Easy guide to Volume Spacers.
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2022
- #mtb #mtblife #mtbsuspension
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When equalizing pressure between positive and negative air chamber, I believe that Rock Shox recommends doing this without the shock pump connected
Just a word of warning, especially on an already small volume shock like the superdeluxe, going for the maximum amount of tokens can lead to very harsh and uncontrollable suspension. There’s this ‘wall’ of progression deep in the stroke, even worse, the bike rebounds very quick from deep in the stroke which makes it a bit like a bucking horse. Using a ton of compression damping is an alternative to stiffen up the rear but this also makes the bike harsh on small hits and feeling ‘dead’.
I learned this the hard way but when your riding style/weight demands very progressive suspension I would pick a frame that’s already quite progressive, unless cascade offers a link for your frame of choice.
Great video thanks brother. I just added a token to my 36 and add some HSC and dropped the air 10 PSI I really like it.🔥🔥
Great explanation of how it all works! The only thing I’ve ever used tokens on is the arcade at my local mall. Now I gotta give THIS a shot.
Thanks, Calirado Kid! Maybe we'll see a good suspension skit from you in the future? ;)
I have a Trek Slash 8, and the rear shock was eating through its travel. I had the shop throw in a spacer when I had the shock rebuilt, and it made the shock feel SOOO much better.
Trek Slash 2022, same as you but threw 3 spacers, much less air, faster rebound...shock is super alive and resists bottoming out at the same time.
Very good explanation, thanks!
Great video! I'm new to the channel and definitely think you deserve more views! Also thanks for recommending N+1! I've got a Ripley AF heading my way within the next 1 to 2 weeks!
Thank you, stoked you found the channel. Enjoy that new Ripley!
Great video. Answered my questions! Subscribed.
Thank you!!a
Great video Rich. Simple and to the point!💪🏻
Appreciate it!
@@SemiSendy sent you a msg on Instagram… take a look when you get a sec. I appreciate any help you can give.✌🏻
Phenomenal explanation
This is probably the best explanation of what volume spacers are, and what they do that I've seen. It goes into one thing other videos miss: the effect of volume spacers on air pressure (spring rate) and your compression and rebound settings.
Damn much understandable and informative and simple way to discuss this! Thanks!
Cheers!
Awsome video! A very underrated UA-camr indeed...
Excellent video - that definitely helped!
Glad you liked it!
Great video again rich!
Thanks, MTB Rad Dad!
Good breakdown.
Thank you!
wow. glad I watched this
Welcome to the channel!
After I bought my used bike I thought something was wrong with the fork! Turns out, it had a volume spacer in it.. I was always looking forward to adding spacers, but turns out I don't like them!
Absolutely. I encourage them to only be used when necessary.
I bought my bike and I believe I have one, personally I like it as it's very rare I bottom out but the first 80% of my suspension is very plush
yeah i bought my bike new and had issues. Solved by ripping out the tokens from both thr shock and fork. Before that i had bad advice with people suggesting i should add tokens :-(
@@Stengell you'll change your mind again later haha
@@Dgilbertt_ Like the boxxer tripples on my antique Foes Weasel... Best feeling forks ever, circa 1999. (I just scored a... scored set from the tip shop for $5 fine for a daily ride if I can find some seals.. )
Air added/subtracted = Spring rate
Volume spacers added/subtracted = Preload
When compared to coil.
Use a regular ratchet, not a torque wrench to remove the topcap, then install with the torque wrench. Other than that, great video and thanks for the explanation.
If you want to be real picky, you should never use a ratchet to undo a nut/bolt until it is loose as they are more fragile and can be damaged with the initial force.
As a maintenance engineer myself, I never observe this rule on all occasions. (tho I do have a good collection of dead ratchets... some welded into mini strongarms... better waste one of those with a tube and a foot than a real strongarm...)
Also don't cycle the shock with the pump still attached
he did it very carefully... but i didn't and the valve snapped on my DVO, luckily it was an inexpensive and easy repair....but the bike was down while i waited for the part.. this is a very good tip! take it off when you're cycling..better safe than sorry @@gbuzztard
@@gbuzztard Why not?
I have a Fox factory 36 170mm and was running 0 tokens for a few years. I was never able to fully bottom out, but, I like having that last bit when it may be needed. I re-watched a great set-up video on the Fox Grip 2 damper by The Lost Co. (Mike). He explained that he could never get the fork dialed in with no tokens, so he recommended using 2 tokens no matter what. Said all his settings, (HSR,LSR,HSC,LSC) just work better now. I figured what the heck, if I don’t try it I’ll never know. I added 2 tokens, 5psi less air, (to achieve proper sag), and rode at my favorite trail that I know well. I was actually blown away at how much better the fork felt. Super supple over rough sections, my hands didn’t get beat up, and I was able to dial in a bit of LSC whereas with no tokens I had to run all compression wide open to prevent it from feeling harsh. I use the same amount of travel as before, but the fork feels amazing now. I say give it a try with 0 tokens, then try it with 2 tokens. You may actually be surprised. You won’t know until you try it both ways.
I just added a third volume reducer (default is 1) in my 160mm Fox 36 on my Ripmo. I felt like I needed more mid-stroke support so now the ride is plush yet supportive and smashes rock gardens even harder! But I am an aggressive rider and I was addressing a specific need that I couldn't otherwise fix with the adjusters. So I wouldn't say this setup is right for the average trail rider.
That video from Lost Co is good, I remember it helped me understand when my new fork had so many adjusters!
your wheight ? and where you guys getting those tokkens ?> i have fox 38, butnothing was supplied with the bike..
The Lost Co. have them.
Oh, liked and subscribed :)
Welcome to the channel!
First time using volume spacers since getting a new 120mm air fork for my xc/trail hardtail. Im 6'5" and 230lbs. I've settled on running no volume spacers as forks feel best for me with quite high air pressure and I dont seem to bottom them out.
Its funny... ive seen the best of riders! Thinkn the more spacers... the cooler! Good video! Hope it helps the ding-dongs understand mtb suspension
I should have watched this before using a standard socket, luckily I did very little damage. :(
I miss your traveling and trail riding videos.
Me too! It's been tough this year with my workload and schedule. My riding time has been my only time for a mental break, so I've needed to not turn that time into work as well. I have still been recording my unique travels though and sharing them on my Patreon. I'll be uploading some awesome video from the Sierra's in Northern California there this week!
Here's a link if you want to join that community: www.patreon.com/semi_sendy
You should have more subscribers
Great breakdown Rich, thanks but what happened to the links in the upper right hand corner?
Thank you, Charlie, and thanks for the heads up! The links are now fixed.
What I cant quite wrap my head around is less available volume due to spacers so that also means less air. How does that help anything? Also do spacers affect travel? I guess not, tokens just physically sit where there once was air. Wait never mind, less air in a smaller container means it compresses faster as per your ball example. light bulb moment, lol
Thank you for the video. It was useful. As a relative newcomer to both suspension and physics...I was wondering whether or not there is a felt-effect at the beginning of the stroke too? ie does the addition of spacers diminish the small bump compliance? Or is the effect restricted to that which is desired: the elimination or delay of bottoming out? Cheers.
There is a slight bump in the resistance force required as you move through the initial stroke, though very minor. There’s this idea that using volume spacers is a great way to increase small bump compliance by reducing air pressure and still resisting bottom out, however you end up spending more time riding in the mid stroke than desired.
Of course, at the end of the day I always recommend experimenting and going with what works best for you.
@@SemiSendy Really useful. Thanks for the help!
Would it be a reasonable generalisation to say that spacers are needed for light weight riders on longer travel shocks?
Maybe I missed something. If I add tokens, do I have to go through rebound/compression path again or no?
I did not want to faff with all that on the trail, I have Ext Era, two adjustable air chambers, so easily to set up and test on the trail. Only need a shock pump. So I won't go back to Fox. But I was few up with the creaking so that is another reason. Rockshox had dual air before but they abandoned the idea to make it "more user friendly" not for me.
But one advantage is once you have it setup perfectly you have only one chamber to adjust, but you can't tune it for each rider quickly, so not optimal for rental bikes.
Can you please help. My fox kashima 40 downhill fork i can't turn to + or - the high speed compression..
@semi-sendy if you remove a 2cm spacer on a 120mm fork, doesn't this effectively reduce the fork travel to 100mm?
mine has some in it and its spring so its not for spring forks????
I've got to find a flat ground and check what's inside the fork. I need to do my best to make my fork feel like the factory I have. I think you can get the internals to upgrade a performance level?
You can upgrade various internals depending on make/model/year. Best thing to do is to contact the manufacturer to get the compatible part numbers available for yours.
How come I prefer 0 tokens on ZEB'21 ultimate 29" 170mm. ~70 PSI (I weight 73kg, Levo 23kg).
I prefer a bit higher ride (especially that often I ride quite steep technical stuff) ? (better mid support)? and I use almost all travel (in heavy hit situations). If I put tokens, I almost never use whole travel, thus I could lower the pressure? but then, I feel mid support will be worse.
Can you run no tokens?
For adding volume reducer which i will keep same the air psi or the sag??
Always set for sag, but it’ll likely stay close or the same to your current psi
I still don’t understand how volume spacers work. It seems like they will shorten your travel by the amount of space taken up by the volume spacer or spacers?
*laughs in ohlins*
Oh. So thats what the second Air Chamberis for?
@@lakaldrakyep !
just curious, did you get a Ripmo to replace your sentinel?
I am doing an extended review on the Ripmo, so it's what I've been riding the most lately, but I haven't yet purchased/replaced the Sentinel with anything yet.
semi can you vouch that N+ bikes exists? about to make a purchase
100%, they’re in Louisville, KY. instagram.com/n1_bikes?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Awesome folks, excellent reputation.
Racers be like „less spacers - more air“ - there is a lot of truth in that statement
What torque wrench is that? And whats the torque spec for the cap on fox shocks?
It’s a Park tools torque wrench.
@@JohnC686 those are not the best, I reccomend to upgrade the bit adapter, as they have bad tolerances at the female part and can fall off the wrench head. But for some reason they have good tolerances on the male part so might need screwdriver to disconnect.
For normal average rider, with a correct sag on the fork that still doesn’t bottom out but use the right amount of travel….. Is the token useless?
Because it change only the last part of the travel… so does the token make sense only if, with correct sag, you are too often on the end of travel/bottom out?
Tokens are used to give you good small bump in the initial stroke and still give you a good platform to push up against during braking, or cornering, or pumping or jumping. Mid stroke support is a very very important thing to have esp when riding fast. You may be using the correct amount of travel, but does your fork dive unnecessarily? If yes, add more tokens.
@@s14tat token doesn’t give you more mod stroke… air do it. It’s a misconception that low psi and more token give you better small bumps and mid stroke… watch the other video of him
@@XqDezzy10 please explain the nuance to me good sir. I always thought that more progression you add, the ramp up is what is used to keep the bike propped up vs just running air. That is how I set my bikes up. I over pressure I jam my fork full of tokens since all I do is dirt jump and I ride park. I set my dh bike that way and I set my hardtail that way. It is still soft off the top and still keeps me propped up because fork dive is causes horrible geo changes on a hardtail. Ps, I don't set my forks with sag. I set based on feel, and I don't set with the goal of using all of my travel. Basically every video that he did I have been doing long before it. I am also not being sarcastic when I am asking you to explain. I am always interested in learning more. You can never have too much knowledge.
Andrea, that is correct. Sounds like you don't need to add any tokens. There's a chance you already have some installed. The 38 that was used as an example in the video actually had three spacers installed from the factory. You could check just to see what you're working with, but it certainly doesn't sound like you're needing to add any right now.
@@SemiSendy I’m light rider, 160mm and zero token… correct use of travel and full of mid stroke support (in addition at +5/9 range of click lsc) and I do drops and jump (no dh like jump 😅)
SHeesh
Great video! I still didn't see the links in the video I watched though.... Can you respond with them, please and thank you?!
Hi Scott, sorry to take a bit to reply. I've been traveling quite a bit lately. Here is a link to the suspension playlist which has both videos: ua-cam.com/play/PLsIVsS9eNILSowlfeueRoyCm1ZW2fuBZC.html
I'll add the spring rate and rebound & compression links directly into the description field on this video as well.
You should remove the pump before you pull down the fork
Why aren’t there charts that suggest how many bottomless tokens to start with based on weight and aggressiveness of riding?
There’s too many variables and far too much subjectivity of what “aggressive” is from any one persons perspective. Fortunately it’s extremely easy to experiment to find work works best for you.
@@SemiSendy Electronic predictive SMART shocks would never fully solve this problem no matter how much time and money was spent on research..
For a given rider , various sections of a track or fire road etc can require one set of fork behaviours on one section and suddenly require somewhat different behaviours on the next and so on . This is actually impossible pie if you really apply Mandelbrot thinking .
What I'd like to know is how are these new stocks able to hold up against say 18 to 20st men I was a DH and street trail rider 15 or so years ago I want to get back into mountain biking but want to loose bit weight cycling first only thing is I'm scared incase I go spend a fortune on a good bike and it turns out to be like designer gear. No fatties allowed 😂 like I said it was my life back in the day now I've got the time to do it again family all settled etc but after covid I blew up with water retention and apparently have this long covid hospital said but got saved up now for an mtb ready to get one I've seen a couple bigger guys riding and jumping trails no bother but seem to only be able to use 170mm travel forks
Do you think it's better to run slightly lower pressure and a token or mor air and no tokens if you were using the same amount of travel?
That’s the problem. Running your air fork/shock on low air pressure and many tokens at the same time is absolutely wrong, because you loose your midstroke support. That’s where a coilspring shines, with its linear spring curve it sensitive and well supported at the midstroke. So the best way is to set up your sag on your air suspension correctly, don’t use tokens at the beginning. When you notice you using to much travel on trail sections where it shouldn’t be, add a Volumespacer. Test again and so on.
But do Tokens reduce the travel of your fork, meaning your 160mm fork with 4cm of Tokens is now a 120mm fork, and you just got scammed buying an expensive downhill bike when you should have just got a crosscountry bike to begin with?
Or is there "dead space" in the shock where air compresses but never is used as travel for the piston in the shock, and thats the gap you fill with the Tokens to reduce that final compression space to near zero? This would make sense since forks have different maximum Tokens in their specs. Too many Tokens and they would hit the piston and thats bad?
Is it better to use the hsc circuit to help increase ramp up or spacers?
The two function differently, and one doesn't really replace the other. I'd recommend trying both, starting with HSC. HSC can help provide more overall support in the deeper portion of your suspensions travel, but depending on the fork/shock, it can also impact your LSC more than desired. Some designs do a better job at isolating the two circuits, but some really don't do that well either.
If you feel HSC is degrading the overall quality of the ride, then try spacers instead.
If you feel the support is adequate, but you're reaching bottom out too early, it's more likely that volume spacers will be the best ticket.
@Semi-Sendy thank you my friend, appreciate that🙏
@@lukenukem1164 happy to help!
You never use a torque wrench to loosen a fastener. Only for tightening a fastener!
Is there any reason besides minimizing wear of an expensive tool?
@@Jump-n-smash It's because you're going to mess up the calibration. It's the same as torquing after the click. Your tool is gonna need a calibration. What's the point of torquing a fastener if your torque wrench is not precise due to improper use.
@@dude_0458 thank you. That’s nice to know for when I get a torque wrench. I ordered a Canyon (direct to consumer) and was wondering if I’d need to buy one, but yesterday I learnt that Canyon ship some kind of plastic contraption that attaches to a regular tool and measures the torque applied by deforming the plastic tool on a scale.
@@Jump-n-smash Yeah, and most likely if it ships to your house you're gonna need to assemble some part of the bike. Always better to torque to specs.
Never ever cycle your suspension with the pump hooked up, the pressure spikes will ruin the accuracy. This is basic gauge care.
Totally agree! Specially on a Manitou fork that has the Dorado air speing like the Mezzer and Dorado itself because doing so might end up shortening the travel of the fork.
Fox forks look crap nowadays .