Thanks guys. Useful video in that it gave me something to think about regarding the lock position of the brake hand if there is no first runner after the belay. Interesting too to see how you tie the belay device off. I thought you had to tie some half hitches around the live rope so it is releasable under load - but the knot works of course (was it just an overhand?) i have taken to tying an alpine in this scenario and would be interested in your thoughts. currently in the process of re-assessing how I do things so all this was great fodder for thought. Cheers.
Multi pitch newbie here. I've read elsewhere that the anchor should have a piece in the other direction (protecting the belayer from getting pulled into the wall if the climber falls), this makes sense to me. But no mention of it here. I guess no one will reply to this now but just gonna put this out there.
Sometimes there isn't anything available. To stop you getting pulled into the wall you'd need something behind you as well. Having a cam in the belay makes it safer as they are mutli directional. An upside down nut could also be used to stop the belayer being pulled miles upwards and ripping out the belay.
To add, if there is nothing near by for a directional, giving enough space between you and anchor is also an option. Allows you to be pulled a bit without getting to close to anchor. But good note you made
You are right. There a few problems on the video: 1. As you mentioned, there is no other direction anchor. The problem is not a belayer being pulled into the wall. The problem is the belayer being pulled up a meter or two - which can easily happen if partner falls down 4-5 meters - with both anchors go off the positions in the cracks in the wall. In that case you loose the belay entirely. 2. If you belay your partner through yourself as on video, then you will be pulled a lot. You can put belay point into the station on the wall, then belayer won't be pulled, but then you need blocking anchor for sure, and you have to build the whole thing other way. 3. If you go on twin ropes, you must click both ropes in the first quickdraw carabiner, then you start switching which you click..
Very surprised the AMI released this video ( when he arrived at the ledge he should of made himself safe and then started to set up the belay. His first runner he places he puts the rope through and then tells the audience he is safe ? where is the clove-hitch knot ? Considering how good the ledge was i would of tied my second straight into the belay system not into my harness. But hey what do we know hes Qualified !
the lead should have set the jesus piece prior to even creating this belay station and then lowered down and created the belay station after that. Before that first piece is in, a factor 2 fall onto the belayer's harness would likely prove fatal
Less rope drag, longer repels (unless you bring a tag line with you), less chance of taking a huge fall when clipping gear high above you as the other rope isn't being lifted up, force spread over 2 pieces when you fall if the placements are a bit crap. Main disadvantages: expensive (2 ropes to buy), faff
Gentlemen -- If making an educational video, and you are going to spend time talking about the importance of the 1st piece of gear, it isn't appropriate to fail to mention the necessity of that piece being multi-directional. I'm sure you are aware that the first piece, when set for a downward pull, will cause a zipper effect once other pieces are set. I recognize you are climbing primarily on nuts, but for education --- your viewers are taking away the wrong lesson.
He is using it exactly right? No, he is not using the assisted braking that the semi-braking belay plates like the reverso provides but he is doing nothing wrong? If you look at your belay plate there is a mark for the climber's rope and the rope for the brake hand. When you are belaying from above it is reserved compared to from the ground. How would you belay with just a standard tube belay plate from above if this is not a correct way?
ali hasan the climber should be fed the top of the belay device, providing an auto lock if the climber were to fall and the belayer incapacitated. (The auto lock is never to be trusted 100%, but it's pretty much a guarantee)
You do realise there's multiple ways to belay from above depending upon the given situation? For starters guide mode is not always warranted and can be a right pain in the arse. Secondly, a redirected belay isn't a great idea as the force is doubled on that first piece should the second fall off. Ok on a bomber bolt but not so great on a single wire or piece of Trad gear. Plus, it can pull the belayer upwards into the first runner if the second Falls, and depending upon the specifics of the belay setup, can also be a right pain in the arse. On Trad routes where the anchor is anything less than bombproof it's not a bad practice to belay directly off the harness as it places less stress upon the anchor due to the belayers body absorbing a good portion of the force. But like I said, there's multiple approaches to most aspects of anchors and belays depending on the situation.
@@shoqed I'm not sure you read my comment correctly. The sentence which you're questioning is as follows "On Trad routes where the anchor is anything less than bombproof it's not a bad practice to belay directly off the harness as it places less stress upon the anchor due to the belayers body absorbing a good portion of the force." My comment is not about the system used in the video but simply highlighting that, if you choose to belay directly from your harness in a top belay scenario, your body acts as a shock absorber within the rope system, diminishing not the weight but the absolute force placed upon an anchor should your follower fall.
First of all, the belayer is constantly letting go of his braking hand… Second, that is definitely not how to use a reverso to secure a following climber. And third, a runner is put when the lead climber is still secured to the anchor point. In this video the lead climber has a chance to fall before he sets up the runner, and that would have been a factor 2 fall with all the force directly on the belay device of the belayer… This video is quite dangerous…
You don't need to use the reverso in guide mode. Sure, it is handy but you can just as well belay like this. What if you did not have a reverso but just a standard tube? Look at your belay plate and see the markings on it dictating the end for the climber's rope and the one for the braking hand.
Do not use the standard tube. I do not know why, but english climbers get this thaugth thus it is against the instructional manual...are you sure you can gurantee always a 180 degree angle between the incoming and outcoming rope in case of a fall? also this "taking" over is not safe...it was shown that many many climbers who use this technique let go of both hands if they take a lot of slack and things get hectic. with let go, i mean a millisecond maybe less. However if a fall happens you cannot stop this. Second if you use this method, and your follower makes a little bit of s swing you may swing to and who knows what happens then. Another point, which was shown that this taking over technique lead to the fact that people arent grabbing the rope with the "whole hand". you can actually see this in the video. He is grabbing sometimes the rope only with thumb upper part of index and middle finger. We call it in germany "pinzetten griff" (translation: tweezers grab) and this is actually dangerous... last it is also questionable, if this poor first protection is enough for a factor 2 fall...if this goes out, and he falls next to him the belayer cannot hold him, because the tube has no breaking functionality. not really happy about this "instructional" video as there are many open questions and if's and but's...at least they talk about the problem, however, i got the feeling that the belayer is somehow telling me that i just have to put my breaking hand up if my leader falls next to me and everything is fine. i doubt anyone can do this in such a situation
Be careful!!! At around 4 minutes 40 seconds in the video, you can clearly see that the belayer doesn't even have the carabiner in the freaking belay loop. Careful with these videos.
Lots of people (especially in the uk) clip directly into the loop of the knots (as you can see the person has done in the video). Some believe that it gives additional stretch as the rope is more dynamic than a belay loop. Its just as safe either way as the rope goes through the 2 points in the harness to create a closed-loop.
That's standard practice... the rope loop is perfectly strong and adequate for belaying. Be careful commenting on matters you do not understand, puny human. www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129
good info on locking off the rope in a factor 2 fall
Thanks guys. Useful video in that it gave me something to think about regarding the lock position of the brake hand if there is no first runner after the belay. Interesting too to see how you tie the belay device off. I thought you had to tie some half hitches around the live rope so it is releasable under load - but the knot works of course (was it just an overhand?) i have taken to tying an alpine in this scenario and would be interested in your thoughts. currently in the process of re-assessing how I do things so all this was great fodder for thought. Cheers.
Multi pitch newbie here. I've read elsewhere that the anchor should have a piece in the other direction (protecting the belayer from getting pulled into the wall if the climber falls), this makes sense to me. But no mention of it here. I guess no one will reply to this now but just gonna put this out there.
Keep wondering the same thing but other directional gear doesn't get mentioned on a lot of videos. Have you found out any more on this?
Sometimes there isn't anything available. To stop you getting pulled into the wall you'd need something behind you as well. Having a cam in the belay makes it safer as they are mutli directional. An upside down nut could also be used to stop the belayer being pulled miles upwards and ripping out the belay.
To add, if there is nothing near by for a directional, giving enough space between you and anchor is also an option. Allows you to be pulled a bit without getting to close to anchor. But good note you made
You are right. There a few problems on the video:
1. As you mentioned, there is no other direction anchor. The problem is not a belayer being pulled into the wall. The problem is the belayer being pulled up a meter or two - which can easily happen if partner falls down 4-5 meters - with both anchors go off the positions in the cracks in the wall. In that case you loose the belay entirely.
2. If you belay your partner through yourself as on video, then you will be pulled a lot. You can put belay point into the station on the wall, then belayer won't be pulled, but then you need blocking anchor for sure, and you have to build the whole thing other way.
3. If you go on twin ropes, you must click both ropes in the first quickdraw carabiner, then you start switching which you click..
Nothing wrong there, excellent good practice.
Very surprised the AMI released this video ( when he arrived at the ledge he should of made himself safe and then started to set up the belay. His first runner he places he puts the rope through and then tells the audience he is safe ? where is the clove-hitch knot ? Considering how good the ledge was i would of tied my second straight into the belay system not into my harness. But hey what do we know hes Qualified !
what they've done is an appropriate technique for swinging leads from a big ledge. clove hitch would have been needed if they were block leading.
as the anchors are out of reach there isn't an easy masterpoint to quickly clip into either
What route is it ???
the lead should have set the jesus piece prior to even creating this belay station and then lowered down and created the belay station after that. Before that first piece is in, a factor 2 fall onto the belayer's harness would likely prove fatal
Why are they using two different ropes wouldn’t it just work with one rope as well?
yeah, just search up twin ropes, just a bit safer
Double ropes is good for trad climbing where the gear is either side of where you are climbing and with multi pitches gives you longer raps.
Less rope drag, longer repels (unless you bring a tag line with you), less chance of taking a huge fall when clipping gear high above you as the other rope isn't being lifted up, force spread over 2 pieces when you fall if the placements are a bit crap.
Main disadvantages: expensive (2 ropes to buy), faff
The Jesus Nut.
what in the faffiest faff did I just watch
Gentlemen -- If making an educational video, and you are going to spend time talking about the importance of the 1st piece of gear, it isn't appropriate to fail to mention the necessity of that piece being multi-directional. I'm sure you are aware that the first piece, when set for a downward pull, will cause a zipper effect once other pieces are set. I recognize you are climbing primarily on nuts, but for education --- your viewers are taking away the wrong lesson.
Why are you taking your brake hand off the ropes?
Steven Thaw when? I watched this twice and never saw it?
Do you know SERENE?
Where are your personal anchors?
That's not how you use atc guide to belay a second !
He is using it exactly right? No, he is not using the assisted braking that the semi-braking belay plates like the reverso provides but he is doing nothing wrong? If you look at your belay plate there is a mark for the climber's rope and the rope for the brake hand. When you are belaying from above it is reserved compared to from the ground. How would you belay with just a standard tube belay plate from above if this is not a correct way?
ali hasan the climber should be fed the top of the belay device, providing an auto lock if the climber were to fall and the belayer incapacitated. (The auto lock is never to be trusted 100%, but it's pretty much a guarantee)
You do realise there's multiple ways to belay from above depending upon the given situation? For starters guide mode is not always warranted and can be a right pain in the arse. Secondly, a redirected belay isn't a great idea as the force is doubled on that first piece should the second fall off. Ok on a bomber bolt but not so great on a single wire or piece of Trad gear. Plus, it can pull the belayer upwards into the first runner if the second Falls, and depending upon the specifics of the belay setup, can also be a right pain in the arse. On Trad routes where the anchor is anything less than bombproof it's not a bad practice to belay directly off the harness as it places less stress upon the anchor due to the belayers body absorbing a good portion of the force. But like I said, there's multiple approaches to most aspects of anchors and belays depending on the situation.
@@benmace6865 How is "belayers body" absorbing any force? His belay device is clipped into the anchor
@@shoqed I'm not sure you read my comment correctly. The sentence which you're questioning is as follows "On Trad routes where the anchor is anything less than bombproof it's not a bad practice to belay directly off the harness as it places less stress upon the anchor due to the belayers body absorbing a good portion of the force." My comment is not about the system used in the video but simply highlighting that, if you choose to belay directly from your harness in a top belay scenario, your body acts as a shock absorber within the rope system, diminishing not the weight but the absolute force placed upon an anchor should your follower fall.
First of all, the belayer is constantly letting go of his braking hand… Second, that is definitely not how to use a reverso to secure a following climber. And third, a runner is put when the lead climber is still secured to the anchor point. In this video the lead climber has a chance to fall before he sets up the runner, and that would have been a factor 2 fall with all the force directly on the belay device of the belayer… This video is quite dangerous…
katia moreo when does his hand come off the brake?
You don't need to use the reverso in guide mode. Sure, it is handy but you can just as well belay like this. What if you did not have a reverso but just a standard tube? Look at your belay plate and see the markings on it dictating the end for the climber's rope and the one for the braking hand.
Do not use the standard tube. I do not know why, but english climbers get this thaugth thus it is against the instructional manual...are you sure you can gurantee always a 180 degree angle between the incoming and outcoming rope in case of a fall? also this "taking" over is not safe...it was shown that many many climbers who use this technique let go of both hands if they take a lot of slack and things get hectic. with let go, i mean a millisecond maybe less. However if a fall happens you cannot stop this. Second if you use this method, and your follower makes a little bit of s swing you may swing to and who knows what happens then.
Another point, which was shown that this taking over technique lead to the fact that people arent grabbing the rope with the "whole hand". you can actually see this in the video. He is grabbing sometimes the rope only with thumb upper part of index and middle finger. We call it in germany "pinzetten griff" (translation: tweezers grab) and this is actually dangerous...
last it is also questionable, if this poor first protection is enough for a factor 2 fall...if this goes out, and he falls next to him the belayer cannot hold him, because the tube has no breaking functionality. not really happy about this "instructional" video as there are many open questions and if's and but's...at least they talk about the problem, however, i got the feeling that the belayer is somehow telling me that i just have to put my breaking hand up if my leader falls next to me and everything is fine. i doubt anyone can do this in such a situation
Inwards is personal preference only. Best to clip pro outwards.
Be careful!!! At around 4 minutes 40 seconds in the video, you can clearly see that the belayer doesn't even have the carabiner in the freaking belay loop. Careful with these videos.
Lots of people (especially in the uk) clip directly into the loop of the knots (as you can see the person has done in the video). Some believe that it gives additional stretch as the rope is more dynamic than a belay loop. Its just as safe either way as the rope goes through the 2 points in the harness to create a closed-loop.
That's standard practice... the rope loop is perfectly strong and adequate for belaying. Be careful commenting on matters you do not understand, puny human. www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129
@@osiriswoody5337 It's only standard in the UK, a bit like tying off the tail of the Fig 8 is (there but not necessarily elsewhere
@@MJ720 a key point is that it transfers the load onto the anchors better rather than pulling the belay loop and harness awkwardly
That's a dangerous way to belay the second...
Luis Balsa What makes you think that?
Yeah, I don't get it either? It seems perfectly fine. You don't have to use the Reverso in guide mode as his method is perfectly safe.
What do you think people did before guide mode was invented lol
This was super unhelpful lmao