A friend who was a good friend of Jon Vickers told me that he said that the secret of singing Tristan was to carefully study the dynamics and sing the part as it is written. It is because too many worry about not being heard, don't, and sing too loudly that they run into difficulty. I heard Rheingold at Covent Garden last with a young, well-schooled cast, and hardly any shouting.
@@Horichdaslicht1858 You can’t do that though if your voice isn’t big enough to begin with though, unless you are Windgassen and essentially force the conductor to turn the volume down of course.
Nilsson and Jones I heard live. Nilsson on many occasions. Both had large voices. Jones could be exciting if often wide of the pitch (sharp) and with a dependable and exciting top extension. Nilsson's voice sounded seamless from top to bottom, fully integrated. He top was as dependable as death and taxes--witness her late Elektras. I heard her sing the Immolation Scene when she was 61. Not a single glitch. This is what great technique coupled with a great instrument does for a singer. The two later singers in this compilation (I don't know them) have already ruined whatever voices they had through a lack of proper technique. Neither can sing Brunnhilde's "Heil, Heil" from A to C. One gives a short yelp in the general direction and the other simply sings something akin to B-flat. "No dear, give us your HIGHEST C" used to be a joke about singing flat. This can't even be called that. It's simply amateur vocalism of the worst sort. I do not know those last singers and I am not writing this to denigrate them, only to comment on the snippets shown here.)
If you go further back, say to the 30s, when we had Melchior, Svanholm, Flagstad, Leider, Traubel, Schorr, Kipnis, Reinmar, Schoffler, Fuchs, Rethberg, Muller, Lemnitz, Thill, and on and on, the decline is far more catastrophic.
EXACTLY...i ve recent years listened to as many as i could...to imprint the SOUND of the STANDARDS ..and there is no question ...the greatest of them all...from any generation were FLAGSTAD AND MELCHIOR...but that doesn t mean the others up to 1950 s were not of those levels...JUSTthat they were all a DIFFERENT species altogether...with the authenicity of the MUSICALITY going with their phrases...unbelievable
i seem to recall FLAGSTAD explain in her retirement..."advice to singers interview" ..that WAGNER IS BEL CANTO..and that she was educated to just "let the voice grow" into the repertoire..and "never to attempt wagner too early..."."everything has to be in the right place before advancing...that is why i never had technical problems..." assuming of course BIG voices like hers...but she said "her early CAREER"WAS a "lot of light appropriate to my development" roles.."operettas.." etc...
It's not a singer's fault, not a teacher's fault for any decline generally, it's a lack of funds. Singers would live with/near their teacher and sing with them daily, not being allowed to sing without their teacher's guidance. There's no money for that nowadays, I'm at the best school in my country and we only get an hour with our tutors a week. If you're upset at a decline in singing, find those with good voices and sponsor them yourself.
Vocal quality is one thing; the other being that while today's singers are busy enough trying (and often failing) to be heard over the orchestra (thus mostly screaming) singers like Nilsson and Widgassen had voices big enough so they could focus on giving their singing character and beauty. I'm always overwhealmed how much personality and emotion these old singer could covey with just their voices. And the recordings we luckily have really are a treasure.
I know little about opera, but could it be that it was a lot more popular in the past, therefore, there were a lot more singers studying it, and a better selection to work from, while today it's a rather niche preference, and therefore, the selection of people who have training is less, and thus, it's that much harder to find a truly gifted singer?
its not the quality of the voices! its ONLY technique! modern singing technique is bad, and works not at all for dramatic voices and repertoire. lighter voices can geht through somehow but dramatic voices can not develop their power und destroy themself.
@@DorotaGabal no, we have know much more singers than EVER. Its a completely wrong technique. Technique for recordings with microphones but not for loud singing on big stages Technique for pop singers with microphones but not for opera.
there are films , one even a FULL one..i think it was SIGFRIED or DIE WALKURE..of the great FLAGSTAD herself (with WINDGASSEN)..included is the audience it is incredible...FLAGSTAD in the late years 1950 s and STILL as fresh and PURE in her power and tone. beyond belief really..must have been 60 by then...she sounded and looked like she was just having FUN!!...her famous tenor MELCHIOR also...near 70!! making full performance recordings like it was a piece of cake! all of those great ones ..towards the very taxing roles endings always piling climax upon climax..always gave you the feeling that they could REPEAT the performance in the same evening after a few glasses of wine and cigars..
Well I think some singers do, they're just to full of themselves to change, furthermore some have become opera stars and make quite a lot of money with their poorly trained instrument. So why change?
Onus is still on the singer to do their own research. So many in the opera world tend to play the victim. “It’s the teachers fault!” Go. Find. A. Good. Teacher. Evaluate your own choices. You are a result of your own choices, not somebody else’s.
You need not forget about the conductors and the Agentur. It's not just bad teaching. And the teaching: when you haven't been on stage with it, you have no idea of just what the sound is. How in the hell can you teach it when your experience is just academic?
@@jamestaylorstudios28 I agree that multiple groups of people are at fault too by enabling this culture. IDK about others, but any teacher and coach I’m paying for better have personal and physical experience with what they’re teaching and I will make sure.
I think the reason opera singing is in decline is because there is little demand for opera itself. Worse than that, opera is highly demanding of the voice. Most singers know they can make more money doing pop songs and barely have to sing at all.
"Opera is in decline". " Jazz is in decline" They've been saying such for decades. I am certain also that singers that choose to pursue opera are not doing so with an expectation of making a lot of money. It was rumored that Leontyne Price commented she was glad that Aretha Franklin chose popular music.
I love Gweneth Jones as any Wagnerian heroine! I also feel that Birgit Nilsson was unsurpassable. They were both excellent dramatic sopranos. I also love Max Lorenz and Freda Lieder in old studio recordings. Rene Kollo is another tenor I love. His studio recording of Rienzi is amazing!
I was a subscriber to the Opera, I am no longer. Horrible sets, awful staging and pathetic singers, no thank you. I stay at home with my "old" singers! Thank you for the demonstration, it is ruthless.
Unfortunately, spot on. I'm insulted by producers of operas today who expect their audiences to take them seriously. "Relevant" and "woke" don't work for me at all.
I recommend you to check out This is opera! channel on UA-cam. The Author explains the difference beetwen great opera singing of the past and what is happening today. Very informative.
Es muy muy preocupante lo que esta pasando con Wagner, las producciones dan mas importancia a la escenografía que a los cantantes y eso nos trae resultados desastrosos
Uno de los problemas principales, además de lo que decís ciertamente de las escenografias, es que las orquestas van afinando cada vez más altas... pero las cuerdas vocales no tienen clavijas para andar ajustando. Es absurdo, pero a los directores les basta con que uno vaya ritmicamente perfecto y que la orquesta suene lo más fuerte posible y brillante.
The first clip should not be held up as a standard. It’s awful! He’s so out of tune. Totally exhausted, and couldn’t be less enthusiastic. Jones does her usual wobbly thing, though keeps it roughly in control here. The second is beneath contempt, but please don’t extol things that don’t merit it. In interviews in 1980s conductors were already worried about not finding Siegfrieds and Wotans. This shows you why.
This clip came up again in my list and it occurs to me to say you should have included the only soprano after her that could match Nilsson’s top voice, Jennifer Wilson, who was vilely excluded in NY while the horrific Voigt and Stemme were engaged. Wilson’s Valencia ‘Ring’ is remarkable, especially for the brilliance of the ‘acuti’.
Yes, I totally agree. Jennifer Wilsons high c in Götterdämmerung from the Valencia ring is the most beautiful high c I have ever heard! But sorry to say is that uniqe these days.
I have seen five Ring cycles in my life, including Bayreuth, and enjoyed them. The apparent deterioration in singing, production values may be attributed to ambitious General Managers or Music Directors putting on a Wagner work when they neither have, or can engage, suitably equipped performers and directors. If a house has, or can get, a Miss Nilsson or Mr Windgassen, let's go to work! If not, they must tailor their coat according to their cloth. Regrettable no doubt but wise. Will this put 'bums on seats'? I don't know - I just stomp up the cost of a ticket and sit in the theatre. Engaging 'trendy' directors can be a risky business, as we in London know too well, and finding the right commercial/artistic balance is a fine judgement. Miss Jones was the best of her generation, not to my taste, as, no doubt, are her colleagues and the big houses that have the audience for Wagner can only engage the singers that are around. If you can only engage lyric voices, then you may, necessarily, only put on lyric works. Am I right? Heaven knows.
The first present-day Götterdämmerung Brünnhilde went through a number pitches trying to get to a high C and, bless her heart, never got there. The second one I think wasn't even singing on a well-tempered scale.
Normally Linda Watson actually sing descent high C but here she is terribly flat and short. Evelyn Herlitzius, Linda Watson and Gwyneth Jones are quite equal except for Jones who always was very steady on her high notes. Birgit Nilsson was of course in a league of her own singing Brünnhilde for almost 30 years.
Your video has good intentions. But if you are looking at the past and comparing it to the present day, where are Flagstad and Svanholm? Not filmed but certainly recorded! Sigurd Björling posed the same question to Walter Legge after his first and only season at Bayreuth after the re-opening in 1951.
Jones always seemed to be pushing her voice into the Brunnhilde's. I do not know who the second ones are but they are horrible. The soprano can't even keep enough voice to finish the final line. Of course every soprano of the 20th Century except Flagstad sounds amateurish next to Nilsson and the tenor in the other renditions are horrible to a person. Even the bel canto repertoire has not suffered this much abuse. Wagner expected bel canto vocal technique to be applied to his writing; he would turn over in his grave to hear these horrors.
@@duy-anhnguyen5890 Traubel would not have shown well here, since she had no C, and, I believe, never sang the note in performance. There is a failed attempt in a concert with Melchior and Toscanini.
Стенания о том, что раньше все было лучше, подкрепленные тенденциозным выбором видео, полная чушь. Такие как Флагстад бывают раз в 200 лет, а Нильсон в 100. Счастливчики те, кто слышал. Но слава богу можно слушать живьём прекрасных певцов сейчас. Счастлив, что застал и Далайман, Ватсон и Теорин в лучшей форме. Они были великолепны на сцене. И сейчас есть очень хорошие, ищите, обсуждайте, аплодируйте или кричите бу! Это помогает отбору. А старческое нытье ничему не помогает.
You must always assume that if bel canto is doing poorly, Wagner is even worse. Look at Watson. The prologue is maybe 20 minutes into the opera and the voice is already tired. I can only imagine what the rest sounded like.
yeah, probably cuz they could acceptable beat and abuse their students back then. There's nothing like physical and mental threats and stress from abuse to make someone push harder and louder 🙃 downside, they don't live very long
Blob-culture in which everyone is presumed gifted, and babied with moral flourishes is the poison debasing all the arts, and this converging with a robotic, hyper-technical obsessiveness to the exclusion of genuine feeling and expression that is churning out soulless drivel, and again not just in opera but rock music, poetry, visual arts, et al. The most tragic outcome is that there are brilliant people in all these fields but they are being passed over to indulge those satisfying socio-political ideals and all accompanying schlock-dom.
With every new generation of singers and teachers, we lose so much history and tradition, let alone, technique... if you think about who the teachers are today, and the teachers in Nilsson's time, usually university or conservatory trained with little or no professional careers. I don't think there is proper training for pedagogy for truly great teachers! We are looking so hard for new "stars" that we push young singers into roles they are not right or ready for, let alone have the training for properly learning a role. Just my opinion.
Am a musical dinosaur.......thank GOD!!!!! I have heard the best and known some. The blight exhibited in these bytes scans the entire spectrum of musical performance.......notably pianists.
Hahahaha i thought the first one was the bad example and then the second one came in... they were both terrible! The only good example here is the one with Birgit Nillson!
I agree they were both bad. The 70s was when vocal technique began to decline, so using an example from the 80s wasn't the best choice. But to be fair, I think that particular passage is a cluster fuck so it's hard to make it sound good in the first place.
The downturn's been going on for more than fifty years. But it's the same in Verdi too. As for Gwyneth Jones, is she supposed to be an example of good singing? If so, all hope is lost!
@@milanetc4865 - But why would she allow that horrible performance to be memorialized and spread around the world? I would have made it my life's goal to destroy any existing recordings.
The new singers are appallingly bad. I cannot imagine why anyone would go to a Wagnerian opera nowadays. I heard both Jones and Nilsson in their primes in Chicago, London, and New York and both their voices were even bigger and better than they sound here. Jon Vickers waarss also absolutely spectacular in anything he did as he acted well and with his voice surpassed any other tenor I heard in over 50 years of regular opera going.
Aside of these comments, may I recommend Bruno Walter's recording of act one of "Die Walkyre" with Lotte Lehmann and Lauritz Melchior. Melchior is a little self-indulgent with his notes but a thrilling performance of the act as a whole. These dramatic singers are a matter of taste and one production may be spoiled by a dodgy tenor or a rickety old set. Is there a perfect 'Ring'? There are plenty to choose from!
I kinda like Gwyneth Jones, but compared to Flagstad, Traubel and Nilson she is not even close to them u know?... And these scene was terryble (The tenor was a mess scenecally and vocally).
Jones was much more than a Wagnerian Soprano, also she could really act, also was an excellent musician and artist and a very nice person with it, listen to her in Trovatore or Don Carlos, I met her first after her success in Covent Garden, she had a very big voice also, with excellent C's and D's her place is amongst the best, I saw Nilsson many times, perhaps over a hundred, she was always excellent vocally, but sometimes she could be cold, Melchior was asked which were is favourite Wagnerian Soprano's he said without hesitation Lottie Lehmann and Frida Leider , he was asked Flagstad , Brilliant voice but the Scandinavians can be cold, Lottie and Frida were very warm, he said of Nilsson whom he did appear in Concert with, she has ice in her veins and Glory in her voice. I have had a very long life, believe me there were singers in the Chorus that were better than nearly all the present day singers that I have heard, in Pre WW2 Days, my first encounter with Wagner was as a boy of 8 , my father had been a leading Tenor in the Chorus at Covent Garden from 1909 till 1940, he virtually heard all the great singers and appeared with many of them in that period, he had heard Tamagno whilst Training in Italy in 1898 he first heard Caruso in 1897 even then he was regarded as the greatest in the World, he also saw De Rezke in Paris and in Concert in London. I was born in a musical family not only my father also my mother was a trained pianist and accompanied many famous singers, Widdrop and Piccaver were friends and I enjoyed their company. Sometimes Joseph Hislop came with Widdrop, to our home and I always thought that he was a rather strange, he was tall and thin and he was rather abrupt, but he always straight to the point, especially when they talked Opera, of course he trained Nilsson, but I was there when Widdrop asked my father about Caruso, my father said he was a singer that was made in Heaven, nobody he said he had heard could match the quality and beauty of his voice, Hislop agreed as did Widdrop, my Mother said she heard Caruso in Monte Carlo for the first time and she cannot remember anyone making her cry in Opera like he did. Back to Wagner, I said I heard Wagner first at the age of 8 in 1927, I was with my mother in Covent Garden to meet with my father they had been rehearsing the Final act of Gotterdammerung, I was allowed with my mother to watch quietly in the Auditorium, the singers who I remember were Rudolf Laubenthal and the Soprano was Nanny Larsen Todsen a very fine figure of a woman I thought in my young years. These were proper Wagnerian Singers and were superb, Todsen had taken over from a ill Frida Leider, Coates was Conducting, my first full Wagnerian opera was a Tristan in 1931 with Melchior Leider and Branzell that was incredible , I also saw Melchior in Otello in that season as well, later I saw Melchior and Flagstad together in Tristan and Gotterdammerung, Martinelli in Otello Tosca Turandot Aida and Carmen , what a singer he was also, but Wagnerian singers then were superb, in all aspects Lorenz Bockelmann Janssen Schlussnuss Lawrence Thorburg et al. After the War with the retirement of Melchior in 1950 the Tenors became scarcer, Lorenz had lost a lot since the War, there were many Soprano's Grob Prandl was always excellent and Nilsson came on to the scene like a whirlwind and took all before her and rightly so, Flagstad was still Majestic and I had heard Modl in Austria in 1950 she also was a very great Brunnhilde Vinay was another who alternated between Tenor and Baritone in Wagner with great success, Vinay and Martinelli were also the two best Actors as Tenors that I ever saw, they would make you watch them on the stage, great presence and very agile with it, also they both had great voices. I watched this singing with a dismay, modern Singers are not singing in Wagner, they are like the sound of a To be naughty a " Pisspot " ugly and like they are under the bed, why try a high note if you don't have them, come down and do not scream. Damn Awful, I would ask for my money back.
I also think she's not on the same league as Nilson on this repertoire, but it was much better than contemporary. Also, that production is also likely to be the best available in the UA-cam with subtitles
Das fehlen mir geradezu die Worte um zu schreiben, wie es heute um den Gesang für Richard Wagner steht. Abgrundtiefe Traurigkeit überkommt mich. So schlecht fällt der Vergleich aus. Aber hören sie selbst.
Most of today’s singers can’t hold a candle to the great voices of years past in opera. I was only a vocal student in College, but I don’t think that the majority of today’s singers are being taught the proper vocal production skills by their teachers; the classic methods have unfortunately fallen by the wayside in too many cases.
What I dislike about these videos is that they always choose purposefully bad modern examples while choosing the best examples from the past. If you compare modern studio recordings with these old opera movies, it doesn't look nearly as bad. Yes there are some horrible singers on big stages today. But there are also great ones. Sadly they are never represented in these videos.
Yesterday we had properly trained singers. Today we have hog callers who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a stage. It amazes me how lacking in self awareness these people are that they can get up on a professional stage and make this racket. It also amazes me that people seem to be willing to pay money to witness this mess.
The level of criticality has been reduced, it started with three tenors who attracted many new listeners to the opera who were not at all sophisticated
Windgassen is perfectly audible. Though he sounded better in the 50's, along with Varnay, Mödl, Nilsson and Harshaw. Del Monaco or Corelli? You must be kidding, pffff.
@@brunegilda2453 Windgassen is audible when he sings alone, but is not audible when singing the HIGH NOTES in a duet with Nilsson. Just like the other tenors. Strange situation when the tenor opens his mouth and you can't hear him...Pull up some videos where Nilsson sings together with Corelli. Totally different story. He is always audible in the high notes sung together by both. Without further elaboration: a result of his singing technique. And there were probably only a handful of tenors able to hold up against strong sopranos in these situations.
Del Monaco was a wonderful Otello and Corelli a fine Calaf in Turandot, but neither would have been able to sustain an entire Wagner role, especially the Ring & Tristan. Even Jonas Kaufmann said he'd never sing Siegfried.
the SUMMARY ...tells it all...especially with the sopranos...OMG! give them some KARAOKE video with MAGIC MIC to help them out!!! undressed..that oughta DISTRACT the audience...
Und es wird schlimmer und schlimmer. Bayreuth verkommt zu einem Provinztheater, aber Hauptsache die Häppchen schmecken, und der Schampus ist gut gekühlt.
Well you had pretty bad performances in the past. And you still have very good ones in the present. Style is changing sometimes. But for instance think of Rene Maison and Klaus Florian Vogt. I would prefer Klaus Florian Vogt on every given day. I had so many bad Lohengrins with a very famous Tenor of the 80ies. Now there are pretty good ones around. Andreas Schager is a fantastic Tenor. And his Siegfrieds and Tristan mostly don't have any cuts. I'm only speaking of Tenors I personally heard in live performances. So no. I think we will have a lot of good Wagner Singers in the future. Sometimes you have to find them, but they will be there.
The problem here lies in the fact that listening to singers of the past, we hear only the best of the best, and the rest are forgotten. I have not attended an opera since lockdown, but on the issue of tenors, I heard Stefan Vinke in the Ring at the ROH and Andreas Schager as Parsifal at Bayreuth. Both are real Heldentenors, which Windgassen despite all his qualities, never was, and not many know Alberto Remedios, probably because he usually sang in English. The great William Mann once wrote, "The Golden Age of singing is perpetually the one prior to that in which we are living at present." (I await a storm of derision)
How irritating those weak voices must have sounded in the theater. Absolutely useless! That’s the thought that came to mind the first time I got to witness the performance of an inaudible “opera” singer. Useless!!!
late 20th singers beyond NILSSON...ALL , at what should be their best years..sound already so TIRED in the throats..lots of WOBBLY notes with unclear PITCH....often flat...scooping..woofy . lacking CLEAR polished tone...often also cutting short notes.. by contrast...LIVE..WINDGASSEN AND NILSSON...sound and LOOK like true young lovers..as if full of vigor and fresh excitement at life....
Proof that Wagner doesn’t destroy singers but singers destroy Wagner
Well said!
A friend who was a good friend of Jon Vickers told me that he said that the secret of singing Tristan was to carefully study the dynamics and sing the part as it is written. It is because too many worry about not being heard, don't, and sing too loudly that they run into difficulty. I heard Rheingold at Covent Garden last with a young, well-schooled cast, and hardly any shouting.
@@Horichdaslicht1858 You can’t do that though if your voice isn’t big enough to begin with though, unless you are Windgassen and essentially force the conductor to turn the volume down of course.
The modern Brunnhildes seems to have invented a B-nearly-sharp.
Nilsson and Jones I heard live. Nilsson on many occasions. Both had large voices. Jones could be exciting if often wide of the pitch (sharp) and with a dependable and exciting top extension. Nilsson's voice sounded seamless from top to bottom, fully integrated. He top was as dependable as death and taxes--witness her late Elektras. I heard her sing the Immolation Scene when she was 61. Not a single glitch. This is what great technique coupled with a great instrument does for a singer. The two later singers in this compilation (I don't know them) have already ruined whatever voices they had through a lack of proper technique. Neither can sing Brunnhilde's "Heil, Heil" from A to C. One gives a short yelp in the general direction and the other simply sings something akin to B-flat. "No dear, give us your HIGHEST C" used to be a joke about singing flat. This can't even be called that. It's simply amateur vocalism of the worst sort. I do not know those last singers and I am not writing this to denigrate them, only to comment on the snippets shown here.)
@@thomasdeansfineart149linda watson
If you go further back, say to the 30s, when we had Melchior, Svanholm, Flagstad, Leider, Traubel, Schorr, Kipnis, Reinmar, Schoffler, Fuchs, Rethberg, Muller, Lemnitz, Thill, and on and on, the decline is far more catastrophic.
Absolutely correct. No contest!
As catastrophic. Please, in the 50's we had Varnay, Grümmer, Rysanek, Treptow, Suthaus, Windgassen on top form...
en effet...
EXACTLY...i ve recent years listened to as many as i could...to imprint the SOUND of the STANDARDS ..and there is no question ...the greatest of them all...from any generation were FLAGSTAD AND MELCHIOR...but that doesn t mean the others up to 1950 s were not of those levels...JUSTthat they were all a DIFFERENT species altogether...with the authenicity of the MUSICALITY going with their phrases...unbelievable
@@brunegilda2453 and Harshaw, Vinay, Svanholm, etc.
Look, I know nothing about opera but JESUS Birgit Nilson must have a freakin volume control knob inside her. She's a force to be reckon with
i seem to recall FLAGSTAD explain in her retirement..."advice to singers interview" ..that WAGNER IS BEL CANTO..and that she was educated to just "let the voice grow" into the repertoire..and "never to attempt wagner too early..."."everything has to be in the right place before advancing...that is why i never had technical problems..." assuming of course BIG voices like hers...but she said "her early CAREER"WAS a "lot of light appropriate to my development" roles.."operettas.." etc...
It's not a singer's fault, not a teacher's fault for any decline generally, it's a lack of funds. Singers would live with/near their teacher and sing with them daily, not being allowed to sing without their teacher's guidance. There's no money for that nowadays, I'm at the best school in my country and we only get an hour with our tutors a week. If you're upset at a decline in singing, find those with good voices and sponsor them yourself.
The difference in focus and clarity of the voices is astounding. We need a vocal renaissance ...
And that is just the start. Screaming without core leads to a festival of flats and sharps, not to mention shorter notes.
They sing as if they had a wad of cotton in their mouths. No attempt to make the correct vowel sounds leaves us with caterwauling.
DIAFRAMMA!!! DIAFRAMMA!! DIAFRAMMA!!! Questa è la differenza...
Was that an attempt at a High C at 2:49?? Sounded like "Oh, I don't have it. F*** it.""
LMAO Yeah XD
Aaaaaaahahajahajahakaja!!!
Vocal quality is one thing; the other being that while today's singers are busy enough trying (and often failing) to be heard over the orchestra (thus mostly screaming) singers like Nilsson and Widgassen had voices big enough so they could focus on giving their singing character and beauty. I'm always overwhealmed how much personality and emotion these old singer could covey with just their voices. And the recordings we luckily have really are a treasure.
I know little about opera, but could it be that it was a lot more popular in the past, therefore, there were a lot more singers studying it, and a better selection to work from, while today it's a rather niche preference, and therefore, the selection of people who have training is less, and thus, it's that much harder to find a truly gifted singer?
Dorito Yes, that does has to do with it. Opera will never die of course but it's suffering a bit IMO.
its not the quality of the voices! its ONLY technique! modern singing technique is bad, and works not at all for dramatic voices and repertoire. lighter voices can geht through somehow but dramatic voices can not develop their power und destroy themself.
@@DorotaGabal no, we have know much more singers than EVER. Its a completely wrong technique. Technique for recordings with microphones but not for loud singing on big stages Technique for pop singers with microphones but not for opera.
there are films , one even a FULL one..i think it was SIGFRIED or DIE WALKURE..of the great FLAGSTAD herself (with WINDGASSEN)..included is the audience it is incredible...FLAGSTAD in the late years 1950 s and STILL as fresh and PURE in her power and tone. beyond belief really..must have been 60 by then...she sounded and looked like she was just having FUN!!...her famous tenor MELCHIOR also...near 70!! making full performance recordings like it was a piece of cake! all of those great ones ..towards the very taxing roles endings always piling climax upon climax..always gave you the feeling that they could REPEAT the performance in the same evening after a few glasses of wine and cigars..
Yesterday : Flagstad, Melchior, Traubel, Varnay, Modl, Nilsson, Windgassen, Lorenz, Hotter, London, Weber, Frick, Neidlinger, VIckers, Uhde..Today: NOTHING !!!
You could add a whole bunch of other names to Yesterday such as Rethberg, Jeritza, Lotte Lehmann, Leider, Schorr, Janssen, Kipnis etc. Today Nothing!
And please do not forget Grob Prandl in the list
Hans Hermann Nissen, Maria Reining, Ludwig Suthaus, Gunther Treptow, Ludwig Hoffmann...
Sigurd Björling too. One of the best Wotans ever.
List, Habich, Böhme, Alsen...
Blame the bad teachers because most singers don't realize they're not singing with the best technique.
Well I think some singers do, they're just to full of themselves to change, furthermore some have become opera stars and make quite a lot of money with their poorly trained instrument. So why change?
@@NJE100 That still falls under "not realizing" IMO.
Onus is still on the singer to do their own research. So many in the opera world tend to play the victim. “It’s the teachers fault!” Go. Find. A. Good. Teacher. Evaluate your own choices. You are a result of your own choices, not somebody else’s.
You need not forget about the conductors and the Agentur. It's not just bad teaching.
And the teaching: when you haven't been on stage with it, you have no idea of just what the sound is. How in the hell can you teach it when your experience is just academic?
@@jamestaylorstudios28 I agree that multiple groups of people are at fault too by enabling this culture.
IDK about others, but any teacher and coach I’m paying for better have personal and physical experience with what they’re teaching and I will make sure.
I think the reason opera singing is in decline is because there is little demand for opera itself. Worse than that, opera is highly demanding of the voice. Most singers know they can make more money doing pop songs and barely have to sing at all.
asdas saddasd They can’t do Wagner.
asdas saddasd that much is true.
@2 Ssj vocal god you sound like JDF
@2 Ssj vocal Interesting comparison.
"Opera is in decline". " Jazz is in decline" They've been saying such for decades. I am certain also that singers that choose to pursue opera are not doing so with an expectation of making a lot of money. It was rumored that Leontyne Price commented she was glad that Aretha Franklin chose popular music.
Are your freakin' kidding me at 5:30???
Funniest shit I've seen all day.
@@FueganTV LMFAOOOOO
I love Gweneth Jones as any Wagnerian heroine! I also feel that Birgit Nilsson was unsurpassable. They were both excellent dramatic sopranos. I also love Max Lorenz and Freda Lieder in old studio recordings. Rene Kollo is another tenor I love. His studio recording of Rienzi is amazing!
Nilsson was at best a lyrical soprano while Jones perhaps a spinto.
@@tonshaad1230 You're joking. There was nothing lyrical and spinto-ish about Nilsson and Jones.
I was a subscriber to the Opera, I am no longer. Horrible sets, awful staging and pathetic singers, no thank you. I stay at home with my "old" singers!
Thank you for the demonstration, it is ruthless.
Unfortunately, spot on. I'm insulted by producers of operas today who expect their audiences to take them seriously. "Relevant" and "woke" don't work for me at all.
WTH is the Soprano doing at 4:42???? I have farted better high C's.
I recommend you to check out This is opera! channel on UA-cam. The Author explains the difference beetwen great opera singing of the past and what is happening today. Very informative.
Es muy muy preocupante lo que esta pasando con Wagner, las producciones dan mas importancia a la escenografía que a los cantantes y eso nos trae resultados desastrosos
Uno de los problemas principales, además de lo que decís ciertamente de las escenografias, es que las orquestas van afinando cada vez más altas... pero las cuerdas vocales no tienen clavijas para andar ajustando. Es absurdo, pero a los directores les basta con que uno vaya ritmicamente perfecto y que la orquesta suene lo más fuerte posible y brillante.
5:28 she' s burning up!
Her toes maybe.
The first clip should not be held up as a standard. It’s awful! He’s so out of tune. Totally exhausted, and couldn’t be less enthusiastic. Jones does her usual wobbly thing, though keeps it roughly in control here. The second is beneath contempt, but please don’t extol things that don’t merit it. In interviews in 1980s conductors were already worried about not finding Siegfrieds and Wotans. This shows you why.
This clip came up again in my list and it occurs to me to say you should have included the only soprano after her that could match Nilsson’s top voice, Jennifer Wilson, who was vilely excluded in NY while the horrific Voigt and Stemme were engaged. Wilson’s Valencia ‘Ring’ is remarkable, especially for the brilliance of the ‘acuti’.
Yes, I totally agree. Jennifer Wilsons high c in Götterdämmerung from the Valencia ring is the most beautiful high c I have ever heard! But sorry to say is that uniqe these days.
Jennifer Wilson is the best modern brünnhilde
Damn! Nilsson.... unreal!
2:46 what the hell was that???
I have seen five Ring cycles in my life, including Bayreuth, and enjoyed them. The apparent deterioration in singing, production values may be attributed to ambitious General Managers or Music Directors putting on a Wagner work when they neither have, or can engage, suitably equipped performers and directors. If a house has, or can get, a Miss Nilsson or Mr Windgassen, let's go to work! If not, they must tailor their coat according to their cloth. Regrettable no doubt but wise. Will this put 'bums on seats'? I don't know - I just stomp up the cost of a ticket and sit in the theatre. Engaging 'trendy' directors can be a risky business, as we in London know too well, and finding the right commercial/artistic balance is a fine judgement.
Miss Jones was the best of her generation, not to my taste, as, no doubt, are her colleagues and the big houses that have the audience for Wagner can only engage the singers that are around.
If you can only engage lyric voices, then you may, necessarily, only put on lyric works.
Am I right? Heaven knows.
The first present-day Götterdämmerung Brünnhilde went through a number pitches trying to get to a high C and, bless her heart, never got there. The second one I think wasn't even singing on a well-tempered scale.
LOL 🤣🤣🤣
@@kotiplessa _ It really isn't funny, we pay good money to hear singers who should be able to sing on pitch.
Normally Linda Watson actually sing descent high C but here she is terribly flat and short.
Evelyn Herlitzius, Linda Watson and Gwyneth Jones are quite equal except for Jones who always was very steady on her high notes.
Birgit Nilsson was of course in a league of her own singing Brünnhilde for almost 30 years.
1:57 Include what you think is the BEST modern recording of this last scene, not the worst.
A very decent Siegfried with great conducting. The Brunhilde leaves much to desire but us tolerable
Jennifer Wilson is one example of a good modern Brunhilde
The Siegfried with Jennifer Wilson and Mehta is the best modern "recording". It's production however is not so nice.
Your video has good intentions. But if you are looking at the past and comparing it to the present day, where are Flagstad and Svanholm? Not filmed but certainly recorded! Sigurd Björling posed the same question to Walter Legge after his first and only season at Bayreuth after the re-opening in 1951.
Jones sublime!
The soprano at 2:49 is a joke. Cracks happen but even before that she was totally derailed.
Jones always seemed to be pushing her voice into the Brunnhilde's. I do not know who the second ones are but they are horrible. The soprano can't even keep enough voice to finish the final line. Of course every soprano of the 20th Century except Flagstad sounds amateurish next to Nilsson and the tenor in the other renditions are horrible to a person. Even the bel canto repertoire has not suffered this much abuse. Wagner expected bel canto vocal technique to be applied to his writing; he would turn over in his grave to hear these horrors.
You forgot Helen Traubel. She is a textbook example of great singing.
Rude
look the great Astrid Varnay up
@@duy-anhnguyen5890 Traubel would not have shown well here, since she had no C, and, I believe, never sang the note in performance. There is a failed attempt in a concert with Melchior and Toscanini.
@@agnesferenc9763 The greatest!
Стенания о том, что раньше все было лучше, подкрепленные тенденциозным выбором видео, полная чушь. Такие как Флагстад бывают раз в 200 лет, а Нильсон в 100. Счастливчики те, кто слышал. Но слава богу можно слушать живьём прекрасных певцов сейчас. Счастлив, что застал и Далайман, Ватсон и Теорин в лучшей форме. Они были великолепны на сцене. И сейчас есть очень хорошие, ищите, обсуждайте, аплодируйте или кричите бу! Это помогает отбору. А старческое нытье ничему не помогает.
Birgit Nilsson
You must always assume that if bel canto is doing poorly, Wagner is even worse. Look at Watson. The prologue is maybe 20 minutes into the opera and the voice is already tired. I can only imagine what the rest sounded like.
I've seen Windgassen's Siegfried: a dream come true.
And that’s recent past. Can we go back to 20s, 30s, 40s? 👀
Do you have the video of birgit and Wolfgang singing that duet, the full video?
I wish I knew where that was from. I've only seen it here.
@@adriand6883 it was part of a german TV documentary about Birgit Nilsson around 1970.
It was great, but lip synced to the Decca recording
Past will be the best, maybe music teachers in the past are much better
yeah, probably cuz they could acceptable beat and abuse their students back then. There's nothing like physical and mental threats and stress from abuse to make someone push harder and louder 🙃 downside, they don't live very long
@@pink_alligator You confuse the demand with the mistreatment, that shows your ignorance ... Sure you are a follower of Kauffman ...
Blob-culture in which everyone is presumed gifted, and babied with moral flourishes is the poison debasing all the arts, and this converging with a robotic, hyper-technical obsessiveness to the exclusion of genuine feeling and expression that is churning out soulless drivel, and again not just in opera but rock music, poetry, visual arts, et al. The most tragic outcome is that there are brilliant people in all these fields but they are being passed over to indulge those satisfying socio-political ideals and all accompanying schlock-dom.
With every new generation of singers and teachers, we lose so much history and tradition, let alone, technique... if you think about who the teachers are today, and the teachers in Nilsson's time, usually university or conservatory trained with little or no professional careers. I don't think there is proper training for pedagogy for truly great teachers! We are looking so hard for new "stars" that we push young singers into roles they are not right or ready for, let alone have the training for properly learning a role. Just my opinion.
Falta de entrenamiento para Wagner! Nilsson una maestra!!!
Am a musical dinosaur.......thank GOD!!!!! I have heard the best and known some. The blight exhibited in these bytes scans the entire spectrum of musical performance.......notably pianists.
Hahahaha i thought the first one was the bad example and then the second one came in... they were both terrible! The only good example here is the one with Birgit Nillson!
I agree they were both bad. The 70s was when vocal technique began to decline, so using an example from the 80s wasn't the best choice. But to be fair, I think that particular passage is a cluster fuck so it's hard to make it sound good in the first place.
The downturn's been going on for more than fifty years. But it's the same in Verdi too. As for Gwyneth Jones, is she supposed to be an example of good singing? If so, all hope is lost!
I remember not being taken by Manfred Jung all those years ago. And yet...
Today Siegfried is weak. But Brunnhilde is the worst!
Maybe she's tired
Coastal Patios 1 LOL
@@milanetc4865 - But why would she allow that horrible performance to be memorialized and spread around the world? I would have made it my life's goal to destroy any existing recordings.
The new singers are appallingly bad. I cannot imagine why anyone would go to a Wagnerian opera nowadays. I heard both Jones and Nilsson in their primes in Chicago, London, and New York and both their voices were even bigger and better than they sound here. Jon Vickers waarss also absolutely spectacular in anything he did as he acted well and with his voice surpassed any other tenor I heard in over 50 years of regular opera going.
Do you have the rest of the performance of Götterdämmerung on video??? Can I get a copy?
Aside of these comments, may I recommend Bruno Walter's recording of act one of "Die Walkyre" with Lotte Lehmann and Lauritz Melchior. Melchior is a little self-indulgent with his notes but a thrilling performance of the act as a whole.
These dramatic singers are a matter of taste and one production may be spoiled by a dodgy tenor or a rickety old set.
Is there a perfect 'Ring'? There are plenty to choose from!
The last clip... why she turn her head and neck like that?
past- yas bae~!
present- he is shouting, and she prays to be audible 🤣🤣🤣
I kinda like Gwyneth Jones, but compared to Flagstad, Traubel and Nilson she is not even close to them u know?... And these scene was terryble (The tenor was a mess scenecally and vocally).
Jones should have never attempted Brunnhilde: she's a Sieglinde.
Jones was much more than a Wagnerian Soprano, also she could really act, also was an excellent musician and artist and a very nice person with it, listen to her in Trovatore or Don Carlos, I met her first after her success in Covent Garden, she had a very big voice also, with excellent C's and D's her place is amongst the best, I saw Nilsson many times, perhaps over a hundred, she was always excellent vocally, but sometimes she could be cold, Melchior was asked which were is favourite Wagnerian Soprano's he said without hesitation Lottie Lehmann and Frida Leider , he was asked Flagstad , Brilliant voice but the Scandinavians can be cold, Lottie and Frida were very warm, he said of Nilsson whom he did appear in Concert with, she has ice in her veins and Glory in her voice.
I have had a very long life, believe me there were singers in the Chorus that were better than nearly all the present day singers that I have heard, in Pre WW2 Days, my first encounter with Wagner was as a boy of 8 , my father had been a leading Tenor in the Chorus at Covent Garden from 1909 till 1940, he virtually heard all the great singers and appeared with many of them in that period, he had heard Tamagno whilst Training in Italy in 1898 he first heard Caruso in 1897 even then he was regarded as the greatest in the World, he also saw De Rezke in Paris and in Concert in London.
I was born in a musical family not only my father also my mother was a trained pianist and accompanied many famous singers, Widdrop and Piccaver were friends and I enjoyed their company. Sometimes Joseph Hislop came with Widdrop, to our home and I always thought that he was a rather strange, he was tall and thin and he was rather abrupt, but he always straight to the point, especially when they talked Opera, of course he trained Nilsson, but I was there when Widdrop asked my father about Caruso, my father said he was a singer that was made in Heaven, nobody he said he had heard could match the quality and beauty of his voice, Hislop agreed as did Widdrop, my Mother said she heard Caruso in Monte Carlo for the first time and she cannot remember anyone making her cry in Opera like he did.
Back to Wagner, I said I heard Wagner first at the age of 8 in 1927, I was with my mother in Covent Garden to meet with my father they had been rehearsing the Final act of Gotterdammerung, I was allowed with my mother to watch quietly in the Auditorium, the singers who I remember were Rudolf Laubenthal and the Soprano was Nanny Larsen Todsen a very fine figure of a woman I thought in my young years.
These were proper Wagnerian Singers and were superb, Todsen had taken over from a ill Frida Leider, Coates was Conducting, my first full Wagnerian opera was a Tristan in 1931 with Melchior Leider and Branzell that was incredible , I also saw Melchior in Otello in that season as well, later I saw Melchior and Flagstad together in Tristan and Gotterdammerung, Martinelli in Otello Tosca Turandot Aida and Carmen , what a singer he was also, but Wagnerian singers then were superb, in all aspects Lorenz Bockelmann Janssen Schlussnuss Lawrence Thorburg et al.
After the War with the retirement of Melchior in 1950 the Tenors became scarcer, Lorenz had lost a lot since the War, there were many Soprano's Grob Prandl was always excellent and Nilsson came on to the scene like a whirlwind and took all before her and rightly so, Flagstad was still Majestic and I had heard Modl in Austria in 1950 she also was a very great Brunnhilde Vinay was another who alternated between Tenor and Baritone in Wagner with great success, Vinay and Martinelli were also the two best Actors as Tenors that I ever saw, they would make you watch them on the stage, great presence and very agile with it, also they both had great voices.
I watched this singing with a dismay, modern Singers are not singing in Wagner, they are like the sound of a To be naughty a " Pisspot " ugly and like they are under the bed, why try a high note if you don't have them, come down and do not scream. Damn Awful, I would ask for my money back.
@@robertevans8010 Thank you for your account. Did you ever see Jussi Björling and if so, what did you think of him?
I also think she's not on the same league as Nilson on this repertoire, but it was much better than contemporary. Also, that production is also likely to be the best available in the UA-cam with subtitles
@@robertevans8010 mr evans, if I did the math right, you're over a 100. Is that correct? Have you got the chance to hear Madame Callas
Sehr interessant!
might we know who the awful screamers are so we can avoid them?
Linda Watson, Evelyn Herlitzius, the Tenor could be Stephen Gould, but i´m not sure
Uy realmente preocupante....y con todo lo que molestan para poder estudiar la carrera de canto, uno espera una buena formación....
Das fehlen mir geradezu die Worte um zu schreiben, wie es heute um den Gesang für Richard Wagner steht. Abgrundtiefe Traurigkeit überkommt mich. So schlecht fällt der Vergleich aus. Aber hören sie selbst.
You can't go to a Wagner opera today without being assaulted by mediocrity....
Most of today’s singers can’t hold a candle to the great voices of years past in opera. I was only a vocal student in College, but I don’t think that the majority of today’s singers are being taught the proper vocal production skills by their teachers; the classic methods have unfortunately fallen by the wayside in too many cases.
i'm dead now
who were the present days ones?
Today is important body, good actor our actress and young singers, but voice now are in second plan/place... 😔
Just waiting LISE DAVIDSEN ?
I love, always, NINA STEMME.
Stemme is horrible. wobbly and at times, off the tune.
Jones top
The 1964 tenor is singing 'in the mask'
Und Jung war schon nicht geeignet für die Rolle..
What I dislike about these videos is that they always choose purposefully bad modern examples while choosing the best examples from the past.
If you compare modern studio recordings with these old opera movies, it doesn't look nearly as bad. Yes there are some horrible singers on big stages today. But there are also great ones. Sadly they are never represented in these videos.
the only good "modern" siegfried is the one with mehta. The rest are trash.
Yesterday we had properly trained singers. Today we have hog callers who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a stage. It amazes me how lacking in self awareness these people are that they can get up on a professional stage and make this racket. It also amazes me that people seem to be willing to pay money to witness this mess.
The level of criticality has been reduced, it started with three tenors who attracted many new listeners to the opera who were not at all sophisticated
@@alotMizrIs that a bad thing? Surely opera is for everybody?
@@CanadianMonarchist Of course not good. Opera is not an elitist genre
Oh my
gould was not bad at all, but the soprano next to him a pure desaster 🙂bless her though!
Where are the tenors? Non audible in the high notes. None was able to keep up with the sopranos.....del Monaco or Corelli should have sung here....
Windgassen is perfectly audible. Though he sounded better in the 50's, along with Varnay, Mödl, Nilsson and Harshaw. Del Monaco or Corelli? You must be kidding, pffff.
@@brunegilda2453 Windgassen is audible when he sings alone, but is not audible when singing the HIGH NOTES in a duet with Nilsson. Just like the other tenors. Strange situation when the tenor opens his mouth and you can't hear him...Pull up some videos where Nilsson sings together with Corelli. Totally different story. He is always audible in the high notes sung together by both. Without further elaboration: a result of his singing technique. And there were probably only a handful of tenors able to hold up against strong sopranos in these situations.
Del Monaco was a wonderful Otello and Corelli a fine Calaf in Turandot, but neither would have been able to sustain an entire Wagner role, especially the Ring & Tristan. Even Jonas Kaufmann said he'd never sing Siegfried.
"Even Jonas Kaufman"😂😆
Sounds like you didn't look very hard for today's singers! Especially using the same duo twice! LOL
the SUMMARY ...tells it all...especially with the sopranos...OMG! give them some KARAOKE video with MAGIC MIC to help them out!!! undressed..that oughta DISTRACT the audience...
5:30 Help!
The new singers are f*ckin horrendous.
1980 singers aren't that terrible but not good either.
"past" vs present
Hahaha Clear! Definitely Dämmerung....
Des problèmes techniques vocaux évidents 😮
Und es wird schlimmer und schlimmer. Bayreuth verkommt zu einem Provinztheater, aber Hauptsache die Häppchen schmecken, und der Schampus ist gut gekühlt.
Well you had pretty bad performances in the past. And you still have very good ones in the present. Style is changing sometimes. But for instance think of Rene Maison and Klaus Florian Vogt. I would prefer Klaus Florian Vogt on every given day. I had so many bad Lohengrins with a very famous Tenor of the 80ies. Now there are pretty good ones around. Andreas Schager is a fantastic Tenor. And his Siegfrieds and Tristan mostly don't have any cuts. I'm only speaking of Tenors I personally heard in live performances. So no. I think we will have a lot of good Wagner Singers in the future. Sometimes you have to find them, but they will be there.
The problem here lies in the fact that listening to singers of the past, we hear only the best of the best, and the rest are forgotten. I have not attended an opera since lockdown, but on the issue of tenors, I heard Stefan Vinke in the Ring at the ROH and Andreas Schager as Parsifal at Bayreuth. Both are real Heldentenors, which Windgassen despite all his qualities, never was, and not many know Alberto Remedios, probably because he usually sang in English. The great William Mann once wrote, "The Golden Age of singing is perpetually the one prior to that in which we are living at present." (I await a storm of derision)
Vogt? The mosquito? How can someone even like his voice??
How irritating those weak voices must have sounded in the theater. Absolutely useless! That’s the thought that came to mind the first time I got to witness the performance of an inaudible “opera” singer. Useless!!!
late 20th singers beyond NILSSON...ALL , at what should be their best years..sound already so TIRED in the throats..lots of WOBBLY notes with unclear PITCH....often flat...scooping..woofy . lacking CLEAR polished tone...often also cutting short notes..
by contrast...LIVE..WINDGASSEN AND NILSSON...sound and LOOK like true young lovers..as if full of vigor and fresh excitement at life....
1:58 que vergonha!
😱
Manfred Jung is actually quite good, I think.
Gwyneth Jones should never have sung Brunnhilde she sounded awful.
Honestly, I thought she was going to be the modern example. Not my favorite.
But who today could sing it better? We put up with Jones in the eighties but today's singers are intolerable.
she was a wonderful Brunnhilde. Her voice was bright and very large, and she also was slim
😂😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
god is this awful!
the first two are bad.
They sound amazing!
I agree
I agree. Jones lost her voice in the early-70s after her accident and the siegfried at the beginning is from 1980.
Terrible
Shouldn't Manfred Jung be seriously cited as an example of high singing culture?
He wasn't a very good singer.
They don’t teach singers to sing with core anymore. They call it “pushing.” 🥲 People also sing with the wayyy too much air in the sound.