In “One Man’s Mountains”, the late Tom Patey was leading on the Eigerwand when he announced to his partner that “I’ve found a boot”. The late, great Don Whillans responded with “Is there a foot in it?” at which Patey hurriedly dropped said boot.
Wouldn't make more sense to follow the fall line of George Mallory from the ice axe location to were his body is, continue that line down the mountain to find the most likely place Andrew Irvine's body came to be on the glacier. Mallory did have rope marks around his body as well as the rope still around him with a broken end it would make sense that they were roped up and fell together. In the fall the rope snaps Mallory body falls down the mountain comes to rest in whats known now as the Mallory basin where he remains to this day. Irvine either comes to a stop higher up the mountain and body has shifted down the mountain over there years or he fell past Mallory off the bottom edged of the basin down to the glacier.
I agree, apparently Mallory's body has vanished though. Mark Synnott and Jamie McGuinness couldn't find it anymore in 2019 even though they knew the exact location and had the coordinates for it...
@@mitchr1080 It is generally agreed that the fall did not take place where the ice ax was found. Mallory is too far down and a few hundred feet south off the fall line. Where Irvine initially ended up is unknown. He may have initially fallen thousands of feet to the glacier. Or he could have been swept there later. Once on the glacier, it has moved him further.
Your theory is certainly plausible. I like it! I believe Wang's 1960 sighting of Irvine, so that would imply that your first hypothesis is the most likely: Irvine came to a stop high on the mountain and later went downhill through either natural or manual means.
I don't completely agree . Chin is looking to the south, since we can't see any mountain behind him. So the foot must be close to the Eastern wall of the glacier, contrary to what is drawn in the google earth picture and to what is said. And my other point of disagreement is that Mallory and Irvine must have been roped on the descent and when they fell down, the rope broke (it was still on Mallory in 1999) and they got separated. Mallory fell and stopped but was injured whereas Irvine stayed well above close from the location of the fall (8600m) but alone, lost in the dark, exhausted and maybe also injured, wasn't able to continue. Tried to get some rest and died where he was lying. And if they find the body of Irvine, they'd rather look for typical summit rocks, Mallory said they would bring back, instead of a probably destroyed camera.
Fabulous interview. As an amateur, I was able to follow the conversation regarding the rims of a glacier and the body moving more slowly than in the middle. Also, I need to look at a graphic of the second and third step and their proximity to the couloir to get the rest of the story
My Grandmother documented everything. She sewed or printed by permanent marker her name on things. I'm 61 and STILL have a bath towel that has her name clearly there
1. They made the summit via the Norton Couloir. 2. Most people die on the descent. 3. Mallory and Irvine, exhausted, cold, hypoxic, and in poor conditions, took a fall whilst roped together. 4. The Chinese found Irvine, took the camera, couldn't develop it, and flung his body off the mountain. 5. Mallory is found in 1999. 6. Irvine's foot is found on the glacier, below where the Chinese threw him off. The rest may turn up out of the glacier.
That’s Michael Tracey’s theory. And while he brands himself with logic and critical thinking, he propounds his theory, based on speculation and conjecture-which is all that anyone can do at this point-as definitive and implies those with other theories are conspiratorial and/or illogical. The “zigzag” up the Norton Couloir sounds theoretically possible and much more logical choice than the Second Step, but statements from other expedition members suggest that at that particular time the footing very slippery and insecure due to the ambient conditions. This is what leads other to theorize that they may have tried the Second Step despite Mallory’s stated misgivings about it. We’ll likely never know, so no one is entitled to be making definitive statements about it either way. The speculation is fun, and we should all do it in community in good faith and camaraderie instead of the pejorative, judgmental tone that MT often uses.
Your 6-step hypothesis is plausible but unconfirmed. Thanks to brainstorming. As Dr. Edwards says at 34:00, we don't know if they took a camera on their final climb. Therefore, if we never find the camera, that doesn't mean the Chinese took it.
@@bernie4268 Because sinister conspiracy theory. Because what do the Chinese care about the camera or the Mallory team? They would be spending considerable funds and risking men's lives to retrieve something that has literally no value to them.
Id like to know how far from where Odell saw them that day was Mallory found and now Irvine's foot. ??? I know all of this is conjecture, but it's really interesting!!
We all agree that Sandy's last name was Irvine. What you're really asking is that you want agreement on the *pronunciation* of "Irvine." I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine. However, if you're addressing the subtitles being misspelled, you're 100% correct. In the show notes, I wrote: "SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors." I apologize for not correcting the automatic subtitles. Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine": The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
People suffering from grammar pedantry syndrome or GPS get extremely annoyed by grammatical mistakes and feel the urge to correct each and every one of them.
@@ftapon People suffering from grammar pedantry syndrome or GPS get extremely annoyed by grammatical mistakes and feel the urge to correct each and every one of them.
Not necessarily, there's strong arguments that Mallory suffered an earlier fall further towards the summit, perhaps at the 2nd step trying to get up it, or perhaps somewhere to the west and lower than the 2nd step if indeed they tried that route that people say they might have, where you'd traverse along just below the 2nd step over into that area I believe is called the Norton colliur (spelling might be wrong for colliur), where the infamous "zig zag" maneuver would bring you up right about where the third step is, they theorize if he had a first fall in one of those locations it could be where the rope broke, either way at that point Irvine might have left Mallory, perhaps thinking he was dead or maybe to go back to their camp hoping to catch someone there that could go back with him or on their own, whichever, to help Mallory, but Irvine not making it to the camp and not being back by the time Mallory figured he should be then decided, most likely un the dark, to try making it back himself and had the fatal accident where he was found years later. I favor the theory that there was 2 accidents because then things fit that never made sense about the accident happening up the ridge from where Mallory was found, one of the biggest problems with that has always been that Mallory was found in an area not too steep but near the bottom of it, had he fallen from the ridge it's much steeper down the where the less steep area is he slid almost all the way to the bottom of, others that have fallen from the ridge their bodies are found at the bottom of the steepest part and stop there instead of sliding down to where Mallory was, and their bodies are twisted and mangled, not like Mallory's, the guys who found Mallory themselves found bodies at the top of the slope were Mallory was that'd fallen from the ridge that were twisted and mangled and have all said that was something that didn't make sense looking at the area and comparing where they were, the condition of their bodies and where Mallory was and the condition of his, face down with arms out and fingers digging in obviously trying to stop his sliding, i agree that he hadn't fallen from the ridge and instead was traversing across the slope further up but not all the way up at the base of the cliff where all the bodies are that fell from the ridge are, and somewhere just above where his body was found slipped and slid down that far managing to stop himself, at that point after having been previously injured (I'll get to something about that in a second), being exhausted and in bad shape from having been out of oxygen for some time just couldn't manage to get back up especially after his leg breaking during that spill he laid there and said his goodbyes, evidence that he'd hurt himself previous to that includes his tweed coat, on the front of it on the lapels is blood that isn't in a pattern condusive to blood coming from an injury from a face down fall according to an ME in Oregon that it was shown to, he agreed it was more like blood from a facial injury that got on the front of that jacket from wearing it for some time after the injury, as if it'd dripped down and not splattered there from a fall. There's also problems with the ice ax found almost 10 years later in the 30's on the ridge that was always thought to be Irvine's, Dr Edwards here says in his book and the interview earlier this year on this channel that it's a full six inches shorter than should be for a man the height of Irvine, and it is indeed exactly 6 inches shorter than an ice axe 100% known to be Irvine's from another expedition that his family donated to a display in his old room at the university he went to, it was always thought to have been there as a result of the accident having happened there which is almost directly above where Mallory's body was found, but it not being the right height to be Irvine's means it might have been a spare they took along that was given to them by a porter that was with the expedition, if that's the case they might have left it there to mark where their oxygen bottles were found years later, they might have left them there for coming back down the mountain and used the ice axe to mark their location in case they were covered by the snow. Watch the video on this channel with Dr Edwards from about 4 months ago, it's really good. Edit: also watch an interview with Jake Norton that i believe is on the channel Everest Mysteries, or perhaps his own channel, Jake Norton, where he talks about taking Mallory's jacket and showing it to the ME, Jake is one of the guys who found Mallory and has excellent insights into things.
@@leroydb6342 Are you referring to the one where he theorizes that the fall was at the 2nd step? And there's a guy who posted a video with a really interesting theory about a fall well past where Mallory's body was discovered, even beyond where the proposed Zig Zag maneuver is thought to have been tried by them, instead of them attempting it they kept going west (?), not real sure about the direction but it's simply keep moving in the direction you'd go to where the Zig Zag would be done but keep going past it, there's a location that if you then went upwards from it you'd be at the base of the summit pyramid, the video creator thinks Mallory's first fall could have happened there, and Irvine would have gone for help leaving him there then after a while when Mallory figured he wasn't coming back tried to get himself down, it's a very interesting theory and he has a picture that's got good detail showing the area they'd have tried going upwards at and it certainly looks possible, I can't remember the name of the channel but I just saved it into my watch later category last night after stumbling across it again, I first saw it months back and could have kicked myself for not saving it then because there was times I wanted to watch it again or reference it to people, I can't post links from a cell phone but I'll go find it and post the name of the channel and title of the video in an edit to this post.
@@leroydb6342 Is it his one theory where he believes the accident happened at the 2nd step when they were trying to get up it? I think Jake's had several different theories about where a first accident could have happened in different interviews on other people's channels along with videos on his own, Jake's good and I like his disposition, he's always clear that his theories don't have any more credibility than anyone else's including people who just watch videos on Mallory and Irvine that have theories, he doesn't have a big head like a certain very toxic person who has a channel and is always accusing Jake and the other guys on the team that discovered Mallory's body of ridiculous conspiracy nonsense, someone who I won't name, MT but there's a clue, that guy's so toxic I blocked his channel because I just don't like people like that, I don't care if his thoughts on Mallory and Irvine turn out to be true, I just won't listen to someone sitting around spitting venom at people. There's another channel where a guy made a video suggesting a location for a fall Mallory could have taken and then Irvine went for help, didn't make it, then Mallory after a while figuring Irvine wasn't coming back tried to get himself down then had the spill where he was found, it's a pretty convincing theory to, he believes they went under the 2nd step like others believe they did but instead of going up where people believe they did a Zig Zag trying it they instead kept traversing along to a point where if they climbed up they'd have been at the base of the summit pyramid, he's even got a detailed picture of the area he thinks they'd have tried going upwards, which is where he believes Mallory had his first fall, the one that broke the rope and where Irvine would have left from trying to get help, the picture has real good detail and it definitely looks like you could climb up to the base of the pyramid there. I can't post links on a cellphone which is all I have but the name of the channel is Dan Amos and the videos title is "14 minutes on how and where George Mallory gave up his 1924 Everest summit attempt". Check it out it's pretty interesting.
With as much as I heard about “we need to find the camera” I just took for granted that people knew he had a camera. It’s interesting to find out that there might not even BE a camera to find. In that case then would they have taken rocks from the summit to prove they were there? Would they have left a flag, chiseled something into a rock up there or hid something as proof?
Yes, I'm sure they would have left something on the summit (perhaps an empty oxygen canister or other token) and taken rocks with them. Some make a big deal that Mallory supposedly said that he would leave a photo of his wife on the summit, and no such photo was on his dead body, implying that he left it on the summit. If they chiseled something or hid something substantial as proof, Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay would have found it (or anyone after them). I always doubted that they summited because they didn't leave anything obvious at the summit. I gave it 30% odds. However, Dr. Edwards's book shifted my thinking, so now I'm 70% sure they made it. SPOILER ALERT: Dr. Edwards doesn't argue that they made it. He lays out the facts and lets the reader decide. In conclusion, the only way to prove they summited is to find summit rocks on Sandy's body. Now, we just need to find the rest of his remains...
We need to analyze the ice immediately around the foot including rock and dust particles. Crystallization can also indicate age of the ice. Compare this profile to higher areas on the glacier to determine where it came from and start searching up from there.
I hate that the Chinese authorities have to be involved…anything involving the Chinese authorities IE government is super sketchy at best. I don’t mean that as a racial slur either, just that any communist government is all about subterfuge etc.
Oh dear, another low-brow mean intellect emerges from under a rock. So, the USA has never, ever caused subterfuge, hmmmm? Vietnam, Afghanistan, Oliver North....... should we go on??
He seems a genuine bloke, but as much as anyone might try to be objective and without conjecture, the lack of corroborating evidence effectively renders everything subjective and prone to personal interpretation, which is always subconsciously conditioned by people's interest, involvement and opinions on the issues. To me the find of an isolated boot/foot neither adds nor removes nor resolves anything surrounding the uncertainty of when, how and it what circumstances M&I came to their end. A fabulous story none the less.
@@glenbetton3146 I'm sure Dr Edwards would agree with you. He's cautious about speculating as you can tell and for the reasons you cite. I'm the one who pushes him to speculate.
Don't agree with this entirely. Puts to bed the theory that he fell down the Kangshung face, that he was removed entirely from the mountain by the Chinese. For sure it raises many new questions but it does not lead to the conclusion you reach to in this comment.
It would be interesting to know whether the body the Chinese claimed to have recovered was actually fully intact. If this foot was broken off in a fall, or at any point in the intervening decades on its journey down the mountain, then they may have taken what they found. This foot may have been elsewhere on the mountain.
The question of how the body moved once reaching the glacier is mostly moot in my opinion. A glacier is basically a river of ice and rivers have currents and don’t just move in one direction; so we will likely never know the body’s exact path once he arrived on the glacier. The interesting question, to my mind, is when and how did Mr. Irvine’s body arrive on the glacier from above?
@@ftapon I will say that the good doctor’s statement saying Acham’s Razor implies human endeavor creates an unnecessary extra step (I am clearly paraphrasing here), is not necessarily accurate. From the standpoint of a person from a Western culture, that statement makes perfect sense. But, this all happened in what is now Modern China. I’m not calling any balls and strikes on either culture being “better”. But I can fell pretty confident saying the, in that Chinese culture, human endeavor to remove an “unsightly” body adjacent to a climbing route is a very plausible hypothesis. Especially considering the eyewitness report from 1960. Of course it is also possible the European body sighted in 1960 was from an unrecorded or illegal expedition as well. Which is why I say the “body thrown down” hypothesis is just that. A compelling hypothesis but still an hypothesis without much more evidence.
@@graydoncarruth5044 you make an excellent point about it being possible that Chinese culture would want to quietly remove an unsightly body near a climbing route. Occam's razor really wouldn't refuse such a simple hypothesis. The one issue where I might disagree with you is that you think there might have been an illegal or secretive climb before 1960 that attained 28,000 ft. That is doubtful 🧐
@@ftapon Full disclosure I am far from an expert on this in any way and could be completely wrong. I just find mysteries like this fascinating and also hope for closure for the families of all involved in said mysterious disappearances. My understanding is the body sighted in 1960 was around the 25-26k elevation; just below the “death zone”. And that is what led to my conjecture of it possibly beings a different climber. If I’m wrong about that I’m happy to be corrected. Again, I’m nothing but an interested amateur at most.
@@graydoncarruth5044 I appreciate your humility on this issue. I'm also an amateur who could be wrong and many things. Here's what Perplexity wrote: the 1960 sighting of a dead Englishman was at what altitude The 1960 sighting of a dead Englishman, believed to be Andrew "Sandy" Irvine, was reported at an altitude of approximately **8,600 meters (28,000 feet)** by Wang Fuzhou, a member of the Chinese expedition. He noted that the corpse was identifiable as European due to the clothing worn by the individual[1][4]. Additionally, another sighting in 1975 reported a body at around **8,100 meters (26,600 feet)** by Wang Hongbao, which is also thought to potentially be Irvine's[1][3]. Citations: [1] Andrew Irvine (mountaineer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Irvine_(mountaineer) [2] George Mallory - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mallory [3] Everest's enduring mystery: Were Mallory and Irvine first to conquer ... english.elpais.com/sports/2023-06-13/the-most-sought-after-camera-in-the-world-that-could-rewrite-the-history-of-everest.html [4] Timeline of Mount Everest expeditions - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Mount_Everest_expeditions [5] British explorer's remains found on Mount Everest after 100 years www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mount-everest-explorer-andrew-sandy-irvine-body-george-mallory-national-geographic-b1187242.html [6] NOVA | Transcripts | Everest: Mystery of Mallory and Irvine - PBS www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/26mieverest.html [7] 'It doesn't make any sense': new twist in mystery of Mount Everest and the ... www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/01/it-doesnt-make-any-sense-new-twist-in-mystery-of-mount-everest-and-the-british-explorers-missing-bodies [8] Sandy Irvine on Mount Everest (Who Was He & How Did He Die?) | Ultimate Kilimanjaro www.ultimatekilimanjaro.com/sandy-irvine-on-mount-everest-who-was-he-how-did-he-die/
Not sure about the likelihood of summit rock particles on boot. They may have trodden on very little rock in the summit area even if they got there and a century in ice and snow wil have left the boot soles pretty 'clean'.
So is this guy Jimmy chin going to organize further searches? I understand why they are keeping it a secret but with that knowledge comes the responsibility to track it backwards to maybe the camera.
'Cash labels' are produced to this day. It was and remains a very British public and boarding school practice, to label children's clothes. This habit continued through to university. These labels were embroidered onto cotton tape. I had some done for my children, but hardly got around to sewing them on and they were not sent away to school.. They were and remain very traditional.
Love your analysis otherwise, but I believe you can discount the possible of Andrew falling down the new Norton couloir. How else can we explain the broken rope tied around Mallory’s waist with the massive hemorrhaging other than him being physically tied to Andrew at the point of their fall? Much more likely he fell at the same point Mallory did as Mallory is on the fall line beneath the ice axe
I asked Perplexity about your comment and this is what it spit out: George Mallory's body was discovered at approximately 8,155 meters (26,760 feet) on the North Face of Mount Everest in 1999, while Andrew Irvine's ice axe was found at a higher elevation, around 8,450 meters (27,720 feet), in 1933. The locations of these findings have led to considerable speculation regarding the circumstances of their deaths. ## Location of Findings - **Mallory's Body**: Discovered in a basin that is roughly 300 meters below the last known camp used by the climbers, indicating he fell from a higher point on the mountain[2][4]. - **Irvine's Ice Axe**: Found about 250 yards east of the First Step and approximately 60 feet below the crest of the ridge[4]. This location is considered to be where Irvine may have dropped the axe during their ascent. ## Relationship Between Locations The geographical relationship between Mallory's body and Irvine's ice axe suggests they were not found on a direct fall line from one another. Jake Norton, who participated in the 2001 expedition, noted that while Mallory's body lies in a natural fall line from the ice axe location, it is unlikely that the fall originated from where the axe was found. He argued that the terrain at the ice axe site does not support a fatal fall leading to Mallory's resting place[3][5]. ### Key Observations - **Terrain Analysis**: The area where Mallory was found is characterized by steep and treacherous terrain, making it improbable for him to have fallen from the ice axe location directly. Instead, it appears he may have survived for a period after his fall[3]. - **Historical Context**: The ice axe was likely dropped or left behind intentionally during their climb, as mountaineers typically do not regard their axes as encumbrances[4]. This further complicates theories about the exact sequence of events leading to their demise. In summary, while both findings are crucial to understanding Mallory and Irvine's final moments on Everest, they are situated in such a way that suggests different circumstances surrounding their respective ends. Citations: [1] ua-cam.com/video/IuvUjozPkbU/v-deo.html [2] secretsoftheice.com/news/2017/04/02/everest/ [3] jakenorton.com/windproof-suits-and-68-year-old-crackers/ [4] malloryandirvine.com/2017/04/26/irvine-ice-axe/ [5] jakenorton.com/what-really-happened-to-mallory-irvine-part-iii/ [6] www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/sandy-irvine-body-found-everest [7] www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/27/experts-doubt-mallory-everest-axe [8] www.alexroddie.com/2014/03/george-mallory-ice-axe-auction/
We know they were were descending at night from Mallory’s snow goggles being in his pocket, so it follows that they were extremely fatigued after climbing all day. I love Jake Norton but anyone can slip anywhere when you are dead tired. He also said Mallory IS on the fall line from the axe. It was suggested immediately when the ice axe was found that it was the location of a fall and I think that makes the most sense by far. I don’t know how many guys are carrying extra ice axes up the mountain to use as markers- we don’t have any evidence of all the numerous British climbs of any other party doing that to my knowledge. Also why on earth would Mallory keep a broken bloody rope cinched around his waist if he did not die where he fell? That would be so incredibly odd for someone in the position to do.
Mallory was tied to a snapped rope which means he was roped up with Irvine. If he was coming down on his own having left his companion, he would have carried the rope coiled around his chest ready for use in order to abseil down when needed.
I am not persuaded by the scenario suggested. If Mallory left Irvine, why was there a broken climbing rope around his waist? This suggests they were roped together when Mallory fell and Irvine was left alone. Also, if Mallory did fall from near where Irvine was first sighted, he would have fallen some distance, which is consistent with his injuries, so his position relative to camp 5 is coincidental. I also think it highly likely they would have taken a camera; why wouldn't they? Remember, an absence of evidence is not evidence of an absence.
I agree, the rope around Mallory's waist indicates they fell together. Doesn't make any sense for Mallory to drag or carry short broken off rope around his waist alone from the couloir to his fall line.
I agree! Assuming Irvine's dead body was spotted high on the mountain in 1960, Irvine died ABOVE Mallory. This implies that Mallory fell, not Irvine. The rope broke or compressed around Mallory as he fell. Irvine perhaps was yanked down, suffering a traumatic amputation of his ankle (or breaking it severely), and came to rest well above Mallory. Both were incapacitated and died of exposure. After 1960, natural (or human) forces caused Irvine to tumble down the mountain, where his broken ankle came off. What do you think? Plausible?
@@ftapon I think too that this is the case. Mallory fell and Irvine was left alone and he died either on the ridge from exhaustion OR while he was trying to descent all alone. In this case they will probably find his body in a completely different side of the mountain than the one that Mallory's body was found because he descended further down and perhaps fell at a completely different place and side of the mountain. I'm pretty sure that when they will find his body he probably won't have any rope around his waist. I don't think that his leg was amputated while he was still alive because in this case his sock would have been soaked with blood. The leg could separate from his body if his body was enclosed into ice or fell further down after his death. If his body was into ice I don't think that they will find it in good condition.
Of course they carried a camera, Sandy was photographing all sorts and wrote about it in his diary, it's silly to say they didn't. Of course the camera will be annihilated and show nothing, but they definitely took one, silly to assume they didn't take one, no idea why this "expert" thinks they didn't
@@annnee6818 the expert didn't say that they didn't carry a camera, he just said that there's no irrefutable evidence in their inventory list that they brought it on the day that they went for the summit. Read his book for details.
Irvine fell and the rope snapped - Mallory continued the descent without Irvine, but chose to keep the rope around his body in an emotional response to losing Irvine - still attached somehow. Mallory took a fall and broke his leg and gave up knowing that there was no Irvine to take him back to safety.
I have a variation in your theory. Sandy fell, perhaps taking Mallory with him. Regardless, Sandy's ankle broke severely from the fall. He suffered from traumatic amputation. This is severe damage: the limb may be partially detached, with only a few ligaments or tendons holding it in place. Mallory told Sandy to wait overnight while he fetched help, knowing Sandy would probably die high in the mountain, which is where the Chinese climber Wang found him in 1960. Racing downhill in the darkness and being oxygen-deprived, Mallory made a fatal slip and plummeted to his death, where we found him in 1999. An avalanche after 1960 transported Sandy down to the glacier, ripping his nearly amputated foot off. The rest of his body lies within the glacial ice. A variation to this is that the Chinese (or someone else) tossed his body down the mountain instead of it being a natural process. What do you think?
@@ftapon - could be! such a mystery though. Wonder if the truth will ever be found out. The sunglasses stowed away on Mallory's body is a good clue as to the time of day when the accident happened. My guess is that they did make it to the summit, but didn't have enough time to get back safely.
"the rope snapped". That would have to mean Mallory had tied the rope off around a rock and his waist while Irvine was descending below him and slipped and fell with such force it broke it
@@tonyread7076 I'm not at all certain, but I think it is usual practice for the lesser skilled of two climbers to go down first with the other climber belaying around a rock and paying out rope to assist the other climber. It is said that Irvine was a big man so possibly heavy enough to snap the rope if that is indeed what happened to the rope found on Mallory's body.
Thanks for the video. The problem with people using Occam's Razor is when they fail to include all of the relevant facts. One statement of Occam's Razor is "The simplest explanation is usually correct." This statement needs to be modified to "The simplest explanation that covers all of the facts is usually correct." If we eliminate enough relevant facts, we can always find simple explanations that are completely wrong. I don't know how much the natural processes on the mountain might tend to move a body. I suspect that much depends on where the body has fallen. We know from reports of climbers that many bodies stay in place for years and presumably for decades. If Mr. Irvine's body was in a location where natural processes would be unlikely to move him, then we need some explanation for how he went from that location to the glacier. If natural processes are unlikely to move him from that location, then the simplest explanation becomes that of a person taking his body and throwing it off the side of the mountain. Either way, there had to be an intervening force to throw his body off the mountain. If natural processes are very unlikely, then unnatural (i.e. human intervention) forces can become the simplest explanation. The other possibility is that the Chinese climber didn't see an old body in 1960. The Chinese might have seen that as some kind of good propaganda at one time. I'm not sure why they would invent that propaganda, but if someone in the bureaucracy came to that conclusion, that climber could have been told to concoct that story. I'd also like to hear from someone with experience with glaciers how much a body might be broken up and separated through the natural action of the glacier. If a glacier is unlikely to break up and separate the parts of the body, then I'm more inclined to believe that Mr. Irvine's body was on the upper mountain in 1960 and became separated on falling to the glacier. That idea would apply whether he was thrown off the mountain or fell naturally. I hope that additional explorations can find the rest of his body and answer some questions.
1. I agree with your points about Occam's Razor. 2. To determine whether Sandy was manually tossed down the mountain, we'd need to know where he came to rest. If he came to rest on a steep, precarious, fragile, or avalanche-prone place, natural forces would easily make him slide down the mountain. If he died on a stable platform, then he had to have been tossed. Or he could have slid all the way down to the glacier. All 3 are plausible possibilities. 3. I agree that there's no upside for the Chinese to invent the 1960 sighting of Irvine, which is why it's probably true, which means the first two options above are plausible. 4. Irvine's foot might have torn off from his initial fall. Climbers lose limbs due to fatal falls all the time. You don't need the glacier to have ripped off his foot through a slow process.
@@ftapon Thanks! Your guest spoke about Mr. Irvine being immobilized before he died. That wouldn't seem consistent with a fall that broke off his foot. I can see even a small fall causing a broken bone. That happens all the time in real life. I can't see a small fall removing a foot completely. If he took a fall that was severe enough for his foot to be broken off, he didn't just die from immobility. In that case, he would have suffered blood loss and shock that would kill him quickly. From other videos about the reported sighting, I don't think the body that the Chinese reportedly saw was that far off the regular path. I seem to remember one climber trying to take a short detour off the approved route in order to look for the body. The Chinese guides objected strenuously. If the supposed location of the body was not that far off the route, I'm skeptical of the initial fall removing the foot completely. On the other hand, the initial fall could have broken his ankle. The withering of the soft tissue over the years might have caused separation and led to the foot and the rest of the body being dislodged at different times. In that scenario, the rest of his body may still be where the Chinese reportedly saw him in 1960 and only his foot fell to the glacier. We know that some people have climbed without real guidance. I think one of the more notorious deaths was of a man who went to Tibet to try to climb Everest without any real help. He'd contracted for only the most rudimentary support and ended up climbing solo. I forget whether he died on the way to the summit or on the return. I remember reading his story and seeing videos about him. I mention him because I could see a solo climber who really wasn't a serious mountaineer being off the usual route, coming across a body, and deciding to push the body over the side. Maybe some guy who wasn't thinking clearly anyway and didn't realize the significance of what he was doing removed Mr. Irvine's body. Not that many people have been in that situation, but it would be another explanation. That explanation is less likely but isn't impossible. The value of that explanation is that it doesn't depend on some conspiracy theory. Bad or odd decisions up there are easy to believe.
@@VTPSTTU When Dr. Edwards says that Irvine was "immobilized," he wasn't assuming that Irvine could not have suffered a catastrophic fall that ripped off his ankle. When you're carrying heavy oxygen canisters, and you fall from a great height at the wrong angle, you can sever your ankle. Dr. Edwards wouldn't rule that option out. The ankle could have been partially severed, and birds could have removed the remaining cartilage. Jimmy Chin said they had to take the foot away because birds were feasting on it. The climber you are referring to is Maurice Wilson. In 1934, he attempted to climb Mount Everest with little experience and minimal equipment, driven by a belief that he was guided by God. Initially accompanied by two Sherpas, they left him after assessing the dangers of his ambitious plan. Wilson continued the ascent alone, relying on his faith rather than his climbing skills. He aimed to reach the summit from the north side but succumbed to exposure at around 6,500 meters (approximately 21,300 feet). His body was discovered a year later, and in his diary, his last entry read: “Off again. Gorgeous day”1. Wilson's story is often cited as an example of extreme ambition and a lack of preparation in high-altitude mountaineering. I agree that Irvine's body could have been tossed down the mountain for non-nefarious reasons.
@@VTPSTTU-There are no blood stains on the sock, so the ankle broke apart post mortem. For the OP, if the pressure & weight of a glacier can cause rock to be scoured tand break o the point that it creates different terrains, lakes & rivers, the human body or any body is nothing to the glacier. Because of the thaw/freeze process of snow which creates the glacier happens at different degrees depending on the part of the glacier, his body could've been broken at various times by the glacier. I think it probably broke on the way down & parts are probably in quite a few places. Think about an ice cube that drops on the floor. Irvine's body was literally a brittle ice cube.
I went to school in London in the 60's/70's, and even back then, it was common practice for mothers to sew name tags on their children's clothing. I think this was so that following PE (physical education) or swimming, their children would return home with their own clothes.
Those boots 👢 were made for walkin' but climb is what they did 🎶 one of these days we'll find out 🤞 what happened to that kid; or what the Chinese did; and what the glacier hid 🎶
@@Bob31415 The discovery of Irvine's foot/boot weakens that hypothesis. I think it's 70% likely that we will find the rest of his body on Everest, not in a Chinese freezer. But you could be right!
Does Robert Edwards expect that a detailed particle analysis will be done on the boot? We have all the technology in the world to analyse this boot, the question is will they?
Well they gave it to the the Chinese so I think thats the last we'll ever see of it. The Chinese certainly ill cover up any findings that would prove someone else beat them to the summit.
@@ftapon “It was actually Erich who spotted something and was like, ‘Hey, what's that?’,” says Chin. It was the boot, emerging from the ice." From the Nat Geo article.
@@ftapon How inept are you??? You can't find evidence that Erich found/spotted Irvine's boot first!!!! It's in the film clip!!!!!!!!!!! Time for you to stop pretending you have something significant and factual to add to this recent find. Utter nonsense. You cannot even pronounce Irvine's name correctly.
microscopic pieces of rock could be in the hobnails or in the leather sole. Its unlikely that they survived everything for a century, but still worth a look.
@@Boababa-fn3mr they are, territory belongs to those who have the capability to cultivate and control it. Without the developments from the various empires through history humans would still be nothing more than nomads, only slightly above animals
If Irvine became incapacitated and Mallory headed down, leaving him there, I would think Irvine would have given any camera he carried to Mallory to evidence reaching the summit. Even if they were "on the descent," there remains no proof that they did not simply turn around short of the summit. I do find it interesting that research has been done that indicates there was a "huge pressure drop" on June 8, 1924 in the area. This would indicate that a storm may have occurred and stymied M&I's summit attempt.
Not consistent with the rope on Mallory's body, which suggest at the time of accident Mallory was below and Irvine was above. Wong Hang Bao's sighting in 1970 of an old English dead near the climbing route also contradicts this theory.
J.m.: For Irvine to hand off the camera to Mallory, you're assuming they were next to each other when Irvine became incapacitated. What if Irvine fell far from Mallory (and in the darkness) so that Mallory couldn't get to him? Maybe that's why Mallory abandoned Irvine?
@@ftapon The gentleman in the video is assuming this. What I'm saying is IF he's correct, then he's likely also correct that the camera doesn't exist. Not being able to get to him is only one of many possible reasons why he may have left Irvine to go get help. To quote him - "It's possible in the sense that everything is possible." It's also possible that HACE may have rendered Irvine unconscious - meaning that, if together, Mallory simply may not have been able to move him. In that scenario, Mallory would have probably thought to grab such a camera. If it existed, the camera would have been an item of utmost importance to BOTH of them and they would have made it a priority to get it down rather than Mallory just leaving it in Irvine's hands as Irvine waited on the mountain for Mallory to return with help. He's also suggesting that the evidence points to them being on the descent from the summit, but nothing precludes them having turned around prior to reaching the summit for any number of reasons, even if Odell's sighting is accurate and any or all of the later sightings of a corpse are correct. I understand there is a desire for people to want to put them on the summit, but in the absence of definitive proof, one really has to assume (and yes, it is all assumption) they did not get to that point and the very real possibility that they did not have a camera with them.
@@stewartjohnkingDidn't Odelll also observe snow and high winds and the weather only clearly briefly when he observe Irvine and Mallory near the summit? ETA (after re-reading a few things) - After Odell spotted them, he indicates that the clouds obscured them again. There was also a snow squall that occurred a little later that afternoon (on the 8th). While that squall has been disregarded by some as not being severe enough to have caused Mallory and Irvine a problem, it was severe enough for Odell to have started whistling in order to try to guide M&I to the tents before he realized it was too early in the day for them to be returning from the summit. So I think it's safe to say that visibility higher up on the mountain was also not ideal at that time.
I apologize for not pronouncing Irvine unconventionally. According to Perplexity: The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
Nobody knows how the foot was separated from the body. But I'll throw out my useless theory: Sandy fell, perhaps taking Mallory with him. Regardless, Sandy's ankle broke severely from the fall. He suffered from traumatic amputation. This is severe damage: the limb may be partially detached, with only a few ligaments or tendons holding it in place. Mallory told Sandy to wait overnight while he fetched help, knowing Sandy would probably die high in the mountain, which is where the Chinese climber Wang found him in 1960. Racing downhill in the darkness and being oxygen-deprived, Mallory made a fatal slip and plummeted to his death, where we found him in 1999. An avalanche after 1960 transported Sandy down to the glacier, ripping his nearly amputated foot off. The rest of his body lies within the glacial ice. A variation to this is that the Chinese (or someone else) tossed his body down the mountain instead of it being a natural process. What do you think?
@@1unsung971 Speculation and theories are all one has to go on until more evidence is discovered. At least they found something of his... now they have a clue where to search for the rest of him... not to be disrespectful. The poor fella had a horrifying demise. He was only 22 years old. I feel bad that he never got to live his life to the fullest; he was a very handsome young man.
True, but as Dr. Edwards says, perhaps microscopic summit rocks became embedded in the boot. Moreover, Jim could refer to Sandy's body: perhaps he had rocks in his backpack or clothes. Obviously, we won't know that until we find his body.
Scenario #3: Irvine takes a horrid fall, maybe with Mallory, and some body parts later via avalanche and natural forces made their way down to the glacier. It is possible the camera is still on the mountain. Searches need to continue on the mountain but much lower. I find it unlikely he reached the glacier intact from 27,000ft.
@@ftapon I believe the rope was split and an one end portion missing, suggesting they had been tied together and someone fell, but the rope couldn’t hold. The rope marks on Mallory’s body point towards great tension on the rope producing bruises. So Irvine may have slipped and fell, Mallory tried to save him, but the rope broke and Mallory went for help. The problem being that Irvine’s apparent ice ax was found on the ridge above where Mallory fell which was a long distance away according to the video. By the way, the analysis presented was first class.
I'm not a mountaineer.....I'm not a glaciologist.....I've never been on Everest. I'm not sure this 'expert' has any credibility grounded in relevant personal experience of the subject under discussion!
@@catotjernstad331 I don't know but I assume China has authority on it to some extent. The relatives of Irvine may also have a right to demand it back.
His relatives should get back everything found, it seems like the right thing to do but what do I know. Mallory was buried on the mountain back in the day, and will the same procedure be followed if more remains of Irwine is found?
You said “ the body was possibly moved down the mountain by avalanche! How can this be happen , if the body was seen 1960 on the ridge ? Avalanches are going down a mountain and the ridge is the highest position ????? So it must be moved by people, who did throw the body down for any purpose?!! Next question , the ice axe of Sandy was found also near the ridge , but far away from the second step more down ! So how can be the body up high on 8600 over the 2. Step, when his axe is far more down ??? If you have ideas, please help me to imagine how this all make sense 😄🙏🙏🙏
Judging from the photo, you're right. But it's not "the sole location to search." You can search in glacial crevasses. Yes, it's tedious, dark, and dangerous work, but it's another place to look.
SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors. According to Perplexity: The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
Possibly! It happened April 25, 2015 It was 7.8 Known as the Gorkha earthquake, it triggered a massive avalanche on Everest, resulting in at least 24 deaths at Base Camp and significant destruction across Nepal
I agree that I should have pronounced Irvine's name "correctly." FYI, here's what Perplexity says: The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
8:57 no, you lost me. That story is either not real or he saw Mallory. Irvine fell farther. OBVIOUSLY. Anyone who says otherwise is saying so to keep their narrative going.
It is also said that a Chinese expedition either removed the body or threw the body off the mountain. Perhaps that's how it came to be at the head of the glacier. Just a thought but could be the reason that his foot has been seperated from his body, although I understand that that could happen while travelling the glacier. Amazing that the group from National Geographic weren't even looking for Irvine.
Gandalf spotted Frodo & Sam trudging slowly towards Amon Amarth, between the 2nd and 3rd steps... 100 years later Irvine's boot is found, .. and in his pockets there was perhaps a rock.. I suspect they summited.
We all agree that Sandy's last name was Irvine. What you're really asking is that you want agreement on the pronunciation of "Irvine." I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine. However, if you're addressing the subtitles being misspelled, you're 100% correct. In the show notes, I wrote: "SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors." I apologize for not correcting the automatic subtitles. Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine": The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
That's a bad analogy since you're misspelling my last name. A better analogy would say "TA-pon" or "Taa-pon" or "Ta-PON." If you're referring to the spelling mistakes on subtitles, I addressed that in the show notes when I published the video. If you're referring to the pronouncing of "Irvine" Perplexity helps you out: The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
"Yes of course speculation." So.............worthless. I speculate that Irvine's foot fell off while he was Morris Dancing on the descent in the dark. Could be true.
Should Sandy Irvine be called 'brown boots'? That's how much people cared about 'green boots' - nobody cared enough to know green boot's name. Human nature is sometimes difficult to understand. One dead body is christened as a saint, and another is totally ignored.
@@PatrickDuffy-u3s if green boots had done something truly extraordinary and unusual, we would know the person's name. That's the difference between someone being christened as a saint or ignored. Perhaps it's the wrong thing to do. But that's human nature.
Very irritating listening to podcast host repeatedly mispronouncing Irvine as Irving. Even after guest properly says Irvine with a polite nuanced inflection in his voice. Yikes!
@@jimc3891 I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine. Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine": The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
I haven't listened to this yet, but I don't trust the opinion of somebody who published a book of the subject, because they're going to have a hard time being objective and changing their mind if the evidence disproves their theory.
But his book is full of wrong information correct? He didn't even get the placement of the well documented and geolocated high camps right, so how can you even base a potential theory of a specific climb, routes, and times when you are starting with completely the wrong locations and cherry picking information from pre-expedition and even changed accounts of the original documentation from interviews or eyewitness accounts that differ vastly because they were given decades later?! Do some research of the ORIGINAL source material if you are interested in this topic please, Including the both the photography and meteorological data of the actual weather during Mallory/Irvine's summit attempt... Many "facts" and "historical notations" from the multiple expeditions presented in his book are in direct conflict with the original, still existing journals and documentation! That's enough reason to listen to a random commenter and not an author with specific pre existing theories and beliefs of the matter, also a self proclaimed non mountaineer who has never been to Everest... So I guess you just need to be a successful selling author to be an automatic "expert" on the matter... Much like "Into Thin Air" is taken as factual because it was a popular seller, even though it's FULL of misleading, missing information, and flatout lies, even including contradictions within contained photographs and page to page statements that don't agree with previous statements... Having a popular book does not an expert witness or source make... Many Everest "experts" and similar Navy SEAL "incredible mission" authors should get together and start their own publishing company... That way you can get all the best deliberate misleading information based on opinions presented as fact, without source information citations from one place! 😂 I am still listening and so far I haven't heard anything about changing theories or factual corrections... But thanks for the efforts in producing this content anyway👍Opinions can always be interesting or entertaining 😉
I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine. Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine": The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations: ## Common Pronunciations 1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2]. 2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2]. 3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1]. 4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2]. ## Language Variations The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language: - **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels. - **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds. - **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1]. ## Conclusion Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine." Citations: [1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce [2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine [3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html [4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html [5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk [6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/ [7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco [8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
In “One Man’s Mountains”, the late Tom Patey was leading on the Eigerwand when he announced to his partner that “I’ve found a boot”. The late, great Don Whillans responded with “Is there a foot in it?” at which Patey hurriedly dropped said boot.
I'm English, the sewing of name labels into school uniforms & PE kit was still required in the early 2000s, probably still is.
Yes still is
Very interesting take on the boot finding. Let's hope the rest of sandy is found in the near future.
Hope he's OKAY.
@@MrbfgrayI’m sure he’s doing well
Possibly the Chinese tossed him down the mountain. A common thing.
Be very interesting to see where Mallory’s body was located in relation to Irvines boot.
He looked tad underdressed and dehydrated, sure he's fine tho.
They won’t tell that.
Absolutley amazing video thank you both very much!!
Wouldn't make more sense to follow the fall line of George Mallory from the ice axe location to were his body is, continue that line down the mountain to find the most likely place Andrew Irvine's body came to be on the glacier. Mallory did have rope marks around his body as well as the rope still around him with a broken end it would make sense that they were roped up and fell together. In the fall the rope snaps Mallory body falls down the mountain comes to rest in whats known now as the Mallory basin where he remains to this day. Irvine either comes to a stop higher up the mountain and body has shifted down the mountain over there years or he fell past Mallory off the bottom edged of the basin down to the glacier.
Yes I agree - a very astute assessment.
I agree, apparently Mallory's body has vanished though. Mark Synnott and Jamie McGuinness couldn't find it anymore in 2019 even though they knew the exact location and had the coordinates for it...
@@mitchr1080 It is generally agreed that the fall did not take place where the ice ax was found. Mallory is too far down and a few hundred feet south off the fall line. Where Irvine initially ended up is unknown. He may have initially fallen thousands of feet to the glacier. Or he could have been swept there later. Once on the glacier, it has moved him further.
Your theory is certainly plausible. I like it!
I believe Wang's 1960 sighting of Irvine, so that would imply that your first hypothesis is the most likely: Irvine came to a stop high on the mountain and later went downhill through either natural or manual means.
I don't completely agree . Chin is looking to the south, since we can't see any mountain behind him. So the foot must be close to the Eastern wall of the glacier, contrary to what is drawn in the google earth picture and to what is said.
And my other point of disagreement is that Mallory and Irvine must have been roped on the descent and when they fell down, the rope broke (it was still on Mallory in 1999) and they got separated. Mallory fell and stopped but was injured whereas Irvine stayed well above close from the location of the fall (8600m) but alone, lost in the dark, exhausted and maybe also injured, wasn't able to continue. Tried to get some rest and died where he was lying.
And if they find the body of Irvine, they'd rather look for typical summit rocks, Mallory said they would bring back, instead of a probably destroyed camera.
Everything you wrote is reasonable, and I'm sure Dr. Edwards would agree that what you wrote is certainly plausible. Thank you for your input.
Fabulous interview. As an amateur, I was able to follow the conversation regarding the rims of a glacier and the body moving more slowly than in the middle. Also, I need to look at a graphic of the second and third step and their proximity to the couloir to get the rest of the story
My Grandmother documented everything. She sewed or printed by permanent marker her name on things. I'm 61 and STILL have a bath towel that has her name clearly there
1. They made the summit via the Norton Couloir. 2. Most people die on the descent. 3. Mallory and Irvine, exhausted, cold, hypoxic, and in poor conditions, took a fall whilst roped together. 4. The Chinese found Irvine, took the camera, couldn't develop it, and flung his body off the mountain. 5. Mallory is found in 1999. 6. Irvine's foot is found on the glacier, below where the Chinese threw him off. The rest may turn up out of the glacier.
That’s Michael Tracey’s theory. And while he brands himself with logic and critical thinking, he propounds his theory, based on speculation and conjecture-which is all that anyone can do at this point-as definitive and implies those with other theories are conspiratorial and/or illogical. The “zigzag” up the Norton Couloir sounds theoretically possible and much more logical choice than the Second Step, but statements from other expedition members suggest that at that particular time the footing very slippery and insecure due to the ambient conditions. This is what leads other to theorize that they may have tried the Second Step despite Mallory’s stated misgivings about it. We’ll likely never know, so no one is entitled to be making definitive statements about it either way. The speculation is fun, and we should all do it in community in good faith and camaraderie instead of the pejorative, judgmental tone that MT often uses.
Your 6-step hypothesis is plausible but unconfirmed. Thanks to brainstorming.
As Dr. Edwards says at 34:00, we don't know if they took a camera on their final climb.
Therefore, if we never find the camera, that doesn't mean the Chinese took it.
Why do you say the Chinese threw his body away and took the camera?
@@bernie4268 Because sinister conspiracy theory. Because what do the Chinese care about the camera or the Mallory team? They would be spending considerable funds and risking men's lives to retrieve something that has literally no value to them.
@@bernie4268 Multiple sources claim that they found him and threw his body. It's all hearsay, but it makes sense.
Id like to know how far from where Odell saw them that day was Mallory found and now Irvine's foot. ??? I know all of this is conjecture, but it's really interesting!!
Mallory was find quite a long way away from where Odell saw them which was probably the third step. Mallory was found quite close to Camp 6
Can we agree his name is Irvine?
No joke. Deduct credibility points
Ir-VIN
We all agree that Sandy's last name was Irvine.
What you're really asking is that you want agreement on the *pronunciation* of "Irvine."
I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine.
However, if you're addressing the subtitles being misspelled, you're 100% correct.
In the show notes, I wrote: "SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors."
I apologize for not correcting the automatic subtitles.
Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine":
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
People suffering from grammar pedantry syndrome or GPS get extremely annoyed by grammatical mistakes and feel the urge to correct each and every one of them.
@@ftapon People suffering from grammar pedantry syndrome or GPS get extremely annoyed by grammatical mistakes and feel the urge to correct each and every one of them.
Mallory had a broken rope tied around his waist, so all indications are that a fall separated the two.
Jerky now.
Not necessarily, there's strong arguments that Mallory suffered an earlier fall further towards the summit, perhaps at the 2nd step trying to get up it, or perhaps somewhere to the west and lower than the 2nd step if indeed they tried that route that people say they might have, where you'd traverse along just below the 2nd step over into that area I believe is called the Norton colliur (spelling might be wrong for colliur), where the infamous "zig zag" maneuver would bring you up right about where the third step is, they theorize if he had a first fall in one of those locations it could be where the rope broke, either way at that point Irvine might have left Mallory, perhaps thinking he was dead or maybe to go back to their camp hoping to catch someone there that could go back with him or on their own, whichever, to help Mallory, but Irvine not making it to the camp and not being back by the time Mallory figured he should be then decided, most likely un the dark, to try making it back himself and had the fatal accident where he was found years later.
I favor the theory that there was 2 accidents because then things fit that never made sense about the accident happening up the ridge from where Mallory was found, one of the biggest problems with that has always been that Mallory was found in an area not too steep but near the bottom of it, had he fallen from the ridge it's much steeper down the where the less steep area is he slid almost all the way to the bottom of, others that have fallen from the ridge their bodies are found at the bottom of the steepest part and stop there instead of sliding down to where Mallory was, and their bodies are twisted and mangled, not like Mallory's, the guys who found Mallory themselves found bodies at the top of the slope were Mallory was that'd fallen from the ridge that were twisted and mangled and have all said that was something that didn't make sense looking at the area and comparing where they were, the condition of their bodies and where Mallory was and the condition of his, face down with arms out and fingers digging in obviously trying to stop his sliding, i agree that he hadn't fallen from the ridge and instead was traversing across the slope further up but not all the way up at the base of the cliff where all the bodies are that fell from the ridge are, and somewhere just above where his body was found slipped and slid down that far managing to stop himself, at that point after having been previously injured (I'll get to something about that in a second), being exhausted and in bad shape from having been out of oxygen for some time just couldn't manage to get back up especially after his leg breaking during that spill he laid there and said his goodbyes, evidence that he'd hurt himself previous to that includes his tweed coat, on the front of it on the lapels is blood that isn't in a pattern condusive to blood coming from an injury from a face down fall according to an ME in Oregon that it was shown to, he agreed it was more like blood from a facial injury that got on the front of that jacket from wearing it for some time after the injury, as if it'd dripped down and not splattered there from a fall.
There's also problems with the ice ax found almost 10 years later in the 30's on the ridge that was always thought to be Irvine's, Dr Edwards here says in his book and the interview earlier this year on this channel that it's a full six inches shorter than should be for a man the height of Irvine, and it is indeed exactly 6 inches shorter than an ice axe 100% known to be Irvine's from another expedition that his family donated to a display in his old room at the university he went to, it was always thought to have been there as a result of the accident having happened there which is almost directly above where Mallory's body was found, but it not being the right height to be Irvine's means it might have been a spare they took along that was given to them by a porter that was with the expedition, if that's the case they might have left it there to mark where their oxygen bottles were found years later, they might have left them there for coming back down the mountain and used the ice axe to mark their location in case they were covered by the snow.
Watch the video on this channel with Dr Edwards from about 4 months ago, it's really good.
Edit: also watch an interview with Jake Norton that i believe is on the channel Everest Mysteries, or perhaps his own channel, Jake Norton, where he talks about taking Mallory's jacket and showing it to the ME, Jake is one of the guys who found Mallory and has excellent insights into things.
In Jakes article about the irvine find he is pretty convinced they fell at the same time, tied together.
@@leroydb6342
Are you referring to the one where he theorizes that the fall was at the 2nd step?
And there's a guy who posted a video with a really interesting theory about a fall well past where Mallory's body was discovered, even beyond where the proposed Zig Zag maneuver is thought to have been tried by them, instead of them attempting it they kept going west (?), not real sure about the direction but it's simply keep moving in the direction you'd go to where the Zig Zag would be done but keep going past it, there's a location that if you then went upwards from it you'd be at the base of the summit pyramid, the video creator thinks Mallory's first fall could have happened there, and Irvine would have gone for help leaving him there then after a while when Mallory figured he wasn't coming back tried to get himself down, it's a very interesting theory and he has a picture that's got good detail showing the area they'd have tried going upwards at and it certainly looks possible, I can't remember the name of the channel but I just saved it into my watch later category last night after stumbling across it again, I first saw it months back and could have kicked myself for not saving it then because there was times I wanted to watch it again or reference it to people, I can't post links from a cell phone but I'll go find it and post the name of the channel and title of the video in an edit to this post.
@@leroydb6342
Is it his one theory where he believes the accident happened at the 2nd step when they were trying to get up it?
I think Jake's had several different theories about where a first accident could have happened in different interviews on other people's channels along with videos on his own, Jake's good and I like his disposition, he's always clear that his theories don't have any more credibility than anyone else's including people who just watch videos on Mallory and Irvine that have theories, he doesn't have a big head like a certain very toxic person who has a channel and is always accusing Jake and the other guys on the team that discovered Mallory's body of ridiculous conspiracy nonsense, someone who I won't name, MT but there's a clue, that guy's so toxic I blocked his channel because I just don't like people like that, I don't care if his thoughts on Mallory and Irvine turn out to be true, I just won't listen to someone sitting around spitting venom at people.
There's another channel where a guy made a video suggesting a location for a fall Mallory could have taken and then Irvine went for help, didn't make it, then Mallory after a while figuring Irvine wasn't coming back tried to get himself down then had the spill where he was found, it's a pretty convincing theory to, he believes they went under the 2nd step like others believe they did but instead of going up where people believe they did a Zig Zag trying it they instead kept traversing along to a point where if they climbed up they'd have been at the base of the summit pyramid, he's even got a detailed picture of the area he thinks they'd have tried going upwards, which is where he believes Mallory had his first fall, the one that broke the rope and where Irvine would have left from trying to get help, the picture has real good detail and it definitely looks like you could climb up to the base of the pyramid there.
I can't post links on a cellphone which is all I have but the name of the channel is Dan Amos and the videos title is "14 minutes on how and where George Mallory gave up his 1924 Everest summit attempt".
Check it out it's pretty interesting.
With as much as I heard about “we need to find the camera” I just took for granted that people knew he had a camera. It’s interesting to find out that there might not even BE a camera to find. In that case then would they have taken rocks from the summit to prove they were there? Would they have left a flag, chiseled something into a rock up there or hid something as proof?
Yes, I'm sure they would have left something on the summit (perhaps an empty oxygen canister or other token) and taken rocks with them.
Some make a big deal that Mallory supposedly said that he would leave a photo of his wife on the summit, and no such photo was on his dead body, implying that he left it on the summit.
If they chiseled something or hid something substantial as proof, Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay would have found it (or anyone after them).
I always doubted that they summited because they didn't leave anything obvious at the summit. I gave it 30% odds.
However, Dr. Edwards's book shifted my thinking, so now I'm 70% sure they made it.
SPOILER ALERT: Dr. Edwards doesn't argue that they made it. He lays out the facts and lets the reader decide.
In conclusion, the only way to prove they summited is to find summit rocks on Sandy's body.
Now, we just need to find the rest of his remains...
They definitely took a camera
@@ftapon whatever they left on the summit could easily have been blown off in 30 years, that's not proof they didn't make it at all
I was hoping Andrew Irvine’s remains would be like Mallorys
Don't lose hope. The rest of Sandy's body may be intact.
Mallory lost a chunk of his face, so he wasn't completely intact.
This remained me the Gunther Messner boot found after 52 years in ice under Nanga Parbat. Was the rest of his body found?
They probably were until he was thrown or rolled down into the glacier
@@ftapon was Sandy’s foot skeletal or still skin
@@andreasmith5396 I don't know but I would speculate that it was frozen in a glacier for decades, so a tiny bit of flesh may remain. But I don't know.
Why would Mallory still have a broken rope around his waist if he went for help? They fell togheter and the rope was cut by a rock.
@@Logai74 did he have rope not rope burns around his waist
Absolutely. These people are insane to think otherwise.
@@toniwertman4818 He had both. Google Mallorys body and look at a picture of the full body and you will see the rope.
Who cares. Both jerky now that's all that matters.
@@toniwertman4818 He had both.
Such a fine chap your interviewee.
Every child who has ever gone to camp or to school has had their name sewn into their clothes.
We need to analyze the ice immediately around the foot including rock and dust particles. Crystallization can also indicate age of the ice. Compare this profile to higher areas on the glacier to determine where it came from and start searching up from there.
I hate that the Chinese authorities have to be involved…anything involving the Chinese authorities IE government is super sketchy at best. I don’t mean that as a racial slur either, just that any communist government is all about subterfuge etc.
Yea I said the same thing and was practically called a racist.
Oh dear, another low-brow mean intellect emerges from under a rock. So, the USA has never, ever caused subterfuge, hmmmm? Vietnam, Afghanistan, Oliver North....... should we go on??
@@Letsgetiton41 You should've said China isn't a race, it's a nation. That usually shuts them up.
@@MatthewRX You are absolutely right. It’s a nasty tyrannous regime.
Socialists all fancy themselves master-minds crucial to civilization’s survival.
1.25x speed, youre welcome
A fascinating interview. A few parts of the puzzle are now known, but much more remains a mystery.
national geographic looked for this for a long time and was getting dejected. everyone said keep your chin up
Haha a comedian in the house here
He seems a genuine bloke, but as much as anyone might try to be objective and without conjecture, the lack of corroborating evidence effectively renders everything subjective and prone to personal interpretation, which is always subconsciously conditioned by people's interest, involvement and opinions on the issues. To me the find of an isolated boot/foot neither adds nor removes nor resolves anything surrounding the uncertainty of when, how and it what circumstances M&I came to their end. A fabulous story none the less.
@@glenbetton3146 I'm sure Dr Edwards would agree with you. He's cautious about speculating as you can tell and for the reasons you cite. I'm the one who pushes him to speculate.
Don't agree with this entirely. Puts to bed the theory that he fell down the Kangshung face, that he was removed entirely from the mountain by the Chinese. For sure it raises many new questions but it does not lead to the conclusion you reach to in this comment.
It would be interesting to know whether the body the Chinese claimed to have recovered was actually fully intact. If this foot was broken off in a fall, or at any point in the intervening decades on its journey down the mountain, then they may have taken what they found.
This foot may have been elsewhere on the mountain.
The question of how the body moved once reaching the glacier is mostly moot in my opinion. A glacier is basically a river of ice and rivers have currents and don’t just move in one direction; so we will likely never know the body’s exact path once he arrived on the glacier.
The interesting question, to my mind, is when and how did Mr. Irvine’s body arrive on the glacier from above?
@@graydoncarruth5044 you make an excellent points and I agree with you! Do you have a hypothesis of what happened?
@@ftapon I will say that the good doctor’s statement saying Acham’s Razor implies human endeavor creates an unnecessary extra step (I am clearly paraphrasing here), is not necessarily accurate.
From the standpoint of a person from a Western culture, that statement makes perfect sense. But, this all happened in what is now Modern China. I’m not calling any balls and strikes on either culture being “better”. But I can fell pretty confident saying the, in that Chinese culture, human endeavor to remove an “unsightly” body adjacent to a climbing route is a very plausible hypothesis. Especially considering the eyewitness report from 1960.
Of course it is also possible the European body sighted in 1960 was from an unrecorded or illegal expedition as well. Which is why I say the “body thrown down” hypothesis is just that. A compelling hypothesis but still an hypothesis without much more evidence.
@@graydoncarruth5044 you make an excellent point about it being possible that Chinese culture would want to quietly remove an unsightly body near a climbing route.
Occam's razor really wouldn't refuse such a simple hypothesis.
The one issue where I might disagree with you is that you think there might have been an illegal or secretive climb before 1960 that attained 28,000 ft.
That is doubtful 🧐
@@ftapon Full disclosure I am far from an expert on this in any way and could be completely wrong. I just find mysteries like this fascinating and also hope for closure for the families of all involved in said mysterious disappearances.
My understanding is the body sighted in 1960 was around the 25-26k elevation; just below the “death zone”. And that is what led to my conjecture of it possibly beings a different climber.
If I’m wrong about that I’m happy to be corrected. Again, I’m nothing but an interested amateur at most.
@@graydoncarruth5044 I appreciate your humility on this issue. I'm also an amateur who could be wrong and many things. Here's what Perplexity wrote:
the 1960 sighting of a dead Englishman was at what altitude
The 1960 sighting of a dead Englishman, believed to be Andrew "Sandy" Irvine, was reported at an altitude of approximately **8,600 meters (28,000 feet)** by Wang Fuzhou, a member of the Chinese expedition. He noted that the corpse was identifiable as European due to the clothing worn by the individual[1][4]. Additionally, another sighting in 1975 reported a body at around **8,100 meters (26,600 feet)** by Wang Hongbao, which is also thought to potentially be Irvine's[1][3].
Citations:
[1] Andrew Irvine (mountaineer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Irvine_(mountaineer)
[2] George Mallory - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mallory
[3] Everest's enduring mystery: Were Mallory and Irvine first to conquer ... english.elpais.com/sports/2023-06-13/the-most-sought-after-camera-in-the-world-that-could-rewrite-the-history-of-everest.html
[4] Timeline of Mount Everest expeditions - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Mount_Everest_expeditions
[5] British explorer's remains found on Mount Everest after 100 years www.standard.co.uk/news/world/mount-everest-explorer-andrew-sandy-irvine-body-george-mallory-national-geographic-b1187242.html
[6] NOVA | Transcripts | Everest: Mystery of Mallory and Irvine - PBS www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/26mieverest.html
[7] 'It doesn't make any sense': new twist in mystery of Mount Everest and the ... www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/01/it-doesnt-make-any-sense-new-twist-in-mystery-of-mount-everest-and-the-british-explorers-missing-bodies
[8] Sandy Irvine on Mount Everest (Who Was He & How Did He Die?) | Ultimate Kilimanjaro www.ultimatekilimanjaro.com/sandy-irvine-on-mount-everest-who-was-he-how-did-he-die/
Not sure about the likelihood of summit rock particles on boot. They may have trodden on very little rock in the summit area even if they got there and a century in ice and snow wil have left the boot soles pretty 'clean'.
So is this guy Jimmy chin going to organize further searches? I understand why they are keeping it a secret but with that knowledge comes the responsibility to track it backwards to maybe the camera.
'Cash labels' are produced to this day. It was and remains a very British public and boarding school practice, to label children's clothes. This habit continued through to university. These labels were embroidered onto cotton tape. I had some done for my children, but hardly got around to sewing them on and they were not sent away to school.. They were and remain very traditional.
Love your analysis otherwise, but I believe you can discount the possible of Andrew falling down the new Norton couloir. How else can we explain the broken rope tied around Mallory’s waist with the massive hemorrhaging other than him being physically tied to Andrew at the point of their fall? Much more likely he fell at the same point Mallory did as Mallory is on the fall line beneath the ice axe
I asked Perplexity about your comment and this is what it spit out:
George Mallory's body was discovered at approximately 8,155 meters (26,760 feet) on the North Face of Mount Everest in 1999, while Andrew Irvine's ice axe was found at a higher elevation, around 8,450 meters (27,720 feet), in 1933. The locations of these findings have led to considerable speculation regarding the circumstances of their deaths.
## Location of Findings
- **Mallory's Body**: Discovered in a basin that is roughly 300 meters below the last known camp used by the climbers, indicating he fell from a higher point on the mountain[2][4].
- **Irvine's Ice Axe**: Found about 250 yards east of the First Step and approximately 60 feet below the crest of the ridge[4]. This location is considered to be where Irvine may have dropped the axe during their ascent.
## Relationship Between Locations
The geographical relationship between Mallory's body and Irvine's ice axe suggests they were not found on a direct fall line from one another. Jake Norton, who participated in the 2001 expedition, noted that while Mallory's body lies in a natural fall line from the ice axe location, it is unlikely that the fall originated from where the axe was found. He argued that the terrain at the ice axe site does not support a fatal fall leading to Mallory's resting place[3][5].
### Key Observations
- **Terrain Analysis**: The area where Mallory was found is characterized by steep and treacherous terrain, making it improbable for him to have fallen from the ice axe location directly. Instead, it appears he may have survived for a period after his fall[3].
- **Historical Context**: The ice axe was likely dropped or left behind intentionally during their climb, as mountaineers typically do not regard their axes as encumbrances[4]. This further complicates theories about the exact sequence of events leading to their demise.
In summary, while both findings are crucial to understanding Mallory and Irvine's final moments on Everest, they are situated in such a way that suggests different circumstances surrounding their respective ends.
Citations:
[1] ua-cam.com/video/IuvUjozPkbU/v-deo.html
[2] secretsoftheice.com/news/2017/04/02/everest/
[3] jakenorton.com/windproof-suits-and-68-year-old-crackers/
[4] malloryandirvine.com/2017/04/26/irvine-ice-axe/
[5] jakenorton.com/what-really-happened-to-mallory-irvine-part-iii/
[6] www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/sandy-irvine-body-found-everest
[7] www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/27/experts-doubt-mallory-everest-axe
[8] www.alexroddie.com/2014/03/george-mallory-ice-axe-auction/
We know they were were descending at night from Mallory’s snow goggles being in his pocket, so it follows that they were extremely fatigued after climbing all day. I love Jake Norton but anyone can slip anywhere when you are dead tired. He also said Mallory IS on the fall line from the axe. It was suggested immediately when the ice axe was found that it was the location of a fall and I think that makes the most sense by far. I don’t know how many guys are carrying extra ice axes up the mountain to use as markers- we don’t have any evidence of all the numerous British climbs of any other party doing that to my knowledge.
Also why on earth would Mallory keep a broken bloody rope cinched around his waist if he did not die where he fell? That would be so incredibly odd for someone in the position to do.
Mallory was tied to a snapped rope which means he was roped up with Irvine. If he was coming down on his own having left his companion, he would have carried the rope coiled around his chest ready for use in order to abseil down when needed.
@ftapon 1:55 "Sandy Irvine had his name "ENGRAVED" on the foot". Wow that must have been painful.
His name was on a cloth label sown on the sock.
LOL! It's tough to talk coherently, scroll through a website, and ask valuable questions all at the same time when your IQ is 55, like mine.
Mallory and Irvine were probably public (US private) school educated. In English public schools you write your name on everything.
I am not persuaded by the scenario suggested. If Mallory left Irvine, why was there a broken climbing rope around his waist? This suggests they were roped together when Mallory fell and Irvine was left alone. Also, if Mallory did fall from near where Irvine was first sighted, he would have fallen some distance, which is consistent with his injuries, so his position relative to camp 5 is coincidental. I also think it highly likely they would have taken a camera; why wouldn't they? Remember, an absence of evidence is not evidence of an absence.
I agree, the rope around Mallory's waist indicates they fell together.
Doesn't make any sense for Mallory to drag or carry short broken off rope around his waist alone from the couloir to his fall line.
I agree! Assuming Irvine's dead body was spotted high on the mountain in 1960, Irvine died ABOVE Mallory.
This implies that Mallory fell, not Irvine.
The rope broke or compressed around Mallory as he fell.
Irvine perhaps was yanked down, suffering a traumatic amputation of his ankle (or breaking it severely), and came to rest well above Mallory.
Both were incapacitated and died of exposure.
After 1960, natural (or human) forces caused Irvine to tumble down the mountain, where his broken ankle came off.
What do you think? Plausible?
@@ftapon I think too that this is the case. Mallory fell and Irvine was left alone and he died either on the ridge from exhaustion OR while he was trying to descent all alone. In this case they will probably find his body in a completely different side of the mountain than the one that Mallory's body was found because he descended further down and perhaps fell at a completely different place and side of the mountain. I'm pretty sure that when they will find his body he probably won't have any rope around his waist. I don't think that his leg was amputated while he was still alive because in this case his sock would have been soaked with blood. The leg could separate from his body if his body was enclosed into ice or fell further down after his death. If his body was into ice I don't think that they will find it in good condition.
Of course they carried a camera, Sandy was photographing all sorts and wrote about it in his diary, it's silly to say they didn't. Of course the camera will be annihilated and show nothing, but they definitely took one, silly to assume they didn't take one, no idea why this "expert" thinks they didn't
@@annnee6818 the expert didn't say that they didn't carry a camera, he just said that there's no irrefutable evidence in their inventory list that they brought it on the day that they went for the summit. Read his book for details.
Irvine fell and the rope snapped - Mallory continued the descent without Irvine, but chose to keep the rope around his body in an emotional response to losing Irvine - still attached somehow. Mallory took a fall and broke his leg and gave up knowing that there was no Irvine to take him back to safety.
I have a variation in your theory.
Sandy fell, perhaps taking Mallory with him.
Regardless, Sandy's ankle broke severely from the fall.
He suffered from traumatic amputation.
This is severe damage: the limb may be partially detached, with only a few ligaments or tendons holding it in place.
Mallory told Sandy to wait overnight while he fetched help, knowing Sandy would probably die high in the mountain, which is where the Chinese climber Wang found him in 1960.
Racing downhill in the darkness and being oxygen-deprived, Mallory made a fatal slip and plummeted to his death, where we found him in 1999.
An avalanche after 1960 transported Sandy down to the glacier, ripping his nearly amputated foot off.
The rest of his body lies within the glacial ice.
A variation to this is that the Chinese (or someone else) tossed his body down the mountain instead of it being a natural process.
What do you think?
@@ftapon - could be! such a mystery though. Wonder if the truth will ever be found out. The sunglasses stowed away on Mallory's body is a good clue as to the time of day when the accident happened. My guess is that they did make it to the summit, but didn't have enough time to get back safely.
@ftapon yeah I'll buy that
"the rope snapped". That would have to mean Mallory had tied the rope off around a rock and his waist while Irvine was descending below him and slipped and fell with such force it broke it
@@tonyread7076 I'm not at all certain, but I think it is usual practice for the lesser skilled of two climbers to go down first with the other climber belaying around a rock and paying out rope to assist the other climber. It is said that Irvine was a big man so possibly heavy enough to snap the rope if that is indeed what happened to the rope found on Mallory's body.
Thanks for the video.
The problem with people using Occam's Razor is when they fail to include all of the relevant facts. One statement of Occam's Razor is "The simplest explanation is usually correct." This statement needs to be modified to "The simplest explanation that covers all of the facts is usually correct." If we eliminate enough relevant facts, we can always find simple explanations that are completely wrong.
I don't know how much the natural processes on the mountain might tend to move a body. I suspect that much depends on where the body has fallen. We know from reports of climbers that many bodies stay in place for years and presumably for decades. If Mr. Irvine's body was in a location where natural processes would be unlikely to move him, then we need some explanation for how he went from that location to the glacier. If natural processes are unlikely to move him from that location, then the simplest explanation becomes that of a person taking his body and throwing it off the side of the mountain. Either way, there had to be an intervening force to throw his body off the mountain. If natural processes are very unlikely, then unnatural (i.e. human intervention) forces can become the simplest explanation.
The other possibility is that the Chinese climber didn't see an old body in 1960. The Chinese might have seen that as some kind of good propaganda at one time. I'm not sure why they would invent that propaganda, but if someone in the bureaucracy came to that conclusion, that climber could have been told to concoct that story.
I'd also like to hear from someone with experience with glaciers how much a body might be broken up and separated through the natural action of the glacier. If a glacier is unlikely to break up and separate the parts of the body, then I'm more inclined to believe that Mr. Irvine's body was on the upper mountain in 1960 and became separated on falling to the glacier. That idea would apply whether he was thrown off the mountain or fell naturally.
I hope that additional explorations can find the rest of his body and answer some questions.
1. I agree with your points about Occam's Razor.
2. To determine whether Sandy was manually tossed down the mountain, we'd need to know where he came to rest. If he came to rest on a steep, precarious, fragile, or avalanche-prone place, natural forces would easily make him slide down the mountain.
If he died on a stable platform, then he had to have been tossed.
Or he could have slid all the way down to the glacier.
All 3 are plausible possibilities.
3. I agree that there's no upside for the Chinese to invent the 1960 sighting of Irvine, which is why it's probably true, which means the first two options above are plausible.
4. Irvine's foot might have torn off from his initial fall. Climbers lose limbs due to fatal falls all the time. You don't need the glacier to have ripped off his foot through a slow process.
@@ftapon Thanks!
Your guest spoke about Mr. Irvine being immobilized before he died. That wouldn't seem consistent with a fall that broke off his foot. I can see even a small fall causing a broken bone. That happens all the time in real life. I can't see a small fall removing a foot completely.
If he took a fall that was severe enough for his foot to be broken off, he didn't just die from immobility. In that case, he would have suffered blood loss and shock that would kill him quickly.
From other videos about the reported sighting, I don't think the body that the Chinese reportedly saw was that far off the regular path. I seem to remember one climber trying to take a short detour off the approved route in order to look for the body. The Chinese guides objected strenuously. If the supposed location of the body was not that far off the route, I'm skeptical of the initial fall removing the foot completely. On the other hand, the initial fall could have broken his ankle. The withering of the soft tissue over the years might have caused separation and led to the foot and the rest of the body being dislodged at different times. In that scenario, the rest of his body may still be where the Chinese reportedly saw him in 1960 and only his foot fell to the glacier.
We know that some people have climbed without real guidance. I think one of the more notorious deaths was of a man who went to Tibet to try to climb Everest without any real help. He'd contracted for only the most rudimentary support and ended up climbing solo. I forget whether he died on the way to the summit or on the return. I remember reading his story and seeing videos about him.
I mention him because I could see a solo climber who really wasn't a serious mountaineer being off the usual route, coming across a body, and deciding to push the body over the side. Maybe some guy who wasn't thinking clearly anyway and didn't realize the significance of what he was doing removed Mr. Irvine's body. Not that many people have been in that situation, but it would be another explanation. That explanation is less likely but isn't impossible. The value of that explanation is that it doesn't depend on some conspiracy theory. Bad or odd decisions up there are easy to believe.
@@VTPSTTU When Dr. Edwards says that Irvine was "immobilized," he wasn't assuming that Irvine could not have suffered a catastrophic fall that ripped off his ankle. When you're carrying heavy oxygen canisters, and you fall from a great height at the wrong angle, you can sever your ankle. Dr. Edwards wouldn't rule that option out.
The ankle could have been partially severed, and birds could have removed the remaining cartilage.
Jimmy Chin said they had to take the foot away because birds were feasting on it.
The climber you are referring to is Maurice Wilson. In 1934, he attempted to climb Mount Everest with little experience and minimal equipment, driven by a belief that he was guided by God. Initially accompanied by two Sherpas, they left him after assessing the dangers of his ambitious plan. Wilson continued the ascent alone, relying on his faith rather than his climbing skills.
He aimed to reach the summit from the north side but succumbed to exposure at around 6,500 meters (approximately 21,300 feet). His body was discovered a year later, and in his diary, his last entry read: “Off again. Gorgeous day”1. Wilson's story is often cited as an example of extreme ambition and a lack of preparation in high-altitude mountaineering.
I agree that Irvine's body could have been tossed down the mountain for non-nefarious reasons.
@@VTPSTTU-There are no blood stains on the sock, so the ankle broke apart post mortem. For the OP, if the pressure & weight of a glacier can cause rock to be scoured tand break o the point that it creates different terrains, lakes & rivers, the human body or any body is nothing to the glacier. Because of the thaw/freeze process of snow which creates the glacier happens at different degrees depending on the part of the glacier, his body could've been broken at various times by the glacier. I think it probably broke on the way down & parts are probably in quite a few places. Think about an ice cube that drops on the floor. Irvine's body was literally a brittle ice cube.
How many times was the word 'conjecture' used?
Too many.
this highlighted subtitels are so disturbing i couldn't watch the video. 😢 it might be interesting indeed but watching like this is just not possible
Is there a link to read Dr. Edwards goodreads article? I can’t find it anywhere.
I went to school in London in the 60's/70's, and even back then, it was common practice for mothers to sew name tags on their children's clothing. I think this was so that following PE (physical education) or swimming, their children would return home with their own clothes.
That's right.
Those boots 👢 were made for walkin' but climb is what they did 🎶 one of these days we'll find out 🤞 what happened to that kid; or what the Chinese did; and what the glacier hid 🎶
He's being held by the Chinese locked away.
@@Bob31415 The discovery of Irvine's foot/boot weakens that hypothesis. I think it's 70% likely that we will find the rest of his body on Everest, not in a Chinese freezer. But you could be right!
@@ftapon I hope that *you* are right and more of his remains are found.
@@Bob31415 no that's clearly not the case now the foot has been found. He fell or was chucked off
@@annnee6818 True
If they fell from anywhere near the summit, I feel Irvine is probably not in one piece. Kind of lucky that Mallory was
Does Robert Edwards expect that a detailed particle analysis will be done on the boot? We have all the technology in the world to analyse this boot, the question is will they?
Of course not
Well they gave it to the the Chinese so I think thats the last we'll ever see of it. The Chinese certainly ill cover up any findings that would prove someone else beat them to the summit.
Chin didnt find the boot, it was Erich Roepke
@@jonathanclegg1595 I can't find evidence of that yet. Do you have a source?
@@ftapon “It was actually Erich who spotted something and was like, ‘Hey, what's that?’,” says Chin. It was the boot, emerging from the ice." From the Nat Geo article.
@@ftapon How inept are you??? You can't find evidence that Erich found/spotted Irvine's boot first!!!! It's in the film clip!!!!!!!!!!! Time for you to stop pretending you have something significant and factual to add to this recent find. Utter nonsense. You cannot even pronounce Irvine's name correctly.
His name wasn't "engraved on the foot," it was embroidered on the sock. Please be a bit more careful.
Irvines foot is NOT in the boot. It's his boot, not Irvines " remains" nor any actual part of Irvine.
Sooooo if the body underwent forces that broke it up, how would the boot possibly still have rock particle traces remaining on it after a century????
microscopic pieces of rock could be in the hobnails or in the leather sole. Its unlikely that they survived everything for a century, but still worth a look.
Not Chinese territory - Tibetan territory - illegally occupied Tibetan territory. Please don’t give the Chinese authorities any legitimacy.
Chinese territory
@@idlehands1864 Brainwashed!
@@idlehands1864 No. occupied by a nasty tyrannical regime.
@@idlehands1864good... if the Han empire is OK, then so is every other empire
@@Boababa-fn3mr they are, territory belongs to those who have the capability to cultivate and control it. Without the developments from the various empires through history humans would still be nothing more than nomads, only slightly above animals
If Irvine became incapacitated and Mallory headed down, leaving him there, I would think Irvine would have given any camera he carried to Mallory to evidence reaching the summit. Even if they were "on the descent," there remains no proof that they did not simply turn around short of the summit. I do find it interesting that research has been done that indicates there was a "huge pressure drop" on June 8, 1924 in the area. This would indicate that a storm may have occurred and stymied M&I's summit attempt.
Not consistent with the rope on Mallory's body, which suggest at the time of accident Mallory was below and Irvine was above. Wong Hang Bao's sighting in 1970 of an old English dead near the climbing route also contradicts this theory.
This is not supported by the expedition records. There was a pressure drop on 9th June but not on 8th. Michael Tracy deals with this.
J.m.: For Irvine to hand off the camera to Mallory, you're assuming they were next to each other when Irvine became incapacitated.
What if Irvine fell far from Mallory (and in the darkness) so that Mallory couldn't get to him?
Maybe that's why Mallory abandoned Irvine?
@@ftapon The gentleman in the video is assuming this. What I'm saying is IF he's correct, then he's likely also correct that the camera doesn't exist. Not being able to get to him is only one of many possible reasons why he may have left Irvine to go get help. To quote him - "It's possible in the sense that everything is possible." It's also possible that HACE may have rendered Irvine unconscious - meaning that, if together, Mallory simply may not have been able to move him. In that scenario, Mallory would have probably thought to grab such a camera.
If it existed, the camera would have been an item of utmost importance to BOTH of them and they would have made it a priority to get it down rather than Mallory just leaving it in Irvine's hands as Irvine waited on the mountain for Mallory to return with help.
He's also suggesting that the evidence points to them being on the descent from the summit, but nothing precludes them having turned around prior to reaching the summit for any number of reasons, even if Odell's sighting is accurate and any or all of the later sightings of a corpse are correct.
I understand there is a desire for people to want to put them on the summit, but in the absence of definitive proof, one really has to assume (and yes, it is all assumption) they did not get to that point and the very real possibility that they did not have a camera with them.
@@stewartjohnkingDidn't Odelll also observe snow and high winds and the weather only clearly briefly when he observe Irvine and Mallory near the summit?
ETA (after re-reading a few things) - After Odell spotted them, he indicates that the clouds obscured them again. There was also a snow squall that occurred a little later that afternoon (on the 8th). While that squall has been disregarded by some as not being severe enough to have caused Mallory and Irvine a problem, it was severe enough for Odell to have started whistling in order to try to guide M&I to the tents before he realized it was too early in the day for them to be returning from the summit. So I think it's safe to say that visibility higher up on the mountain was also not ideal at that time.
Irvine. Not Irving. Interviewer
I apologize for not pronouncing Irvine unconventionally.
According to Perplexity:
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
“I apologize” was good, the rest indicative of possible social disorder
Are they assuming the body and foot weren't separated from each other higher up on the mountain
Nobody knows how the foot was separated from the body. But I'll throw out my useless theory:
Sandy fell, perhaps taking Mallory with him.
Regardless, Sandy's ankle broke severely from the fall.
He suffered from traumatic amputation.
This is severe damage: the limb may be partially detached, with only a few ligaments or tendons holding it in place.
Mallory told Sandy to wait overnight while he fetched help, knowing Sandy would probably die high in the mountain, which is where the Chinese climber Wang found him in 1960.
Racing downhill in the darkness and being oxygen-deprived, Mallory made a fatal slip and plummeted to his death, where we found him in 1999.
An avalanche after 1960 transported Sandy down to the glacier, ripping his nearly amputated foot off.
The rest of his body lies within the glacial ice.
A variation to this is that the Chinese (or someone else) tossed his body down the mountain instead of it being a natural process.
What do you think?
Excellent video. Very informative and educational. I'm glad they finally found something of Irvine's.
Nope. This is all speculation, so not informative at all.
@@1unsung971 Speculation and theories are all one has to go on until more evidence is discovered. At least they found something of his... now they have a clue where to search for the rest of him... not to be disrespectful. The poor fella had a horrifying demise. He was only 22 years old. I feel bad that he never got to live his life to the fullest; he was a very handsome young man.
I don't think the interviewer was listening very well. The Dr. shows some good restraint.
how about summit rocks they could of collected?
I doubt Irvine stashed his summit rocks inside his boot buddy so we can't look into that unless the rest of him is located.
True, but as Dr. Edwards says, perhaps microscopic summit rocks became embedded in the boot.
Moreover, Jim could refer to Sandy's body: perhaps he had rocks in his backpack or clothes. Obviously, we won't know that until we find his body.
@@TylerChamb true
@@TylerChamb the video also said his body could be within three to four meters of his found foot.
"Could have collected" not "could of collected." Execrable mistake to make.
Who is Sandy Irving?
He was the only companion of George Mallory when they attempted to summit Everest in 1924.
Watch: ua-cam.com/video/_alNnOQkbHE/v-deo.html
Sandy Irvine !
Scenario #3: Irvine takes a horrid fall, maybe with Mallory, and some body parts later via avalanche and natural forces made their way down to the glacier. It is possible the camera is still on the mountain. Searches need to continue on the mountain but much lower. I find it unlikely he reached the glacier intact from 27,000ft.
If that's the case there will only be smashed remains of the camera
Where is the rest of him?
In the glacier
The frayed rope found with Mallory and the rope marks on his body indicate something more happened to them.
Do we know how frayed it was?
Was its condition due to 100 years of exposure to the elements or a catastrophe?
@@ftapon I believe the rope was split and an one end portion missing, suggesting they had been tied together and someone fell, but the rope couldn’t hold. The rope marks on Mallory’s body point towards great tension on the rope producing bruises. So Irvine may have slipped and fell, Mallory tried to save him, but the rope broke and Mallory went for help. The problem being that Irvine’s apparent ice ax was found on the ridge above where Mallory fell which was a long distance away according to the video. By the way, the analysis presented was first class.
The video needs a tilted side angle Google earth view of the side of everest ..looking straight down isn't sufficient
Surely they were together when the accident happened as mallory had a snapped rope tied to him when found. 27:39
I'm not a mountaineer.....I'm not a glaciologist.....I've never been on Everest. I'm not sure this 'expert' has any credibility grounded in relevant personal experience of the subject under discussion!
Glacier flow rates aren't scientific anyway, a glaciologist wouldn't be able to tell you anything either. No one can be sure of anything.
What will happen to the boot, sock and remains of mr Irvine?
Is it up to the Chinese given where they were found?
@@catotjernstad331 I don't know but I assume China has authority on it to some extent. The relatives of Irvine may also have a right to demand it back.
It's already been delivered to Chinese authorities
His relatives should get back everything found, it seems like the right thing to do but what do I know.
Mallory was buried on the mountain back in the day, and will the same procedure be followed if more remains of Irwine is found?
@@catotjernstad331 Probably not based on where his foot was found. Unlike higher up, bodies can be recovered a lot easier.
Are you planning on doing a podcast then with someone who is an expert in glaciers any time soon?
Not yet but let me know if you have a suggested expert.
Let's hope not. This bloke is a proper lemon
Where was Andrew Irvines foot the day JFK was shot ?
You said “ the body was possibly moved down the mountain by avalanche!
How can this be happen , if the body was seen 1960 on the ridge ?
Avalanches are going down a mountain and the ridge is the highest position ?????
So it must be moved by people, who did throw the body down for any purpose?!!
Next question , the ice axe of Sandy was found also near the ridge , but far away from the second step more down !
So how can be the body up high on 8600 over the 2. Step, when his axe is far more down ???
If you have ideas, please help me to imagine how this all make sense 😄🙏🙏🙏
I missed it...where are these remains now?
All over the place on a huge glacier filled with crevasses, seracs and slots.
@@Longtack55 Who has the foot? And why could Mallery's boots not be excavated and examined? Unless his boots are also missing.
he found it at the foot of the glacier, where else? more specifically the toe of the glacier. its the sole location to search.
Judging from the photo, you're right.
But it's not "the sole location to search."
You can search in glacial crevasses. Yes, it's tedious, dark, and dangerous work, but it's another place to look.
@@ftapon i hope they search the arch, the ball, the heel, and nail down all the places he could be
@@ftapon we need more boots on the ground
Terminal commentary mate
@@1unsung971 this whole conversation has gotten off on the wrong foot
Did they ever find the camera?
Short answer: NO.
Long answer: Listen to 34:00.
许竞是1960年中国首次登顶珠穆朗玛峰副队长。他多次表示在1960年登顶途中看到尸体，其中在“第一台阶”与“第二台阶”之间看到的尸体可能是欧文的尸体
Video needs side view of mtn showing mallorys position
Er-vine?
Er-vin?
Er-ving?
LOL
SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors.
According to Perplexity:
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
He obviously moved to Argentina without his foot. 🤣
The likely natural event that would have caused the body to fall would have been the earthquake a few years back.
Possibly! It happened April 25, 2015
It was 7.8
Known as the Gorkha earthquake, it triggered a massive avalanche on Everest, resulting in at least 24 deaths at Base Camp and significant destruction across Nepal
incredibly insightful interview, Thank you for this!
Nope. Hypotheticals do not an argument make
Discovery at nineteen thousand and one foot…
hopefully they will, if they find the body, look for summit rocks in his pockets.
Has anyone tried to identify the location of the discovery by examining the reflection in Jimmy Chin's sunglasses?
Yes
Very interesting video but please pronounce the name correctly.
I agree that I should have pronounced Irvine's name "correctly."
FYI, here's what Perplexity says:
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
@@ftapon you should know this. There ARE NO EXCUSES for your ignorance except laziness.
It was a Scottish thing to put your name label on your coat, shirt, underwear. Never heard of labelling socks?
Tailors sometimes tag everything with the customer's name
Nope. We all did it in the UK, even in the 80s as a teacher in a boarding school, where laundry was done by school laundry ladies.
8:57 no, you lost me. That story is either not real or he saw Mallory. Irvine fell farther. OBVIOUSLY. Anyone who says otherwise is saying so to keep their narrative going.
It is also said that a Chinese expedition either removed the body or threw the body off the mountain. Perhaps that's how it came to be at the head of the glacier. Just a thought but could be the reason that his foot has been seperated from his body, although I understand that that could happen while travelling the glacier. Amazing that the group from National Geographic weren't even looking for Irvine.
Damn look at how happy these old men are with the discovery of one boot. I know its somehow historical but for real now guys...
Is it
[er-vine] or
[er-veen] or
[er-vin] ???
🤷♂️🤷♂️
ps found years ago
Gandalf spotted Frodo & Sam trudging slowly towards Amon Amarth, between the 2nd and 3rd steps... 100 years later Irvine's boot is found, .. and in his pockets there was perhaps a rock.. I suspect they summited.
The glacier is a slow motion blender any body that gets disgorged is disarticulated.
How can he not know the man's last name?
We all agree that Sandy's last name was Irvine.
What you're really asking is that you want agreement on the pronunciation of "Irvine."
I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine.
However, if you're addressing the subtitles being misspelled, you're 100% correct.
In the show notes, I wrote: "SUBTITLES: Are auto-generated and have some errors."
I apologize for not correcting the automatic subtitles.
Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine":
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
it will some day be proven these two men summited. its the camera.
Did you hear what Dr. Edwards said about the camera at 34:00.
Short answer: that "someday" you're hoping for will probably never arrive.
@@ftapon i did, but to assume at that time these two guys went without taking the only proof they would have later is ludicrous.
Summit rocks in a rucksack would be a much better bet - both guys knew that such rocks would be proof that they made it there...
@@mikelewis1436 if mallory and irvine had been nasa we would have hi def video from 1924 with coke bottles at the summit
Tapon or Tampon? Whats in a name?
That's a bad analogy since you're misspelling my last name.
A better analogy would say "TA-pon" or "Taa-pon" or "Ta-PON."
If you're referring to the spelling mistakes on subtitles, I addressed that in the show notes when I published the video.
If you're referring to the pronouncing of "Irvine" Perplexity helps you out:
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
Excellent. This Tampon guy is a charlatan of the highest order
Excellent analysis. Yes of course speculation ... Nevertheless ...
"Yes of course speculation." So.............worthless. I speculate that Irvine's foot fell off while he was Morris Dancing on the descent in the dark. Could be true.
@@1unsung971 that's probably on the outer spectrum of possibilities 😄
Bad joke….but ok. This isn’t a humorous situation tho.
So we know for a fact that Irvine didn't reach the summit of Everest, he was a foot short..
He hopped all the way up
Trying to find his foot
Should Sandy Irvine be called 'brown boots'? That's how much people cared about 'green boots' - nobody cared enough to know green boot's name. Human nature is sometimes difficult to understand. One dead body is christened as a saint, and another is totally ignored.
@@PatrickDuffy-u3s if green boots had done something truly extraordinary and unusual, we would know the person's name. That's the difference between someone being christened as a saint or ignored.
Perhaps it's the wrong thing to do.
But that's human nature.
bet he's hopping mad
Sorry, I can't take anyone seriously who can't even get names right.
Ciao.
Respect
Very irritating listening to podcast host repeatedly mispronouncing Irvine as Irving. Even after guest properly says Irvine with a polite nuanced inflection in his voice. Yikes!
@@jimc3891 I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine. Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine":
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about
it's Irvine with an E not Irving with a G....numbnutz
I haven't listened to this yet, but I don't trust the opinion of somebody who published a book of the subject, because they're going to have a hard time being objective and changing their mind if the evidence disproves their theory.
Should we trust the opinion of someone commenting on a video without seeing it?
But his book is full of wrong information correct? He didn't even get the placement of the well documented and geolocated high camps right, so how can you even base a potential theory of a specific climb, routes, and times when you are starting with completely the wrong locations and cherry picking information from pre-expedition and even changed accounts of the original documentation from interviews or eyewitness accounts that differ vastly because they were given decades later?! Do some research of the ORIGINAL source material if you are interested in this topic please, Including the both the photography and meteorological data of the actual weather during Mallory/Irvine's summit attempt... Many "facts" and "historical notations" from the multiple expeditions presented in his book are in direct conflict with the original, still existing journals and documentation! That's enough reason to listen to a random commenter and not an author with specific pre existing theories and beliefs of the matter, also a self proclaimed non mountaineer who has never been to Everest... So I guess you just need to be a successful selling author to be an automatic "expert" on the matter... Much like "Into Thin Air" is taken as factual because it was a popular seller, even though it's FULL of misleading, missing information, and flatout lies, even including contradictions within contained photographs and page to page statements that don't agree with previous statements... Having a popular book does not an expert witness or source make... Many Everest "experts" and similar Navy SEAL "incredible mission" authors should get together and start their own publishing company... That way you can get all the best deliberate misleading information based on opinions presented as fact, without source information citations from one place! 😂 I am still listening and so far I haven't heard anything about changing theories or factual corrections... But thanks for the efforts in producing this content anyway👍Opinions can always be interesting or entertaining 😉
@@ftaponLast name is Irvine, not Irving. You lack credibility
Don't waste your time. It's rubbish. Life is too short. Executive summary: Erich found Irvine's foot and boot. that's all.
I really don't need conformation, they were first.....no doubt 😁
Could you please have some respect and pronounce the man's last name correctly. Irving??
I apologize for not using the conventional pronunciation of Irvine.
Here's what Perplexity.ai says about the various ways of pronouncing "Irvine":
The name "Irvine" can indeed be pronounced in multiple ways, reflecting variations across different accents and languages. Here are the primary pronunciations:
## Common Pronunciations
1. **Ur-VINE**: This is the most widely recognized pronunciation in English-speaking countries, particularly in American and British English. It emphasizes the second syllable, making it sound like "Ur-VINE" [1][2].
2. **ER-VAYN**: This variation is noted in some phonetic representations, particularly in American contexts. It suggests a slightly different vowel sound in the first syllable [2].
3. **UR-vin**: This pronunciation is common in Scottish dialects, where the name may be pronounced with a more muted second syllable [2][1].
4. **UR-vahyn**: Another less common variation that can be heard, especially in informal contexts [2].
## Language Variations
The pronunciation of "Irvine" can also differ based on the language:
- **French**: In French-speaking regions, it may be pronounced with a softer emphasis on the vowels.
- **German**: Similar to English but may have slight variations in vowel sounds.
- **Spanish and Other Languages**: The pronunciation may adapt to fit phonetic norms of each language [1].
## Conclusion
Overall, while "Ur-VINE" remains the most prevalent pronunciation, regional accents and language differences contribute to a variety of acceptable pronunciations for "Irvine."
Citations:
[1] www.kidpaw.net/names/irvine/pronounce
[2] www.howtopronounce.com/irvine
[3] ua-cam.com/video/XHhh4E5TsSg/v-deo.html
[4] ua-cam.com/video/rOj0ETT6-So/v-deo.html
[5] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/uk
[6] www.reddit.com/r/Berserk/comments/60j8i0/how_do_you_pronounce_irvine/
[7] youglish.com/pronounce/irvine/english/sco
[8] www.names.org/n/irvine/about