The Baldwin Centipede| A steam-head company’s rough start with mainline diesels.
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- #TheRocketCityRailfan #AndrewRailaBammers #Centipede
Info from Wikipedia, High Iron, and American Rails
To round off my trilogy of giant diesel flops from 3 different builders, find out the answer to why this strange diesel locomotive with so many wheels even existed.
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0:00-2:53 Origins of the Centipedes
2:54-5:52 Description of the Centipede
5:53- 11:39 Problems (main section of review)
11:40- 14:21 Conclusion
14:22-16:02 outro - Наука та технологія
The Baldwin Centipede was basically the diesel equivalent of a Union Pacific Big Boys. They were big and powerful, but they were maintenance hogs and had various disadvantages.
Except, the bigboys are successful and at least 8 are in preservation with one in operation condition.
Nice to see an episode covering one of the largest diesel engines in existence. Although the music was a bit loud at some points, the narration still makes the video unique. Can't wait for another episode in this great series.
Not even close, I suggest you study the Union Pacific and it's large diesels off the late 60s and early 70s.
@@turkeytrac1 He said, "one of" not THE biggest.
The Pennsylvania had a line through Vandalia, IL and through part of the town the track was down in sort of a trench. A fun place to watch trains. Wide enough so you could be safe, but still pretty "up close and personal". Probably circa 1962 or so I was there, and a fast freight came through with a centipede on the lead. it was really moving and quite a little experience to see one of those beasts flash by.
It's the standardized design concept in which builders like EMD, GE, and Alco beat out former steam builders. The former steam builders were still stuck in the customized build concept for building locomotives. This was acceptable during the steam years, but railroads were looking for standard parts and designs to maintain their locomotives.
you do realize alco is also a former steam builder right
@@Foxyisinhell You are technically right, but Alco was more willing to adapt to the changes in the environment. The other former steam builders were lost in the concept. Alco's downfall was in the electrical side of the locomotive building. If they were able to secure this element, they may have been around today.
The Centipedes that went to Mexico gave good service and allowed N de M to retire a large chunk of their steam locomotive fleet. Baldwin rebuilt N de M’s Centipedes with a different piston cap to solve the turbo fire problem after which they gave another ten years. The original concept of the Centipede was the use of smaller diesel power packs that would sit perpendicular to the body. Up to 8 packs would fit on the locomotive and could be removed or replaced with quick connections. The concept turned out to be an expensive locomotive so the engineers reshuffled their cards and converted it to a standard twin diesel configuration but retaining the unique wheel arrangement.
I operated the GG-1’s from early 1974 until their retirement on NJTRO in 1983. They were extremely smooth riding locomotives all the way to 100 mph and more.
Adding the helper service story to the script adds great sense to why these things were failures. Their problems led the PRR to misuse them.
It's back again
Nice info. But when you have to raise your voice until you're almost shouting to be heard over your background music maybe you should think about turning down the gain just a tad.
Get out
What a cool concept
Watching this from the other side of the pond, all I can say is, it's NOT just British Rail that had a headache with some of the Classes built for them...there were quite a few!
I love how you get more and more hysterical with every 'ANNNND' once you get going XD
It is what turns me off to this channel. Practically makes the videos unwatchable.
@@marklindsey1995 Not really, but you do you
I grew up a 1/2 mile from a large switching yard in the 50's and 60's. We didn't have air conditioning so we slept with our windows open so you could hear train sounds all night. Trains were a big part of my growing up. I enjoy your videos because I never bothered to learn much about RR's or locomotives. Thank you.
Another issue Pennsy had with centipedes in helper service aside from the jack knife issue was the traction motor cooling fans were in the carbody and ducted to the traction motors in the trucks. since a physical connection of a flexible duct connection wasn't possible for the most time a locomotive travels it's mostly on a straight line so the duct would be flushing cool air over the motors and wouldn't be in a curve very long for the minimal time the 2 ducts weren't lined up. only problem was helper service meant not only heavy loading where cooling would be essential they were also operating on curvy mountain railroads where those cooling fans were spending more time cooling the roadbed and the traction motors overheated. with all other possible uses for the centipede proven to be spectacular failures somebody at the Pennsy's power desk thought it over looking for a place these locomotives could still be of use to the Pennsylvania and hit on what was a seemingly perfect job for a high HP high tractive effort single ( drawbar connected) locomotive that of working the hump shoving cuts up the hump in classification yards of course that overlooked the slight issue of a a rigid frame locomotive that would at times have to crest a sharp peak. the centipede worked fine until the first time the locomotive needed to crest the hump the leading wheels kept right on going up eventually leaving the rails and then once the locomotive reached it's center of gravity the old adage of what goes up must come down came into play and the centipede came back down, not hard but also not on the rails. supposedly that was the final straw that sealed the centipede's fate as future razor blades and the order came to rerail it and once back on the rails move it to the deadline for it's final time.
Thanks for the info.
You should do a video of the GE C39-8
I think Seaboard Airline held onto their centipedes longer than other roads that bought them. They managed to make them work for a while.
good show
Two things from this. 1. Baldwin was a bit short-sighted in the diesel category, which IMHO, put the nail in the coffin for Baldwin in the mid 50's. Definately using air throttles instead of the standard electrical components that would let them lash up to Alcos, EMD's, etc., was a long term loser for a short term savings. Lack of mass production techniques for diesels also hamstrung Baldwin big time.
2. WW2 put all industries, including locomotive builders and railroads, under government supervision under the War Production Board, which regulated the output of industries, which also curtailed a lot of experimentation. It put a lot of development of the diesels @ Alco to switchers only while it gave EMD a green light on road and switching engines. The Pennsy built 125 J1 2-10-4's from the C&O design instead of new duplex's that were on the drawing board. The B&O received 30 EM-1 2-8-8-4's from Baldwin because diesels were also limited by the WPB. They wanted new FP's, they only were allowed few.
Baldwin may have gotten permission to test the centipede, but production was post-WW2. Baldwin was stuck making mostly Steam locomotives as per the WPB.
My original script did have a bit more info in it including that bit about Baldwin’s prototype but then removed it before recording so the intro wouldn’t be too long.
The Calumet & Hecla and Copper Range switchers held in for 20+ years in upper Michigan in some awful cold and snow. The MILW ROAD had units over 20 on the Twin Cities. Their shops knew how to work on them just like FM in MKE.
@@paulbergen9114 The same can be said of the the Baldwin diesels on the Western Maryland as a testament of the WM's high maintenance standards.
Babyface cabs were very ugly.
Agreed, looks like an EMD knock off lick High Iron said. I’m glad they replaced it the Sharknose streamlining
Good information, music is moronic.
can you please do " dead on arrival " about Emd SD50. Emd's first greatest flop.
I’ve got that one planned for a future episode after my brief return to steam locomotives in the next episode. The SD90MAC is also in-line for this series-not to mention how much I like the SD80MAC, but I might now have time as I’m moving out of state in about 2 weeks for college and won’t have my PC with me to work on videos, not to mention I’ll be too busy with college stuff anyway. But I may have time to continue wish those videos whenever I home home for Christmas and summer.
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014 thanks
Actually EMD's first flop was the BL-2
@@danielbackley9301 Bl-2 is a failure, but it didn't tarnish Emd's reputation, and only 59 ever built for just a few railroads, there is some debate on mechanically unreliable. compare that to SD50. 431 Sd50s ever built. they plagued by engine and electrical system problems and failures. SD50 suppose to successor to SD40-2 it didn't do that SD40-2 ( 3,982 SD40-2s) outsell it, SD50's production lasted until 1987 compare that to SD40-2's production lasted until 1989. many SD50 coverted to SD40-2 standards and SD50 tarnished EMD's reputation. allowing GE to catch up becoming top 1 locomotive manufacturer.
This video brings up a good point about engine weight. A diesel could be "heavier" than a steam engine, but without the pounding of the drive rods, the load was actually lighter. Witness the number of bridges that had all kinds of restrictions with steam engines, but multiple unit diesels could traverse the same structures without incident. BTW, there was a Baldwin Centipede on the B&O's "West End" on at least one occasion. W. R. Hicks snapped the 6000 at the M&K Junction (Rowlesburg, WV) Enginehouse May 28, 1948 - page 45 of Deane Mellander's "B&O Thunder in the Alleghenies". B&O bought a number of Baldwins (Sharks and S12 switchers mostly), but Centipedes were not among them.
Charles S. Roberts' book WEST END had his take on 6000's journey to B&O's West End.. The number "6000" didn't bode well with the engine crews as they were the number series of the first class S 2-10-2's that once trod across "The Hill" (as the author called West End). The B&O were also big Baldwin customers, yet took the hard pass on them, as Roberts' noted, "They were returned with a note, 'Thanks, but no thanks.' "
Anecdotally, Roberts concludes with "The Hill must've laughed when The Pennsy suckered on these bombs."
@@mike6206 Thanks, I forgot all about that. I haven't looked through my copy of WEST END for several years now, may be time to pick it up again.
The EMD E units actually ran smoothly over terrible track, but F's were a bit bouncy. (See: 1970's Rock Island) The multiple wheels had to be to spread the weight and electrical loads.
The photo at 11:53 shows the oil leaks the centipedes had along the car body due to vibration from the engines and the oil lines running along the insides of the body rupturing the oil lines.
Dang, never knew about that flaw till now.
Baldwin failed for, among others, two reasons. But the time Baldwin warned up to diesels, they didn't figure out that motor transition was required for high speed running. They could pull the earth, but good luck going beyond 40 MPH on their earlier diesels. Secondly, their MU system was only compatible with other Baldwin diesels, and railroads already figured out that they really like equipment that works together.
Super. 💙 T.E.N.
Started with "Penn Central" in 1972, rode many a GG1's, they were a good riding engine. Smooth ride over some rough tracks back in the day, not at all comfortable inside, but it had speed with that good ride.
Ericstrains made me aware of this engine.
Jeez Andrew, sounded very angry
Baldwin just can't keep up with Assembly line techniques already common in Automotive industry.
This because Baldwin began as centennial steam locomotive builders that used Robert Stephenson's techniques (particularly with their first engines being Stephenson's copy). While EMD had already became part of General Motors conglomerate which already excels in assembly line techniques.
You might want to obtain a copy of the "Diesel from Eddystone" book by Kalmbach press. It is out of print, but copies are still available on eBay. It goes over all things involving Baldwin diesels including a chapter on the Centipedes and is a must for future videos on the subject of Baldwin.
It sucks that the Baldwin centipedes weren’t save but maybe someday if someone has millions dollars they would build a replica of the Baldwin centipedes, I hope it will happen someday
I’m just glad the remaining RF-16’s are still around even if in storage waiting for a restoration. It’s just as important to be reminded of what worked as to be reminded of what didn’t work out in the history of this industry
Do you play to remaster your older DOA series?
Yes. S1 remaster is in the works
In spite of all of the maintenance issues it's amazing how all of these locomotives lasted 20 years in Freight Service. They could have been rebuilt but you get a tax write-off if you buy new engines and scrap the old ones. Dependency wasn't in the position to buy new engines without help and that meant put it in debt and kill the Penn Central among other things.
Suggestion. Please lower the music volume. It distracts from the content. I have had to do this with one of my own videos. What you hear in editing mode can be different from what is heard in the uploaded version.
Guys Im confused
Who is longer
DDA40X or Baldwin CENTIPEDE
DDA40X, 98ft compared to 91.5ft of the centipedes
It's funny, most of the time engines that are dead on arrival have more built then the big boy.
And funny enough. The Centepede was designed for passenger service but shifting trends in RR industry at that time was that the interests in streamliners waned so the RR has to reply alot on money making freight business.
This was a very informative video very well made had lots of good points and very entertaining all at the same time you earned a subscriber today
Best episode so far!
i agree
I would suggest the underlying issue that led to the centipede design was electric motor size, and the need to split all that power. Old motors were done as DC, and had physical limits as to how much current (thus power) it could accept. If you are cranking out 6,000 hp then you need an outlet for all that power, and with the size limits of those DC motors in their underslung position you would need to fit lots of motors below. Later controller designs could "chop" power pulses to the motor to keep them from burning out but in the infancy days of electric propulsion that did not exist.
As to the original Pennsy GG-1 units, hanging more motors allowed pulling power to be developed at the coupler, but limited at the individual wheel, so the vexing problem of wheel slip was addressed by allowing for a broader input power band. I suspect, but do not know, that the GG-1 electric had a lower weight than a steam unit, thus dumping power into fewer traction motors would expose the machine to wheel slip. So the solution was to add more motors -and thus more axles!
I have a vague recollection that the Russians once built a monster steam machine with 11 power axles (22 drive wheels), but the beast was so big that it could not negotiate curves, so it was scrapped. At some point, power distribution outruns itself. Except in airplances of course; the B-52 had eight jet engines hung off it!
The deal with that Russian monster was it wasn't articulated like the Big Boys are.
and you said few 4-8-2 survived what about the mohawks the pensy the great northerns.
6000 horsepower prototype? that is insane in the 50s, let alone today
The Virginian EL-3A could generate that much horsepower continuously in 1925 (to be fair, it was a pure electric, so it kinda makes sense, but still, 6000 HP continuous in the mid-1920's is unreasonable, especially it's 277,500 pounds of tractive effort)
My Ship had a Baldwin Lima Hamilton Diesel generator for electricity.
I work at a dam still running 16 BLH Kaplan type hydro water turbines.
Each one a bit under a quarter Million HP, no typo.
2200 Mega Watts of electricity.
It would be interesting to see how the fuel tanks were positioned.
The 2 yellow trains in the start look kinda cool
Locomotives, not trains. Alco Century 855 and General Electric U50.
Now for EMD SD 90
Oh it’ll be in the works once I come back home this Christmas hopefully
Would have been great to have saved at least one of these unusual machines to view! Hey, it would be a good revenue bringer at museums.
with the big boy steam trains,
Maximum speed 80 mph (130 km/h)
Power output 7,000 hp (5,200 kW) @ Cylinder
Tractive effort 138,240 lbf (614.9 kN)
Factor of adh. 3.91
I was using the old specs, those are the specs from 4014 after its restoration and oil conversion. I know the Big Boys were supposed to put out 6,600HP but only reach 6300 in revenue service due to using low quality coal.
Great narration. These looked like they had excellent vision for the crew. Didn't Michigan State laws dictate their heavy trucks were 'Centipedes' as an aside. With a heap of axles compared to the trucks in other states
Honestly they should've just released this under their piano division
he you forgot emds big folp and emd made more then baldwin.
also i think that the rf-15 and rf-16 were verry good.
Also i like the design of the u50 and i dont get why none were preserved despite being good and large engines.Also they remind me of sp cab forwards a bit i like modern diesels that just are diferrent looking than cab or cowl.
Settle down it’s all good
Can you please reupload your trailers on a playlist? They’re so entertaining!
Enjoyable and informative video. My only suggestion is to steady your voice. Sometimes you’re talking too fast and your words aren’t clear. That aside, it’s a compelling presentation.
I wanna see a series like this, but with more successful locomotives
Well made loco report!
Baldwin did suffer from the same issues as the British firm North British Locomotive Works.
They were excellent builders of steam locomotives, and in the case of NBL, they even exported more locomotives than the already quite large numbers they did build for the domestic market.
Baldwin was a large exporter too, but I don't know if their export numbers surpassed domestic production.
But both used the same production methods for diesels as for steam, without having every aspect of their construction precisely written down, and in some cases even with steam loco tolerances which weren't precise enough in case of manufacturing engines and other mechanical parts for diesels.
And even in these days there are examples of trains built in such a way.
The failed Fyra HST sets for Dutch railways were a nightmare, built by Ansaldo Breda of Italy, every set was different in placement of wiring and some other equipment, these trains stopped working if the slightest bit of snow fell.
More than 800 major and minor defects were noted after delivery, in the end the train sets were sent back to Italy and further orders were cancelled.
Certainly is a fascinating design. Pretty impressive for their first venture into a mainline locomotive; just a shame they missed the mark with being more universally friendly and consistency for maintenance. By contrast over the pond even with the UK's considerably smaller locomotives some Diesels no matter how good would be done in by maintenance and upkeep costs too as it becomes harder to justify keeping an engine in service if it's less likely to be available. The Class 56 did well for the most part but would begin to lose traffic to the easier to maintain and less costly Class 66 though the Class 56 still remains in use by some UK rail operators.
it's a.....bigga boy!
great video :)
After failing to woo Dexter's sister Dee Dee, Mandark attempted to distract himself with trains and soon became a rail enthusiast or "Railfan".
Oh dear. It was Ransom Eli Olds that introduced the assembly line to the manufacturing of cars I 1902, not Henry Ford. The first mass produced car was the Oldsmobile Model R Curved Dash. The Oldsmobile system shifted workers from place to place on the production line whilst the Ford system shifted the product not the workers.
The Centipede traction motor blowers did no align with the traction motors on a curve and this lead to traction motor overheating. This was only discovered when they were near retirement.
Would you ever do a DOA on the Pennsylvania Railroad's T1 4-4-4-4 Duplexes?
Working on a similar idea
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014 HEY! IT WOULD BE AN INSULT TO DO THAT BECUASE WE FOR 1 DONT KNOW A LOT ABOUT ITS PERFORMENCE. B OKAY THERE WAS SOME WHELL SLIP PROBLEM BU OTHER THAN THAT IT WAS GREAT AND VERRRY FAST.
@@vaclavmacgregor2464 He's probably making a video about another duplex (probably the B&O N1, but it might be the PRR Q1)
Hi Andrew. Two-cylinder steam locomotives were tough on the track because their torque was so irregular and unbalanced - thus creating hammer blow aka dynamic augmentation. Diesel-Electric and Electric locomotives have consistent torque because the electrical input is easily controlled and consistently supplied. Where Diesel-Electric and Electric locomotives pay a price is that the traction motors tend to be suspended on the axles - and therefore are un-sprung weight - and therefore are hard on the track. Whereas on a steam locomotive everything other than wheels and axles are sprung. Axle loading doesn't particularly come into it.
It's too bad they didn't work out. Those are awesome engines! Are any of them preserved?
I stated in the video they were all cut up
The whole of the Union Pacific fanbase when they realized Baldwin built a 4-8-8-4 diesel >:(
Edit: I love how you compared the Centipede to the Yamato. The only difference is that the Centipede wasn't equipped with 18.1 caliber guns XD
That relates or similar to the "Bridge Formula" when the axles are closer together.
Very nicely put together video and very entertaining as well. Thanks for posting this.
Baldwin pneumatic control was a good feature but it prevented their locomotives from hooking up with other locomotives from other manufacturers because that was simply not done back in the old days. Baldwin made good switches and good road switchers which is why 80 years later you have Baldwin switches that still are rolling up the 10 miles and you can still get parts for the Baldwins and they tow like anything. Crews used to held used to have contest to see how many cars a Baldwin can tow before the traction Motors caught on fire the record was 108 was one Switcher because the Diesel's weighed less than steam Engineers got paid less than steam so they had been sensitive to bugger up the diesel so it would have to be replaced by a steam engine so they would get paid more.
Think of the maintenance nightmare that a Centipede with Fairbanks-Morse prime movers would be.😊
The Rage Monster.
If you don’t get it, watch an old episode of Dude Perfect stereotypes
E units always porpoised. It was inherent to the design. Even the UP heritage E9 has a bad galloping or porpiosing problem on welded, newly ballasted rail.
Baldwin lost the plot, once steam came to an end. Can't believe they produced each locomotive different from one another. Ridiculous.
They had been in the business of producing custom steam locomotives for over a hundred years. I guess the inertia of Baldwin's past was too much to overcome.
@@andyharman3022 There's one thing to customise standard designs, but quite another when each locomotive is unique with NO interchangeable parts. That's a terrible way to conduct any engineering business, let alone building locomotives. You are effectively re-inventing the wheel, every time you build something.
11:05 first glance: a csx sd9? lol
The longest diesel ever????
DDA40X: that's cute
Me: Nope
Still better than Lima's diesels
Well that’s a given👍
hey why dont you do some czech locos therr were good czechia has the most dense railroad network in the world
I feel like there could be a D.O.A. episode discussing the B&O N1 Duplex
Oh yes. It’s on my list
Next episode
Triplex locomotive and the “proposed” Baldwin ATSF Quadruplex
One of the problems would be
Jackknifing
Derailment
My first time here, is it normal for you to start yelling over loud music half way through?
Okkkkkkk!! Don’t have a heart explosion 😆👏
I’m 100x less likely to than Frank Miller’s Batman having a heart attack
The Broad Brim Railroad Company, The Iron Hame & Iron Hat Railroad Corporation, the Cone Horn Railway, and the Bowler Nose Railroad Company (all together: The Top Hat Railroad Cartel (Top Hat Rail/ THR)):
“Yes, we will take some centipede locomotives. And No, we won’t be having Issues with them. We have the finest Mechanics, Engineers, and Engine Workers in all of the Top Hat Mercenary Confederation.”
One thing you should know about Top Hat Mercenaries is that they know how to take Broken and/or Garbage machines and Make Them Work.
Behold! The human-cent... Train cetipede!
baldwin had a tough time developing the diesel....and holding its competitive market share.. we know the end results...
Doesn't make any sense were they not able to make drawings of where everything was supposed to go for a given model?
Of course they did. Machinists and mechanics don't just make this stuff up.
Baldwin just got in the diesel locomotive market to late unfortunately, at least with the full size road units technically not their fault but even the smaller diesels they got in the market to late
That's the problem being the first to try something. You can be the first to fail.
Baldwin Alco made diesels to custom specifications that the railroads wanted and many of the specifications that the railroads desired in the Baldwin and Alco locomotives then they also demanded in the EMT locomotives but as Alco and Baldwin went out of business EMD and General Electric had a lock on locomotive manufacturer.
Its due to the front trucks compared to normal diesels that dont have them. Not the amount of wheels❤
A locomotive that size and it could still only produce 3,000hp from TWO engine blocks.
OMG what the this is are very big and unseccufully so im so break my brain and bla bla hehe broke brain and the hell is this are steam locomotive or diesel what the
everytime he said C'ast, i thought it was gunshots
These locomotives placed as DPU's
I enjoyed this. Music was quite jarring especially in headphones. But still good info and nice visuals. I just shut off the sound. :)
Speaking of headphones, that’s all I had for output audio at the time, LOL. I now have speakers though and they’ve helped me a lot with properly balancing volume.
👍👍👍❤❤❤
The PRR used its Centipedes as helper units on Horseshoe Curve, and the SAL used its Centipedes in Florida. This model was a massive failure.
"-How shall we style this??
-Like an F unit but with a sad face..
-Approved!!!"
0:45 is that the Rio grande from the Denver railway museum?
It’s from the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden, Colorado just outside of Denver. We went to that museum instead of the one UP 4005 is in because we didn’t know about Denver Fashion week, which resulted in the museum being closed the day we were supposed to see it. I’ll try again another time, but man do I not agree with Denver Fashion week nor that city’s political choices
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014 I think o got the museum place and name wrong but yeah that's what I meant
The Baldwin Chungus 😉
The video is packed full of interesting information. However, I found the narration too frantic and intense. This style of narration might work for Fox News, but I don't think it works well for a erudite, technical presentation.
I agree. Turned the volume waaayyyyyy down
@@katsebua Same here sounds more like Fox News.
Yes. The voicing distracts from the content.
Also, some of the text flashed on the screen was up there for a WAY TOO SHORT period of time. I had to rewind and pause several times in order to read it.
Agreed! This is more appropriate for Fox News than a documentary.