I don’t see how a person’s doctrinal beliefs on free will/predestination has implications on the likelihood of him succumbing to sexual temptation. A man is a man.
Agreed, I see many people attempting to explain Lawson's fall as having something to do with "Calvinism." As though plenty of other pastors with different or opposite theological views haven't also fallen. Anyone who lets their guard down is susceptible to such scandals. @morriswilburn9858 But, I don't believe Pastor Grant was discussing that aspect, he was discussing the concepts of Lordship Salvation and Free Grace. My comment in agreement was that outside of this video, many are attacking Steve Lawson based on his Reformed beliefs.
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife You are on point. Men have been falling for women as far back as we care to look, and certainly well before there was a John Calvin.
For real. Not to mention there are many non Christians who have not cheated on their spouse. Men have been sining long before Jesus came. Mental knowledge and sound doctrine does not equal personal holiness. And this Lawson thing is exposing the delusion and blind spot on that side also. There seems to be a superiority complex and assumed perfectionism on the reformed space. No offense to anyone just troubling observation.
@@NotEasyButSimple I mean according to Lawson certain sins mean you are clearly not saved. How about cheating on your wife? If the dudes theology is right sounds like he is going to burn. Hypocritical at best lost at worst according to his own doctrine.
Most men simply don't believe in Jesus because we live in a fallen world, a world in darkness, a world in sin. Easy believe-ism is also wrong for Jesus Christ gave His life for the Church, all those whom the Father had given Him, His sheep. Believing in Jesus requires a couple of things: 1. The Holy Spirit has to intervene in our sinful lives, and 2. The Holy Spirit has to give us His gift of faith, and 3. We have to receive it as an undeserved free gift.
Charles R Swindoll is the only non Reformed pastor I've always enjoyed listening to. He, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur were voices I grew up listening to on the radio.
@@WhoGitDaBiscuitOops, edited for clarity regarding the fact that Stanley has indeed passed on. Charles Stanley refuted predestination? He refuted the existence of a concept given in Scripture? 🤔
Thank you for your balanced approach. I love Chuck Swindoll and have listened to him for years, esp. when I was new in the faith. But I've been attending Grace Community Church for 27 years now and basically hold to MacArthur's position. However, as you said, there's a ditch on both sides, and we need to be diligent to stay on the road. Blessings to you!
The misunderstanding about "Lordship salvation" centers around the fact that, whether you are aware of it or not when you receive Christ, you don't make Jesus Savior or Lord, he already is those things. At issue, if I'm understanding it properly, is whether a believer accepts the fact that Jesus IS Lord over you - he suffered for you and died for you. That means he can do anything he wants with you. Many believers receive Christ as Savior only, not realizing that he may at any time instruct you to do something or change something in your life to conform to his will for your life. As important as consciously receiving him as Savior is, to be his disciple one must also regard him as Lord of their life and Lord over their life. "Take my will and make it thine - it shall be no longer mine."
@Jeffrey-c2z or how can one who is born dead in trespasses and sin can regenerate himself. As Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead so He raises us from the dead. A regenerate person has the HS in and with him. Therefore he cannot but help to make Jesus lord. You are right sir. Great call
Dr Charles Swindoll “Chuck” is no easy believism salvation. I was at the church for 20 yrs. He would not say he’s a Calvinist but he did say he didn’t have issues with most of the TULIP. Steve Farrar was the men’s Bible study leader for 20 yrs and a rock solid Calvinist. I grew more there over 20 yrs than the previous 30 yrs. Chuck was not dogmatic about it as Lawson was.
@@amapola53 grace, all those are false teachers. Al Mohler is the cowardly wolf who has populated the SBC with woke wolves. Pastor Peter Masters and ES Williams have several videos on Mohler, Keller, Piper.
It was through Chuck’s ministry that I came to faith around age 21/22 I’m 58 now. Many a drive listening on the radio.Thank you Chuck and G.. bless you. Enjoy your retirement 👍🏼
I've hung out with Chuck Swindoll and have listened to him, read him, for 30+ years. He is NOT opposed to the Lordship of Jesus. It's not two different camps, as you seem to indicate.
I've never met a free gracer who didn't believe that Jesus was Lord of all. They all, to a man, believe Jesus is Lord over all the world and everyone in it.
Do you mean by that he believed as Reformed believe that you will or must make Jesus your Lord, fully submitted to Him in every aspect of your life, or you cannot be saved? There is a BIG difference between not being "opposed to the Lordship of Jesus" and making His Lordship a requirement for saving faith. That's where you enter into adding works to the gospel of grace. It's not in the Bible, period.
Oh my goodness, the comments on this video are crazy. I never said he opposes the Lordship of Jesus, I said he opposed the theological position known as Lordship salvation. Its not the same.
The "sinners prayer" didn't save anyone. The bible says "by faith". It says "believe". Of course that is believe on His finished work, and that He is worthy to perform that work of shedding His blood for our sins. He is worthy because He is the perfect Man and He IS GOD THE SON manifest in the flesh. Of course a prayer is certainly appropriate and I would recommend it but that is not what saves you. A prayer is likely almost spontaneous if you truly believe.
@@colonalklink14Faith Alone does indeed save you. Saving faith is never alone BECAUSE true saving Faith causes a radical change in a person. No double talk.
@@peterpulpitpounder We are saved by grace through faith. I've always felt it was a strawman argument saying "Just because you said a prayer when you were younger doesn't mean you're saved." No one, at least no one I've ever met, thinks that simply repeating words you don't even mean saves anyone. But if someone believes the gospel and cries out to God to be saved, then yes that person is saved.
And the best way to deal with an essential doctrine like that is to meditate on the totality of scripture so it will teach you, not some seminary professor.
I don't think you gave Chuck Swindoll a fair account of what he taught. I found this to be somewhat upsetting to do on the same day he retired. He was a faithful, humble teacher of God's Word through radio, books, and ministry.
It was his position, I gave the man credit at the end, I said he is worthy of respect. I did not disrespect him at all I just disagree with the free grace position.
@@Pastor_Grant If grace isn't free it cannot truly be called grace. The very nature of grace is there is no merit on the part of the recipient. Any change in a person's life at the moment of salvation is not because of their inward will to "make a change", but because God regenerates (new birth) that person, and the Holy Spirit of God immediately takes up residence. That transaction happens in an instant and their eternal salvation is a done deal forever. The degree of change or dedication will not be the same for every believer and yes, some NEVER grow in grace and certainly many never make Jesus the Lord of their lives or become dedicated disciples. Whatever change does take place is the result of what God did, not what we set out to do.
I stopped listening to Swindoll after he began begging for money in 2012 and until he retired. He also holds to free Grace Doctrine which is unbiblical.
Ephesians 2:8-10 seems to me so clear: salvation by grace and faith alone (no works, no merit) that will blossom in good works because we are new creation in Christ
I Think there's a misunderstanding on his definition of "Lordship Salvation" We make the Jesus the Lord of our life. However we are Tempted by Sin. The Behavior is Mark of being redeemed. However growth is continuous (Sanctification) if we don't struggle everyday in our daily lives in any area of our lives were not being honest with ourselves. Everyday is an opportunity to be obedient to God's Word, to Walk in the Spirit. The Perfection will not happen this side of Heaven. Justified ! Sanctified ! Glorified 🙌
“If you love me >keep< my commandments” Keep means to respectfully regard and to carefully guard. “Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I would not sin against you” We “keep” His commandments by treasuring them. Our “keeping” His commandments leads to more obedience.
“No works to prove that you are saved”… that’s not what scripture teaches: “But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS COUNTED for righteousness.” Romans 4:5. The thief on the cross was the perfect example of this, he BELIEVED on Christ for the forgiveness of all sins.
Glad you said the truth is down the middle. It's both, I think the new Christian normally doesn't understand the Lordship side but that is what discipleship is for. The just shall live by faith is a theme throughout the bible. It's a razor edge that none of us can stay on 100% of the time or we wouldn't need a saviour. Paul over and over in his epistles had to say that he wasn't promoting living in sin so that people would understand his grace message.
That's why we need God's Grace. All of us are fallen and only By His Grace we are saved, and sanctified and will be glorified. All of us will be rewarded according to our labors. Pastor Swindoll is not a perfect man. and I think he has clarified that through all the years of ministry. So is Pastor Lawson. One fell the other is about to finish. But both of them received the same Grace but different in finishing the race. We all can start looking out to their mistakes and sins. And critique every inch of it. We can start finding finding bones in their closets but again, God has been so gracious to the both of them. I think it's not right to for us to find one another's faults. Pastor Lawson is now being disciplined by his local church. We are to pray for him and his family. Intercede for him. He made a great decision to go to the elders and confess his sin. He sure knows the consequences of it but as a man convicted by God's Word, he did the right thing. He stepped down even to his own founded ministry. Things are in God's control now. Jesus said, John 8:7 KJV ...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her... Paul Warned... 1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. On the other hand, Pastor Swindoll, is about to finish the race that was set before him. Yes, we have disagreements on many things, but his gospel is not another Gospel. He is not to be put on a pedestal, but he is to be esteemed. He is a man of God, who will be finishing his course any moment, yet here comes the "believers of Christ" who are about to find fault in him. Can we not just pray for him that he might finish the course? For Pastor Lawson, may it serve as a lesson that even the People who are mighty in Scriptures might fal if he isn't sober minded. For Pastor Swindoll may he be an encouragement to us as Christians, that a life with Christ is not easy. The race is difficult. The road is narrow and the steep. Yet, it is possible to finish the race like Apostle Paul who told timothy "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." - 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV The question for is here is, Are we able to finish the course like Pastor Swindoll or like Pastor Lawson. Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that Chuck Swindoll was on the Free Grace side. I have many of his books and did not pick that up from his writings. Steve Lawson has been a very strong teacher/preacher for decades and what has happened will affect the church for a long time to come. It is incredibly sad and very hurtful to many that a man with this kind of worldwide impact would fall like this. When you become Born Again, your life is changed forever. Sure you still sin, but certainly not to the extend that Lawson did. He was constantly in the word and he knew better than most about temptation and yet he allowed for this to happen. WE all most be constantly vigilant to all temptation because ultimately when we sin, we disgrace Jesus. Those around him did right by removing him entirely from ministry. He is a terrible testimony. AND now people will wonder if he was saved at all, because of the scope of his sin. Free Grace is not Salvation.
@@RonaldMillsaps Calvinism is the very foundation of the Bible. Praise Christ. You lack biblical understanding if you reject the Doctrines of Grace (Election and the Doctrine of Election). Praise Christ.
I have , always particularly enjoyed the teachings of Swindoll, as well as MacArthur, Sproul, Tozer, Washer, even Spurgeon, and others over the years. After hearing of the different views on certain issues, it reminds me that, indeed, the ‘road is narrow, and there are few who find it.’ O Holy Spirit, open our eyes, teach us the Truth, not of men but of God, our Father❤️🙏❤️ All of this is so very disconcerting. If it is unsettling for long-time Believers, imagine what new Believers are going through. ❤️🙏❤️
Charles Swindoll was my pastor when I was saved in 1974. Have often watched his Stonebriar services online. Wishing him Happy Retirement though he has said he'll be back in the pulpit now and then. Grace and peace to you and Cynthia Pastor Chuck!
Lordship salvation is NOT unbiblical for Jesus Christ is both Lord and Saviour and we are saved by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and Him alone. By the way Arminians have it completely wrong for they believe that we must make Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour personally (aka decisional regeneration) when in fact Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour and we cannot make Him anything He already is. What the Reformed Orthodox position is is that as Christians we embrace Jesus Christ and Lord and Saviour because the Holy Spirit has regenerated us through the gift of faith prior to us believing on Him. If someone claims that Jesus Christ is their Saviour, but don't believe He is their Lord then they are either not genuinely saved or misunderstand Jesus Christ's attributes of lordship and salvation. By the way we are not saved by the right Theology, but by Jesus Christ, who has given us the right Theology about Himself in His Word, our Bible. It is very disappointing that Steve Lawson, while having the right Theology, chose to disobey God and sinned. It is also disturbing that Steve was not an official member at the Church he preached at, nor that his wife not accompanied him at various spiritual events he was part of on a consistent basis.
Steve Lawson, more than anyone else in the many years that I have been born again, has influenced my theology and Christian life. His series on the attributes of God exposed how I had “squeezed” God into God is love, which He is, and shortsighted myself to His other attributes, such as wrath, justice, judgment, and vengeance. His teaching on the Trinitarian Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, showed how I had also locked Him into the Godman Jesus of the gospels, ignoring the resurrected Jesus who threatened churches in Revelation with serious consequences if they didn’t repent. It showed me that the Trinitarian Jesus, God the Son, is demanding when it comes to sin in the church - and in my life. Stop sinning! Steve’s teachings unmasked the sentimentalist Jesus I had grown accustomed to who is soft on sin: the Jesus of most of the American church and in my life: not the “real” Jesus. God used Steve to instill in me that Jesus “demands” me to live a holy life. I believe when saved you are saved forever. But Jesus is also my Judge, and of all born-again believers. He died so He will see the agony of His soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53: 11); all born-again believers are the agony of His soul. And I want Him to be fully satisfied with me because I took sin seriously beyond new birth to live a holy life. God used Steve Lawson to teach me it and to move forward to where I am today - and the knowledge of the Word to keep moving forward until I reach heaven. Never once did I think of him as a celebrity preacher, nor on a pedestal - only as a man who rightly divided the Word of God. Be careful how you denigrate his work. And him. You could be guilty of sin right along with Steve.
Honest question here. I attend Swindoll's church and he gives out the gospel at the end of every sermon. But I never heard him say that way you put it: "a person can be saved but he can still live like a carnal Christian." Can you please provide a link where he actually says that?
Its the anti Lordship view that he holds. He obviously isn't going to encourage people to live carnally but if they do he isn't going to......you need to investigate his position. If he is your pastor you should just ask him.
Appreciate you bringing up the Lordship Controversy. I do think it’s somewhat relevant. I lean more Free Grace but both sides have strawmen arguments. One thing that always amazed me was that Lordship proponents don’t believe in such thing as the carnal Christian. But look no further than David, Solomon, Lot, and 1 Cor 3, and you’ll see carnal believers. Lawson was always so dogmatic against that, as you said. Are we to immediately question Lawson’s conversion? I think not. That’s God’s business. Bottom line, Christ is Lord because the Father made him Lord (Acts 2:36). We all vary in our practical acknowledgment of that but it doesn’t change that fact, but it’s based on what God did not what we do. But the Lawson family needs prayer right now, even if I disagree with him on this matter. Chuck Swindoll: great man of God.
That’s where you’ll see a range of viewpoints. Zane Hodges would say you could remain there forever. Ryrie implied that it could appear outwardly that way but inwardly there would be conflict. MacArthur, in his original book, basically argued that Christians can fall from time to time, but not have a pattern of falling. I would say carnal Christianity is defined as a pattern of falling or sinning. It may not be forever, but it’s certainly a prolonged period, even years. You are certainly correct that there are ditches on either side. I think the main thing that we need to focus on is not our performance, but on the sufficiency and preeminence of Christ. Once we become too focused on ourselves, that’s when we fall into a dependence on ourselves, and not on the One who gave Himself up for us and freely, gives us all things.
A carnal Christian is someone who professes Christ but live in continual sin David was not a carnal Christian, most of his life he grew in his obedience to GOD, though he had a terrible fall in sin, read Psalm 51 to see the depth of repentance that only comes from a saint Solomon was not a carnal Christian, he sinned seriously but eventually repented near the end of his life and wrote the book of Ecclesiastes and many proverbs There is no support for a carnal Christian in the Bible. That’s why the “free grace theology” is so dangerous, it gives false assurance to many unbelievers, making them false converts
One cannot be a true believer (Christian) in Christ as carnal. Romans 8. Look at verses 5-6: “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
@@Pastor_Grant One cannot be a true believer (Christian) in Christ as carnal. Romans 8. Look at verses 5-6: “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
Reformed theology asserts that genuine faith in Christ will inevitably lead to a transformed life. This transformation is marked by a new desire to obey God's commands, not out of legalistic obligation, but out of love for Christ who is now the Lord of one's life. The concept of "carnal Christians," as some propose, suggests that one can have genuine faith in Christ without any substantial change in their lifestyle or behavior. This idea is not in alignment with Lordship Salvation, nor is it consistent with the biblical teaching on sanctification. The Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, reminds the Corinthians that they were once characterized by sinful behaviors, but they have been washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This indicates a clear change in their lives as a result of their faith in Christ.
After watching hours of Theocast, and reading that part in John where Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharasies could not understand, because if they understood they could believe, and if they believed, they WOULD be saved. And then Judas being the one who _never_ believed. The last couple months I've been erring on the side of free grace, and the love I have for my fellow believers is beautiful now. I used to second guess everyone's salvation, because I'd be questioning my own all the time, all based on my performance at the time. It was so depressing and distancing. Exhausting. To really believe John three 16 & 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
Lordship salvation is salvation by free grace. There is no salvation without grace, which by definition is free. The problem with the teaching that you can have Christ as Saviour without him being Lord is that it contradicts all of the New Testament, because without holiness we will not be received into God's presence.
According to Calvinism, Steve Lawson's sin was determined by the Lord from the foundation of the world. And if you are a radical Calvinist,God manipulated scenarios to bring him to this place of sin. This is why I refute the misguided teachings of Calvinism and the terrible misunderstanding of who God is in relation to creation and people.
I'm pretty sure the pastor's wife expected Lordship Salvation as regards to adultery - and you should also demand this. This shouldn't be controversial.
Thank you for the video by the way nice summary of the positions. I have seen both "free grace" and "lordship salvation" types push the prayer (some version of the sinners prayer) without saying one word about faith, trust, believing, or what Christ accomplished on the cross. I think that is very confusing and the gospel gets nebulous and lost when they do that.
I completely agree! Unfortunately, I think there are millions who said a "prayer" and believe they're saved and they're not! I've seen people pray the prayer multiple times and it not impact their life at all. Perhaps grace and lordship salvation are two sides of the same coin and it's not an either/or issue. Just a thought....
There are extremes on both sides. Free grace can be extreme, and Lordship salvation can be extreme. I have to admit that I was very surprised to hear about Dr. Lawson and his problems. Apparently the relationship had gone on for five years and the ladies father threatened exposure for what I understand, but don’t quote me. It is amazing to me how harsh Dr. Lawson could be against people who stumble, particularly in sexual areas. Of course we are called to purity, but one thing I have noticed about ministers who constantly rail against particular sins… Many times they struggle with those exact same sins, so it is like projection or cognitive dissidents. Five years of that going on and railing against men that have issues in that area. Of course, we are to preach against sin, but it is interesting how many people who talk about certain things a lot tend to have those same issues. He called ministers who fell in that area, the fool of all fools it is so sad and I pray for his wife and family and for his repentance
I've been listening to ptr. swindoll for quite sometime, and I do not see him as some preacher who implied easy believism. No, ptr. chuck is against duplicity in christianity or "carnal christians" and most certainly if you are a part and participating in any ministry especially in pastoral level. So I think that you are barking at the wrong tree, your opinion/view is irrelevant.
2 Corinthians 12:9: "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me".
Brother- it doesn't matter what side of theology you claim, anyone can fall. In this side of life, until we are in glory, we will be tempted, stumble, and maybe even fall just as Pastor Steve Lawson has. I cannot speak and will not dare assume how bad the situation is with Steve, but I appreciate the fact that the brother came to his elders and openly admit his sin. I believe that says he has repented and God will restore him (1 John 1:9). Let's stop pointing the finger about this and that and be prayerful towards one another!
I believe the statement his church put out said he had been REMOVED, not that he resigned, that doesn't sound like a man with a repenting spirit. As arrogant and condescending as Lawson is, I can see him pulling the ol judge not excuse and the church leadership telling him to hit the road.
It's the duty of the church to remove a pastor or elder if they are no longer qualified, so for the church to have let him resign would have betrayed that duty. Two things can still be true at the same time: Lawson comes to the elders and confesses his sin, perhaps with true repentance, and then the elders, while forgiving him, still must execute the ordained penalty of removing him, and I think Lawson would have and did understand that already.
@@Pastor_Grant Brother- didn't you implied that? You said because Steve Lawson was so dagmatic/ rigid about his stance on Lordship salvation, this is why his issue is so surprising! Aren't you judging him and saying that his life should exemplify total obedience? All I'm saying is let us stop all this nonsense judgemental hatred and making interpretations on who the perpetrator is and what he has done. All of us can fall at any moment because our enemy knows our weaknesses, He is watching and waiting (1 Pet. 5:8) for the perfect moment to trip us up. I saw that video where Steve Lawson was telling the young man that unless your life is pure- God will not use you. Well, he's wrong (Steve was making an arogant statement) about that! God can use anyone and that is because of God's grace.
I found this statement and I completely agree with it. It's a more middle of the road take on free grace and Lordship salvation Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The only “work” required for salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection, as the full payment for your sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Even this “work” of believing is empowered and enabled by God (John 6:44). Repentance is a change of mind from an embrace of sin and rejection of Christ into an embrace of Christ and rejection of sin (Acts 2:38; 3:19). Repentance, just like faith, is empowered and enabled by God (Acts 11:18), and often goes hand-in-hand with faith at the moment of salvation. The Holy Spirit’s convicting work is powerful (John 16:8). It is difficult to imagine how someone could understand the gospel, what Christ did for us on the cross, and for there to be no amount of repentance about the sin that put Jesus on that cross. A Christian is a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is saved, redeemed, reconciled, regenerated, and justified. It is unfathomable that those could occur and yet not result in a noticeable change in a person’s life. After listing a series of sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, the apostle Paul declared, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11, emphasis added). Discipleship is the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Christians being discipled (taught, trained, baptized, mentored, encouraged, rebuked, and held accountable) plays a tremendous role in their spiritual growth. While it is perfectly within the power of the Holy Spirit for Him to bring a person to spiritual maturity entirely on His own, that is not typically how the Holy Spirit operates. If Christians are not discipled, or are discipled poorly, or never avail themselves of discipleship opportunities, there may only be a minimal amount of spiritual fruit in their lives (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; Hebrews 5:12-6:3).
Sgrongly agree with you Mr. Grant. The Israelite Sampson is the perfect example of a life that was reprobate but still 'saved'. Should have been a big time leader of the Hebrews but fell away very early in life. Even a drug addict or porn addicted can still be 'saved' but can still be punished.
My husband and I are reformed baptists but we both grew up on Chuck Swindoll and James Dobson. As you can tell our stance on salvation changed from free grace to Lordship salvation. As far as anti nomianism goes it’s on the Lordship salvation side of things too! We’ve seen whole reformed churches that believed they could live how ever they wanted to because they were saved by grace through faith.
Almost no one would assert we should live ungodly lives if we are saved. Making godly living a requirement for salvation is clearly heretical, however.
Whether Lordship or Antinomianism(I didn't check for spelling, sorry legalists) neither quantifies how much fruit is enough, how much evidence is enough to prove salvation, or how much sinning negates true salvation. It sounds like the Lordship camp has control issues. Grace is grace. What do you do with the Corinthians?
There seems to be a sacred tension between (and I know semantics can be a problem) Lordship Salvation and Easy Believism. Each likely uses hyperbole in characterizing the other. I believe the Bible warns against the paradigms that each describe the other as embracing. Fact is, both Swindoll and Lawson would preach 2 Cor. 5:17 and Romans 6 very similarly, warning against exploiting grace as license. They would also both likely acknowledge the importance of believers "making every effort to add to their faith..." those qualities of growth found in 2 Peter 1:5-8, both likely acknowledging (especially now) that a true believer can fail to walk in the Spirit and lose the war against the flesh on any given day (Gal. 5). That's why I try to avoid embracing the "Lordship Salvation" or the "Easy Believism" title and strive for a biblical balance that acknowledges the Lordship of Christ at salvation AND the need (and room) to grow in sanctification as positional Lordship becomes more and more who I am practically. We must admit Jesus IS Lord and Grace IS Free as the price has already been paid.
The problem I see with this, when I look at today's christians, is that this grace alone by faith alone seems to leave many as if they are but mere pictures frozen in time that do not ever change according to the encouragements and admonitions of the apostles. I see this because most christians are not genuine; they are those who have a mere christian flavored religion of no consequence whatever camp they happen to reside in. That's why grace alone is so attractive to people who have no intention on repenting; they shopped for a religion and found "christianity" to be the most attractive, as a Middle Easterner would no doubt see Islam as favorable. Neither religion does them any benefit. In their case, grace alone never changed anything but their mouths. I never see grace doing anything for so many people except supposedly covering their flagrant sinning, and that's where most of their rancor emanates from when anyone challenges their notion of what is means to be saved. To be sure, it most certainly IS by grace alone, but that doesn't mean they have even a scintilla of this grace judging by their lives. But even the apostles could not judge them; the Tares resemble the Wheat too much. This is how millions have jumped on the Jesus bandwagon only to fall off a distance down the road.
Chuck Swindoll lived well but preached cheap grace. Steve Lawson lived like a wolf in sheeps clothing but at least he understood salvation the right way.
I think we need to be careful that we distinguish one over the other. In listening to Chuck Swindoll he spike about Grace while at the same time he would talk about obedience to Christ and His Word. One of the things that I really think distingused him from other pastors is his autenticity and humility. He was always very transparent with his congregation. He was a grace oriented pastor who drew people in the Grace of God through his Biblical exposition of God's Word. He will be missed.
I grew up in a Baptist Church, moved to Presbyterian when married and am now in an Anglican Church for the beauty of the liturgy. I don't think I've ever head any doctrine other than submission to the lordship of Christ in any of these churches.
Lordship salvation is the biblical position which is part of the reason John wrote his gospel so people will know all it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ (John 20:31) and is spoken by Thomas when he finally had proof to believe he called Jesus his Lord and God (John 20:28).
He is already Lord. You making Jesus Lord and Master of your life is a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone. That's a service issue. Salvation is absolutely free and not conditional upon service to God.
@@colonalklink14 You do not make Him Lord but you do recognize Him as Lord as the gospel of John teaches with the "I AM" statements and the miracles performed and Thomas did in John 20:28 and Paul offers in Romans 10:9-10. What many Christians fail to do is grasp the comprehensive teaching of scripture on a subject including the God (Lord) Man Jesus Christ.
The Bible is clear that we don't have to do works for salvation. I agree with Chuck. I fail all the time, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the video.
Lordship salvation wasn't invented by John MacArthur. It was Jesus who came up with Lordship salvation. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. - Matthew 10:38-39 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:27 "Follow Me", means "do what I say always". God bless ALL of you. Read Psalm 19v1
They all have their place . I thought Charles Swindoll was very watered down, in the Gospel, but His work in Lamentations, David , Elijah, He did some remarkable work. With that said He is Lord .God dose the Saving,It's Grace alone, a Life seeking to honour God will follow. A lot of the Leaders and pastor have ecumenical practices cause they embrace Bill Bright, Billy Graham ,Luis palue, All Three ecumenical. They did the Body of Christ no favours.
If lordship salvation is correct, then Steve Lawson was never a Christian because he this went on longer than a "hiccup". Lawson never truly repented (like David) because he was forced by his girlfriend's father to confess. Lordship theology demands he be called out as a wolf in sheep's clothing (Matt. 7:15), a tree that bears bad fruit (Matt. 7:18), and that he is not of us because he went out from us (1 John 2:19). Then the turret should turn to the leaders close to him (including McArthur) who lacked the discernment to weed out an unbelieving leader. They need to be consistent in applying their theology even when it comes to their friends.
@@anonymous-lt3yd there's truth to what you're saying. I'm not sure MacArthur could know however. They do need to be consistent now also remember, David was called out himself by Nathan so he didn't exactly offer that up on his own so getting caught can lead to repentance. Time will tell with Lawson, word is he hasn't returned to his church since it came out which is not a good sign.
@Pastor_Grant Thanks for your comments. However, I think the appeal to David's repentance is under a different covenant and dynamic of the Holy Spirit. What I can just about promise you is that Lawson will be struck from the record just like Billy Weber was from Prestonwood Baptist Church. I took a really hard look at lordship theology years ago when Jack Graham preached on The Prodigal Son.
It is a good point that the truth is in the middle. There is a ditch on both sides, living in sin or trying to work our way by our own works. JESUS must save us, as sinners, but He gives us His Holy Spirit and we are sanctified and changed continually into His image, as Romans 8 states, this is God's will and if we love Him we keep His commands. We must teach this and make born again disciples.
I have taught for years - “Behavior follows belief.” A person who truly believes will have som sanctification take place. However, Lordship salvation DOES NOT mean sinless perfection. I think your intentions are pure, but be careful of setting up a straw man.
He was saying how lordship salvation basically backloads works. They say if your not living a "Holy" enough life then 2 things, some believe in one of these 2) 1. They fell out of grace (ie lost salvation) OR 2. Most fall here but they believe if there are not enough fruits, then they were never truly saved in the first place. These guys assume that the "I never knew you" in Matthew 24 were just false converts but there is way more evidence to support that Matthew 24 was referring to people that believed their works justified them, or their fruits or their sanctified life etc etc. Your argument of "some" sanctification is something that can't be quantified. How much sanctification? What's the grading scale? Last I checked, God DOES require sinless perfection. Thank God he sent Jesus to be that perfect sacrifice because if it was on us and our sanctification, Heaven would be empty.
@@jonathanluke2670 I think basically I agree with what you are saying. Most definitely you are correct in saying that “God does require sinless perfection” and Jesus fulfills that requirement for us. My belief that some sanctification is required is supported right at the end of this chapter comparing men who who built their house and the rock vs. the sand. It fits the context that this is salvation. I think building on the rock represents sanctified works - BUT I am not dogmatic here. I would also add the works ARE NOT meritorious here, only the result of coming to faith. I do not claim to have all the answers. Truthfully I struggle with verses in Romans which state “We will be judged by our works…” Romans 2:6-12. I struggle with this verse and can only reconcile it with grace if the works are evidence. Again, not dogmatic - willing to listen to other views. However, I KNOW we are saved by grace WITHOUT meritorious works because it’s the Bible’s basic message throughout.
Just to throw another pebble in this pond, I’m 62. And been in many church cultures moving around the country. And because of that, I’ve gleaned many “nuggets” in ALL the theological camps. I agree, the charismatics are way too loosey-goosey with their obedience and many have fallen (unsurprisingly) into scandalous sin. The thing that makes reformed calvinists falling so shocking, is their devotion to discipline. imagine if John MacArthur had fallen? Whether or not you’re in his camp or agree on everything he teaches and he believes (which I don’t), it would devastate me to know a man like that could speak so clearly on truth theologically and live his life so counter to that. Also CS Lewis and his amazing theological creativity had some wonky theological dispositions. And yet I don’t think anybody on this comment thread has not gained some thing from him. I think once people are dead they’re harder to judge. And no man except Jesus is free from the possibility. Oh, and one more thing about “lordship salvation “ The first 👥 Disciples “accepted Jesus“ as Lord before they accepted him as Savior. The idea of lordship salvation the way that we understand it is kind of goofy. Because he has to be Lord first. every New Testament person laid their lives in his hands as Lord first…in our context savior and lord are one in the same thing as Faith and Evidence should be one of the same thing as in two sides of the coin. People who say they believe in Jesus and yet no one would know that except that they said it are no different than any other cognitive dissonance liar in our world
In a debate between a Lordship Salvationist and an Easy Gracer, at least one of them has to be wrong. We have to wonder: what exactly is the Holy Spirit doing to the mind/heart of the person who is wrong? Is the Holy Spirit "trying" to make him see the light, but isn't quite able to make it happen? Or does the person in the wrong continue being wrong because the Holy Spirit doesn't want them to recognize the truth just yet? If the first option is correct, then god is not sovereign, since his "trying" often results in a failure of his purpose to make somebody see the light. If the second option is correct, the person in the wrong has a valid excuse for their heresy: "I stayed in heresy for so long because God didn't want me to recognize the truth during that time".
Both sides have valid points, sometimes we are presented with a false dilemma and we fall into the mindset that we must choose between the Republican or Democrat, which one is good for the country and come to find out they are both bad.....but one is usually less bad.
@@Pastor_Grant When two Christians debate a theological point and one of them has to be wrong (like in the debate between a Calvinist and an Arminian), does the Holy Spirit want the person who is wrong, to recognize they are wrong, yes or no?
If one listens to Chuck Swindoll preach on James 2, he does take the view that a true believer will have good works to validate the genuineness of his salvation. So next time, please acknowledge that when critiquing
I don't think I was critiquing Swindoll was I? I don't remember doing that, I said he was worthy or respect. I was simply pointing out that these men held to opposite views and that Swindoll defended the free grace position while Swindoll critiqued Lordship Salvation, don't remember criticizing Chuck at all, can you give me a quote of what I said with time stamp that you object to?
Doctrinal positions of these men are like human shields in a war. If you hit one, you don’t actually hit the enemy, but something seemingly insignificant but real dies in the process.
Since when does reformed have the monoply on repenting and surrendering your life to the Lord? Loving the Lord more than anything else. We also must maintain and sustain our relationship with Him.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed.' - John Newton Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." It's all grace from start to finish. Salvation (past present and future: justification, sanctification, and glorification) is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Romans 6:14: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." 2 Peter 3:18: "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." - 2 Corinthians 12:9
I can see value in both sides but ya know how we humans are we gotta win and win big so to speak. We definitely can take certain stances too far. Not very long ago I was in a tailspin over listening to preachers give messages from Paul’s teaching and preachers giving sermons on the book of James plus a few of Jesus’ parables. The good that came out of it was it drove me to my knees for clarity
Pastor Grant, I have chatted here in the comments with you for a while now. I thought you would want to know. I have rejected works-righteousness in favor of Sola Gratia, Sola fide. Just wanted to share that.
@@Pastor_Grant i have not. I hesitate to return to my former one, just because of some hypocrisy that went on there and lack of helpfulness as I devolved into the Hebrew Roots Movement for a while. But I also do not want to go to, say an Elevation church as it will likely be more mystic than I intend. I am also non-determinist, but Sola fide so figure that one out XD In general, I'm weighing options and praying. If you could pray for me, that God tells me where to go/guides me to the place He wants me, I'd appreciate it : )
Sorry, but I just saw a term I have never seen before. TULIP? Would someone please enlighten me? If you are not Calvinist, are you Arminian? (no, I do not know Arminianism, do not know the difference) Don’t recall seeing either of those terms in the New Testament.
TULIP aka the 5 points of Calvinism, highlighting the sovereignty of God in salvation. Its a theological term so you would not find it in the Bible. 5 Point Calvinists would say you are Arminian if you deny any of the 5 points. That is their view, it doesn't necessarily make it so.
Basically the belief that God only loves and chooses some for salvation. He has chosen the"elect" for no reason from the foundation of the earth. He just chooses this way because he's sovereign. The TULIP causes one to read into Scripture an ideology that goes against most of the Bible and to read into Scripture things that aren't there. It really changes how we are God's nature. Always a good thing to figure out what a pastor is before joining a church because it changes some meanings of their wording and focus of Scripture. Plenty of pastors don't actually tell what they are outright. I know people going to a very large Calvinist run church who don't know that it is steeped in it, their books and classes are slowly training the people into the belief system. We just left a church of 25 years because our pastoral search committee did not screen it out and the pastor is trying to flip the church theology. It makes a difference in how one sees God and salvation. Good to figure it out. I learned a lot from Leighton Flowers who was once a dogmatic Calvinist and came out of it
Count me in the minority, but I am one of those who believes that the so-called "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation" points of view are really not all that far apart, and as you said, both have valid points. I certainly believe there are genuine believers on each side of this debate. The fact is, if one is truly saved, then Jesus IS our Lord, whether we explicitly acknowledge that fact or not! But at the same time, salvation is by grace through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ for our sins, and not by anything else that we add to it, not even a holy life.
I recon My Salvation was Sealed ( Locked In ) when I merely Believed Trusted CHRIST JESUS just over 50 years ago ( Lutheran Camp Counselor ) Was led to Fundamentalist Baptist Church a few years later, got somewhat disillusioned of some leaders, fellowshipped to more 'Reformed' groups in college in early 80s . Got somewhat disillusioned with some 'Reformed' doctrines ( A Mill ) and got influenced by Charismatic brethren and against my prior discernment sought a tongues experience only to get trapped by Oneness UPCi doctrine a Baptism which according to their interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the means of having the Blood of Christ applied. Being vexed and loosing my Assurance though I still held the utmost belief in the BIBLE, I sought guidance under JMac, Sproul and later Washer, Comfort ( Torment ) and more Calvinistic minded groups but got more depressed by Lordship emphasis of discipleship-oriented salvation. Despite over 40 years of vexation & depression, I still Trust JESUS CHRIST and the I will Stand Before the FATHER IN HIS Imputed Righteousness.
It sounds like you've really been through the wringer! I was saved on April 3, 1977, when I went forward at a newly started Independent Baptist Church. I was led to Christ with the Romans Road. I know for certain I was born again as I prayed a simple sinner's prayer for salvation and I was literally being led to pray a prayer affirming what I was just taught from the Romans Road. During that prayer, I trusted Christ and knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that I was born again. It is only by the imputed righteousness of Christ and having all our sins placed upon Him that anyone will stand before God and spend eternity with Him. It can never be lost even momentarily because we fail to live up to some standard. It truly is God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and not of our works lest any man should boast. This is only a part of my testimony, but it's the most important part! "For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved."
I can definitely relate to a lot of this. Just recently started attending a church that’s reformed, I’m about to just stop going. Tired of all these different religions. Bible is enough for me 😎
@@joycebegnaud9645 "Heb forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" The church keeps us fed, humble and opportunities to serve. who does not want you in church and fed? Listen to the Holy Spirit and remember we are all sinners saved by grace. Peace
@@Godlvr008 I went to many different churches over the years, paid my tithes, volunteered and served religiously. Was not fed spiritually whatsoever. I don’t need a building to feed me, God’s word is what feeds me. My family has grown tremendously in the Lord since we got out of church buildings. I only recently started attending. But I don’t want to get into anymore false teachings. I would rather be going out in the streets and serving, instead of sitting in a building week after week and doing not much of anything. God Bless 😎
Ive been endeavoring to serve Jesus Christ for 50 plus years , been involved in a couple of different ministries over the years as a teacher/elder/ song leader etc. Never actually heard of “ Lordship Salvation “ have heard of free grace though. Personally, I think tag lines in Christian doctrine are just silly. Christ salvation is free, it is given by His grace, and from my perspective thru His word Christ doesn’t try to Lord over anybody. What He does seem to ask and teach thru His word is that one comes to the spiritual revelation that He is indeed Lord of all, King and Creator! When this revelation comes to a believer, he/she will bow every day of their life on this earth. God bless
If salvation is not of grace alone then you have added something that the book of Galatians makes so clear. I think you have misquoted Swindol . Swindol did not teach free grace at the expense of a changed life. Salvation is given freely and the sanctified work of the Holy Spirit will bring change. Swindol would be the first to say that a person who says he is a christian but lives a life contrary to the gospel is most likely not nor has ever been a christ. To pin Swindol as hard core to the left of total free grace with no changed life making no difference, is not being honest about his position. I have listened to him for years and that was not taught when you took the whole of his teaching, you cannot just take snippets of things he has said without the whole context, I suggest you do that. obviously Lawson was hard core on salvation Lordship to the point of no exception but his life obviously did not reflect his doctrine. He had better cling to grace as his only hope of forgiveness and exceptance by God.
Oh no ....I may stop listening to pastor Swindoll now... At least if we do understand Lordship Salvation, then we can trust in the divine discipline from the Lord when we sin and grieve His Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus reigns....and we are being "conformed" into His image ... "Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone...".
Steve Lawson is a staunch Calvinist which he believes that God decrees plans and causes all things, including his adultery. He himself has said that "those who do such things, we're never saved" by his own admission, he was never saved.
I used to read Chuck Swindall's books in my late teens, and they were interesting books. they were simply about living a regular "Christianity". Then one day, I went to an alter call, and I couldn't stop crying. My life change from there on. I no longer could listen to Chuck or John McAuthor.
I am from Germany and really regret that obviously, many christians out there now exploit this situation for their own doctrinal beliefs. Steven Lawson's failure - or rather sin - does not change anything on the doctrine and its arguments. That's a typical ad hominem argument and certainly not helpful. My personal thougt on this matter is: Even I can fall into the worst sin, and I want to pray more that God guard me lest I preach to others and disqualify myself by sin.
Listening to Chuck Swindoll years ago and having his study Bible in my library, no where does he say as long as you believe, you can live anyway you want. He believes in the Christian desiring to live a life of integrity and holiness. He just isn’t as dogmatic as someone as let’s say John MacArthur on the Lordship issue.
The failure of Lawson is sad for he, his family and the church he served and those he is involved with. While I may not agree with every perspective he may have I have respected and benefited from the ministry of Charles Swindoll.
Sinners prayer was instituted by evangelist like DL moody. At the end of his sermon the day before the great Chicago fire, he instructed the people to go home and take time to reflect on his sermon, and return the next day ready to profess salvation in Jesus Christ. However many people died in the fire. Moody vowed to never let the people leave a meeting with out first given the opportunity to pray to receive Christ. Thus the sinners prayer became the norm for most evangelicals.
Jay Vernon McGee was against lordship salvation as well the real issue is only God knows your heart. Somewhere along the line both camps need to agree you must be born again.
I don’t see how a person’s doctrinal beliefs on free will/predestination has implications on the likelihood of him succumbing to sexual temptation. A man is a man.
Agreed, I see many people attempting to explain Lawson's fall as having something to do with "Calvinism." As though plenty of other pastors with different or opposite theological views haven't also fallen. Anyone who lets their guard down is susceptible to such scandals.
@morriswilburn9858 But, I don't believe Pastor Grant was discussing that aspect, he was discussing the concepts of Lordship Salvation and Free Grace. My comment in agreement was that outside of this video, many are attacking Steve Lawson based on his Reformed beliefs.
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife You are on point. Men have been falling for women as far back as we care to look, and certainly well before there was a John Calvin.
I never said it does
For real. Not to mention there are many non Christians who have not cheated on their spouse. Men have been sining long before Jesus came. Mental knowledge and sound doctrine does not equal personal holiness. And this Lawson thing is exposing the delusion and blind spot on that side also. There seems to be a superiority complex and assumed perfectionism on the reformed space. No offense to anyone just troubling observation.
@@NotEasyButSimple I mean according to Lawson certain sins mean you are clearly not saved. How about cheating on your wife? If the dudes theology is right sounds like he is going to burn. Hypocritical at best lost at worst according to his own doctrine.
“Easy believism” is a funny name since it’s pretty apparent that most men find it very difficult to simply trust Jesus.
Most men simply don't believe in Jesus because we live in a fallen world, a world in darkness, a world in sin. Easy believe-ism is also wrong for Jesus Christ gave His life for the Church, all those whom the Father had given Him, His sheep.
Believing in Jesus requires a couple of things: 1. The Holy Spirit has to intervene in our sinful lives, and 2. The Holy Spirit has to give us His gift of faith, and 3. We have to receive it as an undeserved free gift.
Charles R Swindoll is the only non Reformed pastor I've always enjoyed listening to. He, R. C. Sproul, and John MacArthur were voices I grew up listening to on the radio.
They've been a big blessing! What are your thoughts on Charles Stanley, since he was also not Reformed?
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLifeNo longer with us. He was a great pastor and refuted predestination.
@@WhoGitDaBiscuitOops, edited for clarity regarding the fact that Stanley has indeed passed on.
Charles Stanley refuted predestination? He refuted the existence of a concept given in Scripture? 🤔
@@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife What are your thoughts on ANDY Stanley????
Quite ok @@JesusIsTheOnlyWayTruthLife
Sorry about the video / audio, I am in the process of buying new equipment.
You are just fine.
If King David failed in his morality, who do the rest of us think we are?
Underrated comment friend.
Thank you for your balanced approach. I love Chuck Swindoll and have listened to him for years, esp. when I was new in the faith. But I've been attending Grace Community Church for 27 years now and basically hold to MacArthur's position. However, as you said, there's a ditch on both sides, and we need to be diligent to stay on the road. Blessings to you!
The misunderstanding about "Lordship salvation" centers around the fact that, whether you are aware of it or not when you receive Christ, you don't make Jesus Savior or Lord, he already is those things. At issue, if I'm understanding it properly, is whether a believer accepts the fact that Jesus IS Lord over you - he suffered for you and died for you. That means he can do anything he wants with you. Many believers receive Christ as Savior only, not realizing that he may at any time instruct you to do something or change something in your life to conform to his will for your life. As important as consciously receiving him as Savior is, to be his disciple one must also regard him as Lord of their life and Lord over their life. "Take my will and make it thine - it shall be no longer mine."
Amen
@Jeffrey-c2z or how can one who is born dead in trespasses and sin can regenerate himself. As Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead so He raises us from the dead. A regenerate person has the HS in and with him. Therefore he cannot but help to make Jesus lord. You are right sir. Great call
Amen, brother. Well said. Praise Christ.
@@Jeffrey-c2z I'm reading your comment again Jeffery....you sir are my blessing 🙌
Dr Charles Swindoll “Chuck” is no easy believism salvation. I was at the church for 20 yrs. He would not say he’s a Calvinist but he did say he didn’t have issues with most of the TULIP. Steve Farrar was the men’s Bible study leader for 20 yrs and a rock solid Calvinist. I grew more there over 20 yrs than the previous 30 yrs. Chuck was not dogmatic about it as Lawson was.
@@scottbailey6960 Some Dallas Seminary faculty over the years have been Amyraldians (four point) Calvinists. S. Lewis Johnson has a series on that
Albert Mohler
Tim Keller
Alistair Begg
John Piper
--all Reformed pastors
@@amapola53 grace, all those are false teachers. Al Mohler is the cowardly wolf who has populated the SBC with woke wolves. Pastor Peter Masters and ES Williams have several videos on Mohler, Keller, Piper.
Many free grace people are 4 point Calvinists. Chuck has both preached and written articles against Lordship salvation.
@@jonahdav9589 I'm curious. Who would you recommend for a good Bible teacher?
Chuck Swindoll always impressed me as a happy Christian, and that was infectious.
I grew up with Dr Swindoll's teachings. I am grateful for it.
Same here. A gentle man, who loved Christ. Loved his sermons.
@@pvMMvp He loved begging for money more.
@@rhondae8222 ummm, okay. 🤣
It was through Chuck’s ministry that I came to faith around age 21/22 I’m 58 now. Many a drive listening on the radio.Thank you Chuck and G.. bless you. Enjoy your retirement 👍🏼
I've hung out with Chuck Swindoll and have listened to him, read him, for 30+ years. He is NOT opposed to the Lordship of Jesus. It's not two different camps, as you seem to indicate.
I've never met a free gracer who didn't believe that Jesus was Lord of all. They all, to a man, believe Jesus is Lord over all the world and everyone in it.
Do you mean by that he believed as Reformed believe that you will or must make Jesus your Lord, fully submitted to Him in every aspect of your life, or you cannot be saved? There is a BIG difference between not being "opposed to the Lordship of Jesus" and making His Lordship a requirement for saving faith. That's where you enter into adding works to the gospel of grace. It's not in the Bible, period.
The lordship of Jesus is not in question. “Lordship Salvation” is an entirely different definition.
Oh my goodness, the comments on this video are crazy. I never said he opposes the Lordship of Jesus, I said he opposed the theological position known as Lordship salvation. Its not the same.
@@Pastor_Grant Take a minute to consider the feedback your getting. It says a lot about your presentation, you choice of words and how you used them.
The "sinners prayer" didn't save anyone. The bible says "by faith". It says "believe". Of course that is believe on His finished work, and that He is worthy to perform that work of shedding His blood for our sins. He is worthy because He is the perfect Man and He IS GOD THE SON manifest in the flesh. Of course a prayer is certainly appropriate and I would recommend it but that is not what saves you. A prayer is likely almost spontaneous if you truly believe.
Amen brother! That’s the narrow way. Christ alone.
It's possible to believe in the context of a prayer. Not because of the prayer.
@@peterpulpitpounder
"Faith alone saves but saving faith is never alone."
That's a bunch of double talking.
Maybe that's not your opinion.
@@colonalklink14Faith Alone does indeed save you. Saving faith is never alone BECAUSE true saving Faith causes a radical change in a person. No double talk.
@@peterpulpitpounder We are saved by grace through faith. I've always felt it was a strawman argument saying "Just because you said a prayer when you were younger doesn't mean you're saved." No one, at least no one I've ever met, thinks that simply repeating words you don't even mean saves anyone. But if someone believes the gospel and cries out to God to be saved, then yes that person is saved.
Chuck Swindoll and John Macarthur were and are friends. We can agree to disagree on the non-essential.
Sure and It's sad some can't handle disagreement and talking about different Theological views
Except the doctrine of salvation is absolutely essential.
And the best way to deal with an essential doctrine like that is to meditate on the totality of scripture so it will teach you, not some seminary professor.
I don't think you gave Chuck Swindoll a fair account of what he taught. I found this to be somewhat upsetting to do on the same day he retired. He was a faithful, humble teacher of God's Word through radio, books, and ministry.
It was his position, I gave the man credit at the end, I said he is worthy of respect. I did not disrespect him at all I just disagree with the free grace position.
@@Pastor_Grant If grace isn't free it cannot truly be called grace. The very nature of grace is there is no merit on the part of the recipient. Any change in a person's life at the moment of salvation is not because of their inward will to "make a change", but because God regenerates (new birth) that person, and the Holy Spirit of God immediately takes up residence. That transaction happens in an instant and their eternal salvation is a done deal forever. The degree of change or dedication will not be the same for every believer and yes, some NEVER grow in grace and certainly many never make Jesus the Lord of their lives or become dedicated disciples. Whatever change does take place is the result of what God did, not what we set out to do.
It’s just that his personality was not belligerent. He is straight line orthodox, but he doesn’t fit the model of the “cult of chip on shoulder.”
@@musicappreciateYES!
@@randyd9805 So true. II Timothy 2:15 - Ephesians 1:13-14 - I Corinthians 15:1-4.
Really glad the algorithm brought me her, today. Thank you Ps Michael, settled what I've been wrestling with.
Well explained Pastor Michael. I now have a clearer understanding, thank you.
Love Chuck and have been listening to him and he's sermons for about 30 years ❤
I stopped listening to Swindoll after he began begging for money in 2012 and until he retired. He also holds to free Grace Doctrine which is unbiblical.
Ephesians 2:8-10 seems to me so clear: salvation by grace and faith alone (no works, no merit) that will blossom in good works because we are new creation in Christ
I Think there's a misunderstanding on his definition of "Lordship Salvation" We make the Jesus the Lord of our life. However we are Tempted by Sin. The Behavior is Mark of being redeemed. However growth is continuous (Sanctification) if we don't struggle everyday in our daily lives in any area of our lives were not being honest with ourselves. Everyday is an opportunity to be obedient to God's Word, to Walk in the Spirit. The Perfection will not happen this side of Heaven. Justified ! Sanctified ! Glorified 🙌
Thanks for this video, I don’t think any other UA-camr discussing Lawson has highlighted this yet.
Seems like too far in either direction is a problem. I’m glad you clarified that.
“If you love me >keep< my commandments”
Keep means to respectfully regard and to carefully guard.
“Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I would not sin against you”
We “keep” His commandments by treasuring them. Our “keeping” His commandments leads to more obedience.
Grace and grace only
“No works to prove that you are saved”… that’s not what scripture teaches: “But to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith IS COUNTED for righteousness.” Romans 4:5. The thief on the cross was the perfect example of this, he BELIEVED on Christ for the forgiveness of all sins.
Fruit will follow regeneration...the thief had repentance....no time and opportunity for anything else. Don't be a minimalist
@@Gaoda-p4y where does it say in the bible: “fruit will follow regeneration”? Don’t add to the word of God.
@@Gaoda-p4y BTW THANK YOU for calling a “minimalist” when it comes to the “simplicity that’s in Christ” 👍
@@Gaoda-p4y “the thief had repentance”, correct he changed his mind from unbelief to belief in Christ. 👍
@@18thCadianArmyGroup yup...the lord opened his heart to believe...n left the other gut in his sin...
I listen to him each day on Sacremento 710, between Allister and John MacArthur. Been lifted up by his messages!
Great content here. Appreciate your take and commentary.
Glad you said the truth is down the middle. It's both, I think the new Christian normally doesn't understand the Lordship side but that is what discipleship is for. The just shall live by faith is a theme throughout the bible. It's a razor edge that none of us can stay on 100% of the time or we wouldn't need a saviour. Paul over and over in his epistles had to say that he wasn't promoting living in sin so that people would understand his grace message.
That's why we need God's Grace. All of us are fallen and only By His Grace we are saved, and sanctified and will be glorified. All of us will be rewarded according to our labors.
Pastor Swindoll is not a perfect man. and I think he has clarified that through all the years of ministry. So is Pastor Lawson. One fell the other is about to finish. But both of them received the same Grace but different in finishing the race.
We all can start looking out to their mistakes and sins. And critique every inch of it. We can start finding finding bones in their closets but again, God has been so gracious to the both of them.
I think it's not right to for us to find one another's faults.
Pastor Lawson is now being disciplined by his local church.
We are to pray for him and his family. Intercede for him. He made a great decision to go to the elders and confess his sin. He sure knows the consequences of it but as a man convicted by God's Word, he did the right thing. He stepped down even to his own founded ministry. Things are in God's control now.
Jesus said,
John 8:7 KJV
...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her...
Paul Warned...
1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
On the other hand, Pastor Swindoll, is about to finish the race that was set before him. Yes, we have disagreements on many things, but his gospel is not another Gospel.
He is not to be put on a pedestal, but he is to be esteemed. He is a man of God, who will be finishing his course any moment, yet here comes the "believers of Christ" who are about to find fault in him.
Can we not just pray for him that he might finish the course?
For Pastor Lawson, may it serve as a lesson that even the People who are mighty in Scriptures might fal if he isn't sober minded.
For Pastor Swindoll may he be an encouragement to us as Christians, that a life with Christ is not easy. The race is difficult. The road is narrow and the steep. Yet, it is possible to finish the race like Apostle Paul who told timothy
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." - 2 Timothy 4:7-8 KJV
The question for is here is,
Are we able to finish the course like Pastor Swindoll or like Pastor Lawson.
Hebrews 12:1-2 KJV
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that Chuck Swindoll was on the Free Grace side. I have many of his books and did not pick that up from his writings. Steve Lawson has been a very strong teacher/preacher for decades and what has happened will affect the church for a long time to come. It is incredibly sad and very hurtful to many that a man with this kind of worldwide impact would fall like this. When you become Born Again, your life is changed forever. Sure you still sin, but certainly not to the extend that Lawson did. He was constantly in the word and he knew better than most about temptation and yet he allowed for this to happen. WE all most be constantly vigilant to all temptation because ultimately when we sin, we disgrace Jesus. Those around him did right by removing him entirely from ministry. He is a terrible testimony. AND now people will wonder if he was saved at all, because of the scope of his sin. Free Grace is not Salvation.
Grace is indeed tree; we receive it by faith if we accept Christ.
And you'd better stay away from Calvinism.
@@RonaldMillsaps Calvinism is the very foundation of the Bible. Praise Christ. You lack biblical understanding if you reject the Doctrines of Grace (Election and the Doctrine of Election). Praise Christ.
Amen!
I have , always particularly enjoyed the teachings of Swindoll, as well as MacArthur, Sproul, Tozer, Washer, even Spurgeon, and others over the years. After hearing of the different views on certain issues, it reminds me that, indeed, the ‘road is narrow, and there are few who find it.’ O Holy Spirit, open our eyes, teach us the Truth, not of men but of God, our Father❤️🙏❤️ All of this is so very disconcerting. If it is unsettling for long-time Believers, imagine what new Believers are going through. ❤️🙏❤️
It should not be about enjoyment; rather it should be about hearing biblical truth. Swindoll taught free Grace which is not biblical. Praise Christ.
Charles Swindoll was my pastor when I was saved in 1974. Have often watched his Stonebriar services online. Wishing him Happy Retirement though he has said he'll be back in the pulpit now and then. Grace and peace to you and Cynthia Pastor Chuck!
I could never buy into "no Lordship salvation."
Lordship salvation is NOT unbiblical for Jesus Christ is both Lord and Saviour and we are saved by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and Him alone.
By the way Arminians have it completely wrong for they believe that we must make Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour personally (aka decisional regeneration) when in fact Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour and we cannot make Him anything He already is.
What the Reformed Orthodox position is is that as Christians we embrace Jesus Christ and Lord and Saviour because the Holy Spirit has regenerated us through the gift of faith prior to us believing on Him.
If someone claims that Jesus Christ is their Saviour, but don't believe He is their Lord then they are either not genuinely saved or misunderstand Jesus Christ's attributes of lordship and salvation.
By the way we are not saved by the right Theology, but by Jesus Christ, who has given us the right Theology about Himself in His Word, our Bible.
It is very disappointing that Steve Lawson, while having the right Theology, chose to disobey God and sinned. It is also disturbing that Steve was not an official member at the Church he preached at, nor that his wife not accompanied him at various spiritual events he was part of on a consistent basis.
Good Word brother. You have a sweet heart. GBU
Steve Lawson, more than anyone else in the many years that I have been born again, has influenced my theology and Christian life. His series on the attributes of God exposed how I had “squeezed” God into God is love, which He is, and shortsighted myself to His other attributes, such as wrath, justice, judgment, and vengeance. His teaching on the Trinitarian Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, showed how I had also locked Him into the Godman Jesus of the gospels, ignoring the resurrected Jesus who threatened churches in Revelation with serious consequences if they didn’t repent. It showed me that the Trinitarian Jesus, God the Son, is demanding when it comes to sin in the church - and in my life. Stop sinning! Steve’s teachings unmasked the sentimentalist Jesus I had grown accustomed to who is soft on sin: the Jesus of most of the American church and in my life: not the “real” Jesus. God used Steve to instill in me that Jesus “demands” me to live a holy life. I believe when saved you are saved forever. But Jesus is also my Judge, and of all born-again believers. He died so He will see the agony of His soul and be satisfied (Isaiah 53: 11); all born-again believers are the agony of His soul. And I want Him to be fully satisfied with me because I took sin seriously beyond new birth to live a holy life. God used Steve Lawson to teach me it and to move forward to where I am today - and the knowledge of the Word to keep moving forward until I reach heaven. Never once did I think of him as a celebrity preacher, nor on a pedestal - only as a man who rightly divided the Word of God. Be careful how you denigrate his work. And him. You could be guilty of sin right along with Steve.
Honest question here. I attend Swindoll's church and he gives out the gospel at the end of every sermon. But I never heard him say that way you put it: "a person can be saved but he can still live like a carnal Christian." Can you please provide a link where he actually says that?
Its the anti Lordship view that he holds. He obviously isn't going to encourage people to live carnally but if they do he isn't going to......you need to investigate his position. If he is your pastor you should just ask him.
From what I’ve observed from Lawson, I think he’s a five point Calvinist. Is that also Lordship Salvation?
@@Mary-hs3guLawson just disqualified himself from the pastorate. But, yes, it’s lordship salvation.
@@Mary-hs3gu its not the same but the two often go together
@@WhoGitDaBiscuit Thanks.
Appreciate you bringing up the Lordship Controversy. I do think it’s somewhat relevant. I lean more Free Grace but both sides have strawmen arguments. One thing that always amazed me was that Lordship proponents don’t believe in such thing as the carnal Christian. But look no further than David, Solomon, Lot, and 1 Cor 3, and you’ll see carnal believers. Lawson was always so dogmatic against that, as you said. Are we to immediately question Lawson’s conversion? I think not. That’s God’s business.
Bottom line, Christ is Lord because the Father made him Lord (Acts 2:36). We all vary in our practical acknowledgment of that but it doesn’t change that fact, but it’s based on what God did not what we do. But the Lawson family needs prayer right now, even if I disagree with him on this matter.
Chuck Swindoll: great man of God.
Lordship does allow for Carnal Christians, they just say the person cannot remain in that state forever. Free Grace says you can.
That’s where you’ll see a range of viewpoints. Zane Hodges would say you could remain there forever. Ryrie implied that it could appear outwardly that way but inwardly there would be conflict. MacArthur, in his original book, basically argued that Christians can fall from time to time, but not have a pattern of falling. I would say carnal Christianity is defined as a pattern of falling or sinning. It may not be forever, but it’s certainly a prolonged period, even years.
You are certainly correct that there are ditches on either side. I think the main thing that we need to focus on is not our performance, but on the sufficiency and preeminence of Christ. Once we become too focused on ourselves, that’s when we fall into a dependence on ourselves, and not on the One who gave Himself up for us and freely, gives us all things.
A carnal Christian is someone who professes Christ but live in continual sin
David was not a carnal Christian, most of his life he grew in his obedience to GOD, though he had a terrible fall in sin, read Psalm 51 to see the depth of repentance that only comes from a saint
Solomon was not a carnal Christian, he sinned seriously but eventually repented near the end of his life and wrote the book of Ecclesiastes and many proverbs
There is no support for a carnal Christian in the Bible. That’s why the “free grace theology” is so dangerous, it gives false assurance to many unbelievers, making them false converts
One cannot be a true believer (Christian) in Christ as carnal. Romans 8. Look at verses 5-6: “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
@@Pastor_Grant One cannot be a true believer (Christian) in Christ as carnal. Romans 8. Look at verses 5-6: “For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
Reformed theology asserts that genuine faith in Christ will inevitably lead to a transformed life. This transformation is marked by a new desire to obey God's commands, not out of legalistic obligation, but out of love for Christ who is now the Lord of one's life.
The concept of "carnal Christians," as some propose, suggests that one can have genuine faith in Christ without any substantial change in their lifestyle or behavior. This idea is not in alignment with Lordship Salvation, nor is it consistent with the biblical teaching on sanctification.
The Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, reminds the Corinthians that they were once characterized by sinful behaviors, but they have been washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This indicates a clear change in their lives as a result of their faith in Christ.
After watching hours of Theocast, and reading that part in John where Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharasies could not understand, because if they understood they could believe, and if they believed, they WOULD be saved. And then Judas being the one who _never_ believed.
The last couple months I've been erring on the side of free grace, and the love I have for my fellow believers is beautiful now. I used to second guess everyone's salvation, because I'd be questioning my own all the time, all based on my performance at the time. It was so depressing and distancing. Exhausting.
To really believe John three 16 & 17!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
The preacher is to proclaim the freeness of salvation and the high cost of discipleship without conflating the two.
Lordship salvation is salvation by free grace. There is no salvation without grace, which by definition is free. The problem with the teaching that you can have Christ as Saviour without him being Lord is that it contradicts all of the New Testament, because without holiness we will not be received into God's presence.
According to Calvinism, Steve Lawson's sin was determined by the Lord from the foundation of the world. And if you are a radical Calvinist,God manipulated scenarios to bring him to this place of sin. This is why I refute the misguided teachings of Calvinism and the terrible misunderstanding of who God is in relation to creation and people.
Shows you don't understand the doctrine of grace and just spewing out bias repeated by anti calvinists.
I'm pretty sure the pastor's wife expected Lordship Salvation as regards to adultery - and you should also demand this. This shouldn't be controversial.
You are 100% correct!
@torokun Actually, you are the one not understanding God's grace. Tell me, what is Jesus saying in Rev.22:17?
What simple minded statement…more like lazy minded.
Mr Lawson was not afraid doing his actions. No fear for God, he didnot believe his own teachings.
Just a day job.
Do you know S Lawson ?
Your comments are … RUBBISH !
@@TonyTaylor-j1r seen and heard him preaching. And now know what he was doing between his talks. They dont match.
Rather than put your trust in man, you need to put your trust in the Lord Jesus. Praise Christ.
Thank you for the video by the way nice summary of the positions. I have seen both "free grace" and "lordship salvation" types push the prayer (some version of the sinners prayer) without saying one word about faith, trust, believing, or what Christ accomplished on the cross. I think that is very confusing and the gospel gets nebulous and lost when they do that.
Free Grace places a heavy emphasis on the gospel of salvation almost to a fault.
@@gregorylatta8159 Is that even possible?
@@gregorylatta8159- Explain this please.
I completely agree! Unfortunately, I think there are millions who said a "prayer" and believe they're saved and they're not! I've seen people pray the prayer multiple times and it not impact their life at all. Perhaps grace and lordship salvation are two sides of the same coin and it's not an either/or issue. Just a thought....
@@kristenyurek4490What do you mean impact their life??? Why is a believer not saved???
There are extremes on both sides. Free grace can be extreme, and Lordship salvation can be extreme. I have to admit that I was very surprised to hear about Dr. Lawson and his problems. Apparently the relationship had gone on for five years and the ladies father threatened exposure for what I understand, but don’t quote me. It is amazing to me how harsh Dr. Lawson could be against people who stumble, particularly in sexual areas. Of course we are called to purity, but one thing I have noticed about ministers who constantly rail against particular sins… Many times they struggle with those exact same sins, so it is like projection or cognitive dissidents. Five years of that going on and railing against men that have issues in that area. Of course, we are to preach against sin, but it is interesting how many people who talk about certain things a lot tend to have those same issues. He called ministers who fell in that area, the fool of all fools it is so sad and I pray for his wife and family and for his repentance
❤Chuck such a Great MAN OF GOD LISTENED TO CHUCK FO A LONG TIME ❤
I've been listening to ptr. swindoll for quite sometime, and I do not see him as some preacher who implied easy believism. No, ptr. chuck is against duplicity in christianity or "carnal christians" and most certainly if you are a part and participating in any ministry especially in pastoral level. So I think that you are barking at the wrong tree, your opinion/view is irrelevant.
2 Corinthians 12:9: "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me".
Brother- it doesn't matter what side of theology you claim, anyone can fall. In this side of life, until we are in glory, we will be tempted, stumble, and maybe even fall just as Pastor Steve Lawson has. I cannot speak and will not dare assume how bad the situation is with Steve, but I appreciate the fact that the brother came to his elders and openly admit his sin. I believe that says he has repented and God will restore him (1 John 1:9). Let's stop pointing the finger about this and that and be prayerful towards one another!
Why do think Steve will not say he repents?
I believe the statement his church put out said he had been REMOVED, not that he resigned, that doesn't sound like a man with a repenting spirit. As arrogant and condescending as Lawson is, I can see him pulling the ol judge not excuse and the church leadership telling him to hit the road.
It's the duty of the church to remove a pastor or elder if they are no longer qualified, so for the church to have let him resign would have betrayed that duty. Two things can still be true at the same time: Lawson comes to the elders and confesses his sin, perhaps with true repentance, and then the elders, while forgiving him, still must execute the ordained penalty of removing him, and I think Lawson would have and did understand that already.
I never said your theology will determine whether or not you fall. I'm just explaining their positions.
@@Pastor_Grant Brother- didn't you implied that? You said because Steve Lawson was so dagmatic/ rigid about his stance on Lordship salvation, this is why his issue is so surprising! Aren't you judging him and saying that his life should exemplify total obedience? All I'm saying is let us stop all this nonsense judgemental hatred and making interpretations on who the perpetrator is and what he has done. All of us can fall at any moment because our enemy knows our weaknesses, He is watching and waiting (1 Pet. 5:8) for the perfect moment to trip us up. I saw that video where Steve Lawson was telling the young man that unless your life is pure- God will not use you. Well, he's wrong (Steve was making an arogant statement) about that! God can use anyone and that is because of God's grace.
How does that Lordship thing work for Steve Larson now? Just curious.
I found this statement and I completely agree with it. It's a more middle of the road take on free grace and Lordship salvation
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The only “work” required for salvation is trusting in Jesus Christ, in His death and resurrection, as the full payment for your sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Even this “work” of believing is empowered and enabled by God (John 6:44).
Repentance is a change of mind from an embrace of sin and rejection of Christ into an embrace of Christ and rejection of sin (Acts 2:38; 3:19). Repentance, just like faith, is empowered and enabled by God (Acts 11:18), and often goes hand-in-hand with faith at the moment of salvation. The Holy Spirit’s convicting work is powerful (John 16:8). It is difficult to imagine how someone could understand the gospel, what Christ did for us on the cross, and for there to be no amount of repentance about the sin that put Jesus on that cross.
A Christian is a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is saved, redeemed, reconciled, regenerated, and justified. It is unfathomable that those could occur and yet not result in a noticeable change in a person’s life. After listing a series of sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, the apostle Paul declared, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11, emphasis added).
Discipleship is the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20). Christians being discipled (taught, trained, baptized, mentored, encouraged, rebuked, and held accountable) plays a tremendous role in their spiritual growth. While it is perfectly within the power of the Holy Spirit for Him to bring a person to spiritual maturity entirely on His own, that is not typically how the Holy Spirit operates. If Christians are not discipled, or are discipled poorly, or never avail themselves of discipleship opportunities, there may only be a minimal amount of spiritual fruit in their lives (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; Hebrews 5:12-6:3).
Sgrongly agree with you Mr. Grant. The Israelite Sampson is the perfect example of a life that was reprobate but still 'saved'. Should have been a big time leader of the Hebrews but fell away very early in life. Even a drug addict or porn addicted can still be 'saved' but can still be punished.
My husband and I are reformed baptists but we both grew up on Chuck Swindoll and James Dobson. As you can tell our stance on salvation changed from free grace to Lordship salvation. As far as anti nomianism goes it’s on the Lordship salvation side of things too! We’ve seen whole reformed churches that believed they could live how ever they wanted to because they were saved by grace through faith.
Almost no one would assert we should live ungodly lives if we are saved. Making godly living a requirement for salvation is clearly heretical, however.
@@gregorylatta8159 if we are not living Godly we are probably not saved
Amen.
@@floydmiller9670 - That's a whole different issue than making growth a requirement of salvation. Roots and fruits are two different things.
Whether Lordship or Antinomianism(I didn't check for spelling, sorry legalists) neither quantifies how much fruit is enough, how much evidence is enough to prove salvation, or how much sinning negates true salvation. It sounds like the Lordship camp has control issues. Grace is grace. What do you do with the Corinthians?
There seems to be a sacred tension between (and I know semantics can be a problem) Lordship Salvation and Easy Believism. Each likely uses hyperbole in characterizing the other. I believe the Bible warns against the paradigms that each describe the other as embracing. Fact is, both Swindoll and Lawson would preach 2 Cor. 5:17 and Romans 6 very similarly, warning against exploiting grace as license. They would also both likely acknowledge the importance of believers "making every effort to add to their faith..." those qualities of growth found in 2 Peter 1:5-8, both likely acknowledging (especially now) that a true believer can fail to walk in the Spirit and lose the war against the flesh on any given day (Gal. 5). That's why I try to avoid embracing the "Lordship Salvation" or the "Easy Believism" title and strive for a biblical balance that acknowledges the Lordship of Christ at salvation AND the need (and room) to grow in sanctification as positional Lordship becomes more and more who I am practically. We must admit Jesus IS Lord and Grace IS Free as the price has already been paid.
The problem I see with this, when I look at today's christians, is that this grace alone by faith alone seems to leave many as if they are but mere pictures frozen in time that do not ever change according to the encouragements and admonitions of the apostles. I see this because most christians are not genuine; they are those who have a mere christian flavored religion of no consequence whatever camp they happen to reside in. That's why grace alone is so attractive to people who have no intention on repenting; they shopped for a religion and found "christianity" to be the most attractive, as a Middle Easterner would no doubt see Islam as favorable. Neither religion does them any benefit. In their case, grace alone never changed anything but their mouths. I never see grace doing anything for so many people except supposedly covering their flagrant sinning, and that's where most of their rancor emanates from when anyone challenges their notion of what is means to be saved. To be sure, it most certainly IS by grace alone, but that doesn't mean they have even a scintilla of this grace judging by their lives. But even the apostles could not judge them; the Tares resemble the Wheat too much. This is how millions have jumped on the Jesus bandwagon only to fall off a distance down the road.
Chuck Swindoll lived well but preached cheap grace. Steve Lawson lived like a wolf in sheeps clothing but at least he understood salvation the right way.
I think we need to be careful that we distinguish one over the other. In listening to Chuck Swindoll he spike about Grace while at the same time he would talk about obedience to Christ and His Word. One of the things that I really think distingused him from other pastors is his autenticity and humility. He was always very transparent with his congregation. He was a grace oriented pastor who drew people in the Grace of God through his Biblical exposition of God's Word. He will be missed.
I grew up in a Baptist Church, moved to Presbyterian when married and am now in an Anglican Church for the beauty of the liturgy. I don't think I've ever head any doctrine other than submission to the lordship of Christ in any of these churches.
Lordship salvation is the biblical position which is part of the reason John wrote his gospel so people will know all it means to believe that Jesus is the Christ (John 20:31) and is spoken by Thomas when he finally had proof to believe he called Jesus his Lord and God (John 20:28).
He is already Lord.
You making Jesus Lord and Master of your life is a lifetime of works and has never saved anyone.
That's a service issue.
Salvation is absolutely free and not conditional upon service to God.
@@colonalklink14 You do not make Him Lord but you do recognize Him as Lord as the gospel of John teaches with the "I AM" statements and the miracles performed and Thomas did in John 20:28 and Paul offers in Romans 10:9-10. What many Christians fail to do is grasp the comprehensive teaching of scripture on a subject including the God (Lord) Man Jesus Christ.
The Bible is clear that we don't have to do works for salvation. I agree with Chuck. I fail all the time, but I will keep trying. Thanks for the video.
Lordship salvation wasn't invented by John MacArthur. It was Jesus who came up with Lordship salvation.
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
- Matthew 10:38-39
Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:27
"Follow Me", means "do what I say always".
God bless ALL of you. Read Psalm 19v1
They all have their place . I thought Charles Swindoll was very watered down, in the Gospel, but His work in Lamentations, David , Elijah, He did some remarkable work. With that said He is Lord .God dose the Saving,It's Grace alone, a Life seeking to honour God will follow. A lot of the Leaders and pastor have ecumenical practices cause they embrace Bill Bright, Billy Graham ,Luis palue, All Three ecumenical. They did the Body of Christ no favours.
If lordship salvation is correct, then Steve Lawson was never a Christian because he this went on longer than a "hiccup". Lawson never truly repented (like David) because he was forced by his girlfriend's father to confess. Lordship theology demands he be called out as a wolf in sheep's clothing (Matt. 7:15), a tree that bears bad fruit (Matt. 7:18), and that he is not of us because he went out from us (1 John 2:19). Then the turret should turn to the leaders close to him (including McArthur) who lacked the discernment to weed out an unbelieving leader. They need to be consistent in applying their theology even when it comes to their friends.
@@anonymous-lt3yd there's truth to what you're saying. I'm not sure MacArthur could know however. They do need to be consistent now also remember, David was called out himself by Nathan so he didn't exactly offer that up on his own so getting caught can lead to repentance. Time will tell with Lawson, word is he hasn't returned to his church since it came out which is not a good sign.
@Pastor_Grant Thanks for your comments. However, I think the appeal to David's repentance is under a different covenant and dynamic of the Holy Spirit. What I can just about promise you is that Lawson will be struck from the record just like Billy Weber was from Prestonwood Baptist Church. I took a really hard look at lordship theology years ago when Jack Graham preached on The Prodigal Son.
It is a good point that the truth is in the middle. There is a ditch on both sides, living in sin or trying to work our way by our own works. JESUS must save us, as sinners, but He gives us His Holy Spirit and we are sanctified and changed continually into His image, as Romans 8 states, this is God's will and if we love Him we keep His commands. We must teach this and make born again disciples.
I have taught for years - “Behavior follows belief.” A person who truly believes will have som sanctification take place. However, Lordship salvation DOES NOT mean sinless perfection. I think your intentions are pure, but be careful of setting up a straw man.
Thats not what I was saying. But if you listen to Lawson's video on lust he implies one serious sin will be enough proof that a person is not saved.
He was saying how lordship salvation basically backloads works. They say if your not living a "Holy" enough life then 2 things, some believe in one of these 2) 1. They fell out of grace (ie lost salvation) OR 2. Most fall here but they believe if there are not enough fruits, then they were never truly saved in the first place. These guys assume that the "I never knew you" in Matthew 24 were just false converts but there is way more evidence to support that Matthew 24 was referring to people that believed their works justified them, or their fruits or their sanctified life etc etc. Your argument of "some" sanctification is something that can't be quantified. How much sanctification? What's the grading scale? Last I checked, God DOES require sinless perfection. Thank God he sent Jesus to be that perfect sacrifice because if it was on us and our sanctification, Heaven would be empty.
@@jonathanluke2670 I think basically I agree with what you are saying. Most definitely you are correct in saying that “God does require sinless perfection” and Jesus fulfills that requirement for us. My belief that some sanctification is required is supported right at the end of this chapter comparing men who who built their house and the rock vs. the sand. It fits the context that this is salvation. I think building on the rock represents sanctified works - BUT I am not dogmatic here. I would also add the works ARE NOT meritorious here, only the result of coming to faith. I do not claim to have all the answers. Truthfully I struggle with verses in Romans which state “We will be judged by our works…” Romans 2:6-12. I struggle with this verse and can only reconcile it with grace if the works are evidence. Again, not dogmatic - willing to listen to other views. However, I KNOW we are saved by grace WITHOUT meritorious works because it’s the Bible’s basic message throughout.
Just to throw another pebble in this pond, I’m 62. And been in many church cultures moving around the country. And because of that, I’ve gleaned many “nuggets” in ALL the theological camps.
I agree, the charismatics are way too loosey-goosey with their obedience and many have fallen (unsurprisingly) into scandalous sin.
The thing that makes reformed calvinists falling so shocking, is their devotion to discipline. imagine if John MacArthur had fallen? Whether or not you’re in his camp or agree on everything he teaches and he believes (which I don’t), it would devastate me to know a man like that could speak so clearly on truth theologically and live his life so counter to that.
Also CS Lewis and his amazing theological creativity had some wonky theological dispositions. And yet I don’t think anybody on this comment thread has not gained some thing from him. I think once people are dead they’re harder to judge. And no man except Jesus is free from the possibility.
Oh, and one more thing about “lordship salvation “ The first 👥 Disciples “accepted Jesus“ as Lord before they accepted him as Savior. The idea of lordship salvation the way that we understand it is kind of goofy. Because he has to be Lord first.
every New Testament person laid their lives in his hands as Lord first…in our context savior and lord are one in the same thing as Faith and Evidence should be one of the same thing as in two sides of the coin.
People who say they believe in Jesus and yet no one would know that except that they said it are no different than any other cognitive dissonance liar in our world
I believe it it better to use Biblical terminology. Read and understand the entire Bible before adopting any fancy position.
In a debate between a Lordship Salvationist and an Easy Gracer, at least one of them has to be wrong. We have to wonder: what exactly is the Holy Spirit doing to the mind/heart of the person who is wrong? Is the Holy Spirit "trying" to make him see the light, but isn't quite able to make it happen? Or does the person in the wrong continue being wrong because the Holy Spirit doesn't want them to recognize the truth just yet?
If the first option is correct, then god is not sovereign, since his "trying" often results in a failure of his purpose to make somebody see the light.
If the second option is correct, the person in the wrong has a valid excuse for their heresy:
"I stayed in heresy for so long because God didn't want me to recognize the truth during that time".
Both sides have valid points, sometimes we are presented with a false dilemma and we fall into the mindset that we must choose between the Republican or Democrat, which one is good for the country and come to find out they are both bad.....but one is usually less bad.
@@Pastor_Grant When two Christians debate a theological point and one of them has to be wrong (like in the debate between a Calvinist and an Arminian), does the Holy Spirit want the person who is wrong, to recognize they are wrong, yes or no?
If one listens to Chuck Swindoll preach on James 2, he does take the view that a true believer will have good works to validate the genuineness of his salvation. So next time, please acknowledge that when critiquing
I don't think I was critiquing Swindoll was I? I don't remember doing that, I said he was worthy or respect. I was simply pointing out that these men held to opposite views and that Swindoll defended the free grace position while Swindoll critiqued Lordship Salvation, don't remember criticizing Chuck at all, can you give me a quote of what I said with time stamp that you object to?
Jesus teaches us to deny ourselves take up our cross & follow him...progressive sanctification
Your explanation is excellent.
Lordship Salvation knocks out eternal security and carnality.
Your statement is not biblical. Praise Christ.
I absolutely love Chuck Swindoll and his teachings of Free, Grace
Great teaching thank you!
Doctrinal positions of these men are like human shields in a war. If you hit one, you don’t actually hit the enemy, but something seemingly insignificant but real dies in the process.
Since when does reformed have the monoply on repenting and surrendering your life to the Lord? Loving the Lord more than anything else.
We also must maintain and sustain our relationship with Him.
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.' - John Newton
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works."
It's all grace from start to finish. Salvation (past present and future: justification, sanctification, and glorification) is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Romans 6:14: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."
2 Peter 3:18: "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."
"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." - 2 Corinthians 12:9
I can see value in both sides but ya know how we humans are we gotta win and win big so to speak. We definitely can take certain stances too far. Not very long ago I was in a tailspin over listening to preachers give messages from Paul’s teaching and preachers giving sermons on the book of James plus a few of Jesus’ parables. The good that came out of it was it drove me to my knees for clarity
Pastor Grant,
I have chatted here in the comments with you for a while now.
I thought you would want to know. I have rejected works-righteousness in favor of Sola Gratia, Sola fide.
Just wanted to share that.
Have you found a good church yet?
@@Pastor_Grant i have not. I hesitate to return to my former one, just because of some hypocrisy that went on there and lack of helpfulness as I devolved into the Hebrew Roots Movement for a while. But I also do not want to go to, say an Elevation church as it will likely be more mystic than I intend. I am also non-determinist, but Sola fide so figure that one out XD
In general, I'm weighing options and praying.
If you could pray for me, that God tells me where to go/guides me to the place He wants me, I'd appreciate it : )
Sorry, but I just saw a term I have never seen before. TULIP? Would someone please enlighten me? If you are not Calvinist, are you Arminian? (no, I do not know Arminianism, do not know the difference) Don’t recall seeing either of those terms in the New Testament.
UTUBE, ALL OF LEIGHTON FLOWERS VIDEOS. HE IS A WONDERFUL, CLEAR TEACHER ON THESE SUBJECTS. .
TULIP aka the 5 points of Calvinism, highlighting the sovereignty of God in salvation. Its a theological term so you would not find it in the Bible. 5 Point Calvinists would say you are Arminian if you deny any of the 5 points. That is their view, it doesn't necessarily make it so.
Tulip...total depravity, un something, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints( once saved always saved)
Basically the belief that God only loves and chooses some for salvation. He has chosen the"elect" for no reason from the foundation of the earth. He just chooses this way because he's sovereign. The TULIP causes one to read into Scripture an ideology that goes against most of the Bible and to read into Scripture things that aren't there. It really changes how we are God's nature. Always a good thing to figure out what a pastor is before joining a church because it changes some meanings of their wording and focus of Scripture. Plenty of pastors don't actually tell what they are outright. I know people going to a very large Calvinist run church who don't know that it is steeped in it, their books and classes are slowly training the people into the belief system. We just left a church of 25 years because our pastoral search committee did not screen it out and the pastor is trying to flip the church theology. It makes a difference in how one sees God and salvation. Good to figure it out. I learned a lot from Leighton Flowers who was once a dogmatic Calvinist and came out of it
Great commentary
Count me in the minority, but I am one of those who believes that the so-called "Free Grace" and "Lordship Salvation" points of view are really not all that far apart, and as you said, both have valid points. I certainly believe there are genuine believers on each side of this debate. The fact is, if one is truly saved, then Jesus IS our Lord, whether we explicitly acknowledge that fact or not! But at the same time, salvation is by grace through faith in the substitutionary death of Christ for our sins, and not by anything else that we add to it, not even a holy life.
Thank you for your comments.Very helpful.
I recon My Salvation was Sealed ( Locked In ) when I merely Believed Trusted CHRIST JESUS just over 50 years ago ( Lutheran Camp Counselor ) Was led to Fundamentalist Baptist Church a few years later, got somewhat disillusioned of some leaders, fellowshipped to more 'Reformed' groups in college in early 80s . Got somewhat disillusioned with some 'Reformed' doctrines ( A Mill ) and got influenced by Charismatic brethren and against my prior discernment sought a tongues experience only to get trapped by Oneness UPCi doctrine a Baptism which according to their interpretation of Acts 2:38 is the means of having the Blood of Christ applied. Being vexed and loosing my Assurance though I still held the utmost belief in the BIBLE, I sought guidance under JMac, Sproul and later Washer, Comfort ( Torment ) and more Calvinistic minded groups but got more depressed by Lordship emphasis of discipleship-oriented salvation.
Despite over 40 years of vexation & depression, I still Trust JESUS CHRIST and the I will Stand Before the FATHER IN HIS Imputed Righteousness.
It sounds like you've really been through the wringer! I was saved on April 3, 1977, when I went forward at a newly started Independent Baptist Church. I was led to Christ with the Romans Road. I know for certain I was born again as I prayed a simple sinner's prayer for salvation and I was literally being led to pray a prayer affirming what I was just taught from the Romans Road. During that prayer, I trusted Christ and knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that I was born again. It is only by the imputed righteousness of Christ and having all our sins placed upon Him that anyone will stand before God and spend eternity with Him. It can never be lost even momentarily because we fail to live up to some standard. It truly is God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ and not of our works lest any man should boast. This is only a part of my testimony, but it's the most important part! "For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved."
I can definitely relate to a lot of this. Just recently started attending a church that’s reformed, I’m about to just stop going. Tired of all these different religions. Bible is enough for me 😎
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus
@@joycebegnaud9645 "Heb forsake not the assembling of yourselves together" The church keeps us fed, humble and opportunities to serve. who does not want you in church and fed? Listen to the Holy Spirit and remember we are all sinners saved by grace. Peace
@@Godlvr008 I went to many different churches over the years, paid my tithes, volunteered and served religiously. Was not fed spiritually whatsoever. I don’t need a building to feed me, God’s word is what feeds me. My family has grown tremendously in the Lord since we got out of church buildings. I only recently started attending. But I don’t want to get into anymore false teachings. I would rather be going out in the streets and serving, instead of sitting in a building week after week and doing not much of anything. God Bless 😎
Ive been endeavoring to serve Jesus Christ for 50 plus years , been involved in a couple of different ministries over the years as a teacher/elder/ song leader etc. Never actually heard of “ Lordship Salvation “ have heard of free grace though. Personally, I think tag lines in Christian doctrine are just silly. Christ salvation is free, it is given by His grace, and from my perspective thru His word Christ doesn’t try to Lord over anybody. What He does seem to ask and teach thru His word is that one comes to the spiritual revelation that He is indeed Lord of all, King and Creator! When this revelation comes to a believer, he/she will bow every day of their life on this earth. God bless
If salvation is not of grace alone then you have added something that the book of Galatians makes so clear. I think you have misquoted Swindol . Swindol did not teach free grace at the expense of a changed life. Salvation is given freely and the sanctified work of the Holy Spirit will bring change. Swindol would be the first to say that a person who says he is a christian but lives a life contrary to the gospel is most likely not nor has ever been a christ. To pin Swindol as hard core to the left of total free grace with no changed life making no difference, is not being honest about his position. I have listened to him for years and that was not taught when you took the whole of his teaching, you cannot just take snippets of things he has said without the whole context, I suggest you do that. obviously Lawson was hard core on salvation Lordship to the point of no exception but his life obviously did not reflect his doctrine. He had better cling to grace as his only hope of forgiveness and exceptance by God.
Great biblical discussion, Pastor.
Oh no ....I may stop listening to pastor Swindoll now... At least if we do understand Lordship Salvation, then we can trust in the divine discipline from the Lord when we sin and grieve His Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus reigns....and we are being "conformed" into His image ...
"Let he who has no sin, cast the first stone...".
Steve Lawson is a staunch Calvinist which he believes that God decrees plans and causes all things, including his adultery. He himself has said that "those who do such things, we're never saved" by his own admission, he was never saved.
Yeah, no more saved than David.
How sad that in this day as Christians there’re are sides regarding salvation.
Its always been this way, false teaching has alwasys existed.
Steve is saved. Need to pray for repentance. We are sinners and saved by grace.
I used to read Chuck Swindall's books in my late teens, and they were interesting books. they were simply about living a regular "Christianity". Then one day, I went to an alter call, and I couldn't stop crying. My life change from there on. I no longer could listen to Chuck or John McAuthor.
I am from Germany and really regret that obviously, many christians out there now exploit this situation for their own doctrinal beliefs. Steven Lawson's failure - or rather sin - does not change anything on the doctrine and its arguments. That's a typical ad hominem argument and certainly not helpful.
My personal thougt on this matter is: Even I can fall into the worst sin, and I want to pray more that God guard me lest I preach to others and disqualify myself by sin.
Please take Dr. David Anderson's Soteriology class @ Grace School of Theology. In my opinion, pretty fair-minded and comprehensive.
Listening to Chuck Swindoll years ago and having his study Bible in my library, no where does he say as long as you believe, you can live anyway you want. He believes in the Christian desiring to live a life of integrity and holiness. He just isn’t as dogmatic as someone as let’s say John MacArthur on the Lordship issue.
@@irishchocolate3872 nobody claims he says or encourages that but this is the nature of the free grace position.
The failure of Lawson is sad for he, his family and the church he served and those he is involved with. While I may not agree with every perspective he may have I have respected and benefited from the ministry of Charles Swindoll.
Sinners prayer was instituted by evangelist like DL moody. At the end of his sermon the day before the great Chicago fire, he instructed the people to go home and take time to reflect on his sermon, and return the next day ready to profess salvation in Jesus Christ. However many people died in the fire. Moody vowed to never let the people leave a meeting with out first given the opportunity to pray to receive Christ. Thus the sinners prayer became the norm for most evangelicals.
Jay Vernon McGee was against lordship salvation as well the real issue is only God knows your heart. Somewhere along the line both camps need to agree you must be born again.