Should Every Interstellar Warship Carry Space Marines? | Templin Dispatch
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Within any potential interstellar conflict, does it make sense for every ship, from Corvettes and Frigates to Battleships and Carriers to serve as troop transports?
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Makes sense
I understand your point. But...what do you do if a big battlelship surrender before a battle?. You need a litle number (or not litle) to secure the ship. And a litle number of special forces can be interesting for planetary raids. Not everithing can be done with an orbital bombardement.
Sorry for my bad english, I and my cell are from spain. And my corrector fight against me. Thanks for your patience and atention.
Sheeeeesh
When I think of the question I'm not thinking of tanks and a entire regiment of marines, I'm thinking of small tactical squads for boarding and anti piracy missions on all ships, more like in the expanse with boarding assault pods and such.
Hope you do a video on land warfare!
"Should every interstellar warship carry Space Marines?"
Administratum: get a load of this servitor
mind wipe it for heresy.
In the 40k universe, Imperial Navy warships do not carry Imperial Guard forces. They're not allowed to; the Navy do not have ground forces, and the Guard don't fight in space. Separation of powers. Imperial Guard Regiments are carried by lightly-armed transports under escort from proper warships.
The Adeptus Astartes are a special exception here. Their ships are designed to carry Astartes to a planet, punching through blockades and defences, and deploy them hard and fast into battle. They have shorter-ranged guns than Navy warships, specialised orbital bombardment cannons, and their carriers lack bombers in favour of assault craft like Thunderhawk gunships.
Chaos Marine forces, being based on the integrated Legion fleets of old, mix Astartes, troops, and Naval power, but even they rely on dedicated transports for most large ground assaults.
FOR THE EMPERAAAHHH
@@95DarkFire They do have armsmen, but they are there *only* for boarding actions and internal ship security; they do not engage in any other combat operations outside of those specific roles. The video focuses entirely upon Space Marines as "troops for planetary assault", Imperial Navy Armsmen do not fit that definition.
cringe
Having boarding capability means that a patrol warship has more options than shoot to kill, shoot to cripple. It allows them to conduct inspections, investigate possible salvage, derelict ships. Also, having marines cross-trained for damage control makes a lot of sense, there is a lot of crossover in skills in operating in a vacuum, clearing damaged bulkheads, rewiring power et...
One major factor in this debate would be how big the operational space is and how independent the ships are. If the ships only ever operate in fleet groups or in fairly "civilized" space, then keeping the armor on dedicated assault ships is fine. But if singular ships are expected to make long-haul missions by themselves (or with a few picket ships), a la the original definition of a "cruiser" in the Age of Sail, then the presence of heavy weapons and infantry trained for planetside actions makes a lot of sense. If the ship uncovers a serious situation and reinforcements are days or longer away, then the ability to take effective ground action, even on a small scale, could have a major impact.
You should be careful, of course. Every tank you put on a frontline warship that is more likely to be sunk than deploy them is probably a waste of money. Additionally, it would be helpful if the troops had the ability to perform regular duties on the ship for the 90% of circumstances when they are not needed. Perhaps that could be a reason to have distinct "Army" and "Marines" branches - Marines are trained to be part-time sailors and small-scale combatants while Army soldiers are purely ground-focused and better prepared for large battles with heavy vehicle usage.
In conflicts throughout history, warships were often used to transport troops and supplies. Granted, not nearly as much as a dedicated troop transport, but the benefit of being aboard an armed and armoured warship compared to a troop transport would be undeniable if the convoy was discovered and attacked by the enemy.
In an interstellar navy, it would be advantageous if a fleet of warships was able to immediately conduct planetary landings and establish a beachhead upon routing an enemy's defensive fleet. It would enable the attacker to retain the initiative and maintain the pace of operations without having to wait for dedicated troop transports to move in from reserve.
In short, warships would ideally be able to carry *some* amount of troops and supplies, but not at the expense of its primary role.
Boarding actions would be incredibly useful for capturing specifics ships with specific technology between major powers. Otherwise, blow each other to space debris. For pirates and criminals, an intact ship is a good ship because the goods can be siezed, the crew held for ransom, or the ship can be outright captured and commandeered.
I think it's a question of economic strength of the faction. Acquiring ships/new technology/ weapons/ resource etc via boarding action would be a viable tactic for a faction with less ability to craft ships initially. If you can just steal their ships and use them against them at the cost of a few thousand renewable lives over all then that seems like a option that you would see in a lower economic/ scientifically advanced faction. McGuffinite alloy may not exist where you are at but you do have a lot of angry marines who will get it for you from the first ship they see.
The Autumn was chosen for a number of reasons. While, yes, carriers and heavy cruisers were few and far between and already assigned to the defense of worlds like Reach... The Halcyon class brought a few unique things to the table that they did not. First and foremost being that while the ship class was laughably slow and under armed for a vessel of its modern classification the Halcyon class cruisers were known for being borderline indestructible, able to continue operation with most of their interior compartments vented into vacuum. Heavy structural reinforcements and crossbracings throughout the hull that eventually killed the design due to cost and expense played into the Halcyon's favor in Operation RED FLAG because survivability was what it needed - the goal was to incapacitate and board a Covenant ship, not kill it outright, and with that came far greater risk.
Following a number of extensive refits, overhauls, re-armament and additional modifications and you got a ship that was able to not only go toe to toe with more technologically advanced Covenant ships but best them outright in combat, something even the newest UNSC cruisers of more conventional design struggled with. The use of many of these experimental technologies would later go on to inform the post-war Autumn class heavy cruisers that would simply convert many mothballed Halcyon hulls rather than building the ships from scratch.
On a semi-related note, most of these newer cruisers did not carry much in terms of conventional armor or mechanized infantry in the post-war era - or even standard Marines, for that matter. Rather most were instead given large ODST complements, able to be rapidly deployed not for planetary invasions but specifically trained for boarding actions, surgical strikes against planetary targets or to pave the way for more conventional forces as shock troopers behind enemy lines similar to WWII era paratroopers.
For the Pillar of Autumn it wasn't going to try and invade a planet in the middle of Covenant Space. The mission was to abduct a Prophet hopefully with a little bit of finesse and then quickly get out of there. A dedicated troop transport may not be able to fight its way out of Dodge after earning the ire of the Covenant and if the UNSC was able to mount an actual invasion of Covenant space with a whole Fleet they would have done that already.
The Pillar of Automn was actually refit for this special mission with some brand new techs from the UNSC. This is in part why their "warp" engine made them discover the ring by accident when using it for the first time. I don't think there is much canon info on "how" their forces were supposed to abduct a Prophet but they were surely not planning on taking control of an entire world. That's actually why they somehow failed on Halo and were pushed into hiding and practicing guerilla warfare... until they discovered the flood by doing so.
The reason why they picked such a small and outdated ship for such a mission was because it's hull had a more resilient structure than newer ships so I guess it was cheaper to add new gadgets to it than rebuilding a newer ship. A second reason to it was despair. The war raged for like 25 years at that point and humanity lost every planet that was invaded by the convenant. This commando action was a desperate move to negociate some sort of a peace with the convenant. At that time, the UNSC Infinity was still under construction but not to wage war but as an escape boat for humanity to resettle far from the convenants. The way the books explain it, the Pillar of Automn's mission was not that well planned. Unfortunately, this was cancelled because of the attack on Reach and the ship fleeing in haste with a blind jump using it's new engines... only to discover the first ring by accident, giving us the first Halo trilogy.
ok i see your point, not every ship is the pillar of autum, with a fully equiped army on board
still i'm putting marrines 5-10, ect.. , as needed and relevant, on just about every ship,
because it's not raddar operator macgylycutty who is going to investigate the ""abandoned"" colony
tho i might send chef Ryback ^^
Perhaps for captured surrendered enemy ships, there should be a force to hold it
Shipboard Marine detachments would not consist of large armor formations, they would be more like the marines in Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica.
Consider any navy in the real world. You'll notice that nearly every ship of every size has a few squads of marines and at least one helicopter to deploy them with. The roles of the MARDET include shipboard security, defending the ship, boarding ships for cargo inspections or counter-piracy operations, and every other conceivable assignment for a small team of people who know how to use rifles.
So yes, every ship in a space navy would carry marines. Whether they're part of an away team, searching for contraband, or contributing to a larger operation, there are plenty of reasons for naval vessels to carry marines.
Regiment? No, of course not. Too many people. Couple squads? A company size element? Sure...depending on the size of ship. But yes, regimental and larger formations should probably retain their own transports...
So i thought they were talking about Adeptus Astartes Space Marines at first.
i personally dont believe in ships full of empty space just to store things unless they're a cargo freighter or a troop transport. So in my opinion, unlikely combat vessels should have boarding actions or whatever. Not to mention the trouble of having boarders delivered to an enemy vessel, it's just a free target unless you have teleporting boarders, but they need means to do it accurately, which defeats the purpose of boarding more if you can teleport bombs in. Oh, and I also do not believe in starfighters, mainly because they fly in so close and they're just slow, oversized missiles that can be shot down with point defense lasers or other close range defense systems. you dont see starfighters flying as fast as the projectiles or energy beams themselves, very slow and trivial and thus can be easily intercepted. also, starfighters would have painfully diminished payloads compared to ship weapons, so you got a trained pilot, an expensive mini ship with life support and all the fancy features, with gimped weapons that wont do much while also being instantly shot down by more than sufficient anti projectile defenses.
4:31 its pronounced both(like bath with an o) a-wii
Should you have infantry on your ship. You weigh the utility of the infantry against the troop lives, cost, physical space and opportunity cost of having another system there.
These rules will hold for most situations as long as you adjust for the specific universe.
Is boarding a valid strategy in your universe. You must weigh the utility of having infantry on the enemy ship. If you want to destroy the ship then weapons fire is a more valid solution. If you wish to capture the ship then that calculation changes. However, if your universe for example, "space engineers the game" has large ships, poor firepower and poor point defense. Then ship boarding becomes an optimal strategy. Technology such as being able to teleport past an enemy's shields would also change the weight of calculations, but again in most cases teleporting a bomb onto the ship would a better solution.
Two factors of note are the ship's mission. Is it likely to need infantry at any point. One doing patrols around a world that may need to stop conflicts on said world would do well to have them.
The other being how much risk does not having such infantry on board entail. If you are a dreadnaught class battlecruser completely outclassing everything else. Is the most likely method of defeat an attack from the inside. Will the infantry offer a higher level of defensive strength than another cannon, or another fighter.
Due to definition terms [and a certain fandom's use of Space Marine] the question really should be "Should they carry ground forces?"
My issue is with the modern real world "marines", who I view as superfluous. They began as military personnel on requisitioned/commandeered merchant vessels to serve as anti-piracy and boarding forces. In Sci-fi [and an efficient IRL military] that role is better served by naval personnel, specifically security officers. A modern [or sci-fi] military only needs 3 branches, based around the form of combat they wage:
Army/Ground Forces: Do you fight on solid ground [or operate a vehicle that does]? then you are Army.
Air Force/Aerospace Divisions: Do you operate or service a vehicle that operates in atmosphere or low orbit and relies on the forces of lift, drag and thrust [does it fly], but needs ground support or a larger support vessel to refit and repair? Air Force.
Navy: Do you operate or service a vessel that operates under the forces of buoyancy, pressure, and vacuum [does it float and/or have airlocks], that can support smaller craft and operate without land support? Navy.
Starfighters, shuttles, and drop-ships, since they operate in atmosphere and require support craft or bases are Air Force assets that launch either from Army bases or Navy vessels.
Paratroopers are Army infantry that deploy from Air Force assets.
Frogmen/Seals are Army assets that deploy from Navy assets.
Marines are Army infantry stationed on Navy assets.
For Starships, it boils down to what you call the operator/commander and control center. Does it have a pilot, navigator and/or gunner/bombardier in a cockpit? Airforce. Does it have a helmsman and tactical officer commanded by a captain? Navy.
I'm torn as to whether space stations [military ones] should be Navy or Army, since they are large and stationary enough to be considered "land" and can service and construct naval assets. I lean towards Army, since in combat stations function more like ground bases that starships.
This is so a military doesn't need 4 different fighter pilot schools. EX: the US Army, Navy, Air Force , and Marines all have their own distinct pilots and re-fueling systems. The Army and Airforce use a system where a nozzle is guided with hydraulics and airfoils by a tanker operator into a receiver port on the Fighter to refuel mid-flight while the Navy and Marines use a system where a funnel tipped hose id trailed behind the tanker and the probe is on the plane, aligned by the pilot's flying [a more reliable system]. This means during joint operations 2 different types of tankers have to fly: one for the Air Force F-14/15/16s [who share tech and regulations with their parent organization the Army] and one for the Marine F-18s and Harriers [who share with their parents, the Navy].
For the actual question... It depends on the focus of the franchise. 40k, Battletech, Halo, and to a lesser extent Star Wars are focused [militarily] on ground-combat, so every capitol ship having a deployable ground force of some kind makes sense.
In 40k for instance, there are entire chapters of Astartes [Space Marines, in caps] that are fleet-based, with their initiates, veterans and specialists [around 1/2 the chapter, 300-500 super-soldiers] in the chapter's Battle Barge [an 8-12km long dreadnought that serves as flagship and homeworld] and the rest in company-sized [100 marines] detachments on missions in Strike Cruisers [3-5km long battleships that contain everything a company of Astartes need in battle, including vehicles, artillery and landing craft].
On the other hand, franchises like Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek, Andromeda, Babylon-5, Stargate and again, to a lesser extent Star Wars [the only balanced military sci-fi I am familiar with] who have a focus on space combat, with small strike-team/hero mission stuff, it does not make sense to carry D-Day in every vessel.
As alluded, Star Wars strikes a good balance with some dedicated starfighter carriers [like the Venator-class Star Destroyer with its separate flight control bridge], troop transports [like its sister ship, the Acclimator, which is a star destroyer that lands to disgorge an entire Clone legion] and balanced vessels [like the classic Imperial class Star Destroyer, which carries a wing of starfighters and a regiment of Stormtroopers, with their vehicles and dropships]
What is that battle scene around 0:47 from? Halo?
Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
So, for boarding actions, security, and even small scale invasions of planet, planetoid, moon, or asteroid based facilities, you don't need dedicated marines on board a vessel. All you really need are weapons, preferably in secure locker's/armory's. Training how to use those weapons and combat inside ship's can easily be incorporated into the standard training of the Crew, and whilst a dedicated marine will 9/10 beat someone with basic training in such combat, when your Entire crew of 10000 men (and women) have weapons and training, you'd need a few hundred dedicated marines to have a chance of successfully taking the ship. That was the principal in naval combat for hundreds of year's, and even during the age of sail, marines were mostly there for the discpline, both In defense and in taking boarding action's.
When taking on small scale invasions, something not worth/not having the time for a dedicated troop Carrier, just taking a small Facility or base, again just your standard crew plus weapons will be enough. Perhaps having some form of body armour is warranted, but depending on the design that can double as protective suit's for repairs on the outside of the ship, or hazardous locations inside the ship. It's unlikely the enemy you find will be any better trained or equiped than you in such actions, and if they are, it's probably a location worth a dedicated troop Carrier.
So yeah, no need for dedicated marines on all ships. We have Marines at home.
I mean, for security, I'd say yes. Not every ship is going to engage in boarding actions but I think they should still have a detachment for shipboard security.
Edit: in the end, really, it all depends on the universe.
Agreed. I think when they talk about space marines it is more of frontline units or at least units equiped and trained for frontline combat then ship security. To take a good shot of what the question means is. Should all ships in the US navy carry SEALs? Since all ships in the US navy has their own security and a few carry SOP
I would take insperation of Expanse. The MCRN all have their own security while only few types of ships carry space marines. Destroyers and such that are assigned for anti piracy operations. While other ships usually don't carry them since they are made for space combat.
@@mikkel066h I think in Halo, the UNSC Marine Corps serves a dual purpose as shipboard security.
@@owenparris7490 Agreed.
In case one of ships own crewmembers decides to have a fit about something or he decides to beat seven shades of shit out of another crewmember for any of variety of reasons, it would be very comforting to know you don't have to involve your deep knowledge of physics and noodly arms to wrestle this lunatic. Instead you have the Marines there to pacify and restrain him. People who have been trained with use of force are less likely to kill or seriously injure a rampant sailor or such than those who lack the training.
Training all of your crew to deal with aggressive individual takes assload of time and they're still going to suck at it. Better to have couple professionals on board.
@@owenparris7490 You'd think this would make sense, for consistency in training quality, equiptment and general experience of service personelle, at least in peacetime. I could see every marine in the MCRN serving a tour on a ship, station and planetside as standard
Yeah, a platoon should be sufficient for shipboard security on small-medium craft and maybe a company or two for capital ships, but if you have robust training infrastructure for marines but not for dedicated naval security it makes perfect sense to garrison a small unit for security (most the time) and defending against boarding actions or performing light planetary scouting on rare occasions. Leave full-scale invasions, armored vehicles, and offensive boarding actions to dedicated craft, but all a marine infantry detachment costs is supplies and bunkspace of basically the same kinds you’re already using for crewmen, so if your ship can spare it, why not?
Whenever I watch Star Trek, I can't help but wish they had some Marines aboard. I mean they get boarded and beam aboard other ships a lot.
Later Enterprise seasons had the Mako teams, but I think they were intended to be the precursors to ship's security. Despite the fact that they were obviously "Space Marines"
Not a trekkie, so I'm probably saying BS, but aint that the point of the Redshirts, and basically why they always seem to die?
But they can just beam enemies into outer space too
@@Lezarddd Red shirts are security in the original series and yellow shirts are security in all other series. But they have no armour, normally don't even carry phaser rifles just the stupid little phaser things and for some reason never bothered developing personal shields, a portable shield/forcefield generator or an armoured vehicle and yes I know Starfleet like to be diplomatic but the amount of times they lose power to half their systems are boarded or encounter new hostile species they should really start arming themselves properly.
@@michaelalangordon6120 "I'm more than willing to give peace a chance but I'm going to cover you just in case it doesn't work"
I mean who doesn’t like the thrill of GLORIOUS BOARDING ACTION ?
K'plah!
Or planetary invasion in primitive or inhabitance planet
Probably those who died to boarding target defensive fire?
The bolter fodder sent ahead of the Chaos Astartes.
BEAT THE SAND! IT MAY KNOW SOMETHING!
"Should Every Interstellar Warship Carry Space Marines?"
Me: Do you have that much Space Marines?
If those Space Marine is a robotic soldiers then maybe----
The emperor protects !
My thoughts exactly. Plus, you'd then need the additional food and quarters needed for what are in most cases extra personnel who will serve little to no role in ship-to-ship combat.
Clearly you've never heard of the Black Templar
@@Bjorn308 you know why a marine sergeant is called gunny?
“And just because tanks were useful in a space battle once.”
Excuse me good sir, Anakin used tanks in space a grand total of two times!
There was also that time during the battle of Coruscant in which a SPHA was used as a ship-side weapon. That's what that blue beam coming from the ventral hangar of that venator was.
@@michaelandreipalon359 Yeah seriously
@@michaelandreipalon359 Yep. it's canon.
Don't forget when Guntanks flew in space
Tanks in space: the ultimate flex.
Boarding actions are absolutely a possibility even outside of ship to ship combat: taking control of surrendered ships and boarding wrecked ships after a battle. Both to salvage the wrecks and make sure no nasty surprises happen while you cleanup. Plus any ship crew are going to be highly trained personnel who you don't want to lose in combat.
To be fair, a true interstellar campaign would probably be a game of hot potato with ship acquisition, a big fleet action that loses you a fleet has the potential to reinforce the enemies fleet substantially because of acquiring damaged forces from the battle.
As I understand it, the Pillar of Autumn was chosen by Cortana because the Halcyon class light cruisers were some of the few UNSC ships that were sturdy enough to go toe-to-toe with a Covenant ship of the same size. And it was given extensive refits including state of the art reactors, computer systems and a triple shot MAC gun.
Aren’t Halycons classified as Heavy Cruisers?
@@brycebuchanan1138 Retcons. They were originally Cruisers. Now Light Cruisers. Then the Autumn-class was based on the Halcyon's design and became Heavy Cruisers.
I believe that they mention the Pillar of Autumn (Halcyon class) as being a very old and actually poor design by modern UNSC standards, however once the Covenant were engaged the UNSC lack of energy shields meant that Covenant plasma weapons would just keep eating through any Human ships hit and so all the thinner but more advanced armours on newer ships failed hard. (In one of the books I recall they end up having to lose large portions of ships hit just to survive at all.)
However the Halcyon used a form of honeycombed armour which had a lot of open space between which caused the plasma to burn out and so the older Halcyon design could far better weather repeated hits from plasma weapons which the others could not survive.
Then ONI refit it to be significantly upgunned for its mission. (In game they suggest finding the Halo is a fluke accident from jumping blindly away from the planet Reach. But in side lore they reveal that humanity had uncovered intel around it and that is why in Halo Reach you are getting Cortana to the Autumn and she is going off with the Master Chief to see what the otherwise unknown intel will lead to aka Halo.)
@@samronin1141 Not exactly. The superstructure of the old Halcyon cruisers was what was honeycombed. This allowed it to operate even with something like 80% of its hull breached. Effectively the same outcome.
@@SpaceNerd117 Tbh, there were 2 designs of Halcyon-class. First was honeycomb structured, second had less of that. Mainly due to cost in materials to build one. The honeycombed one used almost the same amount as 2 Marathon-class cruisers or a carrier. That was huge cost. So, later versions reduced amount needed. Pillar of Autumn had honeycomb structure. Main reason to outdate design of Halcyon was due to cost and low efficiency of reactors, compared to newer cruiser design. In fact Halcyon was very succesful desing (it's more like F-22 nowadays, it is considered better than single F-35, but much more costly to maintain -- Halcyon offered better survivability but with high cost of production and low offensive capabilities).
Similar situation was with Halberd-class, where Titanium was partially replaced with Vanadium to reduce costs of external hull, but this was done during development process. Halcyon changes were introduced on later stages, mid-production.
But yeah, Halcyon had smashed records on survivability. Also, Pillar of Autumn was modified to accomodate large marine force - whole ODST battalion for prolonged mission duration. That large number of troops was dictated by mission objectives:
1. secure Covenant ship - cruiser class preffered
2. go to Covenant home planet
3. kidnap High Prophet
4. Bring Covenant ship and Prophet to UNSC space (not Earth!) to:
4a - get covie tech
4b - start negotiations for peace
I think a small unit of "marines" purely dedicated to defend a ship in case of boarding would be useful, if the universe allows for boarding actions. Tanks probably wouldn't be very practical, but perhaps small mechs, infrantry in vacuum-proof power armor and drones would.
Realistically, seising enemy equiptment and supplies would be far more useful that destroying them in deep space, because without some kind of hyperdrive, supply lines can't exsist, the only stuff you have is what you bring with you. Then again, this is not "realistically", this is sci fi
Drones
Yeah - I'm building out a TTRPG with that premise. The fluff/mechanics make boarding actions the alpha tactic, and ships have marines along with exo-suits and/or mechas (3-4m variety rather than Gundam sized).
@@DarthRadical What is it called?
The amount of times i watch a Star Trek episode and think to myself “this really wouldn’t be a problem with a dedicated marine contingent” makes me think the answer to this episode is, yes?
I'm not completely well versed in star trek lore. But I don't think star fleet or the human government has a dedicated marine corps anymore. It seems most of the crew on ships have some degree of weapons training and training on boarding procedures. Also to note, human society in star trek seems relatively pacifist in nature so they may have done away with branches in the military that weren't solely space related.
@@Metro431 yes, a large point of Star Trek is that star fleet isn’t a military. But there are so many episodes in which having a marine or marine like contingent aboard would have either saved the ship or made things significantly easier/safe
@@Mankorra_Gomorrah ah ok I see what you mean now. Although, I think even if they did have a well armed team on board it makes it hard to defend against enemies when they can just beam on to the bridge of your ship lol. I think I've only seen a handful of episodes where their enemies physically go through an airlock to board the ship.
@@Metro431 well I think that in a universe where that is how combat works they would be trained to deal with it. Plus they are constantly having trouble beaming people on and off ships
MACOS were awesome in Enterprise, considering how many times the ship was boarded. Really regret not getting a 5th season
They should still have a Space Marine presence on a board. No one's saying that you need tanks or the ability to invade, just a small group of dedicated combat personnel for things shuttle landing and such.
You should always have that force on hand. Sailors (crewmen) are hard working people, but they don't dedicate themselves to combat like marines do. It's a good idea to have some skull crackers ready to move in, they can be as useful as an anti-ship missile.
@Fondil Mahbols Oh, I know modern ships have marine security crews, my uncle served on a corvette, 20 men, nearly half the crew was made up of marines, because very few things tell someone you mean business like a bunch of dudes pointing SA 80's in your face.
Edit: Spelling.
Platoons are a thing.
Or depending on the setting, to, you know, stop enemy boarders. Warhammer 40k and Star Trek, despite being thematically so different share this as a commonality as they both have settings where boarding vessels is a very viable tactic. In Star Trek, you just have to bring down shields and you can start beaming people aboard the enemy vessel. 40k has boarding torpedoes.
That's more like a security crew, like the Trek redshirts/yellowshirts. They're not really there for huge operations but to check for saboteurs, toss someone in the ship jail, escort people etc.
A lot of navies don't even have marines. They just use regular crew, who have boarding team training, for the role.
USN if they are going to do drug interdiction will sometimes take on a USCG team to do the boarding and search.
that regular crew... who take security and boarding team training is called *marine*
@@Ruzaraneh A sailor who’s been trained for ship board security and a marine who’s been trained for amphibious invasions and ground based warfare are world’s apart.
@@tonybaminaboni4737 AFAIK marine detachment are one of the regular in the ship right ? unless he talking about the merchant fleet then i am wrong...
@@tonybaminaboni4737 True, but aside from the security detachment, it was farily common until recently for most ships to carry a complement of marines to protect the ship from boarding, board enemy ships, and raid coastal regions if necessary. Actual naval security is the more recent thing, specifically in the US, as the Marines have become their own thing and grown from simply being naval infantry.
Should ships carry a contingent of marines?
Yes, for ship security and boarding/counter-boarding actions. Larger ships carrying more marines.
Should they have tanks?
No. Everytime that tank fires, you risk blowing a hole in your own hull.
Carrying enough troops and equipment for a planetary invasion should be done by dedicated transports.
That’s why amphibious assault ships and Marine Expeditionary Units exist. You never know when you might have to land a force of Marines with all their gear.
Actually, boarding actions were very common in WW2, if you include capturing surrendering ships. You need to have armed men to take prisoners and secure surrendering ships, even if they don't fight. So any ship that can expect to capture enemy ships should probably have some marines aboard. Your regular crew can also perform such duties, but they're less trained for security and combat.
YES, this exactly. He doesn't mention boarding actions on surrendering ships at all. Imagine if those frigates didn't have the personnel to do boarding actions when they surrendered. They would be forced to sink each and every one.
@@7DeadlyJinxs Which would be a terrible waste, since ships are worth a fortune.
Halcyon-Class in your HALO example also made sense because it was literally made to take the beating the Covenant could dish out. If you are going against an enemy who can one-hit kill most of your other classes of ship, you send a brick who can take it and keep going.
For a brick, it flew pretty good!
Or you make a needle shaped protective shell(from same materials you use in your fusion reactors to contain temperatures that could even melt a Halo ring) around one of your 320 Super MAC installations and fit FTL to it. Then use them as battleships instead of leaving only 20 above Reach.
Lol dedicated dreadnoughts getting gutted by a plasma blast through their cores and dies, the pillar of autumn class ships loosing 90% of their armor, multiple deck breaches, and almost total system failure “alright we’ll call it a draw”
@@dakotalange2858 "plasma"
Yeah, that's my point. Weapon plasma would always be cooler and less dense then reactor one due to the distance it has to travel. Never understood why UNSC doesn't invest money into making their ships nigh immune to main Covenant weaponry since they have the tech and unlike jump drives and processing units, said tech isn't a bottleneck one for humanity's industrial base.
And Super MAC is one of the weapons that is (in)famous for RELIABLY shooting down Covenant ships without any care for their defenses. IF it hits.
also they wer'nt as important to defend earth as the larger and more powerfull battleships.
Should every ship have enough Marines to be able to take a planet, probably not.
Should they have enough to take an hold a Space Station. Definitely as they will like be more important to disrupting enemy Supply lines and strengthening your own and are 999/1000 much smaller than a Planet, and will likely be incapable of supporting armored troop movements anyway.
"Should Every Interstellar Warship Carry Space Marines?" Hell yeah I do need Bloodravens on my ship
As long as they don't have any relics or rare armaments onboard....
@@quwarq Oof
Bruh they'll steal your ship
Bloody Magpies!
I don’t know if I want a chapter known for “acquiring” relics with prejudice on any ship I’d be running.
"A ship without Marines is like a uniform without buttons"
Got to keep the space squids in line
Also if your sailors get slotted, that's one more gap in your operational capacity.
A uniform without buttons is often a good thing, yes.
@@archapmangcmg Great Bird of the Galaxy! ST:TNG Season 1; they were wearing their PJ!
@@Longslide7 Zippers and velcro exist. And slotting/locking things into place, cos armour.
Though I kinda like them wearing something like pyjamas for the pacifist TNG. On theme. Though for the love of.. ugh POCKETS!!!
Their security personnel, though, should have had something knife-resistant at the least.
@@archapmangcmg To get back to the startingt question "SPACE MARINES!" will always have great uniforms
The only reason Anakin's tactic worked was that AT-TEs carried starship grade laser cannons.
Most importantly, it only worked in that scenario because Grevious's fleet had to focus their shields forward to break through the asteroid field, so his ships were defenseless. Definitely shouldn't be a standard tactic, but Anakin's unconventional thinking definitely won that battle.
And if you did you want to make that a regular tactic, you'd want to design actual strike craft or space-worthy walkers (mobile suits) that could better hide in space terrain/debris.
it's a mass driver cannon. projectile. sure it uses energy to assist in projectile acceleration but it's a projectile weapon
You are most likely thinking of the SPHA-T walker which does have a starship grade turbolaser as its main weapon...
@@robertdrexel2043 Anakin used a SPHA-T in the Battle of Coruscant, but he was talking about the AT-TEs he used in the asteroid, which technically use mass drivers.
Reason why _Autumn_ had a marine contingent was it was on Reach before the events of Halo: CE. It _literally_ the same ship you bring Cortana to and defend in Halo: Reach
Mass evacuations occured during the latter game, and the _Autumn_ was one of the few ships groundside that could transport that much cargo and manpower in one go.
That was actually a pretty significant retcon, but yeah it would also give a decent explanation for why there are so many troops and so much hardware aboard.
@@raf74hawk12 Not really. Every ship in the UNSC maintains a detachment of marines for defense and ground deployment should the need arise.
@@cptncutleg ? I'm saying that having the Pillar of Autumn planetside and only launching after the battle of reach was already lost is a retcon. It's been a long time since I read Fall of Reach, but I believe that she participated in the battle.
@@raf74hawk12 you are correct, Halo: Reach retconned the novel Halo: Fall of Reach pretty heavily.
@@Emperor528 Which is a shame, because Fall of Reach had a much better story. They could have left it intact by just having a different ship than Autumn launching at the end
Boarding actions probably won't be happening
Casually shows the Astartes stomping through the ship
Summary : Well yes but actually no.
Astartes ships are technically oversized troop transports that are armed heavily enough to serve as war ships. if compared to ships of equal size in the imperial navy then Astartes strike cruisers and battle barges are outgund. the only reason they are as heavily armed as they are is because that astartes are first responders. They can act before the imperium even has decided on who should lead the relife fleet. Så it needs to be able to survive long enough to deploy the Astartes in boarding strikes or on to the planet.
@Leona In Warhammer 49k boarding is a common used taktic in Naval Battles. To send a strike team to destroy vital componets on enemy vessels can give you decisive advantage in battle....
@@felixjohnsens3201 That is in part to just how big and durable ships are in 40k. It's easier to go into the ship and disable the key systems then to try to pound them into dust from outside (especially if you don't have a number/size/weapon advantage over your enemy)
So if you're going against a ship of an opposing faction, what happens exactly if they surrender mid-battle? Just kill everyone board because you don't have the personnel to perform a boarding action?
@@7DeadlyJinxs It would depend on the nature of your fight. You could transfer over some of your officers, imprisoning theirs, and keep the lower ranks now sworn to your service. You could imprison the crew and scuttle the ship. Or you could just kill them all, destroying the ship when their defense are down.
From my point of view, the UNSC was constructing their modern ships (the ones that appeared in the Human-Covenant war) to fight the Insurrection. In Halo, human FTL travel took weeks and sometimes months. They may have some ships capable of transporting large numbers of ground troops and vehicles (Phoenix class and their larger carriers), but only in limited number and spread out. Bear in mind that the UNSC had to patrol 800 worlds, stations and other installations. And given the fact that the UNSC was supposed to defend only the Sol system, and some of the Inner colonies (about 200-300), they didn't need a large navy. So they had to make sure that the ships had some ground fighting capability.
It also explains why the frigates, destroyers and light cruisers had marines and some means to transport them to the surface. They were the most numerous and also served as patrol craft between different systems. (Example being the force send to Harvest in 2526(?) to make contact with the colony. Two frigates and a destroyer.) So they would be the first to notice an active Insurrection force.
Marines can help in anti piracy, scout ground positions and provide armed surveillance of the ship to counter any hostiles inside said vessel. Sure not every ship may need marines but at least a few of them in most ships would come in handy.
My point is that these marines would be enough only to supplement the ships capabilities and mitigate some of the vulnerabilities. Not a full battalion for planetary invasions but a small security force that can defend the ship from hostile actions and provide some sort of boots on the ground scouting capability to the vessel.
Yes i wrote this before i watched the vid
Not to mention that Marines also assist engineers and other personnel in dealing with damage taken during the heat of combat as extra muscle.
It’ll be great if you’ll make a kind of guide you’ve made for navy, you’ll made for army.
The Systems Alliance (Mass Effect) approach seems reasonable: the Normandy carries a squad of Marines and an armoured transport because it's a stealth scout ship intended to operate alone and rapidly drop small special forces groups into dangerous situations. It doesn't do planetary invasions, but there are situations where you want to drop troops onto a planet that are smaller than invasions.
VBSS is a secondary duty in the US Navy, meaning my actual job wasn’t boarding party stuff. Every ship has a VBSS team, but most of the time if you aren’t on a carrier or amphib then that team will all be sailors with other jobs.
what do you do normally? ( I read somewhere that in WW2 shipboard AA gunners were all marines, but I don't know how true that is)
There's instances where rapid deployment of a small contingent to secure a position could come in handy such as beefing up security on an embassy or an outpost where time is limited. So smaller vessels can be readily tasked or are the only units available to provide a rapid reaction force ahead of a larger body of forces especially to provide early assessment of the situation or recon. Inserting a small element is much easier as well than having to figure out the logistics of a massive deployment. Take for instance early drops of pathfinders to mark DZ/LZ's for an incoming airborne drop. The mass of forces can't linger around for a drop to figure out where to land if you don't have enough ISR before an operation.
Broke: Shuttle boarders over in an escorted troop transport in order to sweep through an enemy ship while crippling systems and eliminating crew
Woke: Launch elite heavy infantry in disposable "boarding torpedoes" en mass at an enemy vessel in order to pin-point strike straight at critical targets and lightly defended areas of the ship.
Broke: movie starship troopers
Woke: book starship troopers
Take a look at Warframe, there you have the Option to shoot yourselfe as the projectile INSIDE of an enemy ship. Granted there you play as a cybernetic space ninja with superpowers...
I mean, is they can survive the impact. It really depends on the type of marines and how well you can handle rapid deceleration.
They'd be mostly wiped out unless target's PDCs and missiles or lasers are disabled. Missiles could be deployed on the float by target ahead of time
@@morganrobinson8042 it's not about surviving the impact, if that torpedo gets hit by anything on the way to it's target all the terminators and their irreplaceable wargear is lost to the void.
This reminds me of TCW and the Episode where Anakin and Obi-Wan have to protect duchess satine and there ship is boarded by droids. This is exactly the reason why you need marines on every ship.
*why you need marines in the Star Wars universe
I always thought that the Pillar of Autumn was loaded with UNSC Marines and gear because it was assisting in the evacuation of Reach immediately before the events of Halo: CE. This also explains why Chief and Cortana are there.
That would partially make sense, but wouldn't explain why the Autumn could carry so many troops and gear. Instead, if you don't mind I'll copy paste my previous comment explaining that lore:
Again with the Pillar of Autumn, it wasn't itself meant to take the Covenant Holy City but was only intended to hijack a Covenant ship, so it needed enough hull integrity to survive close contact with a Covenant ship and enough internal space to carry enough troops to fully take over a Covenant capital ship. It was an outdated mothballed ship that's only special merit was its honeycomb construction that allowed it to continue fighting with only a fraction of it's hull integrity left. Then it got modified to hell by the UNSC with far more room to carry troops as well as heavier reactors for its mission. The main force for taking High Charity were the Spartans it was supposed to take aboard, but because of the invasion of Reach, that never happened.
In the halo universe, the covenant really liked boarding actions. Humanity did an amazing job of trying to prevent any information from falling into the covenant's hands, which meant that the covenant would try to take the bridge, and get access to Earth's location.
That's part of the reason why their ships seemed to have larger than average deployments of marines, because they were much more likely to be boarded.
The different stages of Cole Protocol. If you can stop them reaching a data centre you don't have to delete your navigation information....if you have to delete it you might not get home when you next jump.
Wasn't the Pillar of Autumn's mission less planetary invasion more clandestine operation with an elite unit of Spartan II's originally?
The main reason the pillar of autumn was carrying any large ground force at all, was because it was evacuating those forces from the planet of Reach. The original plan was to use a special operations Pelican that had been modified to ram into a Covenant ship allowing the Spartan teams on board.
Source: "Halo: the Fall of Reach"
Yes and that's also why they choose a cruiser and not a transport ship: the pillar of autumn had gauss cannons.
In halo universe covenant ships were insanely more advanced and resistent compared to the UNSC so smaller weapons are completely useless.
Plans change. The plan was to ambush a Covie ship/colony/whatever and get close. The ship was designed to tank hits, allowing the assault. It also helped that they were evacuating shit from Reach, which yes, was a special circumstance.
@@lynchkid003 Halo: Fall Of Reach has the PoA arrive at Reach as it is being glassed, the plan was never to evacuate Reach, they simply arrived too late to save it.
@@lynchkid003 I prefer the Reach from the books than what the videogame gave us.
The battle looks epic and it makes you feel the scale of it. The game does not pay tribute to that.
The thing missing here is opportunity cost. In sci-fi ships seem to have infinite space and resources, but in reality something else would suffer to fit marines.
That's the real lesson, I think. Forget about specialization and merit, the question should be: would it even work?
If it does, you have to sacrifice things. And sometimes it's worth sacrificing portions of a ship to carry troops, and sometimes it's not.
In space ships can be as big as you want them
Something to point out regarding redundant things on ships. A friend of mine who worked as a civilian contractor for the navy said that one of the reasons why the USS Cole attack was successful was because they had been stripping off machine guns from destroyers because they were deemed obsolete.
"The use of marines or naval infantry in interstellar warfare is limited..." Spoken like someone who's never had a boarding torpedo rammed into their hull 🙃
FWIW, not all US Navy ships have Marine detachments, but every one that carries nukes does. Some sailors are also trained with rifles and there is certainly a small arms locker on every ship.
I think there's some merit in having at least a small contingent of troops for that purpose. When not performing boarding actions, they could also double in other roles such as ship security and combat training for other crew members, should they need to perform boarding, etc.
you are correct, in a war. however, on small scale peacekeeping missions where only single ships or small feet are presents, it is very much useful if only to keep the fleet as flexible as possible. however, this does have as a consequence that when a war starts, those troop deployments may remain even if they are less useful and only add to the causality count.
"...Just because tanks were useful in a space battle once, doesn't mean you should plan for that every time."
Fine, I'll put away the SPHAT from my Venator's ventral hanger.
You're no fun.
At some point you're gonna be so technologically advanced you won't need to anymore.
If anything, eventually troop and starfighter compliments would probably be supplanted by different kinds of drones. Though with that said, advancements in jamming and EMP tech would probably necessitate us still having non-automated forces.
@@GmodPlusWoW why not biologically engineered drones instead, communicating with pheromones?
Also, you could use precise gravitational waves to communicate instead, allowing FTL communication.
@@brokensky2378 On the one hand, being able to grow drones would require less assembly than drones, which might help keep costs low.
But on the other hand, I feel like organically-grown drones would be a little less durable than drones built from alloys and carbon-fibre.
@@GmodPlusWoW but then when those fail we need men to fight off the sabatuer
@@GmodPlusWoW afterwards you'll have to deal with ppl begining about "morality" and "ethics"
I would like to hear your opinion on Imperial Star Destroyers, who were designed to project power in a system on their own. Because of that most of them had Stormtroopers and some vehicles on board.
I personally think in that case a large marine presence would make sense. Thats not a simple cruiser at that point but a full on sky fortress designed to be a force all on its own
I think it'd be dependent on the size of the ship itself and the role it plays in a war (corvettes would probably have a section, maybe even a squad, cruisers a platoon, and battleships and captial-ships would have at least a platoon or two); they'd be more useful for anti-boarding actions and recon, as well as special, covert tasks.
Could imagine smaller ships being complimented with a detachment of marines for the usual security patrol and boarding of vessels for inspection for illegal activities, goods i.e coast guard duties.
It would be a good story starting point for a Corvette with a very bored marine detachment at a backwater sector of space suddenly encountering a full scale invasion fleet, having to survive and warn the rest of the fleet.
Yeah. For discipline purposes on board, protecting ship in harbour / dock. As for infantry ... well, this boils to doctrine or technology. Robert Heinlein and later William Keith / Ian Douglas in Galactic Corps made both great cases for small vessels carrying small strike force and dispersing it for infiltration / boarding. ALso, I recall great example from Andromeda series, when gun walkers were deployed on hull to fight boarders and provide token defence when primary systes were gradually worn down.
OMG another Ian Douglas fan!!!!
Also: in the andromeda series, marines were also deployed on the hull from the get go during the final battle in the first book to supplement the ship's point defense guns
I'd like to see a debate between Templin and Spacedock on including fighters on most ships vs only dedicated carriers.
Most ships carry a few helicopters or water plane for recon and utility if they have the space
Fighters are stupid. A bunch of shuttles and scout/utility drones make perfect sense.
Depends on the technology available. In Star Trek, fighters were rarely used (and took horrendous casualties when used) due to the incredible targeting accuracy and firepower of most ships (imagine being able to accurately swat away modern fighters with a 200mm cannon), whereas in Star Wars and Babylon 5, fighters have particularly potent weaponry and targeting accuracy against small, fast moving targets is a major issue for most capital ships.
Add fuel requirements to that list as well; Star Wars and Star Trek have fighters with FTL capability and can travel a large distance before needing refueling. Babylon 5 is close as well, IIRC, Sinclair and Garibaldi travelled a couple of days to take care of some pirates.
@@papapalps2415 to be fair, on the point of accuracy, consistency in that regard varies wildly between series. For instance, compare the firefights in TNG versus DS9 or even Voyager: many fights in TNG were over quickly from targeting and disabling ship systems (granted, most weregoing against inferior opponents). DS9 and Voyager, yeah, far more shots missed during on screen firefights. I'll give you that.
As for fighter casualty rates, every time fighters were on screen (Conundrum, Sacrifice of Angels, Best of Both Worlds part II though idk if those were actually fighters), beyond Maquis episodes and the new stuff, fighters die really badly. I can't think of any episodes where fighters were used in combat against larger opponents and didn't take horrendous casualties, other than the Maquis ambushes, but then again, IIRC, the Federation ships targeted didn't have shields up until after the first volleys, and a point was made early on about the inferior tech of Cardassian ships pre-Dominion.
Is it fair to assume that fighters always die horribly in universe? Maybe not, but all I have to work with is what's on screen; books and comics are still Beta Canon last I checked.
My opinion about this topic. I think most ships in an interstellar navy should have marines on board... depending on the size of ship determines the amount of marines on board providing security to the ship. For example: a patrol ship has such a small crew that marines is overkill to have onboard, compared to a carrier or battleship, you want to have some marines on board(they are important in your fleet to keep safe). These marines will have access to their standard kits, and if the ship is too big for a marine to walk from one end to the other, then you can throw in a buggy or 2.
In the Honorverse books most warships carry Marines, they fulfil the roles traditionally assigned to Marines on ocean going warships (Damage Control, crewing weapon mounts, shipboard police and boarding parties). The RMMC (Royal Manticoran Marine Corps) are also deployed for ground engagements and use of powered armour is common (not universal) two examples of this are the battle of Blackbird base and the police action on Basilisk.
Or the operation on mobius
Conversely, the 'marines' on Republic of Haven ships for most of the books were there to suppress mutinies.
@@brendanrobertson5966 The People's Marines or State Sec?
Especially, since one of the major operations that the Royal Manticoran Navy takes part in is anti-piracy patrols through the section of space known as the Silesian Confederacy which is a hotbed of piracy. At least before the wars with Haven anyways. It is also where tons of Manticoran Merchants ship run through for various reasons.
I was thinking about the Honorverse during both videos, wondered if someone was going to bring it up
you should do an "organizing the hierarchy of your interstellar army"
Without watching the video.
YES.
Lol
I wanted to say yes too at first but his points are very good
That is like asking if starships should have weapons on them
Everything depends on your initial and intended strategy as well as contingency strategies as well as your current plans and plans for the future this may not be a straightforward answer but there’s a lot of things to consider
I think so, especially if your fighting an enemy that does boarding actions often.
at current I am writing an amateur sci-fi book and I have dealt with this in the book. the way I crossed it is that there is a separate branch of marines called void marines, they operate in 0G for combat and fight in boarding actions. BUT they are not numerous and each ship usually only carried about 6-12 marines, in addition they are trained to operate in tight rooms and are more of just an in case you need them force to check out a space wreck or something.
they are in the book also trained to go out onto the hull of a ship in combat to repair weapons on the hull and inside of the ship repairing damaged places in combat. that way they act as engineers who can be sent to low level tasks instead of sending a fully trained engineer to fix a smoothie or something.
Sounds interesting. I’m writing my own story with some similar stuff. I’ve even started making videos kinda like the templin institution for added lore.
How far are you into your story
eh its more of just a passion project that I do in my spare time, I try to keep up continuity but damn it gets hard sometimes. so far I'm on like a good chunk through of what I planned to write
@@ISAF_Ace what’s your word count?
right now about 70k, Like I said its just a passion project. I'm not uploading it anywhere right now, I just want to compare my own work to others as I find it gives a new perspective
@@ISAF_Ace that’s good. Most military sci fi and space opera are 80k. Your doing good. Check my channel out as I talk about writing and my stuff if your interested.
The "Pillar of Autumn" was a bit of a special case, mostly due to it's construction (If I remember correctly). It was part of a discontinued generation of ships and it's design (though not intended) allowed it to soak up more damage from covenant weaponry than it's contemporaries. It was chosen (I assume) for that purpose, over other more conventional options.
Yep. It was then modified to carry all the personal and equipment needed to carry out "Operation: Red Flag"
It's interesting to see the relaxation of defense in Star Trek doctrine over the course of that timeline. It was actually kind of pathetic how easily the Enterprise-D or Voyager were captured.
If you want boarding actions to be a thing in your setting... the best way to encourage that is to have elite super humans, to have small ships that are fast and shielded enough that they're hard to take out, and have high value targets worth capturing.
So Astartes was a great example. One pod full of space marines could capture an entire enemy ship... when the ship alone would be worth an absolute FORTUNE. And as mentioned in another comment, even if your enemy surrenders you still have to board them, and be prepared in case it's a ruse.
Based on today's take on naval warfare, ships need a pretty good degree of flexibility to encompass a wide mission profile if they are deployed as a stand alone or part of a larger force.
The main flaw in this is that you are taking it from the view point that all marines follow the modern USA style marine force which is effectively its own army, air force, and navy although recently even they are starting to move away from this with the removal of tank formations. Traditionally marines were infantry that served as ship board security, against the crew and boarding attempts, and also as a light rapid landing force to conduct raids or make a bridgehead for other troops. Marines in that sense make sense to be all space warships in certain numbers. Marines in the US marine corp does not.
Preliminary answer: warships should carry boarding capable drones and crewmembers incase there is need to board a disabled enemy ship. But this shouldn't be their only role on the ship, they shouldn't have ground vehicles or anything not related to space, and they should never be intended for use defensively, because space ship hulls are quite literally the only barrier between the occupants and an untimely death, as shown by FTL. Everything that can be used to block off an hull breach or keep the crew alive, can also kill any boarding party.
a few points/addendums:
a) add "or surrendered" to the "disabled enemy ship". cause contrary to popular believe (for some reason) crews WILL likely surrender when facing a unavoidable and unwinnable battle (of course with exeptions)
b) "internal security" does not nessesarily refer to "defend against boarding actions". MPs are a thing for a reason ^^
c-1) like most smart FTL players, space ships will most likely depressurise before entering combat (to avoid fires, explosive decompression etc)
c-2) UNLIKE FTL any semi inteligent spacefaring race that utilises boarding during combat (or at any time) will have/equip their troops with some way to withstand exposure to space. be that voidsuits, sealed powerarmors, genetic mutations or whatever ^^
the same is naturally true for their ship crews as well. cant realy use the depressurise trick without giving your guys voidsuits after all ^^
d) regarding the vehicles i mostly agree though having a small amount (depending of ship size) of light air/surface vehicles is very likely to be usefull (unless the ship is STRICTLY a fleetkomponent) since most ship will sooner or later end up on patrole somewhere and run into some kind of truble dirtside where mobility/scouting will be very usefull. im talking a jeep or two and/or a chopper (or the setting equivilant) not like tanks...
@@drizzt7dourden7 History has shown that while crews will surrender, they'll do so after scuttling their ship. So in space, this means abandoning the ship with escape pods after overloading the reactor.
Well I did say they should have other duties. That's why Starfleet security qualifies as on-board infantry, even if it would be better having more militarized.
And I wasn't referring to just venting a compartment when talking of how spaceships are death traps. One could also vent plasma/radiation _in_ the compartment, or close off a fast bulkhead decapitating the boarders etcetera etcetera.
As for ground side operations, shuttles and jeeps should cover most needs. As you said no need for specialised aircrafts or tanks
it will really just come down to the doctrine of what ever group is building and operating thos ships, in the case of the star wars republic them having tanks on board a Venator made sense as it is a multirole ship and in a later episode showed it only held a couple at the end of the hangers compared to say the acclimator that is designed from the ground up to carry heavy armor and troop battalions for planetary ops
Yes! Space marines are cool!
It’ll depend on your strategic objective. Also, naval ships, if they do not have Marines, will cross-train sailors in boarding actions. Every sailor also has the responsibility of protecting their ship, meaning everyone from admin personnel, cooks, to boatswains and Ops pers, have to undergo regular training on security duties / use of force, in case they are ever posted on sentry duty while in port or if there’s an intruder alert. With interstellar navies, having Marine compliments should be a yes, as space is so vast you never know where you will end up despite all the planning etc, but it should be noted that every crewman will have the training I mentioned above.
"We're being boarded… release the *kill-bot swarms."*
To be realistic, even in most sci fi IP's (which are fantasy to begin with), the technology exist to make having to defend against troop boarding a automated process.
Fixed emplacements facing the airlocks would even work in Star Wars. And as for Star Trek, just have holo emitters on strategic corridors with programs that are just blades appearing inside attackers.
About the only IP where boarding could happen is Battlestar Galactica, as automated defenses are not a good idea.
The problem with those is the ships being hit with ion weapons and getting most of their systems disabled. Kill bot swarms and automated turrets are kinda useless when they simply do not have power. Which means you still need boots on the ground to actually fight off boarders.
@@TankHunter678 If the ship lost power, realistically if you're facing an enemy who has the ability to suck the power from a ship, you're screwed.
That being said, batteries are a thing, and ion cannons are definitely Star Wars style weapons. (Ions do the exact opposite of what they do in Star Wars, an example is the lithium ion batteries we have today)
As for energy dampening weapons, if someone's able to hit an enemy ship with such precision while going at 12,600+ kph and then board the ship, there won't be any ability to fight back anyways, as if you are in space, the pitch black is going to prevent you from seeing and if the batteries on the automated defenses are taken out, it's almost certain that non of the emergency flashlights or any thermals will be working, either. Energy based weapons shouldn't be working, either, and it's not really a good idea to start firing blind using ballistic weapons in a situation like that. You'll hit your own crew or punch a hole through the hull of the ship or space station.
@@Zachomara The other thing to think of in that case would be that even if the disabling shot did not knock out the batteries it could have simply knocked out the ship systems and render the turrets and bots inert by virtue of the control system being down which is how it is typically depicted in any action movie or anime, or worse the control system suffers a fatal error and now your own defenses are trying to kill you.
You also have to be concerned about any blind spots that would allow for remote hacking, or if the boarding pod can land and the guys hack into your system before exiting and take control of the gun turrets and bots to use against you.
In both of those cases you need some combat personnel of your own if you want to be able to hold out to try to fix things while you hope for any allies to drive off the ship trying to send people over to take yours.
There is also the situation that happened in the backstory of Subverse, where the Pirate Queen became the Pirate Queen after a mission where she took out a battleship by herself because she was a race that could survive in the vacuum of space naked for several hours. So she had her crew launch her at the enemy battleship. Which did not detect her because all of its sensors were looking for the technology needed for surviving in space, and not someone surviving in space against all common sense without that technology. She cut her way through a ship window and proceeded to slaughter the crew because there were no ground/ship combat trained personnel on board as the ship was built with the mindset of boarding actions never happen and the crew was selected under that same mindset. So she had a fun time killing everyone before killing the Admiral in command of the ship.
Better to have something you don’t need than need something you don’t have.
-Aristotle (not really)
My favorite example of ground vehicles in space combat is that bit in Andromeda where 2 mech just obliterate like 200 magog boarding ships
I think I'm roughly on the same wavelength- generally, there's no advantage to a large mass of infantry or armored units on a ship. A couple squads worth, probably isn't a bad idea- if nothing else they can be cross trained to help fill in gaps in the crew as needed. Many hands make light work and all. If you're going as far to suggest a fighter contingent across the board, a dropship isn't that much more, and it could also supplement the ship, by way of heavier weapons/ELINT packages, and shuttle duty.
Personally I think Marines should be deployed on all warships in some fashion, as these generally would provide shipboard security and often policing actions (in works of Sci-fi).
Yeah he seems too narrowly focused on using ships for direct ship to ship combat and forgetting all the other things a ships is going to be used for in a war (let alone peace time duties). It's nice to have an option that doesn't involve completely obliterating the target if all they're trying to do is to stop a ship smuggling rip off handbags and watches.
I always thought that the Pillar of Autumn was carrying those guys because it was evacuating them from Reach
It was, but Cortana also planned for that ship to carry those people, specifically Keyes and John.
No. The marine/ODST battalion was already there, but they evacuated a company or two of guys from the Reach army. So army evacuations, not marines
A defensive force to deter boarders and maintain security is essential to every spacefaring vessel.
Yes even the civilian ones. Especially the civilian ones.
This is a question I've asked other Trek fans. Even before the Dominion War, should Federation starships have actual Marines vs "Security officers"?
Star trek is a rather nieve universe
I think your right a single ship can have security units but full Marine Force no only if it's a troop transport it just makes sense
In “Star Trek,” in most notably the game “Star Fleet Battles,” troops are transported in to conduct hit and run type sabotage. This happens on ships that have lost their shields. Boarding Parties, (BPs,) beam in, conduct an attack on any venerable system, and beam out. There may be similar operations in 40K.
I don't think so. In Star Trek it makes sense due to teleportation technology. There is no such technology in 40k, as far as I'm aware, so if there are boarding operations, they are much harder to execute.
But boarding operations can be actually pretty crucial for Imperium, since they lack technology to rebuild the most powerful of their spaceships, so if Chaos takes control of one such ship, it's better to get it back in one piece.
@@starhalv2427 40K does have teleportation technology, thought it has become rarer since the Heresy.
@@gokbay3057 Oh well, I'm not a huge lore expert, so that explains why I didn't know about teleportation in 40k universe
This is very good! It wouldn’t make sense and the cost of feeding the troops who didn’t do much could cripple the system. You would have a dedicated ship/ships for missions they was needed. In my story I’ve got carriers and troop carriers. Basically the same ships but one for fighters in space and the other is for dropping army’s to the targeted planet. Good video!!!
I agree
What about the UNSC Spirit of Fire? That was a colony ship that was later retrofitted into a warship. It's capable of sending out command modules to construct bases, as well as having a detachment of Marines, and a dedicated team of SPARTAN-II's.
EDIT: I had neglected to mention the UNSC Infinity. The most advanced ship within the UNSC Navy.
Spirit of Fire seems like a troopship to me, and it is understandable that the Infinitry, which is a capital ship designed to basically be an entire fleet into and of itself would also have ground forces.
The Spirit of Fire is a specialised kind of ship, comparable to a troop transport. It's very much dedicated to supporting ground forces from orbit and not engaging enemy ships.
The Infinity however appears to be built to fight a whole campaign on its own, with escort ships held in internal hanger bays and a huge number of weapons. It's effectively a battleship-carrier hybrid.
@@adamstringer7092 The Spirit of Fire fought back a Covenant Destroyer late in the Harvest campaign. Sure, the Spirit of Fire isn't going to do well against something like a Supercarrier, but a Destroyer? Probably.
Yet again, Templin Institute knows barely anything about Halo Lore.
Again with the Pillar of Autumn, it wasn't itself meant to take the Covenant Holy City but was only intended to hijack a Covenant ship, so it needed enough hull integrity to survive close contact with a Covenant ship and enough internal space to carry enough troops to fully take over a Covenant capital ship. It was an outdated mothballed ship that's only special merit was its honeycomb construction that allowed it to continue fighting with only a fraction of it's hull integrity left. Then it got modified to hell by the UNSC with far more room to carry troops as well as heavier reactors for its mission. The main force for taking High Charity were the Spartans it was supposed to take aboard, but because of the invasion of Reach, that never happened.
Yes, next question.
Actually, General Skywalker deployed the AT-TE strategy a second time to board Cad Bane's Separatist frigate, but as you said, it also applies as an exception to the rule as it was in a desperate attempt to rescue Jedi Master Bolla Ropal.
Tanks, artillery, and the vehicles used in a mechanized division should be kept in a troop transport... but I can see drop pod with some transports on something like the MCRN Strike Cruiser... we also font know if borading pods are going to become standard practice
Depends on the ship and mission. Also you can carry just a squad of marines, not a whole regiment. Sometimes bringing a dozen marines with a little help from the crew will be enough, such as the case of piracy.
If we take Legend of the Galactic Heroes into account, marines were kept to a limited capacity typically one batallion per fleet rather than each ship i.e the Rosen ritter.
I think this is something that is going to vary by universe than have a single answer applicable to all universes.
Marines... I agree in most universes and in reality need for Marines for defense against boarding actions on every ship is not really practical. Having said that, a case can be made for a contingent of marines for defense against boarding actions can be made in some universes. Take Battlestar Galactica, where boarding actions, particularly in the 1st Cylon war, were fairly frequently done.
Fighter wings... I agree in most universes and in reality need for a wing if not a squadron of fighter planes can be really practical. Having said that, I can think of some universes where that is not really very practical. Star Trek immediately comes to mind, fighters are shown so rarely that it makes little sense to have them on all ships. However, having said that it does make more sense to me to have a couple combat capable shuttle craft (like Type 11/14) on each ship instead, or even Runabouts on the larger ships, since those are more multipurpose.