It's worth noting that the HPC150 standard allows for a peak current limit of 500A, however most 150 kW stations you'll encounter out there are limited to 350A. This also causes issues at some of the even lower limit stations out there, we've found some of the new 7-Elevation branded stations limit current to 250A so they had a limit of around 70 kW on the Blazer at 5% SOC.
Really good job Alex, explaining technical concepts in simple terms. While you could have resorted to the formula VxI=W, I think what you did makes it far more accessible to people who's current understanding of formulas is limited to what goes into a baby's bottle. Shame the US is stuck with 120V at the wall.
True, for conceited individuals who don't even understand that 120 volts is safer, information needs to be simplified.... FWIW the US has higher voltage receptacles, when needed...
And in NorCal, the number one reason a slow charging car is at a 350kW charger is that it was the only one available when it was that car's turn to charge. There is also a 200A cable limit on some chargers which does not help the situation.
Seems we are lucky here. Hadn't had any issues with waiting on chargers yet. Recently in France I stopped at a station with 10 brand new 350kW stations. Not sure what the total limit is when all in use, but it worked flawless for me. Otherwise it is usually 4 to 6 chargers at between 200kW and 400kW
I've always felt the solution to the "car using the wrong charger" situation was just to deploy more 350kW chargers vs trying to teach the general public "charging etiquette".
People forget that the most prolific charging provider to date has emphasized high-current charging at 400 V. When GM finally gets access to the Tesla Supercharger Network, those V3 Superchargers with 631+ A service will likely be the #1 choice for 85 kWh Ultium EV drivers.
The problem with trying to deploy more 350kW is that you need higher quality components and permitting for it. Unlike gas, where any pump and fuel is roughly the same, a higher DCFC means everything about it is faster....is it fair to pay the same $/kWh for a 350kW vs a 150kW? With destination chargers in California already costing around $0.50/kWh at 250kW, trying to go for 350kW is going to break the gas savings argument.
I didn’t know pack voltages varied so much, since everyone just says 400V or 800V. All the nuances to charging is definitely very confusing for the average consumer.
The big problem is that it is complex and not something you can explain in 2 senctences. People just want something easy like higher number is better. And the automotive world has always been that way Fortunately more and more DC Fast Chargers are becoming 350kW chargers, which also fixes the problem.
This is 100% the fault of EA for installing different level charging posts. I’ll never fault a user for pulling up to a post and just using it. Too many entitled drivers.
Thank you for explaining this. I realized this on my EV6 pretty early when I saw that it would get something like 180 kw on the 150 kw chargers. I started charging on the 150 kw chargers because they seem more reliable to me. It doesn’t hurt the charging time too much either. Maybe like 6 minutes longer than on the 350kw charger (I’m usually only trying to recharge 150 miles of range to get to the next charger). I also was thinking it would preserve my battery to charge on the 150kw chargers. But that doesn’t seem to be the case with new research. Seems like you can do whatever you want to an EV battery and it will be just find for 10+ years haha. I really wish everyone would go to higher voltage cars. It would bring down costs for everyone. And it would make charging easier for cheaper vehicles. My EV6 never seems to have thermal struggles with charging. Even on these insanely hot days, the charging speed never seems to be affected (unless it is being limited at the station, I’ve seen some stations that wouldn’t give 86 kwh no matter what car you had). So if everyone moved to say 800v, you could charge an equinox at 200kw with just 250 amps. That’s nothing when it comes to heat generation. Should be super easy to cool that battery down.
You’re not entirely wrong, but you’re missing some info; info that’s really only relevant if you’re wanting to propose a sane solution, rather than simply saying “just go to a higher voltage”, which isn’t helpful. First off, I’ve got to assume we’re all familiar with how series and parallel connections work. The first thing to know when designing a battery pack is how much power it’ll be expected to provide at maximum; the second is what portion of that peak power will be a “normal” (“sustained, not changing by much”) load. Once you know those, you get the specs of the cells you’re using; particularly the voltage ranges and the capacity in Amp Hours. Now, you take the capacity of the cells, and see how many it would take to sustain the “normal” load, plus a ~15% margin for error. For example, the Nissan LEAF. The peak expected demand is 250 amps, and “normal” load is around 80. The cells are 75 Amp Hours, so 2 cells in parallel should sustain it for just under 2 hours (ignoring losses for now, to keep this much simpler). This is the arrangement of the pre-40kWh LEAF packs; 2 cells in series to make a group, 2 groups in parallel to make a module, and all modules connected in series to bring the voltage up. With this design in mind, there are 2 ways to bring the voltage above the ~380v peak; add more modules, which adds more weight and may require other changes (suspension, frame rails, heavier wheel bearings, etc) or take away the parallel cells and make the whole pack all-in-series and set a lower peak power. Keep in mind, less power (in amps) available to the inverter that drives the motor, means slower acceleration and less range at higher speeds (where you draw more amps). Now yes, higher voltage DOES allow more amps to flow for the same amount of heat/loss, but which is more important; less heat generated in the battery pack when fast charging, or being able to drive for longer? And even if you prioritize the fast charging, there’s another variable; with no cells in parallel, and all cells in series, the power MUST flow through each cell in sequence; a single cell that’s as little as 0.003 ohm higher resistance can mean that one side of the pack reaches its “fully charged” voltage while the other side is significantly lower. By having cells in parallel in there, you give the incoming charge a “way around” the higher resistance cell, so that voltage imbalance can be minimized (though not completely eliminated), even if it does cause a bit more wear and tear to the “parallel” cell there. There’s a fair bit more that I’m skipping over, but this is already a massive wall of text; sorry, but this is as condensed as I can get it.
Thank you for supplying the public with knowledge. It is hard to explain to the general public that just because the specification has a maximum, doesn't mean the company designed their equipment to the maximum. OEM's are doing a disservice to their customers by not being transparent or explaining this in layman terms.
Agreed! There are three factors (amps, volts, watts) mathematically related yet each will have its own maximum limit in both the charger and the car. Ideally both would report the limit being encountered, but as companies like to point fingers if at least they each reported the others limiting factor it would be very helpful. Helpful not only for the frustrated driver, but perhaps also so that driver could explain to others frustrated while waiting. I wonder what a few kwh of super capacitors costs... Take 5-10kwh of power quickly, and then feed it to the battery after disconnecting from the charger. Some claim supercaps would also help regen, but I'm not sure about that.
Wow Alex, excellent info and thank you very much for this. We have 2 EVs in our household - a Tesla and Rivian so we are lucky to have access to the Supercharger network plus more. And even with this, one thing we've learned is that you have to pack all the patience with you when road tripping. We've also seen our fair share of charging challenges and learn every time in planning. It's getting better, but plan, plan and bring your patience along with you. The benefits of having an EV do outweigh the costs of owning ICE vehicles for us.
Thanks for talking about this. It has been the case for many, many years dating back to the 50kW cars. I had a Focus Electric that never charged at 50 kW until 2018 when I could plug into a 150kW EA station, then I got the full capability of the car. ANY 150kW rated car plugging into a 150 kW rated station will not get full charging speed, it just gets worse as the battery voltage gets lower.
The problem will also come down to next available stall. It was a bad idea to create different speed chargers and not differentiate the price. If I show up with an EV and there is a queue, I shouldn't have to verbally negotiate with others who will jump line or which speed you're waiting for. Charging stations should have a single lane to park in as you approach the chargers, so that consumers can see that queue as they approach. That queue should dictate who is next and that person should mive to the next available (working) charger. Lights at the to of the charger should indicate if they are available (green), occupied(blue or orange?) Or inoperable(no light or red). If a station has two speeds of chargers they should have two queues, and people should have the choice to get in whatever queue they want. As you've seen with tour Blazer experience, it's wrongheaded to assume you know which speed station someone should be using. Almost always, the next available station is the right one to go to, as EV adoptiin increases and DC Fast charging becomes a supply limited service. It will not scale well for a number of reasons including station cost, demand charges, profitability, and excessive charge times. If you need to go far, people may be inclined to charge above 80% knowing there will be lines at all the next available stations. Stupid games that Kyle Conner and Byorn play with discharging to 3% SoC and only charging to 40% only to hop to the next charger in less than one hour at 85 mph, will not work when we have 2 hour queues.
This is great information. Thank you. Explains a lot. Around here it’s more expensive to use the 350 unit rather than the 150 unit. We find with the Bolt most 50 kW stations are free (and inconvenient) so there you go.
That’s really interesting. In my Ioniq 5, the difference between a 150, and a 350 is only a few minutes to go from a low stage of charge to 80%. That assuming the EA station is working properly.
This is a failure on the chargers cutting corners and not the manufacturers. The chargers should just be 350kw, and it should scale itself down as needed. Even if it cost 15-20% more for the chargers, long run they wouldn't have to be replacing them and wouldn't have to deal with the negative publicity inhibiting growth.
I can send you a car scanner screenshot of my EV6 charging at 789V when at I was at 92.5% SOC. I believe the EV6 is approaching a full 800V at 100% SOC. I have also achieved 185 KWH from a 150 KWH station in my preconditioned EV6 when a BZ4X was locked with no driver in sight at the 350 KWH station 45 minutes into their charge session taking 27 KWH with the outside temp of 28F.
the vast majority of ppl dont understand this. they just see bigger number better. until there is a cost difference, no one will change behavior. dont forget where the avg intelligence stands....
the vast majority of ppl that denigrate the average intelligence of the population... don't appreciate the complexity of the issue... but ironically that apparently proves their point.... nvm ;) (and creating a cost difference would be a motivating factor? no duh)
@@nc3826 People want to charge and go. Not be an electrical engineer over charging. Just only puts a sour taste in their mouth,.....I made a mistake in this purchase.
Not to be mean but Bolt drivers should be just charging at home and not leaving town period. It's like taking a kids tricycle to an adult bike race. Please get a other car for traveling!
Also some 350KW stations are rated at 1000VDC at 350A. Delta actually makes a 350KW station that has a max 540A output. And GM cars will take that current (EVgo uses these stations) All of the GM Ultium vehicles need 500A to hit peak charge speeeds. GM uses the same module across 5 (currently) different battery pack sizes. This means that some configurations end up operating at a lower voltage. However this also brings manufacturing scale and reduces costs. It's a trade off. The video misses the 14 module pack that is currently used as the base pack for Brightdrop and will be used in the up and coming 2WT 2025 Silverado EV.
So I think this is probably the *real* reason people shy away from EVs. I love EVs and 99% of this video goes right over my head. Most people don't care to know what type of engine they have in their ICE car, I don't imagine they care to know the math on how their EV charges. Gas stations are easy. You don't have to guess which station is most optimal or most courteous for the car you have, you just pick the one with the shortest line. And if someone doesn't understand EV charge rates, of course they are going to pick the one that advertises the fastest charge.
Yeah, the closest analog on the ICE side is if there are limited diesel pumps and making sure you don't block one off if you don't need it (and have a choice). Much simpler than the EV side at the moment.
Heat losses go with Amperes squared, so higher voltage operation is not only faster, but also cheaper. I think those heat losses are causing overheating and current limitations on those chargers.
@EVBuyersGuide … fantastic and knowledgeable video for the drivers who think why it’s taking an hour to complete charge from 20-80%…. I like your TShirt… can u give me a link
I was charging my Ioniq 5 with a EA 150 kW charger instead of a 350 kW charger and thought if I am charging at a slower speed it will be better for the battery. Maybe this is wrong?
I read somewhere that in order for a 400 V charger to charge a 800 V battery, Ionic 5 has a part that was used to convert the 400 V to 800 V. I think this will be bad for the car and not efficient at using a 350 kW charger.
Thank you for this video. I like what GM did Ultium but I wish they had gone with higher voltage for the battery modules. Maybe 40 volts per modules. I don't know. Higher Voltage, Lower current, the better for thermals and efficiency.
All of this just says to me it's still a wild west out there in EV charging land. I suspect that most people just pull up, go with whatever has the "highest number" with a plug that fits, with no thought to whether their vehicle can actually take advantage of said number.
A very good solution to prevent slow charging cars to use the faster chargers is making the payment on that fastcharger much more expensive. 350KW is more than double 150KW. The payment rate should be done for each minute of charging, not how much KWH is charged. This also prevents people to hang out there until 100% charging is finished.I know it will make charging cheaper for faster charging cars....nut also: Most of the expenses of the charging station is the investment, not the real price of electrcity. And you could tell that you hire that piece of equipment for those minutes. And the real fast charging cars woud not pay to much ...only a little higher than with a 150KW equipment.
Quite interesting. Never realized this. My 400V EV (BMW) actually has a nominal voltige of just over 400V and a 500A charge limit. I do get annoyed with chargers being advertised as 200kW, and arriving there and seeing the small print on the charger saying: 200kW on 800V and 120kW on 400V. Luckily those are not on the motorways, but near shops.
I think the dividing line on 400V vs 800V is pricing. There will be plenty of 400V EVs coming out. 800V will be geared for more expensive/premium/luxury EVs. For example, the EV3 vs the EV6.
At least until the component prices come down. 400v capable electronic components are pretty common because 240v A.C. in residential service has a peak voltage of nominally 340v but over 400v is still within spec. A typical switching power supply has to be able to rectify and chop that voltage and the same type of components are used in motor controllers and battery chargers. Any components for higher voltage are industrial or special purpose which makes them much more expensive, beyond just the additional capabilities.
@@Sylvan_dB Not quite sure about that. Its 400V DC which I don't think a lot of equipment use? I know EVs use 400V DC heat pumps. Charging stations want 480V AC from the utility. This causes CPOs in Europe to install their own substations to avoid extra step up transformers from 400V which would introduce more losses. Most utilities don't have 480V transformers in their stock as its not used. The 400V 3-phase is common around the world. At least in Europe that is the common voltage. They then use L-N to get 230V for the different circuits in the home. There are 3 different sets for this though. Areas with 220V use 380V and 240V will have 415V. The US is a mess of voltages: 120V L1/3-N, 240V L1-L3 and 208V 3-phase L2-N I believe this is the common setup used but without L2 to homes that would give 208V. These are split phase or high delta. You also get 208V L-L with a Wye(Star) setup but then you loose 240V and get 120V L-N. The US also uses 480V 3-phase where you get 277V L-N for industrial supply.
Recently I had an EV6 rental, needed to top it up before returning. So we plugged it into a Tesla Supercharger with Magic Dock, and at 80% SoC was getting 100kwh deep into 90% SoC. Of note; all other CCS native chargers I tried that day failed due to mechanical issues with the dispensers. Tesla magic dock being better designed literally saved the day.
Tesla and Hyundai/Kia have been working on the compatibility issues. It seems that most, but not all Magic Docks have been updated and of course V4 stations don't have the issue at all.
@@EVBuyersGuide Ohhhh that's interesting, I hadn't heard that they were still working on it! There's only one Magic Dock station in my area but I should give it another go to see if the speed has improved any!
This effect is also common on 200KW EVgo chargers. Those cables aren't actively cooled so they're limited to 200A, which means 400V EVs will only get around 60-80kw. My EV6 will get double that on those types of stations.
12:49 There appears to have been an update on this front. Out of Spec reached out to a Cybertruck owner who was seeing 320+ kW on a "V3+" that appears to be feeding 900 A rather than doubling the voltage. This makes sense because, so far, we haven't seen Tesla bridge the voltages on their V3 cabinets and dispensers, and the beefier cables they are using on the V4 dispensers appear to be rated for 800 A (making 900 A a roughly similar boost to what they feed through their 631 A rated V3 cables). So I guess you could say that it looks like Tesla is doubling down on current rather than doubling up on voltage. 😀
Previously Saw Kyle's post..... was thinking during it..... Hope The fire insurance is paid up.... 🤣🤣..... Since the v3 cables and handles already had overheating issues....
Yet another win for 800V architecture. Fast charging on 400V (or in the case of the small battery Blazer and a lot of older Teslas, below 300V) is just so much more difficult because of the high amperage requirements. The rating of chargers should be split for 400v or 800v. Might be more confusing for the ignorant, but a little education would be helpful. I’ve seen a “150kw” charger that was limited to 150A, which is the maximum a Bolt can charge at. Most cars would top out about 55-60kw on that “150kw” charger. It would only be able to charge 150kw on a car with 1000V battery which, as far as I’m aware, only the Lucid comes close to that.
Power sharing across all the dispensers would be the logical infrastructure build out. There was little foresight with offering a selection in energy speeds, maybe equipment capability was limited at the time, IDK, but the equipment is now available woth little excuses to maintain the status quo on existing sites. A price premium at 350+ kw would help keep a stall open, but a busy station will still force a Kona or Bolt EV to charge on said unit, penalizing those drivers on costs.
Maybe there should be a pricing incentive on the lower speed chargers. Of course, nothing matters when there's only 1 open/working charger when you arrive.
I was thinking pricing surcharge. Give them a notice that says "You can charge at station 3 if you want but it will cost you more. Got to station 1 for regular pricing. Call us if station 1 is broken".
I would think that the voltage/current variations between automakers is one of the reasons why EA's charging deployments have moved away from the 2x350kW + 2x150kW setup to a 4-6x 350kW "blended" setup with fewer/no CHAdeMO chargers going forward. EVgo, meanwhile, still seems committed to installing mixed setups at their non-Pilot-Flying J sites.
As an Ioniq 6 owner with a small battery, I don't care about a 150 or 350kW charger. On a 150kW charger I top out at 150kW and at a 350kW charger I top out at just under 170kW... right, not gonna notice that one. As long as I don't need to fast charge at a 50kW charger, and yes, they do still exist, I'm happy with any fast charger.
Maybe a different EV connector for the different types of voltage, thus preventing someone from connecting to a HV charger and let it sense any adapter, thus preventing the cheaters.
why are we in this timeline? ..... realistically though.... we should discourage CPOs from having setups like the old EVGo and Electrify america, and go to more distributed power setups... so power can be dynamically moved around to whomever needs it.... so if that granny is charging to 100% it means more electrons for someone else on a different station. makes infrastructure and build out so much better for everyone. And also, I dont see why any vehicle should be designed today less than 500 volts...
Alex in your "X month living with the Blazer EV" video, can you please talk about how much not having CarPlay has affected you. I'd like to get the Blazer but as an Apple Music subscriber, I can't bring myself to accept listening to music via bluetooth.
Good video! From what I’ve read elsewhere, the current Ultium modules are internally wired 3P8S to get that 29v/module, but GM has/had planned 2P12S modules to get maybe 43v/module. Then they had all the issues with module assembly and they stuck with trying to make that 3P8S module work in everything. I wonder if they can switch to 2P12S modules in the future for these smaller packs for higher voltage charging as they get caught up on their module assembly lines?
@EVBuyersGuide Possibly but doubtful.... Since those components can handle a range of parameters, specifically in terms of voltage and amperage. And it wouldn't be surprising, if some of the components were from the higher voltage Ultium vehicles What's the proof that those specific components can't handle the higher voltage? Just curious, since the reply was so short and definitive.
I’ve spoken with the Ultium engineers in detail about this. The reason they have not used the higher voltage modules in an Ultium vehicle yet is that it would require a unique set of components. The current design chargers and inverters are designed for the 8-12 module batteries (we have yet to see an 8 module version), and there was supposed to be a common set of components for other variants, but we don’t have those yet.
@@EVBuyersGuide That still doesn't address possible scenarios. For example why they didn't use the higher voltage modules for the 8 module packs. Since they already have higher voltage components from the 12 module packs And which could have resulted in higher DCFC performance. At the average 150 kW charger. It just would have cost more. Since mass producing the same lower voltage output modules across the lineup is more cost effective. Seems like the bean counters won. Just a thought for future EV posts how about if you get some OEM engineers to talk about the design of EVs? And why certain decisions were made? Straight from the horse's mouth. talking about horses, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough lol... Thanks for the feedback.
All Charging (outside your garage) sucks. Most sucks badly. EVs should be able to add 300 miles of range in 10 minutes. About 30% of Americans are apartments or Condos when they can’t charge and will have to rely on urban chargers. With average miles driven of 15,000 miles, people will need to use 300 miles of range per week. So if you are charging from 20% to 80% or 70% of capacity you need about 450 miles of range in your car to get 315 miles for the week in ideal conditions. If you are in cold weather to account for will need close to 600 mile range. This will mean we need solid state batteries to be commercially available in EVs at reasonable prices.
150kw also cost a lot less than the 350kw charger at the stations I have charged at. I drive a bolt euv so the 50kw is perfect and I laughed seeing the 350kw chargers costing $0.25/kw more than the 150kw and below.
Good to know that the higher cost of the 350kW DCFC is finally being passed along (since from an econ standpoint it is much more rational, but not the norm).... And I'm happy that the glacial charging rate of your Bolt, makes it amusing for you ;)
@@alexkleine9737 Who and where is there a price difference between 350 and 150 dcf Chargers? That's the more Salient issue to me... Fwiw, it's a great city/town car, when you can charge it at night... but not everybody wants to spend more time eating than traveling.... Have a nice day, my trigger friend...
Another example where Tesla did it right by not having different power outputs. All the units are the same at that location. If version 1,2,3, or soon 4 all work the same and just plug in.😊
@davidws5439 "Tesla did it right" lmao ... tell that's a cybertruck owners... who have to use CCS, to get decent charging times.... have fun rationalizing the facts;).... btw Tesla is testing higher voltage at a few superchargers, so even your last pedantic point is incorrect...
So what I'm hearing constantly is how great the ultium platform is, but every car they put out with it charges like crap or has something else wrong like what you point out here. 800v architecture really seems to be the best for what people want from charging.
@@ChristopherFerguson Vehicles. The Chevrolet Silverado EV and GMC HUMMER EV both charge at 370+ kW, and they average 250 kW from 10% to 80%. Big batteries have big benefits, including fast charging and long range.
@@newscoulomb3705 thanks for the info. I still think the platform is overhyped considering how large the battery needs to be in order to charge at an acceptable rate...
@@ChristopherFerguson Again, you're using "acceptable" synonymously with "best in the industry." I agree that the C rate could be better, but there's always a trade off between energy density and power density. And the first-generation NCMA Ultium cells appear to be the most energy dense cells currently used production EVs. Also, if anything, I would say that Ultium has been one of the most *underhyped* platforms. I'm not just saying in comparison to Blade and E-GMP, which deserve a lot of credit, or to Tesla's failed 4680 initiative. I'm saying that even industry experts such as Munro & Assc. actively misled their viewers by omitting a number of key details and important information about Ultium batteries during their teardown.
Hi Alex, my 2024 Blazer EV identical to yours suffered a catastrophic failure with the HVB and DRIVETRAIN, after a week at the dealer it was deemed as "unfixable" and therefore I must initiate a buyback 😢 It only has 350 miles on it.....this sucks
How did you measure the voltage? Most CCS stations don't display that info, however the 697V battery could logically hit a max charge voltage of 750+ volts because charge voltages are higher than the pack nominal voltage when charged.
@@MichaelPanzer I wish ours did. Sometimes stations will and sometimes the app will shows a charge log, but mostly there's no info. At the charger before the voltage loss to the pack ~800V sounds logical, our OBD2 monitoring at the pack level usually shows lower, with a max of around 3.8V per cell.
I don't get it. Why aren't these companies creating standardized metrics to allow seamless charging, route planning etc ? I thought they were creating a charging network together to challenge EA?
GM is building a network, though many EV news outlets are reluctant to really talk about it. I featured one of the first "Ultium Ready" EVgo charging locations several years back, and since then, GM Energy/EVgo have built several hundred 350 kW split-power charging stations across the country. Most are isolated to metro regions right now, but GM Energy/EVgo are also partnered with Pilot Flying J to build out a number of travel corridors featuring these 350 kW chargers. So at least within the GM ecosystem, they are directly supporting this battery configuration.
Your closing statement about the Bolt still applies to the Blazer. In the 37 minutes for the 10-80 that station could have charged 2 eGMP cars. And the 45 when it was hot may have allowed up to 3.
The simple answer is: only have one power level, like Tesla duh! Most Americans have to remove their socks to count pas 10, and you want them to calculate KWh 😂
I think they are going to have to increase the fan speed in the gm ev's because it sounds like the batteries are overheating and causing them to derate and if the fan speed increase doesn't help it they may have put more fans or a higher output fan on the vehicles or they could go back to the drawing board and redesign the battery but I think the fan will be the cheaper one I would try first
It’s not a fan speed issue, this is simply the station not able to deliver the current required for charging. The charge curve was absolutely identical in 110 degree weather vs the 65 degree day when we did this
@@EVBuyersGuide that's not the anecdotal evidence that's coming back from users..... Temperature definitely has been a factor..... Where is your test reporting coming from?.... Did you do the tests yourself? It's more of a factor for superchargers that tend to derate but even CCS.... And again I'm referring to the Chargers not the EV... But they both can be a factor... This is why I like this channel to do this kind of testing fwiw...
We don’t deal with anecdotes. We own a Blazer EV and have done extensive testing in temperatures from 110 to 50. We’ve road tripped it twice with 3 charging stops each. EV charging curve dips often have more to do with battery temperature monitoring, charging will slow to let the management systems see how temperatures and voltages level off in the pack. There are many different philosophies at play here so not every company chooses the same path.
In response to the chargers, the original commenter was not referring to the CCS stations. On the station front, the ABB chargers EA uses certainly overheat and derate in hot weather
@@EVBuyersGuide If you're doing all this non-annecdotal scientific testing, it's a shame you're not posting about it. (I have not seen it on EVBG, I'll go check later to see if I'm missing something) And of course battery overheating is a factor, but it's widely reported and understood that DCFC components also overheat, reducing the charging rate. And one trick has been putting a cold rag over the handle. Tesla has just updated its SC software to prevent that strategy from being effective. Hopefully we'll get some posts about DCFC based on a scientific breakdown of your experience. Or even just some anecdotal examples would be appreciated ;)
Personally, I'm not sure why this is as much of an issue as it is because most EVs on the road today can barely break 200 kW peak on a 350 to 400 kW charger, and most new chargers are power sharing anyway. The 85 kWh Ultium's 150 kW peak is on the lower end for charging speeds on a 350 kW charger, but it's not really that much slower than the typical 170 to 180 kW that most EVs will see on a 350 kW. The other irony here is that many "800 V" cars will only see minimal time gains by using 350 kW instead of 150 kW. For instance, the ~75 kWh E-GMP EVs only gain about 4 minutes at most by using the 350 kW charger. It does make me wonder why GM didn't choose to go with a 120s2p configuration for these 10-module Ultium batteries. I can only assume that the limitation is in the BMS or motor controller, though I would think it should be fairly easy to upgrade the motor controller to allow for up to 500 V DC peak input. If there isn't a strong reason for them to limit these to 80s2p (other than 3p modules being all that's available right now), we could be looking at some fairly low-hanging fruit for future Ultium models, with 85 kWh packs having 420+ V nominal. Going a little deeper down that rabbit hole, if I'm right, these first-gen Ultium cells are likely true 2 C cells, so even at 120s2p, they could accept a full 400+ A. At that point, we should be seeing more consistent charging speeds with ~170 kW peak on the 85 kWh Ultium EVs.
The fact that GM chose to put out garbage batteries that can't max out ANY charger and that someone chose to buy that garbage is their problem. Don't make it everyone else's problem. This is like arguing a car that can only do 60 MPH should be allowed to camp in the fast lane because the slow lane has trucks that mean they can only go 55. Nope. Get out of the way. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
So the big question now is.....what will GM do with the new Bolt EV? I guess they will go LFP which solves these issues? Because if the voltage is low for a 10 module ultium, it would be really low in a 8 module "bolt size" pack. Since GM has invested so much into Ultium already, I don't see them changing the battery to allow for higher voltage, so I would suggest they bump the battery size to 12 modules across the board. This would also boost range up to class leading. Maybe make the awd ultium suvs carry a larger battery which would make them over 300mi.
I think the high vehicle prices, crappy infrastructure (in Ireland) and all this complexity that you describe in this video, are the reasons why I'm much less interested in EVs than I was 5 years ago.
Too much drama in refueling. Maybe at the time of beginning of the charge session it was the only one available or working. Now the Bolt is coming to the used market. New EV owners may not know. Perhaps it was the only one available when they arrived. If you act like a Karen, they aren't going to move
Why GM would put such low voltage in such big vehicles is very suspect. Its almost like they still don't really want EV's to do well. They have a long history of this kind of behavior.
What's the significance of that comment? From a DCFC station with a 200-amp limit, bZ4X would be able to pull 71 kW. That seems slow until you realize it is a constraint with regard to pack voltage of 355. Since Blazer & Equinox are quite a bit lower, at just 288 volts, max rate from that same DCFC would only be 57.6 kW.
It's worth noting that the HPC150 standard allows for a peak current limit of 500A, however most 150 kW stations you'll encounter out there are limited to 350A. This also causes issues at some of the even lower limit stations out there, we've found some of the new 7-Elevation branded stations limit current to 250A so they had a limit of around 70 kW on the Blazer at 5% SOC.
Really good job Alex, explaining technical concepts in simple terms. While you could have resorted to the formula VxI=W, I think what you did makes it far more accessible to people who's current understanding of formulas is limited to what goes into a baby's bottle. Shame the US is stuck with 120V at the wall.
True, for conceited individuals who don't even understand that 120 volts is safer, information needs to be simplified.... FWIW the US has higher voltage receptacles, when needed...
And in NorCal, the number one reason a slow charging car is at a 350kW charger is that it was the only one available when it was that car's turn to charge. There is also a 200A cable limit on some chargers which does not help the situation.
Yeah you don't often get to choose; it's just whatever is working and available when it's your turn
Only a fool expects a Bolt or Kona owner to pass up the only free charging station because it a 350kWh unit.
Seems we are lucky here. Hadn't had any issues with waiting on chargers yet. Recently in France I stopped at a station with 10 brand new 350kW stations. Not sure what the total limit is when all in use, but it worked flawless for me. Otherwise it is usually 4 to 6 chargers at between 200kW and 400kW
I've always felt the solution to the "car using the wrong charger" situation was just to deploy more 350kW chargers vs trying to teach the general public "charging etiquette".
People forget that the most prolific charging provider to date has emphasized high-current charging at 400 V. When GM finally gets access to the Tesla Supercharger Network, those V3 Superchargers with 631+ A service will likely be the #1 choice for 85 kWh Ultium EV drivers.
The problem with trying to deploy more 350kW is that you need higher quality components and permitting for it. Unlike gas, where any pump and fuel is roughly the same, a higher DCFC means everything about it is faster....is it fair to pay the same $/kWh for a 350kW vs a 150kW?
With destination chargers in California already costing around $0.50/kWh at 250kW, trying to go for 350kW is going to break the gas savings argument.
Lovely Logic just install more expensive dCFC.... can't believe anybody likes the OC..... sMH
@newscoulomb3705 yep, but the last choice for high kWh Ultium EV drivers.
@@terrancecloverfield6791yeah I think the problem there is California
I didn’t know pack voltages varied so much, since everyone just says 400V or 800V. All the nuances to charging is definitely very confusing for the average consumer.
The big problem is that it is complex and not something you can explain in 2 senctences. People just want something easy like higher number is better. And the automotive world has always been that way Fortunately more and more DC Fast Chargers are becoming 350kW chargers, which also fixes the problem.
This is 100% the fault of EA for installing different level charging posts. I’ll never fault a user for pulling up to a post and just using it. Too many entitled drivers.
Thank you for explaining this. I realized this on my EV6 pretty early when I saw that it would get something like 180 kw on the 150 kw chargers. I started charging on the 150 kw chargers because they seem more reliable to me. It doesn’t hurt the charging time too much either. Maybe like 6 minutes longer than on the 350kw charger (I’m usually only trying to recharge 150 miles of range to get to the next charger). I also was thinking it would preserve my battery to charge on the 150kw chargers. But that doesn’t seem to be the case with new research. Seems like you can do whatever you want to an EV battery and it will be just find for 10+ years haha.
I really wish everyone would go to higher voltage cars. It would bring down costs for everyone. And it would make charging easier for cheaper vehicles. My EV6 never seems to have thermal struggles with charging. Even on these insanely hot days, the charging speed never seems to be affected (unless it is being limited at the station, I’ve seen some stations that wouldn’t give 86 kwh no matter what car you had). So if everyone moved to say 800v, you could charge an equinox at 200kw with just 250 amps. That’s nothing when it comes to heat generation. Should be super easy to cool that battery down.
You’re not entirely wrong, but you’re missing some info; info that’s really only relevant if you’re wanting to propose a sane solution, rather than simply saying “just go to a higher voltage”, which isn’t helpful.
First off, I’ve got to assume we’re all familiar with how series and parallel connections work. The first thing to know when designing a battery pack is how much power it’ll be expected to provide at maximum; the second is what portion of that peak power will be a “normal” (“sustained, not changing by much”) load. Once you know those, you get the specs of the cells you’re using; particularly the voltage ranges and the capacity in Amp Hours. Now, you take the capacity of the cells, and see how many it would take to sustain the “normal” load, plus a ~15% margin for error. For example, the Nissan LEAF. The peak expected demand is 250 amps, and “normal” load is around 80. The cells are 75 Amp Hours, so 2 cells in parallel should sustain it for just under 2 hours (ignoring losses for now, to keep this much simpler). This is the arrangement of the pre-40kWh LEAF packs; 2 cells in series to make a group, 2 groups in parallel to make a module, and all modules connected in series to bring the voltage up. With this design in mind, there are 2 ways to bring the voltage above the ~380v peak; add more modules, which adds more weight and may require other changes (suspension, frame rails, heavier wheel bearings, etc) or take away the parallel cells and make the whole pack all-in-series and set a lower peak power. Keep in mind, less power (in amps) available to the inverter that drives the motor, means slower acceleration and less range at higher speeds (where you draw more amps). Now yes, higher voltage DOES allow more amps to flow for the same amount of heat/loss, but which is more important; less heat generated in the battery pack when fast charging, or being able to drive for longer? And even if you prioritize the fast charging, there’s another variable; with no cells in parallel, and all cells in series, the power MUST flow through each cell in sequence; a single cell that’s as little as 0.003 ohm higher resistance can mean that one side of the pack reaches its “fully charged” voltage while the other side is significantly lower. By having cells in parallel in there, you give the incoming charge a “way around” the higher resistance cell, so that voltage imbalance can be minimized (though not completely eliminated), even if it does cause a bit more wear and tear to the “parallel” cell there. There’s a fair bit more that I’m skipping over, but this is already a massive wall of text; sorry, but this is as condensed as I can get it.
I had no clue about this subtle issue. You have explained it in a great way. Thanks you!
Thank you for supplying the public with knowledge. It is hard to explain to the general public that just because the specification has a maximum, doesn't mean the company designed their equipment to the maximum. OEM's are doing a disservice to their customers by not being transparent or explaining this in layman terms.
Agreed! There are three factors (amps, volts, watts) mathematically related yet each will have its own maximum limit in both the charger and the car. Ideally both would report the limit being encountered, but as companies like to point fingers if at least they each reported the others limiting factor it would be very helpful. Helpful not only for the frustrated driver, but perhaps also so that driver could explain to others frustrated while waiting.
I wonder what a few kwh of super capacitors costs... Take 5-10kwh of power quickly, and then feed it to the battery after disconnecting from the charger. Some claim supercaps would also help regen, but I'm not sure about that.
Wow Alex, excellent info and thank you very much for this. We have 2 EVs in our household - a Tesla and Rivian so we are lucky to have access to the Supercharger network plus more. And even with this, one thing we've learned is that you have to pack all the patience with you when road tripping. We've also seen our fair share of charging challenges and learn every time in planning. It's getting better, but plan, plan and bring your patience along with you. The benefits of having an EV do outweigh the costs of owning ICE vehicles for us.
Thanks, this is a pretty nuanced wrinkle in the ultium platform design. Good info.
Thanks for talking about this. It has been the case for many, many years dating back to the 50kW cars. I had a Focus Electric that never charged at 50 kW until 2018 when I could plug into a 150kW EA station, then I got the full capability of the car.
ANY 150kW rated car plugging into a 150 kW rated station will not get full charging speed, it just gets worse as the battery voltage gets lower.
The problem will also come down to next available stall. It was a bad idea to create different speed chargers and not differentiate the price. If I show up with an EV and there is a queue, I shouldn't have to verbally negotiate with others who will jump line or which speed you're waiting for.
Charging stations should have a single lane to park in as you approach the chargers, so that consumers can see that queue as they approach. That queue should dictate who is next and that person should mive to the next available (working) charger. Lights at the to of the charger should indicate if they are available (green), occupied(blue or orange?) Or inoperable(no light or red).
If a station has two speeds of chargers they should have two queues, and people should have the choice to get in whatever queue they want. As you've seen with tour Blazer experience, it's wrongheaded to assume you know which speed station someone should be using. Almost always, the next available station is the right one to go to, as EV adoptiin increases and DC Fast charging becomes a supply limited service. It will not scale well for a number of reasons including station cost, demand charges, profitability, and excessive charge times. If you need to go far, people may be inclined to charge above 80% knowing there will be lines at all the next available stations. Stupid games that Kyle Conner and Byorn play with discharging to 3% SoC and only charging to 40% only to hop to the next charger in less than one hour at 85 mph, will not work when we have 2 hour queues.
This is great information. Thank you. Explains a lot. Around here it’s more expensive to use the 350 unit rather than the 150 unit. We find with the Bolt most 50 kW stations are free (and inconvenient) so there you go.
Thanks for diving into the specifics! Electricity is more complex after the surface level numbers and this video helps with that! Thanks!
That’s really interesting. In my Ioniq 5, the difference between a 150, and a 350 is only a few minutes to go from a low stage of charge to 80%. That assuming the EA station is working properly.
some great knowledge shared here!
Great work Alex that video should be played at all bevs showrooms across the usa it would help the salespeople and the customers alike. 🍻
This is a failure on the chargers cutting corners and not the manufacturers. The chargers should just be 350kw, and it should scale itself down as needed. Even if it cost 15-20% more for the chargers, long run they wouldn't have to be replacing them and wouldn't have to deal with the negative publicity inhibiting growth.
I can send you a car scanner screenshot of my EV6 charging at 789V when at I was at 92.5% SOC. I believe the EV6 is approaching a full 800V at 100% SOC.
I have also achieved 185 KWH from a 150 KWH station in my preconditioned EV6 when a BZ4X was locked with no driver in sight at the 350 KWH station 45 minutes into their charge session taking 27 KWH with the outside temp of 28F.
the vast majority of ppl dont understand this. they just see bigger number better. until there is a cost difference, no one will change behavior. dont forget where the avg intelligence stands....
the vast majority of ppl that denigrate the average intelligence of the population...
don't appreciate the complexity of the issue... but ironically that apparently proves their point.... nvm ;)
(and creating a cost difference would be a motivating factor? no duh)
This is why, especially during busy times, I'm in favor of per minute pricing at fast charging stations.
@@nc3826
People want to charge and go. Not be an electrical engineer over charging. Just only puts a sour taste in their mouth,.....I made a mistake in this purchase.
Still don’t
My favorite is the Bolt driver on a 350! That guy is so awesome.
Not to be mean but Bolt drivers should be just charging at home and not leaving town period. It's like taking a kids tricycle to an adult bike race. Please get a other car for traveling!
Awesome video, Alex! Great info and explanation.
Makes sense that the stations have a max current limit. It’s because of heat buildup (or energy loss), which is proportional to current squared.
Also some 350KW stations are rated at 1000VDC at 350A. Delta actually makes a 350KW station that has a max 540A output. And GM cars will take that current (EVgo uses these stations)
All of the GM Ultium vehicles need 500A to hit peak charge speeeds.
GM uses the same module across 5 (currently) different battery pack sizes. This means that some configurations end up operating at a lower voltage. However this also brings manufacturing scale and reduces costs. It's a trade off. The video misses the 14 module pack that is currently used as the base pack for Brightdrop and will be used in the up and coming 2WT 2025 Silverado EV.
Thank you for the information. I have seen the same results on my VW ID.4 Pro S AWD.
Excellent explanation!
So I think this is probably the *real* reason people shy away from EVs. I love EVs and 99% of this video goes right over my head. Most people don't care to know what type of engine they have in their ICE car, I don't imagine they care to know the math on how their EV charges. Gas stations are easy. You don't have to guess which station is most optimal or most courteous for the car you have, you just pick the one with the shortest line. And if someone doesn't understand EV charge rates, of course they are going to pick the one that advertises the fastest charge.
Yeah, the closest analog on the ICE side is if there are limited diesel pumps and making sure you don't block one off if you don't need it (and have a choice). Much simpler than the EV side at the moment.
Thank you for reminding me why I'm going to stick with ice.
Heat losses go with Amperes squared, so higher voltage operation is not only faster, but also cheaper. I think those heat losses are causing overheating and current limitations on those chargers.
IONIQ5, EV6 can chaerge 150Kw~180Kw in 150Kw charger.
It is why 800V system is a important.
And, time is money.
GREAT explanation. Love it!
@EVBuyersGuide … fantastic and knowledgeable video for the drivers who think why it’s taking an hour to complete charge from 20-80%…. I like your TShirt… can u give me a link
I was charging my Ioniq 5 with a EA 150 kW charger instead of a 350 kW charger and thought if I am charging at a slower speed it will be better for the battery. Maybe this is wrong?
I read somewhere that in order for a 400 V charger to charge a 800 V battery, Ionic 5 has a part that was used to convert the 400 V to 800 V. I think this will be bad for the car and not efficient at using a 350 kW charger.
Thank you for this video. I like what GM did Ultium but I wish they had gone with higher voltage for the battery modules. Maybe 40 volts per modules. I don't know. Higher Voltage, Lower current, the better for thermals and efficiency.
All of this just says to me it's still a wild west out there in EV charging land. I suspect that most people just pull up, go with whatever has the "highest number" with a plug that fits, with no thought to whether their vehicle can actually take advantage of said number.
A very good solution to prevent slow charging cars to use the faster chargers is making the payment on that fastcharger much more expensive. 350KW is more than double 150KW.
The payment rate should be done for each minute of charging, not how much KWH is charged. This also prevents people to hang out there until 100% charging is finished.I know it will make charging cheaper for faster charging cars....nut also: Most of the expenses of the charging station is the investment, not the real price of electrcity. And you could tell that you hire that piece of equipment for those minutes.
And the real fast charging cars woud not pay to much ...only a little higher than with a 150KW equipment.
Sounds a bit stupid, what if in the future only super quick chargers are around. The price should at least be reasonable if that happens.
Quite interesting. Never realized this. My 400V EV (BMW) actually has a nominal voltige of just over 400V and a 500A charge limit.
I do get annoyed with chargers being advertised as 200kW, and arriving there and seeing the small print on the charger saying: 200kW on 800V and 120kW on 400V. Luckily those are not on the motorways, but near shops.
I think the dividing line on 400V vs 800V is pricing. There will be plenty of 400V EVs coming out. 800V will be geared for more expensive/premium/luxury EVs. For example, the EV3 vs the EV6.
At least until the component prices come down. 400v capable electronic components are pretty common because 240v A.C. in residential service has a peak voltage of nominally 340v but over 400v is still within spec. A typical switching power supply has to be able to rectify and chop that voltage and the same type of components are used in motor controllers and battery chargers. Any components for higher voltage are industrial or special purpose which makes them much more expensive, beyond just the additional capabilities.
@@Sylvan_dB Not quite sure about that. Its 400V DC which I don't think a lot of equipment use? I know EVs use 400V DC heat pumps. Charging stations want 480V AC from the utility. This causes CPOs in Europe to install their own substations to avoid extra step up transformers from 400V which would introduce more losses. Most utilities don't have 480V transformers in their stock as its not used.
The 400V 3-phase is common around the world. At least in Europe that is the common voltage. They then use L-N to get 230V for the different circuits in the home.
There are 3 different sets for this though. Areas with 220V use 380V and 240V will have 415V.
The US is a mess of voltages: 120V L1/3-N, 240V L1-L3 and 208V 3-phase L2-N
I believe this is the common setup used but without L2 to homes that would give 208V. These are split phase or high delta.
You also get 208V L-L with a Wye(Star) setup but then you loose 240V and get 120V L-N.
The US also uses 480V 3-phase where you get 277V L-N for industrial supply.
Recently I had an EV6 rental, needed to top it up before returning. So we plugged it into a Tesla Supercharger with Magic Dock, and at 80% SoC was getting 100kwh deep into 90% SoC. Of note; all other CCS native chargers I tried that day failed due to mechanical issues with the dispensers. Tesla magic dock being better designed literally saved the day.
Ur giving EV owners too much credit to think they think about this stuff. Most are just, give me a charger and have no idea what a KWH is.
On my EV6 I've been able to get about 97 kW on the Magic Dock Superchargers; not amazing, but much better than I expected
Our Ioniq 5 holds at the same 97 kW throughout most of the charge curve when using a Magic Dock equipped SC.
Tesla and Hyundai/Kia have been working on the compatibility issues. It seems that most, but not all Magic Docks have been updated and of course V4 stations don't have the issue at all.
@@EVBuyersGuide Ohhhh that's interesting, I hadn't heard that they were still working on it! There's only one Magic Dock station in my area but I should give it another go to see if the speed has improved any!
This effect is also common on 200KW EVgo chargers. Those cables aren't actively cooled so they're limited to 200A, which means 400V EVs will only get around 60-80kw. My EV6 will get double that on those types of stations.
Yep, and the 7-Eleven 7 charge stations
12:49 There appears to have been an update on this front. Out of Spec reached out to a Cybertruck owner who was seeing 320+ kW on a "V3+" that appears to be feeding 900 A rather than doubling the voltage. This makes sense because, so far, we haven't seen Tesla bridge the voltages on their V3 cabinets and dispensers, and the beefier cables they are using on the V4 dispensers appear to be rated for 800 A (making 900 A a roughly similar boost to what they feed through their 631 A rated V3 cables). So I guess you could say that it looks like Tesla is doubling down on current rather than doubling up on voltage. 😀
Previously Saw Kyle's post..... was thinking during it..... Hope The fire insurance is paid up.... 🤣🤣..... Since the v3 cables and handles already had overheating issues....
GM crippled charging on these cars by reducing the voltage of the pack when they made the pack smaller.
Yet another win for 800V architecture. Fast charging on 400V (or in the case of the small battery Blazer and a lot of older Teslas, below 300V) is just so much more difficult because of the high amperage requirements.
The rating of chargers should be split for 400v or 800v. Might be more confusing for the ignorant, but a little education would be helpful. I’ve seen a “150kw” charger that was limited to 150A, which is the maximum a Bolt can charge at. Most cars would top out about 55-60kw on that “150kw” charger. It would only be able to charge 150kw on a car with 1000V battery which, as far as I’m aware, only the Lucid comes close to that.
Power sharing across all the dispensers would be the logical infrastructure build out. There was little foresight with offering a selection in energy speeds, maybe equipment capability was limited at the time, IDK, but the equipment is now available woth little excuses to maintain the status quo on existing sites.
A price premium at 350+ kw would help keep a stall open, but a busy station will still force a Kona or Bolt EV to charge on said unit, penalizing those drivers on costs.
Just got a blazer ev. I’ve never used a fast charger. Which should I use?
Maybe there should be a pricing incentive on the lower speed chargers.
Of course, nothing matters when there's only 1 open/working charger when you arrive.
I was thinking pricing surcharge. Give them a notice that says "You can charge at station 3 if you want but it will cost you more. Got to station 1 for regular pricing. Call us if station 1 is broken".
What about 250kw station? Looking along a common route there is a stop that has 16 250kw nacs chargers. Unsure if it isTesla network or not.
I would think that the voltage/current variations between automakers is one of the reasons why EA's charging deployments have moved away from the 2x350kW + 2x150kW setup to a 4-6x 350kW "blended" setup with fewer/no CHAdeMO chargers going forward. EVgo, meanwhile, still seems committed to installing mixed setups at their non-Pilot-Flying J sites.
As an Ioniq 6 owner with a small battery, I don't care about a 150 or 350kW charger. On a 150kW charger I top out at 150kW and at a 350kW charger I top out at just under 170kW... right, not gonna notice that one.
As long as I don't need to fast charge at a 50kW charger, and yes, they do still exist, I'm happy with any fast charger.
In the upper midwest, 50kw chargers comprise more than 75% of DC charging options, particularly in more rural areas.
Maybe a different EV connector for the different types of voltage, thus preventing someone from connecting to a HV charger and let it sense any adapter, thus preventing the cheaters.
Alternatively, if you have a 500V battery you could get 175kW from a 150kW station
I have a Bolt EUV the only time I use the 350,if that's my only choice.
why are we in this timeline? ..... realistically though.... we should discourage CPOs from having setups like the old EVGo and Electrify america, and go to more distributed power setups... so power can be dynamically moved around to whomever needs it.... so if that granny is charging to 100% it means more electrons for someone else on a different station. makes infrastructure and build out so much better for everyone. And also, I dont see why any vehicle should be designed today less than 500 volts...
Same happens to polestar 2 as well
Alex in your "X month living with the Blazer EV" video, can you please talk about how much not having CarPlay has affected you. I'd like to get the Blazer but as an Apple Music subscriber, I can't bring myself to accept listening to music via bluetooth.
Good video! From what I’ve read elsewhere, the current Ultium modules are internally wired 3P8S to get that 29v/module, but GM has/had planned 2P12S modules to get maybe 43v/module.
Then they had all the issues with module assembly and they stuck with trying to make that 3P8S module work in everything.
I wonder if they can switch to 2P12S modules in the future for these smaller packs for higher voltage charging as they get caught up on their module assembly lines?
It has a wireless BMS to accommodate that change.
Yes, but it would require that the motors, charger, and inverters get redesigned for the higher voltage packs
@EVBuyersGuide Possibly but doubtful....
Since those components can handle a range of parameters, specifically in terms of voltage and amperage. And it wouldn't be surprising, if some of the components were from the higher voltage Ultium vehicles
What's the proof that those specific components can't handle the higher voltage? Just curious, since the reply was so short and definitive.
I’ve spoken with the Ultium engineers in detail about this. The reason they have not used the higher voltage modules in an Ultium vehicle yet is that it would require a unique set of components. The current design chargers and inverters are designed for the 8-12 module batteries (we have yet to see an 8 module version), and there was supposed to be a common set of components for other variants, but we don’t have those yet.
@@EVBuyersGuide That still doesn't address possible scenarios. For example why they didn't use the higher voltage modules for the 8 module packs. Since they already have higher voltage components from the 12 module packs And which could have resulted in higher DCFC performance. At the average 150 kW charger.
It just would have cost more. Since mass producing the same lower voltage output modules across the lineup is more cost effective. Seems like the bean counters won.
Just a thought for future EV posts how about if you get some OEM engineers to talk about the design of EVs? And why certain decisions were made? Straight from the horse's mouth. talking about horses, I think we've beaten this dead horse enough lol... Thanks for the feedback.
So basically this is unacceptable charge time for a modern EV. Even in a 350kwh station.
All Charging (outside your garage) sucks. Most sucks badly. EVs should be able to add 300 miles of range in 10 minutes. About 30% of Americans are apartments or Condos when they can’t charge and will have to rely on urban chargers. With average miles driven of 15,000 miles, people will need to use 300 miles of range per week. So if you are charging from 20% to 80% or 70% of capacity you need about 450 miles of range in your car to get 315 miles for the week in ideal conditions. If you are in cold weather to account for will need close to 600 mile range. This will mean we need solid state batteries to be commercially available in EVs at reasonable prices.
Looking at that charge 10 to 65% charging is the way to go for a road trip
So were gonna get lines at charging stations like they have in the bay area? I want EVs to take over, but I can see why some are hesitant
150kw also cost a lot less than the 350kw charger at the stations I have charged at. I drive a bolt euv so the 50kw is perfect and I laughed seeing the 350kw chargers costing $0.25/kw more than the 150kw and below.
Good to know that the higher cost of the 350kW DCFC is finally being passed along (since from an econ standpoint it is much more rational, but not the norm).... And I'm happy that the glacial charging rate of your Bolt, makes it amusing for you ;)
@@nc3826 It takes me just long enough to eat lunch or a nice breakfast while the car charges. 40 minutes is my sweet spot.
@@alexkleine9737 Who and where is there a price difference between 350 and 150 dcf Chargers? That's the more Salient issue to me...
Fwiw, it's a great city/town car, when you can charge it at night... but not everybody wants to spend more time eating than traveling.... Have a nice day, my trigger friend...
Another example where Tesla did it right by not having different power outputs. All the units are the same at that location. If version 1,2,3, or soon 4 all work the same and just plug in.😊
Tesla does have different power outputs because there are various different Supercharger versions which have different max output capabilities
@EVBuyersGuide I started that in my comment. They are all the same at the location, yes, different versions.
@davidws5439 "Tesla did it right" lmao ... tell that's a cybertruck owners... who have to use CCS, to get decent charging times.... have fun rationalizing the facts;)....
btw Tesla is testing higher voltage at a few superchargers, so even your last pedantic point is incorrect...
So what I'm hearing constantly is how great the ultium platform is, but every car they put out with it charges like crap or has something else wrong like what you point out here.
800v architecture really seems to be the best for what people want from charging.
The fastest charging EV on the road currently is an Ultium platform.
@@newscoulomb3705 can you tell me the vehicle? Cause I'd love to add it to my list of options.
@@ChristopherFerguson Vehicles. The Chevrolet Silverado EV and GMC HUMMER EV both charge at 370+ kW, and they average 250 kW from 10% to 80%. Big batteries have big benefits, including fast charging and long range.
@@newscoulomb3705 thanks for the info. I still think the platform is overhyped considering how large the battery needs to be in order to charge at an acceptable rate...
@@ChristopherFerguson Again, you're using "acceptable" synonymously with "best in the industry." I agree that the C rate could be better, but there's always a trade off between energy density and power density. And the first-generation NCMA Ultium cells appear to be the most energy dense cells currently used production EVs.
Also, if anything, I would say that Ultium has been one of the most *underhyped* platforms. I'm not just saying in comparison to Blade and E-GMP, which deserve a lot of credit, or to Tesla's failed 4680 initiative. I'm saying that even industry experts such as Munro & Assc. actively misled their viewers by omitting a number of key details and important information about Ultium batteries during their teardown.
Hi Alex, my 2024 Blazer EV identical to yours suffered a catastrophic failure with the HVB and DRIVETRAIN, after a week at the dealer it was deemed as "unfixable" and therefore I must initiate a buyback 😢 It only has 350 miles on it.....this sucks
What would happen if you started at 20% and went to say 90% for faster charging.
My Ioniq 5 with the 73kwh battery goes up to 800v while charging 🤔
How did you measure the voltage? Most CCS stations don't display that info, however the 697V battery could logically hit a max charge voltage of 750+ volts because charge voltages are higher than the pack nominal voltage when charged.
@@EVBuyersGuide our stations here in Germany always show voltage
@@MichaelPanzer I wish ours did. Sometimes stations will and sometimes the app will shows a charge log, but mostly there's no info. At the charger before the voltage loss to the pack ~800V sounds logical, our OBD2 monitoring at the pack level usually shows lower, with a max of around 3.8V per cell.
Good presentation. I will keep parking at a 350kW charger if available since I want to charge at the highest possible speed. Thanks!
*cries in bolt euv abysmal charge curve tears..
I don't get it. Why aren't these companies creating standardized metrics to allow seamless charging, route planning etc ? I thought they were creating a charging network together to challenge EA?
GM is building a network, though many EV news outlets are reluctant to really talk about it. I featured one of the first "Ultium Ready" EVgo charging locations several years back, and since then, GM Energy/EVgo have built several hundred 350 kW split-power charging stations across the country. Most are isolated to metro regions right now, but GM Energy/EVgo are also partnered with Pilot Flying J to build out a number of travel corridors featuring these 350 kW chargers. So at least within the GM ecosystem, they are directly supporting this battery configuration.
Your closing statement about the Bolt still applies to the Blazer. In the 37 minutes for the 10-80 that station could have charged 2 eGMP cars. And the 45 when it was hot may have allowed up to 3.
Moral of the story: stay hybrid.
The simple answer is: only have one power level, like Tesla duh! Most Americans have to remove their socks to count pas 10, and you want them to calculate KWh 😂
Ouch man 😂!
I think they are going to have to increase the fan speed in the gm ev's because it sounds like the batteries are overheating and causing them to derate and if the fan speed increase doesn't help it they may have put more fans or a higher output fan on the vehicles or they could go back to the drawing board and redesign the battery but I think the fan will be the cheaper one I would try first
It’s not a fan speed issue, this is simply the station not able to deliver the current required for charging. The charge curve was absolutely identical in 110 degree weather vs the 65 degree day when we did this
@@EVBuyersGuide that's not the anecdotal evidence that's coming back from users..... Temperature definitely has been a factor..... Where is your test reporting coming from?.... Did you do the tests yourself?
It's more of a factor for superchargers that tend to derate but even CCS.... And again I'm referring to the Chargers not the EV... But they both can be a factor... This is why I like this channel to do this kind of testing fwiw...
We don’t deal with anecdotes. We own a Blazer EV and have done extensive testing in temperatures from 110 to 50. We’ve road tripped it twice with 3 charging stops each. EV charging curve dips often have more to do with battery temperature monitoring, charging will slow to let the management systems see how temperatures and voltages level off in the pack. There are many different philosophies at play here so not every company chooses the same path.
In response to the chargers, the original commenter was not referring to the CCS stations. On the station front, the ABB chargers EA uses certainly overheat and derate in hot weather
@@EVBuyersGuide If you're doing all this non-annecdotal scientific testing, it's a shame you're not posting about it. (I have not seen it on EVBG, I'll go check later to see if I'm missing something)
And of course battery overheating is a factor, but it's widely reported and understood that DCFC components also overheat, reducing the charging rate. And one trick has been putting a cold rag over the handle. Tesla has just updated its SC software to prevent that strategy from being effective.
Hopefully we'll get some posts about DCFC based on a scientific breakdown of your experience. Or even just some anecdotal examples would be appreciated ;)
Personally, I'm not sure why this is as much of an issue as it is because most EVs on the road today can barely break 200 kW peak on a 350 to 400 kW charger, and most new chargers are power sharing anyway. The 85 kWh Ultium's 150 kW peak is on the lower end for charging speeds on a 350 kW charger, but it's not really that much slower than the typical 170 to 180 kW that most EVs will see on a 350 kW. The other irony here is that many "800 V" cars will only see minimal time gains by using 350 kW instead of 150 kW. For instance, the ~75 kWh E-GMP EVs only gain about 4 minutes at most by using the 350 kW charger.
It does make me wonder why GM didn't choose to go with a 120s2p configuration for these 10-module Ultium batteries. I can only assume that the limitation is in the BMS or motor controller, though I would think it should be fairly easy to upgrade the motor controller to allow for up to 500 V DC peak input. If there isn't a strong reason for them to limit these to 80s2p (other than 3p modules being all that's available right now), we could be looking at some fairly low-hanging fruit for future Ultium models, with 85 kWh packs having 420+ V nominal. Going a little deeper down that rabbit hole, if I'm right, these first-gen Ultium cells are likely true 2 C cells, so even at 120s2p, they could accept a full 400+ A. At that point, we should be seeing more consistent charging speeds with ~170 kW peak on the 85 kWh Ultium EVs.
The fact that GM chose to put out garbage batteries that can't max out ANY charger and that someone chose to buy that garbage is their problem. Don't make it everyone else's problem. This is like arguing a car that can only do 60 MPH should be allowed to camp in the fast lane because the slow lane has trucks that mean they can only go 55. Nope. Get out of the way. You made your bed, now sleep in it.
It’s not the batteries per se, it’s the way they chose to wire them up. I
So the big question now is.....what will GM do with the new Bolt EV? I guess they will go LFP which solves these issues? Because if the voltage is low for a 10 module ultium, it would be really low in a 8 module "bolt size" pack. Since GM has invested so much into Ultium already, I don't see them changing the battery to allow for higher voltage, so I would suggest they bump the battery size to 12 modules across the board. This would also boost range up to class leading. Maybe make the awd ultium suvs carry a larger battery which would make them over 300mi.
The different battery gives them a chance to use a completely different voltage so we'll see what they choose...
Seems like a huge miss by GM. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Or better just get a gas or hybrid car
I think the high vehicle prices, crappy infrastructure (in Ireland) and all this complexity that you describe in this video, are the reasons why I'm much less interested in EVs than I was 5 years ago.
Too much drama in refueling. Maybe at the time of beginning of the charge session it was the only one available or working.
Now the Bolt is coming to the used market. New EV owners may not know. Perhaps it was the only one available when they arrived. If you act like a Karen, they aren't going to move
Why GM would put such low voltage in such big vehicles is very suspect. Its almost like they still don't really want EV's to do well. They have a long history of this kind of behavior.
So GM decided to save a few bucks and clog up the fast chargers? Sounds about right
BZ4X takes 35-45 minutes 😂
What's the significance of that comment? From a DCFC station with a 200-amp limit, bZ4X would be able to pull 71 kW. That seems slow until you realize it is a constraint with regard to pack voltage of 355. Since Blazer & Equinox are quite a bit lower, at just 288 volts, max rate from that same DCFC would only be 57.6 kW.