Doctor Who: Moffat's Dalek Problem | Video Essay
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- We take a dive into the tenure of former Showrunner Steven Moffat and his difficult relationship with the Daleks.
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NEW FULL FAT DOCTOR WHO VIDEO ESSAY! HOW SHOULD DOCTOR WHO END? ua-cam.com/video/BnnOq63Ll5s/v-deo.html
Full Fat Videos you can complain a lot
its Darleks not daleks
With what you said at 9:35, I feel like this can be explained easily. The Doctor tries at first to work against the fact that the Time War actually occurred, and this works until the next clip you showed where he is trying to force himself to not let out the anger within him about the War. He outbursts. He then realizes that the Daleks can manipulate the fact that he will outburst and use it against him, so he goes into a more suppressive state than before which is harder to hold back. The increasing cockiness that he has had is the result of that forced bottling of sadness and rage for what the Daleks caused his people.
If this doesn't make sense, sorry, it did in my head.
For continuity reasons, the next Doctor would probably have to let out a humongous outrage against the Daleks if she is not going to retain the amount cockiness and the toleration of Daleks of the previous Doctor.
What're you talking about? It HAS ended. The Doctor had a sex change, TARDIS kicked her out. The End!
Well so some degree your wrong because there is a good Dalek in the Davies era. The sole survivor Dalek Caan who did the impossible and flew into the time war quote "Had seen what we'd become and I decree No More" insane and went as far to converge the timelines on Donna to bring their downfall. Another point the resurrection and dominance of Dalek can technically be to the success of the paradigm Daleks. Quite similar to the cult of skaro these five had unique purposes that we never found concrete answers to what they did exactly but with the Supreme, Eternal, Scientific, Technology (I think) and Soldier Dalek they became in my eyes what the cult was always envisioned to be and thus created things such as the Dalek parliament crafting new ideas while holding a sense of superiority with the return of the classic new era delak design. Yes they are not as threatning but considering how many episodes they have been in the classic music and sound of the unstoppable laser of death would leave anyone shaking I their boots.
But creds to you for pointing this out it has become more obvious to me now and I see your point and mine good video
"Here's hoping Chibnall" hah, such innocent times.
In fairness, the only thing he’s done right so far is the Daleks tbh...
Isn’t it just
Glider Studios he actually put a really good spin on it and then wipe his arse with his hand and painted the rest of his ideas and episodes in his own shit
I mean I dont personally like how chibnall has handle the daleks the fact one dalek was taken down by some people with swords then the dalek on the inside crawls around and attaches it self to people.... It rubs me the wrong way. Tbh I think any viewing of a chibnall episode is tarnished by the fact I haven't enjoyed the show bar 2 episodes since Capaldi and Moffat left.
Resolution was great though.
There's been an inflation of Daleks. When there's so many of them, and they're defeated without much problem, it makes them seem... incompetent. The one Dalek in the episode Dalek was more terrifying to me than all the Dalek armies that followed.
EH. Daleks suffer from the inverse Ninja problem. The amount of Dalek ability/menace/power available is consistant regardless of the number of Daleks, so one Dalek is a terrifying, world destroying force, and a thousand daleks each have the indiviaul ability of a Marx Brother, since they only have access to 1/1000 of the total dalek menace.
The Doctor will eventually be exterminated.
They just need to stop capturing him, telling him their plans in great detail, and then placing him somewhere that he can easily escape from.
They're planning to shoot him on sight next time
@@kurtbarlow9402 Yeah, but also be sure to survive long enough to Exterminate the Doctor again before they regenerate like Ten kinda did in Journey's End. (It's established that while Ten didn't change his face, it was still a regeneration.)
I think that’s why Resolution worked so well. It went back and took inspiration from Dalek (without feeling like a hollow copy) in that it made one Dalek on the loose feel like the Earth-threatening event that it was. And remember that this wasn’t a Time War Dalek, this was one of the first Dalek to leave Skaro, and even with its relatively early tech, it took 3 armies to defeat it. Then, it took the Doctor sending it into a supernova to kill it. Say what you will about the Chibnall era, but Resolution was the first time since the Davies era a Dalek truly felt threatening.
That should be a story title "Inflation of the Daleks", set in Weimar Germany, the Daleks have a plan to take over earth by means of causing an economic crisis in post WWI Germany, and wind up influencing or rather greatly enabling Hitler's racist views by using him as a human collaborator so that he'll be able to harness the crisis to the Daleks's ends. This is ultimately stopped by The Doctor of course
Ten is the “man who regrets” and Eleven is the “man who forgets.”
Emily H theres also the RZA the GZA and the Ol' dirty BZA
I think originally 9 was intended to be the War Doctor, but Ecclestone unfortunately declined to return.
And twelve is the one who just dosen't care hahah. I think twelve is one of the best doctors, I loved how he was just a grumpy old man who was annoyed most of the time. Reminded me of the first doctor. Eleven was just overly quirky and a bit annoying at times.
Twelve is the man who accepts
@Adolf Schinkler 12 wasn't in Day of the Doctor aside from a two second clip of bushy eyebrows.
My theory is that since "Victory of the Dalek" he has the constant fear of benefiting them by losing it, so he just plays his jokey and calm schtick in order to keep them "under control".
Robo4900 The whole of Series 6 is that exact thing. He knows big things, like Amy being kidnapped or his impending death, and he plays a long and dark game to stop them, but pretends to be happy-go-lucky mad box guy.
a great example of this behaviour can be seen in his Pandorica speech, where he literally had nothing to stop them with but managed to delay them by the power of intimidation and deception.
The best thing about that scene is that he didn't. All his bluster, them running away, it was part of his enemies' plan. They built the perfect trap for the doctor, baited by his arrogance and pride.
I like your theory, and I hope that someday the Daleks are not overused and once again brought back to their terrifying selves.
Nice point. See my comment above on Sept 20, 2018. I elaborated a bit on what you've picked up on as well.
I do very much hope Chibnall does a better job of making the Daleks threatening again. As for the Moffat/Russell comparison, just a few points:
1) The Doctor may see the Daleks as irredeemable, but he is still willing to show them mercy as shown when he is willing to help Dalek Caan in Evolution of the Daleks, and basically any other time in which he tries to help/save Davros.
2) The Daleks in the Moffat era have rebuilt their Empire which the Doctor is already aware of. He's not 'okay' with the death camps, but there isn't much he can really do about them save wage an interstellar war against an Empire that spans entire Galaxies (something he would never do if he was written in-character).
3) Having the Doctor be so enraged with the Daleks that he wants to destroy them all makes some sense in his post-Time War PTSD incarnations (9 and 10) but Moffat tried his best to move AWAY from this because it basically summed up Russel's era, and he wanted to do something totally new. His characterization of 11 can be summed up with one word: denial. He pretends to forget that he is the last Doctor in the regeneration cycle, he pretends to forget how many children were on Gallifrey and he has trouble dealing with situations without joking around - his response to the Daleks is therefore justified.
Moffat did do the Daleks wrong, but that was more to do with his characterization of the Daleks themselves and not the Doctor. The show should focus less on pointless one-shot cameos and more on episodes that deal with the nature of the Daleks, like Into the Dalek and Magician's Apprentice/Witches Familiar did. In light of this, I'd argue that the Moffat era should actually be split in two when referring to his handling of the Daleks. The Matt Smith era on the whole handled them pretty awfully, but the Capaldi era was significantly better, especially when you take into account the fact that by this point in the Doctor's life he knows the Daleks didn't actually destroy Gallifrey (so he's not triggered whenever he sees one).
Overall, Moffat's handling of the Daleks gets a 4/10. You were right in saying he should have done for the Daleks what he did for the Silents and Missy, in that they should be a narrative focus and not simply a race that happens to exist in the Whoniverse.
343 Guilty Spark They have to have cameos. BBC don't have full rights to the Daleks. They have to show them on TV at least once a year to be able to keep using them. I'd prefer cameos to a Dalek story EVERY year like with Davies, where it grew old fast.
Have you seen Chibnall's episodes? all three? of them?
I just hope he is somehow better than Moffat at writing series. Because my hope for the episodes just died. Honestly the episodes can be summarized as this: Doctor arrives and we have one problem, then another problem appears, we get a random timeline for tension, which makes problem number three, then we have a use of the magic wand, I mean sonic screw driver telling us deus ex information with maybe problem number four, then everything is silved with the push of one button, or the pull of a lever. Pretty much. If I get this over four episodes I am going to cry.
ODDnanref The issue you have highlighted here is that of pacing, which has always been an issue with Chibnall's episodes. However, you can pin most of the blame for that on Moffat, who ignored Chibnall's warnings that the Power of Three needed to be a two parter and was notorious for meddling with his writings team's work to insert his own arcs in, as was the case with most episodes of Series 8. This is probably what caused most of the writing team to walk, and hopefully Chibnall won't make the same mistake since he knows what being too much of a mirco-manager as producer can do to the individual episodes.
I am just worried that the issues he had were not Moffat's fault. You have not presented any compelling evidence that this is not a problem inherent on Chibnall's writing itself. Okay, maybe you are right for the cube invasion. Let me bring 42, from series 3, before Moffat, that still has the same issue of problem, then another problem, then another problem, then another problem, with random magic wand use, random count down and then everything is fine with the flick of a switch. Seriously, the ship is going to crash into the sun in 42 min. Fine, but what does that have to do with the guy murdering the other crew members, the random questions they have to answer, then the zombie-like spread of the infection, then the doctor becomes infected. Everything solved by flicking a switch and dumping the fuel, even Martha, about to crash into the sun and die, is saved by the flick of the switch. Sure, the problem is pacing, but I do not think Moffat was the problem here, maybe he did not help, but not all of it was on him. Not to mention that the episode has no themes, focus. Introducing threat after threat, makes it hard to put proper pacing, and he does that on all his other three episodes.
Quoting from what he said: "The Doctor is always at his best when he is having to put out several fires at the time."
Let me move to the double parter: The Hungry Earth and Cold Blood. Also the same proble, little tension, fells meaningless. Arbitrary countdown, problem after problem, after problem. Heavy handed foreshadowing on someone is going to kill the lizard. Then, drill countdown, magic use of the screwdriver. Everyone remains the same. The mother is not even remorseful of starting a war.
Then you have Dinosaurs on a Spaceship. A ship filled with dinosaurs is going to collapse into the Earth. Sounds familiar. The characters do nothing of note, nor do they develop at all. Random dude could have shot the dinosaurs, so that guy was not needed. Nefertiti Could have been any other character that was strong and independent and got kidnapped. Again, no concise themes here and no character development. Oh, and the missile countdown.
Then you have the cube episode, which is the best when it starts and the worst in its ending. Maybe the cubes could have changed my mind if it was a two part. However, considering the other three episodes I have doubts. I have low expectations for this writer and hope he is better at written series instead of episodes.
I have to add, what was the point of the masked people on the cube episode? I seriously doubt that for all of Moffat's OCD on interfering he would add a random bunch of people. Also, there is not explanation as to why their faces where like that.
ODDnanref you need explanation? they're aliens. also, keep in mind that RTD's episodes tended to be the worst in each of his series
Says "Moffat was still a good showrunner" then shows a clip from an episode where Moffat wasn't the showrunner.
Sorry, but I think this is the main problem with him. He's fine at writing highly constrictive one-off stories that don't have broader implications, but the moment he's given control of a series, he screws it all up. It's not just the Daleks that he ruined, he ruined the Weeping Angels too, forgetting everything that made them a great villain in the first place and reducing them to just another generic army of baddies, seemingly incapable of remain consistent with even his own ideas. He's just not a good showrunner, period. His best work was when he was working under someone else and subject to limitations.
Don't forget he did the god awful sherlock too
And he's sexist st that
Poor Weeping Angels. One episode they're teleporting people back in time to feed on their energy, and now they're just breaking necks. It's so so stupid.
He wrote that episode but it was before he was show runner he was only a writer.
He created the weeping angel .He is an amazing writer. producer . You really need to look at his shows to understand them because his writing is not just beginning, middle end. And he tried to wrap up a lot of his story lines when he was leaving the show.
One perhaps small thing to keep in mind is that Matt Smith’ Doctor trying to beat up a Ironside Dalek in front of Churchill was not pure rage, he was trying to manipulate the Daleks into playing their true hand, which he actually succeeded in doing.
Maybe it wasn't the main reason, but it was likely a contributor for it...
A thing that I think is worth mentioning: between Victory and Asylum, the Doctor has lived for two-hundred years in an effort to put off his supposed death at Lake Silencio. While it could be considered lazy that it happened off-screen, the Doctor could very easily have mellowed out towards the Daleks over that time.
I think what holds the Daleks back more than anything is the Terry Nation deal, requiring them to be used every season. Without it we wouldn't have Daleks but still...
RTD just handled it better because he had fresh Dalek ideas. Moffat seemed to have other priorities with his own creations. Even ended up putting Daleks in his first or second episodes of the season to get them over with.
What made the Daleks work in the Russell T. Davies era seasons was that they were established as a genuine threat, being soulless killing machines that didn't stop until they exterminated everything in their path, and even the classic pre-reboot episodes established the Daleks as a threat. Steven Moffat, on the other hand, obviously isn't a fan of the Daleks and just turns them into any other "monster of the day" rather than a legitimate threat. Basically, what Moffat did was basically nerf what is considered in-universe to be the most dangerous race in the entire universe, and that's how they've been described countless times throughout the franchise. Heck, the Daleks were never involved in any major plotlines in Moffat's run, in a sharp contrast to the Davies era episodes in which each Dalek episode tied into each other, ultimately culminating in the massive battle shown in "The Stolen Earth" and "Journey's End". In the Davies era episodes, they were integral to the plot of the series, while in the Moffat era, they're just... there.
If the Daleks were given to a writer like Neil Gaiman, who made the Cybermen intimidating in "Nightmare in Silver", then I feel the Daleks could have been scary again. It's actually been confirmed that Chris Chibnall's first season as showrunner won't likely have the Daleks in it, but that will give the writers plenty of time to come up with their next big appearance, and hopefully, they'll be a genuine threat again.
resolution happened....
Maybe the whole, Silence will fall when the question is asked story arc leading to the Doctor realizing that he has gone too big and that too on his last life might explain a hidden story logic that makes the Doctor's change of behavior towards the Daleks believable?
1) The whole season 5 and season 6 arc was the Doctor facing the consequences of becoming too big of a lone threat for every major civilization in the universe. The fear which was embodied physically in the form of the most advanced prison ever built - The Pandorica.
2) Plus, extrapolating from 10th Doctor's careless and unstable attitude near the end of his regeneration and assuming how 11th learned from the Playing-God of the Timelord Victorious.
Now, we know that the Doctor wanted to go out with a few last happy memories (Given his choice of the childish Matt Smith Doctor), so pressed by his ending regeneration it would make sense that the Doctor would ignore disasters in the interest of minding his own business, to not go too far in saving people.
So we see him in the same attitude towards the Daleks as Russel's Doctors but as the 11th realizes the above mentioned two points, he acts more apathetic towards the Daleks... Leaning in more to save the neighborhood rather than the whole world in the hope to not make a lot of noise, unless necessary.
This also explains why he would revert back to his hatred towards the Daleks with Capaldi's 12th Doctor, as now he has a whole new 12 regenerations cycle and he doesn't have to worry about becoming too big again. A reversion in attitude which I believe got reduced after the "Into the Dalek" episode ending where 12th realized that he had "hatred" inside of him. This last part explains his dislike but less aggressive relationship with the Daleks from the 12th's "Into the Daleks" episode onwards.
I’ve just watched this and hat outro is hilarious having seen s11
Chris chibnall handle the Daleks well, HA!
Really interesting thoughts but I see this change as a good case of changing the show rather than relying on tired reactions being reused each season. You say yourself how each story with the Daleks in series 1 to 5 are VERY similar. Can't keep banging on about the Time War or else it gets dull. These moments are to be savored. As 11 once said 'Times change, and so must I.' Moffat took his own advice there with the Daleks.
Personally, I believe that the way the doctor reacted in Victory of the Daleks was because he couldn’t possibly believe that any Daleks could ever be good. And the reason he was relatively apathetic afterwards is because they were more like the Daleks he was used to.
And it makes no sense to me that the doctor believes that the Daleks are utterly irredeemable because at one time they were good, and can be made to be good. This was established in the very first season, in the very first story ever told about them, and was also demonstrated in “The Evil of the Daleks” with the second doctor.
I have been watching this his program from the beginning, and I am up to season 5. This era of doctor who is going to take me a looong time to get to, but if this is how the doctor (and the Daleks) are going to be portrayed I may not bother with it.
It seems to me that whoever is writing for the newer series needs to do more research on the history of the show.
@@nosilverharbinger I mean Moffat definitely should've, but russ Davies did an amazing job as showrunner so you should definitely watch at least up to his departure (and Moffat's run didn't really get terrible until 12th doctor came in)
The problem with the Steven Moffat Daleks isn't overuse but rather that they weren't threatening in the slightest. The Russell T Davies era established them immediately as a massive threat that couldn't be taken lightly and they constantly commit acts of mass murder. When a Dalek shows up, you know loads of people are going to die. Except in the Steven Moffat era, the Daleks barely kill anyone on screen and are treated like a joke.
"Anyone for Dodgems?"
I put it down to time.
In the show's canon, the first five series happened more or less as they appeared - over the course of about five years. But 200 years passed in the show throughout series 6, and probably some time between series 6 and series 7. In that time, the Doctor has come to terms with the Time War and what happened there, so seeing the Daleks is no longer such a traumatic experience for him.
Victory of the Daleks is a Mark Gatis episode.
I’ll leave you to ponder on that.
I think one of the problems is that the Doctor's fear is gone. In the episode 'Dalek', the Doctor's initial reaction to the dalek was absolute terror. It was only once he realised that the dalek was captured that he let his rage out. But in Moffat's era, he doesn't seem scared of them anymore at all. And if he isn't, how can the audience be?
I think the key to this is the bit in the 50th anniversary special where the War Doctor mocks 10 and 11 as "the man who regrets and the man who forgets." For whatever reason ( and it isn't well explained), 11 represses his PTSD. 12 is a new doctor who is filled with more of the old rage, though still retains traces of hope. It's imperfect, but at least "in the moment" it didn't super bother me, other than the fact that sometimes a single Dalek is a huge threat to an entire group and others the Doctor confidently stares down a fleet of them.
Damn I loved Dalek. Definitely my favourite Dalek episode ever in New Who at least! The way they portrayed the Dalek and how they showed how powerful just one can be. Similarly in Doomsday as I love that scene where the four Daleks hover towards the army of Cybermen and completely obliterate them.
My main problem is that the daleks have become visually bland. We've had episode after episode of hundreds of brown daleks. We've had thousands of brown you daleks. After nearly a decade and a half of brown daleks appearing every series it becomes increasingly visually tedious. In the classic series dalek designs didn't last as long and the daleks themselves didn't appear that much.
You had the silver dalek from seasons 1-4
The gray daleks from 9-21, a brief cameo in season 22 and a full return as one of two factions in season 25
the white daleks from season 22-25
Seasons 1-4 were the only seasons where the daleks appeared as regularly as they do now with a total of 6 stories
Compare that with the first 4 series of the current Who. In series 1-4 there were 5 dalek stories
So a relatively equal number during the 60s dalekmania and during their big return for the new series.however after this four year period of constant daleks the classic series didn't use them for another four seasons. This gave them a larger period of rest so eventually people actually were looking forward to seeing the daleks again rather than the dalek's reappearances being a constant thing.
Compare the daleks of modern who to those of color classic Doctor who. There were 8 dalek stories in that 20 season time. In those last two stories the daleks received a redesign.
The daleks received a redesign after every 4 or 5 stories. Excluding the poorly designed and short lived "paradigm dalek" the same bronze dalek has been used for 11 stories. After 11 stories the bronze design becomes incredibly dull. I can't think of any Doctor who monsters who go without a redesign for 11 stories other than the daleks.
My hope is that Chibnall will either give the daleks a rest or at least give them a color scheme other than bronze.
Yeah they could really do with a new look (One that takes elements of what worked witht the other designs and creates something threatening)
is it just me that thinks it actually kinda works? cuz, the doctor hated and couldn’t stand to see the daleks not acting like daleks so he freaked out, but hated himself for doing that, especially in front of amy, so off screen, he decides that he isn’t going to freak out again and when he sees the daleks with an army and trying to destroy him and take over the world, he knows what to do, he’s fought and beaten these creatures before. and then any later anger is him inadvertently showing some of the suppressed rage and ptsd. just me that thinks that? ok, that’s fine....... i’ll just go hide in the corner
I haven't had a rewatch in so long that I almost forgot that the Silence was a thing until you mentioned them, and then I realized the irony of that
It's important to take into account that New Who allows itself to change, shift and retcon for the sake of running with an idea for a story. While Moffat spends a great deal of time intertwining stories and plot threads to connect and bridge various stories and ideas together, he still allows the events to be disconnected if a plot particularly demands it. But in a canon way, it sort of works. If you take the 10/11 crossover into account, The Moment boils down the two Doctors into singular phrases. (For better or worse) "The man who regrets, and the man who forgets." Now this kind of goes against his line about "never wanting to forget it" in Amy's second episode, but the need for distraction and disconnection from his past is evident in his character as the series progresses, and is shown rather cinematically through the drastic tonal shift the series took after RTD left and Moffat took over.
His reaction to them in Victory of the Daleks is still fairly fresh off his transition from 10th to 11th, and by the time the likes of The Asylum of the Daleks comes along, he's had a long time with his distraction of Amy and Rory that let him fizzle out that deep-rooted hatrid as part of his more forgetful, carefree nature, with only a couple of peripheral appearances in episodes between those two. Plus, he seems so utterly bemused by the idea that these daleks specifically called upon him, Amy and Rory to solve a problem they themselves seemed unwilling to solve themselves, that he can't help but mock them and see just what they have in store.
12 didn't get such a blatant moniker as far as I recall, but the callback to The Fires of Pompeii best indicates who 12 is. He's the man who saves. Sometimes it takes him some coaxing, either from Clara or from his foe, but in the end he chooses to rescue a young Davros, he chooses to make this one seemingly impossible morally ambiguous Dalek, he chooses to save Missy (until he's cut off from her and can't any longer anyway). Three of his biggest, baddest enemies throughout the entire series, He's regained that sense of forgiveness and compassion, even for a race of beings he once despised having seen these glimmers of hope that they can be turned, their minute sense of mercy, their ability to go against their ingrained doctrine of EXTERMINATE.
Also I read somewhere that apparently the series is contractually oblidged to use the Daleks at least once per series, hence why in series with non-Dalek relevant plots they feature as little more than cameos or single episode filler, which is a shame. (EDIT: Sorry for the two conjoined paragraphs, UA-cam is being strange)
I'd say the reason The Doctor becomes a bit more relaxed around the Daleks come Asylum of the Daleks is because it's been 200 years since the Time War by this point, whereas Victory of the Daleks is probably closer to 10 years after.
The Silurians have *always* been sympathetic/tragic villains. The Earth was once theirs and, but for an accident of astronomy, it still would be. This has been heavily emphasised in all their modern appearances. The Cold Blood two-parter was all about whether these two races could ultimately come to a peaceful solution and share the Earth. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was about Silurians falling victim to human cruelty and avarice. The Silurian race aren't monsters, they're people with all the positives and negatives that entails. That doesn't undermine their threat - it just makes them a more interesting one.
To be fair, Dalek prison camps were introduced back in 1979's Destiny of the Daleks (the 4th final Dalek story in the classic series) - this wasn't invented in Asylum of the Daleks
Another way of looking at this is that Russel T Davis set the bar for expectations to be critically acclaimed, really high; With the success of his idea of introducing survivors guilt and dealing with the theme of being "The last of" with both The Doctor and with the Daleks being played out in his Dalek Stories.
Moffat just seems to unable to meet that new expectation. The way he made the Daleks in his Era is in similarity to how they were like in the classic series with them spread across the universe, having a home world and them being dealt with by rebels against their tyranny in different eras of Time and Space.
It seems to be evidently clear that RTD's idea has surpassed the original idea and reason for why the Daleks were originally made in the classic series and the latter seems less praised then how he handled it.
I would argue "Victory" is the best Moffat Dalek story. But that's not saying much.
Even though 2 of Moffat's dalek stories aren't very good and he overused the daleks a bit, I quite like what he did. He got very creative.
He showed us daleks manipulating history, he showed us the Doctor having to let the daleks win, he created the very unique and interesting idea of a dalek asylum, he showed us how when daleks are broken they can become good, he got creative with establishing the setting of Skaro and he showed us how Davros can never be good even if he seems like it.
I grew up with Doctor Who. For a long time, it was the escapism that I cared about the most. It presented a compassionate, intelligent man attempting (for the most part) to find non-violent solutions to threat and danger. Now, I just don't care. The show is a shadow of its former self, reduced to self-referencing and the weight and pull of pop-culture. It is time for it to bow out gracefully.
Personally I think his change in attitude is essentially an evolution to his character.
I think it's shown best in the day of the doctor, when the 3 doctors are "trapped" in the dungeon talking about how many children died on Gallifrey. It's still to raw for the earlier incarnations but not for 11.
But no there's isn't a moment he suddenly changes. It's a far more realistic gradual change. Starts of as fear and hate, then bigoted and hateful for the longest time, then becomes contemptuous after so many victories.
But I completely agree that narritively unsatisfying, and takes away a very interesting character flaw.
I got the impression it wasn't thought about a heap (strangely enough), and the Universe being rebooted at the end of Moffat's first season was just an excuse to reboot things at random and the Daleks were one of those things. So now the Universe just had Daleks around and the Cult of Skaro vanished because they were no longer relevant.
His cybermen were amazing though (mondasian)
I am from the future and I have some bad news about the doctor it's now worst than this worse than ever we need Moffat back...
Moffat disliking the Time War because in his eyes the Doctor is the perfect hero who would never do something so bad (forgetting the other times he killed in the classic era) is reminiscent of when George Lucas went back and rewrote the infamous scene involving Han and Greedo because Han shooting first made him irredeemable. Of course he never bothered to correct the scene where Han shoots at Vader without provocation.
Chibnul's Resolution was such a refreshing Dalek story after Moffat bungled them.
You liked seeing Dalek all over again?
@@caleb7551 It was like Dalek in that it showed how much of an absolute threat a single Dalek can be. Armies of Daleks are just cannon fodder. Still had it's own twist in that we rarely ever get even a glimpse of the kaled mutant outside of the shell that this story gives us.
Honestly, by the time Moffat came around, the Daleks had already been overused during the RTD era to the point where it felt obligatory to make the Daleks show up each year, thereby making them feel less interesting with each subsequent appearance. When they show up that often how are they supposed to feel menacing to the audience? You already know the Doctor is going to defeat them. That's one of the interesting twists of Victory of the Daleks. He totally fails to stop them from escaping because they figured he'd always choose saving the humans from the Braswell bomb over stopping them from escaping and they totally exploited that fact. Other than that, however, exactly how much new ground is there really left to cover with the Doctor vs Daleks dynamic?
Rage against the Daleks sounds like an awesome name for a Doctor Who fan band
The Daleks are great if used sparingly, but then they became fairground dodgem cars that looked like they should be in Thunderbirds. Stopped being threatening, especially when they got names and 'personalities' - nope - they are war machines. Keep'em that way and use'em every other series and they will keep they're attraction.
Good essay on the Daleks, good points. Moffett wasnt bad as showrunner but sometimes he tried too hard with the story archs. There were some good episodes in his run but sometimes it seems he was lost like in series 6-7. But overall i think he did decent.
Im ok with most of the dalek episodes so far, even the less received ones. They are very interesting, fun villians to work with. However, with that being said, they have been way overused to the point that they not as menacing as they were.
I got into NuWho only a few years back. The first half of series 1 was just ok, not bad but didnt realize why the show was so popular until i watched Dalek. From that point on, i was hooked!!
Im just so tired of the Daleks though! Let them and the cybermen rest for 2, 3 series. Bring in villians like the Ice Warriors, show more of their background. Or even the Meddling Monk lol
Not to mention all the self sabotage that went into great plot lines and indeed villains. The Silents should have been a great recurring threat. I spent the entirety of season 7 anticipating a return of the Silents, expecting it to be epic, only for it to revealed (as part of an off the cuff remark to Clara) that they were never really villains at all, it was just one rogue sect that was causing trouble, so there absolutely no danger of them ever coming back.
I feel like seeing said Dalek prison camps or re-establishing robomen from old Who as a thing to explain how the Daleks actually build things. Also get rid of eyestalk-head people and Cybermen with detaching limbs because they are dumb. Cybermen and any kind of cyborg body-horror monster like robomen are creepier when you remember that they were human (so no detaching limbs or eyestalks out of heads).
In the serial 'Power of the Daleks', the Daleks (also pretending to be other than homicidal) would say, "I am your servant." The line, "I am your soldier" is a nice callback.
you are ageing time lines for a character who very often does things off screen that impact timelines. Dr. Who is only mildly linear in any given episode let alone season.
right now in canon there are at least 3 female time lords/time lord equivalents. The lady doctor clone who regenerated and went off on an adventure. Clara and game of thrones girl who have a burger joint tardis. missy/the master, and the new lady doctor. not sure how you count the last two.
all the previous forms of the doctor are running around doing their things before, after, and during each other... and any future doctors are there as well.
the Davos vs Doctor relationship changed dramatically over decades of TV and only a few actual episodes... plus there are tons of books and other expanded universes things that add to the story line that are both canon and non canon.
you take a somewhat simplistic view of a story that by it's intention is nonlinear.
The Daleks are biding their time as a rising threat, not yet ready to go for a full-scale war. The reason Doctor doesn't do anything is simple: He Cannot Win. They offered a way to fight them at the end of s8, with the "Cybermen vs Daleks" idea but ultimately the Doctor denied that.
In the defense of the stories post "Victory", there is quite a bit of a time skip. The Doctor himself lives a couple hundred years in the intervening seasons, and the universe is rebooted a few times. Its fair to assume that the Progenitor Daleks went and brought back a bunch of Time War Daleks (along with Davros) and rebuilt their empire to what it was before the Time War. And there's no real reason to assume the Doctor hasn't tried to do anything about the Death Camps during the MANY years he spent without Rory and Amy between those seasons. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I always thought the Doctor's expression in that scene where he's told about the Prison camps as one of guilt. Like, he knows there's nothing he can do about that. If anything I think he feels responsible for them, as his anger towards the Daleks is the very thing that allowed the Progenitor Daleks to begin rebuilding their empire. This is giving Moffat a lot of credit and reading in between the lines a lot, and you're right that it isn't done very well, but it does make a degree more sense than the way you describe it, even if it doesn't erase the problems.
Around five minutes in I learned that there were Dalek defectors who helped the allied forces defeat the Nazis...
Defectors of Alien Nazis helped Earth's allied nations defeat Hitler and his nazis... That's a lot to wrap my mind around...
i'm going to try and deffend moffat here and say that we saw the doctors rage building up and because of how they weren't used to their full extent the paradigm daleks didn't end up as threatening as they could have been especially how they each had a role to play:drone,scientist,supeme,strategist and eternal, had the paradigm daleks been used to their full extent and showed a different side to the doctors relationship with the daleks then the episode wouldn't have been as bad as you claim, of course you can chose to ignore my opinion as it was the very first dalek episode i had ever watched (i had started with season 5 as i was only just old enough to start watching at that point and i didn't know things like bbc iplayer or netflix existed so i kinda grew up with matt smith as the doctor which is why for me his exit was more upsetting for me)
Let me explain to you where the point was where the Doctor stopped caring about the Daleks: when the Daleks got away. When they got away, he knew there was nothing he could do at this point and would need to deal with them as they came up in his time stream. Why stress about something you can't be bothered to stop anymore. They exist, now you just have to get rid of them as one goes along
I think the real problem of the Daleks is the fact that they're meant to be hyper-OP xeelee-stomping space nazis that can literally destroy the entire multiverse semi-casually but 95% of the time in the actual episodes they kill maybe a dozen people and then the Doctor beats them with some shitty deus ex-machina. The only times we really see even a remote percentage of the power that the lore-Daleks have in the TV show is in Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways and The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and even then they're stopped by deus ex machinas and leave almost 0 impact on anyone or anything. Like, it'd make much more sense if there were episodes where the Doctor fails to actually stop the Daleks and they succeed with their plan without losing anything, or if when he does stop them they still leave a significant impact like the complete genocide of a planet or something.
I think that Asylum Of The Daleks would have fitted in a lot better if it took place after The Magician’s Apprentice/The Witch’s Familiar, not just because of the point that you made about The Doctor’s reaction to the death camps, but also because it provides an explanation of how The Daleks are back and gives the audience the big reveal of Skaro AFTER they’re shown to have rebuilt their empire in the aforementioned episode. I’m also still waiting for an explanation as to why the “impure” gold Daleks are all over the place whereas we haven’t seen a single coloured Dalek since AOTD.
I became confused with Daleks when they were equally as extinct as Time Lords but they just kept appearing in front of The Doctor now there are civilizations worth of them now with no explination who their numbers got that high.
Well if I might, you overlook the fact the New Dalek Paradigm actually was willing to work with others unlike any other Dalek civilization before them. They worked with the Alliance to save the universe, they are even willing to work with the Doctor in the Asylum. They are not irredeemable non negotiators like before, they are actually willing to be like any other alien species.
Also, to quote Davros himself "This line has a defect I could not correct.... Respect, and mercy..." which may also make them worthy of forgiveness in the eyes of the Doctor.
Good point, but I think that's more down to Moffat's sloppy and inconsistent characterisation of the Daleks over a plotted out journey for them
Oh I didn't mean to imply it was intentional out of the show, just a plausible in universe explanation for it. I feel like it would have been a lot more ham handed if it was intentional :p
I really liked the video though, and your other Dr. Who one, keep it up :)
If they had the 11th Doctors DALEKS just white and black with a blue eyestalk light, it would have been 100% better
the real problem with Moffat's Daleks was that they lost their menacing feeling. They went from villains that had impact to onces that just turned into another campy story. Trek has the same problem with the Borg in Voyager... in TNG and First Contact... The Borg were a force to be wreckend with...an overpowered enemy that helped drive the story to make the federation look inferior. Along comes Voyager and they were made into just another flavor of the week villain that had no impact or meaning anymore.
I think events of the Pandorica episodes changed the Doctors view of the Daleks.
I think the doctor has understood how the daleks need him to hate them so they could predict his timeline, so he stops doing that, and the 11th doctor hid his feelings pretty well, so I think it makes sense that the 11th doctor didn’t do what he used to do, and the 12th doctor had to act normal so they wouldn’t know which regeneration he is.
Moffats problem with the Daleks was what RTD had done with them. They were always the finale, the threat that couldn't be destroyed. It was the Doctor and them, mortal enemies.
I believe Moffat tried to evolve that relationship, and expand on the focus of the Whoniverse. Aiming for, and mostly achieving, a more interesting story driven show. It has been hit and miss. But some of the best episodes from those first few years were written by him. And his time produced some great characters. I would take a River Song ep over a Dalek any time!
I think it’s because the Daleks are contractually obligated to appear in each season, so they do, and that’s it.
Moffat and Arse are interchangeable
I think it would be interesting to see some more monsters come up against each other like the Daleks and cybermen
If you’re going to use daleks they should only be used as the greatest threat in the series, they should be finale villains only unless you have a specific and personal story to tell such as dalek
Think about it. It was precisely because of the doctor losing hope for daliks, finding no way to love them at all, actually hating them, that convinced himself not to kill the daleks.
Even with this being true, he already hated them at the point he corrected his mistake. It is why he wanted to know if he was a good person... now.
The major flaw, which has run throughout the series is that the Daleks have the Doctor at their mercy so often and they NEVER shoot him.
As a guest writer he was great. As a showrunner he destroyed the franchise. Poor Capaldi.
Gallifrey was never destroyed. The Doctor only remembered getting the Moment, his hand hovering above the button, and waking up in an Tardis with Gallifrey apparently blown up. Anytime he was with his other selves, he can't remember. It always happened that way. Even the End Of Time two parter has them mention hes run off with the Moment, and happens during the point hes with off with his other selves, just before 10 is returned for the events of the Anniversary Special to the events of End of Time. It wasn't un-destroyed, it had never actually been destroyed to begin with.
Well, Moffat has gone back and forth on this, saying there IS a place in time and space where he DID destroy it, but I agree all the rest fits your take.
I will say I fucking loved his Cybermen run during the Capaldi era. Fucking terrifying and sad.
However, his Smith era Cybermen and his daleks are a joke.
to me, a weird/odd/novel way (but yes,has been mentioned in dr who before), is this. we had parallel earths/universes before right? (yes), so how about either a race of daleks who overran one parallel (complete) universe, so they look for other universes to conquer. this way you could have even a "civil war" or a "united empire of daleks" or something like that. would be difficult to pull off, but would allow a change to the daleks be introduced in a way that holds onto the past and allows evolution/growth to occur that would freshen the series up. any thoughts on this? thanks for a great video too!!! very well done
2:25 incorrect. In the episode referenced on-screen, the Doctor actually decides to give the Dalek a chance to surrender, and he decides he does not want to kill it. This is because the Dalek is the last of the Cult of Skaro and the Doctor says "I've already seen the death of one race today. I'm not going to cause another's."
As it turns out, the Dalek escapes on its own terms before we get to see what would happen next.
I completely understand the point you are trying to make with the Dr's behavior towards the darleks but allow me to point out several key epsiodes scene which i do beleive justifies some of the disparities. 1. scene on Bad wolf bay on parallel earth where he leaves DoctorDonna with Rose and says "Thats me, after the war, full of rage and anger... you helped me, he needs your help" 2. he doesnt start hitting the Darleks only after he has failed to convince Churchill that they are a threat...kindda a big pt you left out. 3. Dr has had so much loss that it shows he is capable of change!
Remember when Moffat was the bad show runner? Those were the days...
So, I'm gonna read into things way too much here with very little evidence besides this being my own justifications for this.
The doctor's attitude towards the Daleks changed because somewhere along the way, he realized- And accepted- that he lost the time war. Gallifrey was gone, and the daleks weren't. Every time he thought he destroyed the last of them, they returned, with greater strength, greater numbers. When the ironsides created the new paradigm, it must have hit him hard, because, obviously, the daleks were rebuilding once again, and this time he was directly involved in it.
After that, he realized two things. He'd never be rid of the daleks, and his hatred only made things worse. So, he simply accepted it- And instead of living in the past as he had been, he began to treat them as he would any other monster.
That's my take on it, anyway.
You could remove the Daleks from Doomsday and Series 3. They obviously need to stay for Parting of the Ways and Journey's End but otherwise? Nah.
Imagine - the Daleks turn up for 3 episodes only, to be established, to end 9 and bring Russell's universe together. Moffat just avoids them altogether and plays with the Master more.
In my view they need a new revival story. With davros and with new daleks that are retro 70s design but they keep the armoured like body but the sleek design. And have a decent story and make them scary.
They also stopped being scary. They just would stand around when they so easily could kill the Doctor or his companions
I always felt like Moffat (sort of) messed up the Cybermen. In the Davies era they were in an alternate universe, then came over to ours that one time. Then in Moffat's era they have a space-faring empire. This isn't explained at all for the new audience.
Moff did a bad job of making monsters and situations scary. I'm hoping really hoping that the Cybermen and Daleks scare the crap out of in the next story they are in
Wonderful video. Just a little pronunciation issue at 7:09 with the "denouement". That word seems likely to come up again if you do more f these videos, so I thought you could use a heads up.
I imagine the lack of reaction is because he's known for a long time about Dalek concentration camps. Like sure they're bad, but when you're as old as the Doctor, it's probably no surprise that the Daleks kill people
I think he reacts so differently because it becomes evident that the daleks are reestablished and havent just "survived" anymore, they're living. they become a norm again
maybe he was joking in front of the daleks to show that the doctor is the same as ever hence the theory on that daleks asylum is set after amy and rory die
Who would be scared of angry crayons
Always thought back to the classic episodes when it was determined that the Daleks were evil and hell bent on destroying anything that wasn't Dalek ... why don't they just shoot? Now, it's just "ho hum, another Dalek story".
Haven’t you considered that maybe the doctor feels like it is useless to hate daleks and lets go of the hate
1. You can technically explain the Doctors change in attitude towards the Daleks because of the events of Demons Run, in particular Rivers speech about the meaning of the name of the Doctor as a warrior rather than an idiot with a box. It is after this event that the Doctor displays a noticeable difference in attitude towards the Daleks, and while I disagree with this change in character, I think it is technically consistent with the events of the show.
2. Regardless of the point I made above, Series 7 and 8 were GARBAGE. The build up of the impossible girl plot line was completely wasted on the series finale, and the only good thing about series 8 was Capaldi first episode and the series finale. For me, you can literally skip all the episodes in series 7 and 8 save the first and last episodes of each series (or half series for 7a and 7b)
Whatever his flaws with the Daleks, Moffat gave us Rusty, which might be one of the most important Dalek characters ever (even if he sadly barely appeared.
I thought 11 was playing it cool when he heard about the death camps because didn't he later explain that Daleks don't do death camps? they just exterminate without delays? That was one of the giveaways that the lady was leading him into a Dalek trap in Asylum of the Daleks right?
That was really good. Lots to think about. Thank you.
I absolutely loved _Victory of the Daleks_ and the Dalek redesign, and was disappointed that they didn't stick with it.
Except if there isn't a death camp, she was a automaton at this point. With the technological abilities of the Daleks, It would make more sense to just strip the atmosphere of a planet, Or use a virus. Still, I agree that the laid-back attitude to the daleks seems incongrueous.
And then the new series has no returning villains...
I always just thought that he was just broken and can't rage at them. Their back and he can't stop them
Like the weeping angels. The first time they were terrifying. The second time they were still pretty fearsome, and then they were overused.
Boar Vessel, 600-500 B.C. , Etruscan Ceramic I feel like after Moffat righting that, every other use of weeping angel he was forced to write. He must know all other uses just didn’t have the same effect.
I felt angels take Manhattan was good use. The show needed a great way to explain Amy and Rory exiting the show. They could have brought the daleks back again and restore their terror by killing Amy and Rory, but an exit like that would be too harsh for such beloved companions. That's where having the angels be responsible for it strengthened their evil power. Plus, the angels don't just kill, they send backwards. This allowed a sort of happy ending, knowing Amy and Rory at least lived their lives, just not with the doctor.
Actually since writing that comment I've rewatched angels take Manhattan and I agree it is much better than I remember it reslly
Blink is overated
When they started to show the angels actually moving, I think they lost their fear factor. The way that we never saw them move in Blink felt more real because we experienced them the same way the characters did. Making them move and making them move slowly at that, despite us being told that they’re incredibly fast, sort of ruined it for me
The main problem with NuWho Daleks is that nothing could top their first reappearance. The episode 'Dalek' is easily one of the best Doctor Who episodes and probably the best Dalek story ever written. You could've just ended the Daleks right there and Doctor Who's quality wouldn't have suffered.
'Dalek' is surely hard to top. The Alien v Aliens debate springs to mind; one Dalek is way more intimidating than an entire army of them, for me anyway.
Yeah, agreed. It is possible to make multiple Daleks threatening but in cases like that you'd need to focus on the rampant destruction Daleks can cause over a wide scale. Show a once-thriving planet that's been reduced to ashes by them or something. Them taking over Earth in about ten minutes during 'Stolen Earth' is a good example ('till it got reduced to the main cast just standing around in a room). Moffat's tendency to just stick a ton of Daleks in an episode without showing the potential dangers this can pose seriously ruins them. When a thousand of them can't accomplish what a single one accomplished in 'Dalek', it's time to reconsider how you approach them.
GARGANTUANMASKEDFISH Best Dalek story ever written? Above Genesis? Evil? Power? Parting of the Ways? Remembrance? It's great but it isn't close to the Daleks at their height.
honestly, i would have even liked it if nine somehow changed his opinion on that specific dalek at took him on as a companion. i know it was really unlikely, but i thought that's where it was going for awhile there when i first saw it.
That isn't true at all. It was an adaptation of Robert Shearman's 'Jubilee' and the episode was written by Shearman as well.
Personally, the last good storyline for the Daleks was in the Tennant era, in 'Stolen Earth'. They're introduced as a genuine threat to the human race, with Captain Jack Harkness even saying 'I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do'. You start to realise just how scary they are and how the human race can't defeat them on their own.
i agree thats the last time they felt truly formidable
I have to agree with this. That, for me, was the last time they were terrifying.
Every time I see 11 screaming, "YOU ARE MY ENEMY!", I can't help but think, "YOU! ARE! A! TOY! You're not a real Dalek! You're an action figure! You are the Doctor's plaything!"
YOU ARE A SAD, STRANGE LITTLE MAN. *EXTERMINATE!*
Lmfao
Just like to point out.... Moffat didn't write Victory Of The Daleks. Yeh, he was the show runner, but didn't have the most say in that episode