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Prison for Post Office Lawyers? Recent case says yes. But you can tell a jury to acquit.
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2024
- Couple of interesting cases this week setting out the boundaries of when Contempt gets you prison time.
Video on Juries and their right to acquit:
• When Juries Rebel. Bu...
That contempt case:
www.bailii.org...
#artoflaw #postoffice #jury #contemptofcourt
Disclaimer: Neither this nor any other video, may be taken as legal advice. I accept no liability whatever for any reliance placed upon it.
Founded by Alan Robertshaw and @Blackbeltbarrister
ua-cam.com/users/bl...
The legal profession has been shamed again
It is only 90% of lawyers that give the rest such a bad name
It's the same for everything, one works hard to build up a reputation, but due to the rogues in the pack, public perceptions shift.
@@palemale2501 Guess I'm unlucky then, I've dealt with at least 10 and not come across a good one.
@@benholroyd5221 No no - that is almost par ie 9 bad for 1 good one lol.
@@benholroyd5221 Mind you it is a bit like car mechanics, you hang on to a good one, until you are unhappy, then you change again.
Nothing significant will happen to any senior post office or former post office employees. The judicial system is weak and ineffective especially when dealing with large companies.
Genuinely hope you're wrong, but sincerely fear that you're absolutely spot on.
wouldn't want to be the cleaner or door security guard at post-office HQ? when it's worked out with be all there fault? it will be kicked down chain as much as posable, the record tape transcripts, are damming enough, a full court case should not be needed? it so only how guilty and how long?
the "judicial system" has nothing to do with it - a crime requires intention - how can a company create an intention - can a company of itself commit a crime?
@@user-gl5kj1fm5x Umm..yes, yes of course it can, because a company is comprised of people, each of whom is perfectly capable of committing a crime either individually or in unison with others whilst representing the company in question.
what happens if the individuals are not 'the controlling mind' of the company - not company secretary or company director? and what happens if the company secretary and or company directors have no knowledge of the alleged crime?@@Daithai96
I was a defendant in a civil trial not in Britain. A document central to the case was concealed and not discovered. Its existence was squeezed out of one witness when it had been denied by a previous witness. It was then discovered overnight. What was remarkable is that a witness to the document was representing the plaintiffs. He "forgot".
Why would you tell a jury to acquit when someone is blatantly guilty? Referring to the PO Lawyers.
It's been an option for hundreds of years, usually when juries think that the law is an ass or that to find someone guilty is against natural justice.
prediction - no one from the upper echelons of POL will be punished
Mob justice may prevail
I hope it isn’t so, but senior people seem to get off Scot free
If there had ever been the REMOTEST possibility of post office or fujitsu being prosecuted, then that TV drama would not have been produced nor broadcast.
Well, let's keep this travesty alive for justice.
One Law for us and it changes for them.
Lawyers must be thrown in jail also.
Only those who break the law. Be careful what you wish for. You might need a lawyer yourself one day. One would be difficult to find if they're all in prison or "...at the bottom of the sea..." as the joke goes.
Solicitors lawyers and barristers are ALL members of the bar guild therefore in the same club as the judges need I say more?
Eye for an eye in the case of the post office case for the lawyers as far as I’m concerned. They even had the cheek to accept wages for their deceptive shenanigans . Probably a bonus too
Tommy Robinson was sent straight down for standing outside a court telling jurors they could acquit on conscience.
It would be 'interesting' to rent a billboard outside a court house and advise jurors as to their rights on it.
Wonder how many barristers sail close to the wind on perverting justice during a case, by their lines of questioning and inferences with no direct evidence and heard by the jury, despite any directions by the judge to ignore - but the genie is out of the bottle ?
The judge will check his directions have been respected, in his summing up instructions to the Jury. For example, if the Prosecution's case has thereby collapsed, he can instruct them to find the accused innocent, and although they can find otherwise, they may have to explain their dissent in camera before he sentences. There's often communication from the Jurors to clarify points of law, for instance.
and the Met officers in the Tommy Robinson case?
I've got a feeling that Jarnail Singh will open Pandora's box to save himself in his second sitting. Let's see ...
Thanks Alan.
Talking about statements on T shirts. We all (should) know that anyone engaged in *silent prayer* within the exclusion zone (100m) of an abortion clinic is breaking the law and can be arrested and prosecuted. Is it illegal to wear a T shirt with the slogan "abortion is murder" providing you are outside of the exclusion zone?
Another question. I know, I'm a cheeky git.
If there's a church, synagogue or mosque within the exclusion zone does the silent prayer law still apply? Could the police enter the building and arrest everyone inside for praying?
Where is the justice in this country then?
Justice is for those with recourse to considerable funds (Hugh Grant & Prince Harry's cases, as recent examples)
It's also who you know.
Good evening to you. Glad to hear that you are somewhat more optimal. I found this a very very interesting video. I look forward to the one about different Contempts. I hadn't realized that Capibarrister was quite so cute. Thank you, 😊.
Thank you, I like your story here, you explain succinctly the highs and lows of court life and I love your sense of humour, God bless you Art of Law family ❤
From what I've Seen So Far, The WHOLE P.O Management should be in Court.
Thanks for the video, it is nice to know there has been movement on going after the people who did the dirty deeds in the Post Office Scandal.
I hope that line about escaping the lions den, and returning for his hat, was from the defamation case in Australia. It would be sad if two cases had the same line in their written judgement.
Another factor is the Supreme Court's primary role in stopping miscarriage of Justice. Given the primary role of first-level Tribunals was seriously and constructively flouted by the prosecution, and in many cases the Appeals procedure too, not least in that is works from a presumption of guilt based on the first-level decisions, then I must surmise that the doctrine of vexatious litigation must be extended to malicious prosecution, in the SC''s august hands: if you've been prosecuted by POL, the entire prosecution must be overthrown, returning the case to as if it had never been, together with a presumption of guilt on the part of Post Office Limited, this is what your compensation must be. Oh, and by the way, HM Treasury's role means bankruptcy is not an option, Agency applies.
Likewise with Royal Mail, for the £5 fraud fraud.
Indeed
I could listen to this man waffle on all day! Thank you sir for the videos 🤘
😂
The irony of explaining to jurors what their powers are, rather than what they think they are, being 'contempt'. When would the man on the Clapham Omnibus actually learn the full scope of what a juror can legally do, exactly? Where it is laid out in such a manner as to be comprehensible to a layman?
Really enjoy your talks!
Thanks for a very interesting explanation. I was hoping you’d have something to tell us about this.
Loving Capybarroster!
These are people who work for the government (or did) - they are a protected species.
Remember that the 'Justices' also work for the government, so members of the same club.
There will be no prison sentences.
Sadly that seems to be forgotten if those Government Service employees are still being prosecuted if they happen to be Armed Forces Personnel.
It’s them and us always was always will be
@@Royboy50 time to change these governments..
Thank you Mr Robertshaw.
Always great to hear your ramblings, can't get enough of your in depth knowledge and understated demeanor, it's spot on!
Really interested to hear more about contempt, please.
Yes, _please_ do a video on the varieties and process of contempt of court. I for one would be very interested as it's not something one sees much about if one is either outside of the system or not studied it fomally.
Thank you. Very interesting
The best T shirt "There is no planet B"
Always great videos, thanks for sharing, hope you are feeling more optimal soon.
Splendid analysis @Art of Law 👍👍👍
You suggest that this contempt case might have some relevance to the Post Office scandal. Adding contempt into the mix, what would you consider to be the "shopping list" of offenses that POL executives might be charged with? Perjury? Conspiracy? Joint Enterprise? False accounting? Perverting the course of justice? Offenses under employment legislation?... and under corporate legislation?
Would the same rules / laws apply to judges sir ?
It's the retroactivity provision of ECHR/UDHR, applied to Case Law.
But you can tell a jury to acquit = why would they do so in the case of the Post Office?
Most any of them will get is a suspended sentence, and perhaps limitations on future roles or employment restrictions.
The recognitional nod towards the late great Jethro was really sweet.
Although in general, I have the utmost respect for solicitors, barristers and police etc although we all know there are some rogues amongst them, none of them are above the law. So if they knowingly portray anything untruthful they must be held accountable and not pass the buck onto their client.
I am surprised there is not more highlight on corporate manslaughter for the suicides of some of the sub-postmasters.
100%
I can relate to people taking their own life when the system fails them so utterly appallingly.
Regarding the post office inquiry. What power has the king got? Can he order Jane MacLeod, Post Office general counsel from 2015 to 2019, to attend the inquiry as she is one of his subjects? After all prisoners are detained at his majesty's pleasure.
Not one top-level PO staff weasel will do time. Now pensioners, they´ll slink off to their villas abroad and disappear into expat middle-class smugness.
Truth and facts mean little to British justice. It's more centered on who you work for, who you know, and if your connected to the government. They don't like washing their dirty laundry that's for sure.
Could retrospective legislation play a part in the PO in terms of contempt? Is there any statute limitation on contempt?
very interesting
Ken Dodd was acquitted even though Brian Leveson QC had a perfect forensic case. It was thought that the trial should have been held away from Liverpool. Some say that George Carman was the better advocate.
Doddy, is the EXCEPTION to the rule. Lester Piggot didn't get off.
On the 2000 reports, done for contempt in one. The question then is why lawyers didn't go back and appeal 1999 other cases?
That's legal negligence.
Lawyers need to keep records, searchable online of people involved in cases from the prosecution side. Then when one gets caught, a search of the data base is made, and with the agreement of those convicted or who have lost cases, appeals are put in.
There needs to be the equivalent of the Brady list in the US that contains the name of unreliable police officers. That extends to specialist witnesses. There's an entire business there, where lawyers put their cases in, witness from the other side. When one gets called out, that's entered and subscribers get the full list of cases where they and the tainted witness were involved.
The Justice System believes that the system is beyond reproach. Only last week I received a response from them saying as much. All the while their heads are in the clouds, people's lived experience of the Justice system leaves them wanting.
I suppose it's a sort of arrogance and an inability to understand the experiences of the ordinary person.
As I right this, I think of our PM....
Any progress on Greenfell yet? No?
I would think he should be referred to the GMC
And also
All his previous cases / reports could be reviewed by the courts and insurers .
He was automatically and an MPTS panel heard the case
Could the post arrest falsification of written orders to cover up mistakes by senior police officers (as caused the collapse of Tommy Robinson's latest trial April 23 2024) also be contempt?
Are police officers exempt from personal liability for contempt of court?
Lawyers r not accountable for any lies
Love it.
Guilty “as soon as you try it”. Try what exactly? Tell the truth?
All very odd.
I can't see how that statement could possibly influence the decision of a juror one way or the other. It's a neutral statement. That's no different to saying the jurors need to do their best, or they need to weigh carefully, or the decision rests upon their shoulders. Unless there is some precedence with jurors that they shall not allow their conscience to influence their decisions.
12 months should be 12 years and even thats not enough for these criminals
The old Perverse Judgement problem.
What this highlights is the fact that the judiciary make it up as they go along , i have been in courts and you can see the regular faces from judges to barristers and solicitors , the arrogance and ignorance that theses professional people practice shows how results like this and others that make a mockery of the judiciary system.professional when unchecked = ignorance and arrogance that leads to fatal consequences, harry shipmen for example
100%
Who is ulimately responable for the post office ? Is it the post office and so on or is it the big boss Royal Mail? in which case it is HRH?
I thought it was the government. As Royal Mail & Post Office are separate entities these days, I believe.
Well, it's owned by the Government with responsibility falling to The Department of Business Energy and Industrial Strategy.
Post Office Ltd is a private limited company with the UK government being the sole shareholder. The clue is in the title.
Case references?
Osadly no1 wtll go 2 jail. Privilege bad thi g
I love contempt...when it is used in the appropriate context. Not "legal" contempt, but the withering, sociopath- and narcissist-destroying contempt that finally makes an arrogant bam realise they have been busted. Know what I mean, Mr Trump?
👍
You forget the PO is govt owned and there’s an election on the horizon
Lawyer quote of the day:
7. In this instance:
7.1. the Claimant’s cause of action is unclear;
7.2. if the Claimant’s cause of action is limited to data
protection matters, then pre-action disclosure is impossible,
given the Claimant has issued a claim already in that respect;
context:
I would only need to identify 1 cause of action. so these 2 statements are contradictory.
This is an SRA (Solicitors Regulation Authority) solicitor.
This is completely procedurally irrelevant to the case anyway.
Naughty naughty, you are no doubt fully aware that a Jury sits not just on the case but also on the law itself but your profession does not want that one coming out does it ?.
I bet you a pound that if Tommy Robinson had stood outside with the same sign they would have jailed him without hesitation! 😂
If you fancy a laugh I have an animation on these managers....press j symbol. You tube.
You need a sibilance filter.
Barristers are outside of the law. Blackbeltbarrister has actually admitted this.
Comment shared with Daniel (Blackbeltbarrister). I suggest you post a link to the video where Daniel actually said that or he might come chasing after you to sue you for defamation. I won't hold my breath.
@@ianl1052 LOL
this is wereit's unfair our system these people broke the law by in effect lying to the court , if this was a normal person they would go to jail , therefore so should these people even a token 6 months to stop this happening again and letting these corrupt people be put on a warning notice of what will happen if caught
Hi. The law in general is based on morals of the Bible and logics I would say. I am in the middle of the battle for stolen village where I live, stolen by communists in 1948 afterward stolen in 1991 and in 2001 so I would like to ask if you would be interested to give us some personal guidance how to proceed. The government, cadastral bodies, municipalities are all backing each other but we are wining by small margins but our law knowledge in general is very weak so would you be so kind to guide us? I spent 12 years of my life in GB,/and 8 years of my life in prison for murder to be honest, before I came to UK/ I love GB so I am keen on news from GB but our case is bigger than post office case because our village was stolen by the government approval even they knew it was and is against the law. Please help us we would be much smarter with a smart guy like you to have a look into our case. Thanks for reading anyways