So this video is kinda expounding upon a tweet I made a few days ago. I noticed just about everything in SF6 is negative on block. 1-2 moves per character maybe that are plus, thats it. Pretty big change from older games in the series. Now is that inherently a bad thing? I don't think it is, but well, lets dig into it with the video and let me know what you think!
So big Roof, expounding upon your other video about the parry mechanic being frame 1 to 2 for perfect parry, do you think all of these moves being -1 or -2 on block might complete replace traditional frame trapping with a new kind of "parry trapping" where you throw out a -2 button on an opponent you've conditioned not to throw tech, then mash parry to catch the button they try to check you with? The numbers seem to add up that way... 🤔👀
I noticed that a lot of the moves are slower on startup, as well. I've watched a handful of videos of people tooling around in the Training Room (in-between interruptions, of course) and even nimble characters like Juri and Kimberly don't have much - if anything - in the way of 3-frame pokes. They really want to you try out different Pokes based on spacing and what your opponent is currently tossing at you. If you're predictable and mindlessly following your "Pressure my Opponent" Flowchart, you're going to eat a Drive Impact or Punish Counter once your opponent catches on that you're spamming something over and over and over, or always "doing X in situation Y". Hopefully this means that the days of Karin spamming That One Kick Move until her opponent guesses wrong and gets tagged by it and hit-confirmed into oblivion will be a thing of the past.
this seems like a doa-esque direction which I would say is likely to be frustrating as hell for alot of players, but ultimately really good for the exact same reasons. In DoA you had to get in your opponents head to enforce a good deal of your pressure because all characters have universal ways of shutting you down otherwise. Ofc im sure with time the playerbase will come upon 5050 situations that ease that mental stress in a match but I don't think these 5050's will be as boring or set in stone. Here's to hoping that these changes--like with DoA-- promotes more player identity with how characters are played.
I'm so excited by this change. Imagine a world where players actually go back and forth instead of being trapped in block chains. I just hope they commit to this strategy. If being plus is rare in this game, I can imagine them eventually adding a character that uniquely could have those options, and I don't really want them to. :)
its not actually like that, dont forget the drive-rush will become more and more proeminent, and you can rapid-fire lights and thats creates "plus" frames by been canceled into each other, i labbed and used this a lot in matches so it really works, i thing its just no free plus frames as in SFV, plus frames will have more commitment and you will have to set them up, will actually increase the gap between new and seasoned players because will be more complicated to get them but they are definetely there
This change actually has me more excited than any other. I just play Tekken, and this way is more intuitive to me. Looking forward to SF 6 even more now!
On the cage fight stage, to the left of the Metro City banner, you can see Retsu, or at least somebody bearing a suspiciously strong resemblance to Retsu.
I think it's interesting that most normals are no longer plus (except 1 per character), this means pressure won't last as long, unless you're a rushdown character and/or are willing to spend drive on a drive rush. It's a nice change of pace, considering SF5 was more offense-focused, dare I mention SF2 especially going back to it! Strong offensive tools still exist in SF6, but so do things like "Punish Counters" to reward good defense!
It's another facet of "pretty much everything in his game is risk/reward". In this, it's "You wanna be Plus? Gotta spend some resources!" It will hopefully alleviate the SF5 "my turn, you're stuck in a block string, now it's your turn, and I'm stuck in a block string" cycle, as well.
It makes things more unpredictable and incentivizes what old SF is all about; footsies/distance and poking. I love sf6, being included for the beta was one of the coolest things ive had the opportunity to do in gaming, and I was very surprised at how well the netcode and matchup system worked. I couldn’t even watch replays or visit the merch store, because I kept getting ranked matches! And they *worked!* (somewhere woolie is shedding a tear.) only high ping I had was against a dude from the UK, at least I think. It was in his name. I’m on the East Coast US and played my server. All qol systems aside, the game is super fun. I mained Ken and the combos got me so hype. target punches into dragonlash into dp was super satisfying and surprisingly simple, but theres still a just frame learning curve for arcsys/anime players or kof snk players like me. All the characters shocked me. Kimberly has targets from l to h. Juri is super op and annoying but a blast to play. Ryu and ken feel more unique than ever in comparison, and ryu is good again! Chun li has an anti air that works really well and her combos are mean! Luke needs to put shoes on but is super fun to play, he has common sense shoto combos that will vibe with beginners and legacies all around. Guile is guile, but in the best way. Bait people into getting flash kicked with booms. And jamie... well jamie has everything. Charges, commands, installs, and sick combos. Jamie will be the most stylish character by far. Whats not to he happy about??? Im more excited for sf6 than any upcoming release period.
I think this philosophy might be a away to follow up the new approach to meter. In previous games you almost needed to use resources to be defensive, which in turn you get by being defensive over time or by starting out offensive. In sf6 you *can* use meter to be defensive, but the bigger idea is you need to offensive with it, which is enforced by the fact that we start with full bar now.
Next video barring any news popping up should just be my overall thoughts about the beta experience, might be a longer video? Ill try to go over basically everything I can think of from gameplay to mechanics to netcode(its good!) to whatever else pops in my head. Long story short though SF6 pretty cool, sincerely hope there is an Open beta so everyone can get their hands on it before the launch, and so I can get a character or two who actually fit my playstyle vs who was in this beta lol
With the fact that the only comeback factor in the game is just a little bit of extra damage on your lvl 3-- I imagine there will be a lot of hype moments and comebacks that aren't/don't feel manufactured.
This is what makes SF6 so great. It caters to the neutral game and the poking game and minimizes the endless frametraps that made SFV feel like a turn based RPG instead of a fighting game.
It's crazy and wild. The implications of this change can heavily affect the character archetypes too more or less. Man, i really really can't wait to lab this game out. Glad to see you had fun man!
I was fortunate enough to play the beta and I for one liked this. The match flow felt much better than previous iterations. Overall the flow of the match felt more natural as opposed to sitting there and waiting for a turn that may never come.
One of my favorite thing about the game so far is that neutral is more than just poking now. Meter management isn't just for extending blockstrings anymore it's crucial to have meter for your pokes and drive impacts and parries to control and optimize neutral but also having to make split decisions on risk reward if fully cashing out is worth going into or close to burnout. Also love that you need to be exotic and unpredictable about using drive gauge if you want to keep up pressure and turns because the mechanics can get punished so damn hard and take much more commitment. No more bailing out of anything unsafe with a simple vtrigger activation that you needed to activate anyway.
@@-8h- I think it's the opposite. That might happen at first or at lower levels, but the pros were already showing cool dirty tricks like following raw drive rush with overhead/throw mix and even baiting reactions to follow with perfect parry or DI. Once ppl optimize shenanigans with good meter management I think we'll get to see all the defensive AND offensive options the game truly offers.
We'll still have meaties and drive rush so I imagine there will still be plenty of pressure. I anticipate a lot of old school MK style exchanges where folks whiff punish with sweeps and apply pressure on wakeup. Lots of button into drive rush into button into throw. Probably folks getting a read on how often you counter-poke after they hit you with a -1 button and catching you with a perfect parry, into knockdown pressure, into more drive rush pressure.
opinion: i get the meme that like "everybody wants the Grounded Footsies-Based Fighter" but fuck man i'm getting too old for these high APM games with massive power levels across the board and this game seems like it's more like something i'd want. of course i didn't get into the beta so i could be dead wrong about game speed/power but games like KOF are starting to get tough for me to play with everything being plus/safe/whatever. moreover if it's really like "you block? it's your turn now" i think that's a VERY good thing for newer/casual players since it lets them actually play the game yknow. nobody likes being on the other end of a single-player game
Imho this is a fair trade. People don’t like crush counter, stubby normals, and plus on-block all day in SF V. So now they got what they asked for and if they want some plus on-block pressure / frame trap then they need to use Drive Rush / Impact. Don’t like spending resources for plus on-block then they should learn frame data to do Punish Counter. But i can see some people gonna complaining a lot about this, call the game garbage, and then quit 🤣 . Already seen some people complaining about Drive Impact, called it broken, and ask Capcom to nerf it 🤣
Personally not having any normals that are Plus make the game a little more interesting. Or at least to me. Edit: As if everything is plus+ then nothing is plus.
As a life long Zangief main, I feel like this is going to be SPD city. Block nearly anything, buffer SPD coming out of block stun. Unless they give the SPD huge startup frames (which would defeat the purpose of a command throw), it's going to beat a LOT of stuff to the draw, and people will be pissed. I suspect this is why Zangief is the only one of the original eight we haven't seen. They're trying to figure out how to balance him.
SPD has been sadly increasing in startup every game, I hope they don’t make it even slower. 5 frames in SFV already made it hard to tick into unless you used specific ticks
Yeah not sure how many frames it takes to start a jump, but if f it’s not too much, the current 5 frames should be enough. Just enough for the player in offence to be able to jump if they read a grab coming, but not enough that they can react to it
@@i.ftekhar usually players get grab invul on the first frame of the jump startup, so it actually doesnt matter how long is the cg startup if u have to guess. it could become reactable if it's too slow tho
I think the punish counter plays into this. If the attacker is -1 and the person blocking challenges with a 3 frame (or whatever the fastest button is) then the attacker can wait or shimmy to get get a strong punish counter. This gives the person defending a better chance then 5, but I think the threat of punish counter should make mashing not as strong as it seems at first glance
This is exactly how people were playing on the last day doing micro walk backs to crush counters and conditioning people to not press buttons. Mashing gets you killed half the time tbh, you really have to press it in the appropriate time especially due to the buffers, they just come out regardless, even if its more than 1 sec later which I hope they tweak. It's more akin to older fighting games which were more neutral based instead of the old attack until you're out of range with frametraps in the middle type of gameplay.
I remember when dbfz dropped and you posted a guide on mechanics; your tips have definitely shortened a lot of the learning. Happy to see that you’re doing the same with sf6. Def excited to get my copy
We're seeing this a lot in modern games. Remember when it was Under Night's whole deal? lol. But yeah I can see why their doing this they're probably trying to avoid the true blockstrings of old where you had to sit and block or be privileged enough to have a DP or reversal it's mostly good as it increases interactivity on both sides.
They did an amazing job with this one actually. Cheers to Capcom. The characters and the mechanics look good. Fresh ideas mixed with older ones. Looks pretty balance imo. Juri is amazing as well. Ken is no pushover. Ryu seems great, I just had a problem on seeing him whiff his jump in. Not sure the hitbox changed because of how he kicks now with his leg more upwards.. Jamie is definitely a good character. Guile seems great. Kimberly seems good. Not sure on how great she will be. But she seems solid at first glance. Chun Li is great too. I haven't seen all of what they bring to the table. So opinions may shift overtime. But so far, I have seen some good stuff here and there. Also the technology that is being produced by players are starting to show as well.
From what I understand, the Drive Gauge is needed for maintaining pressure. Which means you're spending a replenishable but crucial resource for it, meaning pressure is a strategic choice, which I like.
This might create an interesting situation with parry because people will figure out the timing of instant mash and prefect parry that. So being -1 and -2 isn't going to be as much of a disadvantage.
Honestly I think this is a change that'll be either a positive or a negative for this game. Street fighter is notorious for always having very difficult and obnoxiously strong normals in every entry, so this is definitely a different change of pace that honestly I am all for. It just further encourages use of the system instead of the normals, which I think is definitely a very different and kinda unique thing for sf
I really like negative pressure in anime fighters because you can always cancel into something else to make your pressure ambiguous, but SF6 relying on links makes very unlikely. Pressure is probably going to be about delayed buttons to try and catch the recovery of the opponent mashing on their plus frames instead. Hence the focus on Punish Counter instead of the usual Counterhit, since those typically rely on positive pressure.
Sf6 devs are trying to make it easier ( no surprise ) to break away from preasure by the looks of it, since most of them are neg. Before 6, you'd have to be more precise with your counter or risk getting hit because of the way your opp offensive works.
Honestly compared to SFV chun probably weaker, but thats just with 3 days practice. Stance seems very hard to use correctly as seemingly anything you can do with it can just get mashed out of for free. One fun thing about stance though is it removes all charge timing, so kikoken or SBK is free to do, just tap the directions no charge needed.
I’m no SFV historian so I might be getting this a little bit wrong (sorry if that is the case). But this difference in approach to design makes sense to me as a way of making invincible reversals a little less essential on defence. Not that they won’t be good, but that in early SFV when meterless reversals existed it really separated the characters into those who had them and those that did not. Now, with really oppressive offence being reliant on the attackers resources it seems like you wont ‘need’ invincibility as much to get out.
Of course everything is negative, they want you to use that drive gauge. That's why it's available from the start and constantly recharges. This is not like V-gauge in SFV or Ultra meter in SF4, it is a vital resource you are going to need to do a lot of things.
i feel like ppl don't understand the full gravity of this change and are simply excited cuz its new. But i hope as time moves on ppl don't start complaining about this and sf6 stays this way cuz, as of the beta, game is extremely neutral heavy and i love it.
Another huge change about how you pressure in this game is whether or not the normal is cancelable and how risky having gaps in your pressure is. If you meaty with a non special cancelable normal but they drive impact, you will get smoked. For example, often in the past you might meaty with a cr.lk because it hits low. If you do that in SF6, you can get blown up by wake up DI due to cr.lk not being special cancelable. On the flip side many cr.lp are special cancelable, in that same situation, you would be able to cancel your cr.lp into your own drive impact to beat their drive impact. This also applies to frame traps and pressure with gaps, as any gap could have your opponent drive impact which may render your offensive significantly less effectively. For example, cr.mp > hadouken for Ryu has a gap in it, and against a player who recognizes it, they can drive impact the gap and get the crumple.
Good points, but if you meaty with a light and the opponent does DI you can just do two more lights to break the armor, or cancel the second light into a special
@@plannedtuna8293 It works in theory, but in practice, I never got the third light out in time in the beta. I was only ever able to break it using st.lp x3 when playing Kimberly.
@@Rhapsdos You don't need to cancel anything because lights are super fast and have no pushback, you can literally just grab in that situation, parry, or DI back. With kimberly I was able to break it with cr.lk, lp,lp, and even her target combo sometimes, but it did seem inconsistent, so I just grabbed or DI'ed back.
I welcome this change it gives players room to breathe and think about options, in SFV you can't really do that, even if you tech a throw they just dash forward and try again and again the thirst is real, if you don't have upper hand there is nothing you can do about it, and also as an attacker you can't really stop, you have to pin them down which it can also be exhausting and not very interesting.
I noticed this really fast with my first matches as i was getting hit out and mashed in every single block string and even kens st. Hk spaced was minus
I personally don't like this change I found it really frustrating. I was ridiculously aggravated during the whole beta and walked away after the second day.
To me, it makes much more sense, intuitively, for most moves to be negative on block. It creates far more opportunities for the back and forth gameplay that make matches more engaging.
I mean, just because you blocked something minus doesn't always mean it's your turn. There's the startup frames of your own buttons to consider, so perhaps sometimes the best option would be an attempt to return to neutral rather than retaliation for a blocked minus.
Interesting I didn't think they would change up what's plus after all this time Once again this makes me excited to see the other characters. Fang hitting two times, his poison and being plus a lot of the time was scary. With Aki probably being dlc I wonder what she would be like
This is interesting. Reminds me of tekken frames where nearly everything is minus on block but you can side step and duck under moves etc (details will be too long) so i wonder how sf6 pressure will work, can’t wait to try out the new system, so far it’s looking solid.
You forgot something very important thing for the meta, which is chains ! For instance, jab jab is a chain that will frame trap opponents, thus a way to get a counter hit combo. So, pressure with normals will be a mix up situation where the "conversation" between players doesn't end.
Lord Knight had a video talking about games balanced around plus frames and minus frames over a year ago and it seems even street fighter has made the switch
The man the myth the legend! Roflemonger back at it again with the juicy details that elevate my fighting decisions. Thanks for the education good sir!
it make sense considering we have Drive rush and Drive impact + full meter for EXes on the start of each round. Not to mention the tech throw is basically resetting the game into the neutral which implied the game wont be filled with so many meterless block-string.
If I'm understanding what you are saying correctly I am even more excited for this game. I've been very casual to fighting games for years trying to learn in a very established landscape already and getting stuck in a corner unable to do anything forever until I die is usually the way it goes. This sounds like I can exchange some pressure while still learning which is very awesome!
I'm going to predict that day 1 low rank SF6 is going to be mashing drive impact whenever you've blocked anything. Source: I am a scrub and will be mashing drive impact whenever I block anything
They need to leave DI untouched. I hope SF6 MOSTLY takes the approach of "Here's our game! If you don't like it, don't play it. Don't demand for us to change our game, because we can't make everybody happy at the same time. Making certain changes will compromise the creative integrity we aimed for. The last time we listened to SFV players' suggestions and concerns, it eventually ruined the game overall. So please, just trust us with our decisions and enjoy the new game we've had so much fun developing." SF6 Dev Team
I find this change a really interesting response to a long time scrub quote, that blocking should stop everything but blocking too much is cheap. They are making blocking as good as people want it to be at the cost of a real resource that limits your response or ability to block forever. It's like a RISC gauge that's more integrated into gameplay. Honestly everything I see about this game makes me more impressed by it.
@@rooflemonger Respectfully, that is not the case. Chained light attacks are frame traps in SF6 as of the beta. The gap is 3F or less because their fastest button (4f) will get counter-hit.
Imo as a SF3 fan, I love the pressure that specifically Ryu gets in that game. His pressure is pretty straight forward in neutral and can be varied highly to keep pressure going. However, it can get to a point that if the pressure will need to be escaped with tight timing and sometimes risky moves. Having all normals be minus I think is a good idea for starters. Allows pressure to be kept to a minimum and players won’t get tight and possibly upset as a result. Cancelling into specials wouldn’t be a big deal since it would more than likely push the player far enough into neutral unless it’s something like hashogeki, and the counter pressure buttons could be delayed if ever for the sake of blocking a cancel into special moves. Whenever I’m cornered by a Ryu in SF3, I tend to get tightened up and I physically hold my breath sometimes. Idk if much of that is right, but that’s just my way of thinking 😅 However something I’ve always disliked it sweep being punishable at all ranges instead of up close range. That’s always annoyed me in sf5 and more than likely will in sf6. Edit: I use 3rd strike as an example cause that’s the game I know best
In OG games (sf2, alpha) everything was plus but strings were short because there was so much pushback. I think they're trying to recapture that feeling. Game feels a bit like MK though
This probably has a lot to do with why burnout feels so punishing (besides no drive moves). All those buttons that ended the opponent's offense before suddenly turn into frame traps.
Being able to play the beta myself I thought the game was very well polished for a beta. Any more plus frames and the lockdown in the corner including Drive Impact pressure would be too much. I believe at the moment it’s very balanced fun and the high level matches are EXTREMELY fun to watch the new drive system leaves so much room for creativity across the board.
this explains why drive impact is so cheap, so that you can use it to stop it against mashers who are overextending. Also, is that gonna effect how tick throws work ?
i think overall you're right... But I've seen some play of high skilled players...and I think that ppl will still be "locked down" in SF6. Some char's can produce really decent block strings since many have target combos too...
Given how powerful and diverse the new universal mechanics are it makes sense that most everything is minus. There is also pretty major pushback on a lot of moves from what we saw in the beta. Drive rush alone would make plus buttons extremely hard to deal with that I would imagine would turn off a lot of newer players. This is not even thinking about the other universal mechanics and meter. Frame traps with universal parries and the option selects that will be found would really front load a lot of the learning necessary to even play the game against someone aware of these things. Minimizing the baseline learning curve for frame data is a really smart choice overall for this game.
For the moment I like this game a lot more than the previous one. Even the things you're commenting on this video looks better than before to me. I hope Capcom won't change it just because some people cry about some things.
I thi k this ks a good change because most fighting games i played , if you fight aginst a person thats like decent at block strings and stuff, it feels like you cant do anything
Hey! I also got the impression the there were A LOT more trades, now i understand why :D While testing the characters i noticed there are no 3f moves in SF6, fastest button across the beta cast was 4f. Are there any consequences to this change? I truly don't understand if this would have any impact on how matches unfold.
The change is universal far as I can tell on the 4f thing, might be even as simple as to improve quality of netplay, when the fastest move is just a bit slower, easier to keep games in snyc
it's a bit more like tekken usually you have the fastest paunch which is positiv on bloc and that's it almost or you have pressure type character or even you can just duck or sidestep or what ever interesting
Starting to play Street Fighter after other games I was always incredibly confused about why everything seemed to be plus on block... When moves in other games are plus they're ether slow and designed to punish too passive play, or if they're fast they have some other counter to them. I never really liked Street Fighter very much.. watching it, it always looked like dudes were just booping the opponent with light pokes repeatedly while the opponent was just standing there waiting for them to get pushed out.
@@rooflemonger yea me too..I am more of a grappler like r.mika and Laura but her design, mannerism and looks are just fantastic..can't wait for Manon, Cammy and deejay.
How is the pushback on block compared to other Street Fighter games? SF2, Alpha series, CVS2, whatever, these games had plenty of +1000 OB moves, but it didn't really matter since you had non-trivial push.
So this video is kinda expounding upon a tweet I made a few days ago. I noticed just about everything in SF6 is negative on block. 1-2 moves per character maybe that are plus, thats it. Pretty big change from older games in the series. Now is that inherently a bad thing? I don't think it is, but well, lets dig into it with the video and let me know what you think!
So big Roof, expounding upon your other video about the parry mechanic being frame 1 to 2 for perfect parry, do you think all of these moves being -1 or -2 on block might complete replace traditional frame trapping with a new kind of "parry trapping" where you throw out a -2 button on an opponent you've conditioned not to throw tech, then mash parry to catch the button they try to check you with? The numbers seem to add up that way... 🤔👀
I noticed that a lot of the moves are slower on startup, as well. I've watched a handful of videos of people tooling around in the Training Room (in-between interruptions, of course) and even nimble characters like Juri and Kimberly don't have much - if anything - in the way of 3-frame pokes. They really want to you try out different Pokes based on spacing and what your opponent is currently tossing at you. If you're predictable and mindlessly following your "Pressure my Opponent" Flowchart, you're going to eat a Drive Impact or Punish Counter once your opponent catches on that you're spamming something over and over and over, or always "doing X in situation Y".
Hopefully this means that the days of Karin spamming That One Kick Move until her opponent guesses wrong and gets tagged by it and hit-confirmed into oblivion will be a thing of the past.
this seems like a doa-esque direction which I would say is likely to be frustrating as hell for alot of players, but ultimately really good for the exact same reasons.
In DoA you had to get in your opponents head to enforce a good deal of your pressure because all characters have universal ways of shutting you down otherwise. Ofc im sure with time the playerbase will come upon 5050 situations that ease that mental stress in a match but I don't think these 5050's will be as boring or set in stone. Here's to hoping that these changes--like with DoA-- promotes more player identity with how characters are played.
I like that burnout is where everything can turn into a frame trap. Makes getting burned out a really scary thing that can happen.
@@phantomcyrano yeah fishing for a parry/Drive impact seems to be the idea after you are negative to catch whatever they toss out next.
I'm so excited by this change. Imagine a world where players actually go back and forth instead of being trapped in block chains. I just hope they commit to this strategy. If being plus is rare in this game, I can imagine them eventually adding a character that uniquely could have those options, and I don't really want them to. :)
*Dudley entered the chat*
its not actually like that, dont forget the drive-rush will become more and more proeminent, and you can rapid-fire lights and thats creates "plus" frames by been canceled into each other, i labbed and used this a lot in matches so it really works, i thing its just no free plus frames as in SFV, plus frames will have more commitment and you will have to set them up, will actually increase the gap between new and seasoned players because will be more complicated to get them but they are definetely there
Drive rush wants a word.
@@gallo123 crawss cowntah
@TBA it works for Tekken 🤷🏽♂️
This change actually has me more excited than any other. I just play Tekken, and this way is more intuitive to me. Looking forward to SF 6 even more now!
Same here…. Didn’t realize normals were so often plus in previous street fighters
As a soul calibur player I’m all for this as well
I love how Guile is watching the fight from the sidelines! *SNK don't let Capcom bring back characters on the sidelines before you! *
ya'll be saying the dumbest shit in the comments
On the cage fight stage, to the left of the Metro City banner, you can see Retsu, or at least somebody bearing a suspiciously strong resemblance to Retsu.
They just can't
@@DFloyd84 Ohhhh thanks for sharing!
@@PiccoloNamexio It’s just not right. 😂
I think it's interesting that most normals are no longer plus (except 1 per character), this means pressure won't last as long, unless you're a rushdown character and/or are willing to spend drive on a drive rush. It's a nice change of pace, considering SF5 was more offense-focused, dare I mention SF2 especially going back to it! Strong offensive tools still exist in SF6, but so do things like "Punish Counters" to reward good defense!
It's another facet of "pretty much everything in his game is risk/reward".
In this, it's "You wanna be Plus? Gotta spend some resources!" It will hopefully alleviate the SF5 "my turn, you're stuck in a block string, now it's your turn, and I'm stuck in a block string" cycle, as well.
It makes things more unpredictable and incentivizes what old SF is all about; footsies/distance and poking. I love sf6, being included for the beta was one of the coolest things ive had the opportunity to do in gaming, and I was very surprised at how well the netcode and matchup system worked. I couldn’t even watch replays or visit the merch store, because I kept getting ranked matches! And they *worked!* (somewhere woolie is shedding a tear.) only high ping I had was against a dude from the UK, at least I think. It was in his name. I’m on the East Coast US and played my server. All qol systems aside, the game is super fun. I mained Ken and the combos got me so hype. target punches into dragonlash into dp was super satisfying and surprisingly simple, but theres still a just frame learning curve for arcsys/anime players or kof snk players like me. All the characters shocked me. Kimberly has targets from l to h. Juri is super op and annoying but a blast to play. Ryu and ken feel more unique than ever in comparison, and ryu is good again! Chun li has an anti air that works really well and her combos are mean! Luke needs to put shoes on but is super fun to play, he has common sense shoto combos that will vibe with beginners and legacies all around. Guile is guile, but in the best way. Bait people into getting flash kicked with booms. And jamie... well jamie has everything. Charges, commands, installs, and sick combos. Jamie will be the most stylish character by far. Whats not to he happy about??? Im more excited for sf6 than any upcoming release period.
I think this philosophy might be a away to follow up the new approach to meter.
In previous games you almost needed to use resources to be defensive, which in turn you get by being defensive over time or by starting out offensive.
In sf6 you *can* use meter to be defensive, but the bigger idea is you need to offensive with it, which is enforced by the fact that we start with full bar now.
Next video barring any news popping up should just be my overall thoughts about the beta experience, might be a longer video? Ill try to go over basically everything I can think of from gameplay to mechanics to netcode(its good!) to whatever else pops in my head. Long story short though SF6 pretty cool, sincerely hope there is an Open beta so everyone can get their hands on it before the launch, and so I can get a character or two who actually fit my playstyle vs who was in this beta lol
I hope SF 6 brings back the hype that SF 4 had in professional matches.
With the fact that the only comeback factor in the game is just a little bit of extra damage on your lvl 3-- I imagine there will be a lot of hype moments and comebacks that aren't/don't feel manufactured.
I love playing sfv, but watching professional sf4 is just mmmmm mmmm so good.
SF5 killed the hype tbh and i hated it
Hell, I'm hyped for most of the "non-professional" Beta footage.
@@philip1718 I turned off evo every year when sf5 came on. It just did not bring the hype like tekken or kof does.
This is a relief from Block Stun Fighter 5. At least in Street Fighter 4 you had focus attack and FADC
But then again you also had vortexes bleh. Still love the game though lol
I reckon this means you're going to have to know frame data on block and parry and be paying attention to the opponent's defence.
Of course
Wait!!! DSP said everything was plus on block!! (When his opponent attacks of course)
DSP unfortunately makes up frame data in his head as he goes
@@rooflemonger That's why we love him!
This is what makes SF6 so great. It caters to the neutral game and the poking game and minimizes the endless frametraps that made SFV feel like a turn based RPG instead of a fighting game.
It's crazy and wild. The implications of this change can heavily affect the character archetypes too more or less. Man, i really really can't wait to lab this game out. Glad to see you had fun man!
I was fortunate enough to play the beta and I for one liked this. The match flow felt much better than previous iterations. Overall the flow of the match felt more natural as opposed to sitting there and waiting for a turn that may never come.
I think its great. Turns change constantly and almost all of my matches were exciting.
One of my favorite thing about the game so far is that neutral is more than just poking now. Meter management isn't just for extending blockstrings anymore it's crucial to have meter for your pokes and drive impacts and parries to control and optimize neutral but also having to make split decisions on risk reward if fully cashing out is worth going into or close to burnout.
Also love that you need to be exotic and unpredictable about using drive gauge if you want to keep up pressure and turns because the mechanics can get punished so damn hard and take much more commitment. No more bailing out of anything unsafe with a simple vtrigger activation that you needed to activate anyway.
@@-8h- I think it's the opposite. That might happen at first or at lower levels, but the pros were already showing cool dirty tricks like following raw drive rush with overhead/throw mix and even baiting reactions to follow with perfect parry or DI. Once ppl optimize shenanigans with good meter management I think we'll get to see all the defensive AND offensive options the game truly offers.
We'll still have meaties and drive rush so I imagine there will still be plenty of pressure. I anticipate a lot of old school MK style exchanges where folks whiff punish with sweeps and apply pressure on wakeup. Lots of button into drive rush into button into throw. Probably folks getting a read on how often you counter-poke after they hit you with a -1 button and catching you with a perfect parry, into knockdown pressure, into more drive rush pressure.
opinion: i get the meme that like "everybody wants the Grounded Footsies-Based Fighter" but fuck man i'm getting too old for these high APM games with massive power levels across the board and this game seems like it's more like something i'd want. of course i didn't get into the beta so i could be dead wrong about game speed/power but games like KOF are starting to get tough for me to play with everything being plus/safe/whatever.
moreover if it's really like "you block? it's your turn now" i think that's a VERY good thing for newer/casual players since it lets them actually play the game yknow. nobody likes being on the other end of a single-player game
Imho this is a fair trade. People don’t like crush counter, stubby normals, and plus on-block all day in SF V. So now they got what they asked for and if they want some plus on-block pressure / frame trap then they need to use Drive Rush / Impact. Don’t like spending resources for plus on-block then they should learn frame data to do Punish Counter. But i can see some people gonna complaining a lot about this, call the game garbage, and then quit 🤣 . Already seen some people complaining about Drive Impact, called it broken, and ask Capcom to nerf it 🤣
I kinda like it better like this because it's a constant back and forth until someone gets a hit confirmed 🍉
Personally not having any normals that are Plus make the game a little more interesting. Or at least to me. Edit: As if everything is plus+ then nothing is plus.
No it could mean faster and long range normals are less plus than long start up and short range normals
As a life long Zangief main, I feel like this is going to be SPD city. Block nearly anything, buffer SPD coming out of block stun. Unless they give the SPD huge startup frames (which would defeat the purpose of a command throw), it's going to beat a LOT of stuff to the draw, and people will be pissed. I suspect this is why Zangief is the only one of the original eight we haven't seen. They're trying to figure out how to balance him.
SPD has been sadly increasing in startup every game, I hope they don’t make it even slower. 5 frames in SFV already made it hard to tick into unless you used specific ticks
Yeah not sure how many frames it takes to start a jump, but if f it’s not too much, the current 5 frames should be enough. Just enough for the player in offence to be able to jump if they read a grab coming, but not enough that they can react to it
@@i.ftekhar usually players get grab invul on the first frame of the jump startup, so it actually doesnt matter how long is the cg startup if u have to guess. it could become reactable if it's too slow tho
@@cerdi_99 shouldn't be too bad, usually around 15 frames is the edge of human reaction if you're specifically looking for that thing.
I think the punish counter plays into this. If the attacker is -1 and the person blocking challenges with a 3 frame (or whatever the fastest button is) then the attacker can wait or shimmy to get get a strong punish counter. This gives the person defending a better chance then 5, but I think the threat of punish counter should make mashing not as strong as it seems at first glance
This is exactly how people were playing on the last day doing micro walk backs to crush counters and conditioning people to not press buttons. Mashing gets you killed half the time tbh, you really have to press it in the appropriate time especially due to the buffers, they just come out regardless, even if its more than 1 sec later which I hope they tweak. It's more akin to older fighting games which were more neutral based instead of the old attack until you're out of range with frametraps in the middle type of gameplay.
I remember when dbfz dropped and you posted a guide on mechanics; your tips have definitely shortened a lot of the learning.
Happy to see that you’re doing the same with sf6. Def excited to get my copy
Yep SF6 will get the full suite of guides when the time comes!
We're seeing this a lot in modern games. Remember when it was Under Night's whole deal? lol. But yeah I can see why their doing this they're probably trying to avoid the true blockstrings of old where you had to sit and block or be privileged enough to have a DP or reversal it's mostly good as it increases interactivity on both sides.
They did an amazing job with this one actually. Cheers to Capcom. The characters and the mechanics look good. Fresh ideas mixed with older ones. Looks pretty balance imo. Juri is amazing as well. Ken is no pushover. Ryu seems great, I just had a problem on seeing him whiff his jump in. Not sure the hitbox changed because of how he kicks now with his leg more upwards.. Jamie is definitely a good character. Guile seems great. Kimberly seems good. Not sure on how great she will be. But she seems solid at first glance. Chun Li is great too. I haven't seen all of what they bring to the table. So opinions may shift overtime. But so far, I have seen some good stuff here and there. Also the technology that is being produced by players are starting to show as well.
From what I understand, the Drive Gauge is needed for maintaining pressure. Which means you're spending a replenishable but crucial resource for it, meaning pressure is a strategic choice, which I like.
Yes no more 30 minute block strings
thank you for the vid. it is extremely helpful. nice job noticing the details of changes between street fighters down to the frame data.
Lights not being plus is gonna throw me for a loop, not gonna lie.
This might create an interesting situation with parry because people will figure out the timing of instant mash and prefect parry that. So being -1 and -2 isn't going to be as much of a disadvantage.
YES no more being trapped in the corner for years by bison if your character with no dp.
Honestly I think this is a change that'll be either a positive or a negative for this game. Street fighter is notorious for always having very difficult and obnoxiously strong normals in every entry, so this is definitely a different change of pace that honestly I am all for. It just further encourages use of the system instead of the normals, which I think is definitely a very different and kinda unique thing for sf
"Either a positive or a negative"
Strong opinions, there
I really like negative pressure in anime fighters because you can always cancel into something else to make your pressure ambiguous, but SF6 relying on links makes very unlikely. Pressure is probably going to be about delayed buttons to try and catch the recovery of the opponent mashing on their plus frames instead.
Hence the focus on Punish Counter instead of the usual Counterhit, since those typically rely on positive pressure.
Sf6 devs are trying to make it easier ( no surprise ) to break away from preasure by the looks of it, since most of them are neg. Before 6, you'd have to be more precise with your counter or risk getting hit because of the way your opp offensive works.
How do you feel about Chun Li's stance/stance moves? Does she feel strong or weaker compared to her past versions?
Honestly compared to SFV chun probably weaker, but thats just with 3 days practice. Stance seems very hard to use correctly as seemingly anything you can do with it can just get mashed out of for free. One fun thing about stance though is it removes all charge timing, so kikoken or SBK is free to do, just tap the directions no charge needed.
I’m no SFV historian so I might be getting this a little bit wrong (sorry if that is the case).
But this difference in approach to design makes sense to me as a way of making invincible reversals a little less essential on defence. Not that they won’t be good, but that in early SFV when meterless reversals existed it really separated the characters into those who had them and those that did not.
Now, with really oppressive offence being reliant on the attackers resources it seems like you wont ‘need’ invincibility as much to get out.
Of course everything is negative, they want you to use that drive gauge. That's why it's available from the start and constantly recharges. This is not like V-gauge in SFV or Ultra meter in SF4, it is a vital resource you are going to need to do a lot of things.
The days of never ending plus frame bison are behind us boys, we must rejoice
Offense is still powerful but in another way because it decreases the drive stuff.
i feel like ppl don't understand the full gravity of this change and are simply excited cuz its new. But i hope as time moves on ppl don't start complaining about this and sf6 stays this way cuz, as of the beta, game is extremely neutral heavy and i love it.
oh no we have to use footsies instead of blockstunning our opponents into the abyss?
Another huge change about how you pressure in this game is whether or not the normal is cancelable and how risky having gaps in your pressure is.
If you meaty with a non special cancelable normal but they drive impact, you will get smoked. For example, often in the past you might meaty with a cr.lk because it hits low. If you do that in SF6, you can get blown up by wake up DI due to cr.lk not being special cancelable. On the flip side many cr.lp are special cancelable, in that same situation, you would be able to cancel your cr.lp into your own drive impact to beat their drive impact.
This also applies to frame traps and pressure with gaps, as any gap could have your opponent drive impact which may render your offensive significantly less effectively. For example, cr.mp > hadouken for Ryu has a gap in it, and against a player who recognizes it, they can drive impact the gap and get the crumple.
Good points, but if you meaty with a light and the opponent does DI you can just do two more lights to break the armor, or cancel the second light into a special
@@plannedtuna8293 It works in theory, but in practice, I never got the third light out in time in the beta. I was only ever able to break it using st.lp x3 when playing Kimberly.
@@Rhapsdos You don't need to cancel anything because lights are super fast and have no pushback, you can literally just grab in that situation, parry, or DI back. With kimberly I was able to break it with cr.lk, lp,lp, and even her target combo sometimes, but it did seem inconsistent, so I just grabbed or DI'ed back.
A glorious thing to think that a frame monster character like Bison won’t happen again (so far) lol.
Regardless, parry changes pressure. Alot of matches I've seen no one used it. But once it gets in the hands of more people. It will be seen often.
I welcome this change it gives players room to breathe and think about options, in SFV you can't really do that, even if you tech a throw they just dash forward and try again and again the thirst is real, if you don't have upper hand there is nothing you can do about it, and also as an attacker you can't really stop, you have to pin them down which it can also be exhausting and not very interesting.
I noticed this really fast with my first matches as i was getting hit out and mashed in every single block string and even kens st. Hk spaced was minus
I personally don't like this change I found it really frustrating. I was ridiculously aggravated during the whole beta and walked away after the second day.
To me, it makes much more sense, intuitively, for most moves to be negative on block. It creates far more opportunities for the back and forth gameplay that make matches more engaging.
but but but.....DSP told me everything is safe!!! WTF Dood!
Still wondering how useful Drive Reversal is, and is going to be in SF6🤔...
I mean, just because you blocked something minus doesn't always mean it's your turn. There's the startup frames of your own buttons to consider, so perhaps sometimes the best option would be an attempt to return to neutral rather than retaliation for a blocked minus.
Interesting I didn't think they would change up what's plus after all this time
Once again this makes me excited to see the other characters. Fang hitting two times, his poison and being plus a lot of the time was scary. With Aki probably being dlc I wonder what she would be like
This is interesting. Reminds me of tekken frames where nearly everything is minus on block but you can side step and duck under moves etc (details will be too long) so i wonder how sf6 pressure will work, can’t wait to try out the new system, so far it’s looking solid.
Sounds like there will be little to no walk up pressure (cr.Mp +frames, walk forward, rinse repeat) in this game
You forgot something very important thing for the meta, which is chains ! For instance, jab jab is a chain that will frame trap opponents, thus a way to get a counter hit combo. So, pressure with normals will be a mix up situation where the "conversation" between players doesn't end.
Lord Knight had a video talking about games balanced around plus frames and minus frames over a year ago and it seems even street fighter has made the switch
The man the myth the legend! Roflemonger back at it again with the juicy details that elevate my fighting decisions. Thanks for the education good sir!
it make sense considering we have Drive rush and Drive impact + full meter for EXes on the start of each round. Not to mention the tech throw is basically resetting the game into the neutral which implied the game wont be filled with so many meterless block-string.
If I'm understanding what you are saying correctly I am even more excited for this game. I've been very casual to fighting games for years trying to learn in a very established landscape already and getting stuck in a corner unable to do anything forever until I die is usually the way it goes. This sounds like I can exchange some pressure while still learning which is very awesome!
In summary means that if you have good defense skills this game will reward you a little more than previous series games,what is great.
Winds of Change 🎵🎶
Now it make sense why I was getting thrown alot, it was never my turn!
I'm going to predict that day 1 low rank SF6 is going to be mashing drive impact whenever you've blocked anything.
Source: I am a scrub and will be mashing drive impact whenever I block anything
They need to leave DI untouched. I hope SF6 MOSTLY takes the approach of "Here's our game! If you don't like it, don't play it. Don't demand for us to change our game, because we can't make everybody happy at the same time. Making certain changes will compromise the creative integrity we aimed for. The last time we listened to SFV players' suggestions and concerns, it eventually ruined the game overall. So please, just trust us with our decisions and enjoy the new game we've had so much fun developing."
SF6 Dev Team
I find this change a really interesting response to a long time scrub quote, that blocking should stop everything but blocking too much is cheap. They are making blocking as good as people want it to be at the cost of a real resource that limits your response or ability to block forever. It's like a RISC gauge that's more integrated into gameplay. Honestly everything I see about this game makes me more impressed by it.
I like this! Lots of neutral, little lockdown
I think you should clarify that chained light attacks are frame traps. I think this video implied that after a blocking a light attack it's your turn.
chained lights are true blockstrings from what I have played with, no opportunity to mash out, so no frame trap
@@rooflemonger Respectfully, that is not the case. Chained light attacks are frame traps in SF6 as of the beta. The gap is 3F or less because their fastest button (4f) will get counter-hit.
Imo as a SF3 fan, I love the pressure that specifically Ryu gets in that game. His pressure is pretty straight forward in neutral and can be varied highly to keep pressure going. However, it can get to a point that if the pressure will need to be escaped with tight timing and sometimes risky moves. Having all normals be minus I think is a good idea for starters. Allows pressure to be kept to a minimum and players won’t get tight and possibly upset as a result. Cancelling into specials wouldn’t be a big deal since it would more than likely push the player far enough into neutral unless it’s something like hashogeki, and the counter pressure buttons could be delayed if ever for the sake of blocking a cancel into special moves. Whenever I’m cornered by a Ryu in SF3, I tend to get tightened up and I physically hold my breath sometimes. Idk if much of that is right, but that’s just my way of thinking 😅
However something I’ve always disliked it sweep being punishable at all ranges instead of up close range. That’s always annoyed me in sf5 and more than likely will in sf6.
Edit: I use 3rd strike as an example cause that’s the game I know best
I very much appreciate that defense isn't hamstrung. Definitely felt a lot easier to defend myself compared to the likes of guilty gear strive.
Yea in gg stive offense is so HEAVILY favored and rewarded that the second u start blocking against someone, you practically already lost the match
In OG games (sf2, alpha) everything was plus but strings were short because there was so much pushback. I think they're trying to recapture that feeling. Game feels a bit like MK though
This probably has a lot to do with why burnout feels so punishing (besides no drive moves). All those buttons that ended the opponent's offense before suddenly turn into frame traps.
Interesting insight
Being able to play the beta myself I thought the game was very well polished for a beta.
Any more plus frames and the lockdown in the corner including Drive Impact pressure would be too much.
I believe at the moment it’s very balanced fun and the high level matches are EXTREMELY fun to watch the new drive system leaves so much room for creativity across the board.
The second button in natural combo should always be negative on block imo. If you dont confirm a hit you should lose your turn.
What about jumping normals on block? I would imagine those are still plus but maybe not as much as in the past?
Jumps are still plus by design
@@rooflemonger okay, at least that will be familiar
I'm cool with this change. Some matches in SFV just felt like waiting, waiting, waiting, then making the opponent wait, wait, wait...
I think "block a normal then go for a throw" is going to be really good. What a weird game
this explains why drive impact is so cheap, so that you can use it to stop it against mashers who are overextending.
Also, is that gonna effect how tick throws work ?
i think overall you're right... But I've seen some play of high skilled players...and I think that ppl will still be "locked down" in SF6. Some char's can produce really decent block strings since many have target combos too...
Given how powerful and diverse the new universal mechanics are it makes sense that most everything is minus. There is also pretty major pushback on a lot of moves from what we saw in the beta. Drive rush alone would make plus buttons extremely hard to deal with that I would imagine would turn off a lot of newer players. This is not even thinking about the other universal mechanics and meter. Frame traps with universal parries and the option selects that will be found would really front load a lot of the learning necessary to even play the game against someone aware of these things. Minimizing the baseline learning curve for frame data is a really smart choice overall for this game.
how? weather you're + or - drive rush has a ton of start up frames so it wouldn't matter if you're +
i think they don't want you spamming lights or moves to fish things since that way the players go back to neutral pauses.
They would give more true block strings if the wanted drive impact to be minimized
Simply following what this gen of fighting games are doing
Thats actually kinda wild...
Can i get at least a plus 1 on my jabs tho? So i can get somewhat of a blockstring with no drive impact mashing through it
Looks so much better than eSports fighter 5!
Makes me think of MK frame data, which is a game with a block button, so I wonder if adding parry in has something to do with it
SFV had a loy of combos that you could confirm off 2 mediums and didn't need particularly good reactions.
This seems like a way to curb that.
0 on block would have been a better choice in my opinion.
For the moment I like this game a lot more than the previous one. Even the things you're commenting on this video looks better than before to me. I hope Capcom won't change it just because some people cry about some things.
This everything's negative would be so much fun if DPs were still invulnerable like in old streetfighter.
I thi k this ks a good change because most fighting games i played , if you fight aginst a person thats like decent at block strings and stuff, it feels like you cant do anything
Reminds me of Virtua Fighter now
Hey! I also got the impression the there were A LOT more trades, now i understand why :D
While testing the characters i noticed there are no 3f moves in SF6, fastest button across the beta cast was 4f. Are there any consequences to this change?
I truly don't understand if this would have any impact on how matches unfold.
The change is universal far as I can tell on the 4f thing, might be even as simple as to improve quality of netplay, when the fastest move is just a bit slower, easier to keep games in snyc
@@rooflemonger yes, smash bros is a nightmare for this because several characters have one frame jabs, the online is almost unplayably bad at times
Fk yeah.
No more mid puncher 5.
-1 on block and pushback feels like old school 2d fighting games
Happy Thanksgiving!
Thank you! 🍁
it's a bit more like tekken usually you have the fastest paunch which is positiv on bloc and that's it almost or you have pressure type character or even you can just duck or sidestep or what ever interesting
Starting to play Street Fighter after other games I was always incredibly confused about why everything seemed to be plus on block...
When moves in other games are plus they're ether slow and designed to punish too passive play, or if they're fast they have some other counter to them.
I never really liked Street Fighter very much.. watching it, it always looked like dudes were just booping the opponent with light pokes repeatedly while the opponent was just standing there waiting for them to get pushed out.
Sounds like it’ll be more like Tekken where you take turns or try to steal them
on a completely different note..kimberly is just adorable.
100% not my playstyle for gameplay, but as a character I think kimberly is pretty cool
@@rooflemonger yea me too..I am more of a grappler like r.mika and Laura but her design, mannerism and looks are just fantastic..can't wait for Manon, Cammy and deejay.
How is the pushback on block compared to other Street Fighter games?
SF2, Alpha series, CVS2, whatever, these games had plenty of +1000 OB moves, but it didn't really matter since you had non-trivial push.