliance, as I understand it, is the amount of deflection under a rider's weight causing impacts on undulations in the road surface, or their pedalling force, and it depends on the frame's overall geometry, component's geometry, and materials.
This explains why a carbon frame (using material with a low elastic modulus) can be stiffer than a steel frame (using material with a much higher elastic modulus). And why steel is real.
@@richardharris8538 @Richard Harris I appreciate the answer. I have some corrections. I believe you mean elastic vs inelastic "yielding" of the material. Steel does not have a fatigue limit when kept in laboratory environments, but the real world has corrosion that would limit that applicablility of this concept to a bike frame. Carbon is actually a high modulus material that can typically be 180gpa, as compared to 200gpa for steel. It can even exceed the stiffness of steel with high modulus carbon.
I think we agree that a low modulus combined with a geometry of larger moment of area can compare equally to a material of high modulus and lower moment of area. This will define the rigidity and thus vibration qualities of the bike. I should note here that the low density should be of benefit to increasing the frequency of vibration as defined by the square root of the weight/stiffness of any given material.
Carbon fiber is actually really good stuff, but sometimes suffers because it is made so light. A carbon frame of equal weight to steel would be unimaginably strong with a lifetime exceeding that of the biker (and consequently very expensive). I do appreciate the ductility of steel compared to carbon. Impact is not kind to carbon. I would not ride carbon on a mt bike. I would not choose steel for a tour de france elite athlete.
@@ZebraLemur Oops! My bad. My excuse is that I haven't thought about this stuff for years. (I'm retired.) What I meant to say is, "A material's yield stress is the stress at which it starts to deform in a plastic manner, rather than elastically." The Young's modulus or elastic modulus (stress / strain) is used to calculate deflection when stresses are less than the elastic limit or yield stress.
Fatigue failure occurs when a sufficient number of stress reversals or stress variations occur to cause the material to fracture. I've forgotten the materials science explanation of fatigue failure. Something to do with inclusions moving through a matrix of crystalline grains, I think.
Magnesium will be perfect for my need to be able to ride thru low standing water at times.
Great video. It reminds me that 11-year-old me thought it would be super-rad to be able to afford mag wheels for my BMX bike.
Ollie, you did it again! Great content
Is anyone making magnesium alloy frames other than VAAST? I almost purchased one of their frames last year but I decided that I just do not like the dropped chainstay. I think if they were to make a road frame with traditional geometry I would probably be the first in line to get one.
The sodium experiment is missleading, magnesium bereacts similarly in water
I assume that magnesium framed bikes when sold come with carbon forks. Indeed all decent frames whatever their material are still supplied with carbon forks. Is nobody working on replacing carbon as the "go to" material in this area?
Cool video, would be curious how it compares to the old Scandium Eddy Merckx bikes
Doc Ollie is best Ollie!
I take magnesium supplements, combined with my carbon frame I think I'll be top🚴
No cramping for you then!
@@kstethespokes1051 Nope😃
It’s a material that just doesn’t really have a point to it? I mean for a bike frame.
It’s heavier than Carbon and Titanium. (In the video they say it’s lighter than titanium but that’s only the raw material.) The Magnesium frame in the video is unpainted and it’s already 1kg. After paint you can add another 2-300g at least. A top end titanium frame can be as little as 950g and can be left unpainted.
Durability? Well similar to aluminium and like aluminium if you damage it it can’t really be re-welded. You just throw it away. Unlike carbon that can be repaired in some situations and titanium and steel that is less likely to get damaged and easier to repair.
Also it corrodes, unlike titanium that doesn’t. So upkeep of a Ti frame is so much easier.
Price? Well because it’s so uncommon you will be paying a premium, you can actually get titanium for a similar price and aluminium for much less. Even cheap Chinese carbon is now and option if you are that way inclined? Steel is also less if you are looking in the right places.
The ride will be similar to aluminium, so not comfortable. Unlike titanium or steel. Even some carbon bikes now aren’t terrible for comfort.
So unfortunately, I honestly see no advantage to this bike Material.
Spend a bit more or look for a sale on a titanium bike.
i want to see a bike made with steel carbon magnesium and aluminum in one bike. it would be interesting to see and what balance could be atained with such a an array of materials
Love this video, thanks... but at 7:20 does Ollie say the if the plant were real it would have chloroform in it?
He does. Maybe he read wikipedia as they say "Many kinds of seaweed produce chloroform, and fungi are believed to produce chloroform in soil" But I'm only a retired pharmacist. I believe anything a doctor tells me.
I love those Videos!
Wow! Very informative indeed. I feel like I have earned some college credit hours in chemistry.
I like your point, I love welding metals,sauf que, steel is real.
So if I have one, I can eat a bit of it each day as part of my multi V intake? 😁
Ask GCN in this Regard..
as far as i know..
Alloy has no Endurance Limit which translate to it has a fatigue Life...
does this also apply to Magnesium frames?
What about those living In sub zero climates?
I bike year round -30 to 37c in Somers cases
ok, so now i want a magnesium frame!!! Just need the money first. 😆
i do have a suntour xcr magnesium fork and its very light
In my knowledge the lowers on the XCR are mag, the other parts not.
But it's a good fork within its limits, I also have 2
I was watching this and my five year old was watching over my shoulder and she asked "can we go over to his house to learn how to make bikes?" 😅
What are the downsides? Why isn't it already more common?
If magnesium is so good, why just the frame ? Why not also the chain, sprockets, bearings, races, axles...?
So Ollie, I can buy this frame and not have to ride up grades, I could buy upgrades? Sold
Pinarello allegedly abandoned magnesium not just because of the advent of carbon but also due to production costs.
Frank Kirk (Kirk Precision) was 30 years ahead of his time.
Do a "5 Things you Need to know about Aluminium Bikes"
There must be a reason you don't see him ride a magnesium bike but just talk about it. At GCN they all ride carbon frame bikes (mostly Orbea with Vision wheels).
The problem with magnesium frame is only few manufacturers make them
Did he say plants have “chloroform” instead of “chlorophyll” @7:18?
And then finding those magnesium frames is as easy as to finding a ticket to the moon or mars.
good thing they are magnesium alloys because i dont really want my bike to explode on a hot day
I take the halfway-burned frame. Thank you!
I like how this channel is slowly turning into a chemistry channel....😅
Thanks to Dr Oliver Bridgewood...😅😅😅
Aw yeah. More videos with Ollie taking us to downtown Nerdville. I love it! I really enjoy the videos that dive deeper into scientific aspects and Dr. Ollie Bridgewood is clearly not only super qualified to do so but also funny enough to make it entertaining. Keep 'em coming please! :)
Ollie nerding out a bit in this video just makes me happy somehow.
It clearly makes him pretty happy too
7:20 i think the plant is lucky to not have chloroform in it…
haha! you know what i meant! 🤦♂️ chlorophyll ***
@@GCNuser123 good job with this video, Ollie. Charming as usual
Unless it's one of those creepy plants 😅
American Classic used to produce magnesium bike rims, among the lightest rims ever produced. The corrosion issue didn't suit rim brakes but, disc brake rims avoid that issue. I hope someone starts producing magnesium rims again soon.
A low section, magnesium clincher rim weighed 290 grams, that's 100-200 grams lighter than the average alloy rim.
Magnesium is used in motorcycles. They use it for parts and covers as well as wheels. At least they did. I've not followed motorcycling for a few years now but I don't think it's changed.
I broke every American classic hub I ever owned. Don’t know why 🤷🏼♂️. Same guy built my wheels for 20 years. 🖖🏼
@@phillippitts6294 They only make tires now apparently
@@onehourmusicbc thanks. I had a friend who was a rep for them in the mid 80s ? Maybe a couple years later.
@@phillippitts6294 What part(s) of the hub did you break? I'm still riding a front hub that I've had from the early 90's. Seems fine with very smooth bearings and a retro look. It's 28 holes laced to a Mavic rim. I don't have the rear any more since it was 126 mm spacing and used a 7 speed freewheel, and I don't have any use for that any more. But it was good for a long time as far as I could tell.
I was an active photographer and back then majority of the dslr body is made from magnesium alloy. Tough and lightweight. Was thinking before why not use this same metal on bikes and just learned today that magnesium bikes existed before. Interesting. Thanks GCN!
It still is used in most mid range and pro level cameras. That it’s now used in bike frames is really cool.
Because it's chemically reactive? Fragile? Subject to corrosion? Flammable?
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 Did you even watch the video?
As a car enthusiast I can add that magnesium alloys were also used in 60s/70s top level motorsport. Magnesium wheels were rather common in the scene at some point, and some race cars even had magnesium alloy tubeframes. They were abandoned due to fire hazards, but that's obviously much less of a concern in bicycle riding, so it makes sense to be used there. So I guess the only reason to pick titanium over magnesium is corrosiveness?
top end drywall stilts are also magnesium alloy
I’ve had many bikes , they have been made of aluminium, steel, titanium, magnesium and carbon
The only bike frame I’ve ever had snap was --- magnesium 🙄🙄
magnesium rims for cars were also known for snapping
Did it have the fancy coating Ollie mentioned?
Just curious - where did it snap? At a weld or in a tube somewhere.
@@subtropicalken1362 I don't think any frame will just snap in the middle of a tube due to how leverage works.
@@argh1989 I would certainly think it unlikely but “snapped” with no other info leaves a lot of room for speculation. That’s why I asked. A notch on a tube from an accident or mishandling could lead to a stress concentration that could propagate to failure. Murphy’s law. 🤷♂️
Ollie stick to Chemistry bud! Damping and stiffness are two completely different things. Low Modulus materials are just less stiff and will vibrate at a lower resonance with larger amplitude. This isn't damping. Most metals only have about 0.1% max molecular damping.
Yeah he is missing the point, metal springs need to be dampen by oil circulating "shocks" to absorb energy.
wanted to say the same. Great video, but the last bit is just wrong in so many ways
By definition, lowering vibration resonance is dampening. Calm down.
wow.. here's me thinking I couldn't actually care less about the vibrational dampenning of a frames material.. but here we are.. You proved me wrong.. congratulations.
@@charlesgatine7045 dweeb.
When biking my current bike I actually looked at magnesium. Went with carbon mainly because I hadn't had a carbon bike yet and was itching to finally have a carbon one. And because the selection of magnesium bikes is stilly very narrow, mainly Vaast Bikes, and so far they're mostly US-only.
Maybe when I buy my next bike in x years there will be more magnesium bikes available, would be cool.
they are counting on more guys who have an itch simply to own something new, unnecessary, but gotta have. best of luck.
How are you finding the carbon bike?
Vaast has also been majorly out of stock any time I've peeked, at least for the frames I'd be mildly interested in.
Also kind of annoyed there's none with cable stop/shifter bosses on the downtube, the lack of options is a problem.
FYI, Had a customer bring a magnesium frame in that he had bent the rear triangle on, while backing up in his garage on a rear rack, at first I thought it would be like Aluminum, unable to cold set, Leonard Zinn of VeloNews told me it can be done just like a steel frame. With a little effort it we realigned it. (Paketa bike)
I think gcn just messed up chlorophyll to chloroform
Thought I heard that too
yep. i actually did a second take where i corrected myself, but it got mixed in the edit! doh!
I know that Pinarello made a Magnesium bike back in the early 2000's. I remember reading about it in Bicycling magazine. I would have liked to have had the chance to test ride it. If I had the money, I would love to buy a Magnesium bike, so long as it's rim brake, and a threaded bottom bracket. Unfortunately they are still very difficult to find. Thank you.
Oscar Pereiro won the 2006 Tour de France on a Magnesium Pinarello Dogma. (Yes I'm aware Landis was first on the road, but he got DQ for doping,)
I actually have one of those, made in 2005 if I’m correct
I own one! I'm not sure I even knew what I was getting, really. It's the AK61. I just a regular rider, but it feels great, does everything I want from a road bike, and for the $1000 I paid for it all set up and ready to roll with campagnolo kit it's a keeper. I think about all the fancy stuff (electronic shifting and disc brakes, etc.) but once I'm riding all that disappears. It's a bit heavier than carbon and for a few years that got in my head but … now it's out! Besides, it's about pleasure and exercise, not saving off seconds for me. Great bike.
How exactly did I get to the point in my life where I'm watching a youtube guy try to light his bike on fire? I guess there were a lot of bad decisions that led me here but at least I can say that Ollie didn't "drop" his bike when the pace got too hot.
Love my Vaast A1. Was not my 1st choice but in 2020 1st choices were not an option. So I didn't get the bike I wanted but I'm so glad I didn't.
I wonder what happens to the coating on the bottom bracket threads after installation?
If you use grease for mounting them (what should be done with all metal frames) it shouldn't be a problem, grease also protects from corrosion
If bare, corrosion will start. My hunch is standard installation procedure after threading the BB would be to coat the threaded area heavily with a thick grease or similar compound then install the races.
"Chlorophyll? More like Borophyll!"
Ollie's hairline is must see tv. Also, this video feels like GCN is going to start building and sell magnesium frames. Eurobike 2.0.
what’s up with my hairline?! 😬😂
@@GCNuser123 It's a foolproof way of determining victors and future champs. If everything is equal(skills, size, strength, experience, etc.), then a much fuller and glorious hairline would be the determining factor.
Would love to see Vaast put together a Mg alloy prototype bike that includes a frame, but also Mg rims, hubs, seat post and collar, handlebar, stem, fork, cranks and « fenders » as Ollie calls them. Then, have him ride this for 1000 km on all sorts of terrain like hill climbs, gravel, TT, in rain, snow and shine. Finally, do a follow up video on the bike. Curious to know if such a bike will be a Vaast improvement over existing bikes.
Yeah, unfortunately, magnesium didnt caught up. The last time ive seen one was from my friends dad in the early 90's. I remembered how surprise i was wgen i held it for the firt time. Its significantly lighter than the kids BMX that we had in that time
Genuinely love the high school science experiments mixed in! I remember seeing Si review a magnesium frame I think a few years ago. I haven't been due for a new bike yet but I hope I can get my hands on one of these frames when I do build a new bike!
Glad you enjoyed it!
But imagine how cool it would be riding a sodium metal bike that was totally lit! 🔥 (Pun intended!)
Please build a road version, rim brake, I’ll order one tomorrow!
Im still running a 2005 merida magnesium elite in blue/green with updated bits, still looks BOX FRESH too and i absolutely love the thing, never part with it
Bought myself a Vaast A/1 not long ago. It's a seriously good bike, and for a while the pricing on it was outright insane: I got my 1x11 Rival hydraulic build with Stans wheels and a carbon crankset (!) for just $1700. Not to mention, it was actually in stock and available for online ordering, which was a miracle in current times.
I would like to note something on the video: right around 10:30 you mention that magnesium, as a more compliant metal, can be softer and more flexible in a bike frame. You also mention that alloys can make up for this. Strictly speaking, this isn't really true; assuming the geometry of a given frame stays the same, how soft or flexible it is correlates directly with how compliant it is, and both correlate directly to the material's Young's modulus. (By geometry, I mean things like the tube profiles and shapes of the joints, not things like stack or reach or top tube length) You can't make this theoretical frame stiffer without also making it less compliant, and the only way to accomplish either is to alter the Young's modulus. Alloys in general cannot alter Young's modulus significantly compared to the base metal, so it's not correct to say that you can make a bike stiffer and less flexible while keeping the same compliance simply by using an alloy.
So, put in simpler terms, theoretically a frame made out of pure magnesium and an identical frame made of AE81 alloy will have practically identical stiffness and compliance characteristics. The alloy improves neither characteristic. However, the difference is that the pure magnesium frame will almost certainly be too weak to ride, and may fold under you as soon as you sit on it. (The same thing applies for pure aluminium vs aluminium alloy, pure iron vs steel, and pure titanium vs titanium alloy)
Instead, what you can and should do is alter the geometry of the tubes and joints outright. By, say, flattening out certain parts of a tube, or using different wall thicknesses on different sections of tube, you can change the flexibility of the frame on different axes. That's how the so-called "lateral stiffness and vertical compliance" is achieved in isotropic materials such as metals. (Carbon gives you more options with the orientation of the fibers.) Sometimes, these changes will require certain alloys to maintain the same strength or fatigue standards, but the benefits found for increasing stiffness while maintaining compliance are still a result of the tube and joint shapes, not in the alloy.
This is why hydroforming aluminum is such a common practice, and why tube butting is used on so many different metal bikes.
So, that is super interesting, but you didn't address the question of "Why"... Is it more expensive (if it's so abundant, then it shouldn't be), is it harder to weld? What's the scoop here. You've sold me on the concept but haven't explained why it hasn't gotten more widespread adoption.
The lightest or least dense metal that is a pure element is lithium, which has a density of 0.534 g/cm3. This makes lithium nearly half as dense as water, so if lithium was not so reactive, a chunk of the metal would float on water. Two other metallic elements are less dense than water.
Ollie is seriously the funniest and cutest presenter GCN has. I always love his videos
Ollie would go well on television
"cheaper than titanium" These Vaast frames seems to be pretty on par with some of the titanium offerings, and I haven't even found another company making magnesium bikes. where in ti there are lots of brands some definitely way more expensive than Vaasts offering, but some cost way less. Maybe the raw material is cheaper and more abundant in the earth but doesn't seem to relate to the price of the product.
Carbon fiber, aluminium and titanium were ridiculously expensive when they were first introduced, I'm willing to allow that the price will come down when Mg achieves the same level of prevalence.
@@galenkehler I don’t think they’ll sell magnesium bikes any cheaper . It’s all profit driven, it’s as much as someone is prepared to pay for them. Sales and marketing will be on one to achieve the maximum price that they can get from a buyer(s)
Check out Zinn custom in Colorado
@@galenkehler It won't. Aluminium is cheaper and more abundant in the supply chain, Carbon is better but more expensive. Magnesium bike frames really don't have a place in the market, much like titanium bikes don't really either, they are just niche products for the sake of it. You can make an argument for Steel touring bikes being repairable by any off the track shop, but even that is a bit tenuous given the alloys used in higher end ones.
This is exactly what it says it is, an Ad. If you want cheap and robust it is a Aluminium, and formally Steel, if you want top end performance, it is Carbon. If you want a fashion piece, maybe go with Magnesium, Titanium, Bamboo, or even wood.
Ehhh what? Vaast is selling their all road frameset for comparable prices to steel frames like those of All City or Velo Orange. Where are you seeing titanium frames for $1300 USD? That's either slave labor or very questionable "titanium".
You’re the best Ollie. I’m gonna try to fit this into one of my chemistry classes. I think my students will really enjoy it
I had a Kirk Precision back in the 90's with Dura Ace STI. Was an awesome bike, but kept cracking brake stays
I had Kirk Revolution (well I brought one) of these started off with a purple frame plus replacement then a black frame. Snapped a few parts of the frames.
Rode my Kirk last week
I worked at Kirk Precision for 4 years, until it folded in 93. It was a roller coaster
I had one as well. It was like riding a wet noodle. Very flexible material.
I really hope magnesium becomes common to produce because carbon bike prices have gone stupid so I can no longer afford to upgrade compared to a few years ago. My trusty old alloy steed will continue to serve me until then….
Sikorsky made a twin rotor helicopter back in the 50's or 60's the whole airframe was made of Magnesium , once it caught fire it couldn't be put out they had to let in burn even covered in foam. I worked on F4-D models and we got to see all the cool training disaster films. They showed what happens when you mix oil and liquid O2, BANG!
A brief history of magnesium bike frames would have been good. Why are so few made now?
So glad to hear that polar bears approve of our cycling choices...😂😂😂
I was imagining how they wondered what would be our material of choice to make bikes, while they were out fishing for their next meal...
Thank you for always putting the fact in relation to other materials like alloy steel titanium and carbon.
the corrosion part would keep me from buying it, i'd rather get steel or ti
Congratulations Ollie on your doctorate! Glad to see you're still just as funny and awesome sauce!
Wait he’s actually a doctor of material sciences?
Chemistry
@@patricescattolin43 that makes more sense.
Not sure playing with fire while wearing rubber gloves is wise.
Amazingly this video kept my science obsessed child fascinated for the whole thing (think it was the flames and the crystals not the bike frame though) Science is cool. 🤓 We love you too Dr B! Bye