Will you be working on your souplesse? Let us know in the comments below!👇
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I ride mtb mostly and only think about this when I'm riding technical climbs. But I do need to get more overall efficient for XC type of rides. Maybe I should consider this.
I find this take on pedal technique a bit superficial. When I'm tired during long distances, it makes a huge difference when I'm focusing on smooth pedaling, and actually pulling efficiently, which also brings extra muscle group in action! A topic you logically should focus on as well ...
I always do. When I started my PES was 20 and now it’s 35. Most of my experienced friends are around 50. You may say your legs don’t get a rest but I disagree as when you are pulling back your using totally different leg muscles. I’m as fast as anyone in a flat, downhill or with a tail wind but in a head wind or uphill my dead spot is bigger than theirs so I’m slower and I’m using mainly my quads and not enough hamstrings. That coach saying can’t consciously improve your pedaling at 90-100 rpm he is full of it. I’ve done it and I’m sure others have too.you are pulling back not pulling up so using your hamstrings.
I perfected perfect pedaling technique decades ago, and it goes like this: 1. Push down on right pedal. 2. Push down on left pedal. 3. Repeat as necessary. Amazingly, it also works if you push down on the LEFT pedal first! It also works for left handed people, people of all races, creeds and colors. This AMAZING technique also works for people who have NEVER ridden a bike before!
I've recently got in a bicycle after a 10 year hiatus, and I've to say it's been one of the greatest and most fun decisions I've made. Thanks GCN helping me fall again with cycling!
I've been riding on the road since 1986 and MTB since 1994. I also had a 5 year stint as a triathlete. I can promise you that regularly riding techy XC will do wonders for your road cycling. Not just in pedaling efficiency but in bike handling and confidence. I know not everyone is able to do it, but if you can, you absolutely should. It's also a full-body workout and some of the most fun you can have on two wheels.
Yeah I've just switched from MTBing since the 90s (with SPDs) to road cycling in the last year and all that MTB experience has really transferred well to road cycling 🙏
I don't race anymore so I don't care about my spin because I ride for health and enjoyment. However, I came from a track and road background. Track racers had the smoothest spins and overall pedaling style I saw. I found that riding rollers helped smooth out my spin more than anything else. You can see and hear imperfections in your spin as you move side to side during pedaling. Pedaling in a circular motion smoothes out the sound and decreases wobble which I found made me both a more predictable rider to others around me and made it easier for me to maneuver on my bicycle. I also found that spinning at higher RPMs helped alleviate buildup of waste in the muscles and blood because I did not push as hard on the pedals each turn of the pedals relative to those around me which I believe kept me from going into oxygen debt. What's more it was easier to accelerate compared to others as I was always in a lower gear and, with practice, I could spin at really high RPM's which allowed me to achieve high speeds in a low gear. Spinning higher RPM's did take some extra focus, but made me smoother which meant I had to focus less on others around me and where I was relative to them in a group. Spinning at high RPM's doesn't work as well, if you sprint standing up like a roadie, but overall I found more benefits in spinning at higher RPM's and smoothing out my spin compared to shifting back and forth in a big gear while turning the gears at low RPM's.
As an amputee, I can tell you that there is a difference in the power stroke on the prosthetic side. I generally can produce 1-2% more power on the prosthetic side, However, I'm still relearning how to pedal standing up. The prosthetic side almost seems dead once it hits 6:00 and I have to focus really hard to get that leg to come up on the back stroke. I also have to visualize the full stroke when seated to pedal smoothly. I was a mountain biker prior to loosing the leg and converted to a road/gravel bike post amputation. I've done over 1M pedal strokes (225 hr * 60 min/hr * 75 avg cadence) over the last 11 months and still have some learning to do.
Hats off to you brother! Not sure how / what caused you to lose your leg, but the fact that you carry onward is true courage and has the warrior spirit! 👍🏻🤘🏻
As a long time mountain biker I totally agree with the benefits. I ride MTB night ride once a week and ride road once a week with the rest of my time split between the turbo, running and swimming. I’m 57 and find that mixing it up has really helped avoid injury and also makes keeping fit (ish) fun and bearable. All that said my pedalling style is probably pretty poor! 😁
Great video. Used to obsess over technique until I realised it didn't make much difference for me. Also sucked the fun out of it stressing about it. My only comment on the advice would be to incrementally adjust saddle height rather than whack it up based on a couple of turbo tests.
Smooth and fast cadence. 30 years of mountainbiking have done the job. Interesting what Phil had to say about saddle position. Him and Bikefit James in a room would make an interesting video. Choose your fighter.
If you're mountain biking you should also consider wearing an nta helmet like xnito or bern, or even a full face helmets, those normal bike helmets don't protect you as they should
The suggestion about raising saddle height is really about reducing the hip angle at the top of the stroke. Using shorter cranks enables a slightly higher saddle while also reducing the hip angle. This allows greater power application sooner on the downstroke. It may be undetectable to some riders, but I did notice being much more comfortable during the pedal stroke and no loss of power. Gains are always very hard to measure. Two specific suggestions for any rider struggling with fit: 1) Go with the shorter crank option, 2) Move the cleat as far back as the shoe allows. Then experiment with fine tuning saddle height/setback, stem length and stem height...In that order.
@SlaveLaboringKid More important is crank length to efficient pedal stroke. Anecdotally as I see it, it's pretty 50/50 to to high to low. When I adjusted to a shorter crank length it was night and day for speed of rotation. I assume the over all pedal efficiency went up.
@SlaveLaboringKid That's not an answer. My saddle height has nothing to do with your statement that most people have saddles to high. Where is your data?
What made sense for me was to find comfort while riding. Overall the height went up the settle, while moving forward. I felt planted just enough on the back of the seat. The other thing I found by mistake was not tightening the stem bolts properly. I just felt the "right" position and there was an improvement out of nowhere.
For me the biggest improvements comes in moving between muscle groups. IE you crank out peak watts to pass someone and then you use the other muscle groups(pulling up etc) for a bit to give the major muscle groups a bit of a rest
Not only is there no perfect pedal stroke that works for everyone, there are a number of pedal strokes that any particular cyclist can use to match the need of the ride at that time, as your comment has pointed out. Kudos!
@greg lanz This comment needs more attention 👌 I've subconsciously done this for years. Works like a charm. I like to save my hamstrings (pedal pull muscles) for sprints or short to medium climbs. So when I need to use them, I use them in combination with the hams. Otherwise I use my major muscles (quads /push) for speed maintenance or spinning in saddle.
I agree that some riders sit too far back, but most of them are also too high, not too low. While I agree that there is no place to pulling up on the upstroke, this should not mean to lift the saddle to only focus on the downward movement. There is a transition of the pedal from 5pm to 7pm where the push of the glutes and quads is diminishing to leave the hamstrings to complete the lower part of the movement (the scraping phase that Lemond described). If your saddle is too high you would not have the correct hamstrings recruitment for the lowest part of the pedal movement.
@@cjohnson3836 I am Federico and I am from Rome (I live in the UK though). I made the mistake of setting the saddle too high and I found the best position following advice collected from bike fitters. I tried and it worked for me, both for comfort and performance. I can only check my own progress on Strava, for me it's easier as I commute and do the same segments all year around. Have you tried yourself? For me it was a great improvement.
@@fede1275 So your anecdote is not sufficient evidence against multiple data points of a professional fitter. Did you think that all those fitters telling you to raise the saddle may also be doing so because most of their clients end up needing to raise the saddle?
@@cjohnson3836 of course you are right, my experience is certainly not a relevant statistic. But I watched a few videos from James at bicycle a and Neil Stanbury with Cam Nichols among others that both warn against saddles being too high and the advice is towards lowering instead. That fit with my experience. I also read Phil Burt's book and also The Mid Life Cyclist and I was actually surprised to hear that the problem might be riders sitting too low. Anyway I have posted on my channel a couple of videos about saddle height and bike fit, if you have the time I would genuinely appreciate your feedback.
I feel a difference by thinking two ways. Push it down or lift it up. The lifting up thechnique seems to help to relax a bit, sometimes even getting faster. I swich between both techniques because staying in one position is exhausting.
Great topic, improving pedalling technique is something I often wonder about. On slight uphill grades or level ground into headwinds I'll often shift to the back of the seat, hold the bars in the curved portion aft of the brake hoods, and almost push forward at the top of the stroke, then drag my heel downwards. I pull with the forearms for balance. I find this engages the glutes for more power, as opposed to level ground, tailwinds or slight downhill grades where I'll shift slightly forward, hands on the brake hoods, and use the quads more. The aftward position may also push bigger gears at lower rpm, while the forward position seems better for spinning at higher rpms. I typically seem to use the forward position more often. Its nice to periodically emphasize different muscle groups throughout a ride. For the same reason I'll usually stand in the pedals and rock slightly side to side, using the upper body, on the steeper hills. I only sit on longer climbs. I hope that makes sense.
The "pedaling circles" method has been proposed, promoted, promulgated, then demoted and de-moded...but I think it's still a worthwhile concept to learn because if you think about it that way, what you eventually do may not be exactly what's being taught but it IS what is best. Musicians learn instrumental techniques in a similar fashion--they're taught to think of something in some way and even though that's not what's really going on, it nevertheless leads to changes in muscular response that lead to the desired effect.
I found smoothing my technique made a huge difference to my enjoyment and endurance. It also made me far better at hills because I wasn’t exhausting the leg muscles so much. I’m still not perfect - I don’t consider myself to be a very good cyclist even though I have competed three half iron men, but a smooth technique is just so much more pleasant than stomping, IMO. And I think you get more power for the effort you put in, too.
You push the pedal down. Fine. The big question is this: how do you lift it back up after it hits the bottom? There are two options for getting a leg back to the top again. The first one is to let it get a "free ride" back up by forcing the power leg to lift it. The other option is to make the leg lift itself. It doesn't have to pull against the pedal while rising. It doesn't need to contribute any power input, but just the fact that it doesn't drain power by being dead weight makes a big positive difference.
Yes, lifting your leg is not pulling up on the pedal stroke. The key thing here, I think, is that you can (and many people do) pedal with flat pedals and their rising leg is neither pushing down on the rising pedal nor is it lifting off of it. I would suggest it doesn't feel like effort, it feels like you're relaxing your leg after it has pushed down - making your leg feel light. Pretty much like the presenter is saying it's like each leg does an effort and gets a short recovery where it does nothing - even if it's not really doing "nothing". At that point the question then becomes what should your cadence be so you're not fatiguing your muscles by pushing too high a resistance but you're also not spinning your legs so fast that you're spending a ton of energy lifting your legs over and over (especially if we've accepted that our way of lifting legs contributes nothing to powering the bike forwards) and I guess that's a whole other video and that the conclusions would be similar that it depends on the rider, a heavier rider is perhaps going to be wasting more using a high cadence than a lighter one but equally some people are going to push a bigger gear easier than others.
I only really bother with it on climbs, but I've found it really helps to think about it less as keeping each foot smooth through the entire stroke more about being an even transition of power from one foot to the other as they enter the power portion of the stroke... this allows for resting the non-power leg without losing momentum, which is the real goal.
One thing I was unaware of for years was the correct arch and foot support inside your shoes. A pair of orthotic inserts that fit your feet will increase the contact surface/support inside your shoe and will make your feet feel so much better.
When racing long ago with toe clips and straps it was important to use a reinforced strap that wouldn't stretch. Binda was popular. This was because during an all out sprint we were pulling up so hard on the upstroke that a strap that stretched would allow your shoe to lift enough off the pedal just enough to clear the slot in the shoe cleat. This resulted in pulling your shoe out of the pedal moving upward with maximum force when you were out of the saddle. Sometimes with a disastrous result or at least losing the sprint. So I would say that a racing cyclist does develop significant force in the upstroke. The retention and float of clipless pedals has improved and enhanced this IMHO.
Have noticed when sitting more on one side of the saddle can result in slightly unbalanced left/right leg power readings. On a bike with a round seat tube it might be also worth checking if the saddle is pointing dead straight.
I'm old enough to have owned a fan based turbo trainer back in the 80s. Trying to get a steady roar out of that thing, vs a whoosh,whoosh sound, was the goal to achieve a smoother pedal stroke.
I've read this - wasn't it some Aussie based bike fit guy that was the popular one in earlier days of the internet. His schtick was pretty much the same as bike fit James, basically had his pet theory about what was wrong with everyone's bike fit and why all the other bike fitters sucked. And his thing did include this idea that you should hear a constant whirr of the old turbo trainers - but is that actually right? Does it actually matter? I seem to recall his thing was that, if your saddle was too high you'd become disconnected from the pedal stroke at the bottom and you could see this by looking at a video and seeing your knee accelerate, but later he said you could also hear it on the right kind of turbo trainer. It would cause the gap in sound rather than anything about pulling up per se. I'm sure he made plenty of money as people just accepted that he knew what he was talking about and that all the other bike fitters must be clueless as he said - with undoubtedly many people who didn't live near him lamenting the fact they couldn't get him to fit their bike. But you see in this video we have one of those other bike fitters - does he really not know what he's talking about? Somehow he's managing to get to a high level of responsibility if he doesn't. Did Chris Hoy really get bad advice but win all those medals regardless? But, in this case I kind of find myself agreeing with the guy in this video when he suggests that if you try to put a constant force into the pedals that you just get fatigued because you have no rest during the stroke. I definitely think power generation is 'push hard with your left foot' followed by 'push hard with your right foot' where the value of 'hard' really depends what gear you're in and how fast you want to go and might, much of the time, not really be hard at all - but it's the bit where your leg movement is putting power into the pedals that is propelling the bike forwards. And, for the most part you rest the leg that's not pushing, albeit I'd suggest it's more a sense of 'making the idle leg light', it's neither pulling up but not impeding the rising pedal by weighting it down either. If you had flat pedals your foot wouldn't lift off the pedal. Of course where to sit to obtain the best power is a complete mystery to me but I would argue it's a complete mystery to all of the people who will take money from you for a bike fit too - even though they probably believe they know - it's self evident if you get 3 bike fitters in a room you have 5 opinions about where the saddle should be - maybe GCN should pitch their advice against each other - get the same bike fitted by a few of them and compare? Although I imagine most of them would back down from doing that if they knew what you were doing.
Back in the seventies Eddy Soens used to get us going out on a ride and only pull on the pedals. This was to get power for 360°. I find when the sh1t hits the fan all you can do is push. The thing about using the mountain bike in the winter (and why not all year) is so true.you learn how to pull on the pedals as well as push. The best part is really hard mountain biking is so much fun. The messing around around in the woods on a Saturday with Chris Boardman and Andy Wilkinson would bring tears to your eyes, in such a good way. The Sunday ride on road bikes not so much fun. Just getting an ass kicking.
with respect, physiotherapists are not only not biomechanists, but they often do not understand the methods and measurements that biomechanists employ for their results. I am not simply talking about local clinical physiotherapists often still using disproven methods without accurate measurements, but even having access to seeing the misunderstandings by sports physios working with Olympic athletes across several different sports, and several fairly successful countries. Yet, the community, inclusing the sports community, still think of physios as first authority for anything to do with human movement.
Honestly I feel my pedalling style or even general riding style, is probably well pretty bad. But I It works for me and that is all I need to worry about.
What I have found is that smooth pedaling does two things for me. 1. It helps in short full effort situations to get a couple of percent more energy into the crank. Mostly on steep climbs or acceleration while sitting down, because I can't utilize the forward/backward motion while sprinting out of the saddle. (Out of the saddle it's just up/down movement for me) 2. It helps me to share the load across several groups of muscles and taking a couple of percent load off the quads which do the stomping motion. But over longer rides most of the time I do just stomping, stomping&pulling or sometimes on small short inclines mostly just pulling. While the round peddaling is a conscious effort for short periods of time.
You can actually injure yourself trying to perfect your pedal stroke. Phil had the BEST bit of advice: Get a professional bike fit. Have them look to see if your feet or knees are wobbling, pointing in or out. These are major power wasters. Pulling up on the up stroke is not necessarily the best thing. Floating the cross stroke is also something you can and should work on. But a vast majority of your power is in the down stroke. Work on using your large muscles during it. Glutes and Quads.
Spent years trying to pedal in circles, as that was all the rage. All it did was wreck my hip flexors and give me no end of back issues. Much happier now I just concentrate on the downstroke.
Smooth, slow grinder here. No stomp. No sprint. But then, I'm commuting/ touring/ enjoying. That said, great content again gcn and Connor!! I learned a lot and really enjoyed the deep dive. I'm more often switching to flat pedals and mountain biking shoes without the cleats. This helps support my decision! Please keep thisgreat content coming! Cheers VéloKröte.
For me, the smooth pedaling technique seems to work best for efficiency. If I focus on stomping on the pedals, I find I'm pushing down a little also on the opposite leg, which counteracts my downward push. With the smooth stroke, I'm at least neutral on the opposite leg.
Maybe worth noting, that increasing saddle height and sit further forward might be an adjustment directed mostly at people who race seriously. By sitting more forward you will likely go out of balance and put a lot more weight on your hands. Most everyday (and older!) riders do not have the necessary core strength to support this position over longer rides which will then result in a painful experience. If you don't race, and hence dont have a reason that justifies putting pain over comfort, you're probably better off, going for a position that is comfortable instead of just a tad faster. I know I'll rather be able to ride for a whole day without pain, rather than struggling after 30-60min already - even if that means I'll put out a little bit less power ;) (I know from my own experience that I can produce more power if I move the saddle forward - but the pain that puts on my wrist ist simply not worth it)
Something that seems to work for me is to constantly "imagine" that my legs are weightless. When I do this my cadence seems to go up and I feel a little less bounce. My upper body keeps a little more still as well. I don't know if this is really scientific or not, but it sure feels right.
Man, you are not alone in this. It helps a lot. As your body becomes still, all your input of power goes to the pedals. not trying to stabilize your body. Mental perceptions play a very big role.
Notes: The idea of pulling up (except for sprints and climbs) has been rejected for as long as I can remember; advise we used to give in the 80's was to simply off-weight the pedal on the upstroke but DO NOT PULL; in other words, you do not want your down stroke to have to work against your upstroke but you are not trying to provide any power on the upstroke. The most important aspect is to not be pushing when the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke (and cannot be physically moved farther down). Additionally, spin workouts on rollers is one of the most effective ways to improve smoothness because, similar to mountain biking uphill on loose soil, you can feel it when you are doing it wrong i.e. poor pedaling on rollers at high RPM's makes riding rollers very uncomfortable. However, unlike mountain biking, you are not having to deal with the differences between flat and uphill riding which does change your pedal stroke i.e. on an uphill you may need to pull more than you would on level ground simply to have something to push against because of the required force needed on the pedal; on the flats you can achieve the same smoothness without pulling. Notes on Roller spin workouts: I typically do 10 min intervals at a cadence of 90-100 RPMS with a 45 second sprint with cadences 160+ at the end of each interval; cadences during roller work should be higher than you would ride typically (especially during the roller spin sprints where cadences are far higher than would be used on the road); the focus should be on spin not speed i.e. use lower gears; a 53x21 should be about 32mph at 160 RPMS. Don't use a gear bigger than you can maintain cadence through the 5th interval. If you are not smooth, your bike will bounce on the rollers at high RPM's, giving you instant feedback on what needs correcting. The focus should be on not pushing beyond the bottom of the pedal stroke which is what causes the bounce as it causes you to raise out of the seat because the pedal cannot go farther down; instead one needs to be drawing through the bottom of the stroke. Also note that track cyclists frequently use rollers because it is very important for them to develop the smooth pedal stroke required to achieve very high RPM's because they have only one gear that they must be able to accelerate to their maximum speed.
I’ve been thinking about applying power from 3 to 9 o clock instead of 12 to 6 (put crudely). This seems to recruit the glutes more to make it less quad dominant. For me, at least, it means I don’t fatigue as quickly due to quads giving out. That may be something that is only useful to my particular type of physical dysfunction, but sharing anyway.
Honestly, this subject is something i'll never ever get bored with. I had the luck to see BW on the cycle and it was truly amazing, from what I could see you need no way saddle height, good fore/aft position, sitting well in the saddle.
I would think, as a regular cyclist, we pedal somewhere near our personal max efficiency. Obviously, many factors play a role however I feel like our pedal strokes are greatly influenced by muscle development. I would think working with your muscle development would then impact your pedal strokes based on the abilities of your legs. Just an interpretation from my own cycling journey and encounters along the way.
Fascinating stuff. Back in the "organic age" of cycling this was a huge topic. I'm curious about the potential benefits in base training (as we enter the indoor season for many of us) of varying pedalling techniques. As an example, I've noticed the more dorsiflexion and plantarflexion I engage in the stroke, the smoother the application of power and I feel significantly different neuromuscular sensations than when I execute the "piston-like" stomp. Probably the oldest topic there is in cycling but proof there's much more to learn...
2:36 that's interesting as I read something once (fairly recently) which said that your muscles are working at their best efficiency when they are working for 1/6 of the time and recovering for 5/6. When you think that even with flat pedals you are probably working through at least 120 degrees (although building up and down from peak effort during that time) it does make you wonder how much benefit clip-in pedals really bring. Clearly they do give a worthwhile benefit for people at the top end but I've been on a few group rides with flat-pedal bikes and the difference isn't that huge. I'd guess at maybe 5% give or take, but it would be interesting to see some tests on this...
Since I've moved to flats I've only noticed some loss of power when powering up a steep hill. And the bunny hops don't work so jumping curbs results in snake bite flats, because you think you are still using clipless.
As a kid racing 30 odd years ago,my coach used to always tell us to pull up & push down on the crank. It’s something i still find myself doing today when climbing hills.
I had 2 professional bike fittings in Minneapolis & St Paul at highly recommended high end bike shops. One shop used the same fitting method as Simon went through here. After employing that fitting for a month (because it was done by a professional bike fitter) I ended up going back to my original settings. I felt my seat was too low & too far back. A couple years later I went for another "professional" fitting at another shop and again they lowered my seat so that I would have the "correct" knee computer-aided fitting angle, and they moved my saddle back from where I had set it. On my next ride I experienced knee pain. After I raised my saddle back to my original seat height, the pain went away in about 20 minutes and it's been that way for at least 10 years.
I had a bike fit early this year and when it came to watching me pedal in order to make the appropriate adjustments, the fitter called out to his assistant, "Hey, this guy pedals pretty." He liked what I was doing. I didn't give it much thought at the time, and passed it off as a joke.. However if it is true that my pedal stroke was good with no expert instruction, how did it happen? I think I know why. I watched Daniel Martinez of Ineos Grenadiers. In no way am I comparing myself to a world class cyclist - none, but he helped. I spent a lot of time watching the Giro D'Italia in 2021, and for whatever reason Martinez was on the camera a lot. He always seemed to be in front of the Peloton. His unrelenting determination caught my eye at first to the point where I nicknamed him Dr. Grim. But I loved the way he pedaled. He pushed those pedals down with the power and precision of a piston in a finely tuned V8. In that race (and he finished 5th overall I think) I watched his pedaling and tried to duplicate the form - forget the strength. I don't know that I look like him when I pedal. I doubt it. But picking out a first rate cyclist and trying to emulate the technique really helped me improve a little not to mention impressing my bike fitter. No discount for that, though.
Back in the '80s, we learned that at about 90 rpm, the legs could no longer mash down with maximum contractions, but had to follow the crank around. The slow twitch muscle fibers, the aerobic delivery muscles, came into play, and you could ride at a steady pace without the need to back off and recover. So today, when the grade gets steep and cadence drops to 60-50 rpm, concentrating on following the crank around, maintaining "form," would save energy and make it to the top. It also pumps out lactic acid from the fast twitch muscles called in to assist the effort. Rider could back off to just below anaerobic threshold, and maintain power. It took me 3 years to learn the unquestionable efficiency of slow twitch pedaling. 90 rpm was the trick.
Thanks for this video, after fine tuning my saddle ( for & aft ) height and cleats on a measured hill ride I use for training on, I've now gone 2.5km further in 45 minutes than previous which was 5 days ago. Cheers.
Some people are naturals but to be honest everyone who puts the hours in improves you look ok Conor I sat behind you on the beach this year you put a big hole in there air especially on that crazy big wheeled bike😊
After many many years on track, it’s always commented on how smooth my pedalling style is - and I put this down to my time on the velodrome. However, there are some blooming fast stompers out there - I think you are who you are …
@@gcn definitely …. and best training in my opinion - track riding - followed by rollers - smart trainer doesn’t get used half as much as my rollers - maybe it’s that ability to single state train one zone at a time 🤷
I find clipping shoes and clipping peddles annoying and the issue with them is when i want to come off my bike (i just kept falling off). Anyway flat peddles with non-slip do it for me. I will not be using clip on shoes or clip peddles ever again.
Ignore Luna, they're obviously having a bad day. That's fine! Whatever lets you enjoy riding a bicycle is the best way. I will not lie though, when I started to learn to ride clipped in I struggled a few times and fell over too. It's a right of passage and everyone does it until you get used to it! Don't feel bad about it.
For the first few months have both the clips loose...then the next 3 months have your good foot loose and the other tight, so you can emergency stop fall
A factor to consider is that if power is concentrated around certain crank angles, that means that power is varying through the cycle. The bike seems to be moving at a given speed according to the average power, but actually the speed is varying slightly because the power is varying. During the part of the cycle when the speed is increasing there is an acceleration, which necessarily consumes power. Sadly the portion of the stroke's power responsible for this small acceleration is wasted, because the speed gained is given back during parts of the cycle where power is reduced and the bike is slowing down. Therefore the unevenness of the stroke implies a corresponding waste of power which can be reduced by making the stroke more round. The effect is very noticeable to me while making sustained climbs up access roads, which I do very slowly (low speed, low cadence). It's a thing I work on. Of course it has to be balanced with other factors.
I have a technique that has revolutionised long steep hills for me when I don't have a sufficiently easy gear. It involves dropping my heals and using my calf muscles like springs. May not be effective in a race except in limited conditions, but a nice trick up my trouser leg for when the going gets tough. Think kangaroo!
I'm interested by which group of carbon lifeforms Phil is referring to by "most people", whether it's the general public or (I'm assuming) the racers he's dealt with. The fitters I've come across (in person or online) who deal with anyone on the street who's into cycling (1st bike amateur through to Cat A crit racer) tend to say excessive saddle height is most common. Technique; I know I need to focus on sweeping through the bottom of the stroke more. In the half hour TT to work, loading the pedal from 11-11:30 through 'til about 8 makes SUCH a difference without (seemingly) fatiguing, I don't hear the tyre contact patch varying as much and km/h rises significantly. I also find climbing at a tempo easier to maintain once I have that rhythm to the legs.
I think the only fitter you really have an remembrance of is Francis Cade's friend on youtube. Let's be real, no one in this comment sections has any fucking clue
@@cjohnson3836 Whilst James Thomas is one source so too is Neill Stanbury who says it very common on those who've done motion tracking fits. Steve Hogg, an article in an AUS cycling mag stated same, as did Paul Traynor in conversation whilst doing my bike fit. Also two rando's at the feed stop in Tharwa during a Fitz Challenge (Old Mate had Young Mate under his wing trying show what to look for with different issues. Half a doz of my mates (physios) have mentioned at the end of MS Gong Rides a surprise of just how many people rock excessively on their saddles. That's just from part of my microcosm of the world. But please internet stranger, inform me of what I do and don't recall.
@@cjohnson3836 I know it's anecdotal, hence why i was asking in the first place. Phil Burt has spent 12 years with British Cycling as top dog for what he does, his last decade of experience is going to be skewed towards elite athletes rather than every day punters. There was a referenced source? Timestamp pls, i must have missed it. If you're saying Phil is the referenced source because of 12yrs with B.C. the same can be said of Steve Hogg here in AUS who spent some 20odd years fitting our pro's to track and road success.
I'm only going by what I can feel but I'm mainly a stomper especially when going up a hill standing up. If I'm going up a hill seated, I can feel my legs doing some pulling up action but if I'm on a certain flat section I feel my legs cycling evenly putting in a smooth effort which makes me feel like a pro lol.
I seem to draw a different geometric shape every time I ride. Last week I think I even drew and octagon! So it was great to hear that the perfect pedal stroke may be different for everyone. Next I think I'll try a triangle!!!
#askgcn Very interesting. I would however also like to know the "best" way of using your foot. Should you keep your ankle fixed in 90 degree angle or rotate it and follow through the stroke? I know the common "wisdom" about stiff soles but find my feet are getting sooner tired in my stiff roadshoes than in softer shoes on my MTB, why?
Personally I keep the ankle locked when the most power is generated in the downstroke. This way you get the best power and less calf fatigue, especially when your cleats are towards the back. The ankle can move on the lowest part of the movement, where your hamstrings help the transition between 5pm to 7pm. I had my toe finger in pain when I had the cleats forward, not anymore with the cleats backwards even with stiff shoes.
I added clipless pedals to my MTB recently thus allowing me to produce power now around 360deg crank angle, and while it feels better and indeed as if a but more power would go into the cranks, I feel it isn’t *that* much more; however, spinning at 90rpm feels more secure now, and occasionally doing periods of focussed 360deg full cycle stroke ie including pulling upwards/fwd/dwn/backwards might eventually lead to a more round style.
This explains why switching to flat/platform pedals didn't seem to slow down my commute time which is essentially a time trial; start out at a reasonable pace but can't help smashin' it by the end. I just know I can't race like that, can't close gaps, can't sprint right until clipped in. Fortunately I don't care to do either anymore.
When indoor training (on ERG), train on a small gear. You will notice that a training will become much harder. The flywheel has less inertia and doesn't help overcome the deadspot ass much. It will help you become a better climber, get that torque better. Just don't quit the small gearing, all winter.
I use toe clips and stiff approach/rock climbing shoes (FiveTen Guide Tennies). I like pulling on the upstroke (ooo matron!) but don't always. Have thought a lot about ankle position and sometimes I drop my heels for a minute to stretch calves. At the end of the day though, as long as da pedals go round, de bike be moving forwards.
@@gcn Thanks. Bunny-hopping a cattle grid while descending the Sychnant Pass at 30mph+ will never get old. I'm loving it! Keep up the great work on your channel, cheers.
Great vid! I'd love you to get the view from the guys at WattBike. On the WattBike there's a graphic that shows your pedal stroke in that instance, it's amazing to see how tiny changes you make as a rider (which can be made at high cadence I think) are instantly reflected in that graphic. They use and promote a Pedalling Effectiveness Score so they must believe there's such a thing as an optimal / perfect pedal stroke...
What about Cruzbike recumbent with the moving bottom bracket front wheel drive design? Since the pedals turn with the steering, you are forced to pedal smoothly if you want to go straight.
This confirms my experience, it's all about getting that power down any way you can. Interesting to hear it confirmed, a smooth pedaling technique is great for spinning in an easier gear but when it comes to the crunch it's all about getting the max power down and that always ends up grinding a gear that's almost too hard but still grinding it faster than whoever you compete with at the time.
My primary bike for 30 years was a fixed wheel and you soon to relax on every pedal stroke and let the flywheel effect of the rear wheel carry you through the dead part
I can't read all the comments so apologies if I'm repeating someone else's comments - back in the day they used to talk about 'ankling' being most efficient. So what's that then? Is that like trying to apply power through each quarter of the circle?
regarding stomping pedal motion. I wonder if this is why magnetic turbo trainers feel hard? the constant fluctuation in torque is resisted by eddie currents. Maybe smoother pedalers fair better on turbo trainers?
@@kidShibuya fools say foolish things... me ex-Olympian 1KM TT.....23 fastest in the world....and you? Still racing your chihuahua?? Toe clips give around 30% more power and efficiency and cardio, after the 1st year.....
The use of the hamstring muscle was a game changer for me. Before it was only quads now just by strapping I gained considerable amount of power. Especially on the sprint
I found that learning to flex my ankles in the “scrape” phase gave me some 20 extra Watts. But the price was that, especially when fatigued, I was much more prone to cramp. Difficult trade-off!
I went to Newport velodrome as a mainly MTBer. The coach immediately identified this and could tell the difference between my stompy pedalling and the souplesse of my road based colleagues. I seem to benefit from the drills on Zwift and the Sufferfest. Maybe it’s all mental. Get Ollie to test it!
Ho ho wait a minute. Definitely able to consciously think about my pedalling technique at 100 rpm and change it as i go. It was hard in de beginning to focus on both legs simultaneously while they’re at the opposite end of the movement. But with some practice its really doable. It’s something i do now when i get bored. Or when i try to push for the final minutes of an interval or KOM to squeeze the last bits of energy out of the legs.
@@cjohnson3836 I'm really wondering what part of my comment made you make that assumption... actually i'm quite a civilised cyclist and my bike handling skills are great.
So in summery, train on a MTB for better power transference, and pulling up does very little to add to your overall power output (probably flat pedals are good enough)
i notice quite a big improvement in power and speed if i conciously pull on the pedals while keeping the same position and rpm, however i also fatigue much more quickly as your legs seem to be putting out power constantly instead of having those tiny rest in between. it can probably be trained to endure the movement for longer, but i don't feel its sustainable for very long periods of time. Perhaps it could help to establish a break-away, and settle into your normal technique afterwards
When I'm on the turbo and pedal without thinking i have a certain HR at a given cadence, if i start trying to pedal the whole stroke i get a 5 bpm HR increase, same wattage.
9:15 Phil mentions "pulling up" with the hip flexors, and how the muscles are too small to be of significant importance. I think I both agree and disagree with this statement. I would agree with him that these muscles will never be the powerhouse of your pedaling. However, in muscle training, support muscle and secondary muscle training is very important for the overall efficiency of the musculoskeletal system. I disagree with the implication that training the hip flexors makes no difference, and can be completely ignored. I would think a better way to have stated this would be to not get carried away training yourself to pull up on the pedals, and to train this muscle group sparingly as a secondary muscle to the quads and glutes.
I've been wondering if having the cleat in the bottom of your heel and pedalling like a dork would be the most efficient (given that the bike geometry and fit would be with that in mind)
Related question: when sprinting to the finish you can see riders throw the bike back and forth (left to right) as they pedal with maximum force, but does this lead to inefficient biomechanics?
Super fascinated if you can do more coverage in deeper and deeper detail about the biomechanics and not shying away from maths. There are some good channels with mechanical engineers explaining how our legs are like a “four bar linkage” operating as a pair to generate torque.
Have them on my ergo - wouldn't, though, try them on a road bike... Helps to work on asymmetry, and souplesse, but to avoid asymmetry, power meters have replaced them... usually use them "straight". Actually, main reason buying them back the days was that they would fit the ergo, and have 180mm, which I still prefer over 175 (inner leg length 95cm)...
I have heard and watched many 'pedaling videos' and they all seem to say the same thing; flat pedals are not that much less efficient than being 'clipped in'. I prefer a barefoot shoe, platform pedals, with toe clips on my street bike. Flat pedals on my commuter but always allow my feet maximum articulation and width with barefoot trail shoes.
A problem may be having pedal pressure on the upstroke when fatigued so the downstroke leg has to help the other leg to uplift. That's something to watch for.
Smooth operator, I started with mountain biking for 5 years in the muds of Costa Rica before ever getting on a road bike. It’s insane how much the smooth pedaling stays with you even on the road 🤣💪🏾
Glutes are the Prime Movers. Quads are secondaries. Calves stabilise the foot. Max power is produced with the butt floating above the nose of the saddle. In a nutshell, pull the knee down with the buttocks, let the quads help.
One of the most interesting video you did, cheers! Everytime I get on the bike I cannot avoid thinking about that pulling up the leg and wether it's really efficient or not, not to mention it feels weird technically to me...
Pulling up on the backstroke IS weird. Pedal at 90 rpm and you can forget pulling up. The legs naturally follow the crank around. Hips, butt, hamstrings come into play, the quads don't have enough time to tighten up, and aerobic fitness increases, the whole point!
Mountain bike effort here. 7 seconds all-out effort, up a very step section. Garmin Connect telling me power phase starting at 356 and ending at 203. I'm guessing 356 means 4 degrees before TDC and 203 means 23 degrees after BDC??
I pull up on my clip ons to switch the muscle group, or just to let my thighs recover, I do this hiking as well, but it’s more like I concentrate on straightening my leg with each step
After riding between 10-12 thousand miles, I feel like I’m finally learning how to pedal. The technique of scraping the mud off my feet has really improved my speed and smoothness. Pulling up on the stroke really started killing my knees.
Will you be working on your souplesse? Let us know in the comments below!👇
I ride mtb mostly and only think about this when I'm riding technical climbs. But I do need to get more overall efficient for XC type of rides. Maybe I should consider this.
I find this take on pedal technique a bit superficial. When I'm tired during long distances, it makes a huge difference when I'm focusing on smooth pedaling, and actually pulling efficiently, which also brings extra muscle group in action! A topic you logically should focus on as well ...
Gravel seems a good plan not MTB😅
I always do. When I started my PES was 20 and now it’s 35. Most of my experienced friends are around 50. You may say your legs don’t get a rest but I disagree as when you are pulling back your using totally different leg muscles.
I’m as fast as anyone in a flat, downhill or with a tail wind but in a head wind or uphill my dead spot is bigger than theirs so I’m slower and I’m using mainly my quads and not enough hamstrings.
That coach saying can’t consciously improve your pedaling at 90-100 rpm he is full of it. I’ve done it and I’m sure others have too.you are pulling back not pulling up so using your hamstrings.
I started focusing just on the pull up phase and I made good improvements. It would make a good video ... push, scrape or pull.
I perfected perfect pedaling technique decades ago, and it goes like this:
1. Push down on right pedal.
2. Push down on left pedal.
3. Repeat as necessary.
Amazingly, it also works if you push down on the LEFT pedal first! It also works for left handed people, people of all races, creeds and colors. This AMAZING technique also works for people who have NEVER ridden a bike before!
Amazing. This works for so well too......
Exactly. Today's cycling is so much in detail that it verges on the absurd. Just fu©king push on those pedals what is more simple than that? Why make simple things complicated? To fill in UA-cam episodes I guess. Oh well ....
You're going to be struggling in groups where riders are pulling up at the same time xD
Do these instructions apply to left footed people too?
You're a hero!
I've recently got in a bicycle after a 10 year hiatus, and I've to say it's been one of the greatest and most fun decisions I've made. Thanks GCN helping me fall again with cycling!
I've been riding on the road since 1986 and MTB since 1994. I also had a 5 year stint as a triathlete. I can promise you that regularly riding techy XC will do wonders for your road cycling. Not just in pedaling efficiency but in bike handling and confidence. I know not everyone is able to do it, but if you can, you absolutely should. It's also a full-body workout and some of the most fun you can have on two wheels.
Yes indeed
Perfect description of it. A full body workout indeed.
Cross training can really help with bike handling 🙌
It builds core strength, too.
Yeah I've just switched from MTBing since the 90s (with SPDs) to road cycling in the last year and all that MTB experience has really transferred well to road cycling 🙏
I don't race anymore so I don't care about my spin because I ride for health and enjoyment. However, I came from a track and road background. Track racers had the smoothest spins and overall pedaling style I saw.
I found that riding rollers helped smooth out my spin more than anything else. You can see and hear imperfections in your spin as you move side to side during pedaling. Pedaling in a circular motion smoothes out the sound and decreases wobble which I found made me both a more predictable rider to others around me and made it easier for me to maneuver on my bicycle.
I also found that spinning at higher RPMs helped alleviate buildup of waste in the muscles and blood because I did not push as hard on the pedals each turn of the pedals relative to those around me which I believe kept me from going into oxygen debt. What's more it was easier to accelerate compared to others as I was always in a lower gear and, with practice, I could spin at really high RPM's which allowed me to achieve high speeds in a low gear. Spinning higher RPM's did take some extra focus, but made me smoother which meant I had to focus less on others around me and where I was relative to them in a group. Spinning at high RPM's doesn't work as well, if you sprint standing up like a roadie, but overall I found more benefits in spinning at higher RPM's and smoothing out my spin compared to shifting back and forth in a big gear while turning the gears at low RPM's.
As an amputee, I can tell you that there is a difference in the power stroke on the prosthetic side. I generally can produce 1-2% more power on the prosthetic side, However, I'm still relearning how to pedal standing up. The prosthetic side almost seems dead once it hits 6:00 and I have to focus really hard to get that leg to come up on the back stroke. I also have to visualize the full stroke when seated to pedal smoothly. I was a mountain biker prior to loosing the leg and converted to a road/gravel bike post amputation. I've done over 1M pedal strokes (225 hr * 60 min/hr * 75 avg cadence) over the last 11 months and still have some learning to do.
Hats off to you brother! Not sure how / what caused you to lose your leg, but the fact that you carry onward is true courage and has the warrior spirit! 👍🏻🤘🏻
right on dude. make your dreams happen!
Salute to you and the enthusiasm you have for cycling
As a long time mountain biker I totally agree with the benefits. I ride MTB night ride once a week and ride road once a week with the rest of my time split between the turbo, running and swimming. I’m 57 and find that mixing it up has really helped avoid injury and also makes keeping fit (ish) fun and bearable. All that said my pedalling style is probably pretty poor! 😁
As long as you're enjoying yourself and avoiding injury, that's all the matters! 🙌
51 myself but variety of stimulus is very well stimulating.
Great video. Used to obsess over technique until I realised it didn't make much difference for me. Also sucked the fun out of it stressing about it. My only comment on the advice would be to incrementally adjust saddle height rather than whack it up based on a couple of turbo tests.
Basically never ever thought of this
Great advice! Little adjustments at a time are always worthwhile 👍
I think it’s important to emphasize that for 99% of all riders just getting out and riding is the most important thing you can do to get better
I've adjusted my saddle height a n d moved the saddle forward with a straight (0 degrees) seatpost. Worked well for me.
Smooth and fast cadence. 30 years of mountainbiking have done the job. Interesting what Phil had to say about saddle position. Him and Bikefit James in a room would make an interesting video. Choose your fighter.
If you're mountain biking you should also consider wearing an nta helmet like xnito or bern, or even a full face helmets, those normal bike helmets don't protect you as they should
The suggestion about raising saddle height is really about reducing the hip angle at the top of the stroke. Using shorter cranks enables a slightly higher saddle while also reducing the hip angle. This allows greater power application sooner on the downstroke. It may be undetectable to some riders, but I did notice being much more comfortable during the pedal stroke and no loss of power. Gains are always very hard to measure.
Two specific suggestions for any rider struggling with fit: 1) Go with the shorter crank option, 2) Move the cleat as far back as the shoe allows. Then experiment with fine tuning saddle height/setback, stem length and stem height...In that order.
You should have rhe ball of your foot over your pedal axle. Good rule of thumb 👍
@SlaveLaboringKid More important is crank length to efficient pedal stroke. Anecdotally as I see it, it's pretty 50/50 to to high to low. When I adjusted to a shorter crank length it was night and day for speed of rotation. I assume the over all pedal efficiency went up.
@SlaveLaboringKid You got a source for that other than Francis Cade's friend on video?
@SlaveLaboringKid That's not an answer. My saddle height has nothing to do with your statement that most people have saddles to high. Where is your data?
@@cjohnson3836 The answer is that most people he sees...it's not a "data" claim.
What made sense for me was to find comfort while riding. Overall the height went up the settle, while moving forward. I felt planted just enough on the back of the seat. The other thing I found by mistake was not tightening the stem bolts properly. I just felt the "right" position and there was an improvement out of nowhere.
For me the biggest improvements comes in moving between muscle groups. IE you crank out peak watts to pass someone and then you use the other muscle groups(pulling up etc) for a bit to give the major muscle groups a bit of a rest
Not only is there no perfect pedal stroke that works for everyone, there are a number of pedal strokes that any particular cyclist can use to match the need of the ride at that time, as your comment has pointed out. Kudos!
@greg lanz
This comment needs more attention 👌
I've subconsciously done this for years. Works like a charm.
I like to save my hamstrings (pedal pull muscles) for sprints or short to medium climbs. So when I need to use them, I use them in combination with the hams.
Otherwise I use my major muscles (quads /push) for speed maintenance or spinning in saddle.
Great advice here ❤
I agree that some riders sit too far back, but most of them are also too high, not too low. While I agree that there is no place to pulling up on the upstroke, this should not mean to lift the saddle to only focus on the downward movement. There is a transition of the pedal from 5pm to 7pm where the push of the glutes and quads is diminishing to leave the hamstrings to complete the lower part of the movement (the scraping phase that Lemond described). If your saddle is too high you would not have the correct hamstrings recruitment for the lowest part of the pedal movement.
And who are you? From where is your data? Why should we believe your assertion of saddle height?
@@cjohnson3836 I am Federico and I am from Rome (I live in the UK though). I made the mistake of setting the saddle too high and I found the best position following advice collected from bike fitters. I tried and it worked for me, both for comfort and performance. I can only check my own progress on Strava, for me it's easier as I commute and do the same segments all year around. Have you tried yourself? For me it was a great improvement.
@@fede1275 So your anecdote is not sufficient evidence against multiple data points of a professional fitter. Did you think that all those fitters telling you to raise the saddle may also be doing so because most of their clients end up needing to raise the saddle?
@@cjohnson3836 of course you are right, my experience is certainly not a relevant statistic. But I watched a few videos from James at bicycle a and Neil Stanbury with Cam Nichols among others that both warn against saddles being too high and the advice is towards lowering instead. That fit with my experience. I also read Phil Burt's book and also The Mid Life Cyclist and I was actually surprised to hear that the problem might be riders sitting too low. Anyway I have posted on my channel a couple of videos about saddle height and bike fit, if you have the time I would genuinely appreciate your feedback.
I feel a difference by thinking two ways. Push it down or lift it up. The lifting up thechnique seems to help to relax a bit, sometimes even getting faster. I swich between both techniques because staying in one position is exhausting.
Great topic, improving pedalling technique is something I often wonder about. On slight uphill grades or level ground into headwinds I'll often shift to the back of the seat, hold the bars in the curved portion aft of the brake hoods, and almost push forward at the top of the stroke, then drag my heel downwards. I pull with the forearms for balance. I find this engages the glutes for more power, as opposed to level ground, tailwinds or slight downhill grades where I'll shift slightly forward, hands on the brake hoods, and use the quads more. The aftward position may also push bigger gears at lower rpm, while the forward position seems better for spinning at higher rpms. I typically seem to use the forward position more often. Its nice to periodically emphasize different muscle groups throughout a ride. For the same reason I'll usually stand in the pedals and rock slightly side to side, using the upper body, on the steeper hills. I only sit on longer climbs. I hope that makes sense.
The "pedaling circles" method has been proposed, promoted, promulgated, then demoted and de-moded...but I think it's still a worthwhile concept to learn because if you think about it that way, what you eventually do may not be exactly what's being taught but it IS what is best. Musicians learn instrumental techniques in a similar fashion--they're taught to think of something in some way and even though that's not what's really going on, it nevertheless leads to changes in muscular response that lead to the desired effect.
It's a great habit to learn!
Ride a fixed or single speed too, especially on hills it helps instill a good "turn of the pedals"
I found smoothing my technique made a huge difference to my enjoyment and endurance. It also made me far better at hills because I wasn’t exhausting the leg muscles so much. I’m still not perfect - I don’t consider myself to be a very good cyclist even though I have competed three half iron men, but a smooth technique is just so much more pleasant than stomping, IMO. And I think you get more power for the effort you put in, too.
Great to hear you've had good results from smooth pedalling! 👍
Yeah I also found going uphill with circled applied power help efficiency and endurance. Not so much on flats (weirdly).
@@JeanFrancoisDesrosiers very interesting 🤔
@@gcn thanks. Just the rest I need to work on now 😂
You push the pedal down. Fine.
The big question is this: how do you lift it back up after it hits the bottom?
There are two options for getting a leg back to the top again.
The first one is to let it get a "free ride" back up by forcing the power leg to lift it.
The other option is to make the leg lift itself. It doesn't have to pull against the pedal while rising. It doesn't need to contribute any power input, but just the fact that it doesn't drain power by being dead weight makes a big positive difference.
Yes, lifting your leg is not pulling up on the pedal stroke. The key thing here, I think, is that you can (and many people do) pedal with flat pedals and their rising leg is neither pushing down on the rising pedal nor is it lifting off of it. I would suggest it doesn't feel like effort, it feels like you're relaxing your leg after it has pushed down - making your leg feel light. Pretty much like the presenter is saying it's like each leg does an effort and gets a short recovery where it does nothing - even if it's not really doing "nothing". At that point the question then becomes what should your cadence be so you're not fatiguing your muscles by pushing too high a resistance but you're also not spinning your legs so fast that you're spending a ton of energy lifting your legs over and over (especially if we've accepted that our way of lifting legs contributes nothing to powering the bike forwards) and I guess that's a whole other video and that the conclusions would be similar that it depends on the rider, a heavier rider is perhaps going to be wasting more using a high cadence than a lighter one but equally some people are going to push a bigger gear easier than others.
I only really bother with it on climbs, but I've found it really helps to think about it less as keeping each foot smooth through the entire stroke more about being an even transition of power from one foot to the other as they enter the power portion of the stroke... this allows for resting the non-power leg without losing momentum, which is the real goal.
One thing I was unaware of for years was the correct arch and foot support inside your shoes. A pair of orthotic inserts that fit your feet will increase the contact surface/support inside your shoe and will make your feet feel so much better.
Well fitted shoes can make all the difference 🙌
When racing long ago with toe clips and straps it was important to use a reinforced strap that wouldn't stretch. Binda was popular. This was because during an all out sprint we were pulling up so hard on the upstroke that a strap that stretched would allow your shoe to lift enough off the pedal just enough to clear the slot in the shoe cleat. This resulted in pulling your shoe out of the pedal moving upward with maximum force when you were out of the saddle. Sometimes with a disastrous result or at least losing the sprint. So I would say that a racing cyclist does develop significant force in the upstroke. The retention and float of clipless pedals has improved and enhanced this IMHO.
Have noticed when sitting more on one side of the saddle can result in slightly unbalanced left/right leg power readings.
On a bike with a round seat tube it might be also worth checking if the saddle is pointing dead straight.
I'm old enough to have owned a fan based turbo trainer back in the 80s. Trying to get a steady roar out of that thing, vs a whoosh,whoosh sound, was the goal to achieve a smoother pedal stroke.
I've read this - wasn't it some Aussie based bike fit guy that was the popular one in earlier days of the internet. His schtick was pretty much the same as bike fit James, basically had his pet theory about what was wrong with everyone's bike fit and why all the other bike fitters sucked. And his thing did include this idea that you should hear a constant whirr of the old turbo trainers - but is that actually right? Does it actually matter? I seem to recall his thing was that, if your saddle was too high you'd become disconnected from the pedal stroke at the bottom and you could see this by looking at a video and seeing your knee accelerate, but later he said you could also hear it on the right kind of turbo trainer. It would cause the gap in sound rather than anything about pulling up per se. I'm sure he made plenty of money as people just accepted that he knew what he was talking about and that all the other bike fitters must be clueless as he said - with undoubtedly many people who didn't live near him lamenting the fact they couldn't get him to fit their bike.
But you see in this video we have one of those other bike fitters - does he really not know what he's talking about? Somehow he's managing to get to a high level of responsibility if he doesn't. Did Chris Hoy really get bad advice but win all those medals regardless?
But, in this case I kind of find myself agreeing with the guy in this video when he suggests that if you try to put a constant force into the pedals that you just get fatigued because you have no rest during the stroke. I definitely think power generation is 'push hard with your left foot' followed by 'push hard with your right foot' where the value of 'hard' really depends what gear you're in and how fast you want to go and might, much of the time, not really be hard at all - but it's the bit where your leg movement is putting power into the pedals that is propelling the bike forwards.
And, for the most part you rest the leg that's not pushing, albeit I'd suggest it's more a sense of 'making the idle leg light', it's neither pulling up but not impeding the rising pedal by weighting it down either. If you had flat pedals your foot wouldn't lift off the pedal.
Of course where to sit to obtain the best power is a complete mystery to me but I would argue it's a complete mystery to all of the people who will take money from you for a bike fit too - even though they probably believe they know - it's self evident if you get 3 bike fitters in a room you have 5 opinions about where the saddle should be - maybe GCN should pitch their advice against each other - get the same bike fitted by a few of them and compare? Although I imagine most of them would back down from doing that if they knew what you were doing.
Back in the seventies Eddy Soens used to get us going out on a ride and only pull on the pedals. This was to get power for 360°. I find when the sh1t hits the fan all you can do is push.
The thing about using the mountain bike in the winter (and why not all year) is so true.you learn how to pull on the pedals as well as push. The best part is really hard mountain biking is so much fun. The messing around around in the woods on a Saturday with Chris Boardman and Andy Wilkinson would bring tears to your eyes, in such a good way. The Sunday ride on road bikes not so much fun. Just getting an ass kicking.
with respect, physiotherapists are not only not biomechanists, but they often do not understand the methods and measurements that biomechanists employ for their results. I am not simply talking about local clinical physiotherapists often still using disproven methods without accurate measurements, but even having access to seeing the misunderstandings by sports physios working with Olympic athletes across several different sports, and several fairly successful countries. Yet, the community, inclusing the sports community, still think of physios as first authority for anything to do with human movement.
Honestly I feel my pedalling style or even general riding style, is probably well pretty bad. But I It works for me and that is all I need to worry about.
What I have found is that smooth pedaling does two things for me.
1. It helps in short full effort situations to get a couple of percent more energy into the crank. Mostly on steep climbs or acceleration while sitting down, because I can't utilize the forward/backward motion while sprinting out of the saddle. (Out of the saddle it's just up/down movement for me)
2. It helps me to share the load across several groups of muscles and taking a couple of percent load off the quads which do the stomping motion.
But over longer rides most of the time I do just stomping, stomping&pulling or sometimes on small short inclines mostly just pulling. While the round peddaling is a conscious effort for short periods of time.
You can actually injure yourself trying to perfect your pedal stroke. Phil had the BEST bit of advice: Get a professional bike fit. Have them look to see if your feet or knees are wobbling, pointing in or out. These are major power wasters. Pulling up on the up stroke is not necessarily the best thing. Floating the cross stroke is also something you can and should work on. But a vast majority of your power is in the down stroke. Work on using your large muscles during it. Glutes and Quads.
Spent years trying to pedal in circles, as that was all the rage. All it did was wreck my hip flexors and give me no end of back issues. Much happier now I just concentrate on the downstroke.
Smooth, slow grinder here. No stomp. No sprint. But then, I'm commuting/ touring/ enjoying. That said, great content again gcn and Connor!! I learned a lot and really enjoyed the deep dive. I'm more often switching to flat pedals and mountain biking shoes without the cleats. This helps support my decision! Please keep thisgreat content coming! Cheers VéloKröte.
For me, the smooth pedaling technique seems to work best for efficiency. If I focus on stomping on the pedals, I find I'm pushing down a little also on the opposite leg, which counteracts my downward push. With the smooth stroke, I'm at least neutral on the opposite leg.
Great to hear you are playing around with it Jeff, always best to find what works for you!
Maybe worth noting, that increasing saddle height and sit further forward might be an adjustment directed mostly at people who race seriously. By sitting more forward you will likely go out of balance and put a lot more weight on your hands. Most everyday (and older!) riders do not have the necessary core strength to support this position over longer rides which will then result in a painful experience. If you don't race, and hence dont have a reason that justifies putting pain over comfort, you're probably better off, going for a position that is comfortable instead of just a tad faster.
I know I'll rather be able to ride for a whole day without pain, rather than struggling after 30-60min already - even if that means I'll put out a little bit less power ;)
(I know from my own experience that I can produce more power if I move the saddle forward - but the pain that puts on my wrist ist simply not worth it)
そうですね．毎日サイクリングするには楽に走ることです．
74歳の老体なのでワンペタで回復するために180度近辺のハムストリングで「泥を地面で拭う」ことに集中しています．
Something that seems to work for me is to constantly "imagine" that my legs are weightless. When I do this my cadence seems to go up and I feel a little less bounce. My upper body keeps a little more still as well. I don't know if this is really scientific or not, but it sure feels right.
If it feels right, keep it up! 👍
Man, you are not alone in this. It helps a lot. As your body becomes still, all your input of power goes to the pedals. not trying to stabilize your body. Mental perceptions play a very big role.
Yep, I'm with you 👌
Notes: The idea of pulling up (except for sprints and climbs) has been rejected for as long as I can remember; advise we used to give in the 80's was to simply off-weight the pedal on the upstroke but DO NOT PULL; in other words, you do not want your down stroke to have to work against your upstroke but you are not trying to provide any power on the upstroke. The most important aspect is to not be pushing when the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke (and cannot be physically moved farther down).
Additionally, spin workouts on rollers is one of the most effective ways to improve smoothness because, similar to mountain biking uphill on loose soil, you can feel it when you are doing it wrong i.e. poor pedaling on rollers at high RPM's makes riding rollers very uncomfortable. However, unlike mountain biking, you are not having to deal with the differences between flat and uphill riding which does change your pedal stroke i.e. on an uphill you may need to pull more than you would on level ground simply to have something to push against because of the required force needed on the pedal; on the flats you can achieve the same smoothness without pulling.
Notes on Roller spin workouts: I typically do 10 min intervals at a cadence of 90-100 RPMS with a 45 second sprint with cadences 160+ at the end of each interval; cadences during roller work should be higher than you would ride typically (especially during the roller spin sprints where cadences are far higher than would be used on the road); the focus should be on spin not speed i.e. use lower gears; a 53x21 should be about 32mph at 160 RPMS. Don't use a gear bigger than you can maintain cadence through the 5th interval. If you are not smooth, your bike will bounce on the rollers at high RPM's, giving you instant feedback on what needs correcting. The focus should be on not pushing beyond the bottom of the pedal stroke which is what causes the bounce as it causes you to raise out of the seat because the pedal cannot go farther down; instead one needs to be drawing through the bottom of the stroke.
Also note that track cyclists frequently use rollers because it is very important for them to develop the smooth pedal stroke required to achieve very high RPM's because they have only one gear that they must be able to accelerate to their maximum speed.
Spot on!
Well said!
It's a little disappointing this comment has only 3 likes... Thanks for sharing!
I’ve been thinking about applying power from 3 to 9 o clock instead of 12 to 6 (put crudely). This seems to recruit the glutes more to make it less quad dominant. For me, at least, it means I don’t fatigue as quickly due to quads giving out. That may be something that is only useful to my particular type of physical dysfunction, but sharing anyway.
This scraping technique has worked well for me as well. Quad burnout used to be a major cause for poor ride performance over longer distances
Yeap. Seat tubes and seats are more front situated on triathlon bikes for this reason. Glutes are endurance muscles.
Thanks Conor , Phil and crew....I'm old , I just pedal most efficiently whilst smiling .
Along with smiling, whistling on the hardest hills, everything will be fine.. Especially your competitor's will appreciate your superior attitude 😎
@@OmmerSyssel mind games !
Honestly, this subject is something i'll never ever get bored with. I had the luck to see BW on the cycle and it was truly amazing, from what I could see you need no way saddle height, good fore/aft position, sitting well in the saddle.
I would think, as a regular cyclist, we pedal somewhere near our personal max efficiency. Obviously, many factors play a role however I feel like our pedal strokes are greatly influenced by muscle development. I would think working with your muscle development would then impact your pedal strokes based on the abilities of your legs. Just an interpretation from my own cycling journey and encounters along the way.
Fascinating stuff. Back in the "organic age" of cycling this was a huge topic. I'm curious about the potential benefits in base training (as we enter the indoor season for many of us) of varying pedalling techniques. As an example, I've noticed the more dorsiflexion and plantarflexion I engage in the stroke, the smoother the application of power and I feel significantly different neuromuscular sensations than when I execute the "piston-like" stomp. Probably the oldest topic there is in cycling but proof there's much more to learn...
2:36 that's interesting as I read something once (fairly recently) which said that your muscles are working at their best efficiency when they are working for 1/6 of the time and recovering for 5/6. When you think that even with flat pedals you are probably working through at least 120 degrees (although building up and down from peak effort during that time) it does make you wonder how much benefit clip-in pedals really bring.
Clearly they do give a worthwhile benefit for people at the top end but I've been on a few group rides with flat-pedal bikes and the difference isn't that huge. I'd guess at maybe 5% give or take, but it would be interesting to see some tests on this...
Since I've moved to flats I've only noticed some loss of power when powering up a steep hill.
And the bunny hops don't work so jumping curbs results in snake bite flats, because you think you are still using clipless.
自転車の拘束運動は心肺機能が優先されるだけなので，フラットペダルは自由が効くので最高だと思っています．
I have a road and a mtn bike. I highly recommend adding mtn to your training. Super fun and very different
As a kid racing 30 odd years ago,my coach used to always tell us to pull up & push down on the crank. It’s something i still find myself doing today when climbing hills.
Definitely a stomper. Love these videos explaining the science with interviews!
I had 2 professional bike fittings in Minneapolis & St Paul at highly recommended high end bike shops. One shop used the same fitting method as Simon went through here. After employing that fitting for a month (because it was done by a professional bike fitter) I ended up going back to my original settings. I felt my seat was too low & too far back. A couple years later I went for another "professional" fitting at another shop and again they lowered my seat so that I would have the "correct" knee computer-aided fitting angle, and they moved my saddle back from where I had set it. On my next ride I experienced knee pain. After I raised my saddle back to my original seat height, the pain went away in about 20 minutes and it's been that way for at least 10 years.
I had a bike fit early this year and when it came to watching me pedal in order to make the appropriate adjustments, the fitter called out to his assistant, "Hey, this guy pedals pretty." He liked what I was doing. I didn't give it much thought at the time, and passed it off as a joke.. However if it is true that my pedal stroke was good with no expert instruction, how did it happen? I think I know why. I watched Daniel Martinez of Ineos Grenadiers. In no way am I comparing myself to a world class cyclist - none, but he helped. I spent a lot of time watching the Giro D'Italia in 2021, and for whatever reason Martinez was on the camera a lot. He always seemed to be in front of the Peloton. His unrelenting determination caught my eye at first to the point where I nicknamed him Dr. Grim. But I loved the way he pedaled. He pushed those pedals down with the power and precision of a piston in a finely tuned V8. In that race (and he finished 5th overall I think) I watched his pedaling and tried to duplicate the form - forget the strength. I don't know that I look like him when I pedal. I doubt it. But picking out a first rate cyclist and trying to emulate the technique really helped me improve a little not to mention impressing my bike fitter. No discount for that, though.
Back in the '80s, we learned that at about 90 rpm, the legs could no longer mash down with maximum contractions, but had to follow the crank around. The slow twitch muscle fibers, the aerobic delivery muscles, came into play, and you could ride at a steady pace without the need to back off and recover. So today, when the grade gets steep and cadence drops to 60-50 rpm, concentrating on following the crank around, maintaining "form," would save energy and make it to the top. It also pumps out lactic acid from the fast twitch muscles called in to assist the effort. Rider could back off to just below anaerobic threshold, and maintain power. It took me 3 years to learn the unquestionable efficiency of slow twitch pedaling. 90 rpm was the trick.
Thanks for this video, after fine tuning my saddle ( for & aft ) height and cleats on a measured hill ride I use for training on, I've now gone 2.5km further in 45 minutes than previous which was 5 days ago. Cheers.
We love to hear it 🙌
@@gcn thanks you for all the hints & tips👍
Love to see a video on how to engage the glutes and just what role the glutes play
I find the pulling up after 6 o’clock a great technique when I’ve run out of gears.
It definitely gives me a power boost.
Some people are naturals but to be honest everyone who puts the hours in improves you look ok Conor I sat behind you on the beach this year you put a big hole in there air especially on that crazy big wheeled bike😊
Wonder how position for optimal power compares, in an individual, to optimal position to prevent fatigue and longer term injury.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
確実に疲れないポジでしょう．
l ve used the 3/4 stoke pedal style to generate more power when needed to maintain speed when biking around town ,and helps energize your quads too :)
After many many years on track, it’s always commented on how smooth my pedalling style is - and I put this down to my time on the velodrome. However, there are some blooming fast stompers out there - I think you are who you are …
Lots of pros that are known for smooth pedalling styles have come from the track. Do you think it has made a difference to your riding? 🤔
@@gcn definitely …. and best training in my opinion - track riding - followed by rollers - smart trainer doesn’t get used half as much as my rollers - maybe it’s that ability to single state train one zone at a time 🤷
I find clipping shoes and clipping peddles annoying and the issue with them is when i want to come off my bike (i just kept falling off). Anyway flat peddles with non-slip do it for me. I will not be using clip on shoes or clip peddles ever again.
Sad. Try again
Ignore Luna, they're obviously having a bad day.
That's fine! Whatever lets you enjoy riding a bicycle is the best way.
I will not lie though, when I started to learn to ride clipped in I struggled a few times and fell over too. It's a right of passage and everyone does it until you get used to it! Don't feel bad about it.
For the first few months have both the clips loose...then the next 3 months have your good foot loose and the other tight, so you can emergency stop fall
A factor to consider is that if power is concentrated around certain crank angles, that means that power is varying through the cycle. The bike seems to be moving at a given speed according to the average power, but actually the speed is varying slightly because the power is varying. During the part of the cycle when the speed is increasing there is an acceleration, which necessarily consumes power. Sadly the portion of the stroke's power responsible for this small acceleration is wasted, because the speed gained is given back during parts of the cycle where power is reduced and the bike is slowing down.
Therefore the unevenness of the stroke implies a corresponding waste of power which can be reduced by making the stroke more round. The effect is very noticeable to me while making sustained climbs up access roads, which I do very slowly (low speed, low cadence). It's a thing I work on. Of course it has to be balanced with other factors.
I have a technique that has revolutionised long steep hills for me when I don't have a sufficiently easy gear. It involves dropping my heals and using my calf muscles like springs. May not be effective in a race except in limited conditions, but a nice trick up my trouser leg for when the going gets tough. Think kangaroo!
Done that
I'm interested by which group of carbon lifeforms Phil is referring to by "most people", whether it's the general public or (I'm assuming) the racers he's dealt with. The fitters I've come across (in person or online) who deal with anyone on the street who's into cycling (1st bike amateur through to Cat A crit racer) tend to say excessive saddle height is most common.
Technique; I know I need to focus on sweeping through the bottom of the stroke more. In the half hour TT to work, loading the pedal from 11-11:30 through 'til about 8 makes SUCH a difference without (seemingly) fatiguing, I don't hear the tyre contact patch varying as much and km/h rises significantly.
I also find climbing at a tempo easier to maintain once I have that rhythm to the legs.
I think the only fitter you really have an remembrance of is Francis Cade's friend on youtube. Let's be real, no one in this comment sections has any fucking clue
@@cjohnson3836 Whilst James Thomas is one source so too is Neill Stanbury who says it very common on those who've done motion tracking fits.
Steve Hogg, an article in an AUS cycling mag stated same, as did Paul Traynor in conversation whilst doing my bike fit. Also two rando's at the feed stop in Tharwa during a Fitz Challenge (Old Mate had Young Mate under his wing trying show what to look for with different issues. Half a doz of my mates (physios) have mentioned at the end of MS Gong Rides a surprise of just how many people rock excessively on their saddles.
That's just from part of my microcosm of the world.
But please internet stranger, inform me of what I do and don't recall.
@@two-eyedRoy And yet, you still can't seem to grasp the difference between a referenced source vs your 2nd-hand hearsay anecdote
@@cjohnson3836 I know it's anecdotal, hence why i was asking in the first place.
Phil Burt has spent 12 years with British Cycling as top dog for what he does, his last decade of experience is going to be skewed towards elite athletes rather than every day punters.
There was a referenced source? Timestamp pls, i must have missed it. If you're saying Phil is the referenced source because of 12yrs with B.C. the same can be said of Steve Hogg here in AUS who spent some 20odd years fitting our pro's to track and road success.
I study sports science, loved the practical application of this and the opinions of the specialists involved!
Glad you enjoyed it James 🙌
I always used the foot scraping, push in a circle technique. That said, only with fixed gear just before shifting into bipedal mode!
I'm only going by what I can feel but I'm mainly a stomper especially when going up a hill standing up. If I'm going up a hill seated, I can feel my legs doing some pulling up action but if I'm on a certain flat section I feel my legs cycling evenly putting in a smooth effort which makes me feel like a pro lol.
Look pro, Feel pro! Nice one Tom🙌
Excellent - thank you for sharing your expertise and knowledge. Stay awesome!
I seem to draw a different geometric shape every time I ride. Last week I think I even drew and octagon! So it was great to hear that the perfect pedal stroke may be different for everyone. Next I think I'll try a triangle!!!
#askgcn Very interesting. I would however also like to know the "best" way of using your foot. Should you keep your ankle fixed in 90 degree angle or rotate it and follow through the stroke?
I know the common "wisdom" about stiff soles but find my feet are getting sooner tired in my stiff roadshoes than in softer shoes on my MTB, why?
Personally I keep the ankle locked when the most power is generated in the downstroke. This way you get the best power and less calf fatigue, especially when your cleats are towards the back. The ankle can move on the lowest part of the movement, where your hamstrings help the transition between 5pm to 7pm. I had my toe finger in pain when I had the cleats forward, not anymore with the cleats backwards even with stiff shoes.
Try moving your cleats toward you're heal. I have mine back as far as they will go, I do have 12 inch feet.
I added clipless pedals to my MTB recently thus allowing me to produce power now around 360deg crank angle, and while it feels better and indeed as if a but more power would go into the cranks, I feel it isn’t *that* much more; however, spinning at 90rpm feels more secure now, and occasionally doing periods of focussed 360deg full cycle stroke ie including pulling upwards/fwd/dwn/backwards might eventually lead to a more round style.
This explains why switching to flat/platform pedals didn't seem to slow down my commute time which is essentially a time trial; start out at a reasonable pace but can't help smashin' it by the end. I just know I can't race like that, can't close gaps, can't sprint right until clipped in. Fortunately I don't care to do either anymore.
Can we get a link to the mountain bike video with the GCN presenters shown in this video? It looks like a hoot!
When indoor training (on ERG), train on a small gear. You will notice that a training will become much harder. The flywheel has less inertia and doesn't help overcome the deadspot ass much.
It will help you become a better climber, get that torque better. Just don't quit the small gearing, all winter.
I use toe clips and stiff approach/rock climbing shoes (FiveTen Guide Tennies). I like pulling on the upstroke (ooo matron!) but don't always. Have thought a lot about ankle position and sometimes I drop my heels for a minute to stretch calves. At the end of the day though, as long as da pedals go round, de bike be moving forwards.
You've got to find what works for you. Keep it fun 🙌
@@gcn Thanks. Bunny-hopping a cattle grid while descending the Sychnant Pass at 30mph+ will never get old. I'm loving it! Keep up the great work on your channel, cheers.
Nice looking bike Connor! Looks clean
Great vid! I'd love you to get the view from the guys at WattBike. On the WattBike there's a graphic that shows your pedal stroke in that instance, it's amazing to see how tiny changes you make as a rider (which can be made at high cadence I think) are instantly reflected in that graphic. They use and promote a Pedalling Effectiveness Score so they must believe there's such a thing as an optimal / perfect pedal stroke...
What about Cruzbike recumbent with the moving bottom bracket front wheel drive design? Since the pedals turn with the steering, you are forced to pedal smoothly if you want to go straight.
This confirms my experience, it's all about getting that power down any way you can.
Interesting to hear it confirmed, a smooth pedaling technique is great for spinning in an easier gear but when it comes to the crunch it's all about getting the max power down and that always ends up grinding a gear that's almost too hard but still grinding it faster than whoever you compete with at the time.
Did you ever bring that technique to long road rides?
Sounds like a prescription for damaging knee issues!
@@OmmerSyssel Yeah, no problem, been doing this for more than 30 years so I guess we are all different that way.
My primary bike for 30 years was a fixed wheel and you soon to relax on every pedal stroke and let the flywheel effect of the rear wheel carry you through the dead part
I can't read all the comments so apologies if I'm repeating someone else's comments - back in the day they used to talk about 'ankling' being most efficient. So what's that then? Is that like trying to apply power through each quarter of the circle?
regarding stomping pedal motion. I wonder if this is why magnetic turbo trainers feel hard? the constant fluctuation in torque is resisted by eddie currents. Maybe smoother pedalers fair better on turbo trainers?
Do you mean that by changing to clips and training for a few years to improve my technique I could be putting out an extra 10-15 watts? Game changer.
More watts, with clips
@@lunam7249 yeah gotta get that extra up to 3%
@@kidShibuya fools say foolish things... me ex-Olympian 1KM TT.....23 fastest in the world....and you? Still racing your chihuahua?? Toe clips give around 30% more power and efficiency and cardio, after the 1st year.....
The use of the hamstring muscle was a game changer for me. Before it was only quads now just by strapping I gained considerable amount of power. Especially on the sprint
I found that learning to flex my ankles in the “scrape” phase gave me some 20 extra Watts. But the price was that, especially when fatigued, I was much more prone to cramp. Difficult trade-off!
Yes 💯 it increases the likelihood of cramp big time.
It's definitely better to restrict ankle movement at higher powers for this reason/
For long events this can be really exhausting the ankle and calves. I also feel like this produces more power but only do it when sprinting.
I went to Newport velodrome as a mainly MTBer. The coach immediately identified this and could tell the difference between my stompy pedalling and the souplesse of my road based colleagues. I seem to benefit from the drills on Zwift and the Sufferfest. Maybe it’s all mental. Get Ollie to test it!
Ho ho wait a minute. Definitely able to consciously think about my pedalling technique at 100 rpm and change it as i go. It was hard in de beginning to focus on both legs simultaneously while they’re at the opposite end of the movement. But with some practice its really doable. It’s something i do now when i get bored. Or when i try to push for the final minutes of an interval or KOM to squeeze the last bits of energy out of the legs.
You're the distracted cyclist weaving back and forth across the road and plowing through stops
@@cjohnson3836 I'm really wondering what part of my comment made you make that assumption... actually i'm quite a civilised cyclist and my bike handling skills are great.
I can't say more than that: This Video Made My Day!
No cyclical arguments here. Thanks for the detailed analysis!
So in summery, train on a MTB for better power transference, and pulling up does very little to add to your overall power output (probably flat pedals are good enough)
i notice quite a big improvement in power and speed if i conciously pull on the pedals while keeping the same position and rpm, however i also fatigue much more quickly as your legs seem to be putting out power constantly instead of having those tiny rest in between. it can probably be trained to endure the movement for longer, but i don't feel its sustainable for very long periods of time. Perhaps it could help to establish a break-away, and settle into your normal technique afterwards
Really useful and interesting clip. Keep the good oil coming.
When I'm on the turbo and pedal without thinking i have a certain HR at a given cadence, if i start trying to pedal the whole stroke i get a 5 bpm HR increase, same wattage.
I was intrigued by this as I have one leg shorter than the other and wondered if adjusting my bike set up (cranks) would improve my power
9:15 Phil mentions "pulling up" with the hip flexors, and how the muscles are too small to be of significant importance. I think I both agree and disagree with this statement. I would agree with him that these muscles will never be the powerhouse of your pedaling. However, in muscle training, support muscle and secondary muscle training is very important for the overall efficiency of the musculoskeletal system. I disagree with the implication that training the hip flexors makes no difference, and can be completely ignored. I would think a better way to have stated this would be to not get carried away training yourself to pull up on the pedals, and to train this muscle group sparingly as a secondary muscle to the quads and glutes.
I've been wondering if having the cleat in the bottom of your heel and pedalling like a dork would be the most efficient (given that the bike geometry and fit would be with that in mind)
Related question: when sprinting to the finish you can see riders throw the bike back and forth (left to right) as they pedal with maximum force, but does this lead to inefficient biomechanics?
Super fascinated if you can do more coverage in deeper and deeper detail about the biomechanics and not shying away from maths.
There are some good channels with mechanical engineers explaining how our legs are like a “four bar linkage” operating as a pair to generate torque.
Interesting Idea Josh 🤔
Try powercranks. Force the upstroke due to double clutch on each crank arm.
Have them on my ergo - wouldn't, though, try them on a road bike... Helps to work on asymmetry, and souplesse, but to avoid asymmetry, power meters have replaced them... usually use them "straight". Actually, main reason buying them back the days was that they would fit the ergo, and have 180mm, which I still prefer over 175 (inner leg length 95cm)...
@@Robeuten they are great for asymmetry and tt power. I find they help train out the hip impingement
I have heard and watched many 'pedaling videos' and they all seem to say the same thing; flat pedals are not that much less efficient than being 'clipped in'. I prefer a barefoot shoe, platform pedals, with toe clips on my street bike. Flat pedals on my commuter but always allow my feet maximum articulation and width with barefoot trail shoes.
A problem may be having pedal pressure on the upstroke when fatigued so the downstroke leg has to help the other leg to uplift. That's something to watch for.
Correct 🤘🏻
Smooth operator, I started with mountain biking for 5 years in the muds of Costa Rica before ever getting on a road bike. It’s insane how much the smooth pedaling stays with you even on the road 🤣💪🏾
Thanks for sharing! do you get out on in the mud? 😎
@@gcn It's Costa Rica, we get 6 months of Tropical Thunderstorms/ Huracanes, either get to love the muddy rides or get a smart trainer haha.
Glutes are the Prime Movers. Quads are secondaries. Calves stabilise the foot.
Max power is produced with the butt floating above the nose of the saddle.
In a nutshell, pull the knee down with the buttocks, let the quads help.
One of the most interesting video you did, cheers! Everytime I get on the bike I cannot avoid thinking about that pulling up the leg and wether it's really efficient or not, not to mention it feels weird technically to me...
Pulling up on the backstroke IS weird. Pedal at 90 rpm and you can forget pulling up. The legs naturally follow the crank around. Hips, butt, hamstrings come into play, the quads don't have enough time to tighten up, and aerobic fitness increases, the whole point!
Mountain bike effort here. 7 seconds all-out effort, up a very step section. Garmin Connect telling me power phase starting at 356 and ending at 203. I'm guessing 356 means 4 degrees before TDC and 203 means 23 degrees after BDC??
I pull up on my clip ons to switch the muscle group, or just to let my thighs recover, I do this hiking as well, but it’s more like I concentrate on straightening my leg with each step
After riding between 10-12 thousand miles, I feel like I’m finally learning how to pedal. The technique of scraping the mud off my feet has really improved my speed and smoothness. Pulling up on the stroke really started killing my knees.
Regardless of what you're doing with your feet, it definitely improves performance without a mud on them.
泥を拭わないと，バックトルク区間を四頭筋で持ち上げることになりエネルギー消費すると考えています．日本人はハムストリング側の筋肉が欧米人と比べて育っていないので，踏み込みにしか使えないので「泥を地面で拭う」理想のスキルが使えず，ロードレースで貴方たちに勝つことは永遠に不可能だと考えています．
泥拭いが最高の走行技術だと確信しています．
I notice big improvements in my road biking after spending some time mountain biking.