Why New York Is Filled With Empty Plazas - Cheddar Explains
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2022
- New York City is home to more than 590 plazas or privately-owned public spaces. These spaces could be centers of culture and conversation like Piazza del Campo in Siena or Trafalgar Square in London. But most of them look empty and lifeless. Why? Well, they weren’t really designed for us anyway.
Further reading:
NYC.gov
www1.nyc.gov/site/planning/pl...
Curbed
ny.curbed.com/2019/7/25/20707...
NYTimes
www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/ny...
Forbes
www.elegran.com/blog/2016/07/...
Untapped Cities
untappedcities.com/2011/12/07...
The Skyscraper Museum
old.skyscraper.org/zoning/
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In most other American cities instead of "public" plazas you get surface parking lots.
Fair
True.
Above ground parking lots shouldn’t exist in cities. Change my mind
@@Ryan-cb1ei what about multi level parking that sticks above ground?
Even in New York City, you still have a lot. An article from 2019 said there are 12 central parks worth of surface parking.
I've never been to NYC and can't speak from direct experience there, but personally I'm much more likely to sit in and enjoy an outdoor public space if it DOES have restaurants, coffee shops, bars, ice cream/snacks, book stores, etc adjacent to it -- shops/storefronts in general, but not like hard core shopping/retail ones. Ones that encourage snacking/eating/socializing or the kind of slow, leisurely, aimless browsing of a book or music store.
Would be nice, most of these places are policed heavy to keep out people only hanging out and not necessarily buying anything.
German cities have many public places - like market squares or small parks - that are often encircled by cafés, restaurants, bookstores and other small businesses. They're really nice places to meet and hang out with friends on a sunny day.
The key to that is to make sure those places really are publicly owned.
I think what the video is saying is that these stores are not adjacent to the public space, they are IN and instead of the public space.
yea have small shops, cafes and restaurants around it, and allow them to spill out in to the plaza a certain distance, not take it all up though. Leave some open areas of garden/ornamental areas and seating.
Totally opposite for me. I want quiet, forgotten corners/
Once you've seen a shopping plaza, you've seen the mall
It's not a shopping plaza or a mall it's Manhattan. I live in Chelsea.
Bada bing
@@SicilianStealth wow, you’re boring.
@@jarraandyftm Incredible you're menopausal.
@@SicilianStealth jesus, even more boring than I originally thought.
The plaza in front of the Seagrams building is regularly used for noon concerts by a variety of ensembles. Also, many people sit around the edges enjoying their lunch in warm weather. So this space most definitely is used by the public regularly.
I can attest to this. I’ve personally sat there and enjoyed the Park Avenue scenery on many occasions.
Feel Mies got thrown under the bus a little on this with little to no research into his motives for the plaza (which was largely unheard of at the time). Claiming it was to exploit a zoning clause from 1916 is very unfair - if this was the case why had no one else done anything like this prior to Seagram's completion in 1958?
Yeah but there not used like every where else man, you yanks seem to think that's it being used its not.
Did anybody notice that at 2:38 we're looking at the construction of the World Trade Center? But even though public plazas haven't lived up to expectations, I think the real reason people don't use them is too much sunshine and no shade. And the memorial plaza of the new World Trade Center with all its trees may correct that issue with its design. However the big question in my mind (as a former New Yorker) has always been, "What if all that beautiful acreage of Central Park had been spread around Manhattan a little more?" Sort of the way Savannah dotted it's original street grid with squares every few blocks. Might that have eased the skyscraper canyon problem a little?
Central Park is practical as well as ornamental: all of the water space was part of the reservoir system, and the still-existing (though no longer connected) Reservoir was the main terminus of the water supply pipes from upstate. (In fact that's why the park was built.) The open land is critical for avoiding street flooding (even worse flooding) in heavy rain. And personally (without proof) I think that if some of that open space had been scattered a square block at a time here and there, it would have been more likely to be overridden with construction bit by bit. Breaking apart Central Park was a bridge too far, even for Robert Moses and various other developers over the years.
Toobin Plaza at the original World Trade Center fulfilled a pretty good public use role. Granted, it was operated by the Port Authority until it was subject to a 99 year lease from July 2001. And then got destroyed.
It was because they built too much real estate and had trouble renting it. That’s how you get the Port Authority and random federal government agencies including the CIA having some offices there. Pork barrel spending.
@@zeitgeistx5239 As the PA said at the time of the lease: "We are not in the real estate business". Like all government agencies with inherent inefficiencies, Silverstein would probably have made the twin towers work better being a real estate expert.
Was that when "Lucky Larry" took over?
Esa plaza era lo que le seguía de enorme
That shot at 2:33 - love the juxtaposition of how modern those buildings really looked at the time - those 1950s cars next to this clean, straight and sleek glass and steel building
I was just visiting NYC and after watching this video I realized Cafe 53 is likely once of these plazas as it was situated at the base of a building in Midtown. I enjoyed the atmosphere and it was a good place to sit back and relax while enjoying a coffee.
Seagram is my favorite building in all of NYC, a masterpiece in my eyes. I visit every time I am there. The plaza area is beautiful and the original intent was to have people gather, get sun, eat lunch, etc. Other developers thought they were nuts to design it like that.
I think I am the only one reading your comment for real- I looked it up on google and it looks beautiful, peaceful, airy and clean, I hope to visit NY one day. Too bad comments nowadays are fake like these 2 below.
It is, not just beautiful, but pragmatic and not overdone.
I had read once read a contemporary description claiming many citizens were appalled that a structure so prominent should fit into the gothic/deco architecture of the earlier buildings. Crtics made cracks about it being disposable and cheaply designed.
seagram building was a pioneering piece of architecture, but just because it was heavily influential doesn’t make it good…..
Well, you know, they can’t have all that riffraff hanging around. You need to bring your WALLET to enjoy those “public” spaces. 😂
That's why we at Occupy NYC took over Zuccotti Park. We wanted a private "public" space to become an actual public space.
Before or after the Race Congress?
55 Water St is one of my favorite places in the city. The elevated acre is relatively quiet, secluded, and a great view of the east river
Cool! I’m going to NY next week for the first time and have pinned this place to my map with things to visit.
Great place to eat lunch and take in the views
As someone who works in 55 Water St it also can get crazy busy in the summer! It's definitely one of the few examples of a successful POP.
I used to lunch there frequently when I worked in 125 Broad. I miss working Downtown.
Hey that was actually really interesting, thank you for this info and great job on the video! Keep up the good work 😀
In a sense, cities like Raleigh are getting stuff like this. Right now, a lot of it is parking lots and smaller buildings, but many of the new developments feature 5+ story parking decks with a 30-story building on top. The roof of the parking pedestal then becomes a greenery & open space.
It would also be nice to invest in public transportation so less people have to park...
@@jasonremy1627 they are but people refuse to ride it. Public transit is free in Raleigh fwiw
@@GoalHornGeek cool but what are the headways like, and how extensive is the transit network?
@@TessHKM they’re working on that. Across GoTransit system, there’s about 60+ routes originating from Raleigh. They are building a new transit hub right now (current hubs are at capacity). This new hub will open in 2025/26 with new commuter rail routes to Garner, Durham and Fayetteville. There will also be 4 primary BRT corridors by 2030. First one starts construction in March. New hub will allow them to increase to about 150 routes by 2040
If the property is privately owned and maintained, it is private property. Government programs or policies (building regulations etc) have consequences.
places where you’ll get a weird look if you sit there or they’re blocked off/security
How can the first floor of the building count as a plaza? Some of those 1st floors are buildings with foundations that takes up the entire lot.
Have u ever been to Columbus circle? I think it’s ultimately that idea…People can walk into a lot of buildings in NYC considering, n yet it feels as a public space. U just can’t get past the front desk easily lol, but I always like how NYC was set up for that very reason. N some first floors but not most
@@CriscDogs22 the IDS center in Minneapolis has a huge indoor plaza space and it's really cool
Never been to New York, it would appear.
Corruption.
And NYC excels at it... 💁♂️
the plaza in the thumbnail isnt even there anymore lmao
Having shops and cafes on these plazas would be a good thing.
Local government should start dining these building owners if they restrict access to their public spaces. $10k fine per day will change their mind.
Tell 311 about violations 👏
Benches, bathrooms, shaded areas and water fountains. All are incredibly rare when you walk aound the Big Apple. Sure, they attract people. But not just the casual person eating lunch. Sadly, the people who often end up monopolizing such public areas are the homeless. And that is bad for business. So zero effort is made to public comfort. New York is definitely not public friendly.
As a NYC resident this seems a little sensational to me. Yes, these plazas are all over the place but no one is going to stop you from using them in the typical case and in fact many people do use them. I use them all the time to take a break from a walk, eat a quick lunch or chat outside with friends while enjoying the landscaping. One near me even has a farmer's market on Thursdays. Sure, there are some exceptions where developers seem to have made it intentionally feel exclusive but they aren't the norm from what I've seen.
Just to make sure I'm not crazy I did a quick Google Street View around midtown Manhattan looking for some of them and they are typically full of people relaxing on benches. Should we make these plazas more available for activities beyond just sitting or passively socializing? I think not. If they are *too* inviting they'll just end up a mess like other rule-free places in NYC such as the subway stations.
Our main point, one which multiple residential organizations agree with, is that at the end of the day, most of the POPS are under-utilized by the public because they lack incentive for gathering.
@@cheddar new york IS the incentive for gathering!
these little pockets of space amongst the masses of gathered and compressed people are great
My thoughts exactly while I was watching this video. Those spaces are fairly used by the public, at least the ones I visited before, and I’ve never experienced being denied access, for example, or asked to leave if I’m sitting at one of them. Maybe I’ve been lucky, who knows..
@@user-ws1ez8rg8b This is why NYC has been creating more and more pedestrian streets every single year. We need to make our cities more walkable.
This dude really said "you people keep messing up my nice bench"
Sociologist William Whyte produced a nice documentary about improving plazas a few years ago, "Public Spaces People Places". I don't remember it all, but his first recommendation was to give people places to sit !
The new style is to PREVENT people from sitting, and especially lying, anywhere.
@@harlanrosenthal8648 Lakewood NJ recently chopped down the shade trees in its town square to deter the homeless. Sad sign of the times.
My biggest takeaway from visiting NYC was how dirty and stinky it was. It smelled like dumpster and was very grimy in many places. I’ve traveled to several major cities around the world and have never experienced this in any others. It was really off-putting given all the great things to see and do in NYC.
Of the 100 largest cities in the country, it ranks 80th in public restroom access. That's a choice.
Typical American city with some shitty city planning
I’d agree if I were going off of my 2008/2009 trips, but I stayed for a few days in 2021 and was shocked at how much cleaner it became in a decade. I wasn’t getting as many random smells and bursts of stank heat, the streets were actively being cleaned up, the storefronts were cleaner, though they’re clearly having an issue with a lack of retail rent control because the amount of empty storefronts also seemingly doubled. I couldn’t believe how many empty business buildings there were. Kind of spooky tbh
blame our last two mayors
@@SamanthaScarlette Rotflmao! It's worse under Adams.
If I was the NYC zoning official I would immediately work to rezone those areas for coffee, pizza, and cannabis stores/shops. The city would get tax dollars, and the public would have a nice place to sit, have lunch, and leverage some happiness for a short while.
…instead of asking people to leave a comment - you should ask them to make individual complaints against all non compliant spaces !
I hate all the "public spaces" that you can only visit 9-5 on weekdays. Man, I have a job on the weekdays, I can't enjoy these spaces.
In my city, we have some empty plazas/playgrounds that no one goes, so its just a green place in the neighbourhood.
American city isn’t currently for the people…. Shocker
Doesnt matter when politicians are all bought on all sides
Well that dead city you told me I lived in is far from being dead now.
Ironic, right?? Americans have no idea what "for the people" even means, and it's in the damn constitution!
Would have been nice for the video to explain why they are empty! I can think of some reasons but I'm sure someone knowledge in town planning would have some interesting insights for a video
Proves the saying, "build it and they will come" is false. Most of these plazas are blank and sterile. Do any of them even have benches for people to sit? Those shots of European plazas filled with people are because there are shops around them.
I was curious to see this report, and truly happy that I did. Thank you!
The original World Trade Center redefined what a plaza should look like…
Do you known that exists more as one WTC? My favourite is WTC Krung Thep with the nice view to the sky train. But they build it not so high as WTC in Pretoria so that you need to visit the DTAG skyscraper too. But they have a wonderful shopping hall there with good food restaurants.
Thank goodness for people like you who chose to talk about facts and not gossip. And for keeping people like me informed without making a negative statement(s) about the buildings owner's like most people would probably do? job well done
One moment them complaining public plazas are empty, the next moment them complaining the public plazas are filled with diners. So which is which?
They're filled with empty diners! XD
What amenities should the plazas have?
what's wrong with building owners and developers putting in storefronts? Yes they can make money, but stores are an amenity as well. this does not have to be an adversarial relationship
Note: the Lever Building was co-designed by pioneering female skyscraper architect Natalie de Blois.
She had earlier designed Chicago’s Equitable Building. That building, incidentally, also is set back before a plaza (Pioneer Court). However, that choice was in deference to preserving views of the Tribune Tower and creating a genuinely-used public space.
The thumbnail. That's my building. I'm in the Seagrams. Neat!
Gosh, I was far too cynical going into this video thinking "because money" but it is also kinda what it boils down to
Fresh video, Thanks!
It's a brutal compromise; the business got their kick backs while "visitors" have to pay for the rest. It was meant for the public yet the businesses have to nickel and dime what is meant to be free.
Typical, rather than finding a solution, tycoons find a way to make more money. Very likely, those public plazas will be filled with retail big enough to pay the fees, not the average local New Yorker trying to start a business, this once again excludes much of the people NYC, who are already bled dry by the high cost of living.
well... I wonder if big retail is not better then borderline franchise (McDonnald, Star Bucks, Subway, ...) which is still better then straight up money laundry front.
we need rent controlled retail for small businesses that support the community in resources like bodegas and fruit / veggie stores!
That might be case, but surely it's nicer to have some kind of business that attracts people to the area, than nothing. What's the point of an open space if that's all it is? The chances are it's going to be concrete, with little greenery. Sure, we'd all like the little guy to get a chance but in that kind of environment it's unlikely they would prosper.
To be honest, it was the predictable result. If New York wants more harmonious architecture, then that will take work.
Shocking you don’t connect the superfluous zoning regulations and the high cost of living together
"Some are even occupied by restaurants for outdoor seating." So they are being used by people? That sounds a lot better than the ones that aren't being used at all. Unused space in such a space deprived city is the real crime.
What they mean is that instead of these areas being used by the everyday public as an open air relaxation space, they're being cordoned off by businesses, meaning the only people to use those spaces are paying to do so, often at a high cost and with at least societal pressure imposing a time limit.
They’re being used by private businesses, charging the public for access to what they should have for free
Only if they allow anyone to sit there, and not just customers
Cheddar is my favorite channel!
i dont think retail is a BAD idea especially if they are convince in nature like bodegas or quick food no one is going to chill in these places without having a reason to stay there. Small business rent control for these places is also a good idea!
Agreed. The only concern is that most retail spaces these days are just Starbucks and luxury brand stores, since nobody else can afford the rent.
@@darkwoodmovies why i said rent controlled retail unites lol
“This story begins in New York City” - wow no way
"I'm gonna go get the papers, get the papers."
I remember back in the 1970’s, these plazas were popular at lunch time.
I used to go to the Elevated Acre all the time when I worked downtown!
Sounds to me like someone needs to release that study and encourage people to individually write to the city about one of those properties that you you’ll get a lot of individual complaints then maybe they’ll do something
Many of these are actually pretty nice, like the one shown at Brown Brothers Harriman & Co that is across from Zuccotti Park. In the summertime, the trees provide much needed shade and in the winter, they have pretty lights on them.
I don't believe the FAR building height extension is unlimited, but I may be wrong. I'm pretty sure it's something like a maximum of 5-6x the lot. Though I know that is only permissible in certain zoning districts it's probably closer to 2-3x in mid pop areas. Though I understand how many of these developers and architects have neglected those spaces, I see it as a win. You don't get all the same square rectangle skyscrapers that block out any uniqueness to the city. Could use a little push from the NYC Planning department to get those spaces fitted out.
How about if the entire street is seen as ONE MAJOR PROMENADE...
WATER STREET- by creation of plaza/park space with fountains, trees, plantings, cafes, etc., by reducing street traffic only to bus transit, service and emergency vehicles. Remove all public parking at the curbs except handicapp spaces. How about creating the "Water Steet Trolley Line"?
I can evasion this becoming something as popular as the Highline, only at street level. There could be space for festivals, preforming arts, etc.
These are just ideas! 🤔
As a retiree who spent my career years in Manhattan, I used public space plazas throughout midtown and also downtown in the World Financial Center area. I lived a stretch of the legs from the site of the original Twin Towers, and loved hanging in their public spaces on weekends.
My career was literally in skyscraper building. I worked in commercial architectural design, and specialized in large-scale projects. Some of the projects I worked on were in the World Trade Center, and I was part of the team for the Merrill Lynch Corporate Headquarters at the World Financial Center.
Not every public space plaza is in front of a skyscraper's footprint. The Citicorp Building had a lovely (and busy) central atrium, which I frequented regularly. My ex worked near the GM Building, and he often ate his lunch in their plaza, weather permitting. Also nearby are the Channel Gardens, between St. Pat's Cathedral and Rockefeller Center. The Channel Gardens plaza is probably the heaviest trafficked public plaza in midtown Manhattan, especially in the summer and during the Christmas season.
My first job in NYC was in the Gulf & Western Building on Columbus Circle. In those years, the G&W Building had a large open plaza at the building entrance. It wasn't inviting, so the public never used it. A Central Park entrance is across the street anyhow, and the open area in front of that entrance buzzes with people. Ergo, the G&W plaza was redundant. Additionally, the large plaza of Lincoln Center is nearby on the side of the building opposite the park.
I love your "Little Tulip" at 3:24. If you hold you hands higher slightly past your head, then that's the "Big Tulip".
"Privately owned public spaces" that sounds like an oxymoron
Seriously, that's because it IS 🙄. Gotta read between the lines 😬🤦😅.
It sounds like the real problem is that the 1961 ordinance needs to be repealed and a new one that is better thought through be put in place.
Great video
Potential food truck pop up spots
Always wondered thanks
Disappointing that this video swung a hard point to the "not for us" viewpoint. Yes developers absolutely took advantage of the zoning, but the zoning spoke to the fact that a good majority of open plazas were built between the 1950s and 1970s during a different trend and concept in urban planning that was seen as a positive. Pedestrians would slowly take over the street with cars and public transportation moved out or underground. This also included the closing and "malling" of some major inner city streets. Most were a huge failure and have since been returned to vehicular traffic (ex. State Street in Chicago) but a few have survived with significant additions (ex. Nicollet Mall in Minneapolis) such as outdoor restaurants and retail as was pointed out as a "fix" for the plazas here. As time moved on cities realized that density, traffic, and retail bring revenue and life.
I used to be a NYC messenger choice and it's crazy how they actually believe empty is good
What's wrong with local food and drink outlets having seating on a plaza? I'm also not sure I understand what the issue is with making a privately-owned plaza private access only, or it being monetised (cash grab? It's their land). They are public spaces only in the sense that they've been made open to the public; they aren't public property like Trafalgar Square.
how DARE public plazas allow outdoor restaurant seating, so *terrible* for the city and its people
Lol right?
Extremely interesting exposay.
They should get rid of them empty plaza n replace it with mini park fill with trees, bushes and nice grass!!
my dyslexic brain read: Why New York Is Filled With Empty Pizzas (box?)
I recognized so many of those spaces. Most were down in FiDi and Tribeca, and while I'll take your word for it, those shots didn't really prove your case as the majority of the spaces featured WERE public accessible.
verrrry interesting!
The Seagram Building's plaza was vibrant in the 70s, and was known as one of the best according to a documentary
Great concept however with today's climate it's going to be trashed and full of homeless by the afternoon.. plus the crime rate is going to exceed the usefulness...
I'm just saying that reality needs to be applied to these wonderful theories.
I agree we should stop spending resources on plazas and correct the unhoused issue... Our priorities with these projects largest comical at this point.. let's build Open spaces and ignore the elephant in the room. Maybe instead of open clauses perhaps we can divide them into many housing..
Cities always feel to me like a big beatiful place that Is clósed to me , so good looking AND so hostile, It makes me feel like i dont belong anywhere.
Before I watch I am going to guess why these plazas in New York City are empty and then see if I am right or not.
1. There are no shops in/around the plaza
2. They are basically an extension of the Lobby of the building/center
3. They are most likely designed like a jail's yard (concrete and not much else).
Well I was entirely wrong on all counts, well except for maybe #2.
However, I would say that many of the public parks, plazas and spaces in European cities are used mostly because the cities are more welcoming and there are less high rises. I may be entirely wrong on that aspect (since we have seen how wrong I was in predicting why these plazas go unused).
Ding ding! The yoochube explainer voiced narrator used the magic word ay-nother! Ten points!!
Good job
Improving these small public spaces and better balancing the needs of the public and developers would be fine, but the premise of this story, which is that they are inferior to what other great cities have, like London's Trafalgar Square, makes no sense. New York has many large public spaces that, while unique to NY's grid structure, serve a similar purpose: Rockefeller Center, Bryant Park, Times Square (now largely pedestrianized), Washington Square Park, etc.
They need to be there for aesthetic
Pre-pandemic there was a lot more public use of a couple of those plazas and indoor amenities shone here as empty. I hope and expect they with repopulate. I think the landlords have done what they were legally obligated to do - short of advertising, which of course was not required. Some of them are stunning public spaces. Having restaurant seating "on the public square" offers the advantage of cutting the renegades from Belleview (I was and outpatient) with some paying customers. And after all, diversity is what we're after, right?
I have a two-acre yard and live about a mile from an 18,000-acre state preserve. Thinking about arguing over square feet boggles the mind.
so I was once eating my take out lunch Infront of the Seagrams building and a security guard asked what I was doing and I responded, utilizing the public plaza that allowed this building to not have to comply with the 1916 set back law. he paused smiled and said carry on
"De-velopers, Developers, DEVelopers, DEVELOPERS!"
I love Cheddar!
It's Park Avenue and those "plazas" we're built in the 1950s and 1960s. It's an office building.
Easily accessible with high-quality amenities... so free to use and expensive to maintain.
…dude as someone who had to read about these for my architecture BA. They were built for people. Maybe look into the architectures who designed these spaces first.
QGIS -made map at the beginning
Do New Yorkers a favor and systematically get advocates to building owners and and nyc buildings department to open up these public spaces
Oh, Paris has quite some "public" places that feel like you shouldn't be there.
It sucks that one of the most beautiful plazas is gone now… World Trade Center
21 years ago isn't exactly _now._ Just saying..
Too many of those plazas are just not designed for people to be in. They are often just barren stretches of concrete with no places to sit. Presumably, that's to keep homeless people away, but it really keeps everyone away.
typical. People complain they don't have access to supposedly public spaces and the city decides to replace them with shops.
How much corporate can you get?
Nah, they are just targets for nukes.
Do those dining snacks in the middle of the street count as public plazas?
😂😂🥳🥳 seriously
As long as they have outlets and wifi I'll be happy
I got the key, key to Gramercy Park
Wish Baltimore had these.
Its kind of annoying that people feel the need to fill any and every empty space. 😕
Welcome to prime real estate baby!
The government basically wont enforce its own regulations on the wealthy land owners who are breaking the deals they have with the city. There I summed it up. But god help you if your the little guy trying to get ahead, you will then have inspections daily to drive you out of the city.
Zoning resolutions - woot
I would love to live in a city with actual public spaces
Did you mean _Europe?_