The hidden world of animal consciousness - with David Peña-Guzmán
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- Опубліковано 9 тра 2024
- Do animals dream? Join David Peña-Guzmán as he explores behavioural and neuroscientific research on animal sleep with philosophical theories of dreaming. Watch the Q&A here: • The hidden world of an...
David's latest book 'When animals dream: the hidden world of animal consciousness' is available now: geni.us/YW7arw6
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Are humans the only dreamers on Earth? Dreams provide an invaluable window into the cognitive and emotional lives of nonhuman animals, giving us access to a seemingly inaccessible realm of human experience. From suggestions that many animals run 'reality simulations' while asleep to the profound implications for contemporary debates about animal cognition, ethics, and rights.
In this talk, discover a convincing case for animals as conscious beings and examine the thorny scientific, philosophical and ethical questions it raises.
This livestream was recorded on 28 July 2022.
David Peña-Guzmán received his PhD in Philosophy from Emory University in 2015. His dissertation, 'The rational turn in continental philosophy: Bachelard, Canguilhem, Foucault', is an interrogation of the school of historical epistemology that appeared in France sometime between the 1920s and the 1950s.
David works on historical epistemology, animal studies, phenomenology, feminist theory, bioethics, and critical social theory. His work has appeared in journals such as 'Foucault Studies', 'The Journal of French and Francophone Philosophy', and 'Hypatia'. Before joining the faculty at San Francisco State University in 2017, Dr Peña-Guzmán was a postdoc at the Centre for Evolutionary Ecology and Ethical Conservation (CEEEC) in Ontario, Canada and at the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics in Baltimore, MD.
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This has got to be one of the most fascinating RI lectures I've seen. Just the idea that animals with nervous systems that are nothing like ours might be having the same experiences raises so many questions - if you aren't blown away by the idea that bugs might have dreams too then I dunno what to say. I also really loved how the science was used in service of getting the audience to examine their own thinking and the assumptions they might be making about the world rather than just saying "hey animals dream too, isn't nature cool and beautiful?" and leaving it at that.
They lack understanding of the consequences of their actions. It is the reason we stopped taking animals to court many centuries ago.
Well, I'm definitely not "blown away". It seems reasonable on a basic level that any animal with any sensory capacity might experience some form of recurring experience of those just as long as we assume memory exists, be it merely re-experiencing or in some way re-processing them unconsciously. The cognitively (and morally) interesting aspects of a mind start far, far above the mere ability to unconsciously re-experience your past.
@@AttilaAsztalos Yeah well I bet you'd have been blown away if you weren't already making those assumptions!
@@reasonerenlightened2456 Well, they do have some understanding, more so for more complex animals. They just don't share our specific understanding. I imagine some animals might even be taught some rudimentary form of "laws" with enough training. But ya, some people tend to project human-like mental constructs onto non-human animals, and that can get a bit silly (perhaps even insulting to them, if they were to experience such a thing).
Although it should be noted that the capacity for dreaming might be the same but it does not entail the mechanism is the same nor the conscious experiences are the same across all animals.
Just to avoid humans' anthropomorphization tendency.
I have video of our cat Simon, sleeping and drinking water from the air. Tongue way out.
He did it for two days while he healed from being lost/heartbroken in our Sonoran Desert neighborhood for 2.5 weeks. When he finally showed up, as emaciated skin on bones, we nursed him to health on butter. Our neighbor offered him food and water... but it appears he went hunting for us while we were on vacation. He only dreamed about that water for those two days and never again.
Perhaps I shouldn't oversimplify. Especially given the depth Mr. Peña-Guzmañ's work. I do image he might dream of drinking frequently. But, perhaps due to his weak condition, or perhaps his depth of sleep..., there seemed to be a weaker boundary between his vivid thought, and his physical form. It could have related to an electrolyte deficiency, or simply the dehydration. I'll try to post the video of Simon on my silly channel. I'm Dan, the two minute man.
And don't get too excited. His tongue is really mostly just hanging there. Maybe it was stuck from dry mouth.
We love him dearly. And EVERY morning when I.. we see him I congratulate him on surviving the coyotes for one more night. He's a great mouser for our desert pack-rats.. I actually saw some scratches on him today. Ours are the size or movie subway rats, and do fight back, and he plays, training that keeps him fast, then he crunches their... liitle brain boxes. It's loud, I won't post that video I saw 3 days ago. Yes Simon, the Terminator of Desert Rodents, and dreamer of water.
He would hate for us to trap him inside. He has his door. Only locked when he's bandaged. Happens more than you think.
We laught at his one velociraptor hind claw. He appears to be of Aegean bloodline, famous for catching fish.
I'd recommend. Pardon the typos.
Dan
@@dang8134
He was clearly conscious that he needed water.
@@dang8134
Thanks for telling us all about your interesting experience.
I .can easily detect that you are conscious whilst writing comments.
(Assuming you are not a machine programmed to do it)
@@tedgrant2 Ted, maybe I did sound a bit robotic. Imagine me doing a DIY in 59 seconds. Dang, a digression.
It was late. I was tired. And some-what inspired, by our cats difficult and dangerous life.
I spoke to a woman last year, (not the only one). She lived in a similar environment. 27 cat's she'd had. Now, none, (or then). Anywho, she had had her heart broken for the last time. The coyote thing.
Back to dreams on someone else's post. Thanks for the interesting topic Mr. Peña-Guzmañ (I think it is.) Not visible now.
Two thumbs up.
That makes sense. I only dream of food when I fast and am really hungry
60 Seconds (maximum) after I go to bed my cat jumps on my pillow, lets herself fall aside, searches my hand with her feet - because she likes me holding one of her feet in my hand - and that's the way we usually sleep. Sometimes she's falling asleep earlier than me ... moving around as if she's chasing something, sometimes as if she's hiding ... pretty sure she's dreaming intensely in these moments.
If you have had a close relationship with a Dog you know this, they have intense dreams REM, vocalizing while asleep, leg muscles twitching in walking, running sequence and incorporating senoyy perceptions from events happening around them in deep sleep...
They lack understanding of the consequences of their actions. It is the reason we stopped taking animals to court many centuries ago.
@@reasonerenlightened2456 Some animals do have some understanding the concequences of their actions. That is in my oppinion how we can train them. They learn and remember the sting of an electric fence. My father used it to keep even geese at home. Animals and birds can in my experience remember and learn. They can reconice people and car's. Alpaca's even appear to reconice the death of one of them. I have seen that when one died the rest came and cind of said good bye. I have never seen them come to one animal like that exept when a new baby is introduced by its mother. I believe that there is some concienes in all living things allthough for some not a lot. It even stretch to plants. Yes plants have feelings.
So do cats
@reasonerenlightened2456 Taking human to court doesn't mean he understands. Maniac can just be motivated with his desires. Even if you explain someone, it may not result in enlightment of his consciousness.
Anyone with a pet could tell you that animals dream haha, funny that people really think humans are so unique, but it’s interesting to hear the research behind it
True)
You know, I remember a line from a cartoon that goes something like this: "What if it is a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" (related to global warming).
I think the need for scientific prove if animals are indeed conscious or dream or feel or have a memory, should not let us decide how we treat other beings, but the realization that the only difference between humans and other animals is in their complexity and not in their value, whatever that would be based on.
We owe them. We are the only species that could be removed from this planet without and native consequences for the rest of the ecosystem whatsoever.
Love Dr Pena-Guzman’s podcast! Looking forward to reading this book.
We have to start treating animals (humans included) way more better! We all dream, feel pleasure and pain, and have a will to survive. Its not a complicated concept
Relaxing listening
Loove David! Great talk. If you don't follow Overthink- the podcast, you are missing out!
My cats dreams all the time.
Thank you for your valuable contribution to this complex ethical discussion.
@Pushiswin Honestly it sounds more like the low level thoughts of a mind child. I'd call it dumbassive aggressive.
@@pushiswin Says the guy, presumptuously and obliviously to the victimless/harmless bit of sarcastic humor
@@pushiswin I'm not your mate, people who ask if someone is being passive aggressive don't have mates. Also you don't 'see' bad dreams they're in your mind not your eyes. Happy new year lets hope you can learn to stay in your lane this one.
They lack understanding of the consequences of their actions. It is the reason we stopped taking animals to court many centuries ago.
Perhaps only humans baffled by their dreams. Our level of intelligence means complex sub- and unconscious processes aswell. Maybe animals is in natural relation to the experience of d reaming. To us the function is too developed for us to grasp totally.
No matter what unique qualities we possess it don't elevate us above any other existence, but to ourselves. It don't automatically mean we have more value to anyone else but to ourselves. Have to learn some humility. It effects how we relate to anything or anyone.
@David Peña-Guzmán - Great lecture, thank you. I'll read your book. My only question is, are you a vegan?
Awesome
Liked and shared.
you should wake them regularly, so they know what it feels like at 4AM.
🤣😂😆
Overthink listeners unite 🎉
Watched this lecture while under the influence of ALd-52 (LSD)
Incredible stuff, absolutely fascinating
Identifying desire with the future is a brilliant idea unifying affect and cognition. Freud would have something to say about desire as a restoration of the past. Have you seen My Octopus Teacher? 0:28
Is this guy looking for more grant money? Or is he trying to sell his book?
You would think these science guys have never owned a pet! I have observed my cats, dogs the deer in my yard, and many other animals dreaming.
Every creature with a brain dreams. You don't need to dissect them, or test them in some way, just watch, it is all that's required.
I agree in terms of our everyday experience of what our animals do, but in a strict scientific context you have to admit that we are just _assuming_ that those jerking legs and muffled barks correspond to actual *dreams* as we understand them rather than random uncorrelated firings of neurons. They can't just take for granted that another being is having a particular subjective experience without being able to conclusively demonstrate it with careful observations.
@@HebaruSan OK. But then why would our dreams be considered a subjective experience while NHA “dreams” be seen as an uncorrelated firing of neurons?
Why just every creature with a brain? If the mechanical process of dreaming is ultimately electro-chemical, then why wouldn’t any being that interprets & reacts to it’s reality electro-chemically, albeit by less developed, less complicated means, be biologically forced to undergo the dreaming process during rest?
The guy is not a scientist, he’s done nothing to animals. The subject of his book is animal ethics, he’s an animal ethics advocate. He never experienced on animals, but he’s using other’s research on animals to actually prove his point that they are conscious and we should stop experimenting with them. Maybe you should watch the entire video or read his book before attacking someone who dedicated his career defending animal ethics…
All life forms on our planet and that ever have been on our planet are/were formed from the original Cell that was proto -life. That cell required three processes to be regarded as "living":- the initial forms of consciousness, self-awareness and bio electronics; over the billions of years all life forms developed differing types of physical and metaphysical behaviour that best suited their development. No matter what our differences all of earth's life forms are related.
This.
That shirt would give a cuttlefish nightmares.
@24:12 The real reason for The Planet of the Apes, Ceasar wanted Starbucks🍵☕
A few personal observations, if you don't mind.
My dreams take place in exoteric, constructed, surroundings, among people I have never met. At times it seems that I am viewing a parallel universe through the eyes of one of its inhabitants.
My nightmares are wonderfully entertaining. Seldom do I encounter cognates with, or recaps of, my daily or life experience. I literally can't wait to get back to a nightmare. I consider nightmares to be my subconscious experimenting with motivational tools for my waking hours. Biochemical entertainment that creates its own reality.
In fact, my mind has apparently constructed an alternate reality for my dreaming self to wander. No reward dreams. No punishment dreams. No direct recollections of experience.
As a poet I am concerned with constructs of logic, of emotion, of both standing back and investing myself into the lives of others.
My intelligence is an amalgam of several streams of consciousness; in that context my dreams are exactly what I expect: unfiltered stream of consciousness experiences.
Now for a curve ball.
My definition of personality: Personality is the scar tissue that grows over trauma. Trauma and our reaction to or recovery from it defines us as individuals.
Dreams seen from this perspective are reaction to - or iterpolation during - the body's natural coherent cognitive filing system indexed over its incoherent emotional response. We tune into the same show, so to speak, but our receivers and rectifiers are differently adjusted due to residual reaction to past trauma.
Why is there a chapter called "Zebrafish" when he's still talking about the cuttlefish?
👍
Interesting!
I practised lucid dreaming 20yrs it was fun. I can still do it but the pre-sleep mental routine is v taxing. Yes your last point about non human animals being able to do this is speculative and I guess will remain so unless fMRI improves vastly in the distant future.
AMAZING, he thinks there’s ethical problems with inducing nightmares in rats but cutting up a cuttlefish’s brain to see what functions are lost isn’t? WTF?!?
My thoughts exactly! Both are barbaric and needless acts, but hey, as long as the grant money keeps flowing...disgusting.
What causes me the most dis-ease is how most humans can exploit our planet to ecosystem extinction, and deny or rationalize their part in this...
The respect that humans give to the well-being of an animal is directly related to how cute the animal is. Unless the animal is especially tasty, in which case all other considerations are ignored.
@@vylbird8014 Thankfully not all humans, and hopefully we're trending away from being so shallow and selfish.
@@michaelmueller260 hope you are vegan. At least this gives us insight in the biology of these animals. Mass produced meat is way worse. Not trying to get into whataboutism, you can think that this is horrible, but I hope you realize that we treat animals way worse for way less noble reasons
Do humans trained in sign language sign in their sleep?
Probably not, in the same way that carnivorous animals don't really worry about the consciousness of the food that they eat. But it's great pretentious fun to talk gobbledygook, higher planes of existence in understanding, etc. It makes us feel like we're useful and accomplishing something. Not directed at you, directed all the woo woo people.
In my late 20’s I spent a year living in France, speaking French and eventually started dreaming in French.
I was with a group of fellow Brit’s and around the same time we started talking to each other in French too.
@@nonnobissolum Carnivorous animal here, and I at least do worry about the consciousness of my food. I care very much about the ethical treatment of all animals, especially those we raise for food. I'm fascinated with animal communication and cognition, and I've clearly observed the behavioural shift in an animal when it shifts its mental classification of you from essentially a dangerous factor of its environment to an agent, in animals as removed as lizards, when mimicking the communication they use with each other. Definitely not a woo person by any stretch, but I find it really strange that many who think of themselves as scientific sceptics positively assume a hard stance (without any evidence) against animal consciousness, language and emotional experience of the world. That stance (over the one that assumes that other animal life is at least similar to the single case we can examine the internal state of) bears the burden of proof in my eyes, since it posits a new thing (that animals are fundamentally different from us). As a software engineer who has spent their life designing systems, and constructing mental models of systems whose internal state is not directly observable, but can be inferred from the external, observed behaviour, which must be done correctly or I could never fix anything more than completely trivial bugs - it seems implausible in the extreme that any animal that has to strive against predation and compete for resources, would be a viable entity without drives (emotional experience of desire and fear), cognition (simulate/imagine actions and forecast outcomes, and pick an action in light of its goal) and memory. To positively assert the absence of these in other animals feels like wilful blindness by people who can't accept it because they're not willing to face the necessary implications.
Hello, my name is Julio. I would like to translate your UA-cam videos into Spanish. I think there are many people who would like to see your videos translated into Spanish. What do you think?
Hi Julio - we'd love you to do this for us! You can email us at richannel@ri.ac.uk
(I've never been able to say this:) Voltaire is wrong when he says we don't have control of our dreams. Take a look for "Studies in Dreams" by Mary Lucy Story-Maskelyne 1851-1961 and the many studies of lucid dreaming that arrived late-ish in the past century.
Influencing with great effort and practice is not the same as effortlessly choosing like we do with waking actions
@@HebaruSan But waking actions come from great effort and practice, unless we have forgotten our childhood.
And yet we still subject animals to atrocities, pain ,miserable needless sufferings,,,for a meal.
Take animals off your plates.
where does dream come from? its the string of fragmented events you perceive on a daily basis from the external world. you are indeed passive in observing the world.
sometimes, if if youre feeling unfortunate in your observation of the world, thats when you dream of perhaps other force in your dream world having control over you and such other dream language.
so yea nothing magical about it. the world is built in heirarchy and you somewhat unconsciously place yourself in that spectrum
ASL interpreter here - the myth of these creatures using ASL has been debunked. Thats NOT the sign for COFFEE either.
Being the new y e a r on the other hand, I will throw some more things, just for fun and in order to see where they land.
Blackouts......! (How to avoid blackouts...! (( "Well" Just like earthquakes))) (You) take important carefully calculated part's of any grid, (possibly on a tested (( of an odd number count such as 3s/5s/7s...)) of conductin lines tower's) and having made use of an identical parallel neutral line, (leaving the one uninterrupted as it should be from point to point)....!
You create coils (according to the strength of the lines, once tested) that are grounded, (possibly increasing a positive or a negative magnetic field for each coil), which will be used also at a substitution (if not applicable for the conductive lines).
At the substations (you) proceed with the same principle, but at these points (you) add electric motors or in similarity to.
One specific point would be after the transformer has decreased the power to the level needed. By doing so then the (electric motor) can be used as a safety point in case a surge of demand is required from a transformer, while simultaneously increasing the efficiency of the current in use, (similar to an upscale used at power stations, in this case from a transformer instead, making the ((electric motor)) take most of the safety and efficiency that can be controlled at different levels of demand, not possible with a transformer).
The other point is more esoteric.....! Having to do with (electric motors, or in similarity to), being connected at the ends of the different levels of coiled neutral grounded lines at the substations. These motors will be able to take and deliver much more load through the coil method and that of their composition, (in relation to a failure/wastage etc etc,) also increasing immensely the stability of the substations and as a consequence the grid, and if (the electrical motors) can be built in a battery principal/slash transformer, then (the motor's) can simultaneously be used as back up restart/system, having had no major structural damages always, which should have been prevented throughout most of the conduction line's with the (coil) method.
This way (you) save enormous amount of current, resources and money. Even in the case of paying for very expensive "battery systems" which I suspect are exactly what I have thrown just for fun and to see where it land, (presented and sold as backup "battery systems").
And that they are not (making such devices very well, but very sneaky built electric motor/transformer/battery ......!
Because the only (energy) that truly matters is the ground, there is no other energy, the other parts are different levels, degree angles, and rhythmic agitation of the ground. That is how power stations/any power stations make (what is wrongly presented as electricity), it is how earthquakes work, wether, gases, etc etc without forgetting light/sound.
Our life's (the enormous amount of various levels of agitation, on rhythm and degrees are balanced best on the ground, that of light......! Well that of light..... "Nobles" are in "search of that.
(I think a dude from the Balkans, talked about similar things not long ago. I do not know if it was before or after the y e a r).
"You" refers to "self" sufficient, "self" evolving, operating systems, known as "scientists".
In 1794 Voltaire was already dead
He explained it was a typo
What do blind (from birth) people dream?
It would be nice to listen to a neuroscientist about animal consciousness, the topic is interesting indeed. But philosophy is not a science, sorry ;)
If you want to see a dog using language, search above for "What about bunny"
"Our True Nationality is LifeKind".
BJ CHELA
Neurologic uses of dreaming are common with all creatures with a CNS. It is akin to a computer backing up and testing information, noting and triaging events that are significant to survival. Thus trauma features large even in creatures with less memory function.
We Humans are anthropocentric and distanced from environment in a way Relatively Ego'less animalia are not.
Who is more Truly Being ?
It must be debatable if man is to embrace humility consistent to his place in the Cosmos. That is actually quite Key to Human Evolution into the Larger Environment. Good Luck.
so the consciousness part was merely a click bait
nicely plaid Royal institution
Plaid? Say have you chequered this out for accuracy?
@@robinhampshire8923 thanks for pointing that out. not my mother language.
So right i was turnig vegan🌱
The only experience of consciousness I've had, is my own and I suspect you are the same.
However, I could be a fig leaf of your imagination. You have no way of checking.
So like everybody else, you believe other creatures are conscious by example.
I wonder if chimps ever daydream about what it would be like to wear clothes
Looking for a reliable academic writing center? Look no further 🎓
Surgical interventions!?
Disgusting!
It is hard to belive that high protein rich food whuch most human on planet consume once had a dream!
Wish there were some tigers,lions/big felines around to explain to them the folly they were getting them self into by munching on all of our ancestors. "Please don't eat me! I will dream about you after!"
It really isn’t.
you are a protein rich food too ;)
Hot off the press? Nope. Printing books is a different process than laser printers utilize. The books, or better "printed pages" are not hot at all. They are cold. This is already the second time that somebody referred to books as "hot off the press". That is nonsense. I hope the rest of the video will be technically correct.
It's an idiom. It need not be literally true, so long as it is in wide enough use for the meaning to be understood.
I know my dog is conscious because if he wasn't, he would not be able to bark at cars.
He can't drive, but I digest. All this proves that there must be a god.
And he needs money
Define Conscious. I'd argue nobody disputes your dog or other animals have agency based on learned behaviors from patterns and inherited instincts. I'm not pushing back necessarily, I'm genuinely curious what everyone's slightly unique definitions are for things like Consciousness, Life, Sapience, etc
@@owlredshift
I think the dictionary is the best source of definitions. That is it's raison d'etre.
Basically, if a "creature" behaves purposefully in various ways, then it is said to be conscious.
Examples are seeking food and moving away from danger. Note:- a computer is not a creature !
@@owlredshift
But there are borderline cases.
If I see a dog standing and shaking it's tail in my living room, then I suspect it is conscious.
But if I see a tree shaking it's leaves on a windy day, I don't suspect the tree is conscious.
@@owlredshift
I would add that the creature must have a brain that feeds on a supply of blood.
If the supply of blood to the brain is not sufficiently nourishing, then consciousness will be lost.
For a short time, this might have no lasting damage. Too long, and the creature might die.
@@owlredshift
If you are conscious and experienced, then I suspect I haven't told you anything new.
In that case, I'm sorry I wasted your time.
Good night and Godless.
💙 slava ukraini 💛🇺🇦🇺🇸
Jumped from mentioning ethics and morality right into surgically removing parts of animals for "testing" purposes. Might want to check your ethics and morality at that point.
You've implied that he approves of those surgical interventions. Timestamp for when he says this, please?
He’s not a scientist, he’sa philosopher. He has not participated in those studies he only used them as source material. He even mentions that his book address the ethics of animal research. The guy is an animal ethics advocate, maybe you’re targeting the wrong guy… You should watch the entire video and read his book before commenting.
@@smoguli I did watch the entire video, and I appreciate his overall perspective and thoughts on animal ethics. I just found it disturbing that while mentioning those particular procedures, no mention was given to them being ethically/morally questionable at best. I'm not "targeting" anyone. Other than that one issue, I thought it was an excellent video.
I guess you never had a dog?
in the first 15 mins you are absolutely wasting everyone's time
someone tell this guy that if chimpanzees make enough random movements in thier sleep, then some of the movements will look like ASL signs by chance lol. i should be a scientist
Who's to say that Washoe wasn't throwing out those signs at random? Perhaps it's time that the boffins roll in a bunch of typewriters for him and his comrades, who knows, they might pound out 'Hamlet' for them... long as they keep em in coffee, of course. And smokes, mustn't forget the cancer sticks - those chimps _love_ their smokes...
Doing a literature review is not doing research for a book. Interesting stuff, but you managed to pack a 20 minute talk into an hour.
i have seen this and all on going dreams in all of earth all effects to the1
Sometimes I genuinely wonder what the people writing comments such as these are thinking. Like, if he was sitting here in real life right now, and wanted to convey this thought, would he turn to me and vocalize the same word salad? Would it be coherent, instead? If so, where is the break down between the thoughts they have, how to effectively communicate thoughts that they want to share with others, and typing them out the same way?
i haveseen this type comment be4 and all video all ways havethem in all of you tubes and every channel they weird 2me
This looks from the outside a British institute ! Because more and multie more of the same ,all talk....England needs it's constitution respecting under an English Gov not a business failure called UK....this is the only topic of interest until it is completed full stop
He's not confident and is really bad at speaking, talking in circles while treating the audience as if they are in kindergarten.
Is this a documentary or a science lecture? Where is the provided science and study evidence?
It's an RI lecture - they are intended for an audience of laypeople, who have an interest in science but little formal education and no specialist knowledge.
Slay kween