Some points that I wanted to address that I only lightly touched on so I wanted to highlight them: Some are saying that 2024 Twinned Spell doesn't let the Sorcerer do anything "unique" or that any other caster can't do, namely "upcast". This, is just untrue. Yes, any caster can upcast, however, Sorcerers, by virtue of Twinned Spell, are able to cast spells at an effective level *higher* than they have the spell slots to support. This is something that is exclusive to the Sorcerer class. A Wizard can not cast Banishment at 5th level until they reach at least level 9. I should also emphasize, that Twinned Spell is *not* upcasting the spell, it is instead providing that effect. It is a nuanced but important difference since you are expending a non spell slot resource to accomplish this. It's also important to mention that this is fundamentally how any of the 2014 Twinned Spells worked when the chosen spell had an "upcast" option except now it's a whole lot cheaper. By the same token, I've seen some saying that the Wizard is essentially "just 2 levels behind the Sorcerer". Firstly, 2 levels is quite a bit. But secondly, that only assumes that the Sorcerer is using something like Banishment once, and not twice, which they absolutely could do, which would functionally give them 2 5th level spell slots, putting them even more "levels behind". This also doesn't factor in the that they can then continue to do this with lower level spells and with things like Sorcerous Restoration granting even more Sorcery Points and the fact that they can convert Spell Slots into Sorcery Points if they really wanted to. In no way am I saying that this version is "perfect"… I’m not even saying that it’s “better”. I think it's just important to remember that the intended use case for Twinned Spell has just changed and that that's ok too. You don't need to like it, no one is forcing you to. And to anyone upset about the name: 7:35.
Quote "Yes, any caster can upcast, however, Sorcerers, by virtue of Twinned Spell, are able to cast spells at an effective level higher than they have the spell slots to support." Forgive me if this sounds too harsh but woopti doo da. In the end you are spending a vital slot on something you will get for free by waiting a few levels and that can only be used with a tiny number of spells most of which also won't be taken. Dude for what it may be worth I really enjoy your videos. I'm rooting for you to get that 10k subscribers. That being said I just utterly disagree with saying that twinned is still twinned anymore. They guys saying it should be renamed upcast are completely right. Its should be renamed since calling it twinned is just inaccurate and causes confusion or better yet just removed as its now completely eclipsed by the other others and has gone from a tried and true staple to an always left behind option.
Mechanically I totally agree that it does what it says and is a much more elegant way of implementing the same effect. However I believe that it feels bad because it is no longer unique. Twinned spell used to be the only way to get this effect on certain spells and only sorcerers had access to it. But even as a sorcerer it was the only way for certain spells. That made Twinned Spell special. Now it isn't special at all. It's just a spell slot discount that you pay for with sorcery points. It no longer feels like doing something really unique. It feels like paying for your groceries with your gas money. I think perhaps some spells should have specifically offered the "up cast" option only if twinned. It would be easy to put the rider in the spell that specifically called out twinning rather than allowing it to be up cast in general. Having said that I actually like that there are more up cast options now. I think more spells should have up cast or even down cast options. I'd even like to see spells give you a choice of effect X or effect Y if you up cast by one level or both if you up cast by two. In fact maybe effect Y would only be available to Sorcerer's, but could be paid for with twinned spell.
@@thechangingofwaysI agree with this sentiment. It's not a matter of perspective, the video cherry picks the examples. Here's a really straightforward example: the old twinned spell allowed for two spells requiring concentration to be cast at the same time in a manner that no other spell caster could replicate under any circumstances. The new one can't.
lol in what way? Literally the example I “cherry picked” is a concentration spell. 2014 Twinned Spell: 4th level slot for Banishment and 4 SP to target 2 creatures. 2024 Twinned Spell: 4th level slot for Banishment and 1 SP to target 2 creatures.
While I do think the original UA version of twin spell was a bad representation of "twin spell," but I do like what it did as another option for meta magic. It could've even been called something like "Echo spell"
5:42, it fundamentally, conceptually, practically, literally, etc…, pick your favorite word. It isn’t the same. It targets different spells and encourages different tactics in combat. If they didn’t like it, they should’ve dropped twin and called it something different. I believe the only reason why it’s even called twined is to loop in that other rule where if you have two things named the same, you’re suppose to take the new version.
Being able to do really cool dynamic stuff with metamagic was the compensation sorcerers got for having fewer slots, a smaller selection and fixed spells. Twinning was one of the few metamagics that actually achieved that goal. If they were going to hard nerf one of the sorcerer's best tools they should have at least softened the blow with significantly more compatible spells
What do you mean, fewer slots? Arcane Recovery and using sorcery points for slots are fairly parallel. In TCE, Clerics only gained the ability to regain ONE spell slot using a channel divinity, once per day. Where previously they had none.
@@AnaseSkyrider using sorcery points to recover slots prevents you from using your sorcerer mechanics. Arcane Recovery does not cost you anything but time. At 5th level recovering a 3rd level slot would cost all of your sorcery points. I can't recall off the top of my head most of the 2024 class changes, but in Tasha's, Harness Divine Power uses progressed with your channel divinity, so you have 2 uses of it per long rest at level 6 and a 3rd at 18. But I was basing my comparison more towards wizards since it seems like the most direct comparison. The 2's spell lists are most similar by a significant margin, they normally have no armor proficiency and a d6 for hit die.
I read all the comments and I don't think the name is the problem, I think the *wording* of the feature is what's making people feel so distinctly less-empowered. 7:08 The 2014 version presents this as a spell which initially can only target 1 creature, and lets you spend points to change that. Now you get to target a second creature. It feels like you're circumventing the natural laws with this very special ability. That is to say it feels well, magical. The fact that you spend sorcerery points equal to the spell's level is presented as pretty incidental, the highlighted benefit here is the second creature you can target. To underscore this, the creature reiterates that the spell has to be *incapable* of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. It's really emphasizing that you're taking a spell which usually can't multi-target, and using your power to break that rule. Compare this to the 2024 description. It says that the spell you're casting is already capable of targeting an additional creature (when cast with a higher level spell slot), and presents the main benefit of this feature as being able to spend Sorcerery Points (note; it's even capitalized this time) to increase the spell’s level. Which feels like "wait isn't that just upcasting?" even though it's actually extremely similar to the effect of the 2014 version. The difference? ✨Presentation!✨ I think most of the reaction you're seeing is the result of a subconscious interpretation of these different descriptions leading to feeling empowered beyond the normal rules of the game (2014), or feeling the rules are restricting the uniqueness, and consequently the entire fantasy, of the class (2024). I think that's affecting how people feel about this far more than the actual mechanical differences like the selection of spells you can use it with, or the role of cantrips within this feature. I hope this helps!💜 This was a great lesson for me (as someone making my own ttrpg) of how important it is to carefully describe your mechanics in a way that evokes the intended emotion in the reader😅
I think your analysis is spot on. Even if I dislike the change as a whole due to fewer spell options, my biggest gripe is the new flavor (or lack there of). The new wording/rules for the spell lack any feeling of twinning a spell (even if the effect is the same).
That was my impression as well, I feel like they could have lessened the dissonance if they worded it something along the lines of "[...] you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to target an additional creature as if upcasting", it is still limited to spells the designers intent to multitarget but moving the targeting increase into the metamagic description itself makes it feel more than just an upcast
But quicken became more enticing because of this. if they did their math right ( not including conjure minor elementals) we should see wayyy more balanced combat across the board when it comes to the revised monsters. Twinning might “not have been that powerful” in 2014 but it may be too powerful for it to be its old version to be in the 2024 sorcerer compared to the new baddies survivability
@@floofzykitty5072ummm... I would not allow that at my table. Magic missile doesn't say you add a target for upcasting. It says you add a missile.... Which may or may not target someone else. That is not the same.
One small wish I had with the feature; if it would label which spells could be twinned, at least for the sorcerer spell list. Similar to how concentration spells are marked with a "C" or rituals are marked with an "R"; I wish that twin-able spells would be marked with a "T" Love the channel man, keep up the good work!
One of the sillier changes to 5e in my opinion. Twinned Spell was being used to great effect for *teamwork*: revivify, haste, shield of faith, levitate etc. Yeah it might have needed a little tuning, maybe bump the SP cost by 1 point to address the balance somewhat, but twinned spell wasn't "breaking" anything.
At its core, it is absolutely doing the same thing and there is nothing disingenuous about it. The use case for the ability has changed as has the spells that work with it but the core functionality of using it to target an additional creature is the same.
@@InsightCheck just because it has the same effect in a very specific use doesn't mean it is doing the same. Especially when the new version has about 1/8 the usable spells. Now I'm not saying it's a bad change, just that is is not the same. I agree with another commenter that they kept the name because of their use the new stuff loop. I think a better name would be something like 'multi targeting', especially when you consider that the new version arguably works for things like Magic Missile. Base it can target 3, upcast can target 4.
@@martinbowyer7906 I agree the change is alright elegant even, just it's not really twinning a spell not as fun. I think wotc could have change around a few meta magic options while keeping the same names and adding some new ones so as to prevent automatic import from prior books. Basically breaking up twinned spell into multiple metamagic options while still calling one of them twinned spell.
Twinned Spell is great because it always edges into the next Spell Level while others are simple not strong enough, granted it can upcast to gain an additional target. Example: While everyone is casting Hold Person at 2nd level as a 3rd level caster, Sorcerer's upcast (Twinned) for 3rd level at level 3.
The scope of the new twinned spell is so limited and the means it goes about it is so different, it makes it feel like it isn’t the same meta magic as before even though it has the same effect. Furthermore, the limited spell options for this twinned spell make it feel worse than the other meta magic options because all other options have much larger pools of spells they can affect. If they dropped the middle of the description this would still be a really good meta magic that lets you upcasts spells at a discount. Call it enhanced spell. The play test one could be called echoed spell. And a buffed but extremely expensive version of 2014 twinned spell can be called twinned spell. I mostly agree with your video, I just don’t think you put an appropriate amount of weight towards how the changes effect the feel of the metamagic
The new twin spell could work. The problem is, that there are now very niche uses and not enough spells. Few movement and stealth spells, like fly, spider climb, invisibility (jump lol), some encounter ending spells like banishment, hold person, Blindness. Only one buff spell (freedom of movement) and only one damage spell (chain lighting). I understand the need to nerf twin spell and let other option shine. But as a dm I never found double haste to be OP, or even double healing spells. My problem is with save or suck spells, and that was not addressed. The best metamagic was not twin spell, it was heighten spell. And now it's even stronger.
I understand the thought process of trying to make Twinned Spell a less required option, but I think the bigger problem was the strong restrictions on the amount of Metamagic options a sorcerer could take. I think the better design choice (and the one I use at my table) is to have all Metamagic options available to a Sorcerer at 3rd level, and following a long rest, they prepare a number of them equal to their Charisma modifier. This way, even if every single Sorcerer prepares Twinned Spell, they don’t feel restricted to try other ones, and learn how they can be utilized in different situations.
Yeah, but why even have that restriction? Why not just allow sorcerers to use every single meta magic without restriction? It's like the fact that the new weapon mastery restricts you from having all of them at once - but you just change them after a rest anyway, so it's functionally having all of them with an extra step.
@HorizonOfHope you have a good point Having more metamagic options at your fingertips doesn't necessarily mean that can all be used at the same time. If anything, it gives sorcerers more flexibility overall. If nothing else, giving more options earlier wouldn't have any significant impact on the games I run
My favorite combo was twin spell with vortex warp. A shame I can't do that anymore. One thing you didnt mention that I think is a buff however, is that you can use Twinned Spell on something you are already upcasting. The level 3 spell Fly targets additional creatures when upcast. So casting it at level 3 with twinned spell is the same as upcasting using a level 4 spell slot and targets two creatures. If i cast Fly as a level 4 spell but also twin spell it, I can now target 3 creatures as if I used a level 5 spell slot. And it's still just one sorcery point.
It’s a point I lightly touched on when mentioning Banishment and being able to effectively get a 5th level slot for free. But yeah, this is a great point to highlight!
3:20 The problem with the ubiquity is twinned spell is that it's only ubiquitous, because most of the other metamagic options are just hot ass. Extended, Distant, Trasmuted, Subtle and Careful are all either useless(extended and distant) or very situational(Trasnmuted, Careful, Subtle) Twinned, Quickened and Heightened are the only metamagics really worth picking. This is further compounded by how little MM options you gain Tl;dr the sorcerer class is badly designed
The new twinned spell is a major flavor fail. I have played a sorcerer for a couple short campaigns, but it has become tied for my favorite class (rouge if you’re wondering). I have always considered subtle spell the must take metamagic option, but that’s besides the point. When I take twinned spell, the spells I most often twinned were Suggestion and Hold Person. Under the new rules, the former is no longer possible and for the latter is far more powerful but lacks the proper flavor. I believe this flavor fail stems from keeping the name “twinned” spell. It is no longer “twinning” a spell. It is upcasting a spell for an alternative cost in order to target an additional creature. That is not “twinning” even if the results are usually the same. If I understand the new rules correctly this is now how twinned spell can work: Upcast hold person THEN twinned spell to target THREE or MORE creatures depending on the lvl it was cast. The new twinned spell appears to replace the restriction of spells cast with a single target with spells that can be upcast to have multiple targets. This allows you to have the initial spell already target multiple creatures. So now you are no longer twinning (doubling) the spell, but are instead just adding one. This is a big enough change to warrant a corresponding name change (they changed the name of “ki points” and those didn’t change mechanically at all). I would be much happier if they had changed the name to something like “Prolific Spell” because it better fits the new flavor of ADDING to the number of creatures targeted rather than MULTIPLYING.
@@g00se99 You're missing my point. If they left it out of the 2024 PHB then the 2014 version would still be allowed as it wasn't replaced. But by not changing the name now it has been replaced and therefore the old version is now unavailable.
I think what people mean when they say the new 'Twinned Spell' is less 'unique' isnt that the 2024 version doesn't stand out as a unique ability, but that the ability itself doesn't really do anything outstanding with spells anymore. For example: in 2014 you could Twinned Spell Dissonant Whispers, a single target spell that has no capability of targeting multiple people, even when upcast. Spending a sorcery point there would fundamentally change how that spell works, which gave Twinned Spell a particular appeal that you could only find in the hands of Sorcerers. Now it simply upcasts spells but only spells that add targets when upcasts, something that every other spellcaster can do, except sorcerers can do it in exchange for a sorcery point instead. You aren't 'bending the rules of magic' anymore, not in the same way anyway. I'm not saying 2014 is better than 2024 or vice versa, but the changes made do make a big difference in how it FEELS to use Twinned Spell now. At risk of sounding a bit cliche... Twinned Spell lost a bit of its magic.
Twinned spell was included in the 2014 PHB. The comment about how the spells were not intended to be used this way is half true at best. It was one of the original features that was released with the original spells. The designers knew what they were doing when they made twinned spell. I understand why people play wizards...they get the most and best spells in the game. Yay for them. They are required to follow the spellcasting rules and I find that incredibly boring. I play sorcerers simply because I get to bend or even break the rules of spell casting. I never once felt like I had to take twinned spell, I felt like i got to. Having more eligible options weighed againsy the cost is what made it fun. And i have never heard of a situation where twinned spell ever broke the game. Regardless, this isn't a sidegrade. It is a straight nerf. Being able to upcast for a point? Sure, great. But the lack of spell options wrecks the creativity for this metamagic, and takes away a huge part of what makes sorcerers so special. I plan on making both options available in my games. Will it break the game? Maybe...but if DND wasnt already broken then they wouldn't need to rebuild it from the ground up.
Being able to cast 3rd level spells at 4th level for a single SP is insanely good. You only get one of your high level spell slots, so being able to cast multiple spells at 6th-9th level is a big power boost.
@@Shakkataka It's still doing the same thing, In fact it's no longer locked to the lowest level for spells like Banishment and Haste, Which makes those better targets than they wer before.
@@Shakkataka oh yeah, my bad, I thought they changed Haste too, But it's one of the few that should've been upcastable that still isn't. However point still stands, Despite no longer being a ubiquitous damage boost It is less restrictive in its use for the spells it was designed to work with.
@BramLastname it wasn't restrictive before. Who was saying, " Wish I could twin this already upcasted spell. Oh well, I guess I'll just upcast it more." Also, it's more restricted now because you straight-up can't use it on spells you could have before.
I appreciate your video as always. I disagree. 1) I believe the designers and others have made the mistake of assuming because it was used, that it was overpowered. By that logic battlemaster is the most overpowered class. People play sorc and love to find interesting ways to cast the same old spells, twin fed into that better than the others... 2) Because it had unplanned interactions. It gave high highs in the game when everyone else was playing at a 5, sorc could play at 9 for a couple rounds. Big risk, big rewards, great stories. Now? 3) its just upcast spell on an anemic highly curated list. There are no interesting secrets. There are no neat interactions. Its sorc at 5.5. Yay. Wee. Oh, wow. Really have a lot to choose from here. 4) And the cost of this "lol balance "? A more boring game with a class thats more watered down. Twin spell should have been a baseline feature. It should make people excited to try it on thier whole spell list. It WAS fun and engaging, now it's a damp washrag, useful but infinitely forgettable.
I think there’s a chance that they might be able to. It’s unclear at the moment. As it currently stands, RAW, I would say “no” but I can absolutely see a DM reasonably say they do work. I would expect a clarification on this at some point!
Good video with reasoned explanation and a positive outlook. I appreciate that. It would be great to do a deep dive into metamagic now after the rules update in order to highlight some of the creative changes and things now made more viable.
A 10th level sorcerer can easilly cast 5 twinned hold monsters Cast twinned hold monster twice with their 5th lvl slots and 2 sorcery points Use the remaining 8 to create a 5th slot to twinspell it again. Convert your 2 4th lvl slots for another twinspelled hold monster Convert 2 3's and a 2 for another twinned hold monster And with your other spells slots/short resting you can also muster up the sorcery points to make all those saves be at disadvantage thanks to heightened spell and sorcery incarnate. Is it a good thing to throw all of your resources at all the time? Probably not but the option being there is kinda nuts
lol honestly your point is well taken. Is it “good”? Probably not. But it is possible and allows for a lot of creativity with the feature. Sure, maybe exactly what you stated here isn’t great, but there’s probably some version of this that is incredible.
@@mezcla191 I wil thank you Going to enjoy seeing the insane damage numbers my martial friends are going to bust out with the auto crits i will give them. Not to mention how fun it will be for me to chuck carefull fireballs and vitrolic spheres which the paralysed monsters will autofail while i don't need to worry about hurting said martial friends
@@KiallVunMyeret if that's what's fun for you then go ahead, I'm not stopping you. Matter of fact it seems that's what Wizards is trying to do with the change.
Does base twinning simply allow you to essentially increase the number of targets for upcastable spells? Meaning if I cast Charm Person at 2nd level and twin it, can I target 3 creatures instead of 2? It reads that way to me, but I wanted others interpretations.
The 2024 version of Twinned Spell is nowhere near identical to the 2014 version of Twinned Spell, for two major reasons: * The 2024 effect (essentially "upcasting" a spell) is more comparable to the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel or the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Spell Bombardment, and would be more grammatically accurate if called Heighten Spell (this does have its own effect - the giving of Disadvantage on a target's saving throw against the spell - but that doesn't change the linguistic element). * The 2024 version cannot be used on cantrips, which are almost all single-target. The 2014 version can be used on cantrips, giving it a lot more flexibility. You are utterly wrong in saying that it is still "Twinning" with the 2024 version. With the 2014 version, any spell that wouldn't be able to target multiple targets would suddenly be able to target an extra target (essentially casting it a 2nd time for cheap without needing to wait for another turn or use an extra action/bonus action/reaction; keep in mind that the 2014 PHB does not say that it requires an attack roll), such as with Chromatic Orb, Fire Bolt, Shocking Grasp, Guiding Bolt, Witch Bolt, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Power Word Heal, Holy Weapon, Friends, Compelled Duel, Geas, Dominate Person, etc. The new version can't do any of that - instead it just upcasts the spell (which may or may not include allowing it to be twinned - as in being able to select more than one target).
I think this version is great, and it works with old spells not reprinted if they’re allowed by the DM, like Mind Whip. Twinning mind whip, hold person would be go-to options from early levels all the way through level 20. And then banishment and hold monster up at higher levels. I love it. I do agree with an earlier comment about losing out on twinning cantrips being a shame.
It doesn’t work for twinning a cantrip. Can’t cast two fire bolts. That was handy. I do get the changes though. Very good arguments for the change in this video.
I don't think it's bad, though I do think it's different enough that it really isn't the same thing. For me the key feature of the 2014 Twinned Spell was that it enabled you to do something that the spell otherwise could not do, which is not the case for the 2024 version. Instead of enabling a spell that cannot affect multiple targets to do so, it only works on spells that can affect multiple targets. So, for me, while it can have a similar effect it doesn't do the same thing--turning a single-target-ONLY spell into a dual target spell.
The funny thing about the criticism I've heard is that it only works on certain spells now. Most of the metamagics have restrictions on what spells they work on. Extend only works on spells w/ durations longer than 1 min. Empower only works on damaging spells, Heighten only works on saving throw spells, so on and so forth. And it still twins spells. It takes certain spells and allows you to affect two people with the one casting at the cost of a sorcery point. Revising rules is difficult. If you change something to make an overpowered option weaker to put in more in line with other options, you are going to upset those players who enjoyed those options. People just like to complain. I was a 3.0 sorcerer player who loved using haste to double cast spells and make me the most powerful character at the table. When they revised 3.0 to 3.5, they changed it to not allowing casting a second spell with your haste action, I was upset. By as time progressed, I saw how by nerfing that option, it opened up more options for teamwork and more creativity in my spellcasting. This is just the modern version of that.
You are contradicting one of the specific design goals named by JC for the phb 2024 He said the goal is to have features be less pidgeonholed and less situational, and not game breaking in those situations and useless elsewhere…. And there we go making twin op in one situation and pointless everywhere else
I appreciate your analysis but not calling it a nerf is hugely disingenuous. The fact that it only works on 17 spells now (less than 2 per spell level) means that it is almost completely useless. Most metamagic applied to ANY spell you wanted to cast, narrowing Twin Spell to only a handful means that it will never be taken. Why would you invest a metamagic selection in something that may only affect 1 or 2 of your spells? Sorcerers don't get many spells as it is and if you look at the list of twinable spells there are only a couple that you would ever take. As you mentioned most of the other metamagic selections were buffed so the nerf was really unnecessary. Optimization aside, the flavor of being able to "break the rules" and do something others casts couldn't was part of the glory of the spell - that's gone now. Any class can get multiple targets with these spells, it just costs them a different resource to do it. RIP Twin Spell.
You’re more than entitled to that opinion and make no mistake, I understand where you are coming from. I just happen to disagree and that’s ok. I also don’t believe anything I said was disingenuous. Twinned Spell might not be the best choice every time now… but that’s ok. There shouldn’t always be a best choice every time. If there is, that’s just bad design. The route they opted for allows Twinned Spell to accomplish the same function while also limiting its applicability, but, in exchange received a massive discount on it. There are still plenty of very valid uses. If anything, I would say that you calling it “useless” is disingenuous lol. The use case for the ability is very different now, that is 100% true, but that doesn’t make it useless. To each their own.
Cost to power it's a buff, Actual power it's a nerf. The problem I have is that it isn't Twinspell anymore. I think Twinspell needed a nerf, I would have not let it work on concentration spells anymore, personally.
I consider versatility and reliable applicability part of a feature's power, so I can agree it's a nerf. If someone doesn't see it that way, though, that's a valid perspective; you can't, with certainty, accurately say they're just pretending. I wish they made many more spells able to target more creatures with higher-level slots, though: Mage Armor, Crown of Madness, Enlarge Reduce, Levitate, Suggestion, Protection from Energy, etc. Better yet, change the option to upcast any spell that has an upcast option and rename it. But, in the cases where it does apply, it DOES sound like a pretty good option. I'd actually consider taking any of the spells displayed *because* they work with Twinned Spell. The new Jump, Fly, Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person...all quite good in my eyes!
8:39 some spells are straight up missing, like I can’t find them but if I click the link when they’re in a list it takes me to the description. Grasping Vine is one of them, not in the Spells G section, but if I click it in the Druid’s spell list in their class chapter I can read the spell’s description
I never used old twin spell if the spell could naturally be upcast so the metamagic has lost all appeal and I'll never take it again. I take meta magic to do something unique to sorcerer. Saying it's not a nerf is wild to me.
I mean, you don’t have to like it but again, as I said in the video, it doesn’t have to be a “nerf” either. It’s better in some situations. Worse in others.
@@InsightCheck Being better in X cases and worse in Y cases doesn't make something equal. It is important to know how much better they are respectively in those cases, and how much each case occurs. For Twinned Spell, the slight cost reduction in the few cases the 2024 version comes up is not even wildly close to the benefit of bypassing Concentration on the many cases that was useful in the 2014 version.
This is largely an apples and oranges comparison though. Sorcerers can use TS significantly more times now than they could before especially when you factor in Sorcerous Restoration. There are also still tons of Concentration spells this works with like Banishment, Fly, Hold Monster/Person, Invisibility. And again, you get to use these more often. Yes, the use case has changed, but that doesn’t need to make it necessarily worse.
@InsightCheck Better for 15 spells and removed from 39 spells. Please explain how that's not a nerf. Being able to use it more frequently but with a massively reduced selection of spells doesn't really give me more uses of twinned spell. It only works when I cast the two or three spells I take that can be twinned and if I don't need to cast the specific spell I can twin then it's a wasted metamagic.
@sairadinnmichaelis ok. For clarity, I’m not here to argue, I’m just here to present what I believe to be a misunderstood or overlooked element. You don’t need to agree or even like the new version, that’s perfectly fine with me.
I feel like the playtest version and the 2024 version could have been their own metamagics. And yeah its functionally the same in 2024 but the shear amount of less options is sad. If there were more, it would be fine. I do think there needed to be a penalty to offset how strong the 2014 Twin spell could be. Maybe if you use a concentration spell you get a penalty to concentration checks? Not disadvantage since passive concentration can be a thing. Maybe a penalty equal to the spells level? Since your focusing on two instances of a concentration spell. So sure, you can Twin haste but thats a -3 penalty to concentration. Maybe increase the sorcery point cost for higher level spells? Sure you can Twin Disintegrate but youll burn through most of your sorcery points.
One thing is that I wish you could still twin cantrips. It wouldn’t be as gamebreaking as a twinned leveled spell, and it would have the same point cost as the old version
I wonder if part of the issue is they've taken away some of the uniqueness in the sense that sorcerors being able to twin non-upcastable/more target spells allowed them to do things other casters couldn't. Twin haste, twin Phantasmal Force for example. It was unique. The new version is nerfed and buffed and perhaps more balance. Take the Banishment example - it now only costs you 1 sorc point to hit two targets vs 4 before, and you can do it at lvl 7 rather than 9 when you have lvl 5 spells. But another caster at lvl9 can do the same thing just using the higher level slot. Is the sorcerer getting the better deal? Yeah, probably - especially considering 2 levels of advantage time wise being able to do that thing. For spells it can be used on - particularly higher level spells like Banish - it's a new efficiency gain resource wise. But it's less useable across the range of spells. Now looking at a lot of the other metamagics most are situational. Heighten (excellent but save based spells), seeking (attacks), extended (buffed now to provide conc protection but still only duration or conc spells), careful spell (AOE spells with friendly fire), quicken spell (anything, but situational by application), subtle spell (anything but situational by application). Most metamagics are situational and now Twin is one of them. Before the only requirement was having two targets and the spell being single target only, but the cost was it was only efficient at lower level spells (but people still used it anyway as the opportunity cost of using it on those higher level spells was strong). Now the situationalness is far more baked in, but it offers better value at the cost of sacrificing the uniqueness of the effect. Me personally? The new Heighten Spell is massively improved and the choice of metamagics is far more balanced and we get more of them by 10. I'll take the trade, but I do see where other people have issues. Looking at the package rather than at the single feature helps I think.
You make some good points, the but are too unclear about the difference on flavour or power especially in your pinned comment Flavour: what many dislike is that sorceres felt unique and that’s gone. No one argues 2levels higher isn’t good, but most spells you cast aren’t your highest spell slot, so from the outside it’s not unique, in the vast majority of cases the wizard could have done it too if they wanted to, and for the 1 spell casting they can’t “yet(!)” Power: in pushes sorc into a small set of spells that we will see over and over and over in every situation pairing heighten with innate and twin and then banish banish banish banish hold hold hold hold hold Either the dm cranks up the power of encounters to an insane level or doesn’t present creatures where this works. The sorc will be broken either on the upper or lower end. It’s poor design both in flavour and balance. Restricting its use cases while making it cost a quarter is crazy. And nothing said you can’t cast banishment at 6th level and add a fourth creature making the name “twin” dumb^^ The lack of character uniqueness is what bothers me most here to be honest :(
One question I have about the new twinned spell is how many spells were updated to account for the new version? This is something Crawford mentioned they would do when going over the new versions of the classes
I don’t disagree with you. It does double the effect of a spell. The issue from what I see is mostly the changes to spells. I see a pattern (intentional or not) of taking the things that players found, and liked to do, away from them. That doesn’t really feel like an improvement to the game. There are/were so many fun combos to try and play with in 5e, that anyone was unlikely to be able to play half of them. I know JC and his crew love the game, and are trying to make more and better options for the game. However, I can’t shake the feeling that we’re all just being pushed into his vision of what dnd should look like. I can not wrap my head around the backgrounds, and how limiting they are in choice. Making the game more accessible to new players is fine, but they’ve really hamstrung experienced players in some areas by doing so. My $0.02 worth.
I love the new version of careful spell. As a GM with a general “no non-consensual pvp” rule, the old version of that meta magic was still not usable unless your ally agreed to get fireballed (for half damage). This new version of the meta magic is a huge help for keeping things friendly and civil at the table.
I would have been way happier if we had the old and new versions in tandem, but making a clear definition of what could and could not be cast. Twinned spell but with the implication that it can't be used on any spell that needs concentration ALONGSIDE this option, dubbed something like "expanded spell" or something, maybe. 5e24's designers should have kept with the theme of giving more options.
I dont hate it, but what I dislike is that the reason I pick sorcerer over wizard is that sorcerers can highly optimize their damage with twinned spell and quickened spell.
The new version sucks. The sorcerer has always been basically a wizard with a worse spell list. Metamagic is meant to be the way that it gets to be *different.* The sorcerer can do what no other class can in this one specific way. Now it’s just doing the same old thing, really. Extended spell is basically just a discount on casting a spell again, as is twin spell. Empowered spell and heightened spell are things that other classes can do: roll dice. Sure, it improves your odds, but anyone can already just roll dice. So what if you roll slightly higher? Heightened spell is basically just a magic item with a +3 bonus for all intents and purposes. Only subtle spell is truly unique to sorcerers. No other class can reliably cast without components. That’s what the new twin spell is missing: it robs the sorcerer of one of their truly unique features.
That's kinda my complaint too. Twinned spell was the only thing that made it feel like you were doing something unique. Subtle spell is a role play thing. In combat casting silently is super niche. I want to play a sorcerer so I can manipulate magic. But d&D's biggest fault is it tries to make every magic class a riff on the wizard or the cleric.
@@SerifSansSerif They also probably get too much feedback from the obsessively optimising crowd, the worst people to ask. Trying to get new players into the system means letting people make their own fun, it doesn’t mean designing every class with specific multiclass combos in mind.
With the 2014 rules I had built a healer around divine soul/celestial using twinned and distant spell metamagics to increase the amount of healing and support I could play
Twined Spell now is more like "cast the spell one level higher". In early levels could twin ray of frost to slow down two targets, twin Mage Armor to put i two people, twin Word of Healing to lift two dying allies. Be a sorcerer was wirited as bend a spells to do what you like, do things that should be impossible if you was not a sorcerer, but now we just cast a spell normaly like any caster with a high level spell would and its not bend a spell is just cast like everyone else. People overlook powerfull spells to twin as polymorph and power death ray but never look at how usefull is even in "weak" spells.
I like the change to twin spell, but I think they needed to make new metamagics to fill the niches openned up by the change, but better balanced for the niche. Like there could be a split spell metamagic for single target healing and attack roll but does half healing/damage and halves any DCs if they have them. Or a shared spell for concentration buffs that makes it harder to keep concentration, but allows you have two people under the effects.
The main reason they didn't rename the twinned spell is for backwards compatibility. If there was no feature with this name in PHB 2024, you would be allowed to use the old one.
You may not have realized it but you just proved to me that this new metamagic is very nerfed (that is not a bad word you can use “worsened” it you fear the word). Yes it let you do things but the effect on the game even as said by you was minimal. Think about it twin revivify just means that you had two “done” PC that you are preventing from being all gone and thus preventing a party wipe - so the designers really wanted that? (Point to remember most players leave the table at 3 points first couple sessions, end of campaign and character demise) In an odd way you also make the case that all the same positive effects could have been given by making the meta magic 1 point. The fact that you feel it adds to that reality. The massive point cost limited the damage but only was an issue at tables that did not have enough encounters in a game day. So yeah not good.
I agree it's more of a lateral move in power, I just think it's less fun. As a DM, I did not care about twinning damage spells, it's twinning control spells like polymorph I worry about. I agree twinned spell needed a change in regards to concentration spells. I don't love this change, though I don't hate it. I just think it's aggressively okay and less fun.
I would agree, I love sorcerers and twin spell was to powerful but I think they over did it here. The pool of spells that this meta-magic can effect is to small and narrow to the point that it seems railroady. Twin spell went from top tier to almost garbage because of the limited spells. Granted this could change if they make more that this meta-magic can effect but as of now it suck A**.
Twin Polymorph is probably only problematic if you're targeting allies with it. If you're targeting enemies, it's basically on par with Hold Monster (I think?).
@@NotYourAverageNothing nah, polymorph is the ultimate spell because it was used for everything, control, buff, healing, and utility. My favorite use is to target the enemy and turn them into orcas or other 0 speed beast that can still breath and have decent health. That way we can still use AoEs without needing to worry if they will break form.
Banishment is exactly the spell I would have used to prove you are not Twinning with the new Twinspell. Cast the spell with a higher level spell slot, now apply your reasoning.
@@InsightCheck Right, Twinspell (2014) didn't allow you to use it on banishment if you cast it with a higher level slot. Now you can "twin" it by casting it on a 3rd target as if casting it with a higher level slot? Edit for clarity, the new version is stronger, but it's not twinning.
This change just means that sorcerers get to use crowd control spells better than other casters. You say the new book targeted ubiquity, but this option will likely still be ubiquitously taken. Why wouldn't a level 3 sorcerer take it if it means that they can cast hold person on 3 guards so the party can focus 1 down and auto crit the rest?
I do understand that when a game gives you an option, it does not want you to feel forced to choose the strongest. All options should be balanced, and you should pick what you like, not what is best. This is one of the reasons they changed twinned spell, reducing its spell options and removing its strongest combos. They also empowered the sorcerer with innate sorcery and other features, so they had to balance all these buffs with some veiled nerfs. Unique twinned spells that couldn't be achieved by other spellcasters even at higher levels will surely be missed, but now the sorcerer is stronger than ever. Homebrewing twinned spell to work like its old version would be a bit much imo, it would be unfair to other casters that are left behind. Sorcerers are already arguably the strongest arcane casters, buffing them even more is just unbalanced. If you really like the old twinned spell so much, you could just play the old sorcerer. I don't mean to dictate how anyone should have fun, I am just expressing my opinion here.
God...talking about 5.5e is so exhausting. Ah, I should specify that this isn't aimed at you at all Insight, this was actually a real well put together argument and I'm *almost* ready to switch up my thinking - the inner lizard brain still feels like something was 'taken'. But man, it feels like every 5.5e video that shows up is either talking about crippling design flaw or much like this video here, attempting to put out a fire. It just kinda feels like nobody's excited or even wants this new book, so I'm really struggling to figure out why we're even here...
2 problems Can't twin cantrips. Sorcerers lose utility It's still a near must pick along with quickened spell and maybe if you play a campaign late enough, you go for heightened spell or empowered spell
Its twinned themetically in an almost medical sense. You can now have like a 5th levek casting of banishment with an additonal sorcery point turning it to 3 banished targets right? So in that case its more like a triplet spell lol
I do wonder how much of the pushback against this change is caused by the old issue of the elasticity of the adventuring day. If there's a lot of encounters per long rest, twinning a Polymorph spell in 2014 isn't such a big balance issue because the cost is significant. It puts a big brake on all the other cool things you can do otherwise - not only fewer metamagic uses (twin polymorph, throw in a couple of quicked spells, and a heightened spell and you've just blown 11 Sorcery points!!!!), but it also slows down the economy of trading spell slots for SP. Compare that with the 1-2 combat per day model, where you can basically buildcraft around how to create and spend SP for those couple of encounters on a spreadsheet......How many players have really had to ration SP over 5-6 encounters where blowing 4+ at once represents a big expenditure on daily capability (I don't include Haste, that's just completely busted when twinned). I DO think they could've done more to lessen the impact of the change by working out how to get a few more spells into the list somehow - attack roll spells, perhaps? - because as you pointed out it is nearly an 80% reduction in options to counter the abuse of maybe a dozen problematic and unintended castings. But I do think it's much more aligned to intention, and the cheaper cost means you can really lean into those few spells that do still count - you'll just have to ride out the storm of complaints first to see how well it really lands.
Banishing 2 targets at level 4 = Twinned Banishing 2 targets at level 5 = Normal Sounds more like Upcast (Maybe rename upcast) that basically saves a spell slot of one level higher.
Keeping the old version of Twinspell. I don't always take it, but when i did, it filled gaps in the party comp. Twining healing word to keep the party up has saved us from PC deaths more than once. The higher cost more than makes up for the increased versatility. Also: "Change that adversely effects the way i use this feature" can be described as a 'Nerf' without the person saying it being dishonest, so save the whole " It is not a nerf it is a sidegrade' shtick, for some, this is a downgrade.
I think most of the controversy is around the designer's need to keep the name the same. There's really no doubt that the option needed to be toned down: it was basically a no brainier-must-pick-option that was far above it's peers. This lead to nonsensical Sage Advice nerfs like "you can't use it on Dragon's Breath," even though you clearly could according to the written rules. I get that it is not quite as cool as the initial 2014, as you now have a limited pool of spells it will work on, but it only costs a single SP.
The new *Twinned Spell*, as a concept, works. But its implementation is a let-down - to alleviate the concerns about the 'sidegrade', Jeremy Crawford claimed the scope of spells we could upcast would increase... but the implementation of the revised spells in the 2024 PHB are of pitiable scope. I can respect that some spells can't be upcast to affect more target because they already have an upcast that affects their potency rather than number of targets. My Divine Sorcerer would be thinking Healing Word or Heal here. Okay... fair. But there could have been many other spells. Why don't the Firebolt/Ray of Frost/Shocking Grasp not have an upcast option? Where's the upcast Polymorph for affecting multiple targets? Where the upcast Revivify for the Divine Soul? (Not that I think I would need it often, but the possibility was there) Haste has no upcast option and it could have had. Shield of Faith Death Ward? (the still stupidly weak) Protection from Energy? Greater Restoration? They are many missed opportunities here that could have been assets not only to the Twinning Sorcerer but also the Warlock and other classes willing to use a higher spell slot to cover an entire group with a spell.
Sorry, but I preferred the original version and didn't see a need to nerf it. So now it is on to finding new rules to exploit so that I can make my character as optimized as I can. That Conjure Minor Elementals spell looks nice.
wotc could've made a new metamagic called double spell. that lets you cast a single target spell that has an attack roll twice but against 2 different targets. yes technically you can still target +1 creature with this "new version" but it's just a free upcasting of a spell not the expectation of the word "twin".
I like that they are just using a pre-existing method for selecting more targets. I think given how cheap it is now it's going to be really really helpful.
Same. I think there’s improved accessibility as a result of its cheapness is being vastly underrated. It’s how also so easy to identify whether it works with TS or not.
This just seems like another nerf with very poor follow through. They change the way Twinned Spell works, but don't review the spells well enough to give more options with the new version. They make Hunter's Mark key to the Ranger class, but don't do enough work on reducing the number of spells on the Ranger list that require concentration. It makes it very hard to appreciate the new adjustments when Wizards doesn't do what is needed to make sure there are still plenty of options that synergize with the changes.
For sure twinned spell is now less appealing But I think it's fun how they literally inverted the eligible spells: you shouldn't chose to cast it on Bane spell, but now you can, it works on hold person at any level while in the old version it should have worked only on 2nd level version
Yeah, so the spell doesn't "twin" anything, all it does is upcast your spell by 1. As a DM what I would rule for this is that the original Twinned Spell will remain untouched, but have this new version called something different. I would have said Empowered Spell but that's already a thing with more damage added as the effect. I would call this one Overcharged Spell. It fit's thematically with the power fantasy of the effect without literally lying to players about what Twinned Spell actually does.
Old twin is dead, but this new thing is great. 1 point for an extra target on some of the best control spells in the game? Yes, please. I'm thinking of it as the single-target equivalent of Careful, which gets you extra targets by safely including allies in a blast. And twin should also work on Command, on the draconic list.
ב"ה I don't mind twin spell being autopick for sorcerers just like I don't mind precision attack being an autopick maneuver for battle masters. The precision attack maneuver wasn't changed for battlemaster, even though it is an autopick, and I can't see the problem with that.
Wouldn't this also work with Scorching ray? There's no requirement it has to start by targeting only one person, just that when it's upcast it targets an additional creature. Technically you can target an additional creature with the additional rays.
I think there’s an argument to be made but my instinct says that RAW, it does not work. Maybe RAI though. Since the upcast just lets you create additional rays whereas Twinned Spell specifically says “to target another creature”. To me that suggests that the upcasting option must specifically be ones that say they are intended to target another creature. Again though, I can see this going either way. It is worth noting that letting Scorching Ray work also lets Magic Missile work too. Not saying it’s a problem but just putting it out there!
@InsightCheck Good points! Thank you for your... insight! The wording on the new twin is interesting, "when you cast a spell... that CAN be cast...to target an additional creature." Not "that IS cast... to target an additional creature." To me the wording is vague enough to be open for interpretation in that regard.
You said the new version slows you to break the rules of the game still, but it doesn't. A wizard can cast fly on multiple people with one spell slot. Metamagic is supposed to be about changing the characteristics of a spell surely.
It sucks bad. It just isn't worth taking. Even if you had all meta magics you probably would never use this. It's mildly useful for some lvl 2 spells and is okay with banishment. That's really it.
uhm... looking at my dnd beyond characters on 2024 rules .... twinned spell is insanely cost effective - two (or more, depending on what slot you use + the effect of twinning) instances of haste - fly hold monster + probably more. hold monster targeting an extra target FOR 1 SORCERY POINT is bonkers! it's been reigned in but it's not worse unless all you think about is dealing damage... which if you think about it - 2 banished targets allow for precise targeting on those left...
"You can spend 1 Sorcery point to increase the spell's effective level by 1" and now we wait for WotC's next supplement to have spells that increase the number of targets for every TWO spell levels when upcast. This new version of Twinned Spell will not be making it to my table. Also I let twinned work on the Dragon's Breath spell because the devs are no fun.
Some points that I wanted to address that I only lightly touched on so I wanted to highlight them:
Some are saying that 2024 Twinned Spell doesn't let the Sorcerer do anything "unique" or that any other caster can't do, namely "upcast". This, is just untrue. Yes, any caster can upcast, however, Sorcerers, by virtue of Twinned Spell, are able to cast spells at an effective level *higher* than they have the spell slots to support. This is something that is exclusive to the Sorcerer class. A Wizard can not cast Banishment at 5th level until they reach at least level 9. I should also emphasize, that Twinned Spell is *not* upcasting the spell, it is instead providing that effect. It is a nuanced but important difference since you are expending a non spell slot resource to accomplish this. It's also important to mention that this is fundamentally how any of the 2014 Twinned Spells worked when the chosen spell had an "upcast" option except now it's a whole lot cheaper.
By the same token, I've seen some saying that the Wizard is essentially "just 2 levels behind the Sorcerer". Firstly, 2 levels is quite a bit. But secondly, that only assumes that the Sorcerer is using something like Banishment once, and not twice, which they absolutely could do, which would functionally give them 2 5th level spell slots, putting them even more "levels behind". This also doesn't factor in the that they can then continue to do this with lower level spells and with things like Sorcerous Restoration granting even more Sorcery Points and the fact that they can convert Spell Slots into Sorcery Points if they really wanted to.
In no way am I saying that this version is "perfect"… I’m not even saying that it’s “better”. I think it's just important to remember that the intended use case for Twinned Spell has just changed and that that's ok too. You don't need to like it, no one is forcing you to.
And to anyone upset about the name: 7:35.
Quote "Yes, any caster can upcast, however, Sorcerers, by virtue of Twinned Spell, are able to cast spells at an effective level higher than they have the spell slots to support." Forgive me if this sounds too harsh but woopti doo da. In the end you are spending a vital slot on something you will get for free by waiting a few levels and that can only be used with a tiny number of spells most of which also won't be taken.
Dude for what it may be worth I really enjoy your videos. I'm rooting for you to get that 10k subscribers. That being said I just utterly disagree with saying that twinned is still twinned anymore. They guys saying it should be renamed upcast are completely right. Its should be renamed since calling it twinned is just inaccurate and causes confusion or better yet just removed as its now completely eclipsed by the other others and has gone from a tried and true staple to an always left behind option.
You are more than entitled to your opinion on the matter :). I’m not here to argue with anyone, just to present perspective.
Mechanically I totally agree that it does what it says and is a much more elegant way of implementing the same effect. However I believe that it feels bad because it is no longer unique. Twinned spell used to be the only way to get this effect on certain spells and only sorcerers had access to it. But even as a sorcerer it was the only way for certain spells. That made Twinned Spell special. Now it isn't special at all. It's just a spell slot discount that you pay for with sorcery points. It no longer feels like doing something really unique. It feels like paying for your groceries with your gas money.
I think perhaps some spells should have specifically offered the "up cast" option only if twinned. It would be easy to put the rider in the spell that specifically called out twinning rather than allowing it to be up cast in general.
Having said that I actually like that there are more up cast options now. I think more spells should have up cast or even down cast options. I'd even like to see spells give you a choice of effect X or effect Y if you up cast by one level or both if you up cast by two. In fact maybe effect Y would only be available to Sorcerer's, but could be paid for with twinned spell.
@@thechangingofwaysI agree with this sentiment. It's not a matter of perspective, the video cherry picks the examples. Here's a really straightforward example: the old twinned spell allowed for two spells requiring concentration to be cast at the same time in a manner that no other spell caster could replicate under any circumstances. The new one can't.
lol in what way? Literally the example I “cherry picked” is a concentration spell.
2014 Twinned Spell: 4th level slot for Banishment and 4 SP to target 2 creatures.
2024 Twinned Spell: 4th level slot for Banishment and 1 SP to target 2 creatures.
While I do think the original UA version of twin spell was a bad representation of "twin spell," but I do like what it did as another option for meta magic. It could've even been called something like "Echo spell"
No, people could still take the old version based off how they’ve done it.
I need to finish the video before commenting don’t I.
5:42, it fundamentally, conceptually, practically, literally, etc…, pick your favorite word. It isn’t the same. It targets different spells and encourages different tactics in combat.
If they didn’t like it, they should’ve dropped twin and called it something different. I believe the only reason why it’s even called twined is to loop in that other rule where if you have two things named the same, you’re suppose to take the new version.
Being able to do really cool dynamic stuff with metamagic was the compensation sorcerers got for having fewer slots, a smaller selection and fixed spells. Twinning was one of the few metamagics that actually achieved that goal. If they were going to hard nerf one of the sorcerer's best tools they should have at least softened the blow with significantly more compatible spells
What do you mean, fewer slots? Arcane Recovery and using sorcery points for slots are fairly parallel. In TCE, Clerics only gained the ability to regain ONE spell slot using a channel divinity, once per day. Where previously they had none.
@@AnaseSkyrider using sorcery points to recover slots prevents you from using your sorcerer mechanics. Arcane Recovery does not cost you anything but time. At 5th level recovering a 3rd level slot would cost all of your sorcery points.
I can't recall off the top of my head most of the 2024 class changes, but in Tasha's, Harness Divine Power uses progressed with your channel divinity, so you have 2 uses of it per long rest at level 6 and a 3rd at 18.
But I was basing my comparison more towards wizards since it seems like the most direct comparison. The 2's spell lists are most similar by a significant margin, they normally have no armor proficiency and a d6 for hit die.
Couldnt agree more
I read all the comments and I don't think the name is the problem, I think the *wording* of the feature is what's making people feel so distinctly less-empowered.
7:08
The 2014 version presents this as a spell which initially can only target 1 creature, and lets you spend points to change that. Now you get to target a second creature.
It feels like you're circumventing the natural laws with this very special ability. That is to say it feels well, magical.
The fact that you spend sorcerery points equal to the spell's level is presented as pretty incidental, the highlighted benefit here is the second creature you can target.
To underscore this, the creature reiterates that the spell has to be *incapable* of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. It's really emphasizing that you're taking a spell which usually can't multi-target, and using your power to break that rule.
Compare this to the 2024 description. It says that the spell you're casting is already capable of targeting an additional creature (when cast with a higher level spell slot), and presents the main benefit of this feature as being able to spend Sorcerery Points (note; it's even capitalized this time) to increase the spell’s level.
Which feels like "wait isn't that just upcasting?" even though it's actually extremely similar to the effect of the 2014 version.
The difference? ✨Presentation!✨
I think most of the reaction you're seeing is the result of a subconscious interpretation of these different descriptions leading to feeling empowered beyond the normal rules of the game (2014), or feeling the rules are restricting the uniqueness, and consequently the entire fantasy, of the class (2024). I think that's affecting how people feel about this far more than the actual mechanical differences like the selection of spells you can use it with, or the role of cantrips within this feature.
I hope this helps!💜
This was a great lesson for me (as someone making my own ttrpg) of how important it is to carefully describe your mechanics in a way that evokes the intended emotion in the reader😅
I think your analysis is spot on.
Even if I dislike the change as a whole due to fewer spell options, my biggest gripe is the new flavor (or lack there of). The new wording/rules for the spell lack any feeling of twinning a spell (even if the effect is the same).
That was my impression as well, I feel like they could have lessened the dissonance if they worded it something along the lines of "[...] you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to target an additional creature as if upcasting", it is still limited to spells the designers intent to multitarget but moving the targeting increase into the metamagic description itself makes it feel more than just an upcast
the new edition feels 1 step forward 2 steps back
Not being able to twin spells with attack rolls is the true shame of the new version, and thats not even that powerful...
You can technically use it on Scorching Ray and Magic Missile but that's about it.
But quicken became more enticing because of this. if they did their math right ( not including conjure minor elementals) we should see wayyy more balanced combat across the board when it comes to the revised monsters. Twinning might “not have been that powerful” in 2014 but it may be too powerful for it to be its old version to be in the 2024 sorcerer compared to the new baddies survivability
@@floofzykitty5072 I think that’s a grey area and I land on the “no, you can’t side”, but would still ask my DM and be happy if they allow it.
The problem is that if you can apply it to damage spells then you have to make it cost more.
@@floofzykitty5072ummm... I would not allow that at my table. Magic missile doesn't say you add a target for upcasting. It says you add a missile.... Which may or may not target someone else. That is not the same.
When a new feature has the same name as an old feature that isn't because that's a good name for it, but that it marks the old feature as obsolete.
Then stacking Mobile and Speedy sounds interesting
@@birubu Yeah that IS WEIRD
@@birubuSpeedy and Befuddlement have explicit annotations in the printed book that they replace mobile and feeblemind
The new feature seems more obsolete them the old one.
@@mikeuuby You mean you like it less. By obsolete I mean it isn't the one used as standard going forward.
One small wish I had with the feature; if it would label which spells could be twinned, at least for the sorcerer spell list.
Similar to how concentration spells are marked with a "C" or rituals are marked with an "R"; I wish that twin-able spells would be marked with a "T"
Love the channel man, keep up the good work!
It really would be an excellent quality of life improvement! And thank you so much! Always appreciate your support and help!
@@JumpySonicBear The problem is that it’s so few spells it would highlight how niche it is now.
One of the sillier changes to 5e in my opinion. Twinned Spell was being used to great effect for *teamwork*: revivify, haste, shield of faith, levitate etc. Yeah it might have needed a little tuning, maybe bump the SP cost by 1 point to address the balance somewhat, but twinned spell wasn't "breaking" anything.
It broke the game by being one of the very few metamagics that was useful and we couldn't have that.
@@Ahglock for sure, so instead of making more useful and unique metamagics we are going to nerf the most interesting and unique one into the ground.
It's disingenuous to say it does the same thing when it clearly does not. It's objectively not the same picture.
At its core, it is absolutely doing the same thing and there is nothing disingenuous about it. The use case for the ability has changed as has the spells that work with it but the core functionality of using it to target an additional creature is the same.
@@InsightCheck Those are significant qualifiers to make the result look the same.
@@InsightCheck just because it has the same effect in a very specific use doesn't mean it is doing the same. Especially when the new version has about 1/8 the usable spells.
Now I'm not saying it's a bad change, just that is is not the same. I agree with another commenter that they kept the name because of their use the new stuff loop.
I think a better name would be something like 'multi targeting', especially when you consider that the new version arguably works for things like Magic Missile. Base it can target 3, upcast can target 4.
Right? it's like if the printer ran out of ink and printed the second photo in pink
@@martinbowyer7906 I agree the change is alright elegant even, just it's not really twinning a spell not as fun. I think wotc could have change around a few meta magic options while keeping the same names and adding some new ones so as to prevent automatic import from prior books. Basically breaking up twinned spell into multiple metamagic options while still calling one of them twinned spell.
Twinned Spell is great because it always edges into the next Spell Level while others are simple not strong enough, granted it can upcast to gain an additional target.
Example: While everyone is casting Hold Person at 2nd level as a 3rd level caster, Sorcerer's upcast (Twinned) for 3rd level at level 3.
The scope of the new twinned spell is so limited and the means it goes about it is so different, it makes it feel like it isn’t the same meta magic as before even though it has the same effect.
Furthermore, the limited spell options for this twinned spell make it feel worse than the other meta magic options because all other options have much larger pools of spells they can affect.
If they dropped the middle of the description this would still be a really good meta magic that lets you upcasts spells at a discount. Call it enhanced spell. The play test one could be called echoed spell. And a buffed but extremely expensive version of 2014 twinned spell can be called twinned spell.
I mostly agree with your video, I just don’t think you put an appropriate amount of weight towards how the changes effect the feel of the metamagic
The new twin spell could work. The problem is, that there are now very niche uses and not enough spells. Few movement and stealth spells, like fly, spider climb, invisibility (jump lol), some encounter ending spells like banishment, hold person, Blindness. Only one buff spell (freedom of movement) and only one damage spell (chain lighting).
I understand the need to nerf twin spell and let other option shine. But as a dm I never found double haste to be OP, or even double healing spells. My problem is with save or suck spells, and that was not addressed. The best metamagic was not twin spell, it was heighten spell. And now it's even stronger.
I understand the thought process of trying to make Twinned Spell a less required option, but I think the bigger problem was the strong restrictions on the amount of Metamagic options a sorcerer could take. I think the better design choice (and the one I use at my table) is to have all Metamagic options available to a Sorcerer at 3rd level, and following a long rest, they prepare a number of them equal to their Charisma modifier. This way, even if every single Sorcerer prepares Twinned Spell, they don’t feel restricted to try other ones, and learn how they can be utilized in different situations.
Yeah, but why even have that restriction? Why not just allow sorcerers to use every single meta magic without restriction? It's like the fact that the new weapon mastery restricts you from having all of them at once - but you just change them after a rest anyway, so it's functionally having all of them with an extra step.
@HorizonOfHope you have a good point
Having more metamagic options at your fingertips doesn't necessarily mean that can all be used at the same time. If anything, it gives sorcerers more flexibility overall.
If nothing else, giving more options earlier wouldn't have any significant impact on the games I run
My favorite combo was twin spell with vortex warp. A shame I can't do that anymore.
One thing you didnt mention that I think is a buff however, is that you can use Twinned Spell on something you are already upcasting. The level 3 spell Fly targets additional creatures when upcast. So casting it at level 3 with twinned spell is the same as upcasting using a level 4 spell slot and targets two creatures. If i cast Fly as a level 4 spell but also twin spell it, I can now target 3 creatures as if I used a level 5 spell slot. And it's still just one sorcery point.
Oh my god, that's great. You can even target an enemy and an ally together.
It’s a point I lightly touched on when mentioning Banishment and being able to effectively get a 5th level slot for free. But yeah, this is a great point to highlight!
3:20
The problem with the ubiquity is twinned spell is that it's only ubiquitous, because most of the other metamagic options are just hot ass. Extended, Distant, Trasmuted, Subtle and Careful are all either useless(extended and distant) or very situational(Trasnmuted, Careful, Subtle)
Twinned, Quickened and Heightened are the only metamagics really worth picking. This is further compounded by how little MM options you gain
Tl;dr the sorcerer class is badly designed
The new twinned spell is a major flavor fail.
I have played a sorcerer for a couple short campaigns, but it has become tied for my favorite class (rouge if you’re wondering). I have always considered subtle spell the must take metamagic option, but that’s besides the point.
When I take twinned spell, the spells I most often twinned were Suggestion and Hold Person. Under the new rules, the former is no longer possible and for the latter is far more powerful but lacks the proper flavor. I believe this flavor fail stems from keeping the name “twinned” spell. It is no longer “twinning” a spell. It is upcasting a spell for an alternative cost in order to target an additional creature. That is not “twinning” even if the results are usually the same.
If I understand the new rules correctly this is now how twinned spell can work: Upcast hold person THEN twinned spell to target THREE or MORE creatures depending on the lvl it was cast.
The new twinned spell appears to replace the restriction of spells cast with a single target with spells that can be upcast to have multiple targets. This allows you to have the initial spell already target multiple creatures. So now you are no longer twinning (doubling) the spell, but are instead just adding one.
This is a big enough change to warrant a corresponding name change (they changed the name of “ki points” and those didn’t change mechanically at all). I would be much happier if they had changed the name to something like “Prolific Spell” because it better fits the new flavor of ADDING to the number of creatures targeted rather than MULTIPLYING.
Rip twinned chromatic orb the spell they used as an example for twin spell
Should have just called it "upcast spell"
Agreed! Because that's literally all it's doing, it would at least be broadly applicable.
@dungeondr I don't think it would be OP to get an extra die on a fireball for a sorcery point for example.
While that would make sense then Twin spell would still exist as an option so it wouldn't have fixed the problem with it.
@dabeef2112 I don't want twin spell to exist. I want metamagic called upcast spell. How many points, negotiable.
@@g00se99 You're missing my point. If they left it out of the 2024 PHB then the 2014 version would still be allowed as it wasn't replaced. But by not changing the name now it has been replaced and therefore the old version is now unavailable.
I think what people mean when they say the new 'Twinned Spell' is less 'unique' isnt that the 2024 version doesn't stand out as a unique ability, but that the ability itself doesn't really do anything outstanding with spells anymore.
For example: in 2014 you could Twinned Spell Dissonant Whispers, a single target spell that has no capability of targeting multiple people, even when upcast. Spending a sorcery point there would fundamentally change how that spell works, which gave Twinned Spell a particular appeal that you could only find in the hands of Sorcerers.
Now it simply upcasts spells but only spells that add targets when upcasts, something that every other spellcaster can do, except sorcerers can do it in exchange for a sorcery point instead. You aren't 'bending the rules of magic' anymore, not in the same way anyway. I'm not saying 2014 is better than 2024 or vice versa, but the changes made do make a big difference in how it FEELS to use Twinned Spell now.
At risk of sounding a bit cliche... Twinned Spell lost a bit of its magic.
Hear me out; I cast banishment at the 10th. Only a sorcerer can ever cast anything at tenth.
@@erikkesler1739 who cares?
Designing the game around high level features is stupid as so little play happens there.
@@HorizonOfHope If you are never going to see that available then you never gonna see anyone that isn't a sorc cast at 9th and that cascades on down.
Twinned spell was included in the 2014 PHB. The comment about how the spells were not intended to be used this way is half true at best. It was one of the original features that was released with the original spells. The designers knew what they were doing when they made twinned spell.
I understand why people play wizards...they get the most and best spells in the game. Yay for them. They are required to follow the spellcasting rules and I find that incredibly boring.
I play sorcerers simply because I get to bend or even break the rules of spell casting. I never once felt like I had to take twinned spell, I felt like i got to. Having more eligible options weighed againsy the cost is what made it fun. And i have never heard of a situation where twinned spell ever broke the game.
Regardless, this isn't a sidegrade. It is a straight nerf. Being able to upcast for a point? Sure, great. But the lack of spell options wrecks the creativity for this metamagic, and takes away a huge part of what makes sorcerers so special.
I plan on making both options available in my games. Will it break the game? Maybe...but if DND wasnt already broken then they wouldn't need to rebuild it from the ground up.
Being able to cast 3rd level spells at 4th level for a single SP is insanely good. You only get one of your high level spell slots, so being able to cast multiple spells at 6th-9th level is a big power boost.
The usability is not in question. It's just not "Twinning" a spell.
@@Shakkataka It's still doing the same thing,
In fact it's no longer locked to the lowest level for spells like Banishment and Haste,
Which makes those better targets than they wer before.
@@BramLastname I doesn’t even work with spells like haste because it doesn't upcast.
@@Shakkataka oh yeah, my bad,
I thought they changed Haste too,
But it's one of the few that should've been upcastable that still isn't.
However point still stands,
Despite no longer being a ubiquitous damage boost
It is less restrictive in its use for the spells it was designed to work with.
@BramLastname it wasn't restrictive before. Who was saying, " Wish I could twin this already upcasted spell. Oh well, I guess I'll just upcast it more."
Also, it's more restricted now because you straight-up can't use it on spells you could have before.
Nice one, covered a big change to my favorite class! That said I remember twinning revivify once and it was clutch
Twinning Revivify at the right moment and being able to swerve the diamond cost is glorious.
I appreciate your video as always.
I disagree.
1) I believe the designers and others have made the mistake of assuming because it was used, that it was overpowered. By that logic battlemaster is the most overpowered class. People play sorc and love to find interesting ways to cast the same old spells, twin fed into that better than the others...
2) Because it had unplanned interactions. It gave high highs in the game when everyone else was playing at a 5, sorc could play at 9 for a couple rounds. Big risk, big rewards, great stories. Now?
3) its just upcast spell on an anemic highly curated list. There are no interesting secrets. There are no neat interactions. Its sorc at 5.5. Yay. Wee. Oh, wow. Really have a lot to choose from here.
4) And the cost of this "lol balance "? A more boring game with a class thats more watered down.
Twin spell should have been a baseline feature. It should make people excited to try it on thier whole spell list. It WAS fun and engaging, now it's a damp washrag, useful but infinitely forgettable.
It would be nice if it worked on spells that "can" target multiple people. Give an extra hit of Scorching Ray, magic missile, chromatic orb, etc...
I think there’s a chance that they might be able to. It’s unclear at the moment. As it currently stands, RAW, I would say “no” but I can absolutely see a DM reasonably say they do work. I would expect a clarification on this at some point!
Good video with reasoned explanation and a positive outlook. I appreciate that. It would be great to do a deep dive into metamagic now after the rules update in order to highlight some of the creative changes and things now made more viable.
A 10th level sorcerer can easilly cast 5 twinned hold monsters
Cast twinned hold monster twice with their 5th lvl slots and 2 sorcery points
Use the remaining 8 to create a 5th slot to twinspell it again.
Convert your 2 4th lvl slots for another twinspelled hold monster
Convert 2 3's and a 2 for another twinned hold monster
And with your other spells slots/short resting you can also muster up the sorcery points to make all those saves be at disadvantage thanks to heightened spell and sorcery incarnate.
Is it a good thing to throw all of your resources at all the time? Probably not but the option being there is kinda nuts
lol honestly your point is well taken. Is it “good”? Probably not. But it is possible and allows for a lot of creativity with the feature. Sure, maybe exactly what you stated here isn’t great, but there’s probably some version of this that is incredible.
If you're taking this meta-magic simply to become a hold monster bot then sure have at it.
@@mezcla191 I wil thank you
Going to enjoy seeing the insane damage numbers my martial friends are going to bust out with the auto crits i will give them.
Not to mention how fun it will be for me to chuck carefull fireballs and vitrolic spheres which the paralysed monsters will autofail while i don't need to worry about hurting said martial friends
@@KiallVunMyeret if that's what's fun for you then go ahead, I'm not stopping you. Matter of fact it seems that's what Wizards is trying to do with the change.
Does base twinning simply allow you to essentially increase the number of targets for upcastable spells? Meaning if I cast Charm Person at 2nd level and twin it, can I target 3 creatures instead of 2? It reads that way to me, but I wanted others interpretations.
My interpretation is that this is exactly how it works. If you are already upcasting the spell, you can combine it with Twinned Spell.
The 2024 version of Twinned Spell is nowhere near identical to the 2014 version of Twinned Spell, for two major reasons:
* The 2024 effect (essentially "upcasting" a spell) is more comparable to the Evocation Wizard's Overchannel or the Wild Magic Sorcerer's Spell Bombardment, and would be more grammatically accurate if called Heighten Spell (this does have its own effect - the giving of Disadvantage on a target's saving throw against the spell - but that doesn't change the linguistic element).
* The 2024 version cannot be used on cantrips, which are almost all single-target. The 2014 version can be used on cantrips, giving it a lot more flexibility.
You are utterly wrong in saying that it is still "Twinning" with the 2024 version. With the 2014 version, any spell that wouldn't be able to target multiple targets would suddenly be able to target an extra target (essentially casting it a 2nd time for cheap without needing to wait for another turn or use an extra action/bonus action/reaction; keep in mind that the 2014 PHB does not say that it requires an attack roll), such as with Chromatic Orb, Fire Bolt, Shocking Grasp, Guiding Bolt, Witch Bolt, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Power Word Heal, Holy Weapon, Friends, Compelled Duel, Geas, Dominate Person, etc. The new version can't do any of that - instead it just upcasts the spell (which may or may not include allowing it to be twinned - as in being able to select more than one target).
I think this version is great, and it works with old spells not reprinted if they’re allowed by the DM, like Mind Whip. Twinning mind whip, hold person would be go-to options from early levels all the way through level 20. And then banishment and hold monster up at higher levels. I love it.
I do agree with an earlier comment about losing out on twinning cantrips being a shame.
It doesn’t work for twinning a cantrip. Can’t cast two fire bolts. That was handy. I do get the changes though. Very good arguments for the change in this video.
Another great video. Keep it up!
This iteration of Twin Spell functions almost the same as 3ed Heighten Spell.
I don't think it's bad, though I do think it's different enough that it really isn't the same thing. For me the key feature of the 2014 Twinned Spell was that it enabled you to do something that the spell otherwise could not do, which is not the case for the 2024 version. Instead of enabling a spell that cannot affect multiple targets to do so, it only works on spells that can affect multiple targets. So, for me, while it can have a similar effect it doesn't do the same thing--turning a single-target-ONLY spell into a dual target spell.
The funny thing about the criticism I've heard is that it only works on certain spells now. Most of the metamagics have restrictions on what spells they work on. Extend only works on spells w/ durations longer than 1 min. Empower only works on damaging spells, Heighten only works on saving throw spells, so on and so forth. And it still twins spells. It takes certain spells and allows you to affect two people with the one casting at the cost of a sorcery point. Revising rules is difficult. If you change something to make an overpowered option weaker to put in more in line with other options, you are going to upset those players who enjoyed those options. People just like to complain. I was a 3.0 sorcerer player who loved using haste to double cast spells and make me the most powerful character at the table. When they revised 3.0 to 3.5, they changed it to not allowing casting a second spell with your haste action, I was upset. By as time progressed, I saw how by nerfing that option, it opened up more options for teamwork and more creativity in my spellcasting. This is just the modern version of that.
You are contradicting one of the specific design goals named by JC for the phb 2024
He said the goal is to have features be less pidgeonholed and less situational, and not game breaking in those situations and useless elsewhere…. And there we go making twin op in one situation and pointless everywhere else
I appreciate your analysis but not calling it a nerf is hugely disingenuous. The fact that it only works on 17 spells now (less than 2 per spell level) means that it is almost completely useless. Most metamagic applied to ANY spell you wanted to cast, narrowing Twin Spell to only a handful means that it will never be taken. Why would you invest a metamagic selection in something that may only affect 1 or 2 of your spells? Sorcerers don't get many spells as it is and if you look at the list of twinable spells there are only a couple that you would ever take. As you mentioned most of the other metamagic selections were buffed so the nerf was really unnecessary. Optimization aside, the flavor of being able to "break the rules" and do something others casts couldn't was part of the glory of the spell - that's gone now. Any class can get multiple targets with these spells, it just costs them a different resource to do it. RIP Twin Spell.
You’re more than entitled to that opinion and make no mistake, I understand where you are coming from. I just happen to disagree and that’s ok. I also don’t believe anything I said was disingenuous. Twinned Spell might not be the best choice every time now… but that’s ok. There shouldn’t always be a best choice every time. If there is, that’s just bad design. The route they opted for allows Twinned Spell to accomplish the same function while also limiting its applicability, but, in exchange received a massive discount on it. There are still plenty of very valid uses. If anything, I would say that you calling it “useless” is disingenuous lol. The use case for the ability is very different now, that is 100% true, but that doesn’t make it useless. To each their own.
You are kinda exaggerating
Cost to power it's a buff, Actual power it's a nerf. The problem I have is that it isn't Twinspell anymore. I think Twinspell needed a nerf, I would have not let it work on concentration spells anymore, personally.
I consider versatility and reliable applicability part of a feature's power, so I can agree it's a nerf.
If someone doesn't see it that way, though, that's a valid perspective; you can't, with certainty, accurately say they're just pretending.
I wish they made many more spells able to target more creatures with higher-level slots, though: Mage Armor, Crown of Madness, Enlarge Reduce, Levitate, Suggestion, Protection from Energy, etc. Better yet, change the option to upcast any spell that has an upcast option and rename it.
But, in the cases where it does apply, it DOES sound like a pretty good option. I'd actually consider taking any of the spells displayed *because* they work with Twinned Spell. The new Jump, Fly, Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person...all quite good in my eyes!
@CalebWillden I absolutely agree that I wish they had created many more spells that would work with it and I hope they continue to in future books.
8:39 some spells are straight up missing, like I can’t find them but if I click the link when they’re in a list it takes me to the description. Grasping Vine is one of them, not in the Spells G section, but if I click it in the Druid’s spell list in their class chapter I can read the spell’s description
I never used old twin spell if the spell could naturally be upcast so the metamagic has lost all appeal and I'll never take it again.
I take meta magic to do something unique to sorcerer.
Saying it's not a nerf is wild to me.
I mean, you don’t have to like it but again, as I said in the video, it doesn’t have to be a “nerf” either. It’s better in some situations. Worse in others.
@@InsightCheck Being better in X cases and worse in Y cases doesn't make something equal. It is important to know how much better they are respectively in those cases, and how much each case occurs.
For Twinned Spell, the slight cost reduction in the few cases the 2024 version comes up is not even wildly close to the benefit of bypassing Concentration on the many cases that was useful in the 2014 version.
This is largely an apples and oranges comparison though. Sorcerers can use TS significantly more times now than they could before especially when you factor in Sorcerous Restoration. There are also still tons of Concentration spells this works with like Banishment, Fly, Hold Monster/Person, Invisibility. And again, you get to use these more often. Yes, the use case has changed, but that doesn’t need to make it necessarily worse.
@InsightCheck Better for 15 spells and removed from 39 spells. Please explain how that's not a nerf.
Being able to use it more frequently but with a massively reduced selection of spells doesn't really give me more uses of twinned spell. It only works when I cast the two or three spells I take that can be twinned and if I don't need to cast the specific spell I can twin then it's a wasted metamagic.
@sairadinnmichaelis ok.
For clarity, I’m not here to argue, I’m just here to present what I believe to be a misunderstood or overlooked element. You don’t need to agree or even like the new version, that’s perfectly fine with me.
I feel like the playtest version and the 2024 version could have been their own metamagics.
And yeah its functionally the same in 2024 but the shear amount of less options is sad. If there were more, it would be fine.
I do think there needed to be a penalty to offset how strong the 2014 Twin spell could be. Maybe if you use a concentration spell you get a penalty to concentration checks? Not disadvantage since passive concentration can be a thing. Maybe a penalty equal to the spells level? Since your focusing on two instances of a concentration spell. So sure, you can Twin haste but thats a -3 penalty to concentration.
Maybe increase the sorcery point cost for higher level spells? Sure you can Twin Disintegrate but youll burn through most of your sorcery points.
One thing is that I wish you could still twin cantrips. It wouldn’t be as gamebreaking as a twinned leveled spell, and it would have the same point cost as the old version
I wonder if part of the issue is they've taken away some of the uniqueness in the sense that sorcerors being able to twin non-upcastable/more target spells allowed them to do things other casters couldn't. Twin haste, twin Phantasmal Force for example. It was unique.
The new version is nerfed and buffed and perhaps more balance. Take the Banishment example - it now only costs you 1 sorc point to hit two targets vs 4 before, and you can do it at lvl 7 rather than 9 when you have lvl 5 spells. But another caster at lvl9 can do the same thing just using the higher level slot. Is the sorcerer getting the better deal? Yeah, probably - especially considering 2 levels of advantage time wise being able to do that thing. For spells it can be used on - particularly higher level spells like Banish - it's a new efficiency gain resource wise. But it's less useable across the range of spells.
Now looking at a lot of the other metamagics most are situational. Heighten (excellent but save based spells), seeking (attacks), extended (buffed now to provide conc protection but still only duration or conc spells), careful spell (AOE spells with friendly fire), quicken spell (anything, but situational by application), subtle spell (anything but situational by application). Most metamagics are situational and now Twin is one of them. Before the only requirement was having two targets and the spell being single target only, but the cost was it was only efficient at lower level spells (but people still used it anyway as the opportunity cost of using it on those higher level spells was strong). Now the situationalness is far more baked in, but it offers better value at the cost of sacrificing the uniqueness of the effect.
Me personally? The new Heighten Spell is massively improved and the choice of metamagics is far more balanced and we get more of them by 10. I'll take the trade, but I do see where other people have issues. Looking at the package rather than at the single feature helps I think.
You make some good points, the but are too unclear about the difference on flavour or power especially in your pinned comment
Flavour: what many dislike is that sorceres felt unique and that’s gone. No one argues 2levels higher isn’t good, but most spells you cast aren’t your highest spell slot, so from the outside it’s not unique, in the vast majority of cases the wizard could have done it too if they wanted to, and for the 1 spell casting they can’t “yet(!)”
Power: in pushes sorc into a small set of spells that we will see over and over and over in every situation pairing heighten with innate and twin and then banish banish banish banish hold hold hold hold hold
Either the dm cranks up the power of encounters to an insane level or doesn’t present creatures where this works. The sorc will be broken either on the upper or lower end.
It’s poor design both in flavour and balance. Restricting its use cases while making it cost a quarter is crazy. And nothing said you can’t cast banishment at 6th level and add a fourth creature making the name “twin” dumb^^
The lack of character uniqueness is what bothers me most here to be honest :(
One question I have about the new twinned spell is how many spells were updated to account for the new version? This is something Crawford mentioned they would do when going over the new versions of the classes
I don’t disagree with you. It does double the effect of a spell. The issue from what I see is mostly the changes to spells.
I see a pattern (intentional or not) of taking the things that players found, and liked to do, away from them.
That doesn’t really feel like an improvement to the game.
There are/were so many fun combos to try and play with in 5e, that anyone was unlikely to be able to play half of them.
I know JC and his crew love the game, and are trying to make more and better options for the game.
However, I can’t shake the feeling that we’re all just being pushed into his vision of what dnd should look like.
I can not wrap my head around the backgrounds, and how limiting they are in choice.
Making the game more accessible to new players is fine, but they’ve really hamstrung experienced players in some areas by doing so.
My $0.02 worth.
I love the new version of careful spell. As a GM with a general “no non-consensual pvp” rule, the old version of that meta magic was still not usable unless your ally agreed to get fireballed (for half damage). This new version of the meta magic is a huge help for keeping things friendly and civil at the table.
Twinning healing word as a divine soul was my favorite thing to do. Now its impossible
I would have been way happier if we had the old and new versions in tandem, but making a clear definition of what could and could not be cast. Twinned spell but with the implication that it can't be used on any spell that needs concentration ALONGSIDE this option, dubbed something like "expanded spell" or something, maybe. 5e24's designers should have kept with the theme of giving more options.
I dont hate it, but what I dislike is that the reason I pick sorcerer over wizard is that sorcerers can highly optimize their damage with twinned spell and quickened spell.
Wouldn't the new wording make magic missile and scorching ray valid targets for twinning, since they can now target another creature when up cast?
The new version sucks. The sorcerer has always been basically a wizard with a worse spell list.
Metamagic is meant to be the way that it gets to be *different.* The sorcerer can do what no other class can in this one specific way.
Now it’s just doing the same old thing, really.
Extended spell is basically just a discount on casting a spell again, as is twin spell.
Empowered spell and heightened spell are things that other classes can do: roll dice. Sure, it improves your odds, but anyone can already just roll dice. So what if you roll slightly higher? Heightened spell is basically just a magic item with a +3 bonus for all intents and purposes.
Only subtle spell is truly unique to sorcerers. No other class can reliably cast without components.
That’s what the new twin spell is missing: it robs the sorcerer of one of their truly unique features.
That's kinda my complaint too. Twinned spell was the only thing that made it feel like you were doing something unique.
Subtle spell is a role play thing. In combat casting silently is super niche.
I want to play a sorcerer so I can manipulate magic.
But d&D's biggest fault is it tries to make every magic class a riff on the wizard or the cleric.
@@SerifSansSerif They also probably get too much feedback from the obsessively optimising crowd, the worst people to ask.
Trying to get new players into the system means letting people make their own fun, it doesn’t mean designing every class with specific multiclass combos in mind.
With the 2014 rules I had built a healer around divine soul/celestial using twinned and distant spell metamagics to increase the amount of healing and support I could play
Twined Spell now is more like "cast the spell one level higher". In early levels could twin ray of frost to slow down two targets, twin Mage Armor to put i two people, twin Word of Healing to lift two dying allies.
Be a sorcerer was wirited as bend a spells to do what you like, do things that should be impossible if you was not a sorcerer, but now we just cast a spell normaly like any caster with a high level spell would and its not bend a spell is just cast like everyone else.
People overlook powerfull spells to twin as polymorph and power death ray but never look at how usefull is even in "weak" spells.
I like the change to twin spell, but I think they needed to make new metamagics to fill the niches openned up by the change, but better balanced for the niche. Like there could be a split spell metamagic for single target healing and attack roll but does half healing/damage and halves any DCs if they have them.
Or a shared spell for concentration buffs that makes it harder to keep concentration, but allows you have two people under the effects.
The main reason they didn't rename the twinned spell is for backwards compatibility. If there was no feature with this name in PHB 2024, you would be allowed to use the old one.
Plus i mean healing 4d8+10 total hit points the party is kinda cracked tbh, even if it’s divided between two people
You may not have realized it but you just proved to me that this new metamagic is very nerfed (that is not a bad word you can use “worsened” it you fear the word). Yes it let you do things but the effect on the game even as said by you was minimal.
Think about it twin revivify just means that you had two “done” PC that you are preventing from being all gone and thus preventing a party wipe - so the designers really wanted that? (Point to remember most players leave the table at 3 points first couple sessions, end of campaign and character demise)
In an odd way you also make the case that all the same positive effects could have been given by making the meta magic 1 point.
The fact that you feel it adds to that reality. The massive point cost limited the damage but only was an issue at tables that did not have enough encounters in a game day. So yeah not good.
I agree it's more of a lateral move in power, I just think it's less fun. As a DM, I did not care about twinning damage spells, it's twinning control spells like polymorph I worry about. I agree twinned spell needed a change in regards to concentration spells. I don't love this change, though I don't hate it. I just think it's aggressively okay and less fun.
I would agree, I love sorcerers and twin spell was to powerful but I think they over did it here. The pool of spells that this meta-magic can effect is to small and narrow to the point that it seems railroady. Twin spell went from top tier to almost garbage because of the limited spells. Granted this could change if they make more that this meta-magic can effect but as of now it suck A**.
Twin Polymorph is probably only problematic if you're targeting allies with it. If you're targeting enemies, it's basically on par with Hold Monster (I think?).
@@NotYourAverageNothing nah, polymorph is the ultimate spell because it was used for everything, control, buff, healing, and utility. My favorite use is to target the enemy and turn them into orcas or other 0 speed beast that can still breath and have decent health. That way we can still use AoEs without needing to worry if they will break form.
Would you not consider Scorching ray? It gives more rays which technically adds more targets 😊
Banishment is exactly the spell I would have used to prove you are not Twinning with the new Twinspell. Cast the spell with a higher level spell slot, now apply your reasoning.
… 6:02
@@InsightCheck Right, Twinspell (2014) didn't allow you to use it on banishment if you cast it with a higher level slot. Now you can "twin" it by casting it on a 3rd target as if casting it with a higher level slot? Edit for clarity, the new version is stronger, but it's not twinning.
This change just means that sorcerers get to use crowd control spells better than other casters. You say the new book targeted ubiquity, but this option will likely still be ubiquitously taken. Why wouldn't a level 3 sorcerer take it if it means that they can cast hold person on 3 guards so the party can focus 1 down and auto crit the rest?
I do understand that when a game gives you an option, it does not want you to feel forced to choose the strongest. All options should be balanced, and you should pick what you like, not what is best.
This is one of the reasons they changed twinned spell, reducing its spell options and removing its strongest combos.
They also empowered the sorcerer with innate sorcery and other features, so they had to balance all these buffs with some veiled nerfs.
Unique twinned spells that couldn't be achieved by other spellcasters even at higher levels will surely be missed, but now the sorcerer is stronger than ever.
Homebrewing twinned spell to work like its old version would be a bit much imo, it would be unfair to other casters that are left behind. Sorcerers are already arguably the strongest arcane casters, buffing them even more is just unbalanced. If you really like the old twinned spell so much, you could just play the old sorcerer.
I don't mean to dictate how anyone should have fun, I am just expressing my opinion here.
God...talking about 5.5e is so exhausting. Ah, I should specify that this isn't aimed at you at all Insight, this was actually a real well put together argument and I'm *almost* ready to switch up my thinking - the inner lizard brain still feels like something was 'taken'. But man, it feels like every 5.5e video that shows up is either talking about crippling design flaw or much like this video here, attempting to put out a fire.
It just kinda feels like nobody's excited or even wants this new book, so I'm really struggling to figure out why we're even here...
2 problems
Can't twin cantrips. Sorcerers lose utility
It's still a near must pick along with quickened spell and maybe if you play a campaign late enough, you go for heightened spell or empowered spell
Its twinned themetically in an almost medical sense.
You can now have like a 5th levek casting of banishment with an additonal sorcery point turning it to 3 banished targets right? So in that case its more like a triplet spell lol
I do wonder how much of the pushback against this change is caused by the old issue of the elasticity of the adventuring day. If there's a lot of encounters per long rest, twinning a Polymorph spell in 2014 isn't such a big balance issue because the cost is significant. It puts a big brake on all the other cool things you can do otherwise - not only fewer metamagic uses (twin polymorph, throw in a couple of quicked spells, and a heightened spell and you've just blown 11 Sorcery points!!!!), but it also slows down the economy of trading spell slots for SP. Compare that with the 1-2 combat per day model, where you can basically buildcraft around how to create and spend SP for those couple of encounters on a spreadsheet......How many players have really had to ration SP over 5-6 encounters where blowing 4+ at once represents a big expenditure on daily capability (I don't include Haste, that's just completely busted when twinned).
I DO think they could've done more to lessen the impact of the change by working out how to get a few more spells into the list somehow - attack roll spells, perhaps? - because as you pointed out it is nearly an 80% reduction in options to counter the abuse of maybe a dozen problematic and unintended castings. But I do think it's much more aligned to intention, and the cheaper cost means you can really lean into those few spells that do still count - you'll just have to ride out the storm of complaints first to see how well it really lands.
The Hunter's Mark jab 😂
I second the motion for the 8:41 mark.
Twinned spell animate dead sounds nice actually
Banishing 2 targets at level 4 = Twinned
Banishing 2 targets at level 5 = Normal
Sounds more like Upcast (Maybe rename upcast) that basically saves a spell slot of one level higher.
If they had changed the name, then the old Twinned Spell would still have been a selectable meta magic and they clearly wanted to avoid that.
I honestly liked both versions of twinned spell in ua and wish they added both.
Keeping the old version of Twinspell. I don't always take it, but when i did, it filled gaps in the party comp. Twining healing word to keep the party up has saved us from PC deaths more than once. The higher cost more than makes up for the increased versatility.
Also: "Change that adversely effects the way i use this feature" can be described as a 'Nerf' without the person saying it being dishonest, so save the whole " It is not a nerf it is a sidegrade' shtick, for some, this is a downgrade.
Now you can't cast Polymorph on two targets, or Greater Invisibility.
Totally still going to use 2014 thinned spell.
I will miss not being able to twin spells like guiding bolt and and firebolts
Yeah I like things to do what they sound like they do. A lot of DND stuff seems to have forgotten to connect flavor to mechanics.
I think most of the controversy is around the designer's need to keep the name the same. There's really no doubt that the option needed to be toned down: it was basically a no brainier-must-pick-option that was far above it's peers. This lead to nonsensical Sage Advice nerfs like "you can't use it on Dragon's Breath," even though you clearly could according to the written rules.
I get that it is not quite as cool as the initial 2014, as you now have a limited pool of spells it will work on, but it only costs a single SP.
The new *Twinned Spell*, as a concept, works. But its implementation is a let-down - to alleviate the concerns about the 'sidegrade', Jeremy Crawford claimed the scope of spells we could upcast would increase... but the implementation of the revised spells in the 2024 PHB are of pitiable scope.
I can respect that some spells can't be upcast to affect more target because they already have an upcast that affects their potency rather than number of targets. My Divine Sorcerer would be thinking Healing Word or Heal here. Okay... fair.
But there could have been many other spells. Why don't the Firebolt/Ray of Frost/Shocking Grasp not have an upcast option? Where's the upcast Polymorph for affecting multiple targets? Where the upcast Revivify for the Divine Soul? (Not that I think I would need it often, but the possibility was there)
Haste has no upcast option and it could have had. Shield of Faith Death Ward? (the still stupidly weak) Protection from Energy? Greater Restoration? They are many missed opportunities here that could have been assets not only to the Twinning Sorcerer but also the Warlock and other classes willing to use a higher spell slot to cover an entire group with a spell.
Sorry, but I preferred the original version and didn't see a need to nerf it.
So now it is on to finding new rules to exploit so that I can make my character as optimized as I can. That Conjure Minor Elementals spell looks nice.
wotc could've made a new metamagic called double spell. that lets you cast a single target spell that has an attack roll twice but against 2 different targets. yes technically you can still target +1 creature with this "new version" but it's just a free upcasting of a spell not the expectation of the word "twin".
I like that they are just using a pre-existing method for selecting more targets. I think given how cheap it is now it's going to be really really helpful.
Same. I think there’s improved accessibility as a result of its cheapness is being vastly underrated. It’s how also so easy to identify whether it works with TS or not.
This just seems like another nerf with very poor follow through. They change the way Twinned Spell works, but don't review the spells well enough to give more options with the new version. They make Hunter's Mark key to the Ranger class, but don't do enough work on reducing the number of spells on the Ranger list that require concentration. It makes it very hard to appreciate the new adjustments when Wizards doesn't do what is needed to make sure there are still plenty of options that synergize with the changes.
For sure twinned spell is now less appealing
But I think it's fun how they literally inverted the eligible spells: you shouldn't chose to cast it on Bane spell, but now you can, it works on hold person at any level while in the old version it should have worked only on 2nd level version
Yeah, so the spell doesn't "twin" anything, all it does is upcast your spell by 1. As a DM what I would rule for this is that the original Twinned Spell will remain untouched, but have this new version called something different. I would have said Empowered Spell but that's already a thing with more damage added as the effect. I would call this one Overcharged Spell. It fit's thematically with the power fantasy of the effect without literally lying to players about what Twinned Spell actually does.
I cant fire off 2 firebolts anymore at 2 different targets. Lame!
Old twin is dead, but this new thing is great. 1 point for an extra target on some of the best control spells in the game? Yes, please. I'm thinking of it as the single-target equivalent of Careful, which gets you extra targets by safely including allies in a blast. And twin should also work on Command, on the draconic list.
Somehow I always agree with you.
I thought it was restrictive enough by limiting types of spell and didn’t need to be changed
I want to cast firebolt 3 times by using twin spell and quicken spell
ב"ה
I don't mind twin spell being autopick for sorcerers just like I don't mind precision attack being an autopick maneuver for battle masters.
The precision attack maneuver wasn't changed for battlemaster, even though it is an autopick, and I can't see the problem with that.
Wouldn't this also work with Scorching ray? There's no requirement it has to start by targeting only one person, just that when it's upcast it targets an additional creature. Technically you can target an additional creature with the additional rays.
I think there’s an argument to be made but my instinct says that RAW, it does not work. Maybe RAI though. Since the upcast just lets you create additional rays whereas Twinned Spell specifically says “to target another creature”. To me that suggests that the upcasting option must specifically be ones that say they are intended to target another creature.
Again though, I can see this going either way. It is worth noting that letting Scorching Ray work also lets Magic Missile work too. Not saying it’s a problem but just putting it out there!
@InsightCheck Good points! Thank you for your... insight!
The wording on the new twin is interesting, "when you cast a spell... that CAN be cast...to target an additional creature." Not "that IS cast... to target an additional creature." To me the wording is vague enough to be open for interpretation in that regard.
@krezon3138 I fully expect we will see a clarification on this at some point!
Twinned vortex warp (upcast for greater range) is one of the best uses of Twinned spell.
This is not possible with 2024
Looked like a few of the spells on that list the enchanter could do anyway...on a list of very few
I was today years old when I learned that Tasha's hideous laughter is not a sorcerer spell #neverplayedthatclass
You said the new version slows you to break the rules of the game still, but it doesn't. A wizard can cast fly on multiple people with one spell slot. Metamagic is supposed to be about changing the characteristics of a spell surely.
They can’t do it using a 3rd level slot. I suggest you read the pinned comment, I added more context.
It sucks bad. It just isn't worth taking. Even if you had all meta magics you probably would never use this. It's mildly useful for some lvl 2 spells and is okay with banishment. That's really it.
Spells that upscale with additional targets = TWINNED....
2014 Sorc Players: _twin spell really adds to the class and helps put us on par with wizards_
2024 Wizard's Devs: _hold my beer_
uhm... looking at my dnd beyond characters on 2024 rules .... twinned spell is insanely cost effective - two (or more, depending on what slot you use + the effect of twinning) instances of haste - fly hold monster + probably more. hold monster targeting an extra target FOR 1 SORCERY POINT is bonkers!
it's been reigned in but it's not worse unless all you think about is dealing damage... which if you think about it - 2 banished targets allow for precise targeting on those left...
lol yeah I know I’m totally with you haha
"You can spend 1 Sorcery point to increase the spell's effective level by 1" and now we wait for WotC's next supplement to have spells that increase the number of targets for every TWO spell levels when upcast.
This new version of Twinned Spell will not be making it to my table.
Also I let twinned work on the Dragon's Breath spell because the devs are no fun.