Having this dyno is a total game changer. No longer must you navigate through the ambiguous NM ratings of different e bike companies or, wonder how much power a particular bike is producing. Your gonna start a trend.
Loved the testing, and it's fun to know the power "at the road". Fun story concerning the BBSHD: I came across a group ride in a park and they invited me along. Turns out the lead was owner of a company that made mid drive e-bikes, and the bikes were all from his company. We made a restroom stop, and instead of taking the winding path back to the main trail, I powered up a steep berm as a shortcut. None of the mid drives could make it, and I was 'uninvited' from future rides with them 😂
The limited shift range of 1× drivetrains, doesn't do the lower HP per Wh of those geared mid-motors, any favors. They really only shine in wasting a _bit_ less power near top speed.
@@prophetzarquon Odd. The last 2 mid drivers i rode with burned up trying to keep up with my 52v 30a mid drive BBSHD at half speed. They get too hot on long climbs. Unless you are doing apples to oranges? Is your hub drive a 3000w 72v?
@@bobbyg3333 Um. I _said_ top speed; climbs are not top speed. At low speeds, a _gearless_ hub motor has significant mechanical advantage over geared hub _or_ mid motors, & a geared hub motor, despite being reduced for extra low-speed torque, can usually reach a high enough RPM, to approach the highest flatland speeds attainable from their Wattage supply anyway. The handling of a lightweight full-suspension ebike, benefits significantly from moving the motor's weight inboard with a mid-motor, & a mid-motor's higher final gear can allow it to hold moderate to high (bicycle) speeds with higher efficiency ange, than a single-speed hub motor, which would have to max its RPM for that... but unless cruising at minimal load near max speed (or bouncing around), a hub motor delivers more speed & mileage per Watt. Mid-motors can achieve greater efficiency in some conditions, but mostly they're about ride quality. Hub motors rule the hill climb & there's no apparent reason that would ever change.
I would love to see a Wired Freedom or Cruiser bike on that Dyno! I have the Cruiser and it pulls real hard compared to other bikes I have ridden. Be cool to see that in numbers on your board. Very cool what your doing with this Dyno man, good stuff!
I would like to request a dy6no test for some future vide3o. If I remember correctly t5he Blackbird is delivered with tubes in the tires but its rims and tires are rated for tubeless use. So Id like to see the sam e Blackbird retested using the same wheel and tire as before but in the other tube mode. To see the difference in power, if any
In the market for a bike but I am glad to see you got the Dino up and running .I remember when you picked it up know this is where it will count on what to buy looks of the bike ect. But I was thinking about the draining of the battery if they where charged up all the way and they all went through the Dino at the same time to see which battery is made stronger showing a voltage check on them. Would help-beginning to end . Love your show, keep up the good work. 👍
I'm loving my BBSHD with a 52V 20Ah battery, 42 Lekkie and 16 T single speed, rigid fork and hard tail 29" XC. I've been up to 64Km/H, about 1000W with throttle on 7. I have my system limited to 60Km/h only because my rims are whisper thin and I want to lose just a few more pounds. Then maybe after that, I'll unlock the max speed with throttle to 90Km/h. But until then, I've found the perfect DH bike to convert to a hybrid dirtbike; a 2005 Kona Stinky that's already been upgraded to the max. This will be a fun bike.
I think the data you are capturing is invaluable, and I hope you publish everything. You are spot on about the gearing for these mid drives, it would be amazing to capture the gear ratios against the power curves. Often the stock gearing is not low enough.
The closer an electric motor runs to its peak design RPM the less torque it will produce, thus you can still see RPM and POWER increases after torque starts to fall off. Most electric motors will have peak power, peak torque, and peak current that fall more or less at the same RPM or within a narrow range, however the microprocessor/software controlled motor controllers can alter things. They might have voltage or current limiting - even on an unlocked controller they probably still have some kind of current limit to protect the electronics from overheating. I'd like to see a Lunacycle X-2 Ludicrous test if you can swing one. If I was in your area I'd definitely offer mine for use.
I love my Bafang 750. I recently pulled it off and shelved it for a while. Looking for a new bike to put it on. One thing to note: when dynoing a car, we typically do as close to a 1:1 gear ratio as we can. Not sure how this would translate to running bikes on a dyno. Just something to think about. I love seeing that you own this, its going to make for some awesome content! Once you get the dyno all figured out, you should offer test and tune's for people and their ebikes just like the speeds shops do with cars :) Extra income, can film more content and everyone wins!
I'd love to see you test a random cheap-ish 350 or 500w hub motor bike for comparison against the fancy ones. It would also be cool if you could start monitoring current draw on these.
This is an electric moped. I remember in the early 80s how we tweaked mopeds and raced them. They were supposed to generate 1.5 to 2KW unmodified. We did not have benches like that, we’d just measure max speed by tweaking gearing. There was a lot of tuning possible, from injection to exhaust to compression to fuels, and more. Good learning for us 14-15 years old kids.
If your keeping track of suggestions I add my vote to the Hall effect transducer to get current. It would be interesting to see if the controllers really put out the current their rated for. I suspect their variants could account for the varying TQ and power numbers you see even with different rated motors.
Nice job! I'd like to see the real time voltage of the battery during the test. Well her to see what it was at the start of the test, and the drop during each run.
Hey Kyle, very interesting info not found anywhere else! Also, you're really looking good with the lost weight, hope that means your health has improved as well, whatever you're doing is obviously working, all the best to you.
Thank you for all you do for the E-bike mobility movement Can you use metric as that makes it easy to compare with the rest of the ebikes that quote Nm ,mm and kph I think dyno runs are meant to be run as close to 1 to 1 gearing as possible
You really need to get more bikes tested on the dyno. This is so useful, its insane. Specially those bikes with Bosch 250w mid drive motors with 95nm torque claims. I am pretty sure that 95nm torque is true but not the wattage.
A bit late but the Bosch CX performance motor has up to 973w and the torque of 95N.m is measured at the drive shaft, not at the wheel. If you know the sprocket size you could calculate it for different sized wheels. The BBSHD is rated with 160N.m at the drive shaft ..
press the drum brake on the dyno... more resistance to get the maximum torque reading. drag the dyno brake slowly applying more resistance and watch your ft-lbs. Once Your RPM's rise the torque will deminish because You have overcome the resistance.🇺🇸👍
Thanks for that, I have got my bbshd configured so that I get maximum range. At he expense of speed and torque, but one day I may go for it and chase the motor bikes.
Hey Kyle! I found this review very interesting, as I own a Foxbat. My questions though are: which peddle assist did you use (I’m assuming PAS-5), did you unlock the motor before these tests, or is this one tested as stick from the factory? Also, the battery life bothers me here, as with every run, you lose a bit of battery. Wouldn’t it be better to have a setup from the grid to a constant source of energy? No current drop would mean a more linear curve. A plug-in from a constant power source directly to the test bike without a battery inline would help establish a constant testing pattern for all bikes, along with my other suggestion below. You keep saying there is no loss from friction or other aerodynamic problems with this setup. I come from a dirt bike racing life, and we learned early on that knobby tires definitely do hamper top end since they are a series of small “air dams” as the rear wheel turns. A smooth tire on the driven wheel would most certainly achieve a more constant, higher power curve. Maybe a single brand of tire/tread pattern used on each test bike would provide a constant platform to review and compare with others. Optimally, a slick tire would provide their least wind resistance. Knobbies, no matter how tall or short the knobs are, definitely cause aerodynamic problems. Since it’s impossible to test in a vacuum, setting parameters equal to each test bike would definitely help. It’s just a thought…. Sorry I got so long-winded here.
1. Stock bike, no modifications 2. Battery - If I was trying to do a test specific to the motor and wanted to eliminate battery variables, yes you would be correct. But I want real numbers at the wheel the way the bikes come. 3. By aero I mean drag from forward movement, but yes there is absolutely drag from the tire. I think tire testing will be it's own subject.
I'd hope bafang rates it at a sustained power rating as opposed to peak. Peak is good to know, but is hugely affected by battery voltage and current capacity of the battery and controller. Obviously you can push a lot more power thru the motor for a second or two than you could push for several minutes or even an hour. And that doesn't even consider what the gears in the motor can (or cannot) handle. Little nylon gears? Treat them gently... FRP can take more and metal can take a lot if designed correctly.
I haven't even seen a Bafang motor+controller get more than _slightly_ warm, after running at maximum output long enough to get battery voltage sag. Notably, Bafang motors get hotter at low voltage + high amps; much worse efficiency, than at high voltage!
Really enjoyed watching the procurement of your Dino and following it through to your testing, do you think you'll be doing anything with the lower grade bikes particularly like the Walmart brand Concord bikes of that nature or are you going to be strictly staying on the upper end?
Add a jumper that will allow a hall current sensor and a volt meter to show battery performance. You show watts delivered through the back wheel, but not efficiency which translates to range. This could help someone determine the best gear and speed for going up the mountain. Work delivered is a big deal. Pushing the bike up the grade is no fun. Getting there trumps speed.
Hey mam the volume is super low,just wanted to lyk just incase that's something u might beable to change even tho it's uploaded already? Love ur video man!
At least with a mid Drive it would be good to know what gear you are in and number of gear teeth front and back for that reading. Gear 1 should be your highest Torque with a Mid Drive.
Not necessarily highest power, though (unlikely, in fact); highest power output will be where there's least inefficiency: near the middle gears where the chain is most straight (or the hub shifter isn't reducing/multiplying).
Peak power when the losses in transmissen are the lowest, what is loss at normal ride higher or lower speed revs on pedaling, or average loss at range 15 to 45km/h. High revs at
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Having this dyno is a total game changer. No longer must you navigate through the ambiguous NM ratings of different e bike companies or, wonder how much power a particular bike is producing. Your gonna start a trend.
Loved the testing, and it's fun to know the power "at the road". Fun story concerning the BBSHD: I came across a group ride in a park and they invited me along. Turns out the lead was owner of a company that made mid drive e-bikes, and the bikes were all from his company. We made a restroom stop, and instead of taking the winding path back to the main trail, I powered up a steep berm as a shortcut. None of the mid drives could make it, and I was 'uninvited' from future rides with them 😂
The limited shift range of 1× drivetrains, doesn't do the lower HP per Wh of those geared mid-motors, any favors. They really only shine in wasting a _bit_ less power near top speed.
@@prophetzarquon Odd. The last 2 mid drivers i rode with burned up trying to keep up with my 52v 30a mid drive BBSHD at half speed. They get too hot on long climbs. Unless you are doing apples to oranges? Is your hub drive a 3000w 72v?
@@bobbyg3333 Um. I _said_ top speed; climbs are not top speed. At low speeds, a _gearless_ hub motor has significant mechanical advantage over geared hub _or_ mid motors, & a geared hub motor, despite being reduced for extra low-speed torque, can usually reach a high enough RPM, to approach the highest flatland speeds attainable from their Wattage supply anyway.
The handling of a lightweight full-suspension ebike, benefits significantly from moving the motor's weight inboard with a mid-motor, & a mid-motor's higher final gear can allow it to hold moderate to high (bicycle) speeds with higher efficiency
ange, than a single-speed hub motor, which would have to max its RPM for that... but unless cruising at minimal load near max speed (or bouncing around), a hub motor delivers more speed & mileage per Watt.
Mid-motors can achieve greater efficiency in some conditions, but mostly they're about ride quality.
Hub motors rule the hill climb & there's no apparent reason that would ever change.
That Dyno has really added a lot of depth to your channel. I don’t think anyone else is doing what you’re doing. Bravo!!!
Bravo to him indeed
Pioneering the future of bicycle shops and UA-cam creators!
Kudos!
There should be a special award plaque for this
I would love to see a Wired Freedom or Cruiser bike on that Dyno! I have the Cruiser and it pulls real hard compared to other bikes I have ridden. Be cool to see that in numbers on your board. Very cool what your doing with this Dyno man, good stuff!
I'd like to see one of those 72v 5kw kits on here.
I'd love to see you test the 2024 Wired Freedom. It's advertised as having a 1500w motor with 2200w peak and 138nm of torque.
I would like to request a dy6no test for some future vide3o. If I remember correctly t5he Blackbird is delivered with tubes in the tires but its rims and tires are rated for tubeless use. So Id like to see the sam e Blackbird retested using the same wheel and tire as before but in the other tube mode. To see the difference in power, if any
In the market for a bike but I am glad to see you got the Dino up and running .I remember when you picked it up know this is where it will count on what to buy looks of the bike ect. But I was thinking about the draining of the battery if they where charged up all the way and they all went through the Dino at the same time to see which battery is made stronger showing a voltage check on them. Would help-beginning to end . Love your show, keep up the good work. 👍
I'm loving my BBSHD with a 52V 20Ah battery, 42 Lekkie and 16 T single speed, rigid fork and hard tail 29" XC. I've been up to 64Km/H, about 1000W with throttle on 7. I have my system limited to 60Km/h only because my rims are whisper thin and I want to lose just a few more pounds. Then maybe after that, I'll unlock the max speed with throttle to 90Km/h.
But until then, I've found the perfect DH bike to convert to a hybrid dirtbike; a 2005 Kona Stinky that's already been upgraded to the max.
This will be a fun bike.
I think the data you are capturing is invaluable, and I hope you publish everything.
You are spot on about the gearing for these mid drives, it would be amazing to capture the gear ratios against the power curves.
Often the stock gearing is not low enough.
Or, in the case of the m620, geared too _low._
The closer an electric motor runs to its peak design RPM the less torque it will produce, thus you can still see RPM and POWER increases after torque starts to fall off. Most electric motors will have peak power, peak torque, and peak current that fall more or less at the same RPM or within a narrow range, however the microprocessor/software controlled motor controllers can alter things. They might have voltage or current limiting - even on an unlocked controller they probably still have some kind of current limit to protect the electronics from overheating.
I'd like to see a Lunacycle X-2 Ludicrous test if you can swing one. If I was in your area I'd definitely offer mine for use.
Can't wait for the Wired 60V if you ever test it.
I love my Bafang 750. I recently pulled it off and shelved it for a while. Looking for a new bike to put it on. One thing to note: when dynoing a car, we typically do as close to a 1:1 gear ratio as we can. Not sure how this would translate to running bikes on a dyno. Just something to think about. I love seeing that you own this, its going to make for some awesome content! Once you get the dyno all figured out, you should offer test and tune's for people and their ebikes just like the speeds shops do with cars :) Extra income, can film more content and everyone wins!
I'd love to see you test a random cheap-ish 350 or 500w hub motor bike for comparison against the fancy ones. It would also be cool if you could start monitoring current draw on these.
This is an electric moped.
I remember in the early 80s how we tweaked mopeds and raced them. They were supposed to generate 1.5 to 2KW unmodified. We did not have benches like that, we’d just measure max speed by tweaking gearing.
There was a lot of tuning possible, from injection to exhaust to compression to fuels, and more. Good learning for us 14-15 years old kids.
💯 It is totally a moped.
If your keeping track of suggestions I add my vote to the Hall effect transducer to get current. It would be interesting to see if the controllers really put out the current their rated for. I suspect their variants could account for the varying TQ and power numbers you see even with different rated motors.
You channel is gonna Explode, dude!🎉🎉🎉🎉 🎉 Geeks luv them some data! And hoping your health is good too.
Wish my nephew was more like you and could look at equations... instead he went to Georgetown law school and now I can't talk to him
I’ve been watching your videos for YEARS now!🎉😂 You still manage to teach me something new, that nobody else has a clue about. THANKS 🙏 KYLE😮😂🎉
This is the best resource on UA-cam right now for real life performance analysis.
Nice job! I'd like to see the real time voltage of the battery during the test. Well her to see what it was at the start of the test, and the drop during each run.
Hey Kyle, very interesting info not found anywhere else! Also, you're really looking good with the lost weight, hope that means your health has improved as well, whatever you're doing is obviously working, all the best to you.
Thanks for this useful and super cool addition to the ebike world!!
Like to see what kinda numbers my BBSHD Mongoose Mack Mag w/ ASI 855 modified controller running 72 volts would put out
That would be a pretty powerful setup! Certainly a lot more than this.
Thank you for all you do for the E-bike mobility movement
Can you use metric as that makes it easy to compare with the rest of the ebikes that quote Nm ,mm and kph
I think dyno runs are meant to be run as close to 1 to 1 gearing as possible
Ft lbs to NM is a simple conversion. In the charts on the site I added NM as well.
You really need to get more bikes tested on the dyno. This is so useful, its insane. Specially those bikes with Bosch 250w mid drive motors with 95nm torque claims. I am pretty sure that 95nm torque is true but not the wattage.
A bit late but the Bosch CX performance motor has up to 973w and the torque of 95N.m is measured at the drive shaft, not at the wheel. If you know the sprocket size you could calculate it for different sized wheels. The BBSHD is rated with 160N.m at the drive shaft ..
press the drum brake on the dyno... more resistance to get the maximum torque reading. drag the dyno brake slowly applying more resistance and watch your ft-lbs.
Once Your RPM's rise the torque will deminish because You have overcome the resistance.🇺🇸👍
The inertia dyno calculates torque by the acceleration rate of the drum. So slowing it down would read a negative torque figure.
Way to Go! Please test a Himiway Zebra….😊
Thanks for that, I have got my bbshd configured so that I get maximum range.
At he expense of speed and torque, but one day I may go for it and chase the motor bikes.
Hey Kyle! I found this review very interesting, as I own a Foxbat. My questions though are: which peddle assist did you use (I’m assuming PAS-5), did you unlock the motor before these tests, or is this one tested as stick from the factory? Also, the battery life bothers me here, as with every run, you lose a bit of battery. Wouldn’t it be better to have a setup from the grid to a constant source of energy? No current drop would mean a more linear curve. A plug-in from a constant power source directly to the test bike without a battery inline would help establish a constant testing pattern for all bikes, along with my other suggestion below.
You keep saying there is no loss from friction or other aerodynamic problems with this setup. I come from a dirt bike racing life, and we learned early on that knobby tires definitely do hamper top end since they are a series of small “air dams” as the rear wheel turns. A smooth tire on the driven wheel would most certainly achieve a more constant, higher power curve. Maybe a single brand of tire/tread pattern used on each test bike would provide a constant platform to review and compare with others. Optimally, a slick tire would provide their least wind resistance. Knobbies, no matter how tall or short the knobs are, definitely cause aerodynamic problems. Since it’s impossible to test in a vacuum, setting parameters equal to each test bike would definitely help. It’s just a thought…. Sorry I got so long-winded here.
1. Stock bike, no modifications
2. Battery - If I was trying to do a test specific to the motor and wanted to eliminate battery variables, yes you would be correct. But I want real numbers at the wheel the way the bikes come.
3. By aero I mean drag from forward movement, but yes there is absolutely drag from the tire. I think tire testing will be it's own subject.
Well I guess the 2nd bike was mid drive! I guess I spoke too soon! I cant watch these videos fast enough. Love it.
I'd hope bafang rates it at a sustained power rating as opposed to peak. Peak is good to know, but is hugely affected by battery voltage and current capacity of the battery and controller. Obviously you can push a lot more power thru the motor for a second or two than you could push for several minutes or even an hour. And that doesn't even consider what the gears in the motor can (or cannot) handle. Little nylon gears? Treat them gently... FRP can take more and metal can take a lot if designed correctly.
I haven't even seen a Bafang motor+controller get more than _slightly_ warm, after running at maximum output long enough to get battery voltage sag. Notably, Bafang motors get hotter at low voltage + high amps; much worse efficiency, than at high voltage!
Really enjoyed watching the procurement of your Dino and following it through to your testing, do you think you'll be doing anything with the lower grade bikes particularly like the Walmart brand Concord bikes of that nature or are you going to be strictly staying on the upper end?
I'd love to see results of the high end bikes like the R22 Everest
Add a jumper that will allow a hall current sensor and a volt meter to show battery performance. You show watts delivered through the back wheel, but not efficiency which translates to range. This could help someone determine the best gear and speed for going up the mountain. Work delivered is a big deal. Pushing the bike up the grade is no fun. Getting there trumps speed.
Efficiency tests are certainly on the list! Each bike unfortunately is wired differently, so it's a process to figure that out each time.
Would it make a difference if you locked out the front suspension?
i know everyone is saying this but, where is the wattmeter and the phase current?
A bit more complicated to do for every bike, but something I am thinking about.
You should insert the Six Million Dollar Man music when you spool up the motor.
Hey mam the volume is super low,just wanted to lyk just incase that's something u might beable to change even tho it's uploaded already? Love ur video man!
Unfortunately not, I'll look into it.
746 Watts = 1 horse Power
& only a hub motor will put most of that to the ground; a mid-motor has drivetrain losses to deal with.
You gotta run a Rad Power. Let’s see the truth.
At least with a mid Drive it would be good to know what gear you are in and number of gear teeth front and back for that reading. Gear 1 should be your highest Torque with a Mid Drive.
Not necessarily highest power, though (unlikely, in fact); highest power output will be where there's least inefficiency: near the middle gears where the chain is most straight (or the hub shifter isn't reducing/multiplying).
What is the maxspeed on a road with that bike
Realistically about 35mph on fat tires.
Can you control for battery fade?
I can certainly retest at various battery voltages to see the drop in performance.
If the chain snaps it would shred your right calf.
I think you are going into areas that nobody has even thought to go. I think you may change some bike manufacturers.
Very interesting.. 👍
dont forget a cooling option like a fan next time!! motor could overheat this way..
If these short runs cause overheating then they have other problems.
Now just need a wind tunnel to simulate real world conditions.
What about these motors that claim 160nm of torque. Where does someone see torque that high?
Right before the chain snaps
Dyno is great. you could devote a channel to it
Please test a pro bicyclists and novice so we know human power.
Peak power when the losses in transmissen are the lowest, what is loss at normal ride higher or lower speed revs on pedaling, or average loss at range 15 to 45km/h.
High revs at