What happens if I contribute too much to my Roth IRA?
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- Опубліковано 28 січ 2022
- Summary of the corrective actions you can take when you contribute too much money to your Roth IRA
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DISCLAIMER: This video is only helpful hints and education. It is not specific tax, legal or investment advice. Before considering acting on anything you see in this video, first consult with your tax, legal or investment advisor. While the information expressed in this video is believed to be accurate, neither Andy Panko, CFP®, RICP®, EA nor Tenon Financial LLC make any guarantees to its accuracy.
Thank you for addressing recharacterizing an excess contribution for 2021 as a regular contribution for 2022, that's the answer I was looking for!
Thank you Andy. Helpful video.
I'm glad you like it, thanks!
Thank you for this video.
Thank you for the video!
Thanks Andy!! U always make topics easy to digest. I’m studying for E.A. exam!
Good luck on the exams! I actually found Part 3 to be the most challenging, whereas many people say that's the easiest. I think part of the reason was I put in SO much time studying for Parts 1 and 2 that I was overprepared. Because I consistently read and heard those are the most difficult (especially Part 2). So I comparatively didn't put in as much time studying for Part 3.
I ultimately passed all three on the first try, but I was definitely sweating while taking Part 3 because I wasn't very confident in the answers (whereas I was very confident while taking the tests for Parts 1 and 2).
Moral of the story; don't underestimate Part 3!
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Thanks for the heads up!
Thank you 👍
Option 1
- Simply take contributions and earnings out and pay ordinary income tax on and a penalty (if under 59.5) on earnings ONLY, not your contributions.
Option 2
- recharacterize or convert to traditional IRA. That contribution will be an after-tax contribution.
I started by saying I had a "quick one" I wanted to do with this video. This ended up being not nearly as quick as I thought it was going to be...sorry!
I have a Roth IRA and its a CD I make sure I put the whole amount of money in the 7 months that it matures I just turn 50 so I put $7,000 now.
Hey Andy - QQ. I had my custodian return my 2022 excess contribution + earnings back to me in January 2023 as I realized I wasn't eligible for the contribution. I get I have to pay taxes + penalty, but are these earnings going to get reported in my 2022 return or 2023 (since this is when the cash came back)? My custodian says the 1099-R will be mailed in January 2024 to reflect the return of contribution, which means this may get reported in my 2023 tax return (but it feels like this income should be in 2022).
When you just have to remove the contributions only and not the earnings. What code will you get on your 1099-R and will the full amount be taxed? I got a code J and Free Tax USA says that the whole amount is taxed at 34% (24% + 10% penalty) which is obviously wrong.
Awesome video Andy. In my understanding of the last option, just paying the 6% fee on the contribution, the only tax document this would have would be a 1099r, is this sound correct? The 5329 doesn't apply here?
If there is a 6% penalty, there necessarily needs to be a Form 5329, as that’s the form that determines the penalty
If I take the excess contribution out before my taxes are due, do I still report that I made a contribution for that year? If so, how do I report that the money was returned to me?
Thanks for this very informative video! The situation you describe beginning at the 11:00 mark describes my dilemma. I was not eligible to contribute for tax years 2019, 2020 and 2021, but only realized that was the case earlier this year. I have an extension so I do not have to file until October. I understand what you said about my 2021 contribution, so I will have to pay tax on my earnings. As for 2020 and 2019, do I have to file a separate 5329 for both years, or do I can I account for both years on a single 5329 form?
Did you just have to file the 5329 or did you amend your entire return?
Thank you for the video Andy! Quick question, so if I decided to withdraw my excess contribution (in my case I took a loss without any additional earnings from my excess contribution) when will I be getting a 1099-R form to report? Also while filing my taxes currently, would I report that I contributed excess or the updated contribution total after withdrawing the excess?
I believe you'll get the 1099-R for the year in which you actually took the excess out (i.e. it will be a 2022 1099-R that you receive in early 2023). But when doing your 2021 return, assuming you take the 2021 excess out prior to filing your return, you will avoid having to report the excess contribution on your 2021 return.
Can you take the excess in the IRA and deposit it in a taxable account?
What if you contributed then rolled it over to another custodian, make another contribution then realize your income is going to be too high ? (note Before taxes are due) My assumption is that I would have to send money back to the first custodian and have them recharacterize it into a traditional (then backdoor into roth) and then send to the 2nd custodian, repeat process with them on 2nd contribution. Anyone thoughts?
@9:22 do you have to amend your full return? I thought i was reading in the instructions that you can juts fill ou the form 5239, with a check. Is that true?
Excellent information Andy. Question, does the 5 year rule apply to the return of excess contributions? 2nd question, if I’m 72 can I do a recharacterization of an excess funds removal from my Roth IRA back into my Traditional IRA?
The removal of the amount of the excess contribution is not taxed or penalized regardless of age or any special holding periods. But the earnings that come out along with the excess contribution are always taxed as ordinary income regardless.
No, I don’t think you can put it back. Because the whole original point was that money was supposed to be a distribution from your IRA as part of an RMD. And you can’t take an RMD and put it back in.
Context: I already filed my taxes yesterday for 2021. I made too much. I need/want to take that money out and close the account all together. Question: it wouldn't matter WHEN I liquidate the account (one day after filing or sometime between this year(2022)), right? I will have to file an amendment for this liquidation and pay the penalties on whatever gains I may from the account.
Did you pay the 6% excise tax/penalty on the amount of the excess contribution in your 2021 return?
Great video/information. I am in the process of removing an excess contribution to my Roth and I received a W-4R and am somewhat unsure what to do. Do you have a video on this?
Sorry, but I've never heard of a W-4R. Nor could I find anything on it when I tried to Google it. Are you sure that's the correct form number?
@@RetirementPlanningEducation my account with Charles Schwab and Robinhood is having me fill out these forms as well W-4r. It's a new form IRS has implemented early 2022. There's another similar form as well it's
W-4p
Thank you so very much for making this video Andy. I am one of the folks you mentioned at 2:28 of video and went over the 144k for 2022. Is there a way that I can work with Fidelity to roll over roth ira contributions to business roth ira?
Hi. There unfortunately isn't currently any sort of Roth business IRA available. If you're self-employed, you could perhaps open a solo 401(k) with a Roth option, and then contribute to that (or see if Fidelity can directly transfer the Roth IRA contribution to the solo 401(k) instead). But chances are, if you overcontributed, the only options are to 1) remove it under the "removal of excess contribution" process at Fidelity or 2) have it "recharacterized" to instead be treated as a contribution to a traditional IRA (where you won't be able to take a deduction for the contribution since your income is too high
Great Video! Do you know if Vanguard calculates the NIAC for you so I would just put in my excess contributions (say its the limit) of 6k? I also have my roth dividends reinvest are those considered contributions? Thanks!
I’m not sure about vanguard. Some custodians do it for you, others make you do it yourself.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation thanks! Not talking about vanguard how do I treat divedends that are reinvested is that part of my "contribution" or just the money I explicitly and contributing is a contribution? THanks again!
@@wattsobx dividends would be part of earnings on your contribution
When you receive a 1099-R in the $1000 LOSS example, I understand there are no gains to pay taxes, but what about the 10% penalty? Would you still have to pay a 10% penalty on the $5000 withdraw, even though it resulted in a $1000 loss for the year? Or are you "clean" and you are only out the $1000 loss?
Honestly, I haven't actually seen this scenario where there has been a loss. But I'm fairly certain there wouldn't be a penalty on what you get out. The gist is you're not taking out more than what you put in. And since what you put in was already taxed, there's no tax (or penalty) to take it out. Just like how you can always take out the amount of your Roth IRA contributions at any time and any age with no restrictions, tax or penalty...because the money was already taxed.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Thanks!
Hello, thanks for the video. I'm doing my taxes and contributed the max amount for my Roth IRA.... I didn't realize that I wasn't able to contribute more than my earned income. Turbo tax is saying I can pay a penalty of 6% as an option for each year I over contributed. Is this a good option as well? Or simply take the over contributed amount out.... what's the best?
I can't say what the best option is for you and your circumstances, but you have a few different choices:
If you know you'll have enough earned income in 2022 to be able to make a 2022 Roth IRA contribution, you can leave the excess in there, pay the 6% penalty on it on your 2021 tax return, and then apply the excess contribution toward your 2022 contribution.
Or, if you won't be eligible to contribute that much in 2022, you'll have to take out the excess contribution and earnings attributable to it. Ask your Roth IRA custodian how to go about doing that; it should be a fairly straightforward process for them.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation you are AWESOME... thanks for the clear tips and options! And you got back to me so quickly. Thank you 🙏
I had a significant increase in earmings this year ('22) due to a promotion. I over contributed to my 401K by about 1500.00. Can i withdraw that and start a roth with it and then have a 401k and a roth at the same time going fwd ?
Hi Dan. The 401(k) excess contribution and ability to contribute to a Roth IRA are two separate and unrelated things. Regarding the excess 401(k) contribution, that's something you'll have to square away with your employer. And then regarding the ability to contribute to a Roth IRA, that depends on your total income. Here's a summary of those limits: www.schwab.com/ira/roth-ira/contribution-limits
Thank you for the great video! I am in this situation exact situation now and working to fix my Roth over contribution. If I recharacterize the money to a regular IRA, aren't I losing out on the tax money I already paid on it, just to pay taxes on it again later when I withdraw in retirement? Seems like it would be better to take my 10% penalty lump on the earnings, but get my original investment back whole. Or do I understand this wrong and the recharaceorized money would end up coming out of my earned income so I would get the tax break on it up front.
No, the amount of your initial contribution will be "after tax" inside the traditional IRA. As such, whenever you eventually take that out, it won't be taxed again. But any earnings on that contribution will be fully taxable.
And you'll have to do a Form 8606 with your tax return every year going forward. That form is what tracks how much after-tax money is in your traditional IRA. So that whenever you eventually take a distribution or do a Roth conversion, the Form 8606 will calculate how much of the distribution or conversion is taxable vs not.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Super helpful, thank you for helping me understand this!!
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Say im doing this at vanguard do they provide the 8606? I do my own taxes what do I need to state to prompt fillingout the 8606 in things like turbo tax?
@@wattsobx No, 8606 is something you have to fill out as part of your tax return. I’m not sure what the steps are in TurboTax to do though, sorry! I assume they have some kind of help chat or phone number you can ask.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Do you get a form like a 1099-DIV that has the info i use to fill out the 8606?
Andy I own stock in my Roth IRA and I have over contributed. I know how many dollars I am over my legal limit, can I move stock to a traditional IRA that without selling for cash. I would like to keep what I own and just move it?
You contributed more than $7k annual limit? Or did you contribute no more than $7k, but your income phased you out such that you personally weren't eligible to contribute as much as you did?
Hi Andy, My custodian sent me an excess IRA contribution withdrawal form to fill out. I have an excess of small amount $150 that I need to take out from IRA according to turbo tax. Do I also need submit 5329 form along with my filling this year for 2021? Or I just need to wait for the 1099r for the 2022 filing for next year 2023 tax season. Thank you in advance
If the $150 excess was an excess contribution for 2021 and you take it out before filing your return, no, you don't have to do 5329 because you're taking out the excess before the deadline for the year
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Awesome thanks for your quick response.
thank you for the video! i got married this year and we both contributed the full 6k to Roth IRA's but now with our combined income we've maxed out and actually cant contribute anything to Roth's anymore. Charles Schwab sent me the recharacterization/ removal form but my question is logistically, in order to move that money because it's not all cash, its invested, do the investments in my Roth have to be sold to convert to cash- and if so, do I have to sell them or Charles Schwab sells them? Or do the actual investments (stocks) just get moved to another account based on the total amount that the bank calculates (excess and earnings)?
thanks so much if you're able to help!!
Check with Schwab, as they should be able to move securities “in-kind.” If not, you call, move cash and reinvest
@@RetirementPlanningEducation wow thank you for the quick reply! Also two more Q’s do you still pay a 10% penalty if the money hasn’t been in the Roth for 5yrs when recharacterizing or is this not considered a withdrawal because it’s being moved to a traditional IRA? Secondly, what then would i report now when filing my 2022 taxes? Do I now report this amount that got recharacterized as a 2022 contribution to my traditional IRA? Thank you!!
@@erceleste1 No, the 10% penalty doesn't apply if you recharacterize it (because it's not considered a distribution per se)
Yes, if you're recharacterizing your 2022 Roth IRA contribution to instead be a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution, you'll have to report that on Form 8606 of your 2022 tax return. Form 8606 is what tracks "basis," or non-deductible contributions to traditional IRAs
Here's my problem.. I unexpectedly sold a rental property which put me over the income limit for a Roth this year. I followed directions from M1 finance to remove that money from my Roth to a Traditional IRA, but I don't think I did it correctly. How do you do it and can I change the amount (i think i moved too much to my traditional ira)?
Until you're done with your tax return (but before you actually file it), you won't know exactly how much contribution, if any, you were eligible to make. But let's assume you know you weren't eligible for ANY contribution. Basically you'd have to tell M1 that you want to recharacterize your entire Roth IRA contribution to a traditional IRA contribution. They should take care of the rest (and should do it accurately). If you give them bad info and tell them to recharacterize more or less than you're supposed to, that's unfortunately on you. But if you give them the right amount to recharacterize and they mess it up, they will need to fix it.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Thanks, but that’s exactly what I said my problem was and I was trying to see if I could still fix the problem. I already went thru the process with M1 and they sent me a complicated formula to determine how much I moved to the traditional, and I don’t think the number could be correct.
@@garrett7101 I'm not sure; I haven't come across that before. Maybe call them and ask if they have a process to undo the amount of the recharacterization that was too much???
Hello Andy, I'm over 50, married, (wife unemployed) and I make the max contribution to my employer's 401k plan, and another $7000 to a traditional IRA. Question - can I open a roth ira and contribute another $7000? Thanks in advance for your help.
Hi. Unfortunately no. The $7,000 limit is combined between your traditional and/or Roth IRAs. If you already put $7,000 into your traditional IRA, you already used up that shared $7,000 limit.
Thank You so much for the video. I hope you can help me out with my situation here.
I contributed in Roth IRA last year for 2021 ($6K). Now I filed taxes couple of days back and my contribution was excess as my income came out higher (due to capital gains) than allowable limit. So, I am in very uncomfortable situation. I don't want to mess my tax but want to fix this Roth IRA contribution that I made. I also invested and it now dropped to $5K. So, my question for you: (1) Can I sell those stocks worth $6K cost basis with $1K loss (on the last day) and transfer to my checking account and leave as if nothing happened? I'm not sure if T+2 rule applies and whether I will be able to transfer remaining $5k on Monday (last day of tax filing for 2021). (2) If I want to move that to traditional IRA, when I do tax amendment, how much will it count ? $5K (current amount after stock loss) or $6K (originally contributed). Appreciate your help. Thank you.
If you do the removal of excess, you'd ultimately only have to take out $5k. Because you'd have to take out the $6k plus (or minus) any gains (or losses) that $6k made.
If you do a recharacterization to a traditional IRA, it would be $5k that would be recharacterized.
But if you already filed your 2021 return, it's too late to do either without the penalty. Or at least, you'd have to do an amendment before the end of Monday. Did you pay the excess penalty (via Form 5329) on your 2021 return? If
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Thank you for taking time to respond. So far nothing has changed as I did not have much time to plan to fix this on/before Monday. So, here is my situation: 2021 roth IRA contribution was $6K which now dropped to $5K. Tax filed and found out that I am no longer eligible to contribute (more than $208K income 2021). 2021 tax was filed and nothing was reported. What would be easiest way to fix this? If I take excess contribution $6K (now $5K) to checking and move on (no tax amendment)? If I want to wait for few month assuming my investment would break even to $6K and then withdraw would be good idea as well? Thank You.
@@SecretInventor At this point, since it's past April 18, you can no longer recharacterize it. That option is off the table at this point.
You have two options:
1) if you think your income will be low enough in 2022 that you will qualify to be able to make a full contribution this year, you can simply leave the 2021 excess in and apply it toward your 2022 contribution.
2) if you think your income will continue to be high and you won't be eligible to contribute this year, take out the excess before December 31. Here's where it's a bit gray though; if you would have taken out the $6k excess before filing your return, you would have had to taken out the gains (or losses) attributable to it, too. Which you said was $1k or losses, so you would have had to taken out $5k. But since you missed the April 18th deadline, the IRS hasn't given formal guidance for whether or not you need to take out the earnings (or losses) at this point. Most custodians will say you needs to take out exactly $6k at this point; no more, no less. So don't be surprised if you call up your Roth IRA custodian and say you need to take out a 2021 excess contribution and they say you need to take out exactly $6k.
Separately, regardless which option you choose, you need to pay a $360 excise tax/penalty as part of your 2021 return because you didn't take out the $6k excess before April 18. The penalty is 6% on the amount of the excess (hence $360). There are two ways to pay that tax; 1) file an amended 2021 return and do a Form 5329 as part of the amendment (that's the form that calculates the excess contribution excise tax) or 2) do nothing and assume the IRS will eventually catch it and send you a bill for the $360.
It's up to you what you choose to do, but it may be safer to just do the amendment. Otherwise, if you wait for the IRS to do it, they may wait a few years to notify you and then also hit you with a late payment penalty (because it will be a few years old) in addition to the $360.
@@RetirementPlanningEducation This is much clearer than anything else. Thank you for taking time to respond to my question/situation.
So the 10% penalty is only on the earnings or on my contribution as well?
The 10% is only on the removal of the earnings, not the contribution amount itself
@@RetirementPlanningEducation last year i had no income and didnt file taxes for 2023 so far ( i am expat living in Dubai) but I contributed 6500 on JUly 31 2023, but now that I found out i was not supposed to contribute bc i had very less earned income (less than taxable threashold).. i have reversed it on MAY 8th 2024. WIll I get penalty or not? do I need to file 5329 form along with my tax filing?
If I overcontributed in 2021 and opt to recharacterize now and then proceed to convert that amount plus another $6k backdoor contribution for '22, is there anything I should be aware of in the conversion step?
Are you aware of the pro rata rule??? Yes, you're able to convert it all. But depending how much pre-tax money you already have in your IRA(s), most or all of the conversion may be taxable (even though you didn't deduct the contributions in the first place).
@@RetirementPlanningEducation Yup. I'd track the basis after paying taxes on the growth attributable and then only further growth above that basis would be taxable upon rolling it over, right?
I'll, of course ensure I don't have any other (non-Roth) IRA assets at the end of the year (by rolling them into my 401K).
@@mattfrei27 Yes, that's where the pro rata rule would get you; if you had pre-tax money in ANY IRA as of Dec 31 of the year of the conversion. If you roll that pre-tax IRA money into a 401(k) before Dec 31, it won't count in the pro rata calculation (take a look at Form 8606 to see the mechanics of how it all works)
@@RetirementPlanningEducation so if i do not have any iras aside from the roth ira (which was funded with after tax money) im ok to recharacterize and do the backdoor method?
Hi, I have been searching the Internet high and low to make sure I am going to do this right.
Every year, on January 1, I contribute max contributions to my Roth IRA as I was never in danger of going over the income limit.
This year, due to unforseen circumstances, I am sure I am over the income limit to even contribute a single dollar, meaning I am only eligible to contribute $0.
I am looking for the correct way to handle recharacterizing my $6k.
I have a workplace 401k, a traditional IRA (401k from 2 previous employers ago that I transferred to a traditional IRA instead of transferring to current employer 401k), and a Roth IRA.
Since I am wanting to recharacterize my excess Roth IRA contributions, do I need to empty out my traditional IRA into my current employer's 401k? Also since the economy is down, I wouldn't have made money on my excess contributions this moment in time, so does the pro rata rule still apply when I convert the money back into my Roth IRA?
Yes you can still recharacterize the excess 2021 Roth IRA contribution to instead be treated as a 2021 traditional IRA contribution (specifically one that is/was non-deductible since your income was too high to take the deduction for it). You have until October 15 to do the recharacterization. Reach out to your Roth IRA custodian to ask them the process for doing it.
As far as how much to actually move to your IRA, it will ultimately be something less than $6k since there have since been losses on the initial $6k contribution. There is a formula called "Net income attributable" you'll have to do to figure out how much that $6k is now worth; that's how much will need to actually be moved from your Roth IRA to your traditional IRA. Some custodians will do that calculation for you, others will tell you you're own your own to do it.
As far as converting the money back to your Roth IRA after you recharacterize it, yes, it will be subject to the pro rata rule. And since it sounds like you already have a lot of pre-tax money in your IRA(s) from your previous 401(k)-to-IRA rollovers, the majority of that conversion will be taxable. So you can simply leave the recharacterized money in your traditional IRA and not convert it back to the Roth. Or, yes, if your current 401(k) allows it, one option would be to roll current IRA balances back into your 401(k). And then recharacterize and convert the money to the Roth. The path of least resistance may just be to leave the recharacterization in your traditional IRA.
And you'll have to do a Form 8606 for 2021 to show what will be a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution (after the recharacterization). And if that money stays in your traditional IRA, you'll have to file the Form 8606 with your tax return every year going forward until your IRA(s) are emptied out.
Thank you so much! Seems like the path of least resistance is to just take out that money and put in a brokerage account since I'm already at a net negative. Doing this way would require zero paper work?
@@smirkit there will still be paperwork unfortunately. You still need to figure out the net income attributable. And do whatever excess removal form the custodian requires. And you’ll get a 1099-R for it at tax time.
Defeats the purpose of saving for retirement, why do videos of financial advisors never explain the reasons for these caps on 401ks ridiculous
I over funded 2 roth iras... I thought you could fund 6k into each account... oooops! 😬
The stock market is still one of the most potential places to invest your money, The secrets to making a million is saving for a better investment.. I always tell myself you don’t need that new Bentley or that vacation in Hawaii just yet and that mindset helps me make more money investing. For example last year I invested precisely 84k grand in stocks and index funds with the help of my advisor Kate Weller and made 246k, I put it back and traded with her again and now I rounded up the year with over a million. Hoping to get to over 2 million in my portfolio in 6 months time..
I contributed more to my Roth IRA than earned income for many years. I am estimating that I will probably lose about
$15,000 to $20,0000 in excess contribution penalties.
Opening up a Roth IRA is going to be my worst
Financial mistake ever.