Opinionated: Should University Be Free? Scrapping Tuition Fees -TLDR News
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- Опубліковано 14 тра 2020
- Watch the Whole Season: tldrnews.co.uk/opinionated/
We asked our audience what they thought about making university free, so in this video, we're examing the pros and cons of free tuition.
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1 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-...
2 - labour.org.uk/wp-content/uplo...
3 - www.llakes.ac.uk/sites/defaul...
4 - www.moneysavingexpert.com/stu...
5 - www.universityworldnews.com/p...
6 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2...
7 - researchbriefings.files.parlia...
8 - www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9217
9 & 10 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-...
11 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-...
12 - www.llakes.ac.uk/sites/defaul...
13 - thefrontline.org.uk/wp-conten...
14 - Ibid
15 - Ibid, page 2
16 - assets.publishing.service.gov...
17 - www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/08/29/cas...
18 - www.llakes.ac.uk/sites/defaul...
19 - www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/upl...
20 - www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/upl...
21 - assets.publishing.service.gov...
22 - House of Commons, CBP 7857
23 - eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint...
24 - eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint...
25 - fullfact.org/education/6-youn...
26 - theconversation.com/higher-tu...
27 - www.heacademy.ac.uk/sites/def...
28 - www.researchcghe.org/perch/re...
29 - www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nation...
30 - www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-...
31 - www.nus.org.uk/PageFiles/1223...
32 - www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/poli...
33 - assets.publishing.service.gov...
34 - thefrontline.org.uk/wp-conten...
35 & 36 - www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...
37 - www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/upl...
38 - publications.parliament.uk/pa...
Would have been interesting to find out the educational background of people answering these questions.
In no way is £9250 a year worth what I get out of my course at university, recycled lectures/assignments/seminars are disgusting for that amount of money.
For some courses that lead to a high earnings potential, £9250 might be justifiable.
But for things like nail-technician, hairdressing, beautician or masseuse, it's difficult to justify.
We clearly do need to base the fee for each degree based on the average earnings potential it offers
dftf or maybe we just tax people who have gone to university by a certain percent more for 30 years. That way you pay back based on how much more you’ve contributed towards the economy, which also removes the psychological bias against accruing debt.
@@James_Haskell That's essentially what happens now. It shouldn't be described as debt because it isn't really.
Josh R I know, so why is it done that way instead of my way?
@@James_Haskell the system is inherently biased in favour of students who will not achieve anything with their degree. the people who go to uni work their arses off 70hrs a week and come away with a valuable degree end up paying it all back.... ie they pay for the privilege of boosting the economy for everyone else.
The numpty who goes to uni to do sport science works 10hrs a week goes out boozing 3 nights a week spends all their money and gets a hardship bailout of 2k every year from their uni.... they go on to middle management in mcdonalds and pay back 2% of what they borrowed.... everyone out there has paid for them to have a 3 year binge and society gets nothing in return.
making education free encourages the latter . the people who are smart enough to do a stem subject are smart enough to work out the cost has a value
Cost of living is killer. Maintenance loans depends on how much your parents earn. Which really hurts middle class students who don’t receive financial support. On top of that, work is almost always zero hour as a student making it extremely hard to budget
The middle class definitely getting hit the hardest by 'means' testing people who will not be taking the course. If it's a loan why limit it
That's a really good point, I never thought of that
when rent is more than sfe🤢🤢
I'm an international student and I don't even get one :/
Firelaf I feel for international students many I know have to work two jobs while studying. Instituting a student allowance for both domestic and international students or, even better a UBI for uk residents would help students much more than, free student tuition ever would
I'm in scotland and the universities are free here. They don't get over crowded because you still have to get good grades to get in but it's not like a scholarship. Also Scotland's tuition is free for most people with citizenships in the EU (currently) even though you still need to pay for living accommodations etc.
This does come with some problems however. Scottish universities are recruiting more UK non-Scottish students as they provide more income than Scottish and EU students, and this comes at the expense of fewer Scottish students getting into a given Scottish university, and so the higher grade requirements you mention.
The reduced income also results in much worse student support at many Scottish universities, with perhaps Glasgow, Edinburgh, and St. Andrew's excluded. I moved to a Scottish university for my PhD and the student support here is considerably worse than at my previous university in England, with many facilities being rolled out now which were standard at my undergrad university when I started 7 years ago, many of which are at a far lower standard, and many not yet even being available.
Same thing in Hungary.
What about Wales?
Yeah and some subjects have little to no students. On average on astronomy in Poland there's like 3 students on each year
"Aye" - Scotland
@a 2345193 YUP! Build the wall.
@@fredforsythe8310 What do you mean build? It's already there, just need a new paintjob and turning the scorpion turrets around.
@a 2345193 Just where do you think Silicon Glen is.... the UK IT capital... ohh yeah SCOTLAND. And guess just how much £ that brings in. And while we are at it.. where is the UK space centre going to be... ohh yeah SCOTLAND AGAIN.. See a picture growing here, kind of on the lines of investment in education pays is spades....
Scotland does not need fwit dead weights like sassenachs.
It is best described as a graduate tax not debit. As it is only paid by graduates once they earn more than the average salary up to the age of 50. Then it stops. Debit is a misleading description
a 2345193 Shockingly enough, we do raise taxes. Furthermore, Holyrood is entirely funded by the Block Grant, a set value we do not have control over and is funded entirely by Scottish taxes. Since tuition fees and education in general is covered by Holyrood, this means that tuition fees and the like are entirely paid for and funded by Scottish taxes. Most Scots pay on average less taxes on their incomes than those South of the border due to the different tax system, notably our economic output and productivity increased at a rate of 5x that of the rest of the UK, causing duties, exports (being the only country, even if splitting England into regions) to consistently have a £5-£10bn surplus every quarter among other things which allows us to have a stronger market producing a higher tax revenue. We’re restricted within the UK due to issues relating to; tax powers( lack of control over block grant; lack of ability to decide how to finance wider things such as keeping or removing trident; unrequited single market; European Union membership etc. Chances are, taxes won’t change, and everything currently funded by Holyrood which is entirely by Scottish revenue, will again not change given Holyrood actually runs a net surplus and legally can not produce debt, so things like the baby box, tuition fees, female sanitary products like tampons, prescriptions etc will all continue to be paid for by Holyrood.
The amount of interest on the loans is a massive problem no one is talking about
Unless you are repaying in full (I. E a very high earner) then this isn't really an issue. Martin Lewis (Money Saving Expert) does a great explainer on student loans.
I knoowww
@@meekyam37 Depends what you classify as a high earner? It actually hits the middle earning graduates the most.
@@benkent865 There has to be some interest on the loan to cover inflation. The highest earners will pay back inflation plus the "extra" interest loaded on top. Some of the middle earning graduates may start to pay enough to cover the interest that is there to protect the lenders from inflation. If you borrowed £30,000 from me 30 years ago then repaid me £30,000 today I'd have lost out big time right? Because according to the Bank Of England £30,000 in 1989 is £75,201.32 in 2019 with inflation averaging 3.1% over the same period.
Ultimately would the middle earning graduate have been a middle earning citizen without their uni degree? Probably not. Can they afford to pay back 9% of what they earn above approx 26K? Yes. Then when it comes to repaying in full it tends to be assumed people will work the full 30 years uninterrupted contributing every year and never taking time out to raise a child, become a carer for family, travel etc.
@@anthonymeek4248 It's a principled stance, I don't believe anyone should have to pay more than 50k total for their education. I don't care if they can afford it, it's not the duty of the successful graduates to subsidise the less successful graduates. If the money is your concern, lets cut out the mickey mouse degrees?
All I'm saying is that I aced my intermediary statistics class by ignoring the professor and learning it all from UA-cam.
Funnily enough, UA-cam can explain it better without a 9250 GBP price tag, as long as the topic is not too specialized / as long as you actually find something on UA-cam
All I'm saying is that I learned my SQL database modelling from a Twitch livestreamer.
Highway Pro currently go to a top 20 Russel group uni for economics, didn’t go to a single lecture for most modules nor did I use the slides. Ended up getting 96%, 80% and 78% in all the modules i was tested on this year. Honestly, it’s a joke that’s possible, granted I’m particularly good at maths since I studied further maths in A levels, however not studying one lecture and ending up with 96%? Genuinely a joke.
fully autonomous online university when?
While that might work some courses, I doubt you would feel safe when your doctor says the same thing about his or her medical degree.
Universities should at least provide an itemized bill showing exactly what the £9000 is going towards.
Well you can easily solve this, by going to study in Germany!
Uni fees work much more like taxes. you pay what you are told and you get what you get. the powers at be then give you a measly 1 questionnaire for feedback a year. You aren't buying a service, more you are paying taxes to be a "citizen" of the University. That's how the system has always been designed to run. Sadly, new students are fooled into believing that they are consumers and not citizens in the wider university structure.
@@nsoper19 Uk is an exception though, most unis in European countries are free or require a low fee.
@@ABC-ABC1234 yes I Understand that. my point was directed toward the OP more. Most european Unis still work more like nations with taxes than consumer products as such.
The more I think about it university is probably pretty well priced. Think about all the fancy buildings and societies and students lifestyle areas. If the university was purely tall buildings that was only about education it would be so much cheaper. But no one would want to go to those unis. University should be cheaper but we aren't asking why they are expensive but rather what should we do to make them free.
I like the Finnish system that we have, where there are no tuition fees, the government pays you 220€ per month, it pays up to 250€ per month for your rent and you can take a student loan if you want which has an absurdly low interest rate and the state will pay some 30% of your debt if you graduate on time. We also have student apartments that pretty much guarantee similarly priced apartments/dorms for students no matter the city, so you can survive easily even in Helsinki which is usually very expensive.
I studied for a year abroad in Finland as part of my degree here in the UK, and the way the Finns approach education, their mind-set and attitude towards it, completely blew my mind. The UK is a living breathing dinosaur in the education department.
They can do that because they tax the hell out of the people, but taxes in the UK are not as absurd as they are in finland.
The real problem is the interest rate on the loan. It is robbery imo. 6.7% is ridiculous and means the prospect of paying it off is almost impossible.
That's kind of the point. Very few people will have the opportunity to pay it all off, as said in the video. So the high interest takes more money from those who are more able to pay it all off, thus better funding the system.
It's somewhat punitive to very high earners compared to very very high earners who will accumulate less interest, but it's difficult to fix that.
@@hw985a Considering only the future earnings of students is kind of missing the key problem with the current system, students rely in "the bank of mum and dad", and those from wealthy families who can afford to avoid loans never pay interest into the system, despite being the most able to. It's a policy that acts against upwards social mobility, while protecting the already rich.
@@AHotLlama Not really, you're forgetting to consider the number of people that are actually doing that and the economic impact of doing that.
In order for your suggestion to have a non-negligible and negative effect, the group of people who pay their tuition fees without a loan would have to on average have an income which would result in them paying off their original loan plus inflation. It would also need to be several percent of home students in this situation to make any significant difference. I met many home students who were in the 1%, and even they didn't do this. The people I met who did do it tended to be from Muslim families who didn't want to take an interest accruing loan.
We have student loans here for living expenses as tuition is free. The interest on my loan right now is 0.16% I pay about $2 per month in interest
It's only that high if you are earning the maximum amount. As a recent graduate earning under 25k/year, interest is 2.4%
Still high, but your figure is an exaggeration
As a lecturer in design I strongly feel that perhaps a quarter of students are wasting their time and money at university, the system prevents us from kicking them out and focusing on those who work hard.
Wow, you really stepped up your game compared to season 1. It was definitely worth the wait
I think one of the main issues with uni education is the lack of investment. In Scotland our tuition is payed by the govt, our unis are given grants so that they can improve the facilities, many common graduate sector companies(mainly referring to STEM) are subsidised allowing them to grow and recruit more graduates, students (such as myself) from low income households are given a limited bursary and a loan, those combined gives me enough money to pay my living costs without stressing too much, but not enough to spend frivilously which is imo where it should be. The problem with "over-qualification" is more that we aren't investing money into our industries, "too little jobs" rather than "too many graduates". There are ways to create jobs and business that the UK govt are just completely ignoring and have been ignoring for 10 years now. Another issue is the availability of alternate types of further education such as apprenticeships which got almost no mention in school and which many companies refuse to use.
WeirdestWolf a very good point of flipping over graduates to under investment in jobs. I’m due to graduate after 5 years of studying, and there aren’t really enough roles in Scotland so I’m looking to move away because there are better job prospects elsewhere.
People with feminist history or musical theory won’t get many jobs,
The real waste are students going to Uni to do airy-fairy degrees like 'Sports Therapy with Cooking'.
Uni should be for English, History, Math and the Sciences. Everything else should come under vocational qualifications at college.
I find gender studies as a degree even more useless. It stands for the worst study topic ever lol
That's a very regressive view. The point of universities is to produce well rounded students that contribute to society as a whole. A prosperous society also needs engineers, journalists, actors, sports scientists, nutritionists, political scientists, psychologists and all manner of other things. But I agree there should be incentives to take particular courses to fill the skills gap.
The point of a higher education is to gain the knowledge that is required for a particular career or job. A simple blank higher education without a focus won't get you far and would be a more of a waist of time.
@@supercunthunt7756 LOL, can't IMAGINE why someone with your loser-nickname would object to the study of sexism! Actually, I can't believe anyone who willingly calls himself "SuperCunthunt" actually understands what "studying" is. Or has ever done it. Now wait, I just read that back: do I mean you've never studied anything, or never had sex? ;)
John 87 I’m guessing you’re one of these people then? Considering you seem to know so much about this course?
Universities do not deserve the monopoly on degrees they currently enjoy, I would not pay 9250 GBP for my studies, but having lived in Germany, I wasn't facing that dilemma. I would argue that most of the times, university degrees do not really translate into valuable skills when you're working later on, even if you consider softskills
Especially if you consider soft skills. Universities, which you'd think would be environments perfectly suited for that, don't teach those at all. They put students in group projects to reduce the evaluation work-load, but they don't actually teach students how to implement a hierarchy and work effectively as a team as then there wouldn't be a level playing field to evaluate students on.
It be interesting to do detailed studies in the individual fields. You for example stated that their are to many graduates but i often hear that their isn't enough engineers and stem students in general with British students favouring letters. In France it feels that their is a very large proportion of of foreigners working as engineers and studying stem subjects compared to the general population.
So the question is what graduates do we have to much of and what graduates do we not have enough of.
There may be not enough workers but because there are to many graduates these days along with worse quality uni most students are ignored once leaving uni when it comes to hiring as they don't have enough experience to work in the fields causing many to be forced to leave there field
It's definitely a major issue that should be addressed though the fact uni isn't treated as high a standard as it used to be
Well there definitely two major issues with there being too many graduates. The first is that many graduates have degrees in fields that aren't highly requested, people go for degrees in what they like with little regard for practical applications. You may like studying Music Theory or Social Justice but you jave to consider job prospects. The other main issue is that employers do not consider time spent in higher edication as experience. This also calls the issue that Universities do not emphasise the practical aspect enough, such as field work on internships. Learning all the theory without knowing how to apply it is not that useful
You're spot on. There's a UK shortage of STEM qualified graduates leading to a shortage in those professions but meanwhile there's a surplus of students studying Business, Finance, Law etc. because those are seen as the most lucrative professions, especially if you want to live and work in London. The result is a unbalanced economy with an overly large financial sector (which mostly launders and/or speculates with foreign wealth) while research, development and manufacturing, in both science and engineering, are neglected.
@@blucksy7229 "Uni isn't treated as high a standard as it used to be".
Because it isn't.
Someone with a first in maths from imperial college is treated the same as someone like that used to be.
Someone with a 2-1 in history of art from an old poly is treated the same as someone 30 years ago was who went to a poly and had no work experience either.
It's just now the history of art and gender studies pupil thinks they have a useful qualification. Because the education system and their mummy has told them they have one. But anyone hiring knows they do not have a useful qualification.
The increase is more in vocational subjects
Considering that I’ve just paid £9250 for some PowerPoint slides and a chance to maybe email a lecturer, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say maybe I’m not getting my money’s worth
You borrowed that money on a loan which most people won't pay back
Truth Seeker yeah it’s a loan but most end up paying an amount back each month that over time and interest ends up as more than the initial loan itself and becomes a financial pit. Hardly anyone manage to pay the loan off but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a financial burden
Hello everyone :) I am from Switzerland and spent one year abroad in South-Wales. So I kinda know the british education system but not perfectly. I want to tell you about how it is done where I come from and why I believe it is the wrong question to ask wether Unis should be free or not. In Switzerland over half of all students who have finished their "mandatory school time" will start an apprenticeship. This usually happens when you are around 15 or 16 years old. A big difference to the Uk is that you will properly work in a business/workshop for at least 3 days a week and spend 1 or 2 days in school which teaches you more things you have to know about your profession. After an apprenticeship you cannot go to Uni no, but you can go to a special kind of college for one year and get a diploma (you can also be hardcore and do it on the side of the regular apprenticeship). The diploma allows you to go to a "practical kind of Uni" called Fachhochschule. There you do not need a Masters degree to be valued by businesses - a bachelor is usually enough. Many times someone with the background of an apprenticeship and a Fachhochsschule degree is more attractive to businesses and companies as they already have quite a lot of experience compared to someone who went to college for 3-4 years and then went on to study at Uni for another 5 years never having had a "proper" job. Uni and Fachhochschule cost around the same amount. One semester is about 750-1000 Swiss Francs which is not too much compared to the average income. It is affordable. But not that many people even want to go to Uni as doing an apprenticeship and just keeping on working on the job is a fine option. You also have other possibilites to gain further diplomas etc.
This was just a little insight in our complicated but yet effective education system. I am sure I got some stuff wrong but maybe I inspired someone else to read some more about this topic.
Sounds very similar to germany, except that you do not have to pay Tuition fees for public Fachhochschule or University, a small administrative fee has to be paid though. And then there is the so called dual study (Duales Studium) schemes: You do both the apprenticeship and the degree at the same time. Which can be only done together with an employer that offers that kind of scheme. Many of the big employers offer that, getting in there is very competitive indeed and the result is usually quite a nice career.
That said, private universities to charge tuition fees, but those do not play a huge role in the market.
This is very similar to the German system I believe. Are there any significant differences between the Swiss and German approaches?
Sounds like a much better system... Universities should be for "academics" not for technical, business, or applied skills.
We have the apprentice system in the UK, but it is widely a path to exploitation by UK businesses, as the government doesn't sell it, morally, to the country. Apprentices in the UK are there to work for free/cheap and do basic menial tasks.
A waste.
the Dutch system is a combination of both to a degree.
Considering you said "British" when you most likely meant "English" I don't think you know perfectly...besides, we DO have apprenticeships for trades like plumbing, hairdressing and building, they were really pushed on us in school. I wouldn't want a system where EVERY degree was built towards a specific job - arts are important too. You can't really apprentice under a philosopher or film critic.
Having been through university, Engineering job, redundancy, civil service and into a software apprenticeship I firmly believe University degrees aren't worth what they use to be. The quality of education I received at university was sub par to what I got doing an apprenticeship.
In University you may be taught by experts in their field but many couldn't teach to save their life. Some lecturers even outsourced the teaching part of their job description preferring to pay someone else to do it and one lecturer, who really knew his stuff, struggled with the language barrier to be able to explain the concepts to the students.
Contrast that to the apprenticeship where I learnt on the job, picking up and focusing on key skills relevant to the job rather than learning vague concepts that are only relevant when Jupiter and mars align during the year of the rabbit (or to that extreme). It was also an added bonus I got paid to work while learning meaning I didn't increase my already large student debt.
Add to the fact Every man and his dog has a degree and many places require some sort of degree before even considering an applicant. My time in the civil service taught me that a lot of people spent a lot of money for little to no return. So many jobs have people overqualified (many where teachers and engineers who struggled to get something after graduating and settled or gave up after a while) hurting the rest of the workforce overall.
All this leaves me very negative about degrees. I firmly believe we should be focusing on apprenticeships not university tuition.
@The505Guys It was more the fact that a lot of the workforce, especially those with qualifications get stuck and end up demotivated and jaded very often taking orders from people who have been promoted due to years of service rather than any specific skill set.
The flip also is, I've seen some people who struggled in education fail to get job after job after job. One in particular finally did get a job helping out around the building sites. He was often the first there, last to leave and learnt different aspects of the trade eventually now running crews of his own. Many work places turned down someone because they didn't have a piece of paper when they could have had a worker who would not only put in the hours, but has a natural talent for people and time management often juggling many simultaneous things in flight.
Yes being overqualified can hurt the workforce. While many people think diversity is different genders, different skin colours, different accents they miss the reason that diversity is important and that is experience. Many graduates have the same pathway. They are forced to the mould to get that piece of paper, to think in a certain way. By requiring graduates, you miss out on that breadth of experiences that non University educated people can provide.
If you need more examples take farmers. Very often their background is leaving school at 16 and helping out usually on a family run business. A farmer is probably one of the most "under educated" yet has so many skills that would put most people to shame. To list a few Accountancy for the books, Veterinary for looking after animals and identifying and treating what they can themselves, building skills including plumbing and electrical, mechanical skills for fixing machinery, meteorology knowing how to read the weather and seasons, knowledge of law. Never mind work ethic, planning, negotiating skills. The majority of all those skills are self taught with no bit of paper as a reward.
I only got to have higher education because I had, not only free University, but I got paid to study, had an extra for making research, and had subsidized housing, food and transportation. If it wasn't for that, I would never have graduated and/or I would be in serious debt right now.
I think they needs to be a much bigger push on stem apprenticeships they are just as good as a degree
I agree - im currently studying engineering, as I spent a long time looking at apprenticeships, but came to the realisation that the only real way into the industry I had was to get a degree. Would much rather be earning and learning than sitting in a lecture theatre listening to a stuffy old man
There’s a name for an engineer that doesn’t have a degree. It’s called technician.
as an incoming med student i would love that
It should be free for the jobs we really need or the government should pay off the tuition fees for entering a certain jobs which are in demand. Nursing degrees should be 100% payed for once they enter the career.
A job that's in demand now might not be in 4 years when the student graduates.
It should be free for things like nursing (and police, fire-service and teacher roles) providing someone stays in this country and does that role for a set period after, say between 5-10 years.
I see no benefit in letting people do a course in nursing for free here, and after they graduate, they move abroad to work in their private-sector.
As long as we get the benefit of the investment in this country first, then sure
dftf I presume then nurses and doctors who are from England who get a university degree should then have to work for the NHS for 5-10 years rather than going into the private sector in England.I think they should have to work for the NHS permanently and scrap the private medical sector
dftf You already get a pretty hefty grant for pursuing a PGCE tho with the highest being a physics PGCE where you’re given up to £30K per year effectively being paid to study for it. For teaching, the problem seems to be the lack of people wanting to be teachers it seems...
as someome who has just taken out a uk loan for almost £14000 a year, I actually don't mind the dept system too much but the £4,200 maintenance won't even be enough to cover rent, I should be able to borrow more
You are able to borrow more for your maintenance loan. I was able to borrow up to just over £8000 a year. Not sure what your circumstances were that would meant you couldn't borrow that remaining £4000, but the option was definitely there for me.
@@syberracer2984 yes it is based on parent income but there is no obligation for your parents to support you in any way
@@ForbesToby yeah almost like dismissing family values and just expecting government to be the big daddy all the time is dumb...
Whoever's your editor for this did an excellent job
Been saying for years that the current tuition fees system is very progressive in the sense that you only pay if you earn more. The problem is the branding of it as a "debt" which in reality it's not, it's essentially a tax. If tuition fees were abolished, this would be funded by tax so in essence, nothing would've changed, just people who don't go to uni covering the cost more for people who do. I agree should be removed for specific courses relating to NHS as it used to be as in this case, everyone does benefit from that. More questionable that everyone else benefits from all other university courses.
The problem is for sure living costs which maintenance loans take into consideration family income, yet don't explicitly say parents are expected or required to contribute if they earn more than the threshold. This leaves the student with the issue of having to cover costs they couldn't reasonably afford.
System needs adjusting, but removing tuition fees would bring the least impact. It's purely psychological which whilst can improve some things, won't solve the tangible issues.
True but remember if someone cant pay off their tuition fees after 30 years then the tax payer will have to pay for it anyway. This could end up being a lot more expensive than if we paid for it now.
@@detectiverick9934 that's a fair point but if 30% are paying off in full and the other 70% are only partial, it's still better to make up what costs it can from those who directly benefit. There's also interest being paid to cover the cost of capital/administration so it'll still be beneficial.
@Oliver hardly penalised, they're paying 9% of what they earn over an above the threshold. So in all circumstances they'll benefit by earning more than the person who doesn't earn as much. If the degree truly was necessary, it'll be valuable to them. I do believe courses that provide a public service (NHS, education, etc) should be exempt as well as specific skill shortages. If you made it free, anyone would go, you'd have a market saturation and lower value of the degree. You'd be better promoting other avenues such as apprenticeships for jobs you don't require degrees for.
Welsh students get larger maintenance grants and reduced tuition fees but TLDR often seems to forget that Wales exists 😂
Well, considering Wales literally means foreigners in old English, I'm not surprised... The forgotten dog of England...
Wales doesn’t exist
.... I’M MOVING TO WALES! Or maybe Scotland🤔🤔 Question: do Welsh/Scottie students at English universities pay less or the same as English residents?
@@ayeshaw2486 scottie at English uni pay the same as you but the welsh only pay 3.5K at any uni in the UK not to sure about the rest if the world tho
Zussow I didn’t know that. To be fair, Scotland has some amazing universities of its own so I don’t think Scottish students are too bummed out.
i think we need to do more reviews on how effect and beneficial each uni course is. if they offer great benefit i think it should be reduce cost or even free but the one which offer no/little benefit should cost full amount
Absolutely. It's crazy something like a degree in being a nail-technician and quantum physics would both cost £9250 a year (okay, the latter would likely last many more years total).
But still... the fee should be proportionate to the average expected income having the degree will offer
@@YesBacon Maybe not Social Sciences but definitely the Arts
University is free in Scotland
Did you not watch the video? This was already said right at the very beginning.
Unless you're English but it's still a pittance compared to the rest of the UK.
Although, if you move to Scotland and have a permanent residence then yes, it becomes free again.
Paid for by the rest of the UK 😂
@@mylesjones851 by Scotland.
@@DirkAndDestroy By Scottish students. Fewer people go to university in Scotland and fewer people from disadvantaged backgrounds.
I believe all people should have equal opportunity to access education, healthcare and the law. Denying any of these on the grounds of cost, to me seems morally reprehensible.
Steve Gould We do get free access to education. It just stops at 18. Free university comes at the expense of other things however....especially now that half the school leaving population goes to Uni. Sadly, University has become a Ponzi scheme and a massive scam!
@@dolly22215 remember though the government has destroyed the old world of work for which we were once trained for in favour of 'the gig economy' in which we're supposed to participate through lifelong learning. It is unfair to the poorest members of society that contunual retraining is something we're supposed to pay for ourselves!
They should be free for the sake of fair opportunities
Although the majority will insist it can't be free, we should DEFINITELY make them interest free. And literally just make them pay back the fees alone.
Everyone has a degree these days, the most valued degrees are those with a placement year in industry gaining experience and being able to put skills into practice. Higher level apprenticeships are the way forward and offer the best value.
University degree is great when its free
As someone in Scotland and almost at the stage where I apply to university, I would be terrified if the scottish government began tuition fees
As someone in Scotland who is on the verge of moving out, entering my second year in a course, I am also terrified of that possibility lmaoo
Great video! As a soon to be graduating economist I liked the use of economic terminology.
Another consideration is culture. I grow up in an Indian household where education is highly valued, like most Asian economies, if people do not value higher educations for career prospects or for its own value they would consider government funding a waste on university tuition fees, while those that value it consider it an investment for the long-term benefit of a country.
I like the university system in Luxembourg. They give grants and loans to all students to study locally of abroad. The grants cover tuition and the loans are for rent and living cost while studying and need to be paid back a few years after entering the work force. The catch is that if you fail or change courses more than once, the money stops. I like this system because it helps those who want to study while also avoiding those who would take advantage of the money.
I feel like a population can never be to well educated and even if there aren't enough jobs in certain fields, people who have studied are a valuable part of society and bring value to any industry that they end up working in.
Everyone benefits from smart people going to university, not just more people.
"Smartness" matters very little when it comes to how well someone does at university. Being hard working matters a lot more. I study at one of the hardest programs in my country and every year we get a new crop of geniuses who have never been challenged in their lives who scatter completely once they have a single setback. Meanwhile the more avarage ones who are hard workers do a lot better because they learned how to sit down and study earlier I their education.
@@YesBacon They go on and become consultants for major firms in their work to create a more egalitarian work environment, something which in turn benefits everyone.
How does everyone always benefit?
If you have a team at a company, and the current manager signals they want to leave, and one of their workers does a degree in management, that one worker might then become the next manager and so earn more.
But how automatically do the workers benefit from their colleague's promotion? Their pay and conditions don't suddenly change...
Fredrik Dunge hard work does not mean good results, a builder can spend a year bringing bricks to a site and have a big pile of bricks.
A better approach would be to hire a truck and make a plan on how to put them together right.
There’s much more to academia than hard work.
Fredrik Dunge an egalitarian work place would have no mention of the word “gender”, job applications would be anonymised etc.
Special interest groups have no place in an egalitarian system.
Of course it should be free. We need more well educated people in various professions and as long as money determines who gets good education, we won't get the best people, only those who can afford it or are willing to indebt themselves without knowing if they'll be able to pay their debt back. In most European countries, there are free universities or they only request small fees for enrollment.
I like the new style of video, nice graphics. The production quality has really improved. But I not sure about the music.
I don't see the point in polling the audience BEFORE making a video on the pros and cons.
£9k a year might make sense for a medical or law degree from a top university, but for the vast majority they're not worth close to that.
It is in Scotland and we benefit from it every day :)
at the expense of others, except it benefits mostly people of a certain age.
Big Daddy Toyota Corolla at the expense of who?
Germany has a 500€ max copay a term, 1000€ a year (including more expensive public transportation) for the first degree and my university is lobbying to abolish the 6k a year they charge for future qualifications because they spend on half of that on collecting the money.
Conar Girvan the English taxpayers who have to foot the bill for your governments huge deficit
Harry-Matakios ah that old chest nut. You should have been encouraging Scottish independence then if that upsets you. I mean all we do is take take take 👍
Yes.
How about a reduction in fees commensurate with academic achievement?
Scotland enjoys more generous terms.
they do this in the Netherlands and its a debt trap. People who should never have gone to university in the first place stick at it for a very long time because of a golden carrot at the end (e.g. if you finish they will erase 1/2 the debt) and then they never finish anyway but spend 6 years failing exams and switching courses. It makes the sunk cost fallacy very pronounced and its very easy to get sucked in leading to nowhere. This happened to my exwife
This channel delivers unbelievable content, very underrated! Made me interested in UK stuff even though I do not live there lmao
I posted 5 comments, 3 are no longer here. Non of them were offensive beyond constructive criticism. What is this censorship.
Living costs are a big problem for students from lower socio-economic backgrounds. I had to work several part time jobs on top of full time tuition in order to afford basic living costs such as rent, utilities & food.
Further, we're competing as well as co-operating with each other at university, and those who can afford unpaid internships are at a marked unfair (unearned) advantage.
2:04 additional*
In Denmark, we have no fee. On contrary, we pay our students to study.
Why
@The505Guys but the UK is richer than Denmark
@The505Guys it used to be free though
As a person on full benefits due to health problems. I went back to school and graduated with honours from a one year 3D and modelling course. Because I am not that young I was not thinking of getting a job in the game industry. I had some past experience teaching and enrolled on a teaching degree program and completed the first course with great success. I was lacking some knowledge and wanted to improve my chances to get a teaching job, so I planned to enrol on a photoshop and illustration program before finishing my teaching degree. Then the government cut the free tuition and I never finished anything. Ten years later I am still on some benefits and working as a freelancer making very little money. - No teacher qualifications - and now I get my education from Udemy and UA-cam.
I can provide some international context: In my home country Germany it is basically free to go to university. It is generally a nice thing to have, but one problem we really struggle with is people studying forever. Either never getting on with anything and always only partying/chilling. Or they switch courses multiple times. That is a side effect of it being free, people don't mind "wasting" it. So ideally tuition should be high enough for students to appreciate the cost that goes into university and also contributing part of that back with tuition, but low enough to not be an actual entry-barrier for anyone.
this seems like a way less complicated setup than ours... we have a point system for cost reduction for tuition fees, applications for reduction when poor, systems in place to what the cost can be if the points are depleted(fixed per point, but variable per institute),applications to get government housing for students with low income (or parents with low income),...
yet our 'who pays for this' is 'student directly and/or every taxpayer' no student loans exist(as far as I know, or at least officially). my study costs are done. but a tiny fraction of every taxpayer now will go to every person that receives those reductions at the moment, so in a sens I'm paying no for a bit for those that are currently in college/university
Why are these sorts of videos not widely viewed? They are the best kind of videos that TLDR News makes
In Northern Ireland, the repayment of student loans is 9% of your entire wage, not your excess over the threshold (which sits at £18,935).
I don't see any reason not to make University tuition free (for citizens), but I do see reason to limit that subsidy to fields of study that actually promise a career which will re-pay the investment in tax-receipts over the working life of the people who will use it. If the field doesn't lead to a remunerative career, there's not much benefit in funding people teaching it. You can study poetry on your own dime.
Why should the tax payers be funding other peoples degrees?
Yes
I personnally want to study in a British university because of the higher quality of courses, and the more numerous job opportunities. At first I thought of studying in Oxford or Cambridge, but witht the most recent raising of university tuition fees, and coming from a developping country, I highly doubt I will be able to move to the UK to study, which is heart-wrenching. I love the United Kingdom, and I am a good student by my country's standards, but the fact that economics may well impede me from pursuing my desired scientific career is, to be blunt, overwhelming.
As someone who has worked as University staff, I can tell you a little bit about finances (nothing too complex because I didn't work in finance), at least in my school. In engineering course costs are significant, so home/EU students just about break even, I'd expect in humanities they might turn a profit. Foreign students are the main source of profit, and research is almost always a loss, as the grant money almost never covers the full cost. Pretty much any money they made after the layers above took their cut (faculty and university) went on covering research overruns. Financially it would make sense for the school to do no research at all, but of course that's not how it works, universities are expected to do research and are assessed for the quality of their output. It also attracts more students, particularly overseas and postgraduate.
It took me 9 months to get a graduate technician role(i did get a non grad position in the meantime). Every position i applied to had at least 200-300 other graduates applying. My degree, biochemistry is considered to have the most job opportunities at the end of any science degree. We have too many graduates.
Thing is to me it feels like most of the fees I am paying go into funding research that I won't benefit from. Teaching was a lot better at my high school and sixth form than it has been at university, and I went to UCL.
As a student. I do feel that the main area students are taken advantage of is in rent. If you want to be in halls, then the lowest price for a small room you can find in my area was about £480 a month. Though more often people are paying upwards of £560 a month. That doesnt leave a lot left for food & course expenses.
Renting from a landlord is a little cheeper, and its what I've been doing. But houses tend towards being poorer maintained and can be inaccessible for students with disabilities.
I do feel that there needs to be more workplace interaction with universities. People with work experience in their chosen field are far more valuable that those with just a piece of paper. I feel universities can get caught up In the acedemia of it all and forget that they market themselves as a way to improve job prospects etc.
Definitely re-evaluate considering how high and varied living costs are my uni rent was £170 a person study the same course at a different uni paid £130 as a middle class student I had to get a job to pay it back. The current system favours those from low income households fair enough but makes its very difficult for people like me
9% seems really high, here in NL it is 4% and currently with 0% interest and you pay nothing if you earn under €21k/y, gradually increasing after that. You pay for 30 years and you can temporarily stop paying for up to 5 years in total, after those 35 years the remaining debt is cancelled.
That's-pretty much what happens in the UK too.
Over qualification wouldn't be such an issue if employers didn't demand a 2.1 minimum for a job typing numbers into a spreadsheet and nothing else.
Getting a higher education of some kind has long been considered a requirement to get a job of most any kind beyond base level jobs that you can still get before even graduating high school. We're reaching a point where, much like how our current public schools were made free, higher education will no longer be optional and that education should be provided by society at large.
I think it should depend on your subject of choice. Like doctors, nurses and teachers should be free. Xxx
yes
When speculating what should be changed or if things should be changed in the English higher education system, it makes sense to compare it's current state to that of a country on the opposite side of the spectrum. I was raised and did my basic education in Poland but did Uni in England. Poland has a free higher educations system with an abundance Universities providing a high level of education. Even in the expensive cities Universities are always located in areas where living costs are not that high so the costs of undertaking higher education are still taken into account but they are not a massive barrier. As a result a large number of the population undertakes higher education and the country has a high , even over-saturated number of higher-ed workforce.
PROS:
It's very easy for employers to find qualified workforce for open vacancies. As a result of this and the fact that costs of land and life are quite low in compare to other EU countries many international companies have opened sites in PL, explaining that the low costs and abundance of educated people was what convinced them to do so. There are so many examples of this case. This has attracted a lot of foreign investment in the past 2 decades, opened a lot of new job positions, shifted the country into a position of a more international and collaborative state and in general had a positive impact on the standard of living in the long run.
CONS:
One of the worst cons I'm aware of is the fact that many graduates end up getting jobs that where they are heavily overqualified for due to this over-saturation. I've heard of graduates with a masters degree in accounting or finance working in kebab shops, just because competition for open vacancies was so tough. This in consequence raises the competitiveness and pushes students further to acquire outstanding qualifications. I've heard that it became quite a standard for students to undertake a 7 year long university course of a double masters degree, where they study one main subject but also a second one as fallback in case they won't be able to find a job in the first area. This is yet another reason why many of us still migrate.
In my opinion, the biggest issue with tuition fees and loans isnt the loans but the insane interest rate of 9% on those loans, turning the repayment into what is in effect a tax on graduates. If you made those loans interest free, that would improve the repayment rate, meaning that the exchequer wont have to write off massive amounts of debt as well as allow for more people to keep their money for bills etc from when they start earning an income after their degree
I was definitely put off from going to university by the dept & how a lot of people I know didn't benefit overall.
It's a difficult one because some degrees cost more than others, like medicine or engineering. Plus, some degrees are focussed more to towards research than actually finding employment…do you cut research too? There isn't an easy answer. How would universities get funded? What about foreign students who already pay far more than UK students?
Many universities have had a system where by they depend of the funds of international students. I would pay £15k tuition fees upfront each year and it was painful. They should lower the fees for all of us because I didn’t feel like I got what I paid for.
The true cost of free university degrees is in reducing students' desire to select a cheaper costing option. In a way, the current system of grants etc, while well-meaning (encouraging people to attend), actually increases the long-term costs of university.
Giving a certain amount of loan money inversely dependent on the student's income is the answer. Then the universities will compete, instead of pumping up the prices, as they know the government will pay anything.
Well I have no intention to fully pay back my loan and probably won’t anyway once I finish in another 3 years
I just want to point out that free uni education doesn't necessarily mean you can be in uni forever. Eg. I earned my medical degree in Hungary. Here you study medicine for 6 years, and you have to have really good grades to get in. But if you fail a course you almost always have to redo an entire year. So the goverment funds 7 years (14 semesters) for med tuition. I needed 15 semester so I paid for the last one. I find this fair because the majority of the students wouldn't be able to pay for an entire tuition and if you are good enough you can do it "free". If you keep failing your bill will ad up.
It is already for Scottish students
As someone who has just completed my degree in Maths and will be heading to work for a bank in September, when adding it up it seems like i will be repaying my loan in full if i just stuck to the minimum payments as docked from my salary.
I haven’t come from a wealthy background but university has allowed me to get into a huge company and massively enhanced my job prospects, and although i might be slightly aggrieved that i will be paying for others that are going to university for the free ride, i would not have had the earnings potential if i didn’t acquire a degree in some form.
In my opinion there should be some sort of law that prohibits the administration expenses incurred per university, and there should be more of a push at sixth form / college level to get students into technical roles / higher apprenticeships. Many people are currently at university because it’s just what everyone else is doing and it seems like the only path. Hopefully then the number of graduates reduces for those that don’t need to be at university for bettering their careers. Hopefully this could then reduce the tuition fees for students who would benefit from university.
Also as a last point, I really liked Jeremy Hunt’s idea to scrap student loan repayments / debt for those that are looking to start a business when he ran for Conservative party leader, but that’s a different point entirely.
Yes. Next question?
As much as the £9250 is extortionate I think the first step would be showing students how there money is distributed between each sector in university so what percentage of the £9250 goes towards wages, renovation/ new buildings , technology etc . Because it would enlighten students what they are paying for. It would also start the conversation that why should the money of a law student pay for music equipment for example. As far as I’m aware the money is divided equally between all sectors but in my opinion 20% should be given to shared experiences like halls of residence, libraries , HR just to name a few ( if university owed) . The rest should go to the department head of subject which the student is studying. It would therefore make sure those subjects very keen to get as many students as possible and to provide the best education possible. Therefore allowing more money to spend on improving the course. It would also mean that students felt like they’re money was mainly going to improve their leaning instead of going else where.
Liked the vid. It would have been interesting to see a stat for student's opinion on value for money for each year over the last decade.
In Australia If you earn under $51597 you pay no uni fees. $ 57729 you pay 2.O%. $64306 you pay 4.0%. $80197 you pay 6%. $91245 you pay 6.5%. $100613 you pay 7% and $107214 and above you pay 8%. It's not a bad system with HECS government loan fees.
"Push people towards more technical STEM subjects" There are already 2 stem degree holders for every 1 stem degree job...
No, there aren’t. Not in the UK.
I’m a straight-A student and allowed myself a sabbatical after graduating high school. Oh, had I not done that! I won’t be able to attend university next year, since tuition skyrocketed..now my life has fallen to pieces.
Something like this video should be mandated in schools.
The video title is misleading because a university education isn't free. Some countries just choose to fund it from general taxation, as the UK does with the NHS, but it's still expensive, so students need to earn their place.
I don't believe a university education should be free but I also think the Tuition Fees in the UK are prohibitively high and prevent students from pursuing a degree and educating themselves, especially at the best universities, which also tend to demand the highest fees.
(The fees to study at LSE, for example, are ridiculously high.)
£10,000 a year is too much, but £0 is not enough, so somewhere in between these extremes would be reasonable, with fees varying from between £3000-£6000 depending on the course of study.
As an international student in UK I deeply agree with the maintenace (daily living costs) being the worst part. The cost of university doesnt really matter as the ammount you end up paying is very bearable and people only make it seem worse because it is viewed as a debt... however many times I came to think that the level of education I actually got wasnt worth the cost... but my point is, in the case of international students more often than not parents cannot help, either because they get disconnected from the kids or simply because of the money they would lose in transactions, making it impossible to earn a living and support your kids unless you are upper class. maintenance grants help but in the end it just adds up to your debt xD
No - Scotland has free tuition for Scottish and EU students but because it costs the Govt so much, caps have been placed on the spaces available to Scottish students. About 15k Scottish students miss out on uni places each year because the are reserved for free paying students instead.
Additionally, the maximum loans/grants in Scotland are low because of free tuition taking priority, meaning despite free tuition fees, low income students still cannot afford university because of living costs.
It is also not a traditional 'debt' in Scotland and loans still have to be paid back, so if tuition fees were added to this, a miniscule amount extra would come out of pay checks in order to pay it off.
Scotland should reintroduce tuition fees and channel the funding into providing extra loans and grants so people can afford university living costs.
No tuition in Scotland. No Top 20 universities in Scotland. Do the same in England and watch the Oxford and Cambridge profs depart to America. Let the USA have all the top schools!
The 2nd top rated uni is in Scotland.. St. Andrews also even though you have a few high hitters a lot of studies actually show on average a Scottish university is better because although we have less great ones we have more good ones and less shit ones
Hopefully going to university this year to study computer science (providing I don't get my grades screwed over) and I can see both sides to the argument with tuition fees. Personally I think that they should be reduced to stop debt fear and make the maintenence loans increase *for everyone*. This compromise will not impact other sectors too much and achieve a more desirable lifestyle for students.
Yes University should be free
Why?
And people that chose not to go to university, and go to work should not have to pay taxes on their wages for 15 year's.
Universities here in Russia offer free education to those who get certain marks on our standardized test which students take in their final year of school (like sat or a levels). Those who can’t meet the criteria for a free place have the opportunity to pay for their education. I do believe that’s one thing my country can be proud of.
It’s really scary to think I’ll be in ~£80,000 debt after university. Ouch.... I know I may never pay it off, but that number scares me and would defer people from going to higher education.
Okey, so this is a true story told by one of my professors:
In Poland we have a mixed system - it's free for daily studies for citizens of Poland, but tuition for weekend studies and for non-citizens. The payment is either per semester or per year. So what happened is some student payed for next year or next semester in advance and failed current semester badly enough to have him removed from uni. But because they payed in advanced it turned out they cannot remove them - meaning that by paying in advance they ensured being irremovable.
Not saying this would be a general trend but among super-wealthy we know that such things are possible - to make their kids "graduate" from university
You know, after you explained it the tuition fee model is not that bad, but *only* because of how loan repayment works. That system itself could maybe use some reframing. How it feels is different from how it works. You mentioned that with people avoiding hte concept of "debt".
Of coruse it is a serious issue, that living during study is not also covered by it. Given that people from wealthier backgrounds have more likely money to not need to worry about where to live during University stay, also covering those costs might be better then only looking at tuition.
I'm not a STEM graduate but there really are some degrees which I don't think are worth it. Examples:
-Advertising,
-Illustration,
-Animation,
-Media Studies,
-Film Studies,
-Television Studies,
Other countries have free Universities: Germany being an example.
Only 64.6% of people agreed that University significantly improved the job prospects of those who attend? I'd expect that figure to be much higher, very surprising.
About half of graduates don't work in their field of study and around a third work in a job that doesn't need a degree so it's not too surprising.
@@Ebenezer563 Actually having thought it about it... In my opinion it depends entirely on what the graduate studied and what tier University they went to. Uni will probably improve the job prospects of >95% of graduates who studied STEM subjects at a Russell Group Uni, whereas studying Photography at Bolton Uni will probably not be very beneficial at all. The survey is somewhat flawed in my opinion to generalise all Uni students.
I don't think it should be free but tuition fees definitely should be cheaper than they are.
Also apart from tuition fees the real killer was maintenance loans covering rent, which it barely did. Student life was a lot different balancing a part time job and uni work in comparison to my flat mate who had financial support from family & we are both considered "working/middle class".
Before the 1980s the government paid your fees and gave you a means tested grant. Obviously some of that got drunk at the Union Bar, but they all got decent jobs/careers.
I am a supporter of paid university education providing that there are loans available for the tuition fee and would rather more money went towards maintenance grants/loans to help disadvantages people be able to afford the other costs involved in studying.
The loan does mean that they people who go into the highest paid jobs end up paying back more - the only concern being the group in the middle who end up paying off their whole loan but over the whole period and as such also accumulate and pay the most interest on that loan whereas the highest paid people will pay it off earlier avoiding much of that interest.
Another concern with free university is that it has the opposite effect than people not going because of concern of debt and encourages people who would be better off in an apprenticeship, getting straight into work or doing another kind of training to go to university either because it's the done thing, or they don't want to miss out on the university experience. With no cost to it, it makes it the obvious first choice which would then put pressure on the university system in terms of places and potentially lead to wasted resources going to people who don't complete their degree or do poorly.
Yes but it should be harder to get in, so those who work hard and deserve to go to uni can, giving more value to degrees. Plus it would force those who go to uni for the "uni life", who wont be productive students, to have to go into workforce and stop wasting resources and time. This would make our country more of a meritocracy
Making it harder to get in is a terrible idea. Not all people test well. In my opinion one entr exam should really be the defining thing go you get to study in a field or not. It should be harder to stay in so that you can't just party for 3 years and get your degree.
I think a big issue is that prospective students can't really see where that money is going and the value that that course will add to their future, that is why all university course are now priced at £9,250. There should be a full break down of the courses by cost and value added to you. So the cost per lecture/seminar, lecture ratings, free facilities and equipment, etc. I think this would result in lower value courses costing less.