Laserdiscs are recorded with composite signal. The difference in quality between S-Video (Y/C) and composite will depend on how good the comb filter in each device is. My guess would be that the Retrotink has a better comb filter than the LD player. If that's the case, composite signal will actually look better on the Retrotink.
Like you said: it depends on the player.. so if you got the best LaserDisc player money could buy (the LD and DVD combo) you probably gonna get the cleanest video output, be it from the composite or S Video.
@@Supervocetubeia64 The comb filters in the players were generally not all that great since they're from the 90s after all. Granted not sure the one in the retrotink is either, I think it's still just a 2D one and not a 3D one which looks at multiple frames and can do a better job. One challenge with the use cases in the video (videotape, laserdisc and similar) is that to do them optimally (sofisticated 3D Y/C separation, buffering to handle videotape instability etc) requires adding some delay and processing which you obviously don't want in the primary use case for this device which is retro gaming, so while it can probably do a relatively good job, a device that was designed around LD/videotape specifically would be ideal.
@@gurugee2112 there's plenty of players where s-video looks better, mostly the later/higher end models. my player's composite output looks noticeably worse.
Great video. I was a RT4K beta tester and have a lot of advice from Mike Chi about LaserDisc specific settings. For all players you want IRE 7.5, that's why it's washed out. Also, composite is cleanest, especially with the new 3D comb filter that's been added.
Thanks! It's an ongoing trial and error getting the best image. On my Laserdisc players the composite is definitely not the cleanest. S-VHS works much better for me. I haven't tried the latest firmware though. Also, Japanese and US Laserdisc require different IRE settings. At least most often.
Do you still want IRE 7.5 if you're using a LD player only sold in Japan, or a Japanese LD release? Whisper of the Heart (Studio Ghibli) has darker black levels compared to most other US releases I have, I suspect that's due to it being intended for Japanese home ntsc tvs.
I did some testing with a PAL VCR. I really like the scanline and mask options. Also the CRT emulation option for deinterlacing gives the realistic CRT experience. I suggest using Gaussian scanlines with strength 0 and modulation 20 and whatever mask you want at strength -3 or so. Also enabling HDR output in color correction menu. At least that looks realistic to me on my OLED TV
Good tips, thanks! I have a couple of different modern setups and I have to adjust many of the settings quite severe, for each of them, so what type of tv/projector one might have will do some tuning. Luckily we can store different profiles for easy recall.
Great video, can you do a part 2 with other input formats? Be nice to see. Every other Retrotink video I've seen is about gaming, nice to see the device used in this way for a change.
It's impressive, except a lot of interlacing effects. What about the deinterlacer filter? Can be Retrotink be used as input to digitalize old analog self made tapes?
It sure can. The settings are so many that it takes a while to explore all the options and I'm having lots of profiles stored for different types of releases.
I noticed your Tink settings in Processing / Effects Setup has Hori. Kernel set to Lanczos3. Try setting that to Biliner Sharp. Also turn off Scanline and only use a Mask. Try the A Grille Coarse RGB around -6 (tweak to liking). I've been super happy with those setting on a VCR
It doesn't look good to me. But I prefer to do a proper reverse 3:2 pulldown and display the original frames as faithful as possible. I now use a Faroudja dvp-1010 clone (jvc actually), which does a decent job. The unstable transfer can still result in flickering lines though. Everyone says the s-video output on the Laserdisc is useless, just judge for yourself! In my case, the s-video output of my Pioneer dvl-700 is always sharper than the composite output. I read somewhere that the chroma and luma in the laserdisc player is separated, and that tbc happens only on the chroma signal. These signals are combined to produce the composite output.
Since I am still rocking a DVDO VP20 video processor to watch my Laserdiscs on a modern screen, maybe when I decide to go 4K I will take a look at this retrotink
What's so amazing about Tink4K, is that if you use it's Triple Strobe BFI it can remove almost 60% of QD-OLED motion blur for film/TV(at 24fps & 30fps) if you're using a 144hz QD-OLED TV, AND it cuts down that choppy OLED film judder to that of a CRT, yet even better. Basically tackling those two big glaring issues with OLED technology and making your movie & TV watching experience on QD-OLED have plasma Tier motion clarity, but with the benefits of QD-OLED, like perfect blacks and higher brightness. You can also use the Tink4K to inject HDR10 into SDR to regain or get a big brightness boost after losing 50-60% brightness when using it's BFI too. The downside is that in order to do so, it caps the resolution at 1080p, and introduces BFI flicker. And of course you can't do the following with HDR content. It's SDR only. I haven't tried it first hand, but i'm definitely curious! :P
@antivanti the post RC26 updates have mostly been focused on mitigation of the bad batch of Micro SD cards the tink4k came with (seller screwed over mike chi) and improved Mister compatibility. Not sure what HDR options you mean, HLG was available on the 5X but was a workaround for it not having the ability to properly map SDR to the HDR colorspace, which the RT4K is capable of doing.
I have found success comparing a CRT side by side with my LCD screen or projector to make the needed setting adjustments on the Retrotink. The TV monitor is a 26” NEC model I’ve loved for 25 years. I’m working on a theory that LD releases from a particular studio can use the same saved preset once I find what I like. First noticed this on Criterion releases which is logical, but seems to apply to early DiscoVision as well.
Agreed. You need a lot of different profiles setup on the Retrotink to cater for vastly different laserdisc releases. This video is just to show the possibilities within this little box.
I was really interested on how this excellent gaming scaler works for movies and my assumptions were true that it works great for that as well. So for retro gaming and home cinema lovers it's probably a great allrounder. CRTs becoming rarer and breaking down make this an excellent preservation device that comes close to a CRT and I'm excited for what the future holds. (For clarification: This doesn't completely replace CRTs)
@@5minutesofretro It's a nice product (and not a replacement) but I'm also keeping my mid 2000's jvc which has pal 50/60 and it even supports ntsc (I'm also from europe) I'm just impressed with how well the tink4k performs with movies (I can't afford one)
I should get one of these in preparation for when future AV receivers don’t have any analog upscaling capabilities. One thing this still needs is a closed caption decoder.
5:29 looking at the image. Have you adapted for the different IRE levels for NTSC? As the images seem to running with elevated black levels. For example my plasma runs NTSC at -25 from the default 0 middle position, which is where any PAL discs are placed. For this I take advantage of NTSC as "night" mode and Pal as the "Day" to compensate. Also thank you for this video as the scaler looks almost to good to be true with features and it's price for gaming and I instantly wondered what it could do for Laserdisc. Thank you
Yes I have. It's an ongoing process and no setting will work superb on every release. The Japanese laserdisc releases have a very different picture than US releases and so on. I'll end up with many different profiles depending on what I'll put up on the big screen. That's part of the fun with this.
This to me is the biggest problem running LDs on modern panels is the colors look washed out and blacks grey-ish compared to how I remember them on a CRT. I always have to dial in crazy custom contrast settings on any input on my TVs to try and get something decent looking.
I'd like to see the Retrotink with classic early 80s arcade games. CRT arcade monitors are getting harder and harder to repair with parts like flybacks becoming more difficult to obtain, finding people to repair them, and even obtaining them other than common TV's. So far I've never seen anything too convincing as a modern alternative. Certain games really stand out and were designed to use the CRT as an art form for the characters and graphics. A few good tests would be Pacman, Centipede, Gorf and Wizard of War. I use the MAME emulator with a 19" RGB CRT arcade monitor as I built a cabinet with a horizontal and vertical monitor of the same type. The images look pretty spot on to the original machines. I previously tried a 19" SVGA CRT computer monitor from the 90s. The tube being higher resolution didn't look the same (although a lot better than modern displays for classic games). The characters in Pacman & Centipede were noticeably different than the original machine or my "arcade" CRT's I use now. I also noticed a big different with screen intensities between the computer monitor and the arcade monitor in Wizard of War, Gorf and other games during fades and transitions between levels. And of course, I've never seen any modern HDMI display look even close for classic games so far and the images that were smoothed out by the CRT have blocky pixelated graphics instead. I'd be curious to see side by side comparisons between Retrotink on a HDTV vs an arcade CRT or even TV, as a TV has a tube closer to a classic arcade monitor than a computer CRT monitor from the 90s. Especially true if you have a SCART picture which we don't have here in the USA, producing more of an RGB type picture than our lousy composite video of RCA connectors or other. The Retrotink "at quick glance" here does produce a picture more like a CRT for your movies. I'd have to see it in person. I will say, $700 does seem rather expensive for such a device. Maybe over time a competitor will come out for a tiny fraction the price. As a unique product, for the few people that want them they can probably command top dollar until a competitor co. I also think with software emulation of arcade games, the scanline simulation could be done as well entirely in software, but so far I've yet to see any realistic looking display from them. I'll also mention for your viewers, while a classic RGB CRT produces the best picture for classic arcade games, it does not produce the best picture for classic movies or TV shows. Films and many TV shows were actually shot of much higher quality than what an NTSC or PAL TV could display. That's all we had generally in our homes until the 2000s. Today, nearly any movie old or new can be found with a high quality 35mm transfer to a digital format, which offers a far better picture on a modern display. It's like seeing the films in the theater again vs our limited low resolution TV's. But the real surprise is.....even many old TV shows were actually shot on film too, so a lot of old TV shows are much more detailed on a modern display. Of course in your case, your looking to watch them closer to the way you originally watched them at home for nostalgia rather than watch them at their best quality now technically possible, but with a modern display. Classic movies and TV shows look best on modern displays, but the opposite is true of classic video games so far.
A niche product like this, made by one guy , as a passion-project, will always be more expensive than mass production. I can appreciate that. I also think there is at least one quite expensive chip in here too. I think this was a great purchase for me as it does exactly what I wanted it to do. With the least amount of fuzz, cabling and infrastructure.
@@5minutesofretro I'd be curious to see a video on that. Although I got a C-64 in early 1983 and was President of the Commodore users group I joined in 83 by 1986, The C-64 now interests me the least of the classic systems. I traded my C-64 & disk drive in the 80s for an FB-01, but I was given two more C-64's in the early 90s with disk drives and a C-64c of which I still have them. I don't think I've ever turned them on. The C-64 was fun in 1983 especially for games, but I lost interest in it. I never completely lost interest in the Amiga, but I've discovered in more recent years all the great Atari 8 bit games that are more colorful than C-64 games. And I'm still nostalgic of my Apple ][ stuff occasionally. Been playing Atari 2600 games again, occasionally Colecovision and my Vectrex was always a favorite.
As always with a Composite and S-Video Signal, motion sometimes leaves those small commonly red artifacts. But otherwise there are very few signs that this is even run through either of those signals, Its really cool to see, I love Laserdisc, and would love to see you run this with the Phantom Menace, just to see how well it would upscale.
Guessing no 3/2 pulldown? How’s the comb filter on composite? Feels like it’s more suitable for retro gamers. I suppose the addition of scan lines is a matter of taste and personal preference. But back in the day of projecting LD on CRT projectors, scan lines were the one thing we DIDNT want to see. An interesting product that could gain some traction if it was geared to also include an effective pulldown solution for film based content on video. This is the first I’ve heard of this product… so I guess I’ll take a deeper look. But I can’t see any reason to retire the Lumagen just yet.
It has both 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown. You can also add 23 and 24 Hz output if you add custom mode lines. I haven't tried that yet but that's the answer I got straight from Mike Chi
The deinterlacing options are extensive. Including the regular ones as well as motion adaptive and even CRT emulation which works with the scanline emulation to produce a very authentic CRT experience
I know exactly what you mean in terms of scanlines back in the day hen projecting. ;-) I think it's a little bit different now as we have way better options in terms of clarity and definition with 4K UHD releases etc, so when I now watch Laserdisc on the big screen, with admittedly much lower resolution the "fake" scanlines adds a pleasing patina to the image. I prefer it over watching without it. Again, when projecting these old formats up on my 100". ;-)
Nice Video 👍. I'm going to recommend you turn on the 7.5 IRE in the SDP settings next time you use the tink4k to watch movie content. It's a raised black level that was used for NTSC TVs and it's not on by default since the only game console that followed it was the original Xbox in 480i.
True, but there are significant variations between Japanese and US NTSC releases and some benefit greatly from 7.5 IRE, while others do not. Thank goodness for multiple profile setups.
@@5minutesofretro yeah, no. screwed up master, maybe. but 7.5 was the standard they should have followed and the disc should put out. test laser discs were available for calibration.
The scanlines aren't going to look good on here due to the compression UA-cam uses. I would also suggest using Bob (Bob deinterlace) since the default is set to"Motion Adaptive", but you are still getting combing artifacts on edges. Bob will completely eliminate it.
Hmm, I get that you're after the "look", as if you were playing SD sources on a HD CRT. But that's way too many scanlines for a faithful playback of analog video formats. To really trick your eyes into seeing more detail than is really there, like the real CRT does, and to get rid of jaggies/shimmering on very detailed releases, you really need to match the scanlines to the actual vertical resolution (240p or 480p after deinterlacing). I would love to see what the laserdiscs and the betas look like that way (my guess: amazing!), and as a bonus it will survive youtube compression *much* better.
I was wondering if the LD could be upscaled to 1080p. looks like u jus went from 480i to 560i which is a very small improvement.. But what about watching them on a flat screen TV of today. Most Ppl or any hav a old tube TV.. Great vid...
While I’m all for scanlines on video games in 240p, i find that movies, to be close to original would be the film look so no scanlines at all. On the video it looked like that the scan line generation also introduced interlacing artefacts on the motion. Will the Retrotink 4K actually improve a laserdisc image or is it the old saying crap in crap out?
I don't think any scaler actually improves a laserdisc image. You can't enhance what's not there. As I say in the video, I prefer and do watch my laserdiscs on a CRT, that's the absolute best way. There are times though, when I do want to watch them on a bigger screen, for different reasons and for those times I want the image to the best I can get it, as close to a CRT as possible. That's it, nothing more.
The interlacing artifacts you're seeing are due to incorrect deinterlacer/scanline settings in the video. It's set to use the weave deinterlacer with post-deinterlacing scanlines, resulting in combing artifacts and 480p scanlines. For better results you'll want motion adaptive deinterlacing (maybe with the edge adaptive option, not sure how well that works on video content) with scanlines on top (which would be 480p-style), or you'll want CRT simulate scanlines (which uses bobbing 480i scanlines to do the deinterlacing and simulates how a CRT does it, hence the name).
Hard to tell from your video but it appeared you were using non-integer scaling whilst also using scanlines, this will of course cause uneven lines/ non-uniform clustering. If thats the case (again, I couldnt tell), Id suggest trying integer scaling as that will look much better.
Total noob but been thinking about digitizing a few VHS's, would a scaler like the retrotink (5x or 4k) be a good idea or just capture the signal directly from vhs via either composite or (if the vhs has it) RGB from the scart? would appreciate any input you may have.
Both the 5x and 4K would be great at this. RGB from Scart would probably be best. No hard rules with these things. You must play with the settings and find out what works best for you.
Amazing device. Does it support video game consoles? If I hook it up with a concole like Sega Genesis, what kind of picture quality and input lag should we expect?
It's actually primarily designed for retro game consoles, stuff like laserdisc is just a bonus. Essentially zero input lag (a few milliseconds, a fraction of one frame), and you can get quite good picture quality with a good RGB or YPbPr cable for the Genesis. Of course the quality of the consoles depends on the quality of the output. Composite video from a Genesis look pretty terrible, while RGB looks pretty good. But for other consoles there's not as big a difference, and for some consoles like the NES you really need to install a mod to get good video quality out of them.
Hello can u test VHS and without scanlines check all deinterlacing abilities? (I can't find how this device fight deinterlacing on non consoles video) thanks!
@@5minutesofretro yep, looking to motion adaptive way that gen 50/60p from 50/60i instead 25/30 and that without combing artifacts 😹 also curious about how does CRT emulated grid shaders will look on video footage there also no tests except games 🤗
Which edition of Legend is that? The theatrical cut released in north america is vastly different from the cut released elsewhere, even the score was changed. Neither is as full and complete as what is now labeled as the Director's Cut on dvd and bluray. In the US, Legend was never released in widescreen until dvd but some PAL international cut LDs were letterboxed.
This is release 40193. It's not letterboxed, but it has the Tangerine Dream soundtrack. As a collector I have this. It served a purpose for this video.
@5minutesofretro Tangerine Dream score means it's the North American version distributed by Universal. The first time that version got a widescreen release was the 2002 dvd, which also was the first time the recently rediscovered director's cut was made available.
@@5minutesofretro I prefer the director's cut which has the Goldsmith score. However I have not seen the theatrical version (outside of north america) that had the Goldsmith score retained.
Would be nice to hear more on the audio output side. When sending Dts or Ac3 in from the Ld player what format does the retrotink 4k spit it out as? Is it coverted to multi-channel pcm or is it simply passthrough to bitstream for av receivers?
Yes, I run the AC3 out of the LD and optically into the Retrotink. It then comes out the HDMI and is picked up as such in my AV receiver. Works without any fuzz. Same for DTS.
Thank you for this vid! I was curious if you have tried your 4k blu rays with the Retrotinks BFI features. I have heard it helps make the picture look more like traditional film with good grain. Would love to see a video about that!
Yes, I know the tink will down res the 4k picture to 1080p, but I love the motion resolution/clarity of BFI so I’m curious if it’s worth the trade-off for home theater.
Laserdisc players have no other out than composite (Y/C) or sometimes RGB out the Scart. The internals of the Laserdisc player varies a lot too so no definitive answer here. You just have to try out what's working the best.
It looks like an interesting device, but contrary to their claims it's output is not 4K. I looked up the Retrotink 4K user manual. They're lying about it having 4K output. It says "Default resolution and framerate for 4k displays, aka 3840x2160p." That's not 4K, it's UHD. 4K is 4096 x 2160. The difference isn't great, but it's still there. I'm sick of companies claiming to have 4K, but it's actually UHD. So-called "4K UHD" discs are UHD. Most 4K TVs (including mine) are actually UHD. UA-cam claims to have 4K videos, but they're also actually UHD.
Rather than downloading a 4K copy of the movie for free from Pahe, I'll just pull out an SD Laserdisc copy that I should have sold on eBay 20 years ago and upscale it AND ADD SCANLINES (LOL!) to make it look at least 2000 times worse. What is wrong with people? The world makes things MUCH better for them, like CDs instead of vinyl, and a small minority of asshats cling on to the obsolete because it's cool, or something. Sheesh!
UHD Blu-ray, Blu-ray, streaming and even DVD all are better than Laser Disc. That's not subjective but just plain fact. No point in bringing up classic cars as that comparison holds no water.
Scanlines for video? Why? Scanlines are too distracting and hide details from the picture. They are meant for old 8-16-32 bit videogames with low resolution; not video. We didn't see scanlines when watching analog video back in the '80s-'90s because the difference between those video formats and the CRT TV resolution is not enough big to show scanlines. Sorry, but Retrotink 4K is not the ultimate scaler for LaserDisc. In this video I can see a lot of pixelation, ghosting and digital artifacts. I prefer to use a 480i CRT TV for 480i content.
I do watch the majority of my Laserdiscs on my Sony Trinitron CRT, but occasionally I watch them on modern displays/projectors and the Retrotink is awesome.
Why the fuck would one want to add those ridiculous scanline effects? It's not going to trick you into believing you watch a CRT and it does not even come close to looking half like it anyway.
To each it's own I guess. I get it if you would apply this to older games but video's? That's insanity to me. As a lover of cinema I want the best quality possible or at least the most affordable best quality. To add scanlines for a nostalgic feeling is something I don't understand. I mean, I understand being nostalgic about older media and how you play them but not if can get better versions at home through Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray discs.
Laserdisc almost always have the original color grading and original stereo theatrical mix. As well as (again, almost always) the original cuts with no digital alterations censorship or other manipulations. The love of this is the true sign of a movie lover, not necessarily the love of resolution. That can always be improved on.
TVS AV ou HDMI ruim porblemo jogos coisas LED HDR UHD LCD SDR feios pior Composite FAIL Ruin só fraco difícil feios viu não gosto 👎 (cego on) TVS RGB PASS Off AV bem verdade rápido ganhar Jogos AV Luz limpar ótimo limpar RGB CRT até gosto bonitos muito Super Nintendo AV 240p👌CRT👌 limpar só Off ganhar 4.3 é 16.9 deixar 👌😘👍 $750 pior roubar Retro Tink 4k🤦♂️😡 R$3.500.00 🙎♂️🤦♂️😡 AV2HDMI bem Ruin composite pior ON cego pablema R$45.00 até Retro Scaler 2x On limpar bem 😂 AV ou HDMI R$100.00 😂Scaler 2x😂
Laserdiscs are recorded with composite signal. The difference in quality between S-Video (Y/C) and composite will depend on how good the comb filter in each device is. My guess would be that the Retrotink has a better comb filter than the LD player. If that's the case, composite signal will actually look better on the Retrotink.
Like you said: it depends on the player.. so if you got the best LaserDisc player money could buy (the LD and DVD combo) you probably gonna get the cleanest video output, be it from the composite or S Video.
@@KayoMichiels yeah, it's true. If the comb filter inside the player is better than the one on the Retrotink then yes, S-Video will look better.
@@Supervocetubeia64 The comb filters in the players were generally not all that great since they're from the 90s after all. Granted not sure the one in the retrotink is either, I think it's still just a 2D one and not a 3D one which looks at multiple frames and can do a better job.
One challenge with the use cases in the video (videotape, laserdisc and similar) is that to do them optimally (sofisticated 3D Y/C separation, buffering to handle videotape instability etc) requires adding some delay and processing which you obviously don't want in the primary use case for this device which is retro gaming, so while it can probably do a relatively good job, a device that was designed around LD/videotape specifically would be ideal.
s-video on laser disc players was a scam. composite ALWAYS looked better.
@@gurugee2112 there's plenty of players where s-video looks better, mostly the later/higher end models. my player's composite output looks noticeably worse.
Great video. I was a RT4K beta tester and have a lot of advice from Mike Chi about LaserDisc specific settings. For all players you want IRE 7.5, that's why it's washed out. Also, composite is cleanest, especially with the new 3D comb filter that's been added.
Thanks! It's an ongoing trial and error getting the best image. On my Laserdisc players the composite is definitely not the cleanest. S-VHS works much better for me. I haven't tried the latest firmware though. Also, Japanese and US Laserdisc require different IRE settings. At least most often.
Do you still want IRE 7.5 if you're using a LD player only sold in Japan, or a Japanese LD release?
Whisper of the Heart (Studio Ghibli) has darker black levels compared to most other US releases I have, I suspect that's due to it being intended for Japanese home ntsc tvs.
Thank you for this video and thank you all for your comments. Got my tink4k not too long ago and I'm still learning how to run the system.
Nice!!! Great retrospect. I grew up in Betamax then vhs & Laserdisc with stereo and AC3/DOLBY DIGITAL. I STILL HAVE MY Laserdisc movies.
I did some testing with a PAL VCR. I really like the scanline and mask options. Also the CRT emulation option for deinterlacing gives the realistic CRT experience.
I suggest using Gaussian scanlines with strength 0 and modulation 20 and whatever mask you want at strength -3 or so. Also enabling HDR output in color correction menu. At least that looks realistic to me on my OLED TV
Good tips, thanks! I have a couple of different modern setups and I have to adjust many of the settings quite severe, for each of them, so what type of tv/projector one might have will do some tuning. Luckily we can store different profiles for easy recall.
Great video, can you do a part 2 with other input formats? Be nice to see. Every other Retrotink video I've seen is about gaming, nice to see the device used in this way for a change.
It's impressive, except a lot of interlacing effects. What about the deinterlacer filter?
Can be Retrotink be used as input to digitalize old analog self made tapes?
It sure can. The settings are so many that it takes a while to explore all the options and I'm having lots of profiles stored for different types of releases.
Retrotink devices have great de-interlacing solutions.
This is what I'm thinking. I want a way to digitize personal footage in higher resolution.
The RetroTINK 4k has a built in Time Base Corrector (TBC) which would do a lot to correct your magnetic media playback.
I noticed your Tink settings in Processing / Effects Setup has Hori. Kernel set to Lanczos3. Try setting that to Biliner Sharp. Also turn off Scanline and only use a Mask. Try the A Grille Coarse RGB around -6 (tweak to liking).
I've been super happy with those setting on a VCR
Thanks for the tips!
It doesn't look good to me. But I prefer to do a proper reverse 3:2 pulldown and display the original frames as faithful as possible. I now use a Faroudja dvp-1010 clone (jvc actually), which does a decent job. The unstable transfer can still result in flickering lines though. Everyone says the s-video output on the Laserdisc is useless, just judge for yourself! In my case, the s-video output of my Pioneer dvl-700 is always sharper than the composite output. I read somewhere that the chroma and luma in the laserdisc player is separated, and that tbc happens only on the chroma signal. These signals are combined to produce the composite output.
The RetroTink 4K actually does have reverse telecine options. They're just not showed off here.
Since I am still rocking a DVDO VP20 video processor to watch my Laserdiscs on a modern screen, maybe when I decide to go 4K I will take a look at this retrotink
Elbow Pads and Knee Pads and Taped Wrists and MMA Style Gloves 01|01|1950 - 31|12|2050
Some of the LD's look great on the Retrotink, very handy device personally I couldn't justify it for the money.
It's not cheap for sure.
What's so amazing about Tink4K, is that if you use it's Triple Strobe BFI it can remove almost 60% of QD-OLED motion blur for film/TV(at 24fps & 30fps) if you're using a 144hz QD-OLED TV, AND it cuts down that choppy OLED film judder to that of a CRT, yet even better. Basically tackling those two big glaring issues with OLED technology and making your movie & TV watching experience on QD-OLED have plasma Tier motion clarity, but with the benefits of QD-OLED, like perfect blacks and higher brightness. You can also use the Tink4K to inject HDR10 into SDR to regain or get a big brightness boost after losing 50-60% brightness when using it's BFI too.
The downside is that in order to do so, it caps the resolution at 1080p, and introduces BFI flicker. And of course you can't do the following with HDR content. It's SDR only. I haven't tried it first hand, but i'm definitely curious! :P
You should probably update the firmware btw. I think latest version is 1.0.4 and you seem to be on some pre-final release candidate version
RC26 stands for Release Candidate 26, and is the one it launched with. Not sure anything in the updates will improve movie playback yet. :)
@@kidvideo14 No but it looks like the HDR options were missing? Anyway it's got some updates in the newer firmware
@antivanti the post RC26 updates have mostly been focused on mitigation of the bad batch of Micro SD cards the tink4k came with (seller screwed over mike chi) and improved Mister compatibility.
Not sure what HDR options you mean, HLG was available on the 5X but was a workaround for it not having the ability to properly map SDR to the HDR colorspace, which the RT4K is capable of doing.
@@kidvideo14 In the video I thought it looked like the HDR setting was missing but I may have missed it or I mistook what menu was showing
The one labeled Front Y/C looks better to me
All looked good to me without the scanlines. Hope you got the retrotink for a good price.
Keep in mind scanlines generally don't translate on UA-cam's compression. RT4K's CRT simulation looks super convincing when seen directly.
Agreed. Much much better than what's perceived watching it back online.
I have found success comparing a CRT side by side with my LCD screen or projector to make the needed setting adjustments on the Retrotink. The TV monitor is a 26” NEC model I’ve loved for 25 years. I’m working on a theory that LD releases from a particular studio can use the same saved preset once I find what I like. First noticed this on Criterion releases which is logical, but seems to apply to early DiscoVision as well.
Agreed. You need a lot of different profiles setup on the Retrotink to cater for vastly different laserdisc releases. This video is just to show the possibilities within this little box.
I was really interested on how this excellent gaming scaler works for movies and my assumptions were true that it works great for that as well.
So for retro gaming and home cinema lovers it's probably a great allrounder.
CRTs becoming rarer and breaking down make this an excellent preservation device that comes close to a CRT and I'm excited for what the future holds.
(For clarification: This doesn't completely replace CRTs)
I'm still keeping, and using my 1990 Sony Trinitron. ;-)
@@5minutesofretro It's a nice product (and not a replacement) but I'm also keeping my mid 2000's jvc which has pal 50/60 and it even supports ntsc (I'm also from europe)
I'm just impressed with how well the tink4k performs with movies (I can't afford one)
I should get one of these in preparation for when future AV receivers don’t have any analog upscaling capabilities. One thing this still needs is a closed caption decoder.
5:29 looking at the image. Have you adapted for the different IRE levels for NTSC? As the images seem to running with elevated black levels. For example my plasma runs NTSC at -25 from the default 0 middle position, which is where any PAL discs are placed. For this I take advantage of NTSC as "night" mode and Pal as the "Day" to compensate.
Also thank you for this video as the scaler looks almost to good to be true with features and it's price for gaming and I instantly wondered what it could do for Laserdisc. Thank you
Yes I have. It's an ongoing process and no setting will work superb on every release. The Japanese laserdisc releases have a very different picture than US releases and so on. I'll end up with many different profiles depending on what I'll put up on the big screen. That's part of the fun with this.
This to me is the biggest problem running LDs on modern panels is the colors look washed out and blacks grey-ish compared to how I remember them on a CRT. I always have to dial in crazy custom contrast settings on any input on my TVs to try and get something decent looking.
I've always turned up the color saturation on my CRTs as well when watching laserdiscs.
I'd like to see the Retrotink with classic early 80s arcade games. CRT arcade monitors are getting harder and harder to repair with parts like flybacks becoming more difficult to obtain, finding people to repair them, and even obtaining them other than common TV's.
So far I've never seen anything too convincing as a modern alternative. Certain games really stand out and were designed to use the CRT as an art form for the characters and graphics. A few good tests would be Pacman, Centipede, Gorf and Wizard of War.
I use the MAME emulator with a 19" RGB CRT arcade monitor as I built a cabinet with a horizontal and vertical monitor of the same type. The images look pretty spot on to the original machines. I previously tried a 19" SVGA CRT computer monitor from the 90s. The tube being higher resolution didn't look the same (although a lot better than modern displays for classic games). The characters in Pacman & Centipede were noticeably different than the original machine or my "arcade" CRT's I use now. I also noticed a big different with screen intensities between the computer monitor and the arcade monitor in Wizard of War, Gorf and other games during fades and transitions between levels. And of course, I've never seen any modern HDMI display look even close for classic games so far and the images that were smoothed out by the CRT have blocky pixelated graphics instead.
I'd be curious to see side by side comparisons between Retrotink on a HDTV vs an arcade CRT or even TV, as a TV has a tube closer to a classic arcade monitor than a computer CRT monitor from the 90s. Especially true if you have a SCART picture which we don't have here in the USA, producing more of an RGB type picture than our lousy composite video of RCA connectors or other.
The Retrotink "at quick glance" here does produce a picture more like a CRT for your movies. I'd have to see it in person.
I will say, $700 does seem rather expensive for such a device. Maybe over time a competitor will come out for a tiny fraction the price. As a unique product, for the few people that want them they can probably command top dollar until a competitor co. I also think with software emulation of arcade games, the scanline simulation could be done as well entirely in software, but so far I've yet to see any realistic looking display from them.
I'll also mention for your viewers, while a classic RGB CRT produces the best picture for classic arcade games, it does not produce the best picture for classic movies or TV shows. Films and many TV shows were actually shot of much higher quality than what an NTSC or PAL TV could display. That's all we had generally in our homes until the 2000s. Today, nearly any movie old or new can be found with a high quality 35mm transfer to a digital format, which offers a far better picture on a modern display. It's like seeing the films in the theater again vs our limited low resolution TV's. But the real surprise is.....even many old TV shows were actually shot on film too, so a lot of old TV shows are much more detailed on a modern display. Of course in your case, your looking to watch them closer to the way you originally watched them at home for nostalgia rather than watch them at their best quality now technically possible, but with a modern display. Classic movies and TV shows look best on modern displays, but the opposite is true of classic video games so far.
A niche product like this, made by one guy , as a passion-project, will always be more expensive than mass production. I can appreciate that. I also think there is at least one quite expensive chip in here too.
I think this was a great purchase for me as it does exactly what I wanted it to do. With the least amount of fuzz, cabling and infrastructure.
@@5minutesofretro When you get a chance, try it out with some classic video games from the early 80s.
I use it with my Commodore 64 machines as well. That's the only vintage computers I use for retro gaming.
@@5minutesofretro I'd be curious to see a video on that.
Although I got a C-64 in early 1983 and was President of the Commodore users group I joined in 83 by 1986, The C-64 now interests me the least of the classic systems. I traded my C-64 & disk drive in the 80s for an FB-01, but I was given two more C-64's in the early 90s with disk drives and a C-64c of which I still have them. I don't think I've ever turned them on.
The C-64 was fun in 1983 especially for games, but I lost interest in it. I never completely lost interest in the Amiga, but I've discovered in more recent years all the great Atari 8 bit games that are more colorful than C-64 games. And I'm still nostalgic of my Apple ][ stuff occasionally. Been playing Atari 2600 games again, occasionally Colecovision and my Vectrex was always a favorite.
Couldn't have said it better myself. The price of this is ridiculous!
There is a scanline filter that mimic the red, green and blue sub pixels of a crt
I am thinking about applying filters and scanlines to Plex now
As always with a Composite and S-Video Signal, motion sometimes leaves those small commonly red artifacts. But otherwise there are very few signs that this is even run through either of those signals, Its really cool to see, I love Laserdisc, and would love to see you run this with the Phantom Menace, just to see how well it would upscale.
Maybe I will give it a spin.
@5minutesofretro Oh wow, Thanks
I realize this is an Older Video but thank you for taking the time to not only read and reply to my comment.
Guessing no 3/2 pulldown? How’s the comb filter on composite? Feels like it’s more suitable for retro gamers. I suppose the addition of scan lines is a matter of taste and personal preference. But back in the day of projecting LD on CRT projectors, scan lines were the one thing we DIDNT want to see. An interesting product that could gain some traction if it was geared to also include an effective pulldown solution for film based content on video. This is the first I’ve heard of this product… so I guess I’ll take a deeper look. But I can’t see any reason to retire the Lumagen just yet.
It has both 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown. You can also add 23 and 24 Hz output if you add custom mode lines. I haven't tried that yet but that's the answer I got straight from Mike Chi
The deinterlacing options are extensive. Including the regular ones as well as motion adaptive and even CRT emulation which works with the scanline emulation to produce a very authentic CRT experience
I know exactly what you mean in terms of scanlines back in the day hen projecting. ;-)
I think it's a little bit different now as we have way better options in terms of clarity and definition with 4K UHD releases etc, so when I now watch Laserdisc on the big screen, with admittedly much lower resolution the "fake" scanlines adds a pleasing patina to the image. I prefer it over watching without it. Again, when projecting these old formats up on my 100". ;-)
Nice tip.
Nice. Well then I may give it a go. Worst case scenario is that it can be sold if it’s not for me.
Nice Video 👍. I'm going to recommend you turn on the 7.5 IRE in the SDP settings next time you use the tink4k to watch movie content. It's a raised black level that was used for NTSC TVs and it's not on by default since the only game console that followed it was the original Xbox in 480i.
True, but there are significant variations between Japanese and US NTSC releases and some benefit greatly from 7.5 IRE, while others do not. Thank goodness for multiple profile setups.
@@5minutesofretro yeah, no. screwed up master, maybe. but 7.5 was the standard they should have followed and the disc should put out. test laser discs were available for calibration.
Arnold asked his accent back!
Great Video
The scanlines aren't going to look good on here due to the compression UA-cam uses. I would also suggest using Bob (Bob deinterlace) since the default is set to"Motion Adaptive", but you are still getting combing artifacts on edges. Bob will completely eliminate it.
Nize!
I don't like the interlace that show up. Does this device have a deinterlace option?
It has. Will show more of these options later. Works well too.
Betamax and Laser Disc And Scart and HDMI and 4K Video 01|01|1950 - 31|12|2050
Hmm, I get that you're after the "look", as if you were playing SD sources on a HD CRT. But that's way too many scanlines for a faithful playback of analog video formats. To really trick your eyes into seeing more detail than is really there, like the real CRT does, and to get rid of jaggies/shimmering on very detailed releases, you really need to match the scanlines to the actual vertical resolution (240p or 480p after deinterlacing). I would love to see what the laserdiscs and the betas look like that way (my guess: amazing!), and as a bonus it will survive youtube compression *much* better.
It's an ongoing process of setting up different profiles (in the Retrotink) for different types of outputs yes.
@@5minutesofretro hahaha I get you, unlimited power has its limitations
I was wondering if the LD could be upscaled to 1080p. looks like u jus went from 480i to 560i which is a very small improvement.. But what about watching them on a flat screen TV of today. Most Ppl or any hav a old tube TV.. Great vid...
No, this upscaled to 1080P in the video. The whole idea of this is to scale it up to 1080 or 2160.
Se disdrutan mas que en los antiguos CRT. Tengo un sony triniton panorámico de 16 pulgadas y se ven de lujo
While I’m all for scanlines on video games in 240p, i find that movies, to be close to original would be the film look so no scanlines at all. On the video it looked like that the scan line generation also introduced interlacing artefacts on the motion. Will the Retrotink 4K actually improve a laserdisc image or is it the old saying crap in crap out?
I don't think any scaler actually improves a laserdisc image. You can't enhance what's not there. As I say in the video, I prefer and do watch my laserdiscs on a CRT, that's the absolute best way. There are times though, when I do want to watch them on a bigger screen, for different reasons and for those times I want the image to the best I can get it, as close to a CRT as possible. That's it, nothing more.
The interlacing artifacts you're seeing are due to incorrect deinterlacer/scanline settings in the video. It's set to use the weave deinterlacer with post-deinterlacing scanlines, resulting in combing artifacts and 480p scanlines. For better results you'll want motion adaptive deinterlacing (maybe with the edge adaptive option, not sure how well that works on video content) with scanlines on top (which would be 480p-style), or you'll want CRT simulate scanlines (which uses bobbing 480i scanlines to do the deinterlacing and simulates how a CRT does it, hence the name).
Wait the minute, you have Betamax PAL VCR, but the rEtrolink only has 480p options, does it support 576 too?
yes it support 576i/p PAL-B and PAL-N idk about PAL-M-H-G-K
@@sos.gamers Interesting, I will have to consider this device.
Hard to tell from your video but it appeared you were using non-integer scaling whilst also using scanlines, this will of course cause uneven lines/ non-uniform clustering. If thats the case (again, I couldnt tell), Id suggest trying integer scaling as that will look much better.
Total noob but been thinking about digitizing a few VHS's, would a scaler like the retrotink (5x or 4k) be a good idea or just capture the signal directly from vhs via either composite or (if the vhs has it) RGB from the scart?
would appreciate any input you may have.
Both the 5x and 4K would be great at this. RGB from Scart would probably be best. No hard rules with these things. You must play with the settings and find out what works best for you.
Is that the Howling? Just watched it last week :)
It is. I have a video about that right here on the channel too. :)
Amazing device. Does it support video game consoles? If I hook it up with a concole like Sega Genesis, what kind of picture quality and input lag should we expect?
That's what it's made for and it can take absolutely everything in terms of old formats. Check out their website.
It's actually primarily designed for retro game consoles, stuff like laserdisc is just a bonus. Essentially zero input lag (a few milliseconds, a fraction of one frame), and you can get quite good picture quality with a good RGB or YPbPr cable for the Genesis.
Of course the quality of the consoles depends on the quality of the output. Composite video from a Genesis look pretty terrible, while RGB looks pretty good. But for other consoles there's not as big a difference, and for some consoles like the NES you really need to install a mod to get good video quality out of them.
I’m more curious about a Muse disc played on a good OLED.
And I just can’t go back to butchered full screen beta or VHS no matter how nostalgic.
Hello can u test VHS and without scanlines check all deinterlacing abilities? (I can't find how this device fight deinterlacing on non consoles video) thanks!
I have tested on VHS and it looks good to me. I might post more in a later video.
@@5minutesofretro yep, looking to motion adaptive way that gen 50/60p from 50/60i instead 25/30 and that without combing artifacts 😹 also curious about how does CRT emulated grid shaders will look on video footage there also no tests except games 🤗
Which edition of Legend is that? The theatrical cut released in north america is vastly different from the cut released elsewhere, even the score was changed. Neither is as full and complete as what is now labeled as the Director's Cut on dvd and bluray.
In the US, Legend was never released in widescreen until dvd but some PAL international cut LDs were letterboxed.
This is release 40193. It's not letterboxed, but it has the Tangerine Dream soundtrack. As a collector I have this. It served a purpose for this video.
@5minutesofretro Tangerine Dream score means it's the North American version distributed by Universal.
The first time that version got a widescreen release was the 2002 dvd, which also was the first time the recently rediscovered director's cut was made available.
I like both scores, but I prefer Goldsmith's score.
@@5minutesofretro I prefer the director's cut which has the Goldsmith score. However I have not seen the theatrical version (outside of north america) that had the Goldsmith score retained.
I notice a lot of combing artifacts
The RT4K in the video was set to use a weave deinterlacer, it has better options like a motion adaptive deinterlacer.
Would be nice to hear more on the audio output side. When sending Dts or Ac3 in from the Ld player what format does the retrotink 4k spit it out as? Is it coverted to multi-channel pcm or is it simply passthrough to bitstream for av receivers?
Yes, I run the AC3 out of the LD and optically into the Retrotink. It then comes out the HDMI and is picked up as such in my AV receiver. Works without any fuzz. Same for DTS.
Block Busters and Net Flix Hybrid Audio Video Library 01|01|1950 - 31|12|2050
Thank you for this vid! I was curious if you have tried your 4k blu rays with the Retrotinks BFI features. I have heard it helps make the picture look more like traditional film with good grain. Would love to see a video about that!
You have to wait a while for that video. There is no 4K input on the Retrotink 4K. It can only handle a 1080p60 input tops.
Yes, I know the tink will down res the 4k picture to 1080p, but I love the motion resolution/clarity of BFI so I’m curious if it’s worth the trade-off for home theater.
I'd deinterlace the picture too, just because interlaced stuff is just shite.
I think it has its charm.
@5minutesofretro that's the first time I've ever seen anyone be nice about interlaced video. It's just not for me personally.
It reminds me of past times and that's always magical. Even the interlaced past. ;-)
You're using composite cables. I don't think you'll get the best picture quality through that
Laserdisc players have no other out than composite (Y/C) or sometimes RGB out the Scart. The internals of the Laserdisc player varies a lot too so no definitive answer here. You just have to try out what's working the best.
What happened to synths!!!!
What about them?
I think you are not using even 1% of the capabilities, you could use mask, deinterlace, set the pixel structure before and after and so on
Sure, it's an ongoing process and I've done that too. It's all a matter of how it looks here on my screen in real life. UA-cam can only show so much.
It looks like an interesting device, but contrary to their claims it's output is not 4K.
I looked up the Retrotink 4K user manual. They're lying about it having 4K output. It says "Default resolution and framerate for 4k displays, aka 3840x2160p."
That's not 4K, it's UHD. 4K is 4096 x 2160. The difference isn't great, but it's still there.
I'm sick of companies claiming to have 4K, but it's actually UHD. So-called "4K UHD" discs are UHD. Most 4K TVs (including mine) are actually UHD. UA-cam claims to have 4K videos, but they're also actually UHD.
Just like an electric "car". That's not a car, it's an electric vehicle.
Rather than downloading a 4K copy of the movie for free from Pahe, I'll just pull out an SD Laserdisc copy that I should have sold on eBay 20 years ago and upscale it AND ADD SCANLINES (LOL!) to make it look at least 2000 times worse. What is wrong with people? The world makes things MUCH better for them, like CDs instead of vinyl, and a small minority of asshats cling on to the obsolete because it's cool, or something. Sheesh!
Define "better". To you a Prius is "better" than a 69 Ford Mustang because it is newer, but to some of us joy and nostalgia is worth living for.
UHD Blu-ray, Blu-ray, streaming and even DVD all are better than Laser Disc. That's not subjective but just plain fact. No point in bringing up classic cars as that comparison holds no water.
So your argumentation is basically the pixel count defines quality. Ok man. Whatever you say. :P
Why would you want scanlines on a projector? Looks awful.
And deinterlace it too, the video doesn't do the Retrotink justice.
Scanlines for video? Why? Scanlines are too distracting and hide details from the picture. They are meant for old 8-16-32 bit videogames with low resolution; not video. We didn't see scanlines when watching analog video back in the '80s-'90s because the difference between those video formats and the CRT TV resolution is not enough big to show scanlines.
Sorry, but Retrotink 4K is not the ultimate scaler for LaserDisc. In this video I can see a lot of pixelation, ghosting and digital artifacts. I prefer to use a 480i CRT TV for 480i content.
I do watch the majority of my Laserdiscs on my Sony Trinitron CRT, but occasionally I watch them on modern displays/projectors and the Retrotink is awesome.
Why the fuck would one want to add those ridiculous scanline effects? It's not going to trick you into believing you watch a CRT and it does not even come close to looking half like it anyway.
No need to swear here. Some of us like that look on the big screen.
Clearly you haven't seen the full extent of the Tink 4K's ability, Hellion.
Is buying a 4k disc so repulsive? Even bluray looks better.
It's not about what looks "better". It's about an interest or hobby. Passion for some of us.
I have a 4k setup i like too, but that's not a passion.
It is if the 4k disc is full of dnr, 'color correction', added digital grain, nearfield surround mixes.
Like a VHS tape is better? Get real.
@@michaelbradley7595 oops, I had Laserdisc in mind.
To each it's own I guess. I get it if you would apply this to older games but video's? That's insanity to me. As a lover of cinema I want the best quality possible or at least the most affordable best quality. To add scanlines for a nostalgic feeling is something I don't understand. I mean, I understand being nostalgic about older media and how you play them but not if can get better versions at home through Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray discs.
Laserdisc almost always have the original color grading and original stereo theatrical mix. As well as (again, almost always) the original cuts with no digital alterations censorship or other manipulations. The love of this is the true sign of a movie lover, not necessarily the love of resolution. That can always be improved on.
TVS AV ou HDMI ruim porblemo jogos coisas LED HDR UHD LCD SDR feios pior Composite FAIL Ruin só fraco difícil feios viu não gosto 👎 (cego on)
TVS RGB PASS Off AV bem verdade rápido ganhar Jogos AV Luz limpar ótimo limpar RGB CRT até gosto bonitos muito Super Nintendo AV 240p👌CRT👌 limpar só Off ganhar 4.3 é 16.9 deixar 👌😘👍
$750 pior roubar Retro Tink 4k🤦♂️😡
R$3.500.00 🙎♂️🤦♂️😡
AV2HDMI bem Ruin composite pior
ON cego pablema R$45.00 até
Retro Scaler 2x On limpar bem 😂 AV ou HDMI R$100.00
😂Scaler 2x😂
It look TERRIBLE!