We got some things wrong… Fellow tarnished archaeologists, Thank you all for watching and engaging with our DLC trailer video. The response has been amazing. As many of you have pointed out, we got a few things wrong: most importantly, while the DLC will tell us much more about Marika’s past, per Miyazaki it does not take place in the past, or perhaps even the pseudo-past like Bloodborne’s DLC as we suggested. But that’s what we get for releasing our unadulterated first impressions without reading all the interviews, watching other UA-camrs, reading Reddit, etc. How this Shadow Realm relates to the story and history of the main game is indeed quite mysterious, because we **can** see features of the Lands Between in this trailer. So that will be a topic for future videos. In the future we probably won’t release similar brainstorming videos. Our skills are better suited for the long-form analysis and deep dives, rather than initial reactions. Still, though, it was really fun for once to be involved in the initial wave of crazy speculation! This is something we’ve never done before and it was fun to be swept up in the excitement like everyone else. So thank you all for engaging and participating. Most importantly, all of your comments (both corrective and creative) and theories have given us much to think about. Of course we’ll have to wait until the DLC is actually released to begin doing what we do best, which is, ya know, looking at potsherds and broken statues, but in the meantime we hope to release a more thoughtful video on the nature of the Shadow Tree. This is indeed one of the core mysteries of the trailer, and as we teased in the video, there is much in the main game to learn about this Shadow Tree, the Erdtree, and the strangler. So if that’s something you’re interested in, stay tuned for more Tarnished Horticultural analysis of the Shadow Tree! TA
Don't worry, it's ok to make mistakes, especially when being swept up with all the new possibilities and details. I personally appreciate your honesty and the "owning up to it" part, which shows great integrity. This doesn't take anything away from your amazing previous work though. Have a great day :)
@@GeodesicBruh There were no mistakes. It was an off the cuff review. The splash nail literally says unhinged, similar to a lot of the comments that followed.
You did identify a few things that nobody else pointed out, I wish people would focus on that, like the arches on the roads and the potential for this being a dreamworld like in BB (I think it's extremely possible that's how we experience the past without needing to time travel). I hope you revisit the trailer to do another analysis in the near future because there were some excellent observations there that you should follow up on imho.
With all the weird shit going on there we might as well toss him over the shoulder and drag Gideon on a field trip to the shadow lands so he doesn't demand a report every 5 seconds.
When shooting the lightining attack the lion's nouth is completly open, as the hand is not holding it anymore. So there are only two hands in the front and there ir another guy below him
I'm confused as to why apparently so few people seem to see a rune bear. It's a rune bear with horn growths. I mean, it's right there? It even sounds like a rune bear. Which already follows from what can be seen for rune bears of the Lands Between. Zullie, who dug out the details, speculated a very likely draconic tie, but maybe it's also omen or misbegotten-related, considering the strong red tinge. We might be getting dragon hearts from draconic rune bears, who are even larger and stronger and prowl the Land of Shadow. That's pretty exciting.
Not sure if anyone will read this. I recently fought Mohg in preparation for the DLC and noticed something interesting in his opening cutscene. 1. Mohg appears from the blood from Miquella’s hand (pretty obvious) but it dawned on me that Mohg was staying/living “inside” Miquella and in his dream. This is backed up when Mohg says the line “Dearest Miquella. You must abide alone a while.” And then he turns to fight us. I think Mohg was living in the DLC realm and might have influenced the realm there. We might see some traces of his influence- and possibly the influence on Messmer himself
I also thought of something like that. Maybe Messmer is in the cocoon and he's the alter ego of Miquela in secret. Messmer either fought Marika and stabbed her abdomen or to make sure she was dead or imprisoned and fell into a slumber in the cocoon but was stolen by Mohg and fed the blood so he could enter the dream and find Miquela. Something like that
Holy shit how have I not seen anyone else piece that together yet? I've always wondered why he comes out of Miquella's blood like that. Mohg uses bloodflame sorcery and it looks like so does Messmer.
@@theghosty99 thanks! And great point about the Blood Flame sorcery and the flames that Messmer uses. The way I understood it is Mohg is mixing blood with his flame attacks that are influenced by The Formless Mother? Maybe Messmer isn’t under the same influence of The Formless Mother, so he has the regular flames like the Redmanes, Flame Giants and Mt. Gilmer(?)
@@Fmakegeo6 just had another thought.. We might have a connection/explanation to the butterflies as well. 1. Nascent butterflies = Miquella 2. Aeonian butterflies = Malenia 3. Shouldering butterflies = Messmer Especially since Miyazaki-san confirmed that the story in the DLC is based on GRRM world building and nothing “new” was created for the lore
Miyazaki confirmed in an interview with Famitsu, that the DLC does not occur in the past. I think he also said the DLC does not take place in the Lands Between. He called the tree in the trailer picture the Shadow Tree, and said that it was a symbol for the Shadow Lands, much like the Erdtree is a symbol for the Lands Between.
knowing from and miyazaki, he will portray the shadow lands in an ambiguous way, leading is to think about whether or not its the shadow lands that are the real lands between rather than the lands between we play in in the base game.@@lapple5574
@@lapple5574as far as I know that is just a theory but I don't think so. Miazaki I believe said that the shadow lands used to be connected to the lands between but was somehow banished. It's hard to remember exactly what is theory and what is fact but I believe he stated that in an interview. Another theory is that the reason the lands between is called that is because it is the lands between the shadow lands and the lands of the light or something to that effect.
As a few people have pointed out, Miyazaki specifically stated in an interview that this is NOT set in the past, that is it the present day but a place that was physically displaced from reality. Makes me think that perhaps the huge gap in the middle of the map is not in fact a crater but this section of land. Glad you're doing a full analysis video down the line, given most of these analyses probably aren't correct if it's not just the lands between in the past.
Holy crap, Miyazaki said the map was a bit bigger than Limgrave. This fits the picture. It also suggests there may have been more than one erdtree at once which appears to fit with all the dead tree stumps in deeproot.
I think him saying this isn't the Lands between is a technically truthful misdirect. The geography matches too well. The fields of caelid with Dragonbarrow in the distance, what looks to be Stormveil cliff, another possible look-alike with the Shaded Castle, Shadow-Leyndell and several other locations that are too close to existing places to be a coincidence.
@@Joust149 Just admit it. Tarnished Archeologist got this whole thing wrong. This also puts into doubt all his previous speculative analysis given how far off the mark he is on this. The DLC takes place in the present day in a different land, and you heard it straight from the creator himself.
The name Messmer immediately makes me think of Franz Mesmer, an 18th century German physician who experimented with magnets and believed in a force between animate and inanimate objects called "animal magnetism". His name is where we get the term "mesmerize", ie to hypnotize or enthrall someone.
Someone pointed out the headdress of the person in Carian hall is the same as on the carian inverted statue. Since it's set in the present time, It isn't Rennala.
Maybe it's another Carian royal? For me, the lore has always implied that the Carian family has many members besides Rennala and her children, it is said that there were many Carian knights who served several Carian princesses, as Rennala only had Ranni and no other daughters, there would have to be other branches of the family
right i think he/she looks not like Rennala herself, and more like a regent type with his/her demaneur. i always asked myself why its told like there were many othersCarians before Rennala but we find only her. @@davisiotta489
@@Nemo12417 it's not a joke. Rune Bears dropped dragon hearts in the network test, and they still have draconic eyes. Humans evolved from beasts which evolved from dragons.
look closely now - you can see it is probably a human being (it's legs) using some draconic runebear roar incantation. It looks exactly like dragon incantation
@@GeneralTaco155555a but they dont drop them in the actual game. So either it was a mistake or it was a concession they made for the playtest to let people try different dragon incantations.
Notes that you'll surely find repeatedly in the comments: There are 2 interview from Miyakazi detailing somethings in the DLC. 1- The DLC happens in the Present, but your point of "the DLC details things of the past" still stands because this land was put in shadows in the past and everyone "forgot" about it. 2- The Lion was spoiled by miyazaki himself: It's a Dancer from a culture that was erased with the coming of the Erdtree. 3- He also repeats that this Shadow Lands contain information of the time before the Erdtree. 4- This is my speculation but it's from the interviews: There are Great Kanatas and Colossal Katanas among the new Weapon types, this leads me to believe that "The Land of Reeds" with their Civil Wars Problably is not outside the lands between but it was "shadowed" by Marika. We do have Moon and Meteorite Katanas in the game.
I think you're on the money with that "shadowlands are eastern/asian" theory. It probably corresponds to the missing chunk of the map to the east, which used to connect Caelid to the Mountaintops, and everything between. The "lion dancer" is also clearly inspired by Chinese culture.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic it makes sense until get to Godfrey. Godfrey is supposed to be our link to that time before the Erdtree Religion and nothing from his time is eastern. I assume that, whatever easter civilization there was, was gobbled up alongside this chunk of land that is In Shadows. I say this because the Mountain Top's Map says that the highest peak in the lands between is to the South of the Forge. But in game "south of the Forge" is that Straight line crossing the giant Chasm. ITS EMPTY. This Veil is over half of the continent. So there should've been "bystanders" that were gobbled up with no involvement with the Golden Order
@@thechairman1306 the game is not out yet and by the interviews the shadows lands were a part of the lands between. They arent now so there should be differences in culture. But the interview with Miyazaki stated that the cultures of the Land of Shadows are the Culture before the Erdtree worship of the Lands Between.
@@ThiagoCRocha-fh6lg That's not what he said. What he said is that it was a separate land that could be accessed from the Lands Between, but no longer can because Marika has hidden it,
Hey Tarnished. I have a theory I haven't heard anyone talk about yet and I'd be curious on some second opinions. I think the Land of Shadows is the crucible of the Erdtree and there's some evidence to support it. First, the overview shot of the shadow tree is quite literally a crucible. I find that the most compelling reason and hard to overlook. It's dumping the liquid similar to a crucible. It's also stated that the Land of Shadows is the first place Marika stepped into the Lands Between. Based on the timeline videos, we know that to be the crucible itself. An interview with Miyazaki said it's where Marika became a god and the Golden tree was born. There's also the HEAVY theme with the omen horns. We already know from the large amount of item descriptions that things like horns, tails, wings, etc were common during the crucible era. Most of the creatures in the trailer share these features. Messmer included. The snakes attached to him have wings growing out of them and he has draconic/snake eyes. I think this land exists parallel to the lands between. The souls offered by the Erdtree burial are used to fuel the crucible to create life.
So with the way that grafting of scions works with trees, it makes the most sense that the Erdtree would have been born somewhere else and then grafted to the Crucible, where it eventually won out over the other scions and took over the deeproots. So the Crucible would have been on top of the trunk, where we can see one tree end and a new tree begin above the throne area in Leyndell, where you fight Morgott and Godfrey.
This. Totally this. yes. Totally rad. and I love the idea that the crucible is like a living furnace for the erd tree... damn, I don't even want to argue with that, I accept this speculation! But, while the shadow land is parallel, I think it's a living suspended past event, like Farum Azula, or even Night City in a way. Banished but containing it's past context. Not time travelling perseee, a past time still present... ahem. I think that's why we even see crucible knights at all in the Lands Between, something I always felt odd about considering how long ago their group existed. They crossed over from this suspended shadow land time and were like...wtf did we DO!!
seems all right. It's probably a reminiscent of the crucible age when Marika and the other Numen first settled in the lands Between. Like the ships. But what if the pillars of the ancient civ tells the story reversed, that the landing of the ships is the end their history? Anything in these shadow Lands shouts Crucible Creatures Characteristics you mentioned, and it feels like a forceful overridden World by Marika with all the taboos of the past through. The things related to messmer look all very heretic, like his crest! It depicts a flame like frenzied flame, a cursed looking one, a flame like crown at the buttom. It's hard to tell from the trailer what messmer's connections are. But the flames could also be a mixture of Rykard's flames from House Vulcan and the blood flames of Mohg. Or the flame of the Outer God of the Giants. But Messmer's Crest resembles the frenzied flame
Something I have not seen anywhere is how Messmer's visual design appears heavily inspired by Hermes/Mercury. The staff he holds in his left hand and the twin winged snakes seem like a twisted or evil version of the Caduceus. His sandals and winged helmet also appears to be deliberate visual cues to remind us of popular depictions of that deity. Perhaps they have decided to double-down on the trickster part of Hermes' portfolio, or meld his design and story with other famous trickster deities. His fiery red hair and association with the the mountaintop of the giants (where we find likely past victims that have been impaled by his iconic spears) indicate some Loki influence in his design and story as well. I am not as well read as the archaeologists here about the myths of Hermes and Loki. Perhaps there is some clue in the myths of these figures that might tell us more about Messmer. Or perhaps Miyazaki-san is simply using historic visual cues to let us know Messmer is a trickster and a cad.
This is interesting I also though of a slightly different deity ,Asclepius, given Marika's obsession with Ruling over death and her fear of the gods dying coupled with the fact the snake that surrounds Messmer actually has a snakes head on both ends. instantly made me remember how Asclepius was slain by zeus out of his fear of making men immortal.
If you take a look at the gladiator designs and the collectors edition of his helmet you can see his head piece is a direct inspiration for it. Then as you look at the both sets you can see the resemblencenm, likely that messmer was defeated once and his likeness was used for the the gladiators.
The lion also seems to draw inspiration from the lion dance. I haven't seen anyone mention that if you look closely, it's two people within the lion -- one standing on another's shoulders. Also, the inner set of teeth on the lion are exactly similar to the teeth on the costumes worn in a lion dance.
it's been confirmed in interviews by Miyazaki that it's the lion dance, not the same mythology at all, and that that was an ancient culture erased in the normal world
I have heard everyone mention that from the very first time they saw it. This is pretty much what everyone who actually looks at the trailer would think of.
The lion is clearly inspired by the dancing lion/dragons from chinese new year festivals (you can see multiple pairs of arms and legs under the shawl, manipulating the head and casting the lightning miracles, twisting and corkscrewing. Its an incredibly inspired design and must've been hell to animate but well worth it. The roar incantation is very obviously a bear, you can tell from its longer snout, longer than any feline's and broad head. Its like a rune bear but even more draconic.
Why would he notice that when he didn’t even pay attention to the trailer or any of the news? First few minutes in and everything he says is demonstrably wrong (right up until he talks about the strangler dog, which is only arguably wrong. I see one tree with two branches… the glow of the supposed fig is also in the vertical trunk of the supposed victim) You can’t look at that geography, those buildings, and say “this is the lands between in the past. Oh this here is Caelid before the bloom” and that’s without knowing the very very public announcements about it being the present in a new land, The Land of Shadow. During the Shattering? What? That’s not what even what the thing about GRRM said! It was just saying it was still based on his lore. 🤦
@@joearnold6881 Your asessment is indredibly low-resolution. 1. I mean how does that NOT look like two trees? You can even see the parasitic brances of one tree strangling another... 2. The architectural details match incredibly well with those of the eternal cities, if you're not familiar i suggest you look at them in-game yourself. 3. We know 100% that the Eternal Cities were all above ground at some point in the past, including the lower half of Leyndell that today is just an abyss, the Nameless Eternal City IS the missing part of Leyndell. 4. Just because the Land of Shadows is showing us things of the past doesn't mean it's IN the past, the Veil itself probably was used by Marika to "hide the past" in the present. Otherwise i'd be curious to see your counterarguments and not just "this is dumb, this guy is wrong".
It may actually be 3 people as when you first see it has a robe lump in the rear too making it longer while its still tall with the 2 beings standing on-top making the height and 1 more making the length... I think its like a Chinese Dragon with multiple people making the boss in function look bigger
@@sidewaysfcs0718it does not look like caelid or leyndell at all, both the geographically and the buildings are completely different. Why would a counter argument be needed when there isn't even a decent argument for why these places would be caelid or leyndell in the first place? On top of that, it has 1. already been specified that the dlc is a completely different area and 2. It would mean that the dlc is completely different in size to what miyazaki has already stated as leyndell and caelid are quite far from each other.
Ok wait Miyazaki said this takes place during the main game it’s not set in the past or the future. I haven’t heard anyone else say that the person around 6:30 here is Rennala, let alone a past version of her. We know this is a shadow land mirroring the lands between so it would make SENSE to have a shadow counterpart to Rennala but I haven’t seen anything telling me that’s ACTUALLY Rennala. Can someone correct me or shed some light? Regardless, I love your videos man. Your methodical academic approach to exploring all of this is my absolute favorite lore exploration style on UA-cam and you continuously blow my mind :)
Yeah, Miyazaki said in the interview this isn't the past or future clearly. He stated this is just another realm happening beside the events of the main game. No time travel.
it could be another member of the family but certainly not a queen or king since it was Rennala who placed the Carians as royalty and the DLC was already said to be set in a different land, not the future or the past@@NecroBanana
This video is embarrassing frankly. Just a couple minutes in and it’s nonsense. It’s clear he didn’t look at the trailer half as closely as the rest of us
As someone else said, Messmer seems to drive from mesmer, a word commented to mesmerism and "mesmerized." Those references to compulsion seem to align with Miquella's known ability to compel love for him in others. It also seems significant that the first time we see him, it's a shot of his unnaturally-elongated hand and arm, one very similar to the hand and arm hanging from Miquella's cocoon. Instead of being fire magic akin to Mt. Gelmir's, could that be the Formless Mother's blood magic, the type Mogh was trying to instill in him? With the Miq/Mel line's red hair, the Mohg/Marg blood magic, and the Rykard serpent imagery, it would seem this Messmer has aspects of all Marika's brood.
Yes thank you for mentioning the elongated proportions of both Miquella and Messmer - nobody seems to have noticed that and it's bugging me. We see some people with those proportions but they are typically all zombie-like inhabitants of the Lands Between, Goldmask, or the Alabaster/Obsidian Lords. None of the other demigods have those kind of slender, stretched out limbs and fingers.
The dlc is not set in the past. It's a alternative world that takes place at the same time as the main story. Also i think Messmer is the third child of Marika based on the flaming butterfly.
Yeah, kinda kills half the lore speculation in the video when the entire premise and setting is missed. That wasn't Caelid in the beginning either (The Shadow Land is a completely separate land according to Miyazaki).
I interpret it as a sort of dream world where memories of the past and visions of the future are intermingled. The bedchamber veil shrouding the whole world is my inspiration for this idea, and that we're probably entering the realm of shadow by interacting with slumbering Miquella's egg. Also I think that the strangler tree is an extension of the deathroot spreading from Godwyn's corpse
He didn't confirm that it was another world, just another place in the world. The lands between is a continent, the dlc will just take place on another land mass.
If you watch the lion boss scene carefully, you can see that there are multiple people inside, stacked on top of eachother. There is also a set of hands working the artificial mask/jaw.
Absolutley - it's clearly at least two people inside of a costume reminiscent of the chinese lion dance (wǔshī) I believe, where several people operate the costume in coordination with each other - you can see some examples here.. ua-cam.com/video/8-JGrwOtv-I/v-deo.html I remember being mesmerised by seeing a performance of this in London as a child so it is instantly recognisable!
As commented about Bloodborne, this is probably a dream type situation, where we go to a shifted version of the past, considering all the Miquella/ st Trina dream related stuff and cut content having a lot to do with dreams
@@RenegadeStriker7 my dad Miyazaki said that you teleport to the Shadow Land and that it was cut off from the physical world by means we will see when we play. I think it was the Famitsu interview.
@@ricardojanateMiyazaki said in an interview that the DLC area used to be a part of the lands between but has been separated from it by something. No time travel and I would heavily doubt that it’s a dream realm from how he’s talked about it
@@kynos6219 dreaming is probably our way of traveling to other places This is basically what happens when Melina puts us to sleep and we wake up in Farum Azula dreaming is probably just the way out of the in-between lands perhaps? since Farum azula and the shadow lands are not exactly in the lands between
As soon as I saw the trailer my first instinct was to stare at architecture and try and make connections, love your channel, and all its bountiful discoveries.
I wonder if the main tree in the dlc is actually the tree of the order before Marika, and the parasite is the erdtree we know from the post-shattering base game
There are ship wrecks seen from general Radarns boss fight and there is a starting character choice with a mariner background. Miyazaki said you need to defeat Radarn as well as Mogh to start the dlc. Some lore lated to Radarn stopping the stars and the ability to enter the Shadow realm of the erdtree. Maybe Messmer has been trapped in the shadow realm because of General Radarn's gravity magic.
There are supposedly small, direct hints of Messmer in Elden Ring already. There is a Catacomb of the Impaler and a ghost mentions Marika's "unwanted child." Could be something to look into.
The Impaler's catacombs has been confirmed to have nothing to do with Messmer and the ghost is referring to the Walking Mausoleums, soulless demigods that are "unwanted" by Marika
I don’t think that Messmer was involved in the Shattering at all. In fact, I think he was killed right at the start of it, if not banished to the Realm of Shadow at an earlier point. There was most certainly an attack against the Erdtree by forces loyal to the Great Serpent. However, the fact that this event was reenacted in the Colosseums already tells us that this conflict happened in the very early days of the Golden Order. After all, it was only after the banishment of Godfrey that the Colosseums doors were closed to the public as Radagon took the Elden Throne, which as far as I can tell took place before the Shattering War. To further support this conflict was in the ancient past, it is said that Rykard “rediscovered” Gelmir’s ancient hex magic, which puts this conflict at least prior to Radagon’s marriage to Rennala. However, if we are operating under the assumption that Radagon was always Marika, their selfcestuous relationship could date back to even before Godfrey was Elden Lord, meaning that Malenia, Miquella, and likely Messmer are by far Marika’s oldest children. So, the conflict against the Great Serpent, with Messmer likely rebelling against his mother, clearly happened long before the Shattering. However, given that it was in the early days of Godfrey’s reign and after Destined Death was sealed, Messmer could not be killed. He was likely banished to the fringes of the empire afterwards, most likely the Weeping Peninsula, as we can find the Impaler’s Catacombs on its northeastern cliffs. After this point, I think Marika either banished him to the Shadow realm, or, more likely, he was one of the demigods killed in the Night of Black Knives. Just a short ride away, we can find our first Wandering Mausoleum, with a ghost describing this particular one as Marika’s “unwanted child.”
I don’t think Messmer being Marika’s oldest child means that Miquella and Malenia are also Marika’s oldest, otherwise Marika would have no reason to call Radagon back from Rennala
@@christopherlyndsay8611I don’t think Radagon returned to Leyndell just to answer a booty call. I think Human Justicar made a really good video explaining what the exact political role of Elden Lord was based on the family structure of Japanese royalty. Essentially, the emperor would have two women as primary childbearers and sources of legitimate heirs, the first being the emperor’s wife, who was often (rather incestuously) from within a branch of the royal family herself, while the other woman was something called a “clan concubine”. These women came from outside of the royal family and were married as part of a political alliance between the emperor and some other influential family. Her children would be lower down the totem pole as far as becoming the emperor’s successor, but if his wife failed to birth a suitable heir, then the integrity of the royal bloodline would still be maintained. She essentially argues that this secondary role is analogous to the position of Elden Lord, while Marika’s primary consort was always Radagon/herself, again rather in/selfcestuously. Given what past Elden Lords brought to the table, it makes sense to view their relationships in a primarily political light, carried out for the mutual gain of both parties. Godfrey was the most fearsome warrior the land had ever seen, and Placidusax had an army of dragons and beastmen in his service. So essentially, the Elden Lord is just Marika’s side hoe. Going back to Radagon abandoning Rennala, I think him becoming Elden Lord was simply to keep up appearances of a functioning Erdtree society. The general populace had no idea they were the same being, and there was some plausible deniability on the origin of their children. Messmer was likely scrubbed from the history books at this point, while Miquella remained a perpetual child, and his sister was eternally decaying
@@michaeljohnston8891 if anything Radagon returning from Rennala damaged political relations more than helped them, as Caria became an enemy once again. It also wouldn’t make sense if Miquella and Malenia just appeared out of nowhere as adults, suddenly saying they were demigods. Something else that shows that they were born later is the statue of Malenia, Miquella and Godwyn, in which Malenia is depicted as a child - showing that Godwyn is older than Malenia.
One interesting thing I noticed is that the woman standing next to the old man in the painting has black hair, if you zoom in, you can see that she has black hair very well hidden by the cloak and the shadow on her face so I guess that's a big no to everyone who was theorizing that this was Marika or Fia
everyone like "thats a deathbed companion"! but it think her cloak is a mix of that and the Blood Nobles. Remember that Mogh did influence this Land a lot with his presence using Miquella as a door maybe?
@@antijoscha1690 I think it's more likely that Mohg was influenced by Messmer and the Shadow Lands than the reverse. Mohg learned his bloodflame sorceries from somewhere, it makes sense it would be from the guy who seems to have all the markings of every heretical magic and symbol
after listening to a bajillion trailer/interview analyses, I think there are a several misses here, but it's still very impressive for an unadulterated interpretation
Wow I'm here early! Looking forward to your takes on the DLC, along with all the other lore theorists. Edited For Thoughts Following: I found myself thinking about a few of your videos, especially the "First Burning of the Erdtree", while watching the trailer. Regarding the veil, it also calls to mind the Baldachin Blessing. That said, I'm not sure if it's quite where stated at the start of the video in the timeline. It could be translation wonkiness, but I took the interview as the content being based on GRRM's writings in the same way everything else is. Ie: he wrote the background info, and this is drawing from stuff not previously seen. I also don't think the woman in the trailer is Rennala. Her face doesn't line up, though the likeness does resemble the statue that flips the tower holding Ranni's corpse. The lion boss also, personally, brings to mind Lion Dancers more than anything else in its motions. This doesn't discredit other lion pelt theories, but is worth considering. Worth pointing out though, the roar from the incantation is more Bear-Like. Possibly connected to the Rune Bears?
I also immediately thought of the radiant baldachin blessing. Too bad the video creator decided not to look at the trailer or think at all. Just within the first couple of minutes everything they say is wrong. It’s not in the past. It’s not Caelid That’s not Roderika This isn’t Siri g the shattering That’s not the normal tree supposedly being choked by a creeper vine (honestly it just looks like two branches of one tree to me, the glow even goes up what would be the trunk of the victim tree, but that’s arguable). Whatever is happening to it, it’s a different tree to the erdtree, either completely or a shadow or dream version of it
At this point I'm pretty sure the land of shadows is metaphysically underneath the lands between. The original game is in the lands "between" the land of shadows and the land of the stars. To transition between lands, you must abandon your body, which is why miquella "divested himself of his flesh" to go to the land of shadows, and why ranni is transforming everyone into pure spirits to go to the land of stars in her ending. Since marika "first set foot" in the land of shadows, it makes sense to think she would come from there. Marika is a Numen, and we don't know where the numen come from or where did they go. Miyazaki said we would experience a new culture, so it would make sense to think that the land of shadow is filled with Numen culture.
I disagree. "First set foot" sounds like the first arrival to a new location, after departing from your homeland. I think we're going to get a culture that she arrived into, and maybe eventually decimated on her path towards creating the Golden Order of the Lands Between.
TA- I absolutely love that you took a swing at this and let us into your mind looking at first impressions. You heavily caveated that, too. Thanks for the insights on your working process and first thoughts, and please don’t shy away from sharing more rough drafts just because of strangely critical nerds. I love your voice and analyses so much.
everything makes more sense if melina is merika's sister + also the gloam eyed queen ... their names are even more similar in japanese btw .... so it would then follow that the messmer is the third sibling of malenia and miquella and thus connected to smoldering butterflies
I think this video could use a rewrite, as it is to my understanding built upon a false premise, that the DLC would be in the past, which it is not according to Miyazaki's other interview. He says its on different physical plain from the lands between, but within the same universe and neither past nor future. So another piece of land I assume, meaning new parts and fills for the "current" story we play as the tarnished. So yeah...
Not gonna lie, this was the most unhinged speculation you have done so far. I have no clue where you gather that the DLC scene is the Land between from the past when it is literally stated in interviews already out that the DLC plays in the present in a Land completely seperate, where Marika first arrived. Pretty much everything you say is for some reason based on the false premise that this is the past.
Yep. Waaaay off on a lot of the theories it seems. But I love that he’s giving us his initial thoughts. We won’t know what’s really happening until release so it’s all fun and games til then!
When I first saw the trailer I thought that messmer was miquella's formless mother corrupted form and that we were going inside of miquella dreamland to free him of mohg's machinations. I was so wrong lmao
They do purposely show Messmer's hand first before they reveal him in his entirety in the trailer, and it is very similar to Miquella's hand hanging out of his cocoon... It was very deliberate, why did they do this?
@@user_J117literally just to fool me I guess. Show family resemblance? I think hands can just be evocative though. The gangly arms do fit with his ambling energy.
Wild random speculation: The Shadow Lands are actually the central part of the landmass. In the Lands Between, there's a big ocean in the middle of the continent; what if there was once land there and it was hidden away in the Shadow Lands? It would explain how a zone allegedly "the size of Limgrave, maybe larger" could contain so many disparate areas that appear to come from all over the Lands Between. It would also explain how the Erdtree's shadow could be present (as opposed to the Shadow Lands being physically distant from the Erdtree). The Erdtree in the Lands Between is actually growing up out of the ocean next to Leyndell, but if that "ocean" is actually part of the landmass of the Shadow Lands, then the tree would actually be inside the landmass.
Sorry but did you read the Interviews? You speak as if this dlc takes place in the past but is allready confirmed that take place in the same time as base game just on a different realm
The DLC doesn’t take place in the past, but it may still show us things from the past. The Old Hunters DLC from Bloodborne is a good example of what that might look like.
@@willowparker-ct3pq yes but from the Interview the realm of shadow is not a "copy" dimension that duplicates thing of the past but a hidden world who was part of the normal world but for some story related stuff got "sealed" away, more like the painted world than the Hunters nightmare, so everything here is "new" that tree is not the Erdtree but its "shadow" (whatever that means) , we are not getting to see what happen but what is happening on the other side, obviouslly we can get glimpse of the past like the "Lion" boss that IS said in the Interview to be part of the culture that existed before marika became a god , but is because this culture was preserved.
Just because it was stated that the DLC "does not occur in the past" does not mean it can't contain representations of older periods or historic events. The comparison made with the Hunter's Nightmare from Bloodborne seems plausible. We're likely talking about dreams/nightmares after all. Yet another great video by TA 😄
I know it's speculative fun but, speaking so matter of factly about things so off the mark, especially with what's been established already it is very irksome.
I love how unhinged this is. Especially when Miyazaki said this takes place in a separate land in conjunction with the main story. And every part of this video seems to be based on the premise that this is taking place in the Lands Between before the shattering
There's so much great video analysis going on and I love the strangler vine and the fact you saw the ship! I haven't heard anyone talk about the ship yet!
I know its not a competition, but I personally find this channel to be the one to provide the most insight in to the game for me. So glad to see you put your two cents on the trailer!
TA provides a lot of cool theories and insight, but also makes wild assumptions that are most likely false and derail the rest of their arguments. Just in this video, assuming the dlc is set in the past, (which not only there isn't any indication for it, but Miyazaki himself has contradicted) leads him to say things like a zone is past Caelid (why? there's literally no evidence of this!), that a man (gender to be confirmed) who doesn't look like Rennala is somehow past Rennala still in her prime, and other baseless speculations. It saddens me because I really like the formatting of the videos and I appreciate the research, but it can all go moot very fast. I'm not saying this to trash TA, just to let you know that, although original, you should take the info he gives with a grain of salt. He's even quoted wrongly book sources before 😢
@@BigBadWolframiodude looked at some b roll of player characters and called one of then Roderika because of her blue robe, even though she wore a RED robe.
I think (and havent seen yet) that the Lion dancer might be the first stage of a Godwym fight. The possible evidence being: 1) Large muscly warrior with hints of barbarian dress under the hide is very similar to Hoarah Loux (HL). Bare feet etc. 2) Lion hide used similar to how Serosh drapes HL. As if crudely mimicking his father. 3) Dark skin and crucible horns similar to his direct siblings Morgot and Mohg. 4) First full shot shows that in the back of the figure there is a leg that is distant and smaller that his other leg. The covering and these spread limbs might be similar to Godrick and Grafted Scions. The former supposed to be a decendant of the olden order and likely Godwyn. His wild twisted flailing also seems similar to those aforementioned fights. 5) Dark skin, grey blue eyes, and Deathblight breath as a power of him being the Prince of Death. I will say the color of the breath attack is more the black-silver of death soceries than the black-gold of Deathblight. Although those elements seem similar as the Prince of Death Staff is found right outside of Fia/Lichdragon Fortissax/Godwyn's arena. Also noted that his DLC arena seems to be in the death-swamp you're seen running through in the trailer. 6) The Lightning attack is from the Dragon Cult Incantations. Which came to be when the Ancient dragons, Fortissax, taught Godwyn when he defeated them. He is the only Demigod to use Lightnight. I think that the fight stages and his themes will show the progression from trying to replicate his former image of his golden lineage. Then to the transitional state of him changing from the golden boy to the prince of death via the Crucible imagery. The crucible being representative of chaos, transition, and change. The Crucible elements coming from his father's lineage. The similarities to grafting being representative of how much of an amalgamation of influences Godwyn has become. Lastly his final form being that of the deformed darkened Deathblight prince. I expect that first stage will play like HL and Godrick' fight then the second stage there will be death lightning like Lichdragron Fortissax's fight. Let me know your thoughts, if I missed something that argues for or against this theory. Thanks for your time!
I think the events which are reflected in the Realm of Shadow via the DLC are much older than you would suspect. In fact, I would very much place Messmer as being a key part of Marika's ascension, and the Age of Plenty to follow. In particular, I'd say he was the one who *built* Volcano Manor, and his disappearance and scrubbing from history long before Rykard was even born was why that particular demigod seems to have had to engage in quite a bit of archaeology and reconstruction himself in order to re-acquire the magic that his long-departed half-brother produced.
@@Pillowcasethegreat but Messmer was banished here, since he was probably the son of Marika and Radagon he would have to have committed a very serious crime to be punished like this
@@PillowcasethegreatLook at it this way, it is set in the present, but it's past is connected to the lands between as it used to be part of it. So we can absolutely deduce past events with this DLC.
@@Pillowcasethegreatseems more and more likely that messmer committed the cardinal sin against the erdtree, likely burning it, and was banished to the shadow dimension and has been removed from history.
It seems obvious to me that the strangler fig is sttangling the erdtree much like a snake strangles a mouse, thus mesners connection to snakes. Im very curious if the dragons of this world were maligned as treacherous snakes despite their connection to the crucible knights that defend the tree.
I believe Messmer is Radagon's and Marika's third child. I think he may also be cursed in a way, perhaps as some kind of vessel for the formless mother. Messmer might have played a role during the war against the fire giants, considering the impaler corpses and the fact that Messmer's title is "the impaler". And perhaps after the war Messmer burnt the Erdtree the first time. That'd explain the ash in Leyndell. I guess that'd get you banished, even as demigod or maybe even as a hushed empyrean.
People are getting hung up on Time in a FromSoft DLC lol. He mentions in the same interview that we'll be seeing relics of the Land's history that existed prior to Marika's arrival, so we are definitely getting to experience a LOT of the "past" in this DLC, regardless of our player character's "present" as they/we explore the Land Of Shadow and follow in the footsteps of Miquella. Much Love TA! Long time and permanent fan! Can Not wait to play this, and for your videos covering it!! Your unique eye brings so much to FromSoft's worlds for me (and I'm sure many others). Keep it up friends! Wild speculations, history lessons, and all :)
The winged serpent seems super connected to Messmer. The winged serpent statues are in Volcano Manor, but we never see an actual winged serpent. Even the god devouring serpent is wingless. Rykard's title is Praetor, and in Rome there were always two praetors as a part of the government and the military. What if Messmer was the original chosen of the pagan winged serpent deity. Messmer led the forces of Gelmir first into the Lands of Shadow with Marika, but then ran against the Erdtree. His punishment was to be locked within the Land of Shadows. Rykard was given Gelmir later where he discovered and became obsessed with the Winged Serpent, eventually finding what he believed to be the offspring of this winged serpent, but the God-Devouring Serpent was a weaker species of great serpent that was able to thrive in the absence of the winged serpent. Praetor is the title Rykard took as an honorific, depicting himself as the "second" leader of this faction.
Damn, you really should've let this video cook for longer. Even casual lore enthusiasts know that the DLC doesn't take place in the past. Should've done your research and read the interviews with Miyazaki more carefully. He literally told us that this is not the past. The Lands of Shadow is merely hidden, so there's history there, but it's happening at the same time as the rest of the game. I love your different take on analysing lore in Elden Ring, but I've started to realise that quite a few of your assertions only stand when not fully scrutinised, such as the supposed "Greattree" relief being a different tree when really it's just another version of the Erdtree. The original Japanese script of the game makes that more apparent. Also, just look at the Erdtree Surcoat. Additionally, the lion boss in the trailer is much more obviously invoking imagery of Chinese Dancing Lions. You can even see the multiple sets of human feet under it. Not everything in this game made by a whole bunch of people from an Asian culture is going to be only inspired by western mythology. I think your analysis of ER is somewhat skewed by you cultural and personal biases, which is understandable as we all look at things through such lenses. I just expect a bit more thorough research from you at this point.
I agree with you that cultural bias is ubiquitous, and that games media is saturated with purely Weatern perspectives. I would like to see TA explore more Eastern themes in future videos, as there is still plenty to explore there. However, TA did state at the beginning of the video and at the end of it that they had not yet interacted with any of the promotional materials beyond the trailer and this was purely speculation based on initial impressions. While the nature of the video seemed perfectly clear to me, I think that TA made the right decision to change the title and thumbnail of the video to help manage viewer expectations. I like that TA listens to their community and understands that, ultimately, all lore videos are explorations of theory based on a shaky set of assumptions. The fun is in listening to people make connections and tell the story from a new perspective.
It's been a while so I can't remember where, but I remember hearing a theory that the Erdtree is a parasite that took over a tree that used to be there. Perhaps what we're seeing isn't another tree coiling around the Erdtree, but instead the Erdtree coiling around the previous tree
Considering GRR Martin didn't know what parts of his work ended up actually *being* in Elden Ring, and didn't know how it was addapted. I think the idea, that we know for sure that he wrote about the shattering, is built on pretty shaky ground. It seems more likely to me that Martin wrote a comprehensive backstory, pieces of which FromSoft used as they pleaced, stringing together their own *different* timeline, *all parts of which* built from a combination of Martin's original work and FromSoft's own stories. This is the way Miazaki describes the process in *all* his interviews talking about it. The *only* reason people think Martin just wrote the shattering war is because he vaguely said that the parts he wrote happened some thousands of years before the game. *George doesn't know what happens in the game* and many parts of the timeline have been *changed* during development, just look at how different Miquella's story is ending up being compared to the cut content in the files, from just a few versions before launch. In my opinion, people need to stop taking the idea that George wrote the Shattering War and nothing else, and the idea that *whatever* he wrote wasn't changed *a lot* between writing and game launch, as gospel.
I wonder if maybe the reason for architectural similarities is that the Shadow Realm is a parallel universe that was created the moment the Erd Tree blossomed from the Crucible. So all preexisting architecture was copied over, but anything built since then isn't there (basically, like the Upside Down in Stranger Things S4). Which would be cool because it would effectively be an architectural time capsule for the pre-Erd Tree Lands Between, and would explain no Hailig Tree/scarlet otted Caelid.
I got a theory about Messmer and since I feel like it was inspired by the things I learned from your channel I feel this is the best place to put it. Behind Messmer is a statue of Marika holding an infant. A statue that looks a lot like the statues of Mary holding a baby Jesus. There has been wide speculation on who Messmer's father is and who his siblings could be. Most believing him to a sibling to Malenia and Miquella, or even be an alter of Miquella, due to his red hair. This must mean he's be a child of Radagon right? This is where the statue comes into play. Messmer is Marika's first born, from after her becoming a God, and he was born without a father. He grew up helping his mother conquer the lands between. Before snakes were regarded as traitors. And he was good. Too good. He believed in his mothers cause of bringing everyone under the Elden Ring. However something happened. Maybe he burnt down the original Erdtree, thus making the gold glow we see today necessary, or he tried to take her place as the chosen Elden Lord. So, Marika banished him, and spent a bunch of time scrubbing him from history, painting his iconography as symbols of treason, and even going as far to make the red haired alter Radagon. I believe its possible that some of Radagon's feats aren't his own and they actually belong to Messmer. And when people would talk of Messmer's accomplishments they would be corrected and be told that it was actually a man named Radagon who had done it. The unusual red hair they both share would have been enough to gaslight people into believing that it was never a man named Messmer but rather Radagon. Effectively erasing Messmer from history. Of course this is all just theories and I could be way off base. But that is the fun of all of this. To put theories into the world and find out how close you were to the truth.
1. Not Renala, Miyazaki confirmed that this is set in present time and not in the past. 2. The roar incantation isn't a lion but a bear. (Also, I think it was pointed out in a Miyazaki interview that one of the inspirations of the lion boss are the chinese dancing lions, you can clearly see there are 2 or more people propping the lion's head in the trailer, or at least there's 2 set of feet.) 3. Just re-itering since it is pointed again in #6 1/2, the events of the DLC are after you become Elden Lord or at least in the present time, there is no past/future, but rather this is a different realm, the Land of Shadows, again as per Miyazaki in an interview. Also this means that even if the land and sturcture is similar to the base game, this doesn't mean that it is a 1:1 copy of it. Other than that, most of the points you made are interesting, great video! I hope my points above will be of help on you upcoming video, you can also check Ratatoskr, since he discussed all of Miyazaki's interviews regarding the DLC. Cheers!
I was wondering why all the statues of marika had her arms up in a crucifixion pose. yes, that's how we find her inside the Erdtree, but that's her being punished. the statures (presumably) show her in her glory. but, if you switch your perspective, and imagine that instead of looking at her side on, you are looking DOWN at her - as implied by the swirl of her dress around her. in that case, her arms are outstretched to her sides- just like Radagon in his statues. just another hint at their connection.
Messmer's snakes and spear are reminiscent of the Caduceus, a symbol for Mercury. Together with his red color, he seems to represent the Rubedo stage of the alchemical magnum opus. Maybe we'll see him somehow "merge" with Miquella into a golden Ultima Materia?
Serpents-Snakes symbolise treachery and manipulation most of the time, if not all (Story of Adam and Eve) Messmer might be a excellent manipulator-tactician, Miquella is on the same boat too. I think Miquella and Messmer are 2 seperate people, who made some sort of deal in order to achieve something. Maybe Messmer became Miquella and wanted Mogh to kidnap him in order to grant him the powers of Formless mother-complete powers? He may even team up with the rest Outer Gods at some point. Malenia doesnt ask you where her brother is because she knows where he is, she knows about the Shadowlands, she knows about Messmer, she knows everything. In order to go to the dlc, you need to kill Mogh and Radahn. The reason for Malenia to defeat Radahn, was to give open access to the Shadowlands, in order to find her brother. But still, Mogh remains. Messmer and Miquella had orchestrated their plan long time ago. Maybe Miquella fooled Radahn by giving him access to the Shadowlands in order to meet Messmer, and Miquella returned... but it was Messmer in Miquellas form (St. Trina???) Mogh was jailed during those times and knew nothing + he was practicing his arts. He might also knew that Miquella = Messmer but never cared because... Mogh, and because Messmer was offspring of Marika and Radagon, so he worked with what he had and called it a day. Malenia decide to find her brother because she was running out of time. The Shattering happened, Maybe Messmer manipulated Radagon-Marika as Miquella and the Shattering occured. Miquella knew that this would happen but decided to take the risk and keep his deal because his plan was far greater than Messmers. Miquella wants the age of the Crucible back in order to achieve world peace... But peace was never the option for most of his family. Ranni might wanted to help Miquella because she thought that peace would be achieved only if the influence of Greater Will-Outer Gods was renoved from the Lands Between, and thus agreed to kill Radahn. Update: I think Marika and The Gloam Eyed Queen are sisters-twins. The old man and the pregnant woman are their parents. The woman became pregnant by the power of the Divine Hand and the old man became her husband-observator. His woman gave birth, years passsed since, and the sisters-twins started growing stronger, to the point The Divine Hand decided to start war. The Divine Hand splitted, alongside with the sisters-twins, one parent took seperate side with one of their kids (mother alongside Marika and father alongside Gloam Eyed Queen, possibly because mother=life=Marika and father=death=Gloam Eyed Queen) Marika won and the opposed side got punished.
It has been confirmed that by Miyazaki that Shadow Lands are not the past or a dream. It is a land that was sealed away. The baldachin (veil) in the sky suspended from the Shadow Tree (that whole thing is one tree that is its own entity) is meant to represent the seal on that land. The store page states Miquella shed his body, his grace, and power to get there (he pretty much Ranni'd himself it seems). So sleep/dream seems to have just been a means to pierce the veil. The Shadow Lands is the first place Marika emerged as a God. It appears to have once been the land devoted to the Crucible based on all the Omen and fused creatures we see. We have for sometime assumed there was a smooth transition from Crucible worship to Erdtree worship and if my read on things is right, this DLC is gonna tell us "no, there was a war between the Goddess of the burgeoning Erdtree and the Crucible Faithful." We will learn about this war, we will likely indirectly learn how Marika rose to power. We will also encounter Messmer the Impaler who seems to be both a Demi-god child of Marika (her statue is in his arena but she is holding a baby instead of extending her arms to praise the sun) the "Snake" that betrayed the Erdtree, with a chance he was also a big part of the war on the Giants. Basically, the DLC takes place in our own time on an island that is seal away by magic that can only be accessed via whatever Miquella did. But the place is real, not a dream or a time amalgamation. It is the first land the Erdtree Faithful conquered. So we will get to walk around an explore where the Golden Order was actually born. But we will have to continue to do it from an archaeological stand point. The Lion boss, looks to be a Lion Dance. Imagine Chinese New Year, when you see several people in a line with a colorful sheet over them, the first person in line controls a paper mache head that opens its mouth. I hope I am not taken for culturally insensitive but this tracks with us gaining a monk-style martial arts weapon skillset. The incantation you sited was a red furred horned bear head.
I like how you mention it being a seal on the land. Could also be what Miyazaki meant when he said certain outer gods were “sealed away” in the item descriptions.
Here's my theory: The Land of Shadows is essentially a pale "reflection" of the Lands Between containing all of the things that didn't fit within Marika's Golden Order. The arrival of the Elden Ring essentially allowed Marika to split the world in two, a world with everything the Golden Order allowed and everything it rejected like the Crucible. Initially, the two were separate, but with Marika's removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, it allowed things like the Omens, the Misbegotten, etc. to begin seeping back into their rightful place and this has only accelerated since the Shattering. The Land of Shadows, however, is currently fading away, hence the veils in the sky, as it fades completely from memory with Marika's slow demise. So the Land of Shadows is basically a jumble of everything the Golden Order is not, which is why so many disparate elements clash together, almost like the Hunter's Dreams in Bloodborne. Messmer is actually Melina's twin brother because you can see that they both have the same eye closed. The two of them were basically foils for Miqella and Malenia, with Messmer and Melina destined to be the cause of the destruction of the Erdtree, Melina being the kindling and Messmer holding the flame. However, Marika, either in betrayal or by convincing him somehow, cast Messmer into the Land of Shadows to put a stop to his destiny, preserving the Erdtree and the Golden Order. And, just like the rest of his family, Messmer received a Rune from the Elden Ring, but it was a Rune which Marika cast off of it just like the Rune of Death. You remember the depiction of the Elden Ring in Farum Azula? Those root-like lines on the bottom look a lot like the shadows that seem to coil around Messmer's flame, I bet those root-like lines are his Rune and it is the Rune of Shadows, mirroring the Rune Melina might have had if she was indeed the original bearer of the Rune of Death. Together with Miqella and Malenia, they represent the cycle for the world as it normally was before it was altered by the Elden Ring. Abundance. Decay. Death. Shadows.
there is a baldachin crest which is assigned to St. Trina. Therefore, the all-covering may indicate a dream. That was also my first association with the trailer. The Deathbed Dream of Godwyn even depicts that same strange sky- so is that all just the deathbed dream of a demigod with powers over dreams?
After stumbling on this video a couple days ago just to see trailer analysis I can now say I’ve found one of the coolest lore channels I’ve ever seen lol
Miyazaki clarified in a japanese interview that the DLC does not take place in the future or past, it is happening at the same time as the main game. So it is not happening in the shattering, just a hidden world which we will find out why is hidden when we find out why Miquella is there. When Miyazaki talked about GRRM's story he was talking about how this DLC is also based on what he wrote originally all those years ago, it just didn't fit within the initial game of Elden Ring. I don't think we're supposed to believe any of this is about the past since the interviewer suggested that when Miyazaki said that we would learn more about Marikas origins and Miyazaki speicifcally said that we would learn about it the same way we learn about the history of the Lands Between, we would read about past events, we would not see it or experience it. That means that it is definately not Rennala sitting in that castle, and that city with the Lion is not Leyndell. According to the interviews it is based on a culture which was there before Marika became a god. Thats what Miyazaki said about the false lion omen boss. It is probably not even a real lion pelt for Miyakazi directly compared it to the chinese lion dance if I'm not mistaken. The men inside the costume are from that earlier culture performing a dance. So I don't think it has anything to do with the wars in the Lands Between. I therefore don't subscribe to the idea that the DLC depicts the past. Especially since the war when Messmer supposedly set flame to the Shadow world has alredy happend, it's considered a past war.
I’ve been watching Elden ring and dark souls videos for over a decade and this channel came out of the wild gold yonder a year ago and is genuinely my favorite channel on this entire series. It’s just so good.
1. Can't see that the "lion" doesn’t have a red mane, its obviously cloth. 2. Mistake the bear for a lion. 3. Somehow missed the fact that the one of the interviews explicitly told us that this doesn’t takes place in the past (or a dream). And this is why you should never put too much stock in TA's analyses. I do think there is a link with the serpents though, they are all over Messmer after all. And him being there seems to imply that he was banished by Marika.
My theory is that the Shadow Lands is an area sealed off by Marika to contain Messmer, banished to the "shadows of the Erdtree". Messmer probably sought to take the throne of Elden Lord by force as it seems he laments being "bereft of light", ineligible of Lordship by Grace, so he finds the power through the anathemic Serpents and creates his new order, a new Tree which is visibly choking the larger Erdtree, in a similar symbolism of the Serpent of Eden. Reference to Gnostic traditions of Sethian snake worship, who upon making Adam and Eve indulge in the forbidden fruit broke the illusions of the Demiurge.
Fun Archimedes screw fact I didn't think I'd be telling today: I can't remember how he discovered it, but an Australian bloke found that in that mechanism. It doesn't have to be the screw itself that drives the grains or particulate upwards, you can spin the cylinder that surrounds the screw. The end result is the same but you save energy as the cylinder is lighter than the screw itself while also saving on the wear and tear of turning a giant screw.
at 8:22 you can see some legs standing atop of another figure, i think its like the Chinese dancing lion/dragon puppets, multiple people inside it, makes sense the way each section is moving unnaturally independent of its body
You know, the thing with the galleon blew my mind. That's the good-old fashioned Tarnished Archeology that I love your work for. What an eye for detail. Really noice. And for that, I can ignore the bear-lion. Because hey, it's not called Tarnished Zoology.
Where are you getting some of this from? Pre-nuked Caelid? That one NPC being a younger Rennala? The DLC taking place in the past? That obvious bear incantation being a lion? I need you to clean it up 💀
So then we know Messmer is NOT going to die since the first time a Demi-God was ever killed, was when Ranni kill Godwyn when she stole a piece of the Rune Of Death. Right? If this DLC is really a look into the past, it would be pretty badass if the cliffhanger at the end shows a future Messmer make a return, now that the tree is smoked again. That is, if Ranni (or whoever tells us about Godwyns death i cant remember) was being truthful. I just beat the game and really started diving into the lore to avoid spoilers so idk, i could be way off lmao. Just a thought. Edit: Dammit, just read the pinned comment LMAOOO
I'd like to point out that the lion may be not only an imagery of the Herculean mythos, but also far Asian(Thailand, perhaps different panasian countries, China). What I'm trying to say here, is that many of these cultures have festivals and celebrations that involve dragon costumes, that many people at the same time are supposed to wear, which are REALLY similar to what we can see in this trailer. Googling for a bit is enough to see the similarities. Also, Miyazaki said in the recent interview that players must "keep in mind that this lion dance is from a different culture". Could that be that he meant they took inspiration from Asian cultures?
Sometimes in the scene with the Lion warrior, you can maybe see that it's actually more than one being - one possibly standing on the other's back, with the other one's hands just in resting position pointing forward.
We got some things wrong…
Fellow tarnished archaeologists,
Thank you all for watching and engaging with our DLC trailer video. The response has been amazing. As many of you have pointed out, we got a few things wrong: most importantly, while the DLC will tell us much more about Marika’s past, per Miyazaki it does not take place in the past, or perhaps even the pseudo-past like Bloodborne’s DLC as we suggested.
But that’s what we get for releasing our unadulterated first impressions without reading all the interviews, watching other UA-camrs, reading Reddit, etc. How this Shadow Realm relates to the story and history of the main game is indeed quite mysterious, because we **can** see features of the Lands Between in this trailer. So that will be a topic for future videos.
In the future we probably won’t release similar brainstorming videos. Our skills are better suited for the long-form analysis and deep dives, rather than initial reactions. Still, though, it was really fun for once to be involved in the initial wave of crazy speculation! This is something we’ve never done before and it was fun to be swept up in the excitement like everyone else. So thank you all for engaging and participating.
Most importantly, all of your comments (both corrective and creative) and theories have given us much to think about. Of course we’ll have to wait until the DLC is actually released to begin doing what we do best, which is, ya know, looking at potsherds and broken statues, but in the meantime we hope to release a more thoughtful video on the nature of the Shadow Tree. This is indeed one of the core mysteries of the trailer, and as we teased in the video, there is much in the main game to learn about this Shadow Tree, the Erdtree, and the strangler. So if that’s something you’re interested in, stay tuned for more Tarnished Horticultural analysis of the Shadow Tree!
TA
Don't worry, it's ok to make mistakes, especially when being swept up with all the new possibilities and details.
I personally appreciate your honesty and the "owning up to it" part, which shows great integrity.
This doesn't take anything away from your amazing previous work though.
Have a great day :)
@@GeodesicBruh There were no mistakes. It was an off the cuff review. The splash nail literally says unhinged, similar to a lot of the comments that followed.
It was very interesting nonetheless
Trust me you got less wrong than anybody else did
You did identify a few things that nobody else pointed out, I wish people would focus on that, like the arches on the roads and the potential for this being a dreamworld like in BB (I think it's extremely possible that's how we experience the past without needing to time travel). I hope you revisit the trailer to do another analysis in the near future because there were some excellent observations there that you should follow up on imho.
Somewhere in the lands between, Gideon Ofnir is hunched over a lap top trying to figure out what the fuck that trailer meant.
😂☝️👏
😂😂😂
"The DLC contains the Albinauric woman"
With all the weird shit going on there we might as well toss him over the shoulder and drag Gideon on a field trip to the shadow lands so he doesn't demand a report every 5 seconds.
OOOOOOOH~~~
Takes a deep breath*
THE ALL KNOWING!
The “lion roar” incantation isn’t what the lion skin used to look like, that’s clearly a bear.
Yeah and the boss looks like two misbegotten on each other's shoulders, you can see the feet fully turned around while the breath attack goes off
Yeah I think their likely fleshing out the connection between the draconic rune bears and dragons with a roar incantation
lion also has two rows of teeth
When shooting the lightining attack the lion's nouth is completly open, as the hand is not holding it anymore. So there are only two hands in the front and there ir another guy below him
I'm confused as to why apparently so few people seem to see a rune bear. It's a rune bear with horn growths. I mean, it's right there? It even sounds like a rune bear. Which already follows from what can be seen for rune bears of the Lands Between. Zullie, who dug out the details, speculated a very likely draconic tie, but maybe it's also omen or misbegotten-related, considering the strong red tinge.
We might be getting dragon hearts from draconic rune bears, who are even larger and stronger and prowl the Land of Shadow. That's pretty exciting.
Not sure if anyone will read this.
I recently fought Mohg in preparation for the DLC and noticed something interesting in his opening cutscene.
1. Mohg appears from the blood from Miquella’s hand (pretty obvious) but it dawned on me that Mohg was staying/living “inside” Miquella and in his dream.
This is backed up when Mohg says the line “Dearest Miquella. You must abide alone a while.” And then he turns to fight us.
I think Mohg was living in the DLC realm and might have influenced the realm there. We might see some traces of his influence- and possibly the influence on Messmer himself
Holy shit 🤯
I also thought of something like that. Maybe Messmer is in the cocoon and he's the alter ego of Miquela in secret. Messmer either fought Marika and stabbed her abdomen or to make sure she was dead or imprisoned and fell into a slumber in the cocoon but was stolen by Mohg and fed the blood so he could enter the dream and find Miquela. Something like that
Holy shit how have I not seen anyone else piece that together yet? I've always wondered why he comes out of Miquella's blood like that.
Mohg uses bloodflame sorcery and it looks like so does Messmer.
@@theghosty99 thanks!
And great point about the Blood Flame sorcery and the flames that Messmer uses.
The way I understood it is Mohg is mixing blood with his flame attacks that are influenced by The Formless Mother? Maybe Messmer isn’t under the same influence of The Formless Mother, so he has the regular flames like the Redmanes, Flame Giants and Mt. Gilmer(?)
@@Fmakegeo6 just had another thought..
We might have a connection/explanation to the butterflies as well.
1. Nascent butterflies = Miquella
2. Aeonian butterflies = Malenia
3. Shouldering butterflies = Messmer
Especially since Miyazaki-san confirmed that the story in the DLC is based on GRRM world building and nothing “new” was created for the lore
Miyazaki confirmed in an interview with Famitsu, that the DLC does not occur in the past. I think he also said the DLC does not take place in the Lands Between. He called the tree in the trailer picture the Shadow Tree, and said that it was a symbol for the Shadow Lands, much like the Erdtree is a symbol for the Lands Between.
The shadow lands will be a dream right?
@@lapple5574 It is Queen Marika's homeland.
knowing from and miyazaki, he will portray the shadow lands in an ambiguous way, leading is to think about whether or not its the shadow lands that are the real lands between rather than the lands between we play in in the base game.@@lapple5574
@@lapple5574as far as I know that is just a theory but I don't think so. Miazaki I believe said that the shadow lands used to be connected to the lands between but was somehow banished. It's hard to remember exactly what is theory and what is fact but I believe he stated that in an interview. Another theory is that the reason the lands between is called that is because it is the lands between the shadow lands and the lands of the light or something to that effect.
It was stated pretty clearly, so I guess TA just missed it and then went straight into "early Shattering" scenarios.
As a few people have pointed out, Miyazaki specifically stated in an interview that this is NOT set in the past, that is it the present day but a place that was physically displaced from reality. Makes me think that perhaps the huge gap in the middle of the map is not in fact a crater but this section of land.
Glad you're doing a full analysis video down the line, given most of these analyses probably aren't correct if it's not just the lands between in the past.
Holy crap, Miyazaki said the map was a bit bigger than Limgrave. This fits the picture. It also suggests there may have been more than one erdtree at once which appears to fit with all the dead tree stumps in deeproot.
I think dLcs areas are huuuge compared to that crater
I look at it as a mirror world, a literal shadow underneath the erdtree that exists at the same time
I think him saying this isn't the Lands between is a technically truthful misdirect. The geography matches too well. The fields of caelid with Dragonbarrow in the distance, what looks to be Stormveil cliff, another possible look-alike with the Shaded Castle, Shadow-Leyndell and several other locations that are too close to existing places to be a coincidence.
@@Joust149 Just admit it. Tarnished Archeologist got this whole thing wrong. This also puts into doubt all his previous speculative analysis given how far off the mark he is on this. The DLC takes place in the present day in a different land, and you heard it straight from the creator himself.
The name Messmer immediately makes me think of Franz Mesmer, an 18th century German physician who experimented with magnets and believed in a force between animate and inanimate objects called "animal magnetism". His name is where we get the term "mesmerize", ie to hypnotize or enthrall someone.
Nice!
Oh I like this fact.
Oh I like this.
Especially with his connection to snakes and possibly dragons the idea of snake charming comes to mind.
Hypnosis is also closely related with sleep... St. Trina's domain.
Someone pointed out the headdress of the person in Carian hall is the same as on the carian inverted statue. Since it's set in the present time, It isn't Rennala.
Maybe it's another Carian royal? For me, the lore has always implied that the Carian family has many members besides Rennala and her children, it is said that there were many Carian knights who served several Carian princesses, as Rennala only had Ranni and no other daughters, there would have to be other branches of the family
Not that it looked anything like her to begin with.
Plus, I don’t even think that’s a woman in the seat. The character’s facial features definitely look more masculine
The headdress doesn't look the same as the Carian statue either.
right i think he/she looks not like Rennala herself, and more like a regent type with his/her demaneur. i always asked myself why its told like there were many othersCarians before Rennala but we find only her. @@davisiotta489
I think the animal doing that roar incantation is a bear and not a lion.
Vaati made a semi joking short about how the bears are draconic.
@@Nemo12417 it's not a joke. Rune Bears dropped dragon hearts in the network test, and they still have draconic eyes.
Humans evolved from beasts which evolved from dragons.
look closely now - you can see it is probably a human being (it's legs) using some draconic runebear roar incantation. It looks exactly like dragon incantation
@@GeneralTaco155555a but they dont drop them in the actual game. So either it was a mistake or it was a concession they made for the playtest to let people try different dragon incantations.
@@Nemo12417i cant begin to tell you how sick i am of seeing Vaati quoted as if he's some sort of authority on the subject, joking or not.
Notes that you'll surely find repeatedly in the comments:
There are 2 interview from Miyakazi detailing somethings in the DLC.
1- The DLC happens in the Present, but your point of "the DLC details things of the past" still stands because this land was put in shadows in the past and everyone "forgot" about it.
2- The Lion was spoiled by miyazaki himself: It's a Dancer from a culture that was erased with the coming of the Erdtree.
3- He also repeats that this Shadow Lands contain information of the time before the Erdtree.
4- This is my speculation but it's from the interviews: There are Great Kanatas and Colossal Katanas among the new Weapon types, this leads me to believe that "The Land of Reeds" with their Civil Wars Problably is not outside the lands between but it was "shadowed" by Marika. We do have Moon and Meteorite Katanas in the game.
I think you're on the money with that "shadowlands are eastern/asian" theory. It probably corresponds to the missing chunk of the map to the east, which used to connect Caelid to the Mountaintops, and everything between.
The "lion dancer" is also clearly inspired by Chinese culture.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic it makes sense until get to Godfrey. Godfrey is supposed to be our link to that time before the Erdtree Religion and nothing from his time is eastern.
I assume that, whatever easter civilization there was, was gobbled up alongside this chunk of land that is In Shadows.
I say this because the Mountain Top's Map says that the highest peak in the lands between is to the South of the Forge. But in game "south of the Forge" is that Straight line crossing the giant Chasm. ITS EMPTY.
This Veil is over half of the continent. So there should've been "bystanders" that were gobbled up with no involvement with the Golden Order
@@ThiagoCRocha-fh6lg The Lands of Shadow are a separate land from the Lands Between and have a different culture.
@@thechairman1306 the game is not out yet and by the interviews the shadows lands were a part of the lands between. They arent now so there should be differences in culture. But the interview with Miyazaki stated that the cultures of the Land of Shadows are the Culture before the Erdtree worship of the Lands Between.
@@ThiagoCRocha-fh6lg That's not what he said. What he said is that it was a separate land that could be accessed from the Lands Between, but no longer can because Marika has hidden it,
Hey Tarnished. I have a theory I haven't heard anyone talk about yet and I'd be curious on some second opinions. I think the Land of Shadows is the crucible of the Erdtree and there's some evidence to support it.
First, the overview shot of the shadow tree is quite literally a crucible. I find that the most compelling reason and hard to overlook. It's dumping the liquid similar to a crucible.
It's also stated that the Land of Shadows is the first place Marika stepped into the Lands Between. Based on the timeline videos, we know that to be the crucible itself. An interview with Miyazaki said it's where Marika became a god and the Golden tree was born.
There's also the HEAVY theme with the omen horns. We already know from the large amount of item descriptions that things like horns, tails, wings, etc were common during the crucible era. Most of the creatures in the trailer share these features. Messmer included. The snakes attached to him have wings growing out of them and he has draconic/snake eyes.
I think this land exists parallel to the lands between. The souls offered by the Erdtree burial are used to fuel the crucible to create life.
So with the way that grafting of scions works with trees, it makes the most sense that the Erdtree would have been born somewhere else and then grafted to the Crucible, where it eventually won out over the other scions and took over the deeproots. So the Crucible would have been on top of the trunk, where we can see one tree end and a new tree begin above the throne area in Leyndell, where you fight Morgott and Godfrey.
This. Totally this. yes. Totally rad. and I love the idea that the crucible is like a living furnace for the erd tree... damn, I don't even want to argue with that, I accept this speculation! But, while the shadow land is parallel, I think it's a living suspended past event, like Farum Azula, or even Night City in a way. Banished but containing it's past context. Not time travelling perseee, a past time still present... ahem. I think that's why we even see crucible knights at all in the Lands Between, something I always felt odd about considering how long ago their group existed. They crossed over from this suspended shadow land time and were like...wtf did we DO!!
seems all right. It's probably a reminiscent of the crucible age when Marika and the other Numen first settled in the lands Between. Like the ships.
But what if the pillars of the ancient civ tells the story reversed, that the landing of the ships is the end their history?
Anything in these shadow Lands shouts Crucible Creatures Characteristics you mentioned, and it feels like a forceful overridden World by Marika with all the taboos of the past through.
The things related to messmer look all very heretic, like his crest! It depicts a flame like frenzied flame, a cursed looking one, a flame like crown at the buttom.
It's hard to tell from the trailer what messmer's connections are. But the flames could also be a mixture of Rykard's flames from House Vulcan and the blood flames of Mohg. Or the flame of the Outer God of the Giants.
But Messmer's Crest resembles the frenzied flame
Something I have not seen anywhere is how Messmer's visual design appears heavily inspired by Hermes/Mercury. The staff he holds in his left hand and the twin winged snakes seem like a twisted or evil version of the Caduceus. His sandals and winged helmet also appears to be deliberate visual cues to remind us of popular depictions of that deity.
Perhaps they have decided to double-down on the trickster part of Hermes' portfolio, or meld his design and story with other famous trickster deities. His fiery red hair and association with the the mountaintop of the giants (where we find likely past victims that have been impaled by his iconic spears) indicate some Loki influence in his design and story as well.
I am not as well read as the archaeologists here about the myths of Hermes and Loki. Perhaps there is some clue in the myths of these figures that might tell us more about Messmer. Or perhaps Miyazaki-san is simply using historic visual cues to let us know Messmer is a trickster and a cad.
Ah yes, another fellow folkloric pantheist 👀
Its also just yet another Berserk character he stole 😭 literally called the dragon flame prince or smthn
This is interesting I also though of a slightly different deity ,Asclepius, given Marika's obsession with Ruling over death and her fear of the gods dying coupled with the fact the snake that surrounds Messmer actually has a snakes head on both ends. instantly made me remember how Asclepius was slain by zeus out of his fear of making men immortal.
If you take a look at the gladiator designs and the collectors edition of his helmet you can see his head piece is a direct inspiration for it. Then as you look at the both sets you can see the resemblencenm, likely that messmer was defeated once and his likeness was used for the the gladiators.
I'd look more to Thoth than Loki, considering Thoth and Hermes are synonymous practically.
The lion also seems to draw inspiration from the lion dance. I haven't seen anyone mention that if you look closely, it's two people within the lion -- one standing on another's shoulders. Also, the inner set of teeth on the lion are exactly similar to the teeth on the costumes worn in a lion dance.
Miyazaki actually calls it the lion dance boss in his interview too.
it's been confirmed in interviews by Miyazaki that it's the lion dance, not the same mythology at all, and that that was an ancient culture erased in the normal world
I have heard everyone mention that from the very first time they saw it. This is pretty much what everyone who actually looks at the trailer would think of.
I mean the way it moves it’s head is a clear lunar parade style dance
@@trapadvisor Where do we learn that grafting of body parts was more common pre-Golden Order?
The lion is clearly inspired by the dancing lion/dragons from chinese new year festivals (you can see multiple pairs of arms and legs under the shawl, manipulating the head and casting the lightning miracles, twisting and corkscrewing. Its an incredibly inspired design and must've been hell to animate but well worth it.
The roar incantation is very obviously a bear, you can tell from its longer snout, longer than any feline's and broad head. Its like a rune bear but even more draconic.
There are actually two people underneath the garb of the lion-puppet; one stands on the back of the other.
Why would he notice that when he didn’t even pay attention to the trailer or any of the news?
First few minutes in and everything he says is demonstrably wrong (right up until he talks about the strangler dog, which is only arguably wrong. I see one tree with two branches… the glow of the supposed fig is also in the vertical trunk of the supposed victim)
You can’t look at that geography, those buildings, and say “this is the lands between in the past. Oh this here is Caelid before the bloom”
and that’s without knowing the very very public announcements about it being the present in a new land, The Land of Shadow.
During the Shattering? What?
That’s not what even what the thing about GRRM said! It was just saying it was still based on his lore. 🤦
@@joearnold6881 Your asessment is indredibly low-resolution.
1. I mean how does that NOT look like two trees? You can even see the parasitic brances of one tree strangling another...
2. The architectural details match incredibly well with those of the eternal cities, if you're not familiar i suggest you look at them in-game yourself.
3. We know 100% that the Eternal Cities were all above ground at some point in the past, including the lower half of Leyndell that today is just an abyss, the Nameless Eternal City IS the missing part of Leyndell.
4. Just because the Land of Shadows is showing us things of the past doesn't mean it's IN the past, the Veil itself probably was used by Marika to "hide the past" in the present.
Otherwise i'd be curious to see your counterarguments and not just "this is dumb, this guy is wrong".
Why not another grafted monster?
It may actually be 3 people as when you first see it has a robe lump in the rear too making it longer while its still tall with the 2 beings standing on-top making the height and 1 more making the length... I think its like a Chinese Dragon with multiple people making the boss in function look bigger
@@sidewaysfcs0718it does not look like caelid or leyndell at all, both the geographically and the buildings are completely different. Why would a counter argument be needed when there isn't even a decent argument for why these places would be caelid or leyndell in the first place? On top of that, it has 1. already been specified that the dlc is a completely different area and 2. It would mean that the dlc is completely different in size to what miyazaki has already stated as leyndell and caelid are quite far from each other.
Ok wait Miyazaki said this takes place during the main game it’s not set in the past or the future. I haven’t heard anyone else say that the person around 6:30 here is Rennala, let alone a past version of her.
We know this is a shadow land mirroring the lands between so it would make SENSE to have a shadow counterpart to Rennala but I haven’t seen anything telling me that’s ACTUALLY Rennala. Can someone correct me or shed some light?
Regardless, I love your videos man. Your methodical academic approach to exploring all of this is my absolute favorite lore exploration style on UA-cam and you continuously blow my mind :)
That's probably not Rennala but another Carian royal.
Yeah, Miyazaki said in the interview this isn't the past or future clearly. He stated this is just another realm happening beside the events of the main game. No time travel.
it could be another member of the family but certainly not a queen or king since it was Rennala who placed the Carians as royalty and the DLC was already said to be set in a different land, not the future or the past@@NecroBanana
that carian seems to be the person depicted on the statue that inverts the study hall, and possibly the one on the left of the dectus medallion
This video is embarrassing frankly. Just a couple minutes in and it’s nonsense. It’s clear he didn’t look at the trailer half as closely as the rest of us
7:39 Miquella's hand mirroring the tree behind (or perhaps the tree behind mirroring Miquella's hand) is such a cool image.
George (Godwyn, Godfrey, Godrick)
R. R. (Radagon, Rykard, Radahn, Ranni)
Martin (Marika, Miquella, Malenia, Melina, Messmer)
There are no accidents
My birth:
As someone else said, Messmer seems to drive from mesmer, a word commented to mesmerism and "mesmerized." Those references to compulsion seem to align with Miquella's known ability to compel love for him in others. It also seems significant that the first time we see him, it's a shot of his unnaturally-elongated hand and arm, one very similar to the hand and arm hanging from Miquella's cocoon.
Instead of being fire magic akin to Mt. Gelmir's, could that be the Formless Mother's blood magic, the type Mogh was trying to instill in him? With the Miq/Mel line's red hair, the Mohg/Marg blood magic, and the Rykard serpent imagery, it would seem this Messmer has aspects of all Marika's brood.
Yes thank you for mentioning the elongated proportions of both Miquella and Messmer - nobody seems to have noticed that and it's bugging me. We see some people with those proportions but they are typically all zombie-like inhabitants of the Lands Between, Goldmask, or the Alabaster/Obsidian Lords. None of the other demigods have those kind of slender, stretched out limbs and fingers.
Since he has all 3 maybe its because he is a parasyte like that extra tree?
The dlc is not set in the past. It's a alternative world that takes place at the same time as the main story. Also i think Messmer is the third child of Marika based on the flaming butterfly.
Also regarding Melina, they may actually be connected considering Messmer has his left eye closed, just like Melina.
Yeah, kinda kills half the lore speculation in the video when the entire premise and setting is missed. That wasn't Caelid in the beginning either (The Shadow Land is a completely separate land according to Miyazaki).
yeh i think he missed the part of the interview where micheal zaki said that the game is set in "the present time"
I interpret it as a sort of dream world where memories of the past and visions of the future are intermingled. The bedchamber veil shrouding the whole world is my inspiration for this idea, and that we're probably entering the realm of shadow by interacting with slumbering Miquella's egg.
Also I think that the strangler tree is an extension of the deathroot spreading from Godwyn's corpse
He didn't confirm that it was another world, just another place in the world. The lands between is a continent, the dlc will just take place on another land mass.
Fastest click in the west
Same! I did a double take and didn’t realize my thumb was already pressing on the video
For real, bro. I looked down at work and walked away from an active conversation.
@@TwoMoreThan4042 link them the video too
Fastest in the east 👆
Dude same lmao
If you watch the lion boss scene carefully, you can see that there are multiple people inside, stacked on top of eachother. There is also a set of hands working the artificial mask/jaw.
Absolutley - it's clearly at least two people inside of a costume reminiscent of the chinese lion dance (wǔshī) I believe, where several people operate the costume in coordination with each other - you can see some examples here.. ua-cam.com/video/8-JGrwOtv-I/v-deo.html
I remember being mesmerised by seeing a performance of this in London as a child so it is instantly recognisable!
its already said in interviews that the dlc is set in present timeline so this is not in the past or some time travel related stuff
Link?
As commented about Bloodborne, this is probably a dream type situation, where we go to a shifted version of the past, considering all the Miquella/ st Trina dream related stuff and cut content having a lot to do with dreams
@@RenegadeStriker7 my dad Miyazaki said that you teleport to the Shadow Land and that it was cut off from the physical world by means we will see when we play. I think it was the Famitsu interview.
@@ricardojanateMiyazaki said in an interview that the DLC area used to be a part of the lands between but has been separated from it by something. No time travel and I would heavily doubt that it’s a dream realm from how he’s talked about it
@@kynos6219 dreaming is probably our way of traveling to other places This is basically what happens when Melina puts us to sleep and we wake up in Farum Azula dreaming is probably just the way out of the in-between lands perhaps? since Farum azula and the shadow lands are not exactly in the lands between
As soon as I saw the trailer my first instinct was to stare at architecture and try and make connections, love your channel, and all its bountiful discoveries.
Too bad the creator decided not to look as close as the rest of us :/
No doubt!
@@joearnold6881 He was looking close at other things we had not considered.
@@Despondencymusicfor real, the comments for this vid are so negative. i loved this vid so much ❤
@@n8doggy733 That hydraulic system call out tho
I wonder if the main tree in the dlc is actually the tree of the order before Marika, and the parasite is the erdtree we know from the post-shattering base game
There are ship wrecks seen from general Radarns boss fight and there is a starting character choice with a mariner background. Miyazaki said you need to defeat Radarn as well as Mogh to start the dlc. Some lore lated to Radarn stopping the stars and the ability to enter the Shadow realm of the erdtree.
Maybe Messmer has been trapped in the shadow realm because of General Radarn's gravity magic.
There are supposedly small, direct hints of Messmer in Elden Ring already. There is a Catacomb of the Impaler and a ghost mentions Marika's "unwanted child." Could be something to look into.
The Impaler's catacombs has been confirmed to have nothing to do with Messmer and the ghost is referring to the Walking Mausoleums, soulless demigods that are "unwanted" by Marika
I'm amazed how quickly you dropped the video with all this editing
for real, and the amazing finds like the Tree vs Snake theme continuing ❤
I don’t think that Messmer was involved in the Shattering at all. In fact, I think he was killed right at the start of it, if not banished to the Realm of Shadow at an earlier point.
There was most certainly an attack against the Erdtree by forces loyal to the Great Serpent. However, the fact that this event was reenacted in the Colosseums already tells us that this conflict happened in the very early days of the Golden Order. After all, it was only after the banishment of Godfrey that the Colosseums doors were closed to the public as Radagon took the Elden Throne, which as far as I can tell took place before the Shattering War. To further support this conflict was in the ancient past, it is said that Rykard “rediscovered” Gelmir’s ancient hex magic, which puts this conflict at least prior to Radagon’s marriage to Rennala.
However, if we are operating under the assumption that Radagon was always Marika, their selfcestuous relationship could date back to even before Godfrey was Elden Lord, meaning that Malenia, Miquella, and likely Messmer are by far Marika’s oldest children.
So, the conflict against the Great Serpent, with Messmer likely rebelling against his mother, clearly happened long before the Shattering. However, given that it was in the early days of Godfrey’s reign and after Destined Death was sealed, Messmer could not be killed. He was likely banished to the fringes of the empire afterwards, most likely the Weeping Peninsula, as we can find the Impaler’s Catacombs on its northeastern cliffs. After this point, I think Marika either banished him to the Shadow realm, or, more likely, he was one of the demigods killed in the Night of Black Knives. Just a short ride away, we can find our first Wandering Mausoleum, with a ghost describing this particular one as Marika’s “unwanted child.”
I don’t think Messmer being Marika’s oldest child means that Miquella and Malenia are also Marika’s oldest, otherwise Marika would have no reason to call Radagon back from Rennala
@@christopherlyndsay8611I don’t think Radagon returned to Leyndell just to answer a booty call. I think Human Justicar made a really good video explaining what the exact political role of Elden Lord was based on the family structure of Japanese royalty. Essentially, the emperor would have two women as primary childbearers and sources of legitimate heirs, the first being the emperor’s wife, who was often (rather incestuously) from within a branch of the royal family herself, while the other woman was something called a “clan concubine”. These women came from outside of the royal family and were married as part of a political alliance between the emperor and some other influential family. Her children would be lower down the totem pole as far as becoming the emperor’s successor, but if his wife failed to birth a suitable heir, then the integrity of the royal bloodline would still be maintained. She essentially argues that this secondary role is analogous to the position of Elden Lord, while Marika’s primary consort was always Radagon/herself, again rather in/selfcestuously. Given what past Elden Lords brought to the table, it makes sense to view their relationships in a primarily political light, carried out for the mutual gain of both parties. Godfrey was the most fearsome warrior the land had ever seen, and Placidusax had an army of dragons and beastmen in his service. So essentially, the Elden Lord is just Marika’s side hoe.
Going back to Radagon abandoning Rennala, I think him becoming Elden Lord was simply to keep up appearances of a functioning Erdtree society. The general populace had no idea they were the same being, and there was some plausible deniability on the origin of their children. Messmer was likely scrubbed from the history books at this point, while Miquella remained a perpetual child, and his sister was eternally decaying
@@michaeljohnston8891 if anything Radagon returning from Rennala damaged political relations more than helped them, as Caria became an enemy once again. It also wouldn’t make sense if Miquella and Malenia just appeared out of nowhere as adults, suddenly saying they were demigods. Something else that shows that they were born later is the statue of Malenia, Miquella and Godwyn, in which Malenia is depicted as a child - showing that Godwyn is older than Malenia.
In the Famitsu interview with Miyazaki he confirms that the dlc takes place at the same time as the main game, not in the pst or future.
One interesting thing I noticed is that the woman standing next to the old man in the painting has black hair, if you zoom in, you can see that she has black hair very well hidden by the cloak and the shadow on her face so I guess that's a big no to everyone who was theorizing that this was Marika or Fia
Best guess is it's either the GEQ or someone we haven't heard about yet.
everyone like "thats a deathbed companion"! but it think her cloak is a mix of that and the Blood Nobles. Remember that Mogh did influence this Land a lot with his presence using Miquella as a door maybe?
@@antijoscha1690 I think it's more likely that Mohg was influenced by Messmer and the Shadow Lands than the reverse. Mohg learned his bloodflame sorceries from somewhere, it makes sense it would be from the guy who seems to have all the markings of every heretical magic and symbol
Old Schizo fans be like: OMG IS THAT VELKA!?!?! IS ELDEN RING THE PAINTER'S PAINTING!!?!?!
after listening to a bajillion trailer/interview analyses, I think there are a several misses here, but it's still very impressive for an unadulterated interpretation
It's incredible given that TA went in blind, can't wait to see how these ideas will evolve as they read the interviews and connect with the community.
yea, cool for what it is but he sounds too sure with majority of the vid being wrong lmao
Wow I'm here early! Looking forward to your takes on the DLC, along with all the other lore theorists.
Edited For Thoughts Following:
I found myself thinking about a few of your videos, especially the "First Burning of the Erdtree", while watching the trailer. Regarding the veil, it also calls to mind the Baldachin Blessing.
That said, I'm not sure if it's quite where stated at the start of the video in the timeline. It could be translation wonkiness, but I took the interview as the content being based on GRRM's writings in the same way everything else is. Ie: he wrote the background info, and this is drawing from stuff not previously seen.
I also don't think the woman in the trailer is Rennala. Her face doesn't line up, though the likeness does resemble the statue that flips the tower holding Ranni's corpse.
The lion boss also, personally, brings to mind Lion Dancers more than anything else in its motions. This doesn't discredit other lion pelt theories, but is worth considering. Worth pointing out though, the roar from the incantation is more Bear-Like. Possibly connected to the Rune Bears?
I also immediately thought of the radiant baldachin blessing.
Too bad the video creator decided not to look at the trailer or think at all.
Just within the first couple of minutes everything they say is wrong.
It’s not in the past.
It’s not Caelid
That’s not Roderika
This isn’t Siri g the shattering
That’s not the normal tree supposedly being choked by a creeper vine (honestly it just looks like two branches of one tree to me, the glow even goes up what would be the trunk of the victim tree, but that’s arguable). Whatever is happening to it, it’s a different tree to the erdtree, either completely or a shadow or dream version of it
At this point I'm pretty sure the land of shadows is metaphysically underneath the lands between. The original game is in the lands "between" the land of shadows and the land of the stars.
To transition between lands, you must abandon your body, which is why miquella "divested himself of his flesh" to go to the land of shadows, and why ranni is transforming everyone into pure spirits to go to the land of stars in her ending.
Since marika "first set foot" in the land of shadows, it makes sense to think she would come from there. Marika is a Numen, and we don't know where the numen come from or where did they go. Miyazaki said we would experience a new culture, so it would make sense to think that the land of shadow is filled with Numen culture.
I disagree. "First set foot" sounds like the first arrival to a new location, after departing from your homeland. I think we're going to get a culture that she arrived into, and maybe eventually decimated on her path towards creating the Golden Order of the Lands Between.
I was so captivated by that blue field I didn’t even notice the shipwreck behind it. Good eye.
TA- I absolutely love that you took a swing at this and let us into your mind looking at first impressions. You heavily caveated that, too. Thanks for the insights on your working process and first thoughts, and please don’t shy away from sharing more rough drafts just because of strangely critical nerds. I love your voice and analyses so much.
everything makes more sense if melina is merika's sister + also the gloam eyed queen ... their names are even more similar in japanese btw .... so it would then follow that the messmer is the third sibling of malenia and miquella and thus connected to smoldering butterflies
I think this video could use a rewrite, as it is to my understanding built upon a false premise, that the DLC would be in the past, which it is not according to Miyazaki's other interview.
He says its on different physical plain from the lands between, but within the same universe and neither past nor future.
So another piece of land I assume, meaning new parts and fills for the "current" story we play as the tarnished.
So yeah...
whoopsies
Not gonna lie, this was the most unhinged speculation you have done so far. I have no clue where you gather that the DLC scene is the Land between from the past when it is literally stated in interviews already out that the DLC plays in the present in a Land completely seperate, where Marika first arrived. Pretty much everything you say is for some reason based on the false premise that this is the past.
Yep. Waaaay off on a lot of the theories it seems. But I love that he’s giving us his initial thoughts. We won’t know what’s really happening until release so it’s all fun and games til then!
When I first saw the trailer I thought that messmer was miquella's formless mother corrupted form and that we were going inside of miquella dreamland to free him of mohg's machinations. I was so wrong lmao
They do purposely show Messmer's hand first before they reveal him in his entirety in the trailer, and it is very similar to Miquella's hand hanging out of his cocoon... It was very deliberate, why did they do this?
@@user_J117Probably because it's clearly a thing they share in common that none of the other demigods have.
@@user_J117literally just to fool me I guess. Show family resemblance? I think hands can just be evocative though. The gangly arms do fit with his ambling energy.
1 THATS NOT CAELID.
2 THATS NOT RODERIKA.
3 THATS NOT RENNALA.
False.
@@TheFeralFerret His analysis, yes.
this video is low key pissing me off like wtf is he talking about
Wow y’all are pretty aggressive. Let the man show us his first impressions
Emphasis on 3 not being Rennala 😂 Thats a whole man
Wild random speculation: The Shadow Lands are actually the central part of the landmass. In the Lands Between, there's a big ocean in the middle of the continent; what if there was once land there and it was hidden away in the Shadow Lands? It would explain how a zone allegedly "the size of Limgrave, maybe larger" could contain so many disparate areas that appear to come from all over the Lands Between. It would also explain how the Erdtree's shadow could be present (as opposed to the Shadow Lands being physically distant from the Erdtree). The Erdtree in the Lands Between is actually growing up out of the ocean next to Leyndell, but if that "ocean" is actually part of the landmass of the Shadow Lands, then the tree would actually be inside the landmass.
Sorry but did you read the Interviews? You speak as if this dlc takes place in the past but is allready confirmed that take place in the same time as base game just on a different realm
The DLC doesn’t take place in the past, but it may still show us things from the past. The Old Hunters DLC from Bloodborne is a good example of what that might look like.
@@willowparker-ct3pq yes but from the Interview the realm of shadow is not a "copy" dimension that duplicates thing of the past but a hidden world who was part of the normal world but for some story related stuff got "sealed" away, more like the painted world than the Hunters nightmare, so everything here is "new" that tree is not the Erdtree but its "shadow" (whatever that means) , we are not getting to see what happen but what is happening on the other side, obviouslly we can get glimpse of the past like the "Lion" boss that IS said in the Interview to be part of the culture that existed before marika became a god , but is because this culture was preserved.
Just because it was stated that the DLC "does not occur in the past" does not mean it can't contain representations of older periods or historic events. The comparison made with the Hunter's Nightmare from Bloodborne seems plausible. We're likely talking about dreams/nightmares after all.
Yet another great video by TA 😄
I know it's speculative fun but, speaking so matter of factly about things so off the mark, especially with what's been established already it is very irksome.
I was ripping my hair up throughout this
I love how unhinged this is. Especially when Miyazaki said this takes place in a separate land in conjunction with the main story. And every part of this video seems to be based on the premise that this is taking place in the Lands Between before the shattering
There's so much great video analysis going on and I love the strangler vine and the fact you saw the ship! I haven't heard anyone talk about the ship yet!
I know its not a competition, but I personally find this channel to be the one to provide the most insight in to the game for me. So glad to see you put your two cents on the trailer!
TA provides a lot of cool theories and insight, but also makes wild assumptions that are most likely false and derail the rest of their arguments. Just in this video, assuming the dlc is set in the past, (which not only there isn't any indication for it, but Miyazaki himself has contradicted) leads him to say things like a zone is past Caelid (why? there's literally no evidence of this!), that a man (gender to be confirmed) who doesn't look like Rennala is somehow past Rennala still in her prime, and other baseless speculations.
It saddens me because I really like the formatting of the videos and I appreciate the research, but it can all go moot very fast.
I'm not saying this to trash TA, just to let you know that, although original, you should take the info he gives with a grain of salt. He's even quoted wrongly book sources before 😢
@@BigBadWolframiodude looked at some b roll of player characters and called one of then Roderika because of her blue robe, even though she wore a RED robe.
I think (and havent seen yet) that the Lion dancer might be the first stage of a Godwym fight. The possible evidence being:
1) Large muscly warrior with hints of barbarian dress under the hide is very similar to Hoarah Loux (HL). Bare feet etc.
2) Lion hide used similar to how Serosh drapes HL. As if crudely mimicking his father.
3) Dark skin and crucible horns similar to his direct siblings Morgot and Mohg.
4) First full shot shows that in the back of the figure there is a leg that is distant and smaller that his other leg. The covering and these spread limbs might be similar to Godrick and Grafted Scions. The former supposed to be a decendant of the olden order and likely Godwyn. His wild twisted flailing also seems similar to those aforementioned fights.
5) Dark skin, grey blue eyes, and Deathblight breath as a power of him being the Prince of Death. I will say the color of the breath attack is more the black-silver of death soceries than the black-gold of Deathblight. Although those elements seem similar as the Prince of Death Staff is found right outside of Fia/Lichdragon Fortissax/Godwyn's arena. Also noted that his DLC arena seems to be in the death-swamp you're seen running through in the trailer.
6) The Lightning attack is from the Dragon Cult Incantations. Which came to be when the Ancient dragons, Fortissax, taught Godwyn when he defeated them. He is the only Demigod to use Lightnight.
I think that the fight stages and his themes will show the progression from trying to replicate his former image of his golden lineage. Then to the transitional state of him changing from the golden boy to the prince of death via the Crucible imagery. The crucible being representative of chaos, transition, and change. The Crucible elements coming from his father's lineage. The similarities to grafting being representative of how much of an amalgamation of influences Godwyn has become. Lastly his final form being that of the deformed darkened Deathblight prince.
I expect that first stage will play like HL and Godrick' fight then the second stage there will be death lightning like Lichdragron Fortissax's fight.
Let me know your thoughts, if I missed something that argues for or against this theory. Thanks for your time!
This man did not read the interviews nor pay attention to the promo material.
I think the events which are reflected in the Realm of Shadow via the DLC are much older than you would suspect. In fact, I would very much place Messmer as being a key part of Marika's ascension, and the Age of Plenty to follow. In particular, I'd say he was the one who *built* Volcano Manor, and his disappearance and scrubbing from history long before Rykard was even born was why that particular demigod seems to have had to engage in quite a bit of archaeology and reconstruction himself in order to re-acquire the magic that his long-departed half-brother produced.
I'm sorry but I don't think that's Rennala
I agree
"The Erdtree was burned once before" theory seems even more plausible now ngl.
except that it's not set in the past, miasaki specifically said that its not in the past
@@Pillowcasethegreat but Messmer was banished here, since he was probably the son of Marika and Radagon he would have to have committed a very serious crime to be punished like this
What if the shadow tree is the burned Erdtree and the one we see in game is either a ghost or a second one.
@@PillowcasethegreatLook at it this way, it is set in the present, but it's past is connected to the lands between as it used to be part of it. So we can absolutely deduce past events with this DLC.
@@Pillowcasethegreatseems more and more likely that messmer committed the cardinal sin against the erdtree, likely burning it, and was banished to the shadow dimension and has been removed from history.
Some characters start with g some start with r and some start with m. George RR Martin will be the final boss mark my words
I trust you Anne Frank!
It seems obvious to me that the strangler fig is sttangling the erdtree much like a snake strangles a mouse, thus mesners connection to snakes. Im very curious if the dragons of this world were maligned as treacherous snakes despite their connection to the crucible knights that defend the tree.
CHARACTERISTICALLY UNHINGED SPECULATION!!!!! This is what we’re here for.
FINALLY the wisest lore-smith comments on it!!
I believe Messmer is Radagon's and Marika's third child. I think he may also be cursed in a way, perhaps as some kind of vessel for the formless mother. Messmer might have played a role during the war against the fire giants, considering the impaler corpses and the fact that Messmer's title is "the impaler". And perhaps after the war Messmer burnt the Erdtree the first time. That'd explain the ash in Leyndell. I guess that'd get you banished, even as demigod or maybe even as a hushed empyrean.
People are getting hung up on Time in a FromSoft DLC lol. He mentions in the same interview that we'll be seeing relics of the Land's history that existed prior to Marika's arrival, so we are definitely getting to experience a LOT of the "past" in this DLC, regardless of our player character's "present" as they/we explore the Land Of Shadow and follow in the footsteps of Miquella.
Much Love TA! Long time and permanent fan! Can Not wait to play this, and for your videos covering it!! Your unique eye brings so much to FromSoft's worlds for me (and I'm sure many others). Keep it up friends! Wild speculations, history lessons, and all :)
The winged serpent seems super connected to Messmer. The winged serpent statues are in Volcano Manor, but we never see an actual winged serpent. Even the god devouring serpent is wingless. Rykard's title is Praetor, and in Rome there were always two praetors as a part of the government and the military. What if Messmer was the original chosen of the pagan winged serpent deity. Messmer led the forces of Gelmir first into the Lands of Shadow with Marika, but then ran against the Erdtree. His punishment was to be locked within the Land of Shadows. Rykard was given Gelmir later where he discovered and became obsessed with the Winged Serpent, eventually finding what he believed to be the offspring of this winged serpent, but the God-Devouring Serpent was a weaker species of great serpent that was able to thrive in the absence of the winged serpent. Praetor is the title Rykard took as an honorific, depicting himself as the "second" leader of this faction.
I refreshed my subscription feed numerous times in the past couple days, hoping to see your video pop up. You and your content are loved!
The best analysis I've seen so far! You are the most accurate and insightful soulsbourne channel I've seen! Keep up good work
Damn, you really should've let this video cook for longer. Even casual lore enthusiasts know that the DLC doesn't take place in the past. Should've done your research and read the interviews with Miyazaki more carefully. He literally told us that this is not the past. The Lands of Shadow is merely hidden, so there's history there, but it's happening at the same time as the rest of the game.
I love your different take on analysing lore in Elden Ring, but I've started to realise that quite a few of your assertions only stand when not fully scrutinised, such as the supposed "Greattree" relief being a different tree when really it's just another version of the Erdtree. The original Japanese script of the game makes that more apparent. Also, just look at the Erdtree Surcoat. Additionally, the lion boss in the trailer is much more obviously invoking imagery of Chinese Dancing Lions. You can even see the multiple sets of human feet under it. Not everything in this game made by a whole bunch of people from an Asian culture is going to be only inspired by western mythology.
I think your analysis of ER is somewhat skewed by you cultural and personal biases, which is understandable as we all look at things through such lenses. I just expect a bit more thorough research from you at this point.
I agree with you that cultural bias is ubiquitous, and that games media is saturated with purely Weatern perspectives. I would like to see TA explore more Eastern themes in future videos, as there is still plenty to explore there.
However, TA did state at the beginning of the video and at the end of it that they had not yet interacted with any of the promotional materials beyond the trailer and this was purely speculation based on initial impressions. While the nature of the video seemed perfectly clear to me, I think that TA made the right decision to change the title and thumbnail of the video to help manage viewer expectations. I like that TA listens to their community and understands that, ultimately, all lore videos are explorations of theory based on a shaky set of assumptions. The fun is in listening to people make connections and tell the story from a new perspective.
It's been a while so I can't remember where, but I remember hearing a theory that the Erdtree is a parasite that took over a tree that used to be there. Perhaps what we're seeing isn't another tree coiling around the Erdtree, but instead the Erdtree coiling around the previous tree
Considering GRR Martin didn't know what parts of his work ended up actually *being* in Elden Ring, and didn't know how it was addapted. I think the idea, that we know for sure that he wrote about the shattering, is built on pretty shaky ground.
It seems more likely to me that Martin wrote a comprehensive backstory, pieces of which FromSoft used as they pleaced, stringing together their own *different* timeline, *all parts of which* built from a combination of Martin's original work and FromSoft's own stories.
This is the way Miazaki describes the process in *all* his interviews talking about it. The *only* reason people think Martin just wrote the shattering war is because he vaguely said that the parts he wrote happened some thousands of years before the game. *George doesn't know what happens in the game* and many parts of the timeline have been *changed* during development, just look at how different Miquella's story is ending up being compared to the cut content in the files, from just a few versions before launch.
In my opinion, people need to stop taking the idea that George wrote the Shattering War and nothing else, and the idea that *whatever* he wrote wasn't changed *a lot* between writing and game launch, as gospel.
I wonder if maybe the reason for architectural similarities is that the Shadow Realm is a parallel universe that was created the moment the Erd Tree blossomed from the Crucible. So all preexisting architecture was copied over, but anything built since then isn't there (basically, like the Upside Down in Stranger Things S4). Which would be cool because it would effectively be an architectural time capsule for the pre-Erd Tree Lands Between, and would explain no Hailig Tree/scarlet otted Caelid.
I got a theory about Messmer and since I feel like it was inspired by the things I learned from your channel I feel this is the best place to put it.
Behind Messmer is a statue of Marika holding an infant. A statue that looks a lot like the statues of Mary holding a baby Jesus. There has been wide speculation on who Messmer's father is and who his siblings could be. Most believing him to a sibling to Malenia and Miquella, or even be an alter of Miquella, due to his red hair. This must mean he's be a child of Radagon right? This is where the statue comes into play. Messmer is Marika's first born, from after her becoming a God, and he was born without a father.
He grew up helping his mother conquer the lands between. Before snakes were regarded as traitors. And he was good. Too good. He believed in his mothers cause of bringing everyone under the Elden Ring. However something happened. Maybe he burnt down the original Erdtree, thus making the gold glow we see today necessary, or he tried to take her place as the chosen Elden Lord. So, Marika banished him, and spent a bunch of time scrubbing him from history, painting his iconography as symbols of treason, and even going as far to make the red haired alter Radagon.
I believe its possible that some of Radagon's feats aren't his own and they actually belong to Messmer. And when people would talk of Messmer's accomplishments they would be corrected and be told that it was actually a man named Radagon who had done it. The unusual red hair they both share would have been enough to gaslight people into believing that it was never a man named Messmer but rather Radagon. Effectively erasing Messmer from history.
Of course this is all just theories and I could be way off base. But that is the fun of all of this. To put theories into the world and find out how close you were to the truth.
I don't think the female figure in blue hood is Roderika. I think it's just a random Tarnished player showcasing a new spell.
1. Not Renala, Miyazaki confirmed that this is set in present time and not in the past.
2. The roar incantation isn't a lion but a bear. (Also, I think it was pointed out in a Miyazaki interview that one of the inspirations of the lion boss are the chinese dancing lions, you can clearly see there are 2 or more people propping the lion's head in the trailer, or at least there's 2 set of feet.)
3. Just re-itering since it is pointed again in #6 1/2, the events of the DLC are after you become Elden Lord or at least in the present time, there is no past/future, but rather this is a different realm, the Land of Shadows, again as per Miyazaki in an interview. Also this means that even if the land and sturcture is similar to the base game, this doesn't mean that it is a 1:1 copy of it.
Other than that, most of the points you made are interesting, great video! I hope my points above will be of help on you upcoming video, you can also check Ratatoskr, since he discussed all of Miyazaki's interviews regarding the DLC. Cheers!
I was wondering why all the statues of marika had her arms up in a crucifixion pose. yes, that's how we find her inside the Erdtree, but that's her being punished. the statures (presumably) show her in her glory. but, if you switch your perspective, and imagine that instead of looking at her side on, you are looking DOWN at her - as implied by the swirl of her dress around her. in that case, her arms are outstretched to her sides- just like Radagon in his statues. just another hint at their connection.
Ah I've been anxiously awaiting a 20 minute lore essay based on a 3 minute clip. Without any irony whatsoever.
Messmer's snakes and spear are reminiscent of the Caduceus, a symbol for Mercury. Together with his red color, he seems to represent the Rubedo stage of the alchemical magnum opus. Maybe we'll see him somehow "merge" with Miquella into a golden Ultima Materia?
Serpents-Snakes symbolise treachery and manipulation most of the time, if not all (Story of Adam and Eve)
Messmer might be a excellent manipulator-tactician, Miquella is on the same boat too.
I think Miquella and Messmer are 2 seperate people, who made some sort of deal in order to achieve something.
Maybe Messmer became Miquella and wanted Mogh to kidnap him in order to grant him the powers of Formless mother-complete powers? He may even team up with the rest Outer Gods at some point.
Malenia doesnt ask you where her brother is because she knows where he is, she knows about the Shadowlands, she knows about Messmer, she knows everything.
In order to go to the dlc, you need to kill Mogh and Radahn. The reason for Malenia to defeat Radahn, was to give open access to the Shadowlands, in order to find her brother. But still, Mogh remains.
Messmer and Miquella had orchestrated their plan long time ago. Maybe Miquella fooled Radahn by giving him access to the Shadowlands in order to meet Messmer, and Miquella returned... but it was Messmer in Miquellas form (St. Trina???)
Mogh was jailed during those times and knew nothing + he was practicing his arts. He might also knew that Miquella = Messmer but never cared because... Mogh, and because Messmer was offspring of Marika and Radagon, so he worked with what he had and called it a day.
Malenia decide to find her brother because she was running out of time. The Shattering happened, Maybe Messmer manipulated Radagon-Marika as Miquella and the Shattering occured.
Miquella knew that this would happen but decided to take the risk and keep his deal because his plan was far greater than Messmers.
Miquella wants the age of the Crucible back in order to achieve world peace... But peace was never the option for most of his family.
Ranni might wanted to help Miquella because she thought that peace would be achieved only if the influence of Greater Will-Outer Gods was renoved from the Lands Between, and thus agreed to kill Radahn.
Update: I think Marika and The Gloam Eyed Queen are sisters-twins. The old man and the pregnant woman are their parents. The woman became pregnant by the power of the Divine Hand and the old man became her husband-observator. His woman gave birth, years passsed since, and the sisters-twins started growing stronger, to the point The Divine Hand decided to start war. The Divine Hand splitted, alongside with the sisters-twins, one parent took seperate side with one of their kids (mother alongside Marika and father alongside Gloam Eyed Queen, possibly because mother=life=Marika and father=death=Gloam Eyed Queen) Marika won and the opposed side got punished.
It has been confirmed that by Miyazaki that Shadow Lands are not the past or a dream. It is a land that was sealed away. The baldachin (veil) in the sky suspended from the Shadow Tree (that whole thing is one tree that is its own entity) is meant to represent the seal on that land. The store page states Miquella shed his body, his grace, and power to get there (he pretty much Ranni'd himself it seems). So sleep/dream seems to have just been a means to pierce the veil.
The Shadow Lands is the first place Marika emerged as a God. It appears to have once been the land devoted to the Crucible based on all the Omen and fused creatures we see. We have for sometime assumed there was a smooth transition from Crucible worship to Erdtree worship and if my read on things is right, this DLC is gonna tell us "no, there was a war between the Goddess of the burgeoning Erdtree and the Crucible Faithful." We will learn about this war, we will likely indirectly learn how Marika rose to power. We will also encounter Messmer the Impaler who seems to be both a Demi-god child of Marika (her statue is in his arena but she is holding a baby instead of extending her arms to praise the sun) the "Snake" that betrayed the Erdtree, with a chance he was also a big part of the war on the Giants.
Basically, the DLC takes place in our own time on an island that is seal away by magic that can only be accessed via whatever Miquella did. But the place is real, not a dream or a time amalgamation. It is the first land the Erdtree Faithful conquered. So we will get to walk around an explore where the Golden Order was actually born. But we will have to continue to do it from an archaeological stand point.
The Lion boss, looks to be a Lion Dance. Imagine Chinese New Year, when you see several people in a line with a colorful sheet over them, the first person in line controls a paper mache head that opens its mouth. I hope I am not taken for culturally insensitive but this tracks with us gaining a monk-style martial arts weapon skillset. The incantation you sited was a red furred horned bear head.
I like how you mention it being a seal on the land. Could also be what Miyazaki meant when he said certain outer gods were “sealed away” in the item descriptions.
Here's my theory: The Land of Shadows is essentially a pale "reflection" of the Lands Between containing all of the things that didn't fit within Marika's Golden Order. The arrival of the Elden Ring essentially allowed Marika to split the world in two, a world with everything the Golden Order allowed and everything it rejected like the Crucible. Initially, the two were separate, but with Marika's removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, it allowed things like the Omens, the Misbegotten, etc. to begin seeping back into their rightful place and this has only accelerated since the Shattering. The Land of Shadows, however, is currently fading away, hence the veils in the sky, as it fades completely from memory with Marika's slow demise.
So the Land of Shadows is basically a jumble of everything the Golden Order is not, which is why so many disparate elements clash together, almost like the Hunter's Dreams in Bloodborne.
Messmer is actually Melina's twin brother because you can see that they both have the same eye closed. The two of them were basically foils for Miqella and Malenia, with Messmer and Melina destined to be the cause of the destruction of the Erdtree, Melina being the kindling and Messmer holding the flame. However, Marika, either in betrayal or by convincing him somehow, cast Messmer into the Land of Shadows to put a stop to his destiny, preserving the Erdtree and the Golden Order. And, just like the rest of his family, Messmer received a Rune from the Elden Ring, but it was a Rune which Marika cast off of it just like the Rune of Death. You remember the depiction of the Elden Ring in Farum Azula? Those root-like lines on the bottom look a lot like the shadows that seem to coil around Messmer's flame, I bet those root-like lines are his Rune and it is the Rune of Shadows, mirroring the Rune Melina might have had if she was indeed the original bearer of the Rune of Death. Together with Miqella and Malenia, they represent the cycle for the world as it normally was before it was altered by the Elden Ring. Abundance. Decay. Death. Shadows.
New elder ring trailers and a new tarnished archaeologist video? I am rock hard
You're the only youtuber whose made the strangler fig analogy. Makes complete sense.
You are my favourite lore youtuber. Keep up the great work! Its high quality stuff.
there is a baldachin crest which is assigned to St. Trina. Therefore, the all-covering may indicate a dream. That was also my first association with the trailer.
The Deathbed Dream of Godwyn even depicts that same strange sky-
so is that all just the deathbed dream of a demigod with powers over dreams?
After stumbling on this video a couple days ago just to see trailer analysis I can now say I’ve found one of the coolest lore channels I’ve ever seen lol
Miyazaki clarified in a japanese interview that the DLC does not take place in the future or past, it is happening at the same time as the main game. So it is not happening in the shattering, just a hidden world which we will find out why is hidden when we find out why Miquella is there.
When Miyazaki talked about GRRM's story he was talking about how this DLC is also based on what he wrote originally all those years ago, it just didn't fit within the initial game of Elden Ring. I don't think we're supposed to believe any of this is about the past since the interviewer suggested that when Miyazaki said that we would learn more about Marikas origins and Miyazaki speicifcally said that we would learn about it the same way we learn about the history of the Lands Between, we would read about past events, we would not see it or experience it.
That means that it is definately not Rennala sitting in that castle, and that city with the Lion is not Leyndell. According to the interviews it is based on a culture which was there before Marika became a god. Thats what Miyazaki said about the false lion omen boss. It is probably not even a real lion pelt for Miyakazi directly compared it to the chinese lion dance if I'm not mistaken. The men inside the costume are from that earlier culture performing a dance. So I don't think it has anything to do with the wars in the Lands Between.
I therefore don't subscribe to the idea that the DLC depicts the past. Especially since the war when Messmer supposedly set flame to the Shadow world has alredy happend, it's considered a past war.
Man this is great. My subscription feed is just filled mostly with dlc videos.
ikr
Living the dream
I’ve been watching Elden ring and dark souls videos for over a decade and this channel came out of the wild gold yonder a year ago and is genuinely my favorite channel on this entire series. It’s just so good.
1. Can't see that the "lion" doesn’t have a red mane, its obviously cloth.
2. Mistake the bear for a lion.
3. Somehow missed the fact that the one of the interviews explicitly told us that this doesn’t takes place in the past (or a dream).
And this is why you should never put too much stock in TA's analyses.
I do think there is a link with the serpents though, they are all over Messmer after all. And him being there seems to imply that he was banished by Marika.
My theory is that the Shadow Lands is an area sealed off by Marika to contain Messmer, banished to the "shadows of the Erdtree". Messmer probably sought to take the throne of Elden Lord by force as it seems he laments being "bereft of light", ineligible of Lordship by Grace, so he finds the power through the anathemic Serpents and creates his new order, a new Tree which is visibly choking the larger Erdtree, in a similar symbolism of the Serpent of Eden.
Reference to Gnostic traditions of Sethian snake worship, who upon making Adam and Eve indulge in the forbidden fruit broke the illusions of the Demiurge.
Fun Archimedes screw fact I didn't think I'd be telling today:
I can't remember how he discovered it, but an Australian bloke found that in that mechanism. It doesn't have to be the screw itself that drives the grains or particulate upwards, you can spin the cylinder that surrounds the screw. The end result is the same but you save energy as the cylinder is lighter than the screw itself while also saving on the wear and tear of turning a giant screw.
damn man, the curtains are a balduchan - that is the word for it. You know, like the balduchan blessing Fia gives you?
Yeah this video was such a bad miss. Disappointed
You and VattiVidya were the first ones on my mind when the Trailer dropped. I'm stoked for all the new deep dives you two will bring the community
I might be wrong but didn't Miyazaki confirm the DLC would take place in the present and not the past?
Was waiting for you to make a video on it! Definitely happy I was right to haha
at 8:22 you can see some legs standing atop of another figure, i think its like the Chinese dancing lion/dragon puppets, multiple people inside it, makes sense the way each section is moving unnaturally independent of its body
the roar incantation is clearly a runic bear...
bro is blind. like how did he not see that there are multiple guys beneath the lion hide? And that it's not Leyndell but a different city
That grounded ship is very interesting to me because of the rusted anchor description mentioning that only one ship stayed behind in the lands between
Also there are a bunch of big ships moored off the coast of Radahn's battleground, along with some shipwrecks
Great vid, fun to watch as always. Keep em coming fam.
You know, the thing with the galleon blew my mind. That's the good-old fashioned Tarnished Archeology that I love your work for.
What an eye for detail. Really noice.
And for that, I can ignore the bear-lion.
Because hey, it's not called Tarnished Zoology.
Theoretically speaking, it could just be a separated land, (as Miyazaki stated previously)
Miyazaki seems to heavily imply it was separated somehow. So it's past would connect to the OG content.
Where are you getting some of this from? Pre-nuked Caelid? That one NPC being a younger Rennala? The DLC taking place in the past? That obvious bear incantation being a lion? I need you to clean it up 💀
So then we know Messmer is NOT going to die since the first time a Demi-God was ever killed, was when Ranni kill Godwyn when she stole a piece of the Rune Of Death. Right? If this DLC is really a look into the past, it would be pretty badass if the cliffhanger at the end shows a future Messmer make a return, now that the tree is smoked again. That is, if Ranni (or whoever tells us about Godwyns death i cant remember) was being truthful. I just beat the game and really started diving into the lore to avoid spoilers so idk, i could be way off lmao. Just a thought.
Edit: Dammit, just read the pinned comment LMAOOO
I think we have gotten explicit confirmation that there are no time shenanigans going on in the dlc
I'd like to point out that the lion may be not only an imagery of the Herculean mythos, but also far Asian(Thailand, perhaps different panasian countries, China). What I'm trying to say here, is that many of these cultures have festivals and celebrations that involve dragon costumes, that many people at the same time are supposed to wear, which are REALLY similar to what we can see in this trailer. Googling for a bit is enough to see the similarities. Also, Miyazaki said in the recent interview that players must "keep in mind that this lion dance is from a different culture". Could that be that he meant they took inspiration from Asian cultures?
Sometimes in the scene with the Lion warrior, you can maybe see that it's actually more than one being - one possibly standing on the other's back, with the other one's hands just in resting position pointing forward.