Well, I have to say, very well done, my good sir. To take a 20 minute video to do what was horrendously taught in Bible College and Seminary, absolutely brilliant. This is the best encapsulation of what the New Testament teaches concerning ordination for women. I will be using your argumentation and teaching points on this. This is excellent. Thank you for sharing this with us. Blessings from Canada.
That same NT also clearly outlines women's role in the church outside of the pulpit and in our communities and in the home. Partial truths are false idols just the same.
I have looked in God's Word, and I cannot find anything that suggests that God desires to see any woman become a pastor, priest, rabbi, or a leader of any body of followers of Christ. It simply is not there. So, the ordination of women is a modern accommodation due to social pressures which is not of God, but of Man.
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest women should be obliged to go to Church either. Yet the Catholic Church says women are obliged to go to Mass or thry commit a mortal sin.
Mike Winger is a Calvary Chapel pastor that has done a multi-part series on this. He wanted when he started to be on the side of women pastors, but after doing the study he was convinced that God does not want women to be pastors. Even though he is not LCMS, it is worth a look.
Mike’s series is long (13 parts, 40 hours) but he is very thorough and always scriptural. On this particular matter, the ordination of women, I recommend going to Mike Winger’s concluding video and watching the second point of his three fundamental arguments. It covers this and only runs for 15 minutes. (There are time stamps in the comments.) If anyone the wants to hear the details, they can go back and watch the relevant parts.
God bless you. Do you have a church community to belong to at the moment? Do you need any pastoral support from an Australian Lutheran Pastor who tunes into this channel presumably for the same reasons you do?
@@jhearer6515 I am part of a group desiring to make sure no beloved child of God who is conscience-bound on this topic will go unnoticed and uncared for now and in the wake of the upcoming LCANZ Synod decision. If you are in a supportive environment - God be praised. If not and you want more clarification I can provide this privately.
@@chrisraatz6672My conscience prompted me to leave already and, praise God, I have found a new Lutheran church home that is confessional and orthodox.
No kidding. I am an Australian Christian. And I came to the historic orthodox Christian Faith (Lutheran Confessions) against the stream. In former years I was caught up in Chiliasm In a Baptist sect. There were other woeful influences such as certain elements of Calvinism woven into that type of sect. But as to the Lutheran Church of Australia (LCA), I could never be part of such a woefully apostate church. It was founded upon unscriptural grounds already in 1966 out of the formerly conservative ELCA and the liberal UELCA. And the so called "Theses of Agreement" was a deliberate document which undermined the Doctrine of Church Fellowship which both Missouri and the old ELSA / ELCA used to hold (See online: The Brief Statement - 1932). So I see the true treasures of Lutheran doctrine as summarised in the Lutheran Confessions. And we rightly celebrate the great Lutherans of the past. BUT WHERE ARE THE GREAT LUTHERANS OF TODAY ? So we must follow Christ and not men. These things are not rocket science. It falls into the kindergarten doctrines of Holy Scripture and we ought to be very firm about these things, draw a line in the sand and take a stand. Be a confessional Lutheran
This is an especially good presentation because Pastor Wolfmueller displays the loving attitude we should all strive for when discussing theological concepts with people who are directly opposed to our Biblical worldview and want to be their own god instead of submitting and serving the one true God.
Great video on an interesting topic. Especially enjoy your understanding of “submission” and how it also correlates with Titus 2:3-5. Very well done sir. Loved your presentation this year at the conference in Chicago
I think the best argument against their push for it being a cultural issue gets deflated immediately because Paul takes us all the way back to Genesis three in the garden of Eden. End of story. Satan hates God‘s order, sinful man does not like God to be in charge and to tell them what’s right and what’s wrong this is just another example of that God’s economy is right and perfect. We are reaping what we have sown in our culture as a result of turning our backs against God‘s ways.
Fitting timing! My wife and I have been wrestling with this question the last few months, and just decided to move away from our Nazarene denomination church, and more towards an LCMS confessional Lutheran church body. Not many options here in this southern Baptist Bible Belt we live in so already have plans to move to Saint Louis! Thanks Bryan.
If you can’t find LCMS, the AALC is in fellowship. We are almost identical but slightly more conservative on some issues while slightly less on issues revolving around remote churches as regards to online see for people like me that don’t have a faithful Lutheran church within a two hour radius… especially in areas like mine where we stock up 3 months of food for when the snow is measured in feet and sometimes have to dig our way out of the front door.
@@nemoexnuqual3643 Thank you! Yep have looked for AALC around too. And Pastor Chris Rosebrough and Jordan Cooper who are AALC, have been flowing their ministry as well.
@@MetsudahProductions182 both are fantastic. AALC is small though. Pastor Chris’s church (Kongsvinger Lutheran) has a contact email and he not only got back to me with a video call to answer my questions but also took the time to help my brother in law to find a good local LCMS church. He is a busy guy so give him a couple weeks to get back to you. You can get ahead of the game by reading the small catechism which is basically a short form version of what and how we believe. God’s peace
I hear you, brother. I left the Nazarene church in 2012 (Dan Bohi was being pushed by the pastor) and through a careful re-examination of our theology we converted to Lutheranism.
… why is it still a Q in Australia? Coz the LCANZ president (Steicke) declared (unilaterally ?) it an open question or rather that the synod should thoroughly look at it (probably given the current world scene at that time - 1980’s ) - despite already having the confessional Lutheran position clearly stated in its Theses of Agreement (TA). These Theses were part of the process of theological discussion & clarification for the union of the 2 main Lutheran church bodies in 1966. They began this process in the 1930’s & were essentially done in the 1950’s, but procrastinated a further 10 years doing nothing much (my agricultural viewpoint). A major effort for the European based UELCA (Hebart, Lohe etc) & the Missouri synod based ELCA (Hamann, Graebner etc), the TA are a confessional Lutheran piece reflecting the hand (?) or at least the influence of Herman Sasse, who taught at the Immanuel Seminary (UELCA) in Adelaide. Pastors’ Conferences have reflected the struggle of the church to maintain the high view of Scripture and to provide clear teaching given the sexual revolution of the ‘60’s & all the resultant bioethical issues that have flowed on since then. In short, people have not been taught to appreciate & understand confessional Lutheran theology as they live the faith in the typical western TV culture in those decades before & after union. WO has dragged on now for 40 years basically, unable to achieve the two thirds majority to rescind the particular thesis that prohibits the ordaining of women, though in no way impeding their spiritual rights given in Baptism. Presidents, who were responsible for upholding the teaching of the church, and who basically did, have now been replaced by Bishops who in these last forty years, have not defended the teaching of the church as given at union, and help raise the theological literacy of the priesthood of all believers, enabling their fluency rigour, and allowed this parlous situation to fester unabated, kicking the ball further into the future under all sorts of guises like consensus, social rights, relevancy for mission, etc etc. So now earnest discussions & prayers & effort are being undertaken so the liberal parishes can achieve their worldly & logical solution of one church with 2 practices. Reason here is being used in its magisterial role to achieve a ministerial outcome. This is not good theology, and it will result in a troubled, problematic and fuzzy ecclesiology.
Well done. A correct interpretation and proper application of God's word. We all submit to some sort of authority. And when we step outside of that authority we either are corrected, or suffer the consequences.
Pastor Wolfmueller. Another great video. There is one application of this text which I would appreciate you addressing, especially for all your listeners in the LCMS. That is issuing of the Divine Call through the congregation from Christ. You read Paul’s use of the word “authority.” He does not specifically use the word “pastor”. He forbids women to have authority over men in the church. Here’s question #5: women who participate in voting on who the congregation calls as its pastor, are they not exercising authority over that man in the Divine Call? As an LCMS pastor I have always taught such is the case. And up until the convention in 1969, the LCMS taught the same. For your LCMS listeners, I would greatly appreciate your speaking to this issue, even though I know it is a painful topic for many. Thanks. The LORD be with you.
I don't understand why some women feel the need to be ordained ministers. It feels wrong to me. I am helping my husband to learn more about God through guidance in studying scriptures. I have more understanding of scripture than he does because I study the Bible every day. When he hears about what the scriptures teach us, I know that it is not my teaching, but it is God's teaching through His word. His word is LAW. Questioning it is blasphemy.
When I do not like what it says it means I am as dumb as a worm and need to study more. Second I count on my Golden Rule. God is always right. Therefore, need to learn more. Repent and learn more. Praise The Lord!
The explanation I have heard for the 1 Corinthians passage cited here is that Paul is silencing disorderly speaking, and uses the same word (sigaō) to silence those speaking in tongues without someone to interpret in verse 28, and prophesying if someone receives a revelation in verse 30. And so then the explanation continues that in verse 34-35, Paul is silencing the women who were asking too many basic questions and contributing to disorder in the service. In chapter 11 he acknowledges women praying and prophesying in church and doesn't silence them, but rather has other stipulations for both women and men. Can you expand on this a bit more? I am not sure which of the response categories this would fall in...probably #3? Though I think the impulse to use Scripture to interpret Scripture is a good one, and doesn't have to be done out of an intent to obscure. Thanks for laying this out!
I am in full agreement with you. One possible category that I have seen come up when "talking" to people online is one of "inconsistency". When we read "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak..." to mean that women can't be pastors, aren't we taking too narrow of a view? What I mean is, the verse seems to clearly say that women have to be actually silent in church. On the surface it would seem that they shouldn't even sign? Likewise, how come we don't take "If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home." to mean that women shouldn't ask questions in Bible study at church? It *seems* pretty clear from this verse that women shouldn't ask questions at church, but should "ask their husbands at home". Again, I am not saying I agree with these arguments, but I do think it is another category for you. The fundamental "issue" is why we take all this to mean narrowly that women can't be pastors but *seem* to ignore the other (as clear) implications. Does that make sense?
And what of single women without husbands? Without children? How do they "fit" in life, even in relation to the points you make? How to submit to a husband for which there is none?
@Americandream805 Paul wrote this fully aware that widows exist (a single woman not under the authority of a man, whether father or husband, was an anomaly compared to today). He tells the older women to teach the younger women. Perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation if we were to get our sexual morality in order, but few actually have the will to tell a woman "no."
This totally clicks with my question! These are questions I have been wrestling with too, especially in trying to work out how I would talk about women's ordination with other people who support it.
@@joncollins7129 I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to? Are you saying that women's ordination is caused by some bigger issues? If so, I agree that there are some deeper issues at play, but the questions the original commenter brought up are ones that I see in conversations, so they are worth thinking about how to address I think :)
@PastorBryanWolfmueller What is your position on women doing OT, Epistle, and Gospel readings during the service? It seems like every LCMS church now has this taking place on Sunday mornings. Thank you for all of your knowledge and support. Praise the Lord!
One thing I think we should also consider is that the Church (bride) gathers to open up to and recieve the life that Christ (bridegroom) pours out and fills us with. In this order, Jesus is the primary actor rather than the congregation who is to submit the headship of Christ who the pastor is representing. I think there is probably a solid overlap between believing that we are the primary actors in worship, affirmation of womens coordination, and denial of the life-giving nature of word and sacrament.
@doriesse824 Isaiah 54:5-6, 62:1-5; Hosea 2:14-23 (Isa 62 and hosea have some interesting parallels to song of solomon); Ephesians 5:2, 23-32; 1 cor 11:2; John 3:28-29; Mark 2:18-20; Revelation 19:6-8, 21:1-2. It is a pretty big theme throughout scripture, and there has been a lot of theological work done on it.
Nice timing with things heating up before Lutheran Church of Australia prepares for the Convention of General Synod 2024. Some are saying women ordination is an already a done deal. Please pray for the LCA when it meets on 4-7 October at Concordia College, Adelaide South Australia. Sadly way too much time has been spent discussing this topic but the reality is we are just wasting royal time with congregations shrinking. A woman pastor heading up a church will change nothing but just empty more churches, though many pro women ordination dismiss that. We shall see.
God bless you. Are you being shepherded well at the moment? Do you belong to congregation that supports your orthodox historic Biblical stance? Reply me if the Holy Spirit prompts you to get to know me more.
Although I cannot endorse all of Wayne Grudem's theology, he does address this issue well in his book about Evangelical Femininsm. Also, Justin Peters talked about going to Charis Bible College (a prosperity/Word of Faith college run by Andrew Wommack's church) and he stated that a classroom professor flat out stated that Paul was not speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when talking about women in I Cor 14 and I Tim 2
This is one of the by products of “hearing the voice of god” ( HVG) outside of Scripture theology. Seeing that women are very relationship oriented, teach them that they should have god speak to them (not audibly) during their prayer time. Before long you individuals espousing that they have been “called” to the pastorate. Try to bring them back to Scripture and objections like patriarchy, misogyny and chauvinism can start to be launched. Where as it is a Genesis issue “Did God really say…”. In turn HVG theology is rooted in mysticism and Gnosticism. Books by Sara Young and the Blackaby’s have fanned the flames of private revelations being normative.
There are 600,000 sisters in the church. They administer and run Catholic missions around the world. Without them these church functions will not work. The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 health clinics.
This seems like a oversighted that we ought to think about... What things do women have to give up, not do, in order to be "ordained?"... do those things have value? Much of the mess we now see in the world it's for lack of women doing those things. The last two generations of young people, are the most unmouthered people who have ever lived on the planet. Do you really understand the value of your mother? Including to your father's success?
When you mentioned about the arguments they give in Galatians about no male or female, if you dig into the early church fathers, Saint Epiphanius’ writings in ‘The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis book II & III’, an off-shoot group of the Montanists, the Quintillianists, they justified woman priests/pastors using that exact Galatians reference. Epiphanius notes this and I would add that they do not use the argument that the ordination of woman was the tradition passed down by the apostles and that this was the norm of the day, no instead they point to selective scriptures to fit their position, not what was passed down by the apostles, since this was early church times. Same thing going on today, happened in the 2nd/3rd century. As of now this was the earliest reference I could find of a group using Galatians to justify their woman’s ordination. I may post the link in another comment to Epiphanius’s writings on this.
From the LCMS official website: What is a deaconess? LCMS deaconesses are women who are professional church-workers, "TRAINED to SHARE" the Gospel of Jesus Christ through a ministry of works of mercy, spiritual care, and "TEACHING" the Christian faith. Where do deaconesses serve? Deaconesses serve primarily in three settings: Missions - both foreign and domestic; Congregations - "TEACHING", visiting the sick and imprisoned, or serving in family or other caring ministry Institutions - serving as chaplains in hospitals, prisons, retirement communities, and facilities that care for people with developmental disabilities. In order for a deaconess to be endorsed as an LCMS institutional chaplain, she first must complete a master’s degree in theology along with four units of clinical "PASTORAL" education (CPE). As an institutional chaplain, a deaconess provides valuable spiritual care to those she encounters, complementing the Word and Sacrament ministry of an ordained pastor.
Dear Bryan, Thank you for taking the time to address this question. For someone who wants to have all the texts and have words mean what they mean, it seems like there is a lot you are skipping over or brushing aside. For example, what about the places where Paul describes relationships between men and women with phrases like mutual authority over each other, interdependence, and mutual submission (examples below). Finally, what is a church to do if, heaven forbid, the men are wrong, the women are unable to correct them, and there is no guarantee they will correct themselves? In this sense silence is a very troubling and problematic word to uphold without any "abstraction". "The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife." - 1 Co. 7:4 "Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." - 1 Co. 11:11-12 "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." - Ep. 5:21
I have been asked to read the 2 Bible passages that occur before the sermon Bible passage. I come from a LCMS church that never allowed women to participate in the church service. I still go to an LCMS church and was told by the Pastor and his wife that we all take turns because our church is so small. I am very uncomfortable with this but have been taking my turn anyway. What’s your thoughts on this practice.
You can explain this again and again from a biblical perspective, and you'll still get blasted for using it as an excuse for being "patriarchal" and "chauvinistic"!
Also see why we are having this discussion, Genesis 3:16. The matter of Junia in other translations makes it clear that if Junia was a woman she was with the apostles, not one of the apostles. This is also backed up in Revelation where there are 12 gates to the new Jerusalem and each has an apostles name on the foundation. This is also paralleled in the 12 tribes which also when we compare with the 12 tribes in Revelation we notice that one has been replaced which is type and shadow of the apostles. So Junia was with the apostles not one of the 12. We also see that qualifications to be an elder or overseer are exclusively masculine. 1 Tim 3. For those who question Saint Paul remember that no prophecy or scripture is produced by the will of man. 2Peter1. If you don’t like Paul remember that he is enforced by Luke in the book of Acts and the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3. So if you want to throw out Saint Paul you then loose pretty much the entire New Testament. Yes women are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ but remember folks that a man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, we then are to be forgiving and give all of ourselves for our wives to the point of our own death so no men are not getting off east at all. In fact “a man who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.” I do have two questions for Pastor: Wouldn’t the exact same arguments hold for women covering their hair while prophesying OR PRAYING (1 Cor 11)? Wouldn’t the same arguments hold for women not dressing up all super cute for church (1 Peter3, 1 Tim2)? The arguments against these seem to me to be that same arguments, that should be handled the same way… with obedience to the scripture.
As a woman I would rather trust God's words. When I think about the differences between men and women, I see that men can handle situations that are difficult such as divorce, women tend to want to soft peddle things, because we want to make everyone feel good, men do not worry as much about feelings and will be honest and will say the things that are hard to say from scripture. As a woman I would have a hard time with excommunication, I would always be worried about whether there was another way and would lose sleep over it, I think men don't emotionally attach themselves to each decision. Not that men enjoy excommunication, I'm sure they don't either. The other reason men are best as Pastors is they are there to represent Christ, Jesus came as a man to redeem all people. Another reason is some cultures today still have men as the head of the family and if they recently converted to Christianity they would not accept a woman preaching and it would possibly cause him to walk away from the faith. Also living in our culture today, I see how men are treated as though they are a problem, this may be why so many young men feel lost, this may be why so many don't attend church. Feminist have gone too far for too long. I'm glad God said women are not to teach men and to be submissive. I'm glad I can still learn God's word, I'm glad that Jesus appeared to the women after his resurrection which lets me know that the sin of Eve who sinned first was forgiven and so are my sins forgiven. I can still tell everyone I meet about Jesus and what God's word says, because those who need to hear aren't usually in the church pew.
@Pomni740 Women can be the head if her husband is gone alot for his work, or military duty. I think God had in mind for men to be the head so that Godly men would take their role seriously and not just be on the sidelines looking in when it comes to raising children. I have noticed when my children were young they tended to try to argue and persuade me to change my mind on things they wanted, but when my husband spoke they knew he meant business, children need fathers who are caring, but in charge. We wives appreciate a husband who stands up for us and who when needed gives us their opinions and ideas to keep the family centered on what's important. Some of the reason for crime among young people is the family unit is broken, good fathers are pushed out of the picture, and some young men didn't have good fathers for good examples. But it's never too late to learn.
Which Lutheran sinned do you belong to just curious. I hope it’s not the evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is open and affirming that’s why I left the church.
They have them in Scandinavia. There is a priest here, who has suggested that there should be a ceremony for divorce in church, since there is one for marriage. She is on her 4th marriage as I understand it. Also there is another who is close to 40, been around if you know what I mean, who wants to travel to Africa, be a missionary once she graduates in a couple of years.
That’s not an argument against it. There’s liberal male priests and adulterous and terribly acting male priests. Whether or not Women’s Ordination is good or not should be solely based on the Holy Scripture.
I'm a complementarian. But to play the devil's advocate to answer your question on point number 2 about the positive cultural question, I believe it's quite easy to answer. "What are the conditions that make women's ordination right or wrong?" Answer: Whether or not we live in a patriarchal or egalitarian society. St. Paul's main concern in his epistles is that Christians would not bring reproach on the Gospel and to submit to the earthly authorities, hierarchies, and orders that exist (including slavery). However, one could argue that women's submission is only culturally conditioned where it was already the norm. Now in modern times, women have been given full rights alongside of men (e.g. voting, employment, holding government office, etc.). Inversely, it could bring reproach on the Gospel to defy the social norms of women's equality and make the Church seem oppressive and sectarian. Having said all that, I believe that gender roles were established by God at creation and righteous patriarchy is a fundamental aspect of God-ordered human society; hence, why I'm against women's ordination.
Fair argument but are there limits? What about Christians living in Nazi Germany? Or in an Islamic country, are Christians bound to laws and values that are contrary to scripture?
It is interesting how these things return to our own circles in cycles. One question I never hear is: "is 'authority' properly understood by folks today when we assume such authority through a lens of the Church being the hand maiden of power (post-Constantine) rather than under the Cross, martyrdom and persecution?" I have a feeling that something exegetical has been skipped missing the ante-Nicene reality as opposed to the post-Nicene. Authority and Power, especially under the Cross, are not necessarily the same thing. I have a theory as to why it's important to have women ordained as deaconesses but not preachers, but it's extra-biblical. Although, I may be falling into doing the "heresy two-step." Blessings to you in Christ.
So explain Debra in book of judges, political and religious leader of Israel. And what about Phoebe, deaconess in Romans 16 or what about women prophetesses in NT.
Can you find a passage which shows a prophetess serving as a public speaker for God during a congregational gathering? Scripture consistently distinguishes the roles of men and women.. In particular, it describes women speaking God's Word publicly in song and privately through counsel. Even for Deborah, it says "the people of Israel came up to her for judgment" Judges 4:5 This was as she sat under the palm tree between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim. Wisdom is the ability to discern differences. Go with God's wisdom on this issue.
Earlier in his 1st Letter to the Corinthians (11) Paul gives guidelines for both men and women prophesying in public church gatherings. How does a woman prophesy and keep silent at the same time? Also, every time that a song from the lips of a woman as preserved in the Holy Scriptures, most if not all are prophetic in nature, is read aloud in church, God is effectively instructing us through them. I'm thinking of Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Lady Wisdom, King Lemuel's Mother, Elizabeth, and Mary. Just a thought.
@@billstiefel7384 Also, apparently Deborah is set up as a direct correlation to Moses in Exodus 18. That's a bold parallel to make. "The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?” Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.” (Source: Nijay Gupta in his interview with Preston Sprinkle on the latter's Theology in the Raw podcast about the former's book Tell Her Story)
@@billstiefel7384 Also, apparently Deborah is set in direct correlation to Moses in Exodus 18. That is a bold parallel to make. "The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?” 15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
Many prowomenordiners want to argue on the text critical bases that 1 Cor do not speak nothing on this matter. It is not easy to argue for or against if you are highly trained.
I would also encourage everyone considering the ordination of women to look at every church body that has done it and see if it has born good fruit. I know of NO church body that has accepted and pracgiced Women's ordination that has not also adopted every other position that is opposed to and stands directly against God's word - Homosexual ordination, gay marriages, transgender affirmation, mystical practices even crossing into whichcraft. Also what one finds is men abdicating their roles and leadership willingly. God made man be the leader because he HAD to, otherwise men tend to let others do what we are commanded to do. There has been no good fruit born of women's ordination, just a rapid slide into heterodoxy and every cause du jur and worse.
I think that it’s important to remember God’s pronouncement in Genesis 3:16 - “Your desire will be for your husband [more precisely, for his position and authority], and he will rule over you.”
I visited a Lutheran church yesterday, and one of the elders got up and talked about the impending vote on women's ordination and wanted submissions from the congregation so he could take the church's position to the Synod vote. Can I, as a visitor, also make a submission to this church?
The text is plain and we should not change our message and our practices in the church to please the World, when the World, the Flesh and the Devil are what we battle every day.
So at my LCMS church, the pastor's wife leads the contemporary service. The pastor still preaches and does Communion, but she leads everything else. I bring it up and challenge this but he ignores me and makes me an outcast. The district president has been here and doesn't say anything. So what do I do then. What makes it harder is my family goes back multiple generations in this church as well as the school. Am I the bad guy here?
No, you are not the bad guy. Can you elaborate a little about what you mean when you say she is leading the contemporary service? Is she the lead singer? The MC (if there is such a thing)? Is she preaching the sermon?
If the church is catering to people's tastes and has two different kind of services in the first place it's a problem there are plenty of assembly of God churches out there if they want hillsong music "contemporary" has no place in a Lutheran church
Nope. You’re not the bad guy. I commend you. Your pastor, on the other hand, is unrepentantly practicing sin, leading his wife to sin also. After being approached by one of his children in the faith and refusing to hear correction, and what’s more, causing that child to stumble and feel shame for standing on and pointing to the Word, he is no longer fit to be pastor. If there is no path forward and you’ve tried every recourse available to you flee to the nearest confessional church with a liturgical service. Avoid the contemporary services. They are born from and breed heterodoxy and heteropraxy. From a pastor of the lonely way. Lord keep us steadfast in your word. Curb those who by deceit or sword would wrest the kingdom from your Son and bring to naught all He has done.
@@JonathanMeyer84 So the service is like this, Starts with music, then the pastor's wife (or worship leader if she's not there), opens with a welcome. Next she leads the service with the Apostle's creed. After that she talks about the "Big Idea" for the day, which is usually a one minute preview of what the sermon is about based on the verse for the big idea, then she talks about offering and where the mission of the month offering is going. sing some more songs then the pastor does the sermon followed by words of institution. Then after communion she comes back up with the pastor and they trade off praying for prayer requests from the church. Then announcements and the pastor gives blessing before dismissal. The previous defense for this from the pastor was, a pastor does all the required elements and the district president has seen the service and he didn't have an issue. I have also brought up "open" communion and the way they are "teaching" confirmation. All to no avail. I'm honestly ready to just give up and teach my kids at home.
@sugarmcdoodle3514 Ah I see. I'm not one who tends to take the stance that any variation in the service is automatically bad and heterodox. However, it does seem like a line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.
I watched this video last night, then came across a TikTok clip from a Pastor Rich Tidwell that mentions that in 1 Tim. the Greek word for "women" may be more correctly translated as "wife" due to the context of submitting to a husband. Can you please provide more insight on that? Apparently, it also plugs in with Romans, too.
The apostle Paul reminded Timothy that though he is also called to be an apostle, he can do the work of an evangelist. If GOD desires HE can call a woman to do the work of any of the eight fold (apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist, preacher, pastor, elder, deacon) for a season. HE outranks HIS servant Paul.
Ive never heard the cultural argument you presented. But to answer all your questions, my answer to you would be to study those passages in their original languages and then make an updated video onnwhat you find. Because those translations, especially the ones you used are terribly flawed. Not clear at all as you state. For example the one in 1 Cor. says "the women of you" not the women and the context clearly indicates it's talking about husbands and wives not all women.
You mentioned the text about prophecy and tongues ceasing but didn’t continue to the part where it says when they will cease. It seems to say that they will cease when we see Jesus face to face, when the perfect comes. I’m a very soft continuationist because I don’t see this passage referring to just the first century or until the canon is complete.
What are the differences between the Evangelical approach to evangelism, and the Lutheran approach? Evangelicals lead people to pray for salvation. What is the Lutheran goal? Baptism? Communion? Are there different goals of evangelism.
its because the Lutherans are only 1 step removed from the Catholics, and evangelicals are many steps away the farther you get from the catholic lies the more you get to the truth! the difference is in the message itself, the gospel and the requirements to get saved are different! I don't want to speak for Lutherans because I'm not one but when we evangelize we share the gospel which is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and romans 10:9 combined with Ephesians 2:8-9 we dont believe water baptism saves or is required for salvation ! we go by Ephesians 1:13-14 which is hear the gospel( death burial and resurrection ) believe it , your saved and sealed with the holy spirit until redemption day ! when they believe the gospel revealed to paul they are saved and there's nothing left for the evangelist to do or say , if they dont believe it then you have some work to do ! Ephesians 1:13-14 Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Considered Romans 7, can a divorced man be ordained? Would it depend on the circumstances under which they might have remarried? Can a divorced woman be ordained? There is far more of that around than there are traditional marriages.
@@thejoshuaproject38091 Tim 3.11 could be their wives or women (deaconess). The meaning can be either one, & is an interpretation. It is not certain one way the other
@@thejoshuaproject3809 it is is not loose. There are two possible translations of 'gunaika' wife or women. In the NT Deacons were not stepping stones to Elders, but servants of the church. The Elder office is restricted to qualified men. Deaconate is a little less certain as to male only. I am not LCMS, so am not making a comment on the denomination
Pastor Wolfmueller! I love this and thank you so much for this episode! Just curious - what kind of pens do you use? I'm an artist and always in search of new pens, haha!
I don't know if this fits within the "abstraction" or "obscuring", but I will see people claim that the Bible never mentions the word Pastor, and therefore who we make a pastor is ultimately up to us. It might just fit into the "I haven't actually read the Bible, so I am making things up" category. 🤣
I'm pretty sure my LCMS church engages in the abstraction. I've tried talking with the pastors but they don't seem to be receptive to my concerns. Now, since my church sometimes has women distribute the communion- even though the pastor can only be male, and only he can consecrate communion even in my church- is my partaking of Communion valid?
@@berniepfitzner487 we don't have a board of elders. I have gone to him. He just ignores me. I have requested a meeting with him and our governing board. After that I go to the district. I don't have much hope with the district though. The district president just preached at our church and didn't seem to have a problem with it.
QUESTION: What should our response be to the ordination of women in the church? I would like to convert for quite some time but my church (Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Poland) started to ordain women 2 years ago and pretty much whole church became theologically liberal. I fear more bad things are to come. What should I do? Should we reject such churches and just pray at home? What about receaving the sacraments? Thank you very much, pastor Wolfmueller! God bless!
You are taking 1 Corinthians out of context. 1 Corinthians 14:35 makes it clear that verse 34 only refers to wives asking their husband a question. And it contradicts 1 Corinthians 11 which allows women to pray and prophecy in other words participate in the church service. I agree with you on the passages from First Timothy. Would love to discuss this with you on the phone sometime. Heshem Shehab is my friend. He can put us in touch.
woman can pray and prophesy the can also teach but only woman and children not men! they also cant be the head overseer/ Shepard/ pastor! 1 tim 3:2 English Standard Version Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, the greek word for pastor overseer and Shepard is the same Greek word ! the husband of one wife disqualifies polygamist and woman from that specific role !
It's not a gray or difficult area. God has spelled it out very clearly. All else is willful obfuscation. The cultural argument (whether positive or negative), aside from being completely a-logical, aside from being denied by the text itself, has a very serious problem - it destroys the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. If Paul wrote merely to the culture of his day, or specifically to Corinth, it's useless to us today. It's just debris scattered around amongst Holy Writ, and it's up to us to decide what is Holy Writ and what is debris. And how do we do that? That's easy. We simply toss out anything that we don't like. And thus the Holy Writ has no more authority over us. WE are now in authority over IT. "A woman should learn in silence with full submission. I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, *_she is to be silent_* . For Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed. " (1Tim 2:11-14) "God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the *_women should be silent in the churches_* , for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for *_it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting_* . Did the word of God originate from you, or did it come to you only? *_If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that what I write to you is the Lord’s command_* . " (1Cor 14:33-37)
Just curious, what does one do with other passages that give guidelines for men and women prophesying, which Paul describes as speaking for the building up of the church? "The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." - 1Co.14:5
@@jonathanhnosko7563 "Just curious, what does one do with other passages that give guidelines for men and women prophesying, which Paul describes as speaking for the building up of the church?" You are *_assuming_* that the prophesying that women do is to be done in the church.' Your *_assumption_* conflicts with black and white instructions that women are not to even ask questions. So, of course, your *_assumption_* wins the day, and the plain instructions are discarded.
@@Packhorse-bh8qn Fair enough. I looked back at 1 Corinthians 11 and there is no explicit mention of gatherings, just instructions for men and women. I do think it is reasonable to understand those guidelines to apply to gatherings. I guess when Paul says the following a few chapters later for when the whole church comes together that everyone means everyone, men and women alike. Maybe that's a stretch? 🔍 "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, 'God is really among you!'"
What about a sister of mine who performs baptisms and one wedding for other family members who are not practicing Christian? Some younger members of the family are not regular church goers - any church ,not just LCMS- and they are forcing their non church culture on their parents - my siblings. She paid whatever the going price is online in order to perform a Colorado wedding. Causes me angst - although without her agreement to do the baptisms (2) and one wedding, there would be no semblance of Christianity in either - and probably the baptisms would not have happened at all.
I think that a read of Philip Payne's book "The Bible v Biblical womanhood" I know very few who would say that scripture is wrong, but not well interpreted.
Pastor, I believe it is the mixing of politics and Faith. Since there is nothing new under the sun, Genesis 3:15-16 comes into play. But, in an earlier Sunday Drive, I recall you saying that the reason there is a specific instruction in Corinthians is that it was an issue in that Church because of the culture of pagan worship, specifically Aphrodite, : Corinth was known as “Aphrodite’s city.”
ANTI-HERESY THREE STEP: 1. It seems an Ordained Pastor doesn't really have "authority" in a Lutheran church, given the congregational polity. 2. Also, if I understand the Lutheran liturgy, it seems the Pastor mostly just prayerfully reflects on the day's passages, offers the Eucharist, or gives an Evangelical-style Law/Gospel presentation (and ALL Christians are supposed to evangelize) 3. Therefore, it seems Women's Ordination avoids the errors in the two Epistles
I mean point one, if true, that pastors are lacking in authority in the Lutheran Church just means that they should be given more authority. Point two doesn’t have relevance either because it isn’t true. Pastors are required to do more than just presided over the divine service (which isn’t much to scoff at on its own anyways as if any man is capable of doing it). They are required to be knowledgeable on matters of faith, give private absolution, comfort dying parishioners, etc. So the conclusion really doesn’t follow from any of this.
@@kolab5620 I mean, under their own Lutheran rules, all their pastors lack an authoritative teaching role. The Bishop/Synod, Bible, congregation, and Almighty God are the only entities within their Church that can exercise authority. So if a pastor--male or female--is counseling a male parishioner, nothing said has any "weight" beyond alignment with the will of the entities above. Beyond that, the parishioner can take it or leave it, and judge for himself. So there's just nothing in a female Lutheran pastor's role that even could be forbidden by the verses Wolfmuller cited
Paul's prohibitions? First, Paul clearly in Chapter 11 of 1st Corinthians gives guidelines for women praying and prophesying (which are leadership acts) in the course of a worship servoce, so, when he later writes that women are to be silent on Chapter 14, he is not making a blanket statement, but dealing with a particular issue. In Timothy, when he calls for a woman to not be allowed to teach or usurp the authority of a man, again, he is dealing with a specific situation within that congregation. As evidence that this is the case, just look at verse 8. Paul says that men everywhere to pray with uplifted hands. The same churches that cite verses 12-13 as binding for all time don't require their men to pray with upraised hands. The confllict is resolved by an alternative translation, "But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband." This translation is perfectly legitimate and doesn't lead to Paul contradictimg himself. Paul actually advocates for women in church leadership. In Romans 16, he refers to a woman named Phebe who is a Deacon in the church at Cenchrea, another named Junia who he refers to as being an apostle of note, and finally, he refers to the husband and wife ministry team of Priscilla and Aquila, specifically breaking with tradition to place the wife's name first. Most scholars note that this is probably indicative of her being the more prominent of the couple. Paul not only doesn't condemn ir forbid women from being church leaders, he admonished three women who were serving in positions of leadership.
@@PastorBryanWolfmueller It would seem that you completely missed my point which is that Paul doesn't prohibit women from either holding leadership positions nor does he issue a blanket prohibition against women speaking in church. The time has come for the mainline denominations to accept the fact that the Bible doesn't prohibit women from being church leaders or even preachers and pastors. Phebe was a female deacon, Junia was a female apostle, Phillip had multiple daughters who were prophetesses. In Corinth, Paul gave guidance on the proper etiquette for women prophesying and praying in a worship service. In the early church, the roles of women were more diverse than they are in mainline denominations today.
The text DOES NOT SAY she was a woman apostle. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and fellow prisoners, who are highly regarded by the apostles. They were in Christ before I was". Romans 16:7 The Greek word is ἐν, which is translated as: in, on, at, by, with Junia,(and perhaps Andronicus is her husband) was highly regarded by the Apostles. There are only 12 Apostles.
People who support the ordination of women forget that while God prevents 100% of women being pastors, He also prevents 95% of men from being pastors too. According to the Word, I am disqualified from the office of pastor. And that's ok.
As a woman I think this is a lovely teaching because it comes from God and I love the differences between men and women.
Why are you in christianity? christianity is misogynistic.
Well, I have to say, very well done, my good sir. To take a 20 minute video to do what was horrendously taught in Bible College and Seminary, absolutely brilliant. This is the best encapsulation of what the New Testament teaches concerning ordination for women. I will be using your argumentation and teaching points on this. This is excellent. Thank you for sharing this with us. Blessings from Canada.
That same NT also clearly outlines women's role in the church outside of the pulpit and in our communities and in the home. Partial truths are false idols just the same.
I have looked in God's Word, and I cannot find anything that suggests that God desires to see any woman become a pastor, priest, rabbi, or a leader of any body of followers of Christ. It simply is not there. So, the ordination of women is a modern accommodation due to social pressures which is not of God, but of Man.
Amen, amen
There is nothing in the Bible to suggest women should be obliged to go to Church either. Yet the Catholic Church says women are obliged to go to Mass or thry commit a mortal sin.
Mike Winger is a Calvary Chapel pastor that has done a multi-part series on this. He wanted when he started to be on the side of women pastors, but after doing the study he was convinced that God does not want women to be pastors. Even though he is not LCMS, it is worth a look.
One of the few "denominations" that try to take the Word seriously.
Mike’s series is long (13 parts, 40 hours) but he is very thorough and always scriptural. On this particular matter, the ordination of women, I recommend going to Mike Winger’s concluding video and watching the second point of his three fundamental arguments. It covers this and only runs for 15 minutes. (There are time stamps in the comments.) If anyone the wants to hear the details, they can go back and watch the relevant parts.
Thank you.🙏🏻
Thank you for having the courage to speak the truth.
I’m praying for all of us living in the modern era.
Thank you for your timely words on this huge issue (Australia).
God bless you. Do you have a church community to belong to at the moment? Do you need any pastoral support from an Australian Lutheran Pastor who tunes into this channel presumably for the same reasons you do?
@@jhearer6515 I am part of a group desiring to make sure no beloved child of God who is conscience-bound on this topic will go unnoticed and uncared for now and in the wake of the upcoming LCANZ Synod decision. If you are in a supportive environment - God be praised. If not and you want more clarification I can provide this privately.
@@chrisraatz6672My conscience prompted me to leave already and, praise God, I have found a new Lutheran church home that is confessional and orthodox.
No kidding. I am an Australian Christian.
And I came to the historic orthodox Christian Faith (Lutheran Confessions) against the stream.
In former years I was caught up in Chiliasm In a Baptist sect. There were other woeful influences such as certain elements of Calvinism woven into that type of sect.
But as to the Lutheran Church of Australia (LCA), I could never be part of such a woefully apostate church.
It was founded upon unscriptural grounds already in 1966 out of the formerly conservative ELCA and the liberal UELCA. And the so called "Theses of Agreement" was a deliberate document which undermined the Doctrine of Church Fellowship which both Missouri and the old ELSA / ELCA used to hold
(See online: The Brief Statement - 1932).
So I see the true treasures of Lutheran doctrine as summarised in the Lutheran Confessions. And we rightly celebrate the great Lutherans of the past.
BUT WHERE ARE THE GREAT LUTHERANS OF TODAY ?
So we must follow Christ and not men. These things are not rocket science. It falls into the kindergarten doctrines of Holy Scripture and we ought to be very firm about these things, draw a line in the sand and take a stand.
Be a confessional Lutheran
Clear and neat. Thank you pastor Wolfmueller for speaking the truth! God bless you.
The 'heresy two-step,' love it. Perfect for us in Texas.
This is an especially good presentation because Pastor Wolfmueller displays the loving attitude we should all strive for when discussing theological concepts with people who are directly opposed to our Biblical worldview and want to be their own god instead of submitting and serving the one true God.
Already know this is another banger one, thank you Ps. Wolfmueller!
Great video on an interesting topic. Especially enjoy your understanding of “submission” and how it also correlates with Titus 2:3-5. Very well done sir. Loved your presentation this year at the conference in Chicago
I think the best argument against their push for it being a cultural issue gets deflated immediately because Paul takes us all the way back to Genesis three in the garden of Eden. End of story. Satan hates God‘s order, sinful man does not like God to be in charge and to tell them what’s right and what’s wrong this is just another example of that God’s economy is right and perfect. We are reaping what we have sown in our culture as a result of turning our backs against God‘s ways.
If the "sparkle creed" didn't get everyone to repent I don't know what it will take.
Fitting timing! My wife and I have been wrestling with this question the last few months, and just decided to move away from our Nazarene denomination church, and more towards an LCMS confessional Lutheran church body. Not many options here in this southern Baptist Bible Belt we live in so already have plans to move to Saint Louis! Thanks Bryan.
If you can’t find LCMS, the AALC is in fellowship. We are almost identical but slightly more conservative on some issues while slightly less on issues revolving around remote churches as regards to online see for people like me that don’t have a faithful Lutheran church within a two hour radius… especially in areas like mine where we stock up 3 months of food for when the snow is measured in feet and sometimes have to dig our way out of the front door.
@@nemoexnuqual3643 Thank you! Yep have looked for AALC around too. And Pastor Chris Rosebrough and Jordan Cooper who are AALC, have been flowing their ministry as well.
@@MetsudahProductions182 both are fantastic. AALC is small though.
Pastor Chris’s church (Kongsvinger Lutheran) has a contact email and he not only got back to me with a video call to answer my questions but also took the time to help my brother in law to find a good local LCMS church.
He is a busy guy so give him a couple weeks to get back to you.
You can get ahead of the game by reading the small catechism which is basically a short form version of what and how we believe.
God’s peace
I hear you, brother. I left the Nazarene church in 2012 (Dan Bohi was being pushed by the pastor) and through a careful re-examination of our theology we converted to Lutheranism.
Be sure and look for a church before you move. Not all St Louis churches fall into the category of confessional.
… why is it still a Q in Australia? Coz the LCANZ president (Steicke) declared (unilaterally ?) it an open question or rather that the synod should thoroughly look at it (probably given the current world scene at that time - 1980’s ) - despite already having the confessional Lutheran position clearly stated in its Theses of Agreement (TA). These Theses were part of the process of theological discussion & clarification for the union of the 2 main Lutheran church bodies in 1966. They began this process in the 1930’s & were essentially done in the 1950’s, but procrastinated a further 10 years doing nothing much (my agricultural viewpoint). A major effort for the European based UELCA (Hebart, Lohe etc) & the Missouri synod based ELCA (Hamann, Graebner etc), the TA are a confessional Lutheran piece reflecting the hand (?) or at least the influence of Herman Sasse, who taught at the Immanuel Seminary (UELCA) in Adelaide. Pastors’ Conferences have reflected the struggle of the church to maintain the high view of Scripture and to provide clear teaching given the sexual revolution of the ‘60’s & all the resultant bioethical issues that have flowed on since then.
In short, people have not been taught to appreciate & understand confessional Lutheran theology as they live the faith in the typical western TV culture in those decades before & after union. WO has dragged on now for 40 years basically, unable to achieve the two thirds majority to rescind the particular thesis that prohibits the ordaining of women, though in no way impeding their spiritual rights given in Baptism. Presidents, who were responsible for upholding the teaching of the church, and who basically did, have now been replaced by Bishops who in these last forty years, have not defended the teaching of the church as given at union, and help raise the theological literacy of the priesthood of all believers, enabling their fluency rigour, and allowed this parlous situation to fester unabated, kicking the ball further into the future under all sorts of guises like consensus, social rights, relevancy for mission, etc etc.
So now earnest discussions & prayers & effort are being undertaken so the liberal parishes can achieve their worldly & logical solution of one church with 2 practices. Reason here is being used in its magisterial role to achieve a ministerial outcome. This is not good theology, and it will result in a troubled, problematic and fuzzy ecclesiology.
Brilliant as always, by God’s grace! Thank you, Pastor!
Well done. A correct interpretation and proper application of God's word. We all submit to some sort of authority. And when we step outside of that authority we either are corrected, or suffer the consequences.
Pastor Wolfmueller. Another great video. There is one application of this text which I would appreciate you addressing, especially for all your listeners in the LCMS. That is issuing of the Divine Call through the congregation from Christ.
You read Paul’s use of the word “authority.” He does not specifically use the word “pastor”. He forbids women to have authority over men in the church. Here’s question #5: women who participate in voting on who the congregation calls as its pastor, are they not exercising authority over that man in the Divine Call?
As an LCMS pastor I have always taught such is the case. And up until the convention in 1969, the LCMS taught the same.
For your LCMS listeners, I would greatly appreciate your speaking to this issue, even though I know it is a painful topic for many.
Thanks. The LORD be with you.
I don't understand why some women feel the need to be ordained ministers. It feels wrong to me. I am helping my husband to learn more about God through guidance in studying scriptures. I have more understanding of scripture than he does because I study the Bible every day. When he hears about what the scriptures teach us, I know that it is not my teaching, but it is God's teaching through His word. His word is LAW. Questioning it is blasphemy.
This is a good teaching. Thank you Pastor.
Thankyou for this Pastor Wolfmueller!
When I do not like what it says it means I am as dumb as a worm and need to study more. Second I count on my Golden Rule. God is always right. Therefore, need to learn more. Repent and learn more. Praise The Lord!
The explanation I have heard for the 1 Corinthians passage cited here is that Paul is silencing disorderly speaking, and uses the same word (sigaō) to silence those speaking in tongues without someone to interpret in verse 28, and prophesying if someone receives a revelation in verse 30. And so then the explanation continues that in verse 34-35, Paul is silencing the women who were asking too many basic questions and contributing to disorder in the service. In chapter 11 he acknowledges women praying and prophesying in church and doesn't silence them, but rather has other stipulations for both women and men. Can you expand on this a bit more?
I am not sure which of the response categories this would fall in...probably #3? Though I think the impulse to use Scripture to interpret Scripture is a good one, and doesn't have to be done out of an intent to obscure.
Thanks for laying this out!
Well said, Bryan! I will likely use this video in my teaching; you've made my job that much easier. Keep up the good work!
I am in full agreement with you. One possible category that I have seen come up when "talking" to people online is one of "inconsistency". When we read "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak..." to mean that women can't be pastors, aren't we taking too narrow of a view? What I mean is, the verse seems to clearly say that women have to be actually silent in church. On the surface it would seem that they shouldn't even sign? Likewise, how come we don't take "If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home." to mean that women shouldn't ask questions in Bible study at church? It *seems* pretty clear from this verse that women shouldn't ask questions at church, but should "ask their husbands at home". Again, I am not saying I agree with these arguments, but I do think it is another category for you. The fundamental "issue" is why we take all this to mean narrowly that women can't be pastors but *seem* to ignore the other (as clear) implications. Does that make sense?
And what of single women without husbands? Without children? How do they "fit" in life, even in relation to the points you make? How to submit to a husband for which there is none?
@Americandream805 Paul wrote this fully aware that widows exist (a single woman not under the authority of a man, whether father or husband, was an anomaly compared to today). He tells the older women to teach the younger women.
Perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation if we were to get our sexual morality in order, but few actually have the will to tell a woman "no."
This totally clicks with my question! These are questions I have been wrestling with too, especially in trying to work out how I would talk about women's ordination with other people who support it.
@user-tv3go6og4p at this point, stopping women's ordination is just cutting off the toe of a fully gangrenous leg
@@joncollins7129 I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to? Are you saying that women's ordination is caused by some bigger issues? If so, I agree that there are some deeper issues at play, but the questions the original commenter brought up are ones that I see in conversations, so they are worth thinking about how to address I think :)
@PastorBryanWolfmueller What is your position on women doing OT, Epistle, and Gospel readings during the service? It seems like every LCMS church now has this taking place on Sunday mornings. Thank you for all of your knowledge and support. Praise the Lord!
One thing I think we should also consider is that the Church (bride) gathers to open up to and recieve the life that Christ (bridegroom) pours out and fills us with. In this order, Jesus is the primary actor rather than the congregation who is to submit the headship of Christ who the pastor is representing. I think there is probably a solid overlap between believing that we are the primary actors in worship, affirmation of womens coordination, and denial of the life-giving nature of word and sacrament.
Where does it say the Church is the Bride of Christ?
@doriesse824 Isaiah 54:5-6, 62:1-5; Hosea 2:14-23 (Isa 62 and hosea have some interesting parallels to song of solomon); Ephesians 5:2, 23-32; 1 cor 11:2; John 3:28-29; Mark 2:18-20; Revelation 19:6-8, 21:1-2.
It is a pretty big theme throughout scripture, and there has been a lot of theological work done on it.
Nice timing with things heating up before Lutheran Church of Australia prepares for the
Convention of General Synod 2024.
Some are saying women ordination is an already a done deal.
Please pray for the LCA when it meets on 4-7 October at Concordia College, Adelaide South Australia.
Sadly way too much time has been spent discussing this topic but the reality is we are just wasting royal time with congregations shrinking.
A woman pastor heading up a church will change nothing but just empty more churches, though many pro women ordination dismiss that. We shall see.
God bless you. Are you being shepherded well at the moment? Do you belong to congregation that supports your orthodox historic Biblical stance? Reply me if the Holy Spirit prompts you to get to know me more.
Well said pastor Bryan Wolfmueller.
Although I cannot endorse all of Wayne Grudem's theology, he does address this issue well in his book about Evangelical Femininsm. Also, Justin Peters talked about going to Charis Bible College (a prosperity/Word of Faith college run by Andrew Wommack's church) and he stated that a classroom professor flat out stated that Paul was not speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when talking about women in I Cor 14 and I Tim 2
This is one of the by products of “hearing the voice of god” ( HVG) outside of Scripture theology. Seeing that women are very relationship oriented, teach them that they should have god speak to them (not audibly) during their prayer time. Before long you individuals espousing that they have been “called” to the pastorate. Try to bring them back to Scripture and objections like patriarchy, misogyny and chauvinism can start to be launched. Where as it is a Genesis issue “Did God really say…”.
In turn HVG theology is rooted in mysticism and Gnosticism. Books by Sara Young and the Blackaby’s have fanned the flames of private revelations being normative.
Excellent! God and His Word are glorified. ❤
Women have so many other important gifts to offer the church. Not being pastors does not diminish their role in serving God's church on earth.
There are 600,000 sisters in the church. They administer and run Catholic missions around the world. Without them these church functions will not work.
The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 health clinics.
This seems like a oversighted that we ought to think about... What things do women have to give up, not do, in order to be "ordained?"... do those things have value? Much of the mess we now see in the world it's for lack of women doing those things. The last two generations of young people, are the most unmouthered people who have ever lived on the planet. Do you really understand the value of your mother? Including to your father's success?
Great word, the point on the second thought was very helpful to me in my context
"Oh my people, women and children rule over you."
Amen! God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The culture may change but God never does.
How can I submit a question to you?
When you mentioned about the arguments they give in Galatians about no male or female, if you dig into the early church fathers, Saint Epiphanius’ writings in ‘The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis book II & III’, an off-shoot group of the Montanists, the Quintillianists, they justified woman priests/pastors using that exact Galatians reference. Epiphanius notes this and I would add that they do not use the argument that the ordination of woman was the tradition passed down by the apostles and that this was the norm of the day, no instead they point to selective scriptures to fit their position, not what was passed down by the apostles, since this was early church times. Same thing going on today, happened in the 2nd/3rd century. As of now this was the earliest reference I could find of a group using Galatians to justify their woman’s ordination. I may post the link in another comment to Epiphanius’s writings on this.
A few questions about transgenderism ought to disabuse anyone of Gal 3:28's universal, contextless applicability.
From the LCMS official website:
What is a deaconess?
LCMS deaconesses are women who are professional church-workers, "TRAINED to SHARE" the Gospel of Jesus Christ through a ministry of works of mercy, spiritual care, and "TEACHING" the Christian faith.
Where do deaconesses serve?
Deaconesses serve primarily in three settings:
Missions - both foreign and domestic;
Congregations - "TEACHING", visiting the sick and imprisoned, or serving in family or other caring ministry
Institutions - serving as chaplains in hospitals, prisons, retirement communities, and facilities that care for people with developmental disabilities. In order for a deaconess to be endorsed as an LCMS institutional chaplain, she first must complete a master’s degree in theology along with four units of clinical "PASTORAL" education (CPE). As an institutional chaplain, a deaconess provides valuable spiritual care to those she encounters, complementing the Word and Sacrament ministry of an ordained pastor.
Dear Bryan, Thank you for taking the time to address this question. For someone who wants to have all the texts and have words mean what they mean, it seems like there is a lot you are skipping over or brushing aside.
For example, what about the places where Paul describes relationships between men and women with phrases like mutual authority over each other, interdependence, and mutual submission (examples below).
Finally, what is a church to do if, heaven forbid, the men are wrong, the women are unable to correct them, and there is no guarantee they will correct themselves? In this sense silence is a very troubling and problematic word to uphold without any "abstraction".
"The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife." - 1 Co. 7:4
"Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." - 1 Co. 11:11-12
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." - Ep. 5:21
And so far I have not seen many Lutheran churches where all of the women’s heads were covered
The covering is long hair, but yes, so many older ladies with butch hair cuts... no veiling of the head... or hair worn up in a bun.
Well stated. Amen.
I have been asked to read the 2 Bible passages that occur before the sermon Bible passage. I come from a LCMS church that never allowed women to participate in the church service. I still go to an LCMS church and was told by the Pastor and his wife that we all take turns because our church is so small. I am very uncomfortable with this but have been taking my turn anyway. What’s your thoughts on this practice.
Excellent! Thank you
You can explain this again and again from a biblical perspective, and you'll still get blasted for using it as an excuse for being "patriarchal" and "chauvinistic"!
Thank you for your prayers ❤
Hallelujah amen
Thank you for the brilliant clarity! I left the Alliance denomination because they decided to start ordaining woman (I’m a woman btw). Ended up LCMS!
Also see why we are having this discussion, Genesis 3:16.
The matter of Junia in other translations makes it clear that if Junia was a woman she was with the apostles, not one of the apostles. This is also backed up in Revelation where there are 12 gates to the new Jerusalem and each has an apostles name on the foundation. This is also paralleled in the 12 tribes which also when we compare with the 12 tribes in Revelation we notice that one has been replaced which is type and shadow of the apostles. So Junia was with the apostles not one of the 12.
We also see that qualifications to be an elder or overseer are exclusively masculine. 1 Tim 3.
For those who question Saint Paul remember that no prophecy or scripture is produced by the will of man. 2Peter1.
If you don’t like Paul remember that he is enforced by Luke in the book of Acts and the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3. So if you want to throw out Saint Paul you then loose pretty much the entire New Testament.
Yes women are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ but remember folks that a man is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, we then are to be forgiving and give all of ourselves for our wives to the point of our own death so no men are not getting off east at all. In fact “a man who does not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever.”
I do have two questions for Pastor:
Wouldn’t the exact same arguments hold for women covering their hair while prophesying OR PRAYING (1 Cor 11)?
Wouldn’t the same arguments hold for women not dressing up all super cute for church (1 Peter3, 1 Tim2)?
The arguments against these seem to me to be that same arguments, that should be handled the same way… with obedience to the scripture.
As a woman I would rather trust God's words. When I think about the differences between men and women, I see that men can handle situations that are difficult such as divorce, women tend to want to soft peddle things, because we want to make everyone feel good, men do not worry as much about feelings and will be honest and will say the things that are hard to say from scripture. As a woman I would have a hard time with excommunication, I would always be worried about whether there was another way and would lose sleep over it, I think men don't emotionally attach themselves to each decision. Not that men enjoy excommunication, I'm sure they don't either.
The other reason men are best as Pastors is they are there to represent Christ, Jesus came as a man to redeem all people.
Another reason is some cultures today still have men as the head of the family and if they recently converted to Christianity they would not accept a woman preaching and it would possibly cause him to walk away from the faith.
Also living in our culture today, I see how men are treated as though they are a problem, this may be why so many young men feel lost, this may be why so many don't attend church. Feminist have gone too far for too long. I'm glad God said women are not to teach men and to be submissive.
I'm glad I can still learn God's word, I'm glad that Jesus appeared to the women after his resurrection which lets me know that the sin of Eve who sinned first was forgiven and so are my sins forgiven. I can still tell everyone I meet about Jesus and what God's word says, because those who need to hear aren't usually in the church pew.
Why are you in christianity? christianity is misogynistic.
Men are still the head of the family in our culture
@@joshupole4149 What does that mean?
@joshupole4149 Why can't women be the head of the family?
@Pomni740 Women can be the head if her husband is gone alot for his work, or military duty. I think God had in mind for men to be the head so that Godly men would take their role seriously and not just be on the sidelines looking in when it comes to raising children.
I have noticed when my children were young they tended to try to argue and persuade me to change my mind on things they wanted, but when my husband spoke they knew he meant business, children need fathers who are caring, but in charge. We wives appreciate a husband who stands up for us and who when needed gives us their opinions and ideas to keep the family centered on what's important.
Some of the reason for crime among young people is the family unit is broken, good fathers are pushed out of the picture, and some young men didn't have good fathers for good examples. But it's never too late to learn.
This is helpful. Thank you. 🙏
If only we took Mark 9:47 as seriously as we take the passages about women.
I've also heard the argument that said Paul was not Holy, how can he speak for Christ?
Which Lutheran sinned do you belong to just curious. I hope it’s not the evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is open and affirming that’s why I left the church.
Synod
He's LCMS, brother.@@markwyse7925
We are all fallen and weak, so we have trouble bending to the wishes of God. Not to mention ego, what a powerful weapon of the enemy.
If there are no mens in the church,willing and eable to serve ? Like in PR , the churches are mostly70 % Women? What's the solution?
They have them in Scandinavia. There is a priest here, who has suggested that there should be a ceremony for divorce in church, since there is one for marriage. She is on her 4th marriage as I understand it. Also there is another who is close to 40, been around if you know what I mean, who wants to travel to Africa, be a missionary once she graduates in a couple of years.
That’s not an argument against it. There’s liberal male priests and adulterous and terribly acting male priests.
Whether or not Women’s Ordination is good or not should be solely based on the Holy Scripture.
Do you attend the CoS?
Nicely laid out. Thank you.
I'm a complementarian. But to play the devil's advocate to answer your question on point number 2 about the positive cultural question, I believe it's quite easy to answer. "What are the conditions that make women's ordination right or wrong?" Answer: Whether or not we live in a patriarchal or egalitarian society. St. Paul's main concern in his epistles is that Christians would not bring reproach on the Gospel and to submit to the earthly authorities, hierarchies, and orders that exist (including slavery). However, one could argue that women's submission is only culturally conditioned where it was already the norm. Now in modern times, women have been given full rights alongside of men (e.g. voting, employment, holding government office, etc.). Inversely, it could bring reproach on the Gospel to defy the social norms of women's equality and make the Church seem oppressive and sectarian. Having said all that, I believe that gender roles were established by God at creation and righteous patriarchy is a fundamental aspect of God-ordered human society; hence, why I'm against women's ordination.
Fair argument but are there limits? What about Christians living in Nazi Germany? Or in an Islamic country, are Christians bound to laws and values that are contrary to scripture?
It is interesting how these things return to our own circles in cycles. One question I never hear is: "is 'authority' properly understood by folks today when we assume such authority through a lens of the Church being the hand maiden of power (post-Constantine) rather than under the Cross, martyrdom and persecution?" I have a feeling that something exegetical has been skipped missing the ante-Nicene reality as opposed to the post-Nicene. Authority and Power, especially under the Cross, are not necessarily the same thing. I have a theory as to why it's important to have women ordained as deaconesses but not preachers, but it's extra-biblical. Although, I may be falling into doing the "heresy two-step." Blessings to you in Christ.
So explain Debra in book of judges, political and religious leader of Israel. And what about Phoebe, deaconess in Romans 16 or what about women prophetesses in NT.
Can you find a passage which shows a prophetess serving as a public speaker for God during a congregational gathering? Scripture consistently distinguishes the roles of men and women.. In particular, it describes women speaking God's Word publicly in song and privately through counsel. Even for Deborah, it says "the people of Israel came up to her for judgment" Judges 4:5 This was as she sat under the palm tree between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim. Wisdom is the ability to discern differences. Go with God's wisdom on this issue.
Earlier in his 1st Letter to the Corinthians (11) Paul gives guidelines for both men and women prophesying in public church gatherings. How does a woman prophesy and keep silent at the same time?
Also, every time that a song from the lips of a woman as preserved in the Holy Scriptures, most if not all are prophetic in nature, is read aloud in church, God is effectively instructing us through them.
I'm thinking of Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Lady Wisdom, King Lemuel's Mother, Elizabeth, and Mary. Just a thought.
@@billstiefel7384 Also, apparently Deborah is set up as a direct correlation to Moses in Exodus 18. That's a bold parallel to make.
"The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”
Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
(Source: Nijay Gupta in his interview with Preston Sprinkle on the latter's Theology in the Raw podcast about the former's book Tell Her Story)
@@billstiefel7384 Forgot to tag you in my earlier comment with examples that you asked about. Cheers!
@@billstiefel7384 Also, apparently Deborah is set in direct correlation to Moses in Exodus 18. That is a bold parallel to make.
"The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
One of your best Pastor W!👍🏼
Many prowomenordiners want to argue on the text critical bases that 1 Cor do not speak nothing on this matter. It is not easy to argue for or against if you are highly trained.
I would also encourage everyone considering the ordination of women to look at every church body that has done it and see if it has born good fruit.
I know of NO church body that has accepted and pracgiced Women's ordination that has not also adopted every other position that is opposed to and stands directly against God's word - Homosexual ordination, gay marriages, transgender affirmation, mystical practices even crossing into whichcraft.
Also what one finds is men abdicating their roles and leadership willingly. God made man be the leader because he HAD to, otherwise men tend to let others do what we are commanded to do.
There has been no good fruit born of women's ordination, just a rapid slide into heterodoxy and every cause du jur and worse.
I think that it’s important to remember God’s pronouncement in Genesis 3:16 - “Your desire will be for your husband [more precisely, for his position and authority], and he will rule over you.”
Beautifully explained thank you Pastor!
I visited a Lutheran church yesterday, and one of the elders got up and talked about the impending vote on women's ordination and wanted submissions from the congregation so he could take the church's position to the Synod vote. Can I, as a visitor, also make a submission to this church?
I have seen many clips of women Luthren Pastors in rainbow garb preaching twisted Scripture. What is going on?
The text is plain and we should not change our message and our practices in the church to please the World, when the World, the Flesh and the Devil are what we battle every day.
So at my LCMS church, the pastor's wife leads the contemporary service. The pastor still preaches and does Communion, but she leads everything else. I bring it up and challenge this but he ignores me and makes me an outcast. The district president has been here and doesn't say anything. So what do I do then. What makes it harder is my family goes back multiple generations in this church as well as the school. Am I the bad guy here?
No, you are not the bad guy. Can you elaborate a little about what you mean when you say she is leading the contemporary service? Is she the lead singer? The MC (if there is such a thing)? Is she preaching the sermon?
If the church is catering to people's tastes and has two different kind of services in the first place it's a problem there are plenty of assembly of God churches out there if they want hillsong music "contemporary" has no place in a Lutheran church
Nope. You’re not the bad guy. I commend you. Your pastor, on the other hand, is unrepentantly practicing sin, leading his wife to sin also. After being approached by one of his children in the faith and refusing to hear correction, and what’s more, causing that child to stumble and feel shame for standing on and pointing to the Word, he is no longer fit to be pastor. If there is no path forward and you’ve tried every recourse available to you flee to the nearest confessional church with a liturgical service. Avoid the contemporary services. They are born from and breed heterodoxy and heteropraxy. From a pastor of the lonely way. Lord keep us steadfast in your word. Curb those who by deceit or sword would wrest the kingdom from your Son and bring to naught all He has done.
@@JonathanMeyer84 So the service is like this, Starts with music, then the pastor's wife (or worship leader if she's not there), opens with a welcome. Next she leads the service with the Apostle's creed. After that she talks about the "Big Idea" for the day, which is usually a one minute preview of what the sermon is about based on the verse for the big idea, then she talks about offering and where the mission of the month offering is going. sing some more songs then the pastor does the sermon followed by words of institution. Then after communion she comes back up with the pastor and they trade off praying for prayer requests from the church. Then announcements and the pastor gives blessing before dismissal. The previous defense for this from the pastor was, a pastor does all the required elements and the district president has seen the service and he didn't have an issue. I have also brought up "open" communion and the way they are "teaching" confirmation. All to no avail. I'm honestly ready to just give up and teach my kids at home.
@sugarmcdoodle3514 Ah I see. I'm not one who tends to take the stance that any variation in the service is automatically bad and heterodox. However, it does seem like a line has been crossed that should not have been crossed.
I watched this video last night, then came across a TikTok clip from a Pastor Rich Tidwell that mentions that in 1 Tim. the Greek word for "women" may be more correctly translated as "wife" due to the context of submitting to a husband. Can you please provide more insight on that? Apparently, it also plugs in with Romans, too.
Fantastic! Nicely divided into easy to understandable segments. Great questions to consider. .
The apostle Paul reminded Timothy that though he is also called to be an apostle, he can do the work of an evangelist.
If GOD desires HE can call a woman to do the work of any of the eight fold (apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist, preacher, pastor, elder, deacon) for a season. HE outranks HIS servant Paul.
Ive never heard the cultural argument you presented. But to answer all your questions, my answer to you would be to study those passages in their original languages and then make an updated video onnwhat you find. Because those translations, especially the ones you used are terribly flawed. Not clear at all as you state. For example the one in 1 Cor. says "the women of you" not the women and the context clearly indicates it's talking about husbands and wives not all women.
Really good. Thank you Pastor
You mentioned the text about prophecy and tongues ceasing but didn’t continue to the part where it says when they will cease. It seems to say that they will cease when we see Jesus face to face, when the perfect comes. I’m a very soft continuationist because I don’t see this passage referring to just the first century or until the canon is complete.
Thank you!
What are the differences between the Evangelical approach to evangelism, and the Lutheran approach? Evangelicals lead people to pray for salvation. What is the Lutheran goal? Baptism? Communion? Are there different goals of evangelism.
its because the Lutherans are only 1 step removed from the Catholics, and evangelicals are many steps away the farther you get from the catholic lies the more you get to the truth!
the difference is in the message itself, the gospel and the requirements to get saved are different! I don't want to speak for Lutherans because I'm not one but when we evangelize we share the gospel which is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and romans 10:9 combined with Ephesians 2:8-9 we dont believe water baptism saves or is required for salvation ! we go by Ephesians 1:13-14 which is hear the gospel( death burial and resurrection ) believe it , your saved and sealed with the holy spirit until redemption day ! when they believe the gospel revealed to paul they are saved and there's nothing left for the evangelist to do or say , if they dont believe it then you have some work to do !
Ephesians 1:13-14 Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Considered Romans 7, can a divorced man be ordained? Would it depend on the circumstances under which they might have remarried? Can a divorced woman be ordained? There is far more of that around than there are traditional marriages.
This is why the LCMS need to have male only deacons, it's a side step that leads to female ordination.
it is a completely different role
@@run4cmt 1 Timothy clearly lays out the office of deacon. They are to be the Husband of one Wife i.e it's a male only office.
@@thejoshuaproject38091 Tim 3.11 could be their wives or women (deaconess). The meaning can be either one, & is an interpretation. It is not certain one way the other
@@greggpurviance7252 With that loose of an interpretation you can also say that Elders can be women as well.
@@thejoshuaproject3809 it is is not loose. There are two possible translations of 'gunaika' wife or women. In the NT Deacons were not stepping stones to Elders, but servants of the church. The Elder office is restricted to qualified men. Deaconate is a little less certain as to male only. I am not LCMS, so am not making a comment on the denomination
Pastor Wolfmueller! I love this and thank you so much for this episode! Just curious - what kind of pens do you use? I'm an artist and always in search of new pens, haha!
This shows the depth of his sheep, or followers, the religious lemmings , seek God, not religion, trust in Jesus not Lutheran doctrines
I don't know if this fits within the "abstraction" or "obscuring", but I will see people claim that the Bible never mentions the word Pastor, and therefore who we make a pastor is ultimately up to us. It might just fit into the "I haven't actually read the Bible, so I am making things up" category. 🤣
What is the gift of knowledge Paul is talking about? :)
The heresy two-step on women doing everything but not ordaining them is all too common in the LCMS as well.
Why now? As I have heard it is because there are so few men out there that are called to be a pastor so some churches are trying to find somebody else
Another question to ask: Why do these women want to have authority over men? What is their motivation?
I'm pretty sure my LCMS church engages in the abstraction. I've tried talking with the pastors but they don't seem to be receptive to my concerns. Now, since my church sometimes has women distribute the communion- even though the pastor can only be male, and only he can consecrate communion even in my church- is my partaking of Communion valid?
My church hasn't gone that far, but is very close. I feel your pain. It's tough to be a lone voice in the wilderness.
Go to your Pastor. Point out his error. If he doesn't repent go to your elders. If they can't help him repent go to your district President and so on.
@@berniepfitzner487 we don't have a board of elders. I have gone to him. He just ignores me. I have requested a meeting with him and our governing board. After that I go to the district. I don't have much hope with the district though. The district president just preached at our church and didn't seem to have a problem with it.
@sugarmcdoodle3514 great work. My response was to the original comment.
QUESTION: What should our response be to the ordination of women in the church? I would like to convert for quite some time but my church (Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Poland) started to ordain women 2 years ago and pretty much whole church became theologically liberal. I fear more bad things are to come. What should I do? Should we reject such churches and just pray at home? What about receaving the sacraments? Thank you very much, pastor Wolfmueller! God bless!
That is a very interesting question. I hope Pastor answers… I’ll say a prayer for you, friend.
@@solosaloon1959 Many thanks! God bless you! ❤🔥
The arguments in favor of female ordination are the same arguments in opposition to female head coverings in church.
You are taking 1 Corinthians out of context.
1 Corinthians 14:35 makes it clear that verse 34 only refers to wives asking their husband a question.
And it contradicts 1 Corinthians 11 which allows women to pray and prophecy in other words participate in the church service.
I agree with you on the passages from First Timothy.
Would love to discuss this with you on the phone sometime.
Heshem Shehab is my friend.
He can put us in touch.
woman can pray and prophesy the can also teach but only woman and children not men!
they also cant be the head overseer/ Shepard/ pastor!
1 tim 3:2 English Standard Version
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
the greek word for pastor overseer and Shepard is the same Greek word !
the husband of one wife disqualifies polygamist and woman from that specific role !
It's not a gray or difficult area. God has spelled it out very clearly. All else is willful obfuscation.
The cultural argument (whether positive or negative), aside from being completely a-logical, aside from being denied by the text itself, has a very serious problem - it destroys the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. If Paul wrote merely to the culture of his day, or specifically to Corinth, it's useless to us today. It's just debris scattered around amongst Holy Writ, and it's up to us to decide what is Holy Writ and what is debris.
And how do we do that? That's easy. We simply toss out anything that we don't like.
And thus the Holy Writ has no more authority over us. WE are now in authority over IT.
"A woman should learn in silence with full submission. I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, *_she is to be silent_* . For Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed. " (1Tim 2:11-14)
"God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the *_women should be silent in the churches_* , for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for *_it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting_* . Did the word of God originate from you, or did it come to you only? *_If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that what I write to you is the Lord’s command_* . " (1Cor 14:33-37)
Just curious, what does one do with other passages that give guidelines for men and women prophesying, which Paul describes as speaking for the building up of the church?
"The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up." - 1Co.14:5
@@jonathanhnosko7563 "Just curious, what does one do with other passages that give guidelines for men and women prophesying, which Paul describes as speaking for the building up of the church?"
You are *_assuming_* that the prophesying that women do is to be done in the church.'
Your *_assumption_* conflicts with black and white instructions that women are not to even ask questions.
So, of course, your *_assumption_* wins the day, and the plain instructions are discarded.
@@Packhorse-bh8qn Fair enough. I looked back at 1 Corinthians 11 and there is no explicit mention of gatherings, just instructions for men and women. I do think it is reasonable to understand those guidelines to apply to gatherings. I guess when Paul says the following a few chapters later for when the whole church comes together that everyone means everyone, men and women alike. Maybe that's a stretch? 🔍
"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, 'God is really among you!'"
What about a sister of mine who performs baptisms and one wedding for other family members who are not practicing Christian? Some younger members of the family are not regular church goers - any church ,not just LCMS- and they are forcing their non church culture on their parents - my siblings. She paid whatever the going price is online in order to perform a Colorado wedding. Causes me angst - although without her agreement to do the baptisms (2) and one wedding, there would be no semblance of Christianity in either - and probably the baptisms would not have happened at all.
I think that a read of Philip Payne's book "The Bible v Biblical womanhood"
I know very few who would say that scripture is wrong, but not well interpreted.
Pastor, I believe it is the mixing of politics and Faith. Since there is nothing new under the sun, Genesis 3:15-16 comes into play. But, in an earlier Sunday Drive, I recall you saying that the reason there is a specific instruction in Corinthians is that it was an issue in that Church because of the culture of pagan worship, specifically Aphrodite, : Corinth was known as “Aphrodite’s city.”
We live in a culture that worships aphrodite today. We have the same problems, and we have the same solution. There is nothing new under the sun.
This is a good summary!
ANTI-HERESY THREE STEP:
1. It seems an Ordained Pastor doesn't really have "authority" in a Lutheran church, given the congregational polity.
2. Also, if I understand the Lutheran liturgy, it seems the Pastor mostly just prayerfully reflects on the day's passages, offers the Eucharist, or gives an Evangelical-style Law/Gospel presentation (and ALL Christians are supposed to evangelize)
3. Therefore, it seems Women's Ordination avoids the errors in the two Epistles
I mean point one, if true, that pastors are lacking in authority in the Lutheran Church just means that they should be given more authority.
Point two doesn’t have relevance either because it isn’t true. Pastors are required to do more than just presided over the divine service (which isn’t much to scoff at on its own anyways as if any man is capable of doing it). They are required to be knowledgeable on matters of faith, give private absolution, comfort dying parishioners, etc.
So the conclusion really doesn’t follow from any of this.
@@kolab5620 I mean, under their own Lutheran rules, all their pastors lack an authoritative teaching role. The Bishop/Synod, Bible, congregation, and Almighty God are the only entities within their Church that can exercise authority. So if a pastor--male or female--is counseling a male parishioner, nothing said has any "weight" beyond alignment with the will of the entities above. Beyond that, the parishioner can take it or leave it, and judge for himself. So there's just nothing in a female Lutheran pastor's role that even could be forbidden by the verses Wolfmuller cited
@@ShaneShelldriick Ok whatever.
Thanks!
Well first we have to answer the question "what is a woman?"
Paul's prohibitions? First, Paul clearly in Chapter 11 of 1st Corinthians gives guidelines for women praying and prophesying (which are leadership acts) in the course of a worship servoce, so, when he later writes that women are to be silent on Chapter 14, he is not making a blanket statement, but dealing with a particular issue.
In Timothy, when he calls for a woman to not be allowed to teach or usurp the authority of a man, again, he is dealing with a specific situation within that congregation. As evidence that this is the case, just look at verse 8. Paul says that men everywhere to pray with uplifted hands. The same churches that cite verses 12-13 as binding for all time don't require their men to pray with upraised hands.
The confllict is resolved by an alternative translation, "But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband." This translation is perfectly legitimate and doesn't lead to Paul contradictimg himself.
Paul actually advocates for women in church leadership. In Romans 16, he refers to a woman named Phebe who is a Deacon in the church at Cenchrea, another named Junia who he refers to as being an apostle of note, and finally, he refers to the husband and wife ministry team of Priscilla and Aquila, specifically breaking with tradition to place the wife's name first. Most scholars note that this is probably indicative of her being the more prominent of the couple.
Paul not only doesn't condemn ir forbid women from being church leaders, he admonished three women who were serving in positions of leadership.
I don't think you meant to say "admonished"
@@PastorBryanWolfmueller It would seem that you completely missed my point which is that Paul doesn't prohibit women from either holding leadership positions nor does he issue a blanket prohibition against women speaking in church. The time has come for the mainline denominations to accept the fact that the Bible doesn't prohibit women from being church leaders or even preachers and pastors. Phebe was a female deacon, Junia was a female apostle, Phillip had multiple daughters who were prophetesses. In Corinth, Paul gave guidance on the proper etiquette for women prophesying and praying in a worship service. In the early church, the roles of women were more diverse than they are in mainline denominations today.
I'm disappointed that you just dismissed Junia without really addressing the issue of her being a woman Apostle!
The text DOES NOT SAY she was a woman apostle. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and fellow prisoners, who are highly regarded by the apostles. They were in Christ before I was". Romans 16:7 The Greek word is ἐν, which is translated as: in, on, at, by, with Junia,(and perhaps Andronicus is her husband) was highly regarded by the Apostles. There are only 12 Apostles.
Both were highly regarded 'among' not 'by' the apostles'
People who support the ordination of women forget that while God prevents 100% of women being pastors, He also prevents 95% of men from being pastors too. According to the Word, I am disqualified from the office of pastor. And that's ok.