People want to ascribe a magical, mythical status to Damascus. We've all heard the legend about Damascus swords cutting through other swords and even rifle barrels. So if you claim that you've replicated Damascus, they're going to deny it because of confirmation bias. The fact is that Damascus was nothing more than a beautifully patterned, high quality steel in an age where metal working was roughly equivalent to sorcery.
Andrew Krause Uhm no.. Damascus steel has nanotubules in it which provided the extreme strength and incredible flexibility of the swords. This has been scientifically proven already. Sure, the results were fancy and beautiful, but there are plenty of fancy and beautiful pieces of craftsmanship from the Middle Eastern world you've never seen or heard about. You know this steel because the "legends" are true and not only were the swords a beautiful sight to behold but they were brutally practical.
You're kidding right. You do understand that carbon nanotubules are found everywhere in nature, and they don't necessarily imbue any special quality whatsoever to the material they're found in. They're found in the soot of chimneys. They're found in wootz. They're found in burnt steak. They're not special, and neither are damascus steel swords by modern standards. There are plenty of examples left, and they're well studied. I'd rather have a sword or knife made from O-1 tool steel any day of the week.
Andrew Krause Im not kidding and its obvious you're uneducated on the subject and know absolutely nothing about what youre talking. Before you shoot your mouth off make sure your brains are loaded. The nanotubule structure of Damascus steel is what imbues it with its flexiblity alongside its durable strength. Try reading a bit more. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html
WalkingGhosts I'm going to point out that the article you shared says "may" and "might" as an explanation but does not say it is proven that it makes the sword special, only possibly.
Look around kid. You're surrounded by adults. Your pretentious speech coupled with you citing popular science websites doesn't impress anyone here. The article you linked to just happens to be the first article that comes up in a Google search for "damascus steel carbon nanotubes". If you had taken the time to read it, you'd realize that it actually contradicts a number of the claims you've made above, and fails to support anything you've said. Nobody with a clue is impressed by your web search scholarship. Let me clue you in on something. Actual metallurgists (people who know what they're talking about, people not you) have already stated that carbon nanotubes (CNTs) have nothing to do with the rumored properties of damascus swords. Surviving examples of damascus swords with provenance to back up their claims of superior performance characteristics were chemically analyzed, and found to have high levels of impurities like Chromium, Vanadium, Phosphorous, Copper, Nickel and Silicon. These impurities are commonly used in modern steels to produce desired properties of hardness, flexibility, corrosion resistance and strength. And objective tests show that damascus steels made from wootz do not come anywhere near the performance level of modern knife steels like 1095, S30V, O-1, D-2, and so on. Meanwhile, people who actually have a clue about CNTs know that while they have abnormally high tensile strength, their shear and compressive strength is relatively low. Adding CNTs to materials like concrete makes sense. Adding CNTs to materials like polyolefins makes sense. Adding CNTs to steels... not so much. CNT Metal Matrix Composites are not considered an avenue worth much R&D investment, which is why you don't hear about it. Shooting your mouth off on the internet is all fun and games, just remember that people who actually know what they're talking about exist. And you're not one of them.
the city of damascus was the gate way of the silk road to euorpe as that time the europian tradesman were not allowed to travel in muslim land freely to india so they only place they had acsess to make purchase was the city of damascus it was like current country of hong kong free trade
Hello Walter. I'm from Damascus myself, back home we never used the term Damascus 'steel'. What you hear is always Damascus sword. Like you said, during that period the city was known for fine craftsmen, including swordsmiths. I think that's where the term really comes from. Europeans may have started using the term Damascus steel in reference to the material the swords are made from. It's correct and incorrect at the same time. Great video as always.
Adel Samara Read my comment again my friend. You said the same thing: "a technique of the Damasian sword" of which the folding of steel is a key part. It isn't about where the steel itself comes from, but rather how it's used to produce its unique qualities. Cheers
the term damascene steel refers to the very reknown velvet called damascene that was a asked after trading good, and had similiar patterns in the light as the steel steels in the kind of damascene steel were known in europe since several centurys bc , and then were abondened in central and western europe in the middle ages since in europe better more homogeneous steels emerged when then water powered hammers helped makuing the worlds then best and most homogueneous steel by making it possible to forge large amounts of steel fastly as much as about 21 times, thereby eliminating the need for damascene steel as these had the tendency to delaminate in blade to blade contact if it was made low quality and there by monosteel was cheaperby the same quality and avaidable in shorter time
Damascus steel is like Himalayan Sea Salt, you can get that pink salt from Poland too, but you aren't going to sell much of it calling it "Polish pit rock salt". Although people know it's wootz, if you market it as wootz, it's going to come back to you in the form of less sales.
It depends on who the target is. If someone marketed a knife to me as a "Damascus steel knife" I'd inquire whether it's Wootz or pattern-welded steel. I would fully expect the seller to recite an answer he doesn't understand himself, repeating that it's "Damascus steel" and not giving me any new information.
The current batch of Damascus knife-makers displays amazing imagination and wonderful creativity in their work! Thanks for the clarification, for a deep dive on Wootz I'd recommend: Alfred Pendray, Wootz Hunter.
"You will never ever be successful, until you turn your pain into greatness. Until you allow your pain to push you from where you are, to where you need to be. Stop running from your pain and embrace your pain." - Keep doing well good sir!
Totally agree here. I dont know nearly as much as you or others about steel but in german too the word "Damaszener Stahl" (damascus steel) just means steel that is combined of different types of steel or iron and is forming a visible pattern regardless where it comes from. If you want to be more precise just take a modern technical term like, folded, pattern welded, crucible steel or whatever.
About time some one got this point across, well done! I've been telling people there was a massive amount of trade going on as far back as the stone age in Europe. Stones from Spain found in stone age sites in England. We (British) were importing lemons in to Britain in the 13 th century with a lot of other item from the middle east, including steel. A lot came from Damascus, because a lot of the major silk trade routs ended at Damascus as you right pointed out. So it is not to hard to think that if a Blacksmith brought some steel from a merchant at some point in time and asked where it came from and was told "Damascus", then he would call it such. But you tell some people this and ones words fall on deaf ears, I guess the old saying of: "There none so blind that will not see, or deaf that will not listen!" Thank you for taking the time to make and post this video, long needed and well explained. Cheers! :)
Fantastic presentation! Highly accurate and non-biased and not withstanding much that isn't known to us, convincingly putting the myths and mysteries of this steel to sleep. Thank you Mr Sorrell, well researched.
It was discovered that the Wootz Damascus steel had a small percentage of vanadium in it, and this is what caused the patterns on the blades. it was not layered steel at all. Researchers located an iron mine that had that particular ore of iron and vanadium in it - south of Damascus. They took ore from that very mine and created the wootz in a crucible and sure enough the same pattern of the ancient "Damascus" steel was made.
Thanks very much , Walter. After having read time and again that the art of making "true Damascus steel" is as lost to time as the libraries of Alexandria, (and admittedly, although I've left no derogatory comments on any knife makers videos when they claim to be making a 'Damascus steel' blade) I must confess my arrogance and judgement toward them as I truly believed that they were trying to sell a beautiful, yet falsely labeled product for their own gains. Not unlike removing a Honda emblem from your motorcycle and replacing it with a Harley decal. I now think I understand more of what the definition of Damascus Steel is. I myself have very little experience in the way of knife making, short of making a few soft blades from half-hard stainless sheet metal, shaping it with a band saw, sharpening it with hand files, sanding with 180, 240, 500, 800, then 1200 grit sand paper, then drilling, shaping, and peening them together using aircraft rivets to affix exotic wood stock handles from scrap wood in my workplace (I work in Papua New Guinea, cool wood there to work with) and just giving the knives to the locals who have no pocket knives. They are always quite pleased with the end result, but I've never attempted any sort of hardening, quenching, or heat treatment. Watching your videos, I'd like very much to either buy or build a forge, good hammer, anvil, and see what I'm capable of. I think once I have some room in the garage, I'd like see what I can do. I apologize for the length of this comment, but if I may ask, after I begin (very humbly, of course) with something as simple as a paring knife, would you be so kind as to look at some pictures or videos I could send your way? I believe that people can learn from the mistakes of others, so in the hope of educating others, I'd be honoured for you to use my failed or substandard knives in your videos as "how not to" or "this is Matt's first forged knife, see how he is shaping it wrong, not getting it hot enough, striking the wrong way... ect." In short, I'm happy to be the guy who's mistakes can teach other, all I want in return is for you to tell me what I'm doing wrong, so that I may improve. If you get a chance to read this, please let me know what you think of the idea. Matt Pollock Aircraft Mechanic
I had been very confused about this term for quite some time and I really appreciated how thorough, but at the same time considering the amount of information you covered, how to the point you were. Great video!
Mr Sorrels, have you ever done a video about how to start and setup a forge, and what basic tools you would need to get started. I remember you talking about your first projects were making your own special tools, what was your forge like?
Well unfortunately I accidently deleted my comment. ugh. To sum it up I wish I could hit the like button about a hundred more times. The people who haven't even attempted to make a blade or even have the intention to do so, quit telling the craftsmen that make damascus as well as MAKE WOOTZ after many years of study and labor that they are completely wrong and stupid when they use the word damascus when refering to "pattern welded steel".
thanks for clearing that up. i love that you mentioned wootz, which is the real 'damascus' steel. [referring to the blade qualities, outstanding limits, and grain pattern.] most people associate damascus with this super blade, but it was southern india (kerala) who mastered its production, and get little credit today.
Future Historical Findings in year 3015: "The Flaming War of Damascus Steel. This War took place in the early 2010's. As the name suggests, this era was named as such for the way they handled disputes with Damascus Steel swords doused in flames. If anyone dared disagree, a duel of Flaming Damascus Steel swords were used until a victor emerged and the other slain, therefore no one disagreed with the winner as all those whom had disagreed were fallen. That is until the next challenger fells the previous victor and therefore the dispute shifted to the new champion's opinion alignment."
Great video and plenty of accurate information in it. Think its best to use the terms "historic" and "modern" to describe the two methods.The term "Damascus Steel" carried over into Europe only because Damascus was a major trading hub and a manufacturing center so it became a branding for the steel and such blades at that time. Later when the modern patterned steel emerged, the term remained because it was unknown that these were produced by a different method. The historic Damascus method of producing patterns in the blades is indeed quite different and its because of the metallurgic properties of wootz steel. Wootz is a high carbon, crucible steel alloy with impurities in it. The most significant ones were phosphorus and vanadium but also manganese. Phosphorus made forging problematic at higher temperatures so it was worked with at lower temperatures where the presence of vanadium or manganese favored the formation of carbides which then came out as patterns in the finished blades. The Blacksmiths of the Middle East and Central Asia, Persia etc. simply honed and refined their methods to consistently produce patterned blades from a single block of wootz, rather then through combination of different steels. However, the combination method is much more economical and efficient, hence an easier and faster production of good quality patterned blades was possible. So the historic method was forgotten over time. Conclusion: the historic Damascus method is the true and original method of patterning simply because the steel differs in its metallurgic structure and having different properties compared to high temperature hardening of layered steel. However, this fact becomes irrelevant to us now because our knowledge of the metallurgy of steels goes much further beyond. So it is not a matter of quality of the finished blade for us, but it rather becomes one of style. Hence: Patterns in the steel= Damascus Historic Damascus= single steel + carbides Modern Damascus= combination of steels
Shhhyeah! +Batonix80 Nice one. Good explantion. That video rocked too. I have been aware of this discrepency but never had a stable enough knowledge base to put it into words. Also, i don't give a hoot. Like you said, our steel skills are way more boss now then backin the day. Throw up some references if you get a chance. I'd loke to read 'em.
YOu apparently don't care about the quality of the sword, just the look of it? Sorry but i have to disagree. The name became famous due to the quality of the swords, not the pretty face which can be done even more pretty by engraving and other methods commonly used in the west. One should strive to duplicate the sword, not the looks of it. We are too much into the artificial now and seem to have lost the substance of not only the Damascus blades.
@Blacktimus Prime I always love those who make the statement like "My grandpappy said this so its good enough for me." Lots of people though the world was flat, doesn't make it so. you have been lead to water.... no need to reply, I won't respond. Pearls before swine and such.
It is good to run across someone that has studied and researched these two phrases. I have found that "Pretty Wootz" is a far superior steel over a "not pretty wootz" or "Pattern Damascus Steel"! And they hold their edge for ever...…..
Great video, I enjoy the fact this guy speaks clear concise slow and isn’t racing through the information..heck it’s a video where I can honestly say I can recall just about everything he said.. dude needs to be an instructor, teacher whatever, as the number one complaint I’ve always had and all of my kids and many friends had is teachers race through the info too quick, I’m guessing its due to the fact they been over it thousand times before a new student reaches their doorway and they simply expect others to keep up…anyway again great video..
Back in the 1970s while I attended a welding school I bought a book about metallurgy and it carried a fascinating section on the ancient Damascus steel and the fact some folks were trying to reproduce it. They were combing through what accounts could be found by explorers who'd been to Damascus and seen parts of the process. They were, understandably, keeping what they found out to themselves. About all the book seemed to have was that the process included forge welding wrought iron to some sort of steel and folding it, and a hardening process which included heating the blade up to critical temperature and quenching it in camel dung (Primitive carburizing perhaps?). I was intrigued and wanted to figure out how it was done. It was also about that time I made my first knife blade out of tungsten steel from a broken blade with a walnut handle. A couple of years later I bought a copy of an outdoor sporting magazine and saw an article in it that a knifemaker had figured it out and was making Damascus knives. I like to think the name was Carter, but don't hold me to it since it's been so long. I kind of quit thinking about it then. Based on what you said, Mr. Sorrells, (I have a son-in-law by that name) I can't help but wonder if the process of making those old blades was similar to that of the Katanas in that a softer steel or iron core was wrapped with an envelope of the Woot steel to make those old blades. My guess is that somebody would have to make a good examination of a genuine Damascus blade from the period and I don't see anybody giving over one of those valuable blades for that unless our new radiological or sonographic techniques are good enough to do that without destroying any part of the blade. If it's already been done I would be interested in the results if you know about them Good video, i think the modern definition should be used since it is the standard for the market. The ancient is more of a historical note..
So i'm aware that this video is a few years old, but I thought that it might be useful to hear this. 1: love the videos. 2: The vikings actually forge welded iron and steel to make swords that had introcate patters and markings, this was done by twisting, pulling, and folding the steel iron mix upon itself. After shaping they then used acid to make the pattern show.
I'm trying to get into the metal trade, and I've been welding for a few years now so these videos are extremely entertaining; thank you for the wisdom sir! Gonna hit that subscribe button~
I was hoping this video would show us how to spot folded damascus and steel with cheap look-alike steel, e.g. laser etched. You see these knives on amazon for $30 that say things like vg-10 damascus steel which seems really impossible to be true. Just as an example, go to amazon and search for Kubey Damascus Stel Folding Knife and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about
Yeah, you are kinda right, but I still want to whine about it! LOLZ! Turns out they found out that the presence of transition elements allowed the carbon to form nanotubes in the steel. So get you some transition elements, and clay crucible and see if you can copy it!
Well in Poland we had 2 words Damascus - pattern welded steel Bułat - crucible steel (east source) About time consumed in forging - 1,2 kg cake can take up to 8 - 12 hours of forging to get a flat bar (10 mm x 30 mm x 400) And it needs to be mostly done by hand (cake is prone to cracking) I got no experience with pattern welding but forging from cake to 3 knife blanks, griding, hardening, final polishing and eching can take up to over a week of work. Of course cake can crack in early and material is wasted :( Next thing is "pattern" I think that in acient times wavy pattern was a symbol of high carbon steel used to forge a blade. Normal blades from bloomery iron didnt have such pattern. Difference was simple - there is wavy pattern - "good blade". Nice film, I'm fan of your work.
As wootz wasn't always so plainly patterned and very widespread at some points I wonder if it's best to refer to it not as Damascus steel but Damascus pattern. Regardless of whether it's crucible/wootz or pattern welded.
I didn't knew about "Damascus steel" until recently. I knew however about "Damascus swords" and I think thats the origin of the name. As many of us know, many time the words "sword" or "blade" or even "knife", was replaced with the word "steel". Having "steel" meant to carry a blade. So, historically, the description "Damascus sword" might have transformed into "Damascus steel" - which basically means the same thing.
Mr. Sorrells my son and I are trying to figure out how to make feather damascus steel.Are you able to help with some directions on getting the pattern right? We're newbies so any advise will help.Thanks for the great videos,it's something my son and I do together now.
Damascus was a place where various pattern welded swords and knives were traded just like today , but no different to hundreds of other trading places of the time.
Nice video bro. This info (which incidentally I completely agree with) is something I've been aware of for a number of years now. I love it when someone takes a truly unambiguous approach to a much debated topic and as you yourself said, "put it to bed". Hopefully this video get seen by many - particularly those folk who're so invested in the massive conjecture that has clouded the point and made this such an emotional yet essentially pointless topic for argument...
the damascus steeel i read about in school was rusted and polished over and over and said to last. so there has to be sword in a museum to show example. to where it was forged. how it was made.
Back in the 1960s. I was taught in school that Damascus steel was two or more pieces of steel forge welded together. What I was taught was more towards the manufacturing of a Damascus steel barrel. Where the Black Smith or barrel manufacturer would wrap red hot steel around a mandrill. Then hammer forge the steel, welding the steel together. I was also taught that you should never fire a Damascus Steel barrel on any firearm. This was because the black powder used is extremely corrosive and may have weakened the forge welds. Maybe I am wrong. But that's what I learned in school.
Just to give you an idea how out of touch I am, I had no idea there was an argument about damascus steal, however the idea about contact with swordsmiths from Damascus makes a lot of common sense. Thumbs up Mr Sorrells. I'm not sure if its intentional or not, but he also makes a good argument about using the net as a source for research is really not the best way to go, and explains why there are people making pseudo arguments about damascus steal
Good job. I have always thought that there has been way too much vitriol as to what the word Damascus means in regard to steel. Crucible vs pattern welded; both are testimony to human ingenuity.
Mr. Sorrells thank you for your explanation on your video, however, putting all that a side, I remember when my Grand Father, (from Lebanon) worked fixing guns for the police, and army, making knives, and taught me how to melt steel add carbon, and other elements teaching me to make the same material that he used, from there a continued making different patterns of what we know by what ever we like to call it. Really I don’t care how it is call, but I can say the designs taught by my GRAND FATHER, are nice and very strong. I like what I produce and I thanks him for passing alone all he new, thank you and have a good day.
The manufacturing of wootz steel, dates from middle Chola period[early 11th century] of Tamil region from South India, also many deadliest weapons such as maan kombu [horn of blackbuck]'valari[sharp iron edged boomerang]kattari[katar],Kuttu katai[ spiked knuckleduster ],surul pattai [flexible sword]Sedikuchi[ cudgel or short stick, often wielded as a pair.],etc.... and many martial arts such as silambam[staff fighting], kuthu varisai[Karate is believed to be derived from this art form]varma kalai[deadliest and vigourous form of martial art,, much older than kung fu] etc....
Damascus was at the western end if the "Silk road", along which the high carbon steel was traded in Medieval times in ingot or "pudding" form. The smiths in Damascus learned (or were taught by smiths from India) how to work the ingots without destroying the crystalline structure. They kept this a closely guarded secret, thus ensuring a monopoly on high quality "Damascus" steel swords and they received a premium price for their product. Because the swords were only available there they were called Damascene swords. There was no confusion or deceit in the term.
I recently watched a youtube video by an American Smith who had worked out how to reproduce Wootz Damascus using the crucible method. He got the attention of a US steel maker (can't remember any of the names). They had a metallurgist work with him to see how he was doing it. Two guys from Jordan in the Middle East found out about it and made contact and came over bringing with them Iron Ore from a mine once owned by Saladin ( spelled wrongly for sure). This I believe is were the legend of the Damascus Swords comes from. Incidentally the two Jordanians were saying no one has successfully made Wootz Damascus since about 1670 and according to them can only be made from ore from this mine. Saladin was so convinced of the worth of this ore he built a castle fortification on a hill near by and stationed a garasion there to protect it. The American Smith did indeed manufacture wootz from the ore brought to him from Jordan. has has since passed away but I believe the steel maker has what they need to reproduce Wootz with ore from elsewhere now. Anyway enough of my ramblings I have found the name of the youtube clip. The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel check it for your self.
I like your videos, very informative, the one about steel hardening was explaining metallurgy stuff like no other on youtube, excellent. Thanks from a knife enthusiast!
It is the same like the Arabic Numerals. It originated in India but was transferred to Europe via the Arabs so it became Arabic Numerals. Wootz steel was made in India and became know to the European via Arabia during the Crusades hence the name Damascus steel.
Damascus was also famous for being a trade centre on the western end of the Silk Route - and not only of steel weapons but also of cloth including - ta da! - "Damask" cloth (first recorded in C14th France). It is a fundamental weaving process with patterns in the cloth. Funnily enough not that different from pattern welded steel...see where I'm going with this? Both likely came back to western Europe due to the Crusades.
Nice job dropping some knowledge on the internet know-it-all warriors, Walter. It's pretty annoying when people try to call out professionals, especially with crap facts, using the anonymity of the internet as their shield.
I was told by a sword smith that "Damascus" ingots were manufactured in India and smithed in Syria. The ingots formed were similar to japanese tamahagane.
Very informative as always. Thanks for taking the time to impart your knowledge and research on those of us who are only casually acquainted with knifemaking!
Damascus (From Dimasqu) Paisley (town in West Scotland), Nike(Greek goddess of victory), Mercedes (named after Mercédès Jellinek). The names all stands for something that has little to do with where the name original came from. In language it happens all the time. For instance MJ changed the meaning of BAD forever worldwide. As long as we agree what a word means we are using it correctly no matter what it's origin.
it's absolutely correct to say that pattern welded and forged Wootz steels have been referred to equally as "Damascus steel" since at least the 12th century and you could equally use the same term for the high quality steels used by the Vikings and others before then, but I think the real controversy centres around the fact that there are now many people selling blades made by creating very simple, quick and cheap to forge, pattern welded steels, using highly dissimilar raw materials, involving very few layers, which when twisted only a couple of turns produce a highly visible, ornamental pattern, but are wholly unsuitable as blade steels where edge hardness, edge retention and blade integrity are concerned and would undoubtably fail firearms proofing tests at the same sort of thickness used by the likes of Purdey and other gunsmiths.This kind of unscrupulous behaviour cheapens the value of consciensciously crafted steels, which are far harder, more expensive and time consuming to make and by short-cutting the lamination process, using unsuitable grades of raw steel, the fact that they aren't made according to the original principles, age old skill refinement and constant attention to suitability for the specific purpose for which its being made, means that labelling them "Damascus steels" is no different to labelling a crumpled paper towel "Origami" and I'm certain that no right minded person would consider that correctSo in my own personal opinion, using the term "Damascus steel" to describe the very pretty, but useless ornamental pattern welded items being thrown out piecemeal by many people and certainly 90% of the rubbish blades currently coming out of the Indian sub-continent and much of South East Asia is at best misguided and at worst completely misleading and for that reason alone I believe words like "fake" and "imitation" are well used.
My knowledge of Damascus steel before this video was essentially; that it was steel made in ancient times using an unknown to this day method, and it was stronger by far than other methods known for many years. I was wondering how you had managed to get some and why you would be making a marking knife out of it, when you linked to the video on how to make it, and that video linked to this one. Love that you clarify what it actually means, reconciling the myth and reality.
+Silverphox13 "My knowledge of Damascus steel before this video was essentially; that it was steel made in ancient times using an unknown to this day method, and it was stronger by far than other methods known for many years." That is correct. Modern smiths are NOT able to replicate true Damascus steel. Microscopic examinations of the real thing shows characteristics that modern smiths are not able to replicate.
My feeling is that the most likely derivation is that 'Damascus' describes the pattern itself and was originally coined due to it's similarity to Damascus silk. If that is true, it doesn't really matter how that pattern was obtained because the term relates to the pattern not the steel.
I think woots should be called woots, or crucible Damascus and pattern welded should be called pattern welded, even though it’s what most of us think of when using the term “Damascus”
Damascus gun barrels should only be used with Black Powder and carefully checked for rust between the lamentations to make sure they wont split on you.
I would argue that the terms should be "Crucible steel" for wootz, and "pattern welded" for Damascus steel. The reason is simple. The other terms offer points of argument where as the ones I suggest, imply the way one processes said material. It's impossible to separate the name of the product from the process it has gone through to come into this world. there is no more room for confusion or question. It becomes a statement of only fact and not of implied history or mythology.
hey walter, you might want to look into the date of the translations you cited. Unless when you mentioned reading about the word Damascus in respect to thousands of years ago, you were reading original texts.
I've been told by one Russian: They, in the Central Asia were cooling "pulad" or "bulad" (damascus steel) in the very special way: A young assistant of blacksmith took hot to red blade and drive by horse through steppe until the air cool it down. Or, other way: To stick hot to red blade into a stomach of the strong and clever slave with, they believe, gave his power and soul to the blade. This second method was pretty cruel and.. eccentric. But this first one was quite normal. Of course, maybe it is only the legend, but who know?
Problems: the second doesn't result in a consistent cooling, is very expensive, is likely to break the blade on contact with bone, etc. clearly a myth. And the first is dangerous (hot steel, a pockmarked plain, and a horse), labor intensive, as well as nonsensical; you could just swing it around if you wanted the same effect, but in any case it would result in a steel that isn't at all hardened for use, but not really dead soft for further work either. Neither seem at all decent for anything, so I'd call them myths.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Great video Walter, and very well researched. I am a huge fan of your videos and work. I always understood damascus shotgun barrels to be dangerous when used with modern ammunition because of their ribbon like twisted construction (picture a cardboard paper towel tube) that was forged welded along its twisted seam.
Has anybody ever connected the movement of wootz steel with the movement of the Roma people out of India, into the middle east and then on to Europe? The Romani Gypsies were always well known as smiths and to me the timelines coincide.
I thought it was an alloy of iron, carbon and iridium. As the original indian steel was from a meteor that had had this mix of metals and later forged swords were reworked from previous swords. It was the low percentage iridium that caused the pattern.
Thanks for clearing that up mate. Very interesting and informative. As a metal sculptor but only a fan of (soon to try) blacksmithing, I was ignorant to what damascus steel really was and admit to thinking some of these modern techniques lacked authenticity but at the end of the day, if it looks good is what matters. If you can get the look from modern alchemy, go for it.
With all due respect Walter, you're wrong. I agree the term Damascus has become genericized for the general public and marketing purposes. For those actually involved in the production of steel there are still important and easy distinctions to be made. Specifically, calling a pattern welded steel "Damascus" is misleading and confusing, regardless of the steel's origins. True Damascus can only be produced via crucible, and is never twisted, layered, folded, etc. For anyone wanting to truly understand what Damascus was (and still can be for talented smiths) watch the Mike Loades special entitled "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel".
I seen somewhere one of the things that made Damascus steel Damascus steel originally was that it was quenched in a human body because of nitrogen or something. And later just used animal pelts. Is that wrong?
Y'know i've always wondered, who are the people who thumbs down videos? There's 52 on this video. I don't see any reason to dislike this particular video, its informative and concise. I've seen similar thumbs down on videos that you just can't possibly unlike, whether its cat videos or whatever. Do people just do it to be an ass hole? How is that satisfying for them, I don't get it, it kinda diminishes the meaning for when there is something that is genuine garbage posted.
+1 They are the same nut jobs who give unwarranted negative feedback on ebay. Seriously, those feedbacks seem to be generated on a piecework basis by patients on a psychiatric ward! It's really.uncanny.
Its just truly bizarre. What a lacking life the individual must have to do that in order to make themself feel better. Clearly a lot of people like that out there though given that a almost all videos (with majority of videos not warranting it) have thumbs down in some capacity
Whenever you deal with populations, you deal with the Bell Curve, otherwise known as the Normal Distribution Curve. So, you'll find that extremes on each tail end of the curve--those are the Outliers, which make up 5%. What's important is those who make up the 95% because that's where the normal distribution lies.
Domain specific terminology is (mostly) clear to those within the domain. Anyone arguing is showing themselves to be an outsider. I don't know Sorrells but his rant here agrees with Wikipedia about Pattern welding.
The vikings not only learned how to create crucible steel but also possibly used meteorite in its construction. The type of meteorite contained nickel iron alloys and created similar patterns seen in Wootz. I find it fascinating even if there is not substantial evidence to show that they indeed used meteorite and hope to create my own version one day.
Hey , i'm really hoping that you read the comments, and i apologize for the random unrelated topic, i was watching through your videos and i noticed you mentioned hollow grinding and sharpening , i figured id add my 2 cents on hollow grinding though i figure this isn't the right place. with hollow grinding you tend to make the "Blade" grind, by both the shape and wheel diameter, don't quote me on this, because i've not the specifics on hand, but say your steel is 4 mm thick (sorry but i am only familiar with metric ) then the wheel is say 47 cm in size , then your blade would need to be say 30 mm long at the most, it tends to be more formulaic than a flat grind you can all do other grinds on the edges also, although that is a different discussion, but to my knowledge , an abrasive soap on a buffing wheel can give an edge an "axe" grind, which is incredibly tough and sharp, but you can only sharpen it with that, you can also do a convex grind as well as concave for the edge, so yeah, hopefully interesting enough to read when you go through the comments. but yeah , very good video also, EDIT : buff like you would normally , downwards and so the edge doesnt catch, it will get sharp on its own , if it catches your blade you will get hurt, not for you , but for others that are amateurs
Hi Walter and Robert I’ve made knives for files but never with Damascus steel my question is if I buy a 1095 field it already has a Damascus pattern on it and make the knife will I lose the pattern .
BAM...and the bs is gone!!! :D I guess it's kind of impossible to find any kind of discussion thread where this issue doesn't come up as soon as anyone uses the term "Damascus" in relation to steel, tbh, I don't really have any kind of knowledge base, so I don't buy into those debates, and I have found it really confusing when people who seem to know more than I do argue quite contradictory viewpoints. So from that perspective I found this video REALLY helpful. I think my favorite thing about this whole series is that you manage to combine a really high level of knowledge and technical ability, with a really clear, articulate and easy to understand descriptive style, either one of those attributes is hard enough to find on it's own, to find both...well it's almost like having the clouds part and a divine spark of knowledge zapped straight into my brain. I can see this video is going to be used as a link to end these nonsensical and circular debates now, that's a public service IMHO.
very informative video. I've always been curious about (Damascus steel). Have always enjoyed your knowledge of steel. Thank you for the informational videos. Great video as usual.
Nicely said and thoroughly presented for both acceptable uses of the term. Especially the part about "refusing to accept pattern welded steel as Damascus isn't an expression of special knowledge but an expression of ignorance". If you are expert enough in the field of steel making and blade forging to know exactly what it is you are looking for, then you should be expert enough to describe it fully, accurately, and unambiguously instead of just saying "Damascus" and then getting pissy when you are presented the other kind of thing that can accurately and acceptably be described by that one word.
I don't know how you turn out quality videos about knife making at this rate but I love it.
Great vid, love how you go right to-the-point with the important info, and I appreciate the lack of filler content.
People want to ascribe a magical, mythical status to Damascus. We've all heard the legend about Damascus swords cutting through other swords and even rifle barrels. So if you claim that you've replicated Damascus, they're going to deny it because of confirmation bias. The fact is that Damascus was nothing more than a beautifully patterned, high quality steel in an age where metal working was roughly equivalent to sorcery.
Andrew Krause
Uhm no.. Damascus steel has nanotubules in it which provided the extreme strength and incredible flexibility of the swords. This has been scientifically proven already.
Sure, the results were fancy and beautiful, but there are plenty of fancy and beautiful pieces of craftsmanship from the Middle Eastern world you've never seen or heard about. You know this steel because the "legends" are true and not only were the swords a beautiful sight to behold but they were brutally practical.
You're kidding right. You do understand that carbon nanotubules are found everywhere in nature, and they don't necessarily imbue any special quality whatsoever to the material they're found in. They're found in the soot of chimneys. They're found in wootz. They're found in burnt steak. They're not special, and neither are damascus steel swords by modern standards. There are plenty of examples left, and they're well studied. I'd rather have a sword or knife made from O-1 tool steel any day of the week.
Andrew Krause
Im not kidding and its obvious you're uneducated on the subject and know absolutely nothing about what youre talking. Before you shoot your mouth off make sure your brains are loaded. The nanotubule structure of Damascus steel is what imbues it with its flexiblity alongside its durable strength. Try reading a bit more. news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061116-nanotech-swords.html
WalkingGhosts I'm going to point out that the article you shared says "may" and "might" as an explanation but does not say it is proven that it makes the sword special, only possibly.
Look around kid. You're surrounded by adults. Your pretentious speech coupled with you citing popular science websites doesn't impress anyone here. The article you linked to just happens to be the first article that comes up in a Google search for "damascus steel carbon nanotubes". If you had taken the time to read it, you'd realize that it actually contradicts a number of the claims you've made above, and fails to support anything you've said. Nobody with a clue is impressed by your web search scholarship.
Let me clue you in on something. Actual metallurgists (people who know what they're talking about, people not you) have already stated that carbon nanotubes (CNTs) have nothing to do with the rumored properties of damascus swords. Surviving examples of damascus swords with provenance to back up their claims of superior performance characteristics were chemically analyzed, and found to have high levels of impurities like Chromium, Vanadium, Phosphorous, Copper, Nickel and Silicon. These impurities are commonly used in modern steels to produce desired properties of hardness, flexibility, corrosion resistance and strength. And objective tests show that damascus steels made from wootz do not come anywhere near the performance level of modern knife steels like 1095, S30V, O-1, D-2, and so on.
Meanwhile, people who actually have a clue about CNTs know that while they have abnormally high tensile strength, their shear and compressive strength is relatively low. Adding CNTs to materials like concrete makes sense. Adding CNTs to materials like polyolefins makes sense. Adding CNTs to steels... not so much. CNT Metal Matrix Composites are not considered an avenue worth much R&D investment, which is why you don't hear about it.
Shooting your mouth off on the internet is all fun and games, just remember that people who actually know what they're talking about exist. And you're not one of them.
the city of damascus was the gate way of the silk road to euorpe as that time the europian tradesman were not allowed to travel in muslim land freely to india so they only place they had acsess to make purchase was the city of damascus it was like current country of hong kong free trade
Hello Walter. I'm from Damascus myself, back home we never used the term Damascus 'steel'. What you hear is always Damascus sword. Like you said, during that period the city was known for fine craftsmen, including swordsmiths. I think that's where the term really comes from. Europeans may have started using the term Damascus steel in reference to the material the swords are made from. It's correct and incorrect at the same time. Great video as always.
Adel Samara Read my comment again my friend. You said the same thing: "a technique of the Damasian sword" of which the folding of steel is a key part. It isn't about where the steel itself comes from, but rather how it's used to produce its unique qualities. Cheers
the term damascene steel refers to the very reknown velvet called damascene that was a asked after trading good, and had similiar patterns in the light as the steel
steels in the kind of damascene steel were known in europe since several centurys bc , and then were abondened in central and western europe in the middle ages since in europe better more homogeneous steels emerged when then water powered hammers helped makuing the worlds then best and most homogueneous steel by making it possible to forge large amounts of steel fastly as much as about 21 times, thereby eliminating the need for damascene steel as these had the tendency to delaminate in blade to blade contact if it was made low quality and there by monosteel was cheaperby the same quality and avaidable in shorter time
damascine meant a cloth with a set colour pattern on a background of same but lighter colour....the arabian scimitars had a similar pattern.
It was a way of making steel, and noboddy knows how they dit it. Sooooooooo, it's gone for ever
Mad Mazz I love where I live in Canada but man I would love to live somewhere with such a rich and old history such as Damascus!
Damascus steel is like Himalayan Sea Salt, you can get that pink salt from Poland too, but you aren't going to sell much of it calling it "Polish pit rock salt". Although people know it's wootz, if you market it as wootz, it's going to come back to you in the form of less sales.
It depends on who the target is. If someone marketed a knife to me as a "Damascus steel knife" I'd inquire whether it's Wootz or pattern-welded steel. I would fully expect the seller to recite an answer he doesn't understand himself, repeating that it's "Damascus steel" and not giving me any new information.
First of all its Himalayan salt is not sea salt. Himalayan salt comes from mines in pakistan.
The current batch of Damascus knife-makers displays amazing imagination and wonderful creativity in their work!
Thanks for the clarification, for a deep dive on Wootz I'd recommend: Alfred Pendray, Wootz Hunter.
Thanks for making all of these videos. Your UA-cam channel was the start and still is the fuel for my hobby of knife making. So again, thank you!
I had to pause the video and run to the store for popcorn before I came down to the comments section. 😂😂😂
"You will never ever be successful, until you turn your pain into greatness. Until you allow your pain to push you from where you are, to where you need to be. Stop running from your pain and embrace your pain." - Keep doing well good sir!
Totally agree here.
I dont know nearly as much as you or others about steel but in german too the word "Damaszener Stahl" (damascus steel) just means steel that is combined of different types of steel or iron and is forming a visible pattern regardless where it comes from.
If you want to be more precise just take a modern technical term like, folded, pattern welded, crucible steel or whatever.
"Fulaz" is actually the Arabic word for "steel", it's often adulterated into "bulad" around Syria and Lebanon, compare it to the "Bulat" name ;)
Rami Abi Akar Fulaz is deferent from steel is even deferent type of metal. Steel bends Fulaz will break . The Arabic word for steel is Hadeed.
@@asaadeh111 Hadeed = Iron, im arabic.
Timeout420 true , steel means معدن . Just missed that out.
@@asaadeh111 معدن is metal.
Im pretty confident Fulaaz is steel Sulb is steel aswell
About time some one got this point across, well done!
I've been telling people there was a massive amount of trade going on as far back as the stone age in Europe. Stones from Spain found in stone age sites in England. We (British) were importing lemons in to Britain in the 13 th century with a lot of other item from the middle east, including steel. A lot came from Damascus, because a lot of the major silk trade routs ended at Damascus as you right pointed out.
So it is not to hard to think that if a Blacksmith brought some steel from a merchant at some point in time and asked where it came from and was told "Damascus", then he would call it such.
But you tell some people this and ones words fall on deaf ears, I guess the old saying of: "There none so blind that will not see, or deaf that will not listen!"
Thank you for taking the time to make and post this video, long needed and well explained. Cheers! :)
If you were expecting crucible steel and get pattern welded steel...therein lies the rub.
Who doesn't love a good rant?So far, every one of your videos has been informative. Thanks.
Fantastic presentation! Highly accurate and non-biased and not withstanding much that isn't known to us, convincingly putting the myths and mysteries of this steel to sleep. Thank you Mr Sorrell, well researched.
Other than his name what did he get right? he was wrong about the steel and did nothing but repeat the mistakes of others.
Just love the way you put this Whole debate in perspective.
to bad he's wrong...
It was discovered that the Wootz Damascus steel had a small percentage of vanadium in it, and this is what caused the patterns on the blades. it was not layered steel at all. Researchers located an iron mine that had that particular ore of iron and vanadium in it - south of Damascus. They took ore from that very mine and created the wootz in a crucible and sure enough the same pattern of the ancient "Damascus" steel was made.
Thanks very much , Walter. After having read time and again that the art of making "true Damascus steel" is as lost to time as the libraries of Alexandria, (and admittedly, although I've left no derogatory comments on any knife makers videos when they claim to be making a 'Damascus steel' blade) I must confess my arrogance and judgement toward them as I truly believed that they were trying to sell a beautiful, yet falsely labeled product for their own gains. Not unlike removing a Honda emblem from your motorcycle and replacing it with a Harley decal. I now think I understand more of what the definition of Damascus Steel is.
I myself have very little experience in the way of knife making, short of making a few soft blades from half-hard stainless sheet metal, shaping it with a band saw, sharpening it with hand files, sanding with 180, 240, 500, 800, then 1200 grit sand paper, then drilling, shaping, and peening them together using aircraft rivets to affix exotic wood stock handles from scrap wood in my workplace (I work in Papua New Guinea, cool wood there to work with) and just giving the knives to the locals who have no pocket knives. They are always quite pleased with the end result, but I've never attempted any sort of hardening, quenching, or heat treatment.
Watching your videos, I'd like very much to either buy or build a forge, good hammer, anvil, and see what I'm capable of. I think once I have some room in the garage, I'd like see what I can do.
I apologize for the length of this comment, but if I may ask, after I begin (very humbly, of course) with something as simple as a paring knife, would you be so kind as to look at some pictures or videos I could send your way? I believe that people can learn from the mistakes of others, so in the hope of educating others, I'd be honoured for you to use my failed or substandard knives in your videos as "how not to" or "this is Matt's first forged knife, see how he is shaping it wrong, not getting it hot enough, striking the wrong way... ect."
In short, I'm happy to be the guy who's mistakes can teach other, all I want in return is for you to tell me what I'm doing wrong, so that I may improve.
If you get a chance to read this, please let me know what you think of the idea.
Matt Pollock
Aircraft Mechanic
I had been very confused about this term for quite some time and I really appreciated how thorough, but at the same time considering the amount of information you covered, how to the point you were. Great video!
Mr Sorrels, have you ever done a video about how to start and setup a forge, and what basic tools you would need to get started. I remember you talking about your first projects were making your own special tools, what was your forge like?
Well unfortunately I accidently deleted my comment. ugh. To sum it up I wish I could hit the like button about a hundred more times. The people who haven't even attempted to make a blade or even have the intention to do so, quit telling the craftsmen that make damascus as well as MAKE WOOTZ after many years of study and labor that they are completely wrong and stupid when they use the word damascus when refering to "pattern welded steel".
I have to say so far this is one of the best in depth videos explaining the steel and why it’s named that.
thanks for clearing that up. i love that you mentioned wootz, which is the real 'damascus' steel. [referring to the blade qualities, outstanding limits, and grain pattern.] most people associate damascus with this super blade, but it was southern india (kerala) who mastered its production, and get little credit today.
wootz is the type of steel used to make damascus. only when you get the correct molecular structure is it called a genuine damascus blade.
Future Historical Findings in year 3015:
"The Flaming War of Damascus Steel. This War took place in the early 2010's. As the name suggests, this era was named as such for the way they handled disputes with Damascus Steel swords doused in flames. If anyone dared disagree, a duel of Flaming Damascus Steel swords were used until a victor emerged and the other slain, therefore no one disagreed with the winner as all those whom had disagreed were fallen. That is until the next challenger fells the previous victor and therefore the dispute shifted to the new champion's opinion alignment."
Thanks for that Walter next time i get criticized for calling a blade damascus Ill point them to this video.
Great video and plenty of accurate information in it. Think its best to use the terms "historic" and "modern" to describe the two methods.The term "Damascus Steel" carried over into Europe only because Damascus was a major trading hub and a manufacturing center so it became a branding for the steel and such blades at that time. Later when the modern patterned steel emerged, the term remained because it was unknown that these were produced by a different method.
The historic Damascus method of producing patterns in the blades is indeed quite different and its because of the metallurgic properties of wootz steel. Wootz is a high carbon, crucible steel alloy with impurities in it. The most significant ones were phosphorus and vanadium but also manganese. Phosphorus made forging problematic at higher temperatures so it was worked with at lower temperatures where the presence of vanadium or manganese favored the formation of carbides which then came out as patterns in the finished blades.
The Blacksmiths of the Middle East and Central Asia, Persia etc. simply honed and refined their methods to consistently produce patterned blades from a single block of wootz, rather then through combination of different steels. However, the combination method is much more economical and efficient, hence an easier and faster production of good quality patterned blades was possible. So the historic method was forgotten over time.
Conclusion: the historic Damascus method is the true and original method of patterning simply because the steel differs in its metallurgic structure and having different properties compared to high temperature hardening of layered steel. However, this fact becomes irrelevant to us now because our knowledge of the metallurgy of steels goes much further beyond. So it is not a matter of quality of the finished blade for us, but it rather becomes one of style.
Hence:
Patterns in the steel= Damascus
Historic Damascus= single steel + carbides
Modern Damascus= combination of steels
Shhhyeah! +Batonix80 Nice one. Good explantion. That video rocked too. I have been aware of this discrepency but never had a stable enough knowledge base to put it into words. Also, i don't give a hoot. Like you said, our steel skills are way more boss now then backin the day. Throw up some references if you get a chance. I'd loke to read 'em.
YOu apparently don't care about the quality of the sword, just the look of it? Sorry but i have to disagree. The name became famous due to the quality of the swords, not the pretty face which can be done even more pretty by engraving and other methods commonly used in the west. One should strive to duplicate the sword, not the looks of it. We are too much into the artificial now and seem to have lost the substance of not only the Damascus blades.
Loke. Haha. Learn how to sepll frist.@@fullsun1651
There was 0 accurate information, just re-quoiting 150 year old mistakes.
@Blacktimus Prime I always love those who make the statement like "My grandpappy said this so its good enough for me." Lots of people though the world was flat, doesn't make it so. you have been lead to water.... no need to reply, I won't respond. Pearls before swine and such.
It is good to run across someone that has studied and researched these two phrases. I have found that "Pretty Wootz" is a far superior steel over a "not pretty wootz" or "Pattern Damascus Steel"! And they hold their edge for ever...…..
Great video, I enjoy the fact this guy speaks clear concise slow and isn’t racing through the information..heck it’s a video where I can honestly say I can recall just about everything he said.. dude needs to be an instructor, teacher whatever, as the number one complaint I’ve always had and all of my kids and many friends had is teachers race through the info too quick, I’m guessing its due to the fact they been over it thousand times before a new student reaches their doorway and they simply expect others to keep up…anyway again great video..
Finally, someone making Damascus claims that has actually done the research. Thank you sir, and keep up the good work!
Umm what? no research or facts here just repeats 200 year old mistakes.
Respect my man, you really know your stuff. Good to come across a genuine expert.
Back in the 1970s while I attended a welding school I bought a book about metallurgy and it carried a fascinating section on the ancient Damascus steel and the fact some folks were trying to reproduce it. They were combing through what accounts could be found by explorers who'd been to Damascus and seen parts of the process. They were, understandably, keeping what they found out to themselves. About all the book seemed to have was that the process included forge welding wrought iron to some sort of steel and folding it, and a hardening process which included heating the blade up to critical temperature and quenching it in camel dung (Primitive carburizing perhaps?). I was intrigued and wanted to figure out how it was done. It was also about that time I made my first knife blade out of tungsten steel from a broken blade with a walnut handle.
A couple of years later I bought a copy of an outdoor sporting magazine and saw an article in it that a knifemaker had figured it out and was making Damascus knives. I like to think the name was Carter, but don't hold me to it since it's been so long. I kind of quit thinking about it then.
Based on what you said, Mr. Sorrells, (I have a son-in-law by that name) I can't help but wonder if the process of making those old blades was similar to that of the Katanas in that a softer steel or iron core was wrapped with an envelope of the Woot steel to make those old blades. My guess is that somebody would have to make a good examination of a genuine Damascus blade from the period and I don't see anybody giving over one of those valuable blades for that unless our new radiological or sonographic techniques are good enough to do that without destroying any part of the blade. If it's already been done I would be interested in the results if you know about them
Good video, i think the modern definition should be used since it is the standard for the market. The ancient is more of a historical note..
Don't think snow would stick on that
Excellent discourse! Letting some light and air into this subject is most refreshing.
Hey thanks +WalterSorrells! An excellent video as always! I'm glad you did this one.
Thanks you very much Walter. I will no longer try to explain this to people. I will simply point them to this video, well done Sir!
Walter I find your level of knowledge incredible. I learn something every time I watch one of your videos.
Thank you.
I have a dog with brain damage, its level of knowledge exceeds this morons by and order of magnitude.
So i'm aware that this video is a few years old, but I thought that it might be useful to hear this. 1: love the videos. 2: The vikings actually forge welded iron and steel to make swords that had introcate patters and markings, this was done by twisting, pulling, and folding the steel iron mix upon itself. After shaping they then used acid to make the pattern show.
I'm trying to get into the metal trade, and I've been welding for a few years now so these videos are extremely entertaining; thank you for the wisdom sir!
Gonna hit that subscribe button~
thanks so much for concisely clearing that years old debate up
I was hoping this video would show us how to spot folded damascus and steel with cheap look-alike steel, e.g. laser etched. You see these knives on amazon for $30 that say things like vg-10 damascus steel which seems really impossible to be true. Just as an example, go to amazon and search for Kubey Damascus Stel Folding Knife and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about
Good video. Im not a big steel buff but found this to be very informative and entertaining. Thanks for your time.
Yeah, you are kinda right, but I still want to whine about it! LOLZ! Turns out they found out that the presence of transition elements allowed the carbon to form nanotubes in the steel. So get you some transition elements, and clay crucible and see if you can copy it!
Well in Poland we had 2 words
Damascus - pattern welded steel
Bułat - crucible steel (east source)
About time consumed in forging - 1,2 kg cake can take up to 8 - 12 hours of forging to get a flat bar (10 mm x 30 mm x 400) And it needs to be mostly done by hand (cake is prone to cracking)
I got no experience with pattern welding but forging from cake to 3 knife blanks, griding, hardening, final polishing and eching can take up to over a week of work. Of course cake can crack in early and material is wasted :(
Next thing is "pattern"
I think that in acient times wavy pattern was a symbol of high carbon steel used to forge a blade. Normal blades from bloomery iron didnt have such pattern. Difference was simple - there is wavy pattern - "good blade".
Nice film, I'm fan of your work.
As wootz wasn't always so plainly patterned and very widespread at some points I wonder if it's best to refer to it not as Damascus steel but Damascus pattern. Regardless of whether it's crucible/wootz or pattern welded.
I didn't knew about "Damascus steel" until recently. I knew however about "Damascus swords" and I think thats the origin of the name. As many of us know, many time the words "sword" or "blade" or even "knife", was replaced with the word "steel". Having "steel" meant to carry a blade. So, historically, the description "Damascus sword" might have transformed into "Damascus steel" - which basically means the same thing.
Mr. Sorrells my son and I are trying to figure out how to make feather damascus steel.Are you able to help with some directions on getting the pattern right? We're newbies so any advise will help.Thanks for the great videos,it's something my son and I do together now.
Damascus was a place where various pattern welded swords and knives were traded just like today , but no different to hundreds of other trading places of the time.
Nice video bro. This info (which incidentally I completely agree with) is something I've been aware of for a number of years now. I love it when someone takes a truly unambiguous approach to a much debated topic and as you yourself said, "put it to bed". Hopefully this video get seen by many - particularly those folk who're so invested in the massive conjecture that has clouded the point and made this such an emotional yet essentially pointless topic for argument...
the damascus steeel i read about in school was rusted and polished over and over and said to last. so there has to be sword in a museum to show example. to where it was forged. how it was made.
Back in the 1960s. I was taught in school that Damascus steel was two or more pieces of steel forge welded together. What I was taught was more towards the manufacturing of a Damascus steel barrel. Where the Black Smith or barrel manufacturer would wrap red hot steel around a mandrill. Then hammer forge the steel, welding the steel together.
I was also taught that you should never fire a Damascus Steel barrel on any firearm. This was because the black powder used is extremely corrosive and may have weakened the forge welds.
Maybe I am wrong. But that's what I learned in school.
Just to give you an idea how out of touch I am, I had no idea there was an argument about damascus steal, however the idea about contact with swordsmiths from Damascus makes a lot of common sense. Thumbs up Mr Sorrells.
I'm not sure if its intentional or not, but he also makes a good argument about using the net as a source for research is really not the best way to go, and explains why there are people making pseudo arguments about damascus steal
Good job. I have always thought that there has been way too much vitriol as to what the word Damascus means in regard to steel. Crucible vs pattern welded; both are testimony to human ingenuity.
Mr. Sorrells thank you for your explanation on your video, however, putting all that a side, I remember when my Grand Father, (from Lebanon) worked fixing guns for the police, and army, making knives, and taught me how to melt steel add carbon, and other elements teaching me to make the same material that he used, from there a continued making different patterns of what we know by what ever we like to call it. Really I don’t care how it is call, but I can say the designs taught by my GRAND FATHER, are nice and very strong. I like what I produce and I thanks him for passing alone all he new, thank you and have a good day.
I'm not into knife making but I can imagine fan boys of it would get really uptight debating this subject. Nice knowledge 👍
Thanx for the vid I've had this argument a few times lol I'm a newby knife maker of the stock removal type & I have found your vids most helpful 😎
The manufacturing of wootz steel, dates from middle Chola period[early 11th century] of Tamil region from South India, also many deadliest weapons such as maan kombu [horn of blackbuck]'valari[sharp iron edged boomerang]kattari[katar],Kuttu katai[ spiked knuckleduster ],surul pattai [flexible sword]Sedikuchi[ cudgel or short stick, often wielded as a pair.],etc.... and many martial arts such as silambam[staff fighting], kuthu varisai[Karate is believed to be derived from this art form]varma kalai[deadliest and vigourous form of martial art,, much older than kung fu] etc....
Damascus steel isn't wootz steel
Blah blah blah
Damascus was at the western end if the "Silk road", along which the high carbon steel was traded in Medieval times in ingot or "pudding" form. The smiths in Damascus learned (or were taught by smiths from India) how to work the ingots without destroying the crystalline structure. They kept this a closely guarded secret, thus ensuring a monopoly on high quality "Damascus" steel swords and they received a premium price for their product. Because the swords were only available there they were called Damascene swords. There was no confusion or deceit in the term.
Great explanation. You're a great teacher; you explain very clearly. Thanks very much.
I recently watched a youtube video by an American Smith who had worked out how to reproduce Wootz Damascus
using the crucible method. He got the attention of a US steel maker (can't remember any of the names). They had a metallurgist work with him to see how he was doing it. Two guys from Jordan in the Middle East found out about it
and made contact and came over bringing with them Iron Ore from a mine once owned by Saladin ( spelled wrongly for sure). This I believe is were the legend of the Damascus Swords comes from. Incidentally the two Jordanians were saying no one has successfully made Wootz Damascus since about 1670 and according to them can only be made from ore from this mine. Saladin was so convinced of the worth of this ore he built a castle fortification on a hill near by and stationed a garasion there to protect it. The American Smith did indeed manufacture wootz from the ore brought to him from Jordan. has has since passed away but I believe the steel maker has what they need to reproduce Wootz with ore from elsewhere now. Anyway enough of my ramblings I have found the name of the youtube clip. The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel check it for your self.
I like your videos, very informative, the one about steel hardening was explaining metallurgy stuff like no other on youtube, excellent. Thanks from a knife enthusiast!
It is the same like the Arabic Numerals. It originated in India but was transferred to Europe via the Arabs so it became Arabic Numerals. Wootz steel was made in India and became know to the European via Arabia during the Crusades hence the name Damascus steel.
Damascus was also famous for being a trade centre on the western end of the Silk Route - and not only of steel weapons but also of cloth including - ta da! - "Damask" cloth (first recorded in C14th France). It is a fundamental weaving process with patterns in the cloth. Funnily enough not that different from pattern welded steel...see where I'm going with this? Both likely came back to western Europe due to the Crusades.
Nice job dropping some knowledge on the internet know-it-all warriors, Walter. It's pretty annoying when people try to call out professionals, especially with crap facts, using the anonymity of the internet as their shield.
Yawned so hard I fell off my chair. !!!!
I was told by a sword smith that "Damascus" ingots were manufactured in India and smithed in Syria. The ingots formed were similar to japanese tamahagane.
Very informative as always. Thanks for taking the time to impart your knowledge and research on those of us who are only casually acquainted with knifemaking!
Damascus (From Dimasqu) Paisley (town in West Scotland), Nike(Greek goddess of victory), Mercedes (named after Mercédès Jellinek). The names all stands for something that has little to do with where the name original came from. In language it happens all the time. For instance MJ changed the meaning of BAD forever worldwide. As long as we agree what a word means we are using it correctly no matter what it's origin.
it's absolutely correct to say that pattern welded and forged Wootz steels have been referred to equally as "Damascus steel" since at least the 12th century and you could equally use the same term for the high quality steels used by the Vikings and others before then, but I think the real controversy centres around the fact that there are now many people selling blades made by creating very simple, quick and cheap to forge, pattern welded steels, using highly dissimilar raw materials, involving very few layers, which when twisted only a couple of turns produce a highly visible, ornamental pattern, but are wholly unsuitable as blade steels where edge hardness, edge retention and blade integrity are concerned and would undoubtably fail firearms proofing tests at the same sort of thickness used by the likes of Purdey and other gunsmiths.This kind of unscrupulous behaviour cheapens the value of consciensciously crafted steels, which are far harder, more expensive and time consuming to make and by short-cutting the lamination process, using unsuitable grades of raw steel, the fact that they aren't made according to the original principles, age old skill refinement and constant attention to suitability for the specific purpose for which its being made, means that labelling them "Damascus steels" is no different to labelling a crumpled paper towel "Origami" and I'm certain that no right minded person would consider that correctSo in my own personal opinion, using the term "Damascus steel" to describe the very pretty, but useless ornamental pattern welded items being thrown out piecemeal by many people and certainly 90% of the rubbish blades currently coming out of the Indian sub-continent and much of South East Asia is at best misguided and at worst completely misleading and for that reason alone I believe words like "fake" and "imitation" are well used.
Clive Loosley - I think your simple, yet insightful, comments sums it all up very well in a lot less than 13:07.
My knowledge of Damascus steel before this video was essentially; that it was steel made in ancient times using an unknown to this day method, and it was stronger by far than other methods known for many years. I was wondering how you had managed to get some and why you would be making a marking knife out of it, when you linked to the video on how to make it, and that video linked to this one. Love that you clarify what it actually means, reconciling the myth and reality.
+Silverphox13
"My knowledge of Damascus steel before this video was essentially; that it was steel made in ancient times using an unknown to this day method, and it was stronger by far than other methods known for many years."
That is correct. Modern smiths are NOT able to replicate true Damascus steel. Microscopic examinations of the real thing shows characteristics that modern smiths are not able to replicate.
This is the final word, hands down, no further debate.
My feeling is that the most likely derivation is that 'Damascus' describes the pattern itself and was originally coined due to it's similarity to Damascus silk. If that is true, it doesn't really matter how that pattern was obtained because the term relates to the pattern not the steel.
I don't make knives, but I love your videos man. Not even sure how I got here....
I've always wondered about this very thing. Thanks for clearing that up.
he didn,t clear anything up, all he did was repeat the ignorant comments of others.
I think woots should be called woots, or crucible Damascus and pattern welded should be called pattern welded, even though it’s what most of us think of when using the term “Damascus”
Damascus gun barrels should only be used with Black Powder and carefully checked for rust between the lamentations to make sure they wont split on you.
I would argue that the terms should be "Crucible steel" for wootz, and "pattern welded" for Damascus steel. The reason is simple. The other terms offer points of argument where as the ones I suggest, imply the way one processes said material. It's impossible to separate the name of the product from the process it has gone through to come into this world. there is no more room for confusion or question. It becomes a statement of only fact and not of implied history or mythology.
hey walter, you might want to look into the date of the translations you cited. Unless when you mentioned reading about the word Damascus in respect to thousands of years ago, you were reading original texts.
Hell I've been told that words don't HAVE meanings...they have usages. Those change over time as you said.
Word absolutely have meaning it’s just ppl use the improper words most of the time
I've been told by one Russian: They, in the Central Asia were cooling "pulad" or "bulad" (damascus steel) in the very special way: A young assistant of blacksmith took hot to red blade and drive by horse through steppe until the air cool it down. Or, other way: To stick hot to red blade into a stomach of the strong and clever slave with, they believe, gave his power and soul to the blade. This second method was pretty cruel and.. eccentric. But this first one was quite normal. Of course, maybe it is only the legend, but who know?
Problems: the second doesn't result in a consistent cooling, is very expensive, is likely to break the blade on contact with bone, etc. clearly a myth.
And the first is dangerous (hot steel, a pockmarked plain, and a horse), labor intensive, as well as nonsensical; you could just swing it around if you wanted the same effect, but in any case it would result in a steel that isn't at all hardened for use, but not really dead soft for further work either.
Neither seem at all decent for anything, so I'd call them myths.
Haven't heard pedantic used in a sentence for quite a while, love it! Great explanation.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Great video Walter, and very well researched. I am a huge fan of your videos and work. I always understood damascus shotgun barrels to be dangerous when used with modern ammunition because of their ribbon like twisted construction (picture a cardboard paper towel tube) that was forged welded along its twisted seam.
Amen Walter! Thanks for a well thought out rant.
Has anybody ever connected the movement of wootz steel with the movement of the Roma people out of India, into the middle east and then on to Europe? The Romani Gypsies were always well known as smiths and to me the timelines coincide.
I thought it was an alloy of iron, carbon and iridium. As the original indian steel was from a meteor that had had this mix of metals and later forged swords were reworked from previous swords. It was the low percentage iridium that caused the pattern.
Thanks for clearing that up mate. Very interesting and informative. As a metal sculptor but only a fan of (soon to try) blacksmithing, I was ignorant to what damascus steel really was and admit to thinking some of these modern techniques lacked authenticity but at the end of the day, if it looks good is what matters. If you can get the look from modern alchemy, go for it.
With all due respect Walter, you're wrong. I agree the term Damascus has become genericized for the general public and marketing purposes. For those actually involved in the production of steel there are still important and easy distinctions to be made. Specifically, calling a pattern welded steel "Damascus" is misleading and confusing, regardless of the steel's origins. True Damascus can only be produced via crucible, and is never twisted, layered, folded, etc.
For anyone wanting to truly understand what Damascus was (and still can be for talented smiths) watch the Mike Loades special entitled "The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel".
I seen somewhere one of the things that made Damascus steel Damascus steel originally was that it was quenched in a human body because of nitrogen or something. And later just used animal pelts. Is that wrong?
Y'know i've always wondered, who are the people who thumbs down videos? There's 52 on this video. I don't see any reason to dislike this particular video, its informative and concise.
I've seen similar thumbs down on videos that you just can't possibly unlike, whether its cat videos or whatever. Do people just do it to be an ass hole? How is that satisfying for them, I don't get it, it kinda diminishes the meaning for when there is something that is genuine garbage posted.
+1
They are the same nut jobs who give unwarranted negative feedback on ebay. Seriously, those feedbacks seem to be generated on a piecework basis by patients on a psychiatric ward! It's really.uncanny.
Its just truly bizarre. What a lacking life the individual must have to do that in order to make themself feel better. Clearly a lot of people like that out there though given that a almost all videos (with majority of videos not warranting it) have thumbs down in some capacity
Whenever you deal with populations, you deal with the Bell Curve, otherwise known as the Normal Distribution Curve. So, you'll find that extremes on each tail end of the curve--those are the Outliers, which make up 5%. What's important is those who make up the 95% because that's where the normal distribution lies.
I was literally just thinking the exact same thing!!
those who thumbs down are idiots who know nothing about smithing and are not interested about learning they just want to see a guy forge a knife.
Thank you for the information. I admit I am ignorant to knife making and forging but this is a very informative video.
And he was totally wrong...
Domain specific terminology is (mostly) clear to those within the domain. Anyone arguing is showing themselves to be an outsider. I don't know Sorrells but his rant here agrees with Wikipedia about Pattern welding.
The vikings not only learned how to create crucible steel but also possibly used meteorite in its construction. The type of meteorite contained nickel iron alloys and created similar patterns seen in Wootz. I find it fascinating even if there is not substantial evidence to show that they indeed used meteorite and hope to create my own version one day.
I like this man’s words. Hard to beat the truth and also hard to put the brakes on ignorance.
Hey , i'm really hoping that you read the comments, and i apologize for the random unrelated topic, i was watching through your videos and i noticed you mentioned hollow grinding and sharpening , i figured id add my 2 cents on hollow grinding though i figure this isn't the right place. with hollow grinding you tend to make the "Blade" grind, by both the shape and wheel diameter, don't quote me on this, because i've not the specifics on hand, but say your steel is 4 mm thick (sorry but i am only familiar with metric ) then the wheel is say 47 cm in size , then your blade would need to be say 30 mm long at the most, it tends to be more formulaic than a flat grind you can all do other grinds on the edges also, although that is a different discussion, but to my knowledge , an abrasive soap on a buffing wheel can give an edge an "axe" grind, which is incredibly tough and sharp, but you can only sharpen it with that, you can also do a convex grind as well as concave for the edge, so yeah, hopefully interesting enough to read when you go through the comments. but yeah , very good video also, EDIT : buff like you would normally , downwards and so the edge doesnt catch, it will get sharp on its own , if it catches your blade you will get hurt, not for you , but for others that are amateurs
Hi Walter and Robert I’ve made knives for files but never with Damascus steel my question is if I buy a 1095 field it already has a Damascus pattern on it and make the knife will I lose the pattern .
BAM...and the bs is gone!!! :D
I guess it's kind of impossible to find any kind of discussion thread where this issue doesn't come up as soon as anyone uses the term "Damascus" in relation to steel, tbh, I don't really have any kind of knowledge base, so I don't buy into those debates, and I have found it really confusing when people who seem to know more than I do argue quite contradictory viewpoints.
So from that perspective I found this video REALLY helpful.
I think my favorite thing about this whole series is that you manage to combine a really high level of knowledge and technical ability, with a really clear, articulate and easy to understand descriptive style, either one of those attributes is hard enough to find on it's own, to find both...well it's almost like having the clouds part and a divine spark of knowledge zapped straight into my brain.
I can see this video is going to be used as a link to end these nonsensical and circular debates now, that's a public service IMHO.
very informative video. I've always been curious about (Damascus steel). Have always enjoyed your knowledge of steel. Thank you for the informational videos. Great video as usual.
Thanks Walter, that was very informative and entertaining.. Keep up the good work!
Good Video. Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for this explanation, very informative and well thought out.
Nicely said and thoroughly presented for both acceptable uses of the term. Especially the part about "refusing to accept pattern welded steel as Damascus isn't an expression of special knowledge but an expression of ignorance". If you are expert enough in the field of steel making and blade forging to know exactly what it is you are looking for, then you should be expert enough to describe it fully, accurately, and unambiguously instead of just saying "Damascus" and then getting pissy when you are presented the other kind of thing that can accurately and acceptably be described by that one word.