Do magnesium sliders on my mtb forks count? Which brings me to a downside of using steel bolts in magnesium holes: it can be easy to strip the threads in the hole if you aren't careful enough - I know this from experience!
I purchased a Vaast A/1 frame and built it up with XTR drivetrain, Paul Klamper calipers, and Thomson hardware. I really can't tell the ride difference compared to carbon, but being the bike nerd I am, I just had to get one. I haven't crashed it yet, but I did drop a pedal wrench on it without any issues! The price (about USD $1200) made it a good value.
In the US there was a mtb company that made magnesium frames - lodestar. They rode like the alu frames of the time but were not made well. Cracked too often
LOVE deeper dives into the materials & chemistry of our cycling lives. Strong believer that this specific educational path leads directly to environmental impact awareness. Keep ‘em coming!
Aw yeah. More videos with Ollie taking us to downtown Nerdville. I love it! I really enjoy the videos that dive deeper into scientific aspects and Dr. Ollie Bridgewood is clearly not only super qualified to do so but also funny enough to make it entertaining. Keep 'em coming please! :)
I was an active photographer and back then majority of the dslr body is made from magnesium alloy. Tough and lightweight. Was thinking before why not use this same metal on bikes and just learned today that magnesium bikes existed before. Interesting. Thanks GCN!
As a car enthusiast I can add that magnesium alloys were also used in 60s/70s top level motorsport. Magnesium wheels were rather common in the scene at some point, and some race cars even had magnesium alloy tubeframes. They were abandoned due to fire hazards, but that's obviously much less of a concern in bicycle riding, so it makes sense to be used there. So I guess the only reason to pick titanium over magnesium is corrosiveness?
American Classic used to produce magnesium bike rims, among the lightest rims ever produced. The corrosion issue didn't suit rim brakes but, disc brake rims avoid that issue. I hope someone starts producing magnesium rims again soon. A low section, magnesium clincher rim weighed 290 grams, that's 100-200 grams lighter than the average alloy rim.
Magnesium is used in motorcycles. They use it for parts and covers as well as wheels. At least they did. I've not followed motorcycling for a few years now but I don't think it's changed.
@@phillippitts6294 What part(s) of the hub did you break? I'm still riding a front hub that I've had from the early 90's. Seems fine with very smooth bearings and a retro look. It's 28 holes laced to a Mavic rim. I don't have the rear any more since it was 126 mm spacing and used a 7 speed freewheel, and I don't have any use for that any more. But it was good for a long time as far as I could tell.
FYI, Had a customer bring a magnesium frame in that he had bent the rear triangle on, while backing up in his garage on a rear rack, at first I thought it would be like Aluminum, unable to cold set, Leonard Zinn of VeloNews told me it can be done just like a steel frame. With a little effort it we realigned it. (Paketa bike)
We have 2 Vaast magnesium frames and the are AWESOME. I’ve had/got every frame type and never had anything ride so smooth. It’s otherworldly. Incredible material for gravel bikes where you ride surfaces with lots of chatter.
Genuinely love the high school science experiments mixed in! I remember seeing Si review a magnesium frame I think a few years ago. I haven't been due for a new bike yet but I hope I can get my hands on one of these frames when I do build a new bike!
I have the Vaast A1 and LOVE it! It rides and feels a lot like a nice carbon frame. It’s super responsive and definitely very compliant. I’ve only got a couple hundred miles on mine but I’ll post more details here when I’ve got some serious miles on it. I test drove one here in New York and loved it so much that I traded it in for my Cannondale Topstone 5. The A1 is about $1000 less expensive than the Topstone 5 and honestly I much prefer it.
I'm currently thinking of getting one as my first gravel Bike. Is the A/1 good on road as well? I was thinking of getting the 2x GRX but for the price I think the GRX400 isn t the best I could get...any input or recommendations on that for a beginner like me?
Bought myself a Vaast A/1 not long ago. It's a seriously good bike, and for a while the pricing on it was outright insane: I got my 1x11 Rival hydraulic build with Stans wheels and a carbon crankset (!) for just $1700. Not to mention, it was actually in stock and available for online ordering, which was a miracle in current times. I would like to note something on the video: right around 10:30 you mention that magnesium, as a more compliant metal, can be softer and more flexible in a bike frame. You also mention that alloys can make up for this. Strictly speaking, this isn't really true; assuming the geometry of a given frame stays the same, how soft or flexible it is correlates directly with how compliant it is, and both correlate directly to the material's Young's modulus. (By geometry, I mean things like the tube profiles and shapes of the joints, not things like stack or reach or top tube length) You can't make this theoretical frame stiffer without also making it less compliant, and the only way to accomplish either is to alter the Young's modulus. Alloys in general cannot alter Young's modulus significantly compared to the base metal, so it's not correct to say that you can make a bike stiffer and less flexible while keeping the same compliance simply by using an alloy. So, put in simpler terms, theoretically a frame made out of pure magnesium and an identical frame made of AE81 alloy will have practically identical stiffness and compliance characteristics. The alloy improves neither characteristic. However, the difference is that the pure magnesium frame will almost certainly be too weak to ride, and may fold under you as soon as you sit on it. (The same thing applies for pure aluminium vs aluminium alloy, pure iron vs steel, and pure titanium vs titanium alloy) Instead, what you can and should do is alter the geometry of the tubes and joints outright. By, say, flattening out certain parts of a tube, or using different wall thicknesses on different sections of tube, you can change the flexibility of the frame on different axes. That's how the so-called "lateral stiffness and vertical compliance" is achieved in isotropic materials such as metals. (Carbon gives you more options with the orientation of the fibers.) Sometimes, these changes will require certain alloys to maintain the same strength or fatigue standards, but the benefits found for increasing stiffness while maintaining compliance are still a result of the tube and joint shapes, not in the alloy. This is why hydroforming aluminum is such a common practice, and why tube butting is used on so many different metal bikes.
Would love to see Vaast put together a Mg alloy prototype bike that includes a frame, but also Mg rims, hubs, seat post and collar, handlebar, stem, fork, cranks and « fenders » as Ollie calls them. Then, have him ride this for 1000 km on all sorts of terrain like hill climbs, gravel, TT, in rain, snow and shine. Finally, do a follow up video on the bike. Curious to know if such a bike will be a Vaast improvement over existing bikes.
When biking my current bike I actually looked at magnesium. Went with carbon mainly because I hadn't had a carbon bike yet and was itching to finally have a carbon one. And because the selection of magnesium bikes is stilly very narrow, mainly Vaast Bikes, and so far they're mostly US-only. Maybe when I buy my next bike in x years there will be more magnesium bikes available, would be cool.
Vaast has also been majorly out of stock any time I've peeked, at least for the frames I'd be mildly interested in. Also kind of annoyed there's none with cable stop/shifter bosses on the downtube, the lack of options is a problem.
Sikorsky made a twin rotor helicopter back in the 50's or 60's the whole airframe was made of Magnesium , once it caught fire it couldn't be put out they had to let in burn even covered in foam. I worked on F4-D models and we got to see all the cool training disaster films. They showed what happens when you mix oil and liquid O2, BANG!
A Bicycling magazine article from back in the 80's was about the future of frame materials. It basically predicted that future bikes would be made from materials from declassified military skunk works projects, composites such as lithium metal matrix etc. Like 14 speed prediction from back then, look at how long it has taken us to reach that point.
Somewhat correct. Skunk works gave us Ti alloys which eventually found its way into bicycle, same with metal matrix composites, carbon composites, etc. Also, Allite makes a Mg alloy using declassified recipes
Been riding my VAAST A/1 since mid 2020! It's such a badass bike. This vid was hilarious - thanks for highlighting such a great new bike company and these awesome bikes!
Fellow chemist here with a cycling addiction loving the materials science pieces - carbon, magnesium... fantastic series to educate everyone on the particulars of frame materials!
Cool. Got a bike made from Mg alloy - a Scott Strike G-Zero MTB. Okay, its only the rear triangle that's Mg and the rest of the frame is Carbon, but still, it is great and good to see more bikes being made of the stuff
These Science shows are fabulous, one point I would raise though is the use of Beryllium. Being an old person with a long memory, I recall in the mid 90s one frame builder produced a single beryllium alloy frame. It cost somewhere in the region of tens of thousands of dollars and was a complete one off, due to the difficulties of working with the material. I have no idea if this frame was ever ridden, I suspect it went into some rich person's personal museum.
I like these educational videos where you tell not just how to get better performace but, the insight into the material engineering and manufacturing process is quite edifying. Should be good for learning about sustainability / environmental impact :) PS: Those gloves look very safe! :D
Kudos to you, I'm a mtber and a mech tech and I applaud your content. Magnesium alloys have been about for years now and as you stated carbon fibre is not really environmentally friendly - if someone could inform the University's who are plodding down this route anyway I digress I still like my titanium a bike frame for life.
titanium will be unattainable for some time to come with the Russian sources now under Putins business model. these products are made for personalities, not for 'purposes'. personality pins for a hat.
The lightest or least dense metal that is a pure element is lithium, which has a density of 0.534 g/cm3. This makes lithium nearly half as dense as water, so if lithium was not so reactive, a chunk of the metal would float on water. Two other metallic elements are less dense than water.
Im still running a 2005 merida magnesium elite in blue/green with updated bits, still looks BOX FRESH too and i absolutely love the thing, never part with it
I know that Pinarello made a Magnesium bike back in the early 2000's. I remember reading about it in Bicycling magazine. I would have liked to have had the chance to test ride it. If I had the money, I would love to buy a Magnesium bike, so long as it's rim brake, and a threaded bottom bracket. Unfortunately they are still very difficult to find. Thank you.
I own one! I'm not sure I even knew what I was getting, really. It's the AK61. I just a regular rider, but it feels great, does everything I want from a road bike, and for the $1000 I paid for it all set up and ready to roll with campagnolo kit it's a keeper. I think about all the fancy stuff (electronic shifting and disc brakes, etc.) but once I'm riding all that disappears. It's a bit heavier than carbon and for a few years that got in my head but … now it's out! Besides, it's about pleasure and exercise, not saving off seconds for me. Great bike.
would say magnesium is a competitor to aluminum. not steel, titanium or carbon. so an in depth compairison between a comparable frame from Al and Mg would be interesting for the consumer
I wouldn't say they are competitor materials so much as a material is a tool to be used. Each have their place and none is the perfect material for all bikes.
@@cjohnson3836 l mean that they are much closer purchase decision wise. if u want titantium u get titanium. u want carbon u get carbon. but it magnesium gets more widely used the decision could be Al or Mg? while with the other materials it's a decision between frames and not material let's be real
I’ve got about 300 miles into my Vaast A1 and I would definitely not compare it to aluminum or steel. It feels a lot like carbon. Almost impossible to distinguish the ride quality between this bike and a carbon bike. I was able to test drive the bike side-by-side with my Cannondale Topstone five and I ended up trading in the Cannondale towards the A1.
With regards to precision enginnering, it opens the question if is it also precision manufacturable. With thermal expansion higher and conductivity lower than aluminium, magnesium calls for greater disturbances in weld areas. And no, vibration damping is not about the magnitude of Young modulus. It is about difference in Young modulus at compression and decompression. What VAAST are actually saying here, the frame acts like a softer spring compared to an aluminium or titanium with same tubing. It smoothens the vibration by shifting their frequency, but it doesn't affect the corresponding energy. Yes, "basically ... it's more compliant", but frame stiffness has always been more influenced by tube thickness and dimensioning rather than the chosen material.
Amazingly this video kept my science obsessed child fascinated for the whole thing (think it was the flames and the crystals not the bike frame though) Science is cool. 🤓 We love you too Dr B! Bye
Ollie stick to Chemistry bud! Damping and stiffness are two completely different things. Low Modulus materials are just less stiff and will vibrate at a lower resonance with larger amplitude. This isn't damping. Most metals only have about 0.1% max molecular damping.
wow.. here's me thinking I couldn't actually care less about the vibrational dampenning of a frames material.. but here we are.. You proved me wrong.. congratulations.
Always wondered why Mg reamins under-used (exploited). It's a major plyer in suspension forks yet, since Kirk, I've never seen an Mg alloy frame. kinesium? yes. Time to turn backs on landfill CF and get to know Mg Alloy. VAAST, keep up the good work.
So glad to hear that polar bears approve of our cycling choices...😂😂😂 I was imagining how they wondered what would be our material of choice to make bikes, while they were out fishing for their next meal...
"Chlorophyll? More like Borophyll!" Ollie's hairline is must see tv. Also, this video feels like GCN is going to start building and sell magnesium frames. Eurobike 2.0.
@@GCNuser123 It's a foolproof way of determining victors and future champs. If everything is equal(skills, size, strength, experience, etc.), then a much fuller and glorious hairline would be the determining factor.
I nominate Ollie for a Nobel Prize in Science Educational Humour!! This was brilliant, entertaining and educational. Love Ollie videos!!! Keep up the great work.
I considered Mg frame and bits in the past, turned out the problem with frames is they had little fatigue resistance, ie. they're more likely to crack than Aluminium. Pretty kool material though.
@@marceljanssens5935 I think it depends on how much reserves the frame has. Carbon is very strong in fiber direction, and as a fiber material it has not the classic fatigue of a metal. However, fiber materials can delaminate if they are under stress, and the resin can age and is not UV resistant like a metal. If a frame is built with as little material as possible it will fail over time, independently which material is used
If bare, corrosion will start. My hunch is standard installation procedure after threading the BB would be to coat the threaded area heavily with a thick grease or similar compound then install the races.
Excellent presentation.. sweet.. simple and nailed it securely. Magnesium certainly has come of age and hopefully become a reasonably affordable and easy to find choice. One kilogram not bad and the ceramic coating included all the better. Its about time. Is this going to hold up in salty coastal and winter roads better than steal ( steal holds up okay in the rust belt but you better use some frame saver and stick to the heavier gauge stuff... a lot of mantainance plus the bike will be heavy. Those coastal bikes should also get the frame saver treatment as they can rust from the inside out and sneak up on you with a bunch of dead tubes that thud and don't ping when you flick it with the nail on your middle finger) and aluminum (my experience aluminum isn't that great ... I've had to call a few costumers and let them know that their frame had some holes under that blistering paint near the bottom bracket and head tube ... carbon fiber just foolish) if so then there is an excellent material for the four seasons everything bicycle. Looking forward to some more scientifically detailed expansion of this topic... more chemistry, material science and engineering.
I had Kirk Revolution (well I brought one) of these started off with a purple frame plus replacement then a black frame. Snapped a few parts of the frames.
I'm not a fan of "lumpy" welds. I have a feeling that because of it's low ignition temp, it wouldn't be easy to grind the welds. (unless it was done without Oxygen being present)
Yeah, I think they're terribly ugly but you could probably smooth it out with a filler if it really mattered to you. It'd add a few grams but a few grams isn't going to make a difference for most of us.
@@MarioXcore1 If I'm spending the money they ask for bike frames these days, I want it to be more than just functional. A purely functional bike can be had for a fraction of the prices they charge.
incredible methal, i use to weld magnesium some decades ago, when cars use magnedium wheels. Today aluminium alloys are a better option for car wheels. For road bike i think its a nice option.
"cheaper than titanium" These Vaast frames seems to be pretty on par with some of the titanium offerings, and I haven't even found another company making magnesium bikes. where in ti there are lots of brands some definitely way more expensive than Vaasts offering, but some cost way less. Maybe the raw material is cheaper and more abundant in the earth but doesn't seem to relate to the price of the product.
Carbon fiber, aluminium and titanium were ridiculously expensive when they were first introduced, I'm willing to allow that the price will come down when Mg achieves the same level of prevalence.
@@galenkehler I don’t think they’ll sell magnesium bikes any cheaper . It’s all profit driven, it’s as much as someone is prepared to pay for them. Sales and marketing will be on one to achieve the maximum price that they can get from a buyer(s)
@@galenkehler It won't. Aluminium is cheaper and more abundant in the supply chain, Carbon is better but more expensive. Magnesium bike frames really don't have a place in the market, much like titanium bikes don't really either, they are just niche products for the sake of it. You can make an argument for Steel touring bikes being repairable by any off the track shop, but even that is a bit tenuous given the alloys used in higher end ones. This is exactly what it says it is, an Ad. If you want cheap and robust it is a Aluminium, and formally Steel, if you want top end performance, it is Carbon. If you want a fashion piece, maybe go with Magnesium, Titanium, Bamboo, or even wood.
Ehhh what? Vaast is selling their all road frameset for comparable prices to steel frames like those of All City or Velo Orange. Where are you seeing titanium frames for $1300 USD? That's either slave labor or very questionable "titanium".
Whatever savings you get from choosing a magnesium bike will be for the expensive coating and painting? I don't know I talk for me but most riders are concerned with costs along with weight. Its still a shame that AL and MAG bikes cannot be ridden bare like Ti bikes. One of the things I like about a Ti bike is that it doesn't need colour and the natural Titanium looks so amazing.
Mag alloys can catch fire when using power tools like angle grinders on them or when welding or machining them. The swarf from machining is also very flammable and can be ignited by sparks. The manufacturers have to use an inert atmosphere to eliminate oxygen while machining or welding. Source: I worked at a company where we had a magnesium alloy fire in our machine shop because the gas bottle ran out! It makes a blindingly white flame when it's on fire, like an arc welder. A cigarette lighter doesn't produce enough heat to be a problem, and the ceramic coatings are designed to prevent combustion and corrosion. If un-coated and you put a sweaty hand on a piece, it will turn dark grey or black as it reacts. In terms of energy to produce new material from ore, it's worse than aluminium, because it's more reactive and harder to separate from the oxide. For recycling and reshaping, it takes the least amount of energy compared to the other useful engineering alloys, because it is softer. There's a lot more aluminium and steel in circulation, so there's more infrastructure in place for recycling those.
So … this makes me feel better about my Pinarello AK61 Dogma magnesium frame bike which I got for about $1000 with Camp. equipment. And which makes me very happy. I've always wondered why they did keep making them.
I think this is the "it" bike for me. I have a high end carbon bike, a high end custom stainless steel bike, a high end vintage steel bike and a high end aluminum bike. But, it looks like magnesium ticks off of the boxes for my next bike, an all-road specific bike. I know I'm done with carbon. Ever since I've gotten back on metal bikes, I've dropped more "mental weight" in not having to worry about working with my bike (riding rough roads, clamping it into the stand, transport, crashes, etc...), however, I'm pretty sure I won't go back to aluminum. I've ridden titanium, but prefer the ride or steel. You can't expect any one bike to rule all facets of cycling (comfort, durability, weight, performance, etc...), but it looks like magnesium prioritizes those traits I need most; Comfort & durability + weight savings while still not feeling like a noodle. I love the feeling of being able to hammer down an imperfect road without worrying about my steel rig...again, loss of mental weight. If I can shed a couple of pounds and keep it in the 15-16 range while still offering a stiff, but NOT bone rattling ride "and" be on a metal bike? That's the bike I want.
Also, it seems there's another imprecision, bare aluminium will not "rust away" like iron carbon alloys as you seem to imply because the oxyde layer of aluminum has enough adherence, impermeability and mechanical toughness to protect the metal beneath, except in more extreme environment like acids below pH4. Whereas, as it is said in the video, magnesium alloys will degrade by corrosion as easily as iron base alloys exposed to ambient air and a bit of moisture. So basically those frame could be one dent in the paint+coating away from rusting like steel bikes do.
Have you ever used a Magnesium frame?
does 5xxx alloy count?
Do magnesium sliders on my mtb forks count?
Which brings me to a downside of using steel bolts in magnesium holes: it can be easy to strip the threads in the hole if you aren't careful enough - I know this from experience!
I purchased a Vaast A/1 frame and built it up with XTR drivetrain, Paul Klamper calipers, and Thomson hardware. I really can't tell the ride difference compared to carbon, but being the bike nerd I am, I just had to get one. I haven't crashed it yet, but I did drop a pedal wrench on it without any issues! The price (about USD $1200) made it a good value.
I’ve used a magnesium mountain bike for 5 years with no issues whatsoever. It was light and I loved it!
In the US there was a mtb company that made magnesium frames - lodestar. They rode like the alu frames of the time but were not made well. Cracked too often
Good description of Young's modulus in there. I'm not saying it was correct but it was entertaining.
The 5 year old says so!
Bloody aerospace engineers
Takes time out from humping hairdresser to say stuff.
(also, judging by current hairstyle I suspect you're not pumping correctly)
Young's Modulus aged 5.
He did say he wanted to explain it in a way that all would understand - so he left out the correct bits
I knew if I kept my 20 year old magnesium alloy bike long enough it would come back into fashion!
Paketa??
I have an almost brand new Kirk revolution MTB. 25 years old, original tires, inner tube and grips!
*lol thats jokes what kind of bike bro?*
@@YukiTsunoda7 You'd be too young to remember them, real class takes time to apperciate.
The video didn't address this: why did it ever go out of fashion?!
LOVE deeper dives into the materials & chemistry of our cycling lives. Strong believer that this specific educational path leads directly to environmental impact awareness. Keep ‘em coming!
Glad you found it interesting
You could potentially have lots of material / parts to cover in this way. Very interesting. We want more of this!
NERD!!.
true....it was actually kinda informational..but still...the fact remains.........................lol.
Ollie nerding out a bit in this video just makes me happy somehow.
It clearly makes him pretty happy too
Aw yeah. More videos with Ollie taking us to downtown Nerdville. I love it! I really enjoy the videos that dive deeper into scientific aspects and Dr. Ollie Bridgewood is clearly not only super qualified to do so but also funny enough to make it entertaining. Keep 'em coming please! :)
I was an active photographer and back then majority of the dslr body is made from magnesium alloy. Tough and lightweight. Was thinking before why not use this same metal on bikes and just learned today that magnesium bikes existed before. Interesting. Thanks GCN!
It still is used in most mid range and pro level cameras. That it’s now used in bike frames is really cool.
Because it's chemically reactive? Fragile? Subject to corrosion? Flammable?
@@zygmuntthecacaokakistocrat6589 Did you even watch the video?
As a car enthusiast I can add that magnesium alloys were also used in 60s/70s top level motorsport. Magnesium wheels were rather common in the scene at some point, and some race cars even had magnesium alloy tubeframes. They were abandoned due to fire hazards, but that's obviously much less of a concern in bicycle riding, so it makes sense to be used there. So I guess the only reason to pick titanium over magnesium is corrosiveness?
top end drywall stilts are also magnesium alloy
American Classic used to produce magnesium bike rims, among the lightest rims ever produced. The corrosion issue didn't suit rim brakes but, disc brake rims avoid that issue. I hope someone starts producing magnesium rims again soon.
A low section, magnesium clincher rim weighed 290 grams, that's 100-200 grams lighter than the average alloy rim.
Magnesium is used in motorcycles. They use it for parts and covers as well as wheels. At least they did. I've not followed motorcycling for a few years now but I don't think it's changed.
I broke every American classic hub I ever owned. Don’t know why 🤷🏼♂️. Same guy built my wheels for 20 years. 🖖🏼
@@phillippitts6294 They only make tires now apparently
@@onehourmusicbc thanks. I had a friend who was a rep for them in the mid 80s ? Maybe a couple years later.
@@phillippitts6294 What part(s) of the hub did you break? I'm still riding a front hub that I've had from the early 90's. Seems fine with very smooth bearings and a retro look. It's 28 holes laced to a Mavic rim. I don't have the rear any more since it was 126 mm spacing and used a 7 speed freewheel, and I don't have any use for that any more. But it was good for a long time as far as I could tell.
I love my VAAST! And I put it through the paces, riding on technical MTB trails.
Love my Vaast A1. Was not my 1st choice but in 2020 1st choices were not an option. So I didn't get the bike I wanted but I'm so glad I didn't.
I like how this channel is slowly turning into a chemistry channel....😅
Thanks to Dr Oliver Bridgewood...😅😅😅
FYI, Had a customer bring a magnesium frame in that he had bent the rear triangle on, while backing up in his garage on a rear rack, at first I thought it would be like Aluminum, unable to cold set, Leonard Zinn of VeloNews told me it can be done just like a steel frame. With a little effort it we realigned it. (Paketa bike)
We have 2 Vaast magnesium frames and the are AWESOME. I’ve had/got every frame type and never had anything ride so smooth. It’s otherworldly. Incredible material for gravel bikes where you ride surfaces with lots of chatter.
Being a Chemistry teacher, I LOVE THIS VIDEO, I am so going to use it in my lessons, I love IT
You’re the best Ollie. I’m gonna try to fit this into one of my chemistry classes. I think my students will really enjoy it
Ollie is seriously the funniest and cutest presenter GCN has. I always love his videos
Ollie would go well on television
Thank you for always putting the fact in relation to other materials like alloy steel titanium and carbon.
Genuinely love the high school science experiments mixed in! I remember seeing Si review a magnesium frame I think a few years ago. I haven't been due for a new bike yet but I hope I can get my hands on one of these frames when I do build a new bike!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have the Vaast A1 and LOVE it! It rides and feels a lot like a nice carbon frame. It’s super responsive and definitely very compliant. I’ve only got a couple hundred miles on mine but I’ll post more details here when I’ve got some serious miles on it.
I test drove one here in New York and loved it so much that I traded it in for my Cannondale Topstone 5. The A1 is about $1000 less expensive than the Topstone 5 and honestly I much prefer it.
I'm currently thinking of getting one as my first gravel Bike. Is the A/1 good on road as well? I was thinking of getting the 2x GRX but for the price I think the GRX400 isn t the best I could get...any input or recommendations on that for a beginner like me?
Bought myself a Vaast A/1 not long ago. It's a seriously good bike, and for a while the pricing on it was outright insane: I got my 1x11 Rival hydraulic build with Stans wheels and a carbon crankset (!) for just $1700. Not to mention, it was actually in stock and available for online ordering, which was a miracle in current times.
I would like to note something on the video: right around 10:30 you mention that magnesium, as a more compliant metal, can be softer and more flexible in a bike frame. You also mention that alloys can make up for this. Strictly speaking, this isn't really true; assuming the geometry of a given frame stays the same, how soft or flexible it is correlates directly with how compliant it is, and both correlate directly to the material's Young's modulus. (By geometry, I mean things like the tube profiles and shapes of the joints, not things like stack or reach or top tube length) You can't make this theoretical frame stiffer without also making it less compliant, and the only way to accomplish either is to alter the Young's modulus. Alloys in general cannot alter Young's modulus significantly compared to the base metal, so it's not correct to say that you can make a bike stiffer and less flexible while keeping the same compliance simply by using an alloy.
So, put in simpler terms, theoretically a frame made out of pure magnesium and an identical frame made of AE81 alloy will have practically identical stiffness and compliance characteristics. The alloy improves neither characteristic. However, the difference is that the pure magnesium frame will almost certainly be too weak to ride, and may fold under you as soon as you sit on it. (The same thing applies for pure aluminium vs aluminium alloy, pure iron vs steel, and pure titanium vs titanium alloy)
Instead, what you can and should do is alter the geometry of the tubes and joints outright. By, say, flattening out certain parts of a tube, or using different wall thicknesses on different sections of tube, you can change the flexibility of the frame on different axes. That's how the so-called "lateral stiffness and vertical compliance" is achieved in isotropic materials such as metals. (Carbon gives you more options with the orientation of the fibers.) Sometimes, these changes will require certain alloys to maintain the same strength or fatigue standards, but the benefits found for increasing stiffness while maintaining compliance are still a result of the tube and joint shapes, not in the alloy.
This is why hydroforming aluminum is such a common practice, and why tube butting is used on so many different metal bikes.
Would love to see Vaast put together a Mg alloy prototype bike that includes a frame, but also Mg rims, hubs, seat post and collar, handlebar, stem, fork, cranks and « fenders » as Ollie calls them. Then, have him ride this for 1000 km on all sorts of terrain like hill climbs, gravel, TT, in rain, snow and shine. Finally, do a follow up video on the bike. Curious to know if such a bike will be a Vaast improvement over existing bikes.
Love that every time Olli says something he deems "academic" he puts his glasses on....cracks me up
2 of my gravel bike builds are early 2000s Magnesium hardtail frames. Just love the ride quality
When biking my current bike I actually looked at magnesium. Went with carbon mainly because I hadn't had a carbon bike yet and was itching to finally have a carbon one. And because the selection of magnesium bikes is stilly very narrow, mainly Vaast Bikes, and so far they're mostly US-only.
Maybe when I buy my next bike in x years there will be more magnesium bikes available, would be cool.
they are counting on more guys who have an itch simply to own something new, unnecessary, but gotta have. best of luck.
How are you finding the carbon bike?
Vaast has also been majorly out of stock any time I've peeked, at least for the frames I'd be mildly interested in.
Also kind of annoyed there's none with cable stop/shifter bosses on the downtube, the lack of options is a problem.
Sikorsky made a twin rotor helicopter back in the 50's or 60's the whole airframe was made of Magnesium , once it caught fire it couldn't be put out they had to let in burn even covered in foam. I worked on F4-D models and we got to see all the cool training disaster films. They showed what happens when you mix oil and liquid O2, BANG!
A Bicycling magazine article from back in the 80's was about the future of frame materials. It basically predicted that future bikes would be made from materials from declassified military skunk works projects, composites such as lithium metal matrix etc. Like 14 speed prediction from back then, look at how long it has taken us to reach that point.
Somewhat correct.
Skunk works gave us Ti alloys which eventually found its way into bicycle, same with metal matrix composites, carbon composites, etc. Also, Allite makes a Mg alloy using declassified recipes
Been riding my VAAST A/1 since mid 2020! It's such a badass bike. This vid was hilarious - thanks for highlighting such a great new bike company and these awesome bikes!
One of the most informative, interesting, and fun videos I've watched in a while.
Fellow chemist here with a cycling addiction loving the materials science pieces - carbon, magnesium... fantastic series to educate everyone on the particulars of frame materials!
Cool. Got a bike made from Mg alloy - a Scott Strike G-Zero MTB. Okay, its only the rear triangle that's Mg and the rest of the frame is Carbon, but still, it is great and good to see more bikes being made of the stuff
These Science shows are fabulous, one point I would raise though is the use of Beryllium. Being an old person with a long memory, I recall in the mid 90s one frame builder produced a single beryllium alloy frame. It cost somewhere in the region of tens of thousands of dollars and was a complete one off, due to the difficulties of working with the material. I have no idea if this frame was ever ridden, I suspect it went into some rich person's personal museum.
This is one of my fave videos this year on GCN!
Congratulations Ollie on your doctorate! Glad to see you're still just as funny and awesome sauce!
Wait he’s actually a doctor of material sciences?
Chemistry
@@patricescattolin43 that makes more sense.
Great video! Nice change from the otherwise often shallow videos a la „top 5 mistakes you didn’t know you did“. Keep up the good work.
I like these educational videos where you tell not just how to get better performace but, the insight into the material engineering and manufacturing process is quite edifying. Should be good for learning about sustainability / environmental impact :)
PS: Those gloves look very safe! :D
Fantastic video professor Ollie! I really want a Mg frame now! Oh and keep that guy on staff forever, no one can explain as well as he can.
Kudos to you, I'm a mtber and a mech tech and I applaud your content. Magnesium alloys have been about for years now and as you stated carbon fibre is not really environmentally friendly - if someone could inform the University's who are plodding down this route anyway I digress I still like my titanium a bike frame for life.
titanium will be unattainable for some time to come with the Russian sources now under Putins business model. these products are made for personalities, not for 'purposes'. personality pins for a hat.
Titanium...👍👍👍
Cycling, chemistry, and comedy all in one: what's not to love about this video?
The lightest or least dense metal that is a pure element is lithium, which has a density of 0.534 g/cm3. This makes lithium nearly half as dense as water, so if lithium was not so reactive, a chunk of the metal would float on water. Two other metallic elements are less dense than water.
Previously owned the first Pinarello Dogma which was a magmesium alloy frame. Was a great bike
I put together a VAAST R/1 bike with Shimano Ultegra Di2 12 speed. It is a fantastic bike. I especially like it on longer rides.
Can't wait to see first frames made from either vibranium or unobtanium!
Im still running a 2005 merida magnesium elite in blue/green with updated bits, still looks BOX FRESH too and i absolutely love the thing, never part with it
Awesome humorous video presentation. Thank you Ollie 😁🙌
I know that Pinarello made a Magnesium bike back in the early 2000's. I remember reading about it in Bicycling magazine. I would have liked to have had the chance to test ride it. If I had the money, I would love to buy a Magnesium bike, so long as it's rim brake, and a threaded bottom bracket. Unfortunately they are still very difficult to find. Thank you.
Oscar Pereiro won the 2006 Tour de France on a Magnesium Pinarello Dogma. (Yes I'm aware Landis was first on the road, but he got DQ for doping,)
I actually have one of those, made in 2005 if I’m correct
I own one! I'm not sure I even knew what I was getting, really. It's the AK61. I just a regular rider, but it feels great, does everything I want from a road bike, and for the $1000 I paid for it all set up and ready to roll with campagnolo kit it's a keeper. I think about all the fancy stuff (electronic shifting and disc brakes, etc.) but once I'm riding all that disappears. It's a bit heavier than carbon and for a few years that got in my head but … now it's out! Besides, it's about pleasure and exercise, not saving off seconds for me. Great bike.
I've always been curious about them, it's good to know Vast has them ready to go when I finally pull the trigger.
7:20 i think the plant is lucky to not have chloroform in it…
haha! you know what i meant! 🤦♂️ chlorophyll ***
@@GCNuser123 good job with this video, Ollie. Charming as usual
Unless it's one of those creepy plants 😅
Please build a road version, rim brake, I’ll order one tomorrow!
would say magnesium is a competitor to aluminum. not steel, titanium or carbon. so an in depth compairison between a comparable frame from Al and Mg would be interesting for the consumer
I wouldn't say they are competitor materials so much as a material is a tool to be used. Each have their place and none is the perfect material for all bikes.
@@cjohnson3836 l mean that they are much closer purchase decision wise. if u want titantium u get titanium. u want carbon u get carbon. but it magnesium gets more widely used the decision could be Al or Mg? while with the other materials it's a decision between frames and not material let's be real
I’ve got about 300 miles into my Vaast A1 and I would definitely not compare it to aluminum or steel. It feels a lot like carbon. Almost impossible to distinguish the ride quality between this bike and a carbon bike. I was able to test drive the bike side-by-side with my Cannondale Topstone five and I ended up trading in the Cannondale towards the A1.
With regards to precision enginnering, it opens the question if is it also precision manufacturable. With thermal expansion higher and conductivity lower than aluminium, magnesium calls for greater disturbances in weld areas.
And no, vibration damping is not about the magnitude of Young modulus. It is about difference in Young modulus at compression and decompression. What VAAST are actually saying here, the frame acts like a softer spring compared to an aluminium or titanium with same tubing. It smoothens the vibration by shifting their frequency, but it doesn't affect the corresponding energy. Yes, "basically ... it's more compliant", but frame stiffness has always been more influenced by tube thickness and dimensioning rather than the chosen material.
big ugly beads that welcome contaminates. this is where they will break unless you keep that huge bead wide, and as deep as possible.
the Youngs modulus of metals in the elastic regime is (Sigma
@@robertrjm8115 you must be a mathematician, right?
Amazingly this video kept my science obsessed child fascinated for the whole thing (think it was the flames and the crystals not the bike frame though) Science is cool. 🤓 We love you too Dr B! Bye
I didn't know this kind of frame even exist. Thanks GCN!!
Ollie stick to Chemistry bud! Damping and stiffness are two completely different things. Low Modulus materials are just less stiff and will vibrate at a lower resonance with larger amplitude. This isn't damping. Most metals only have about 0.1% max molecular damping.
Yeah he is missing the point, metal springs need to be dampen by oil circulating "shocks" to absorb energy.
wanted to say the same. Great video, but the last bit is just wrong in so many ways
By definition, lowering vibration resonance is dampening. Calm down.
wow.. here's me thinking I couldn't actually care less about the vibrational dampenning of a frames material.. but here we are.. You proved me wrong.. congratulations.
@@charlesgatine7045 dweeb.
Always wondered why Mg reamins under-used (exploited). It's a major plyer in suspension forks yet, since Kirk, I've never seen an Mg alloy frame. kinesium? yes. Time to turn backs on landfill CF and get to know Mg Alloy. VAAST, keep up the good work.
I love your science reviews. Keep them coming.
We've been using magnesium for the lowers on suspension forks on mountain bikes for 30 years. It's about time we get some mag frames
As far as I know those are made of an alloy which comprises roughly the same amount of aluminium and magnesium.
Great video. Love this stuff. I know that this is pretty niche, but I'd really like for you to go over stainless steel frames.
Great video, Ollie. Thanks!!
Blowtorch the magnesium frame. For science.
I am all here for these dives into knowledge
This was a fun game of bike chemistry!
I ride Reynolds steel, Kona Bikes.
So glad to hear that polar bears approve of our cycling choices...😂😂😂
I was imagining how they wondered what would be our material of choice to make bikes, while they were out fishing for their next meal...
"Chlorophyll? More like Borophyll!"
Ollie's hairline is must see tv. Also, this video feels like GCN is going to start building and sell magnesium frames. Eurobike 2.0.
what’s up with my hairline?! 😬😂
@@GCNuser123 It's a foolproof way of determining victors and future champs. If everything is equal(skills, size, strength, experience, etc.), then a much fuller and glorious hairline would be the determining factor.
I nominate Ollie for a Nobel Prize in Science Educational Humour!! This was brilliant, entertaining and educational. Love Ollie videos!!! Keep up the great work.
Only bike channel that manages to put Sodium in water, love it.
Sweet! Nice to know about Magnesium alloys. I'm I'm very interested now thanks to you! Now I have to look at another bike darn it.
I considered Mg frame and bits in the past, turned out the problem with frames is they had little fatigue resistance, ie. they're more likely to crack than Aluminium. Pretty kool material though.
As does a carbon frame....
@@marceljanssens5935 I think it depends on how much reserves the frame has. Carbon is very strong in fiber direction, and as a fiber material it has not the classic fatigue of a metal. However, fiber materials can delaminate if they are under stress, and the resin can age and is not UV resistant like a metal.
If a frame is built with as little material as possible it will fail over time, independently which material is used
The welds by the seat post/top tube junction🤣
Fire! Keep it coming.
Ollie, you did it again! Great content
I wonder what happens to the coating on the bottom bracket threads after installation?
If you use grease for mounting them (what should be done with all metal frames) it shouldn't be a problem, grease also protects from corrosion
If bare, corrosion will start. My hunch is standard installation procedure after threading the BB would be to coat the threaded area heavily with a thick grease or similar compound then install the races.
Awesome video ! Really like this approach !
That was a really informative video. 👍
Excellent presentation.. sweet.. simple and nailed it securely. Magnesium certainly has come of age and hopefully become a reasonably affordable and easy to find choice. One kilogram not bad and the ceramic coating included all the better. Its about time. Is this going to hold up in salty coastal and winter roads better than steal ( steal holds up okay in the rust belt but you better use some frame saver and stick to the heavier gauge stuff... a lot of mantainance plus the bike will be heavy. Those coastal bikes should also get the frame saver treatment as they can rust from the inside out and sneak up on you with a bunch of dead tubes that thud and don't ping when you flick it with the nail on your middle finger) and aluminum (my experience aluminum isn't that great ... I've had to call a few costumers and let them know that their frame had some holes under that blistering paint near the bottom bracket and head tube ... carbon fiber just foolish) if so then there is an excellent material for the four seasons everything bicycle. Looking forward to some more scientifically detailed expansion of this topic... more chemistry, material science and engineering.
I had a Kirk Precision back in the 90's with Dura Ace STI. Was an awesome bike, but kept cracking brake stays
I had Kirk Revolution (well I brought one) of these started off with a purple frame plus replacement then a black frame. Snapped a few parts of the frames.
Rode my Kirk last week
I worked at Kirk Precision for 4 years, until it folded in 93. It was a roller coaster
I had one as well. It was like riding a wet noodle. Very flexible material.
This is very Imformative, thanks for letting us know :0
Thank, that was great, really interesting
4:45 I do ride at like -20f in Alaska but moose tend to be out more than polar bears.
2:30 case in point, it's really easy to set steel on fire. Just grab a hunk of fine steel wool, and put a match to it.
The cut at the sparkler has a ton of commedic value.
I'm not a fan of "lumpy" welds. I have a feeling that because of it's low ignition temp, it wouldn't be easy to grind the welds. (unless it was done without Oxygen being present)
Yeah, I think they're terribly ugly but you could probably smooth it out with a filler if it really mattered to you. It'd add a few grams but a few grams isn't going to make a difference for most of us.
@@JoeJoe-lq6bd My old, first generation Aluminum Giant TCR was made with filler, and looks 100% better than this one, with it's blobby welds.
Who cares, welds are functional
@@MarioXcore1 If I'm spending the money they ask for bike frames these days, I want it to be more than just functional. A
purely functional bike can be had for a fraction of the prices they charge.
I love those Videos!
incredible methal, i use to weld magnesium some decades ago, when cars use magnedium wheels. Today aluminium alloys are a better option for car wheels. For road bike i think its a nice option.
Loved this episode! But that also raises the question: why isn’t magnesium used more? I had hoped to see that answered in this video..
How about hydroforming magnesium frames? The mass market would be more likely to buy a nicely formed frame over tubes.
Great call
depends on the person. For many of us, the tubing aesthetics of steel is one of the benefits over Alu
You need to use a blue flame which is super hot to set a light to the frame
Ollie (oh, sorry, Dr. Bridgewood) is awesome! Great information and hilarious
"cheaper than titanium" These Vaast frames seems to be pretty on par with some of the titanium offerings, and I haven't even found another company making magnesium bikes. where in ti there are lots of brands some definitely way more expensive than Vaasts offering, but some cost way less. Maybe the raw material is cheaper and more abundant in the earth but doesn't seem to relate to the price of the product.
Carbon fiber, aluminium and titanium were ridiculously expensive when they were first introduced, I'm willing to allow that the price will come down when Mg achieves the same level of prevalence.
@@galenkehler I don’t think they’ll sell magnesium bikes any cheaper . It’s all profit driven, it’s as much as someone is prepared to pay for them. Sales and marketing will be on one to achieve the maximum price that they can get from a buyer(s)
Check out Zinn custom in Colorado
@@galenkehler It won't. Aluminium is cheaper and more abundant in the supply chain, Carbon is better but more expensive. Magnesium bike frames really don't have a place in the market, much like titanium bikes don't really either, they are just niche products for the sake of it. You can make an argument for Steel touring bikes being repairable by any off the track shop, but even that is a bit tenuous given the alloys used in higher end ones.
This is exactly what it says it is, an Ad. If you want cheap and robust it is a Aluminium, and formally Steel, if you want top end performance, it is Carbon. If you want a fashion piece, maybe go with Magnesium, Titanium, Bamboo, or even wood.
Ehhh what? Vaast is selling their all road frameset for comparable prices to steel frames like those of All City or Velo Orange. Where are you seeing titanium frames for $1300 USD? That's either slave labor or very questionable "titanium".
Whatever savings you get from choosing a magnesium bike will be for the expensive coating and painting? I don't know I talk for me but most riders are concerned with costs along with weight. Its still a shame that AL and MAG bikes cannot be ridden bare like Ti bikes. One of the things I like about a Ti bike is that it doesn't need colour and the natural Titanium looks so amazing.
Mag alloys can catch fire when using power tools like angle grinders on them or when welding or machining them. The swarf from machining is also very flammable and can be ignited by sparks. The manufacturers have to use an inert atmosphere to eliminate oxygen while machining or welding. Source: I worked at a company where we had a magnesium alloy fire in our machine shop because the gas bottle ran out! It makes a blindingly white flame when it's on fire, like an arc welder. A cigarette lighter doesn't produce enough heat to be a problem, and the ceramic coatings are designed to prevent combustion and corrosion. If un-coated and you put a sweaty hand on a piece, it will turn dark grey or black as it reacts.
In terms of energy to produce new material from ore, it's worse than aluminium, because it's more reactive and harder to separate from the oxide. For recycling and reshaping, it takes the least amount of energy compared to the other useful engineering alloys, because it is softer. There's a lot more aluminium and steel in circulation, so there's more infrastructure in place for recycling those.
So … this makes me feel better about my Pinarello AK61 Dogma magnesium frame bike which I got for about $1000 with Camp. equipment. And which makes me very happy. I've always wondered why they did keep making them.
There was an article in one of my 1990s mountain bike magazines about a beryllium frame bike. Design experiment…more expensive than gold they said…
I still like the look of a good steel frame, the very thin bars just make it look beautiful.
Well done!
Cool video, would be curious how it compares to the old Scandium Eddy Merckx bikes
I think this is the "it" bike for me.
I have a high end carbon bike, a high end custom stainless steel bike, a high end vintage steel bike and a high end aluminum bike. But, it looks like magnesium ticks off of the boxes for my next bike, an all-road specific bike. I know I'm done with carbon.
Ever since I've gotten back on metal bikes, I've dropped more "mental weight" in not having to worry about working with my bike (riding rough roads, clamping it into the stand, transport, crashes, etc...), however, I'm pretty sure I won't go back to aluminum. I've ridden titanium, but prefer the ride or steel.
You can't expect any one bike to rule all facets of cycling (comfort, durability, weight, performance, etc...), but it looks like magnesium prioritizes those traits I need most; Comfort & durability + weight savings while still not feeling like a noodle.
I love the feeling of being able to hammer down an imperfect road without worrying about my steel rig...again, loss of mental weight. If I can shed a couple of pounds and keep it in the 15-16 range while still offering a stiff, but NOT bone rattling ride "and" be on a metal bike?
That's the bike I want.
👏 👏 👏 love this
We’re glad !
Wow, Ollie is hilarious. Such a well written video.
In the late 80s in high school I had a road bike with a magnesium fork. I think the brand name was Miyata
Also, it seems there's another imprecision, bare aluminium will not "rust away" like iron carbon alloys as you seem to imply because the oxyde layer of aluminum has enough adherence, impermeability and mechanical toughness to protect the metal beneath, except in more extreme environment like acids below pH4. Whereas, as it is said in the video, magnesium alloys will degrade by corrosion as easily as iron base alloys exposed to ambient air and a bit of moisture. So basically those frame could be one dent in the paint+coating away from rusting like steel bikes do.