To save time instead of removing the 5/8” nut which is usually corroded, take a long screwdriver and pry the gap open to clear the plastic plug and pull straight up. Lol
@@leonardlewis5586that's true but if you work for the big companies the ones that pay really well I just put in that part and most likely somebody else is going to go install it😂 no reason to rewire anything going home to ride the motorcycle
The last part of your video really hit home about being sent out to learn on your own. I did residential installs for about 5-6 years with 0 service experience. I decided to get in to commercial industrial as a service tech to broaden my knowledge. My first employer would send me anywhere and just expect me to know how everything worked with the responses if I didn’t know “it’s just a rooftop”. It really stressed me out and discouraged me. I’ve tried really hard to try and learn and absorb as much as I can by watching others, especially your videos. I still feel very inexperienced and struggle even with my new employer. Wish I could go in to jobs with the confidence you have, even when you don’t know. Just want to say thanks for spreading your knowledge to struggling techs like myself, it really means a lot. So thank you Chris
Go back to residential. That's where the money is. Anyway, work for one of the really big companies. You might not even install parts anymore. This guy is making UA-cam videos in the hope that he'll get big enough so he doesn't have to do this anymore😂😂 watching this video you don't even know if any of those condenser fan motors were actually bad😂😂 he just threw Parts at it like most of us do😂 he just has enough knowledge that when the condenser fan motors didn't fix the problem he was able to move on to the board
@@ufcpubg1964 ufcpubg1964 I would say all of the above.. you used to get paid more in commercial today. Residential pays more..... I got a $5,000 half up front half in 6 months sign on bonus...... get 5% of total sales, and I get commission on parts and new installs... and if you want to open your own business in the future, it's much easier to get residential jobs than trying to get these commercial contracts.. and Commercial sucks 40 ft extension ladders walking a mile just to get to the unit on top of a mall .....the stress of having to fix a unit or they're going to have to evacuate an old folks home... units that have been rigged for the last 20 years... look at the video, you have a Master Tech, and he fired the parts Canon and at it. Then, after he installed all that stuff, he had to rig it because it actually needed a board... which he most likely won't even tell anybody about, so that's another rigged unit out there that you're going to come across...
One thing my mentor taught me early on: "The problem lie where the power dies and there's 3 things that make any piece of machinery work. You need air, fuel, and electrical to make everything work." That has greatly helped me ever since, even when I don't know what I'm doing
What you have that many don't have is in depth understanding of how the equipment functions. This is very important and not normally taught in basic school. This is why you can figure out a way to get the customer up and running and save the situation. This is true for any service and any industry, As you know you might bypass about anything but may not be safe and could cause other issues. I have seen some rigging that is very very dangerous. Keep up your great content and explaining your safe shortcuts. Good job!
Auxiliary relays are also a good choice. Your second stage can activate your 3rd stage. A lot of manufacturers use it as proof of contactor closure. I like the use of the timer as a safety feature in case of an issue. Another great video Chris
the part that blew up is a MOV aka metal oxide varistor. looks like there's one per relay so it's likely used to suppress transients across the relay contacts to prolong their life. If so, you can just cut it out, with the only negative side effect a possibly shorter life of the relay contacts. If that relay was turning on the condenser fans, if the MOV shorted, it would be sending power to the fan all the time, so a symptom would be the fan running when it's not supposed to. Or whatever is the load connected to the relay would be getting power, but maybe not full mains voltage, so it might also damage it.
The component on the board looks like one of those surge suppression MOVs which isn’t critical to the operation. It may have been damaged by a transient spike or lighting strike. Unfortunately not knowing for sure and that it may have damaged something else means it would not be a good idea to leave it in service.
Looked like it was only the one component that is just for overvoltage protection so could have just cut it off and the board would probably have worked until he got a new board
@@JohnDoe-bd5sz MOV incinerated and potentially the adjacent relay gone. MOV probably took out a fuse too. It's not an uncommon fault and why anything with them should be fused.
repairing them without being factory certified repair would be an liability issue, both for him and you. I don't mess with hvac/r, most appliances and other boards that deal with anything that can cause harm if it faults. have to cover thy hind quarters. even in case of a freak accident, they'll point at the last person to touch it.
You could have used both delays by adding an ice cube relay. From the control voltage of #2 run a jumper through a make-delay to the coil of the ice cube relay, also connect control voltage from #2 to the input contact of the new relay. Connect everything you built to control #3, the delay-break and the hp and lp safeties to the NO contact. Theory of operation. #2 comes on also energizing the make delay. After it times out the relay closes sending control voltage to the break delay and the safeties before closing the 3rd stage contactor. Still no lockout but current inrush is minimized. Edit spelling
Option: Get a 24v time delay. Have your other compressors contacter paralleled to time delay coil, to energize together. Bypass the faulty board and use that compressors control circuit and run it through the time delay contacts. Now you’ll have both compressors safeties intact and they won’t bang on at the same time.
Did quite a few field repairs to circuit boards in the past. Swapping burned out relays and reflowing failed solder joints etc. I was somewhat "thrown to the wolves" but only because my boss knew I had previous electronics and mechanical systems experience, and I demonstrated I could troubleshoot and research things independently if needed.
Quite a few people in the comments section have confirmed my initial diagnosis of the board: the component that "let the magic smoke out" is a MOV, metal-oxide varistor, commonly used to filter out transient spikes and supply voltage surges. You probably could have performed a board-level repair and slapped a 30-day warranty on it by replacing the MOV, and probably the relay above it. Of course, before doing so, one should probably inspect the board and traces to make sure there is no damage... I don't know how deep your knowledge is (EDIT: of, not is - what the heck was I thinking?) electronics is, and to be fair, a repair like that might be something you don't want to "put your name on" even if you were highly-skilled at board-level repairs. Which is understandable. As usual, your outro is full of good advice. Being "thrown to the wolves" is far more common than you might realize. It's not specific to tradework, it's also prevalent across most of the food service industry. Every time they schedule me with someone new - often with one or two days' training, and nothing more - I'm there soothing their frazzled nerves, and telling them something along the lines of "this job throws a lot of info your way, without giving you much chance for hands-on practice, if any. Try to keep calm, focus on accuracy, and the speed will come from time and experience - do not force yourself to meet my pace. Do not be afraid to ask questions if there's something you're the least bit unsure of, because we are a team, and I am here to help. Whatever happens, we'll work through it together." They usually give me someone barely-trained on hot and iced coffees, and expect me to teach them all the frozen drinks, espresso beverages, sandwiches, cleaning procedures, food handling, the POS (whether it's a point-of-sale register or a piece-of-💩 register, both definitions of POS apply here), closing procedures, and all that during the afternoon rush. And, if somehow I don't have time, or the person has social anxiety disorder and starts to melt down on me and I have them take a brief sanity break, it's somehow MY fault the person on their SECOND DAY lacks the full knowledge I've accumulated over six years (non-contiguous time) with the Franchise. Sometimes I wish it were as simple as copying a few folders out of my brain onto a USB drive and updating their firmware. 🤣
theirs a weird stop gap these days where there are few old hand techs to teach the new guys either due to bad companies or just ageing out of the field and the companies throwing guys to the wolves to sell mostly; its a shift in the industry where investment companies have bought the mom and pop joints and tried to make them into cash machines its happening all across the board , i myself left for the government side of work and took 4 of my co workers with me
I got called out to help a new guy who accidentally shorted control wiring during PM, and the fuse didn't protect the board. No generic available, 15°F nights. Had to essentially build the broken circuit after tracing it on the board. 3 relays and a time delay relay did the trick, but what a pain.
I'm not in to the AC stuff but with basic electric knowledge...if the motor is havin power is easy to spin by hand and is hot, the is 99+% capacitor. If its cold, is the motor. Easy take. Thank you for sharing , it is a pain to be in hot sun..hard work just to sit there...Keep good work! LE; that black melted piece is a relay, like a mini comtactor, after a while the electric comtacts will go and will flame and generate heat and that is. You can change only that piece and you will have a working board
Had a similar issue with a couple new Trane Commercial AC condensers awhile back, except it was a factory board issue and not working well with the York controllers inside.. We ended up bypassing it after a call back, even with delays I wired in it still locked out the units. Sometimes you gotta do these things, just make sure everythings peachy beforehand as a proper tech would.
@@stazeIIthere’s a business opportunity … go to all the hvac contractors and offer to buy all of the “dead boards” for $5 or Shipping/Handling … fix them up, and sell them back as refurbished.
I spent about the same time on the job as I did in the classroom with courses offered by all manufacturers . If you want to be a good service tech take what ever courses you can most are free.
What you described about getting "thrown to the wolves" describes my entire hvac career!! I'm not aware of any company here in Connecticut that doesn't do that. I did things with no apprenticeship or license that I shouldn't have had to do. Heck, I even did things only licensed electricians should do even if ai had an hvac license I shouldn't jave been doing! Talk about test your mettle! Once again Chris, you are amazing. I hope your guys appreciate you as a boss! Please know how valued you are. Very grateful for what you do and how you do it! ✌🏻😁😎👍🏻
Young guys like me (24) 6 years total into the trade, 2 years into maintenance/service NEED videos like this to LEARN how to SOLVE problems. It’s one thing to change parts, let’s be doctors. Thanks man!
I’m being 100 percent here. After doing a 5 year apprenticeship you should be more than capable of doing exactly this. I’ve done this on Trane intellipaks during covid due to back orders. Used 90340 relays and putting a thermostat in the return to get by. Made my own board.
Buenas tardes estimado Chris, tienes un estupendo cerebro para resolver cualquier tipo de problemas como lo demuestras aquí. Un gran trabajo para seguir adelante. Saludos desde Coacalco Edo de México.
Those are MOVs, surge suppression. They are connected in parallel to the circuit to clamp a voltage surge to a certain level. When they fail short the let the smoke out like that. You can actually use some side cutters and snip the bad one off and reinstall the board while waiting for a replacement.
Because of these things letting the magic smoke out when they fail, they should be fused (on the board with like 2A or so) That is really bad board design, this can start a fire
@@TofuInc The fuse should be properly rated of course. These peaks in current are in the micro- or even Nanosecond range. No fuse blows that fast. That is from the QnA of Littlefuse, a manufacturer of MOVs: Q. How does an MOV fail? A. When subjected to stresses above its ratings, an MOV can fail as a short circuit. If applied conditions significantly exceed the energy rating of the device, and current is not limited, the MOV may be completely destroyed. For this reason, the use of current-limiting fuses is suggested. Q. How do you select a fuse to prevent failure of an MOV? A. Fuses should be chosen to limit current below the level where damage to the MOV package could occur. Specific guidance is provided in the Littelfuse MOV data book. Generally, the fuse should be placed in series with either the varistor or the source ahed of the varistor. If you can't put a current limiting fuse in to protect the MOV, a thermal fuse could be installed that disconnects the MOV once it gets to hot i.e. has failed short or begins to fail Not having any protection other than the ~60A Fuse at the disconnect switch is just bad design
Im shocked Chris that restaurants have a separate maintenance company do the regular pm's. Where i am on East coast we are all so over run with work they either have same company do work or they just till it breaks which happens a lot.
Chris you should invest a small pump that would tie into your hose from milwaukee for example that runs off battery to help with water pressure. just an idea my friend.
Oh yes Lennox!! Look at all the access to components! Also many are the same, that’s by design! I like the statement everything is on plugs! By design! M1-6 is an older IMC (integrated modular control). The last generation of the M1 was a M1-8 easy to tell the board is blue. So Lennox produced M2 prodigy M3 energence M4 core in production now. great RTU from a service standpoint! By design!
Just a suggestion: A list of tools and parts foreach type of repair for each manufacturer. I use to do this for IT repair. A list on each unit for the last service date and parts.
Delay on make would be a better option. So no matter happens you have a set delay after you get a call, even if that call is a pressure switch "re making"
that burned disc is a MOV spike suppressor , they can and do fail over time naturally , at a pinch u can cut it out without a problem , often they just burn up over time as they get old
Well that MOV is nuked, I was seeing that before, I don't think you did anything wrong, it's from voltage spikes they degrade until they fail! You nicely did that bypass with safety and everything!!! 👍👍 I guess you could also have connected the high pressure/low pressure switch in series with the second stage pressure switches but then you would have basically locked out both compressors in case of a problem!
Smart to have them come on together using the control signal to the other contactor. Why not just wire in a time delay on energization if you dont want the inrush? When you get your board recover the relays. Edit, someone said the same thing
It hurts to see a board like that go to the trash. It looked like a bad capacitor, a 15 min solder job and you would be up and going. I understand that having every small part for every board is crazy. I just hope you take it fix it later and keep it as a part in your truck! Great Videos!
I had to push that with my company to after plenty of long days struggling and researching, just hoping I crossed all Ts and dotted the i. I’d be working on a rack that’s been beat down and put back into service any way possible. Going down rabbit holes because majority of the equipment is messed up, not right or barely hanging on. You Definitely want to work for a company that will train you and pay for extra training on specific equipment. Great video!
Had to work on unit in apartment.. The relay was was burned out on the board. Replacement was $500 I use copy relays fuses and cpl diodes got it running. Last I heard they refused to buy a replacement 🤷
an MOV blown that hard is most always due to nearby lightning strikes and very high voltage current inductions. it's possible that was energized and the utility grid had a severe over voltage from crossed HV levels, but I'd expect there to have been more parts damaged on it and in the building.
True so very much. In my opinion, go into a proper Apprenticeship (UA or SMW) for HVAC service. Pay is great and you get the time to acclimate into the Trade. Only way IMHO.
Sometimes, when you temporarily rig something, the customer will use that opportunity to call around and get a cheaper quote to save 5 bucks. Then, they will try to cancel on you, and now you have a part on order for nothing. I still do it for my good customers that I know won't screw me like that, but the ones that I know are like that will have to wait for the part. Of course, it's different if you could do some work while you were there and charged them for the time you spent getting it going. Still, if all you did was rig one thing to get it going, then most of them would throw a shit fit if you charged them for it and then quoted to return and fix it correctly, even though you did them a huge favor and should be compensated to get it going and to return. Anyway, good job getting it going for them.
@@HVACRVIDEOS I stopped “complaining” when I did a maintenance at a shoe store last week not far from that location, that had 6 large Daikin package units. Man, talk about pieces of crap. 4 out of 6 of the units were flat on charge on 1st stage, one was completely down due to a low voltage short that another company couldn’t figure out (so many unplugged wires and popped fuses everywhere). And these units are not even that old. Lennox are an absolute joy to work on compared to those.
Great video, Chris. Using the 4ft ladder was a good idea, both for your own health and that of the equipment and client relations. It only takes one mistake or something being not as expected or as it should be and you're injured, potentially of work and needing surgery for a busted knee or equipment ends up damaged, all stemming from not using the right tool for the job which in this case was a short ladder. Okay, so the ladder is something else to carry to where you're working which could be a job in itself in some situations, but is it worth the risk? Younger techs may think so, but older and wiser techs know better. You could get a short ladder with a built-in tray for tools so it could have other uses and make the effort carrying it more worthwhile. Regarding the circuit board, on the face of it that looks like a simple burnout and an electronics tech should be able to replace the component very easily. I'm not personally familiar with those boards but looking at the position of the burned component and the surrounding components suggests that the it was a snubber that failed. A snubber it used to prevent contacts from burning. The board would likely with with that component simply cut off, but then the relay it was protecting would then be vulnerable to contacts burning. The problem was likely caused by back-EMF from the compressor or fan contactor when the relay contacts opened. Maybe the board is being used outside design specification in some way. The exact components and electrical parameters would need to be known to calculate if there is such a problem. I can't help thinking there's something funky going on as snubbers seldom cause issues when correctly specified. Maybe those control boards are not suitable for directly driving contactors in some situations require an intermediate relay to function reliably and have a long life.
What is some good literature or study guides for troubleshooting commercial HVAC systems mainly rooftops, recommend, especially for those guys that have been thrown out there to the wolves and really don’t have those senior techs to call for troubleshooting support
The part on that failed board was a MOV surge protector, it can probably be replaced (use the part number off of one of the other three) and the board revived. That is the normal failure mode of a MOV that has seen repeated surges. If you want to send that board to me I can get it fixed. Reply to this comment if you want to send it and I will contact you.
Relay next to it was smoked, too. That was probably the first part to fail and start a cascade but I'd be suspect of the ice cubes running the condenser fans spiking too hard on break.
@@Skid6660 A possibility, but I think the relay is most likely OK, since the melting was localized to the are of the MOV. But it would cost very little to replace the relay too as a precaution.
@@nhzxboi Aren't you just a ray of sunshine? Maybe if your channel had some content and more than yourself and your partner as subs you wouldn't come across as a troll.
Sorry MsShmuck. I'm just old and subject to rays of rubbish but I do appreciate sunshine now and then. Would I have content at my old age of 56? Nah. Nobody did that for me when I was your age. So suck it baby dude. I had to.
That board component is a varristor, the board too a voltage spike and they self destroy to save the rest of the board. If it did its job properly you should still be able to jump it out to keep them going. It just won't be protected from voltage spike.
❤ name of the game get the customer up an running regardless what we have to do !!! Them units were all nasty dirty.. and your right be prepared!! The key to efficiency is staging having everything we need a ready available… also? It is sad big companies toss an educated Teck into an environment that would make an experience Teck pull their hair out. But sadly it’s about the money not the customers best interest…
IDK how much that modul costs but it might be cheaper to have an electronics repair shop have a go at it. Judging from the looks of it might have one or two damaged relays around the burnt component which looks like a MOV.
I do board repair. That might be a good niche market for someone like Louis Rossmann since these boards are impossible to get. Sometimes it’s just a 3 cent SMD capacitor that over heats.
Just a tip for you and others to save a little effort: you don't need to pull both wires of the capacitor to test it accurately. One clear terminal is enough.
Probably the same way I have and would’ve done it. Curious as to what killed the board I have no knowledge on how it interfaces but my assumption is just a MOV cooked, from the MOV placement it is across the coil of the relay. Could be a relay with an issue but if the MOV is still shorted theoretically you could cut out the MOV and only issue is when that relay kicks on and off there could be little transient voltages that confused the IC. But I realize that is another hole can of worms
@@HVACRVIDEOS looking forward! To put a finer point on it I guess it may have to do with the age and condition of the blade but my dad has this hard rule that we ALWAYS change them together and I'm not sure that's the way to go.
In the video, you mentioned that one of the other units was scheduled for replacement. If the replacement is happening in the near future, would you be able to scavage the failed part from it? If so, it might be a faster/cheaper way to get the third stage back online with a 'proper' control system.
Is here any handyman who could change burnt varistor and relay on that board and test the board coorectly? To me it looks like there was some overvoltage, so the board could be salvaged. I know that I suggest a dirty hack. But to have temporary solution to spare some time for your customer to get the new equipment - is it worth a try?
Why does Lennox pay extra to use BLACK service outlets and frames in the electrical section of the units. You'd think white or beige would be cheaper. Big brain repair btw!
Holly!, how many Fieldpiece probes you got? I only got 1 set and already crying of the price. I'm surprise you didn't have to step up the fuses. Also, can the customer live w/o 3rd stage? btw, usually it just the capacitor and small relay that go bad on the board. I fix them and resell it back to customer as refurbished. You can make good money it only cost few buck.
I agree with you on new techs, but you should never become a tech until you go from helper to mechanic first. I installed the first part of my life till I became a residential tech.
clearly an aged mov melted the relay a pack of movs and a relay is all you need to fix that board tell the customer they can avoid the wait if they do that but to order a new one anyway because further damage to the board is likely and yes, movs die, they are your sacrificial part when experiencing overvoltage, which is actually common with inductive loads, like compressors they are most often used in power strips with nothing more than a clever fuse and led arrangement to shunt lightning until they short out(which is how they ALWAYS fail) in the case of that board they have no fuse, or they relied on the global 24vac fusing to protect against burning, but given it is a 3-compressor rack with 4 fans it might have been designed higher than the board is designed for(or they just expect it to be burned and swap it when it dies) kinda half-assed to have MOV's that will melt the relays when they INEVITABLY fail, rather than a set of screw terminals that leave the mov floating and swappable
I was just wondering.. If the motor gets power it should run after a little push even if the capasator is defective right? I have no clue if this also is the case with 3phase motors, but from my experiance working on everyday stuff that seems to be the case.
Depends if it is a start or run cap. A little push will get it running if it is a start cap but not if it's a run cap. 3-phase motors do not use caps at all.
That was a really smart idea bypassing that board. It may not be intuitive to us newer guys, but that was amazing, dude.
To save time instead of removing the 5/8” nut which is usually corroded, take a long screwdriver and pry the gap open to clear the plastic plug and pull straight up. Lol
If your a residential guy this should always be an option
Thanks Bud
@@leonardlewis5586that's true but if you work for the big companies the ones that pay really well I just put in that part and most likely somebody else is going to go install it😂 no reason to rewire anything going home to ride the motorcycle
The last part of your video really hit home about being sent out to learn on your own. I did residential installs for about 5-6 years with 0 service experience. I decided to get in to commercial industrial as a service tech to broaden my knowledge. My first employer would send me anywhere and just expect me to know how everything worked with the responses if I didn’t know “it’s just a rooftop”. It really stressed me out and discouraged me. I’ve tried really hard to try and learn and absorb as much as I can by watching others, especially your videos. I still feel very inexperienced and struggle even with my new employer. Wish I could go in to jobs with the confidence you have, even when you don’t know. Just want to say thanks for spreading your knowledge to struggling techs like myself, it really means a lot. So thank you Chris
Go back to residential. That's where the money is. Anyway, work for one of the really big companies. You might not even install parts anymore. This guy is making UA-cam videos in the hope that he'll get big enough so he doesn't have to do this anymore😂😂 watching this video you don't even know if any of those condenser fan motors were actually bad😂😂 he just threw Parts at it like most of us do😂 he just has enough knowledge that when the condenser fan motors didn't fix the problem he was able to move on to the board
@@JacobsNews in what way is it more money, is it the sales? Commission or just more side work and being able to get more side jobs
@@ufcpubg1964 ufcpubg1964 I would say all of the above.. you used to get paid more in commercial today. Residential pays more..... I got a $5,000 half up front half in 6 months sign on bonus...... get 5% of total sales, and I get commission on parts and new installs... and if you want to open your own business in the future, it's much easier to get residential jobs than trying to get these commercial contracts.. and Commercial sucks 40 ft extension ladders walking a mile just to get to the unit on top of a mall .....the stress of having to fix a unit or they're going to have to evacuate an old folks home... units that have been rigged for the last 20 years... look at the video, you have a Master Tech, and he fired the parts Canon and at it. Then, after he installed all that stuff, he had to rig it because it actually needed a board... which he most likely won't even tell anybody about, so that's another rigged unit out there that you're going to come across...
One thing my mentor taught me early on: "The problem lie where the power dies and there's 3 things that make any piece of machinery work. You need air, fuel, and electrical to make everything work." That has greatly helped me ever since, even when I don't know what I'm doing
What you have that many don't have is in depth understanding of how the equipment functions. This is very important and not normally taught in basic school. This is why you can figure out a way to get the customer up and running and save the situation. This is true for any service and any industry, As you know you might bypass about anything but may not be safe and could cause other issues. I have seen some rigging that is very very dangerous. Keep up your great content and explaining your safe shortcuts. Good job!
I appreciate that
Auxiliary relays are also a good choice. Your second stage can activate your 3rd stage. A lot of manufacturers use it as proof of contactor closure. I like the use of the timer as a safety feature in case of an issue. Another great video Chris
the part that blew up is a MOV aka metal oxide varistor. looks like there's one per relay so it's likely used to suppress transients across the relay contacts to prolong their life. If so, you can just cut it out, with the only negative side effect a possibly shorter life of the relay contacts. If that relay was turning on the condenser fans, if the MOV shorted, it would be sending power to the fan all the time, so a symptom would be the fan running when it's not supposed to. Or whatever is the load connected to the relay would be getting power, but maybe not full mains voltage, so it might also damage it.
Correct.
Or the MOV could be replaced
A local electronics service shop shouldn't find those boards hard to deal with
The component on the board looks like one of those surge suppression MOVs which isn’t critical to the operation. It may have been damaged by a transient spike or lighting strike. Unfortunately not knowing for sure and that it may have damaged something else means it would not be a good idea to leave it in service.
Need to find an electronics shop like us. If you were local we'd have that board sorted and back in 24 hours.
Post a website on your profile or video. Let people know about your services, or post a comment about it. I’m sure he would like to know.
Looked like it was only the one component that is just for overvoltage protection so could have just cut it off and the board would probably have worked until he got a new board
@@JohnDoe-bd5sz MOV incinerated and potentially the adjacent relay gone. MOV probably took out a fuse too. It's not an uncommon fault and why anything with them should be fused.
@@user-ln7of9gs4s the rules are no self promotion:) And we are a few 1000 miles away. There are videos on our profile too :)
repairing them without being factory certified repair would be an liability issue, both for him and you.
I don't mess with hvac/r, most appliances and other boards that deal with anything that can cause harm if it faults. have to cover thy hind quarters. even in case of a freak accident, they'll point at the last person to touch it.
19:45 They must watch all of your videos from beginning to end. I’ve learned a lot from your vids as an electrician
Awesome, glad I could help
You could have used both delays by adding an ice cube relay. From the control voltage of #2 run a jumper through a make-delay to the coil of the ice cube relay, also connect control voltage from #2 to the input contact of the new relay. Connect everything you built to control #3, the delay-break and the hp and lp safeties to the NO contact. Theory of operation. #2 comes on also energizing the make delay. After it times out the relay closes sending control voltage to the break delay and the safeties before closing the 3rd stage contactor. Still no lockout but current inrush is minimized. Edit spelling
Option:
Get a 24v time delay. Have your other compressors contacter paralleled to time delay coil, to energize together.
Bypass the faulty board and use that compressors control circuit and run it through the time delay contacts. Now you’ll have both compressors safeties intact and they won’t bang on at the same time.
Did quite a few field repairs to circuit boards in the past. Swapping burned out relays and reflowing failed solder joints etc.
I was somewhat "thrown to the wolves" but only because my boss knew I had previous electronics and mechanical systems experience, and I demonstrated I could troubleshoot and research things independently if needed.
Quite a few people in the comments section have confirmed my initial diagnosis of the board: the component that "let the magic smoke out" is a MOV, metal-oxide varistor, commonly used to filter out transient spikes and supply voltage surges. You probably could have performed a board-level repair and slapped a 30-day warranty on it by replacing the MOV, and probably the relay above it. Of course, before doing so, one should probably inspect the board and traces to make sure there is no damage...
I don't know how deep your knowledge is (EDIT: of, not is - what the heck was I thinking?) electronics is, and to be fair, a repair like that might be something you don't want to "put your name on" even if you were highly-skilled at board-level repairs. Which is understandable.
As usual, your outro is full of good advice. Being "thrown to the wolves" is far more common than you might realize. It's not specific to tradework, it's also prevalent across most of the food service industry.
Every time they schedule me with someone new - often with one or two days' training, and nothing more - I'm there soothing their frazzled nerves, and telling them something along the lines of "this job throws a lot of info your way, without giving you much chance for hands-on practice, if any. Try to keep calm, focus on accuracy, and the speed will come from time and experience - do not force yourself to meet my pace. Do not be afraid to ask questions if there's something you're the least bit unsure of, because we are a team, and I am here to help. Whatever happens, we'll work through it together."
They usually give me someone barely-trained on hot and iced coffees, and expect me to teach them all the frozen drinks, espresso beverages, sandwiches, cleaning procedures, food handling, the POS (whether it's a point-of-sale register or a piece-of-💩 register, both definitions of POS apply here), closing procedures, and all that during the afternoon rush. And, if somehow I don't have time, or the person has social anxiety disorder and starts to melt down on me and I have them take a brief sanity break, it's somehow MY fault the person on their SECOND DAY lacks the full knowledge I've accumulated over six years (non-contiguous time) with the Franchise.
Sometimes I wish it were as simple as copying a few folders out of my brain onto a USB drive and updating their firmware. 🤣
theirs a weird stop gap these days where there are few old hand techs to teach the new guys either due to bad companies or just ageing out of the field and the companies throwing guys to the wolves to sell mostly; its a shift in the industry where investment companies have bought the mom and pop joints and tried to make them into cash machines its happening all across the board , i myself left for the government side of work and took 4 of my co workers with me
I got called out to help a new guy who accidentally shorted control wiring during PM, and the fuse didn't protect the board. No generic available, 15°F nights. Had to essentially build the broken circuit after tracing it on the board. 3 relays and a time delay relay did the trick, but what a pain.
I find watching you cleaning condensers relaxing maybe because I find cleaning therapeutic, I dunno lol
Burned MOV (metal oxide varistor) which happens on voltage spikes--it's like a fuse, but harder to replace.
That kung fu move with the board was, in a nutshell, Experience. Great job. Kris San! 😆
Lol, thanks
I got one of those CT-XL bags based on your recommendation about a year ago. I don’t go anywhere without it now.
Great job with the Repairs, Chris. 👍🙏
Thanks Bud
I'm not in to the AC stuff but with basic electric knowledge...if the motor is havin power is easy to spin by hand and is hot, the is 99+% capacitor. If its cold, is the motor. Easy take. Thank you for sharing , it is a pain to be in hot sun..hard work just to sit there...Keep good work! LE; that black melted piece is a relay, like a mini comtactor, after a while the electric comtacts will go and will flame and generate heat and that is. You can change only that piece and you will have a working board
Had a similar issue with a couple new Trane Commercial AC condensers awhile back, except it was a factory board issue and not working well with the York controllers inside.. We ended up bypassing it after a call back, even with delays I wired in it still locked out the units. Sometimes you gotta do these things, just make sure everythings peachy beforehand as a proper tech would.
That MOV on the board let the smoke out. Lol
Yup. Likely could just swap that MOV out and be good.
@@stazeIIthere’s a business opportunity … go to all the hvac contractors and offer to buy all of the “dead boards” for $5 or Shipping/Handling … fix them up, and sell them back as refurbished.
@@mysticknight9711 yeah, can’t say I didn’t think it. But testing them after repair would be a B
And warrantying them @@stazeII
MOV, or an NTC thermistor controlling inrush? A smoked NTC could indicate a short.
Good catch on the bad board and trying to save the compressor as much as possible
I spent about the same time on the job as I did in the classroom with courses offered by all manufacturers . If you want to be a good service tech take what ever courses you can most are free.
Good video. Also good idea with bypassing the board and adding the time delay
What you described about getting "thrown to the wolves" describes my entire hvac career!! I'm not aware of any company here in Connecticut that doesn't do that. I did things with no apprenticeship or license that I shouldn't have had to do. Heck, I even did things only licensed electricians should do even if ai had an hvac license I shouldn't jave been doing! Talk about test your mettle! Once again Chris, you are amazing. I hope your guys appreciate you as a boss! Please know how valued you are. Very grateful for what you do and how you do it! ✌🏻😁😎👍🏻
Young guys like me (24) 6 years total into the trade, 2 years into maintenance/service
NEED videos like this to LEARN how to SOLVE problems. It’s one thing to change parts, let’s be doctors. Thanks man!
Thanks for watching
I’m being 100 percent here. After doing a 5 year apprenticeship you should be more than capable of doing exactly this. I’ve done this on Trane intellipaks during covid due to back orders. Used 90340 relays and putting a thermostat in the return to get by. Made my own board.
Buenas tardes estimado Chris, tienes un estupendo cerebro para resolver cualquier tipo de problemas como lo demuestras aquí. Un gran trabajo para seguir adelante.
Saludos desde Coacalco Edo de México.
Gracias Amigo
Those are MOVs, surge suppression. They are connected in parallel to the circuit to clamp a voltage surge to a certain level. When they fail short the let the smoke out like that. You can actually use some side cutters and snip the bad one off and reinstall the board while waiting for a replacement.
Because of these things letting the magic smoke out when they fail, they should be fused (on the board with like 2A or so)
That is really bad board design, this can start a fire
@@Fluxkompressor A MOV can clamp 1000+ amps for a very short period. Fusing them would negate the purpose.
@@TofuInc The fuse should be properly rated of course. These peaks in current are in the micro- or even Nanosecond range. No fuse blows that fast.
That is from the QnA of Littlefuse, a manufacturer of MOVs:
Q. How does an MOV fail?
A. When subjected to stresses above its ratings, an MOV can fail as a short circuit. If applied conditions significantly exceed the energy rating of the device, and current is not limited, the MOV may be completely destroyed. For this reason, the use of current-limiting fuses is suggested.
Q. How do you select a fuse to prevent failure of an MOV?
A. Fuses should be chosen to limit current below the level where damage to the MOV package could occur. Specific guidance is provided in the Littelfuse MOV data book. Generally, the fuse should be placed in series with either the varistor or the source ahed of the varistor.
If you can't put a current limiting fuse in to protect the MOV, a thermal fuse could be installed that disconnects the MOV once it gets to hot i.e. has failed short or begins to fail
Not having any protection other than the ~60A Fuse at the disconnect switch is just bad design
Ending speech hit hard because that is so true it happened to me
Im shocked Chris that restaurants have a separate maintenance company do the regular pm's. Where i am on East coast we are all so over run with work they either have same company do work or they just till it breaks which happens a lot.
good job chris you did what you had to do to get them running that is all you can do when the board is not available had to do that myself
Thanks, we have to think outside the box at times
yes we do
Chris you should invest a small pump that would tie into your hose from milwaukee for example that runs off battery to help with water pressure. just an idea my friend.
this was only a varistor, it's for overvoltage protection. You can cut it off, it will run fine... and replace that component with a new one
Oh yes Lennox!! Look at all the access to components! Also many are the same, that’s by design! I like the statement everything is on plugs! By design! M1-6 is an older IMC (integrated modular control). The last generation of the M1 was a M1-8 easy to tell the board is blue. So Lennox produced M2 prodigy M3 energence M4 core in production now. great RTU from a service standpoint! By design!
Just a suggestion: A list of tools and parts foreach type of repair for each manufacturer. I use to do this for IT repair. A list on each unit for the last service date and parts.
if they retire the kitchen unit can you save the boards and other parts if it is the same model to rescue ,even if for temp. use the other units
Delay on make would be a better option. So no matter happens you have a set delay after you get a call, even if that call is a pressure switch "re making"
that burned disc is a MOV spike suppressor , they can and do fail over time naturally , at a pinch u can cut it out without a problem , often they just burn up over time as they get old
Well that MOV is nuked, I was seeing that before, I don't think you did anything wrong, it's from voltage spikes they degrade until they fail! You nicely did that bypass with safety and everything!!! 👍👍
I guess you could also have connected the high pressure/low pressure switch in series with the second stage pressure switches but then you would have basically locked out both compressors in case of a problem!
Love how crafty this temp fix is, you could have potentially wired the pressure switches into a lock relay if they were all NC switches.
Thanks
Smart to have them come on together using the control signal to the other contactor. Why not just wire in a time delay on energization if you dont want the inrush? When you get your board recover the relays. Edit, someone said the same thing
Chris correct me if im wrong here but your taking temp off hot gas discharge on high side compressor which is in a gas state right ?
It hurts to see a board like that go to the trash. It looked like a bad capacitor, a 15 min solder job and you would be up and going. I understand that having every small part for every board is crazy. I just hope you take it fix it later and keep it as a part in your truck! Great Videos!
I had to push that with my company to after plenty of long days struggling and researching, just hoping I crossed all Ts and dotted the i. I’d be working on a rack that’s been beat down and put back into service any way possible. Going down rabbit holes because majority of the equipment is messed up, not right or barely hanging on. You Definitely want to work for a company that will train you and pay for extra training on specific equipment. Great video!
Thanks
It is surprising how many newer techs don't know how to use a couple relays or a contactor and time delay to bypass a board these days.
Had to work on unit in apartment.. The relay was was burned out on the board. Replacement was $500 I use copy relays fuses and cpl diodes got it running. Last I heard they refused to buy a replacement 🤷
100 percent I was thrown to the wolves and it took me years to get back to the trade. Keep up the videos , love them
an MOV blown that hard is most always due to nearby lightning strikes and very high voltage current inductions. it's possible that was energized and the utility grid had a severe over voltage from crossed HV levels, but I'd expect there to have been more parts damaged on it and in the building.
Grreat job Chris has always.
Thanks
Great video thanks 👍🏽
True so very much. In my opinion, go into a proper Apprenticeship (UA or SMW) for HVAC service. Pay is great and you get the time to acclimate into the Trade. Only way IMHO.
I've repaired boards at the component level. Of course there will be times that the components are back ordered too!
True
Chris is exactly right about new techs not having all the experience they need
Sometimes, when you temporarily rig something, the customer will use that opportunity to call around and get a cheaper quote to save 5 bucks. Then, they will try to cancel on you, and now you have a part on order for nothing. I still do it for my good customers that I know won't screw me like that, but the ones that I know are like that will have to wait for the part. Of course, it's different if you could do some work while you were there and charged them for the time you spent getting it going. Still, if all you did was rig one thing to get it going, then most of them would throw a shit fit if you charged them for it and then quoted to return and fix it correctly, even though you did them a huge favor and should be compensated to get it going and to return. Anyway, good job getting it going for them.
Looks like you were in my area again. 😀
I’ve been having having many run ins with Lennox units myself, I must be cursed. 😆
Cursed or just plain lucky ?
@@HVACRVIDEOS I stopped “complaining” when I did a maintenance at a shoe store last week not far from that location, that had 6 large Daikin package units. Man, talk about pieces of crap. 4 out of 6 of the units were flat on charge on 1st stage, one was completely down due to a low voltage short that another company couldn’t figure out (so many unplugged wires and popped fuses everywhere). And these units are not even that old. Lennox are an absolute joy to work on compared to those.
Great video, Chris. Using the 4ft ladder was a good idea, both for your own health and that of the equipment and client relations. It only takes one mistake or something being not as expected or as it should be and you're injured, potentially of work and needing surgery for a busted knee or equipment ends up damaged, all stemming from not using the right tool for the job which in this case was a short ladder. Okay, so the ladder is something else to carry to where you're working which could be a job in itself in some situations, but is it worth the risk? Younger techs may think so, but older and wiser techs know better. You could get a short ladder with a built-in tray for tools so it could have other uses and make the effort carrying it more worthwhile.
Regarding the circuit board, on the face of it that looks like a simple burnout and an electronics tech should be able to replace the component very easily. I'm not personally familiar with those boards but looking at the position of the burned component and the surrounding components suggests that the it was a snubber that failed. A snubber it used to prevent contacts from burning. The board would likely with with that component simply cut off, but then the relay it was protecting would then be vulnerable to contacts burning. The problem was likely caused by back-EMF from the compressor or fan contactor when the relay contacts opened. Maybe the board is being used outside design specification in some way. The exact components and electrical parameters would need to be known to calculate if there is such a problem. I can't help thinking there's something funky going on as snubbers seldom cause issues when correctly specified. Maybe those control boards are not suitable for directly driving contactors in some situations require an intermediate relay to function reliably and have a long life.
What is some good literature or study guides for troubleshooting commercial HVAC systems mainly rooftops, recommend, especially for those guys that have been thrown out there to the wolves and really don’t have those senior techs to call for troubleshooting support
Thanks for another video. Keep up the good work.
Thanks
That MOV had a bad day. Hopefully t here's not an intermittent short that caused it to blow.
Great video. Thank you for sharing
Thanks
Good advice!
The part on that failed board was a MOV surge protector, it can probably be replaced (use the part number off of one of the other three) and the board revived. That is the normal failure mode of a MOV that has seen repeated surges. If you want to send that board to me I can get it fixed. Reply to this comment if you want to send it and I will contact you.
Relay next to it was smoked, too. That was probably the first part to fail and start a cascade but I'd be suspect of the ice cubes running the condenser fans spiking too hard on break.
Don't bother putting any passion into responses. He will not listen. Never does and is pretty much only interested in listening to himself.
@@Skid6660 A possibility, but I think the relay is most likely OK, since the melting was localized to the are of the MOV. But it would cost very little to replace the relay too as a precaution.
@@nhzxboi Aren't you just a ray of sunshine? Maybe if your channel had some content and more than yourself and your partner as subs you wouldn't come across as a troll.
Sorry MsShmuck. I'm just old and subject to rays of rubbish but I do appreciate sunshine now and then. Would I have content at my old age of 56? Nah. Nobody did that for me when I was your age. So suck it baby dude. I had to.
That board component is a varristor, the board too a voltage spike and they self destroy to save the rest of the board. If it did its job properly you should still be able to jump it out to keep them going. It just won't be protected from voltage spike.
Thanks for the info
❤ name of the game get the customer up an running regardless what we have to do !!! Them units were all nasty dirty.. and your right be prepared!! The key to efficiency is staging having everything we need a ready available… also? It is sad big companies toss an educated Teck into an environment that would make an experience Teck pull their hair out. But sadly it’s about the money not the customers best interest…
Exactly right
Board on my Carrier mini split has been out over a year and still can't get one. Told me to replace the unit
Jeez
IDK how much that modul costs but it might be cheaper to have an electronics repair shop have a go at it. Judging from the looks of it might have one or two damaged relays around the burnt component which looks like a MOV.
I am not a technician, so it will be amazing if you show the cleaning process in full :) it's satisfying
Thanks
@@HVACRVIDEOS you are welcome!
I do board repair. That might be a good niche market for someone like Louis Rossmann since these boards are impossible to get. Sometimes it’s just a 3 cent SMD capacitor that over heats.
That's not a bad idea, except for any warranty issues
Just a tip for you and others to save a little effort: you don't need to pull both wires of the capacitor to test it accurately. One clear terminal is enough.
Do you have to discharge the capacitor before testing?
@pandrosik always a good idea to prevent damage to the capacitance meter
Probably the same way I have and would’ve done it.
Curious as to what killed the board I have no knowledge on how it interfaces but my assumption is just a MOV cooked, from the MOV placement it is across the coil of the relay. Could be a relay with an issue but if the MOV is still shorted theoretically you could cut out the MOV and only issue is when that relay kicks on and off there could be little transient voltages that confused the IC.
But I realize that is another hole can of worms
HEY CHRIS GREAT VIDEO.
Q. When replacing fans and blowers do you always change em out as a set with the blade or squirrel cage?
Thanks Bud, good question also, I think I'll talk about that a bit more on this Mondays live stream
@@HVACRVIDEOS looking forward! To put a finer point on it I guess it may have to do with the age and condition of the blade but my dad has this hard rule that we ALWAYS change them together and I'm not sure that's the way to go.
In the video, you mentioned that one of the other units was scheduled for replacement. If the replacement is happening in the near future, would you be able to scavage the failed part from it? If so, it might be a faster/cheaper way to get the third stage back online with a 'proper' control system.
That's a great idea, I'm not sure exactly when the change out is happening though
Could you have installed time delay that breaks for 5 minutes on a make call, so the compressors don't start at the same time?
Good way to do a permanent "temporary" repair :D
I agree with you on these companies throwing these rookies to the wolves.
We need people in this industry.
#KeepBeerCold
Is here any handyman who could change burnt varistor and relay on that board and test the board coorectly?
To me it looks like there was some overvoltage, so the board could be salvaged.
I know that I suggest a dirty hack. But to have temporary solution to spare some time for your customer to get the new equipment - is it worth a try?
Probly that leg pulled quite a bit of amperage trying to start, just a guess 😮
Good video
Thanks
Love the vid
Ur elite echelon
Thanks Bud
Why does Lennox pay extra to use BLACK service outlets and frames in the electrical section of the units. You'd think white or beige would be cheaper.
Big brain repair btw!
Thanks
if you cant get a replacement.
go to electronics repair shop.
let them repair the board.
crazy idea i know.
repairing something instead of replacing.
Back in the 80's and 90's we contracted a company that could repair solid state circuit boards of any type.
Guess that's all gone.
Why do they pipe the condensate away from the roof? Just cosmetics?
Holly!, how many Fieldpiece probes you got? I only got 1 set and already crying of the price. I'm surprise you didn't have to step up the fuses. Also, can the customer live w/o 3rd stage? btw, usually it just the capacitor and small relay that go bad on the board. I fix them and resell it back to customer as refurbished. You can make good money it only cost few buck.
I agree with you on new techs, but you should never become a tech until you go from helper to mechanic first. I installed the first part of my life till I became a residential tech.
Looking at what smoked, would be easy for someone to repair the board rather than replace it…
when u check cap only remove one wire. saves time lol
Wouldn't it be worthwhile at this point to refurbish the boards for older units?
I had a similar thought I think got deleted. Repairing electronics is not allowed 📱
Why don't you just fix that little capacitor that blew, the component is probably like $3
Your customer likes to pay the power company lots of money!!!!!!!!!!
clearly an aged mov melted the relay
a pack of movs and a relay is all you need to fix that board
tell the customer they can avoid the wait if they do that but to order a new one anyway because further damage to the board is likely
and yes, movs die, they are your sacrificial part when experiencing overvoltage, which is actually common with inductive loads, like compressors
they are most often used in power strips with nothing more than a clever fuse and led arrangement to shunt lightning until they short out(which is how they ALWAYS fail)
in the case of that board they have no fuse, or they relied on the global 24vac fusing to protect against burning, but given it is a 3-compressor rack with 4 fans it might have been designed higher than the board is designed for(or they just expect it to be burned and swap it when it dies)
kinda half-assed to have MOV's that will melt the relays when they INEVITABLY fail, rather than a set of screw terminals that leave the mov floating and swappable
Those boards have been back-ordered since 2015. Dust in the wind.
All we are is dust in the wind
The cable management is so bad. If the company that makes these AC units doesn’t care then why should I buy one.
Throwing the tech to the wolves is the only way I’ve ever heard companies do it
The restraints don’t have a make up air unit? Is that not mandatory? Here MUA units are mandatory. 🤷🏾
I've realized why all the titles are in ALL CAPS , this is a guy who's spent far too long near loud ass machines
Could you repeat that a little louder
Hawoooo! Woolfs 😁
I was just wondering..
If the motor gets power it should run after a little push even if the capasator is defective right?
I have no clue if this also is the case with 3phase motors, but from my experiance working on everyday stuff that seems to be the case.
Depends if it is a start or run cap. A little push will get it running if it is a start cap but not if it's a run cap.
3-phase motors do not use caps at all.
@@uzlonewolf you learn something every day, thanks for the response. more research is needed :)