All round a great video, very thorough and some good advice. Can't fault the instructor at all, but for anyone watching this video today you should be aware the advice/best practice for cleaning anchors has changed. It is highly recommended to lower off (on belay) than rappel. Everything said about not wearing out the fixed hardware still stands, but there's a difference between working a top rope all day long and just lowering off once at the end of the day. Rappelling is more dangerous and error prone. Besides, the "fixed" hardware can be replaced. The bolts can't (well, they can...) but the chains are easy to swap out. One lower off a day isn't going to wear the chains down very quickly.
lmao I was thinking the exact same thing when he was talking about how being in the desert made the rope more abrasive like, "maybe keep better care of ur rope so it doesn't get covered in wet sand in the first place"
And as others have said; I’ve watched quite a few vids on this subject and read all the comments, and this is the most logically sound vid on safely repelling on UA-cam.
Free add on tip check the bolts tightness with your fingers before you TR on them or rap off them. They shouldn't be loose but occasionally are and since it takes about 2 seconds that is what I consider the top of my system when I am double checking everything. Great video, even without my over analyzing of bolt safety.
Great video, only thing I noticed, when he cleans the anchor he is relying completely on the backup prusik to break his rappel. I like to stay clipped on the wall until I'm completely ready to start my rappel.
@11:37 top left of the screen, after the girl messes with the green shirt, it turns into a sideways portrait of a weird face! Also great climbing info, thank you
I really like the clarity of the video, but starting at 5:20 Doug is not redundant. He is connected to the anchor with a single loop. Is there a way to avoid this single point of failure?
Question - at 4:00, you mentioned that if the anchor was set up with two quickdraws, you’ll then need to clip your double length sling into both chains. Why can’t you just clip into both draws? And with the chains being about 5 inches apart, how would you clip into both chains with a single sling? Thanks.
Great video! Very thorough and much better than most of the how-to's on UA-cam currently. The only question I'm left with at the end is: What was the reasoning behind clipping your double-length sling into just one leg of the quad vs. the lower masterpoint? I assume its because the system is technically still redundant i.e. if the left bolt fails you're still on the right bolt, but with lots of extension in the system. But wouldn't it be better to anchor yourself to the masterpoint to minimize extension if one bolt fails? Although I do realize this would place you a bit further down and maybe too low to comfortably thread the rope through. To stay higher on the system and closer to the anchor, I suppose you could have also clipped both legs of the quad above the limiter knots instead of just one. Why not do that also? Not criticizing your technique just wondering the reasoning behind it, thanks!
i think because it’s a double length. if you were using a 60cm sling, you could clip the master and be just as close to the bolts as he is with this setup.
you are right, if left bolt fail i worry about the capacity of the static sling to resist to that fall, probably ok but use of a sling must normally be done without any potential big shock. Personally I tends to double my self with the addition of a quickdraw clipped in the middle section of my lanyard to the other bolt or very close. Very good video in general, just don t like the application of the rappel without extension, at least he show well the potential problem.
At 4:00 in the case of an anchor made up of two draws, you say you need a draw on each bolt because they are separate draws. But wouldn’t it still be redundant to use a single draw attached at the end of both draws?
I feel like the only big thing that's missing from this video is that you should weight test your anchor system before going off Belay to make sure everything is solid.
This is really an outstanding vid. The only question I have - realizing it's an instruction demo where a Quad step-up disclaimer may have been made about the carabiners used for the demo - why lockers are not used to secure the Quad.
Funny- never knew this video was posted until a client sent me the link today :) I just answered the same question above with an almost identical answer. Nice job!
I'm confused when you say, "I will never trust my life to a piece of gear I don't own, like a bolt" But, by clipping into your anchor, which is attached to the bolts, aren't you still trusting your life to the bolts? And by top roping on that quad, aren't you still trusting those bolts with your life? AND by rapping off the bolts, aren't you still trusting the bolts?
@@tylernguyen7891 By being on the quad, he's attached to both bolts. He's basically saying he wouldn't trust his life to a SINGLE piece of equipment he doesn't own. He's using 2.
love it, just on the last one, why not put the belayer system most far from the bucle? like that no risk that the prussik knot go to the belayer system
Yes agree, as he made clear though if you have a serious problem like a rock knocking you out, it's better to have the safety prussik/autoblock in place. Better than nothing for sure. It doesn't mean you can stop for a picnic, but as he said if you have to stop, you can tie in a 'catastrophe knot' to stop the rappel temporarily. The problem is if you look at the statistics, a lot of accidents at top grades of climbing are during the rappel down. So it was a good spot you're definitely not crazy, what is crazy is having all that bolted kit and double safe set up, then relying only on one sweaty hand for your entire descent! There are a lot of rappel/abseil vids on here, I think this is a really good one. Safe climbing buddy.
Is there another knot you could use in the nylon sling that would have the same redundancy but be easier to untie after being loaded? Like an alpine butterfly knot? This would use more material and take more skill to tie, I know. But if there’s a similar knot for webbing that doesn’t cinch as much under load, it might be worth considering?
Don't think they understood your question. A good way is to use a double locking quickdraw from your belt to belay device, and then a prussic from the biner in your harness to the rope underneath the belay device. This prevents the prussic from coming in contact with the bottom of the belay device and being ineffective. Also eliminates the sling altogether. No knocks. And faster.
Lyric Derbin very nice:) I like. You could still use the longer sling to build and clean your gear, but use the QD with a double lock as your rappel extension.
Ski. Play. Live. TV But that is an interesting thought on building an anchor. Does sound like you would be adding complexity to you setup and routine. More shit to F up. I probably would want to use that either, but it might be worth knowing how to do it. Another tool in your box and all.
great video, one question hope someone could help me with. In the video, the main attachment point to the harness is the webbing with an overhand knot, with 1 inch tumbler webbing, how strong is that particular point?
The rappel carabiner is attached to the webbing on both sides of that overhand knot and the webbing is attached to my harness via a girth hitch. The webbing is rated at 22kn but the overhand will weaken that slightly. Still more strength than you would ever generate while rappelling. I do inspect and replace these slings more often than any of my other gear because they are a single point of attachment for myself and my clients lives.
Climbing, like skiing, has it's own language but once you get involved in the sport you easily figure it out. Too bad when they ask you to put languages on your resume you can't add "climbing". lol
The AMGA does not officially recommend one method over another. They generally advocate to pick the most appropriate method given the individual circumstances. More importantly to completely understand any system/method/item you use and also their modes of failure
Unless I'm missing something the carabiners holding the rope on the quad are clipped to all four strands - instead of two - totally wrong and unsafe - WTF?
Dave Owen it looks like the first one is clipped to two strands and the second is clipped to the other two strands, which would make it redundant. hard to tell without a closer look but that’s how i’ve always used quad anchors.
Accepted best practice is to have two opposite and opposed lockers for your masterpoint(where the rope runs through) but lockers are not necessary where your anchor attaches to the bolt hangers as long as there is no potential for something(mainly rock) to push the gate open. Those carabiners really don't move much where the masterpoint is subject to movement and potential for the rope to unscrew the gate.
All round a great video, very thorough and some good advice. Can't fault the instructor at all, but for anyone watching this video today you should be aware the advice/best practice for cleaning anchors has changed. It is highly recommended to lower off (on belay) than rappel. Everything said about not wearing out the fixed hardware still stands, but there's a difference between working a top rope all day long and just lowering off once at the end of the day. Rappelling is more dangerous and error prone. Besides, the "fixed" hardware can be replaced. The bolts can't (well, they can...) but the chains are easy to swap out. One lower off a day isn't going to wear the chains down very quickly.
Will Ferrell never ceases to amaze me ;)
I just watched a bunch of videos about setting a rappel and this is by far the most methodical and best explained. Thanks.
"we want this gear to last" shows shot of her flaking rope into the sand... hahaha XD
Same .. buy a tarp there 5-20 bucks... Same price as her hat she is wearing... And if it rains that tarp will also keep ya dryer then that cap.
lmao I was thinking the exact same thing when he was talking about how being in the desert made the rope more abrasive like, "maybe keep better care of ur rope so it doesn't get covered in wet sand in the first place"
Great video. Nothing I did not already know, but you can never remind yourself enough when it comes to safety while climbing.
Right? :)
Every now and then I keep coming back to this video, so so useful. Thank you!
Happy to hear that!
Did my first clean and rappel this weekend. Cheers to this awesome video, it was definitely the most helpful for learning how.
Glad it helped!
And as others have said; I’ve watched quite a few vids on this subject and read all the comments, and this is the most logically sound vid on safely repelling on UA-cam.
thanks for posting this! I love all of Doug's redundancy.
Absolute best explanation so far
Brother you are amazing. I’ve taken several climbing classes and buddy you are on point. Love it .
Free add on tip check the bolts tightness with your fingers before you TR on them or rap off them. They shouldn't be loose but occasionally are and since it takes about 2 seconds that is what I consider the top of my system when I am double checking everything. Great video, even without my over analyzing of bolt safety.
This video should be starred as the correct way to do it. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Great video, only thing I noticed, when he cleans the anchor he is relying completely on the backup prusik to break his rappel. I like to stay clipped on the wall until I'm completely ready to start my rappel.
@11:37 top left of the screen, after the girl messes with the green shirt, it turns into a sideways portrait of a weird face! Also great climbing info, thank you
I really like the clarity of the video, but starting at 5:20 Doug is not redundant. He is connected to the anchor with a single loop. Is there a way to avoid this single point of failure?
clip an alpine draw to your belay loop and the master point (if using this setup) or to the other bolt (if clipped in to a bolt).
Question - at 4:00, you mentioned that if the anchor was set up with two quickdraws, you’ll then need to clip your double length sling into both chains. Why can’t you just clip into both draws? And with the chains being about 5 inches apart, how would you clip into both chains with a single sling? Thanks.
I think you're not supposed to clip metal to metal.
Correct
Great video! Very thorough and much better than most of the how-to's on UA-cam currently. The only question I'm left with at the end is: What was the reasoning behind clipping your double-length sling into just one leg of the quad vs. the lower masterpoint? I assume its because the system is technically still redundant i.e. if the left bolt fails you're still on the right bolt, but with lots of extension in the system. But wouldn't it be better to anchor yourself to the masterpoint to minimize extension if one bolt fails? Although I do realize this would place you a bit further down and maybe too low to comfortably thread the rope through. To stay higher on the system and closer to the anchor, I suppose you could have also clipped both legs of the quad above the limiter knots instead of just one. Why not do that also?
Not criticizing your technique just wondering the reasoning behind it, thanks!
i think because it’s a double length. if you were using a 60cm sling, you could clip the master and be just as close to the bolts as he is with this setup.
you are right, if left bolt fail i worry about the capacity of the static sling to resist to that fall, probably ok but use of a sling must normally be done without any potential big shock. Personally I tends to double my self with the addition of a quickdraw clipped in the middle section of my lanyard to the other bolt or very close. Very good video in general, just don t like the application of the rappel without extension, at least he show well the potential problem.
At 4:00 in the case of an anchor made up of two draws, you say you need a draw on each bolt because they are separate draws. But wouldn’t it still be redundant to use a single draw attached at the end of both draws?
Best video out there explaining best practice
I feel like the only big thing that's missing from this video is that you should weight test your anchor system before going off Belay to make sure everything is solid.
This is really an outstanding vid. The only question I have - realizing it's an instruction demo where a Quad step-up disclaimer may have been made about the carabiners used for the demo - why lockers are not used to secure the Quad.
Funny- never knew this video was posted until a client sent me the link today :) I just answered the same question above with an almost identical answer. Nice job!
I'm confused when you say, "I will never trust my life to a piece of gear I don't own, like a bolt"
But, by clipping into your anchor, which is attached to the bolts, aren't you still trusting your life to the bolts? And by top roping on that quad, aren't you still trusting those bolts with your life? AND by rapping off the bolts, aren't you still trusting the bolts?
I believe he was using that comment to iterate why he backs everything up.
@@SkiPlayLiveTV if that left bolt blows then the quad would be significantly shock loaded. At least clip into the master point
Yea I totally had the same thoughts. I'd have clipped directly to a bolt or a link.
That’s what I thought like bro that’s literally what you do the entire climb then you’re rappelling and are like “nope don’t trust it.”
@@tylernguyen7891 By being on the quad, he's attached to both bolts. He's basically saying he wouldn't trust his life to a SINGLE piece of equipment he doesn't own. He's using 2.
love it, just on the last one, why not put the belayer system most far from the bucle?
like that no risk that the prussik knot go to the belayer system
Awesome thanks
Welcome 😊
Is that anna pfaff?
I'm here to learn, both hands off the rappel device relying on your backup doesn't seem right. Am I crazy?
Yes agree, as he made clear though if you have a serious problem like a rock knocking you out, it's better to have the safety prussik/autoblock in place. Better than nothing for sure. It doesn't mean you can stop for a picnic, but as he said if you have to stop, you can tie in a 'catastrophe knot' to stop the rappel temporarily. The problem is if you look at the statistics, a lot of accidents at top grades of climbing are during the rappel down. So it was a good spot you're definitely not crazy, what is crazy is having all that bolted kit and double safe set up, then relying only on one sweaty hand for your entire descent! There are a lot of rappel/abseil vids on here, I think this is a really good one. Safe climbing buddy.
Thanks
Consider a prusik loop above the rappel device for a third method for a backup.
one above and one below? That's pretty cumbersome especially since I extend the atc.
Is there another knot you could use in the nylon sling that would have the same redundancy but be easier to untie after being loaded? Like an alpine butterfly knot? This would use more material and take more skill to tie, I know. But if there’s a similar knot for webbing that doesn’t cinch as much under load, it might be worth considering?
Don't think they understood your question. A good way is to use a double locking quickdraw from your belt to belay device, and then a prussic from the biner in your harness to the rope underneath the belay device. This prevents the prussic from coming in contact with the bottom of the belay device and being ineffective. Also eliminates the sling altogether. No knocks. And faster.
Lyric Derbin very nice:) I like. You could still use the longer sling to build and clean your gear, but use the QD with a double lock as your rappel extension.
Ski. Play. Live. TV But that is an interesting thought on building an anchor. Does sound like you would be adding complexity to you setup and routine. More shit to F up. I probably would want to use that either, but it might be worth knowing how to do it. Another tool in your box and all.
Shouldn’t the original anchor carabiners be clipped UNDERNEATH the existing gear to avoid it getting pinched?
Are you Ryan Renalds dad?
Great video, thanks for the video!
Where is this?
Red Rock National Conservation Area near Vegas
great video, one question hope someone could help me with. In the video, the main attachment point to the harness is the webbing with an overhand knot, with 1 inch tumbler webbing, how strong is that particular point?
The rappel carabiner is attached to the webbing on both sides of that overhand knot and the webbing is attached to my harness via a girth hitch. The webbing is rated at 22kn but the overhand will weaken that slightly. Still more strength than you would ever generate while rappelling. I do inspect and replace these slings more often than any of my other gear because they are a single point of attachment for myself and my clients lives.
Is that crag "Meet up wall" in Red Rock Canyon
Ski. Play. Live. TV What an awesome place to climb. The 5.10 there on the far end is a beast.
I know this is at Red Rock Canyon area, but what crag is this?
Just out of curiosity..Is this the "meet up wall? in Red Rocks?
Thank you for the video btw...very informational.....Red Rocks is amazing, it was my first time just recent!
I need classes on Repelling are you located in San Antonio?
Doug is in Las Vegas, NV, but these guys might be able to help you- www.texasclimberscoalition.org/
This guy knows what he's talking about.
And who placed that anchor on the ground?
It's obviously there for teaching purposes.
Antigravity climbing.
Why can you not run your auto-block and your rappel device off of your belay loop?
My only problem with rappelling off is that you have to come off belay to rappel. If you get lowered, you can always stay on belay.
Basically Mike Barter.
Mike Barter is the man!
This guy is fantastic! Fuck.
Ha Ha !!!!!!!!!! He and I did Rainbow Mtn. without the ledges 11 years ago............ Good guy then........
Try investing in a rope bag... might keep the sand off the rope. just sayin
He was speaking a foreign language to me. Complex stuff.
Climbing, like skiing, has it's own language but once you get involved in the sport you easily figure it out. Too bad when they ask you to put languages on your resume you can't add "climbing". lol
I just wish the cameraman kept the camera on his hands, not his face all the time.
@@SkiPlayLiveTV haha, cheers! I'm not a native speaker so for me it's hard to understand what he means without seeing what his hands are doing ^^;
Since AMGA now officially recommends to lower vs rappel, this video should probably have a disclosure of the preferred method
The AMGA does not officially recommend one method over another. They generally advocate to pick the most appropriate method given the individual circumstances. More importantly to completely understand any system/method/item you use and also their modes of failure
Unless I'm missing something the carabiners holding the rope on the quad are clipped to all four strands - instead of two - totally wrong and unsafe - WTF?
Dave Owen it looks like the first one is clipped to two strands and the second is clipped to the other two strands, which would make it redundant. hard to tell without a closer look but that’s how i’ve always used quad anchors.
your quickdraws are over the chains dude...
that is one loud camera lens
Tell me about it! I sold the Canon on ebay and bought myself a Sony a6400. Silent autofocus is the only way to go.
Ski. Play. Live. TV good for you but, it’s not about the brand. Canon has good quiet lenses, just to clarify.
No way to avoid the clicking if you use the autofocus on the Rebel T6i.
That's pretty bad!!! the anchor isn't made on screw lock carabiners!!!
Actually, there are several replies to this exact comment. Please read through!
Man I do waaaaay less when I rappel. Whoops
Good video...but, HELMETS!
We probably should have had them on as soon as we got to the crag but the space was wide open and we weren't climbing yet.
That auto focus is pretty annoying. Good vid though.
It drove me nuts as well, that's why I sold the camera on ebay and nabbed a Sony a6400!! I LOVE IT> amzn.to/2PP1puu
Terrible advice. So many things wrong, starting with attaching your pas to a single point of the anchor. Take this video off you tube.
So your less safe in order to save money...? I dont get it. I would just buy new and keep all safe
should always use locking biners on anchors or two biners with opposed gates - this set up is incorrect
Accepted best practice is to have two opposite and opposed lockers for your masterpoint(where the rope runs through) but lockers are not necessary where your anchor attaches to the bolt hangers as long as there is no potential for something(mainly rock) to push the gate open. Those carabiners really don't move much where the masterpoint is subject to movement and potential for the rope to unscrew the gate.
I always lower off anchors and top rope on them.... quicklinks are replaceable. #nerdpatrol