I always find "broken reversal" discussions among newer FG players really interesting because reversals have gotten continuously more and more tame over the years, so the best reversal in a given modern game (OD Amnesia, for example) still pales in comparison to many reversals in older games. If you can bait it and punish it, your reversal is not in the running for best reversal of all time. So many old school reversals are free, safe on block and/or have no whiff recovery, lead to huge damage and set play, and there's basically no counterplay. Probably the strongest reversal in any game I've played has been Maya's DP at the start of Season 2 of KI 2013. Meterless, fast, something like +10 on block and builds her game-winning dagger resource, 30% unbreakable damage and full stage corner carry on hit. You could knock Maya down and be a full screen away from her and she would still wakeup DP because on whiff she could still get pressure. I've never seen a reversal that was so readily available and so impossible to dissuade someone from using. The only counterplay people could find before it was patched out of the game was doing ridiculous stuff like meatying her with your own DP, or certain character-specific hurtbox-shifting tricks that were unreliable because she had 3 versions of the DP with different startup and angles.
I think what you said at the end of the video would be an interesting video idea. Characters that have really good moves but are overall meh just because of the rest of their kit. One that comes to mind is Yoshimitsu's flash from Tekken. Really amazing move that would be broken on anyone else but is fine on him because he's not very good.
It's the range that balances it. You extend the range on Yoshi flash at all and now he can punish so many moves that would be safe against anyone else. He can still punish certain moves with it that no one else can, but not many due to the range. Also, it stole moves in Tekken 4, including stances. Giving a stance character access to other characters stances sounds insane, but not in Tekken 4. Anyone familiar with Tekken 4 knows why, goofy game
Rose really isn't meh, she's a fine character with a great tool. Louffy's run at EVO 2014 showcased how the character was amazing if you knew exactly what to do. Absorb health with focus to try and get 3 uses of U2 per round, charge meter like a madman especially if your oponent throws fireball and you can absorb them with the scarf thing, and generally impeccable spacing on all those dirty frame traps she has.
jiren in dbfz season 3 had a counter that worked on every non super in the game, grabs included, but the rest of his kit was pretty weak so he didn't see much play, if I remember correctly.
CPS1 Sagat is the real king of Reversals. Reversal Tiger Uppercut doesn't generate proximity guard, making it genuinely unblockable. Sagat can piano guaranteed DPs while guarding and on wakeup. Mashing DP during blockstun is often an Option Select. I'd love to see a video on this.
Ok actually, no joke, this one move alone is almost single-handedly responsible for why I switched over to maining Dictator in SSF4: I swear there is nothing funnier to me in this world than seeing a Rose confidently activate her unbeatable blue balls, and then blowing right through all of it with a single EX crusher.
@@Y20XTongvaLand The orbs are treated as normal projectiles. EX crusher wipes out normal projectiles on contact, and also passes through the opponent’s body regardless of whether it’s hitting or being blocked. You basically get to erase her ultra at will for the cost of a single EX bar.
The thing I find interesting about Theroy Fighter's videos is, I can never tell if he's playing music in the background. It SEEMS like something's playing, but you don't notice it until the end where the metal kicks up to full volume. This is besides of course, the videos being an instant click every single time. :)
Zappa's summon on AC+R is a good contender for best reversal. Literally an amazing reversal that also enables his unique win condition, removes otg limit on knocked down characters, has a massive hitbox, and doesn't make him airborne. If it wasn't a reversal it would still be a good move, but the fact it's a reversal is absurd.
I never saw it used like this much, but with Menat in SFV you can release her VT1 orbs as a reversal. Allowing you to send out an orb as a reversal without even having to let go of down back. Only the 2 highest orbs couldn't be used for this so she got up to 4 uses of this entirely risk free reversal that you get a combo from that you can make huge by spending more orbs.
I'm a fan of kyos ex orochinagi in kof xiii which was the fastest physical attack in the entire game at 2frames (not counting king neomax in the air but i mean there setup to that). Going half the screen and doing 40 percent, it is insanely hard to safely pressure him, safejump him etc. All blocked pokes can be punished, most specials arent safe enough, hell even some light kicks arent even space, jumping or hopping? Lol. And if he is in HD, he will remove at minimum 80 percent with his neo max followup. I legitimately dont understand why he has that kind of move in that game lol
And don't forget the anywhere juggle property of his aerial Orochinagi. For one meter, you're getting an easy punish from hitting a midair opponent. And if they're high enough and you have enough stocks, you can easily drop another super or two.
Its kind of like Ice Barrier in Yugioh. They've got a searchable, non-once-per-turn rota, combined with one or two ways to get into a combo that ends in a draw 4, and still nobody takes them seriously.
Me and my friend were playing every snes fighter we could find in my roms collection and we were playing a yu yu hakusho game at one point i whiffed heavy flash kick with kurama my friend shoots a super fireball at me to punish, it goes straight through me, then he then hits me with a normal figuring there's no way this move is invincible this long and he gets hit by my somehow still active fully invincible move.
It was fun learning about one of the dumb things in SSF4. You don't really hear much about this specific version of SF4 so I really enjoyed learning a handful of things about it, especially since it is the version of SF4 I had the most experience with (on the 3DS).
H-Ryougi 22C (EX knife toss) in Melty Blood has to be one of my favorite broke ass reversals. Only 1f of invuln, 1f startup multihitting (4) plus on block projectile that won every trade and you could combo off of it. If there was a gap, she could take her turn. Pressuring her with 100 meter is absolutely obnoxious since normal character have to go out of their way to hard bait it with a low profile move… which not everyone had. The single frame of invuln also guaranteed she could always mash it out on wakeup and force a trade in her favor unless you meatied with something that gave HKD like a sweep, which makes followup pressure options much worse if she doesn’t do it.
I love people still talking about sf4u, it was my first serious fighting game and I have such a love for it. The move rose does reminds me of melee spacies wakeup shine in some ways which is kind of funny.
I feel with a lot of these videos I find myself saying “I knew it was good, but I didn’t know it was THAT good” a lot, I think that’s due to my lack of experience with these games.
Huh? I don't remember it being that broken in Ultra, and considering you didn't mention it or even used the Ultra Version of Rose then it probably got nerfed
it’s got no invincibility nor is it “instant”, how is it considered broken? there are lots ways to apply pressure on knocked down opponents and be safe on whiff, let alone against a non-invincible move. if a move with no invincibility and a 5f startup beats your pressure, it’s your fault and you deserve eating the combo.. even though 5f is considered fast for ultras, it’s not close to fastest in sf4 at all. fastest normals are 3f, fastest DPs are 4f, fastest strike Super is 2f, fastest Super and Ultra are 1f. Rose can be hit out of the ultra on wakeup when you apply the pressure correctly (it’s not even hard even for low tier players…) nothing about her ultra2 is broken at all…
Those are its statistics for USF4, right? This video is about SSF4. Checking Eventhubs, the startup is listed as 1+4, but as he demonstrated, its safe against meaty attacks and trades positively, so at best youre leaving her alone and she gets away scot free.
I always find "broken reversal" discussions among newer FG players really interesting because reversals have gotten continuously more and more tame over the years, so the best reversal in a given modern game (OD Amnesia, for example) still pales in comparison to many reversals in older games. If you can bait it and punish it, your reversal is not in the running for best reversal of all time. So many old school reversals are free, safe on block and/or have no whiff recovery, lead to huge damage and set play, and there's basically no counterplay.
Probably the strongest reversal in any game I've played has been Maya's DP at the start of Season 2 of KI 2013. Meterless, fast, something like +10 on block and builds her game-winning dagger resource, 30% unbreakable damage and full stage corner carry on hit. You could knock Maya down and be a full screen away from her and she would still wakeup DP because on whiff she could still get pressure. I've never seen a reversal that was so readily available and so impossible to dissuade someone from using. The only counterplay people could find before it was patched out of the game was doing ridiculous stuff like meatying her with your own DP, or certain character-specific hurtbox-shifting tricks that were unreliable because she had 3 versions of the DP with different startup and angles.
if i had a dollar for every time theory fighter covered rose shennanigans, i’d have three dollars. it isn’t a lot but it’s odd that it happened thrice
spotted in the wild
Three dollars. He also did a video on A2 Rose's punch alpha counter three years ago.
Such is the nature of rose
Rose is cool tho
can't wait to see the sfv shenanigans covered
Gotta love how literally every reversal in the initial tweet isn't even in the top 10
I think what you said at the end of the video would be an interesting video idea. Characters that have really good moves but are overall meh just because of the rest of their kit. One that comes to mind is Yoshimitsu's flash from Tekken. Really amazing move that would be broken on anyone else but is fine on him because he's not very good.
It's the range that balances it. You extend the range on Yoshi flash at all and now he can punish so many moves that would be safe against anyone else. He can still punish certain moves with it that no one else can, but not many due to the range. Also, it stole moves in Tekken 4, including stances. Giving a stance character access to other characters stances sounds insane, but not in Tekken 4. Anyone familiar with Tekken 4 knows why, goofy game
@@H8erfisternator Sure, but you give this move to anyone else and it would be completely absurd. Imagine playing against a Lee or Steve with flash
Rose really isn't meh, she's a fine character with a great tool. Louffy's run at EVO 2014 showcased how the character was amazing if you knew exactly what to do. Absorb health with focus to try and get 3 uses of U2 per round, charge meter like a madman especially if your oponent throws fireball and you can absorb them with the scarf thing, and generally impeccable spacing on all those dirty frame traps she has.
jiren in dbfz season 3 had a counter that worked on every non super in the game, grabs included, but the rest of his kit was pretty weak so he didn't see much play, if I remember correctly.
From 4:37 onwards, you perfectly illustrate why I was pissed when they nerfed this Ultra by adding a frame of startup to it.
CPS1 Sagat is the real king of Reversals.
Reversal Tiger Uppercut doesn't generate proximity guard, making it genuinely unblockable. Sagat can piano guaranteed DPs while guarding and on wakeup. Mashing DP during blockstun is often an Option Select.
I'd love to see a video on this.
I need to see a video on this, this sounds amazing and horrifying at the same time lol
What is CPS1?
I think it’s the name of the actual PCB the game was on .
Basically the older versions of SF2 before Super. World Warrior, Championship and Turbo/Hyper Fighting.
Ok actually, no joke, this one move alone is almost single-handedly responsible for why I switched over to maining Dictator in SSF4: I swear there is nothing funnier to me in this world than seeing a Rose confidently activate her unbeatable blue balls, and then blowing right through all of it with a single EX crusher.
How is Psycho Crusher the remedy?
@@Y20XTongvaLand The orbs are treated as normal projectiles. EX crusher wipes out normal projectiles on contact, and also passes through the opponent’s body regardless of whether it’s hitting or being blocked. You basically get to erase her ultra at will for the cost of a single EX bar.
@@deadfr0gnever know that no wonder why bison can go through projectile in sf4
Had no idea the move was this broken, I've never played SF4 much but I'm excited to see the game come back whenever the rollback project is finished
It isn't too clear from the video, but it was nerfed in subsequent releases of SF4.
not a real fan if you only wait for "rollback" to "fix" the game
@@graylyhen9490 yeah im not a fan yet because i cant play the game lol
The thing I find interesting about Theroy Fighter's videos is, I can never tell if he's playing music in the background. It SEEMS like something's playing, but you don't notice it until the end where the metal kicks up to full volume. This is besides of course, the videos being an instant click every single time. :)
You know what also killed people in 4 was roses stand medium kick in the ultra patch. The throw invulnerability was very powerful.
Zappa's summon on AC+R is a good contender for best reversal. Literally an amazing reversal that also enables his unique win condition, removes otg limit on knocked down characters, has a massive hitbox, and doesn't make him airborne. If it wasn't a reversal it would still be a good move, but the fact it's a reversal is absurd.
Somewhat held back by the fact that he might get a summon so getting to use it is unreliable. His actual best reversal is getting dog.
I never saw it used like this much, but with Menat in SFV you can release her VT1 orbs as a reversal. Allowing you to send out an orb as a reversal without even having to let go of down back. Only the 2 highest orbs couldn't be used for this so she got up to 4 uses of this entirely risk free reversal that you get a combo from that you can make huge by spending more orbs.
I mained Rose because of this channel when I first started taking FGs serious. Love your videos!
4:54
I call this, "the Jigglypuff theorem" Or, "why having the best move in the game doesn't make you the best character."
Waiting on that Theory Fighter Logo t-shirt my guy👌much love btw!
had to throw in a Mike Ross at the end of that Honda segment lmao
The ochio punish on the whiffed f+HK was nuts, I had to
I'm a fan of kyos ex orochinagi in kof xiii which was the fastest physical attack in the entire game at 2frames (not counting king neomax in the air but i mean there setup to that). Going half the screen and doing 40 percent, it is insanely hard to safely pressure him, safejump him etc. All blocked pokes can be punished, most specials arent safe enough, hell even some light kicks arent even space, jumping or hopping? Lol. And if he is in HD, he will remove at minimum 80 percent with his neo max followup. I legitimately dont understand why he has that kind of move in that game lol
And don't forget the anywhere juggle property of his aerial Orochinagi. For one meter, you're getting an easy punish from hitting a midair opponent. And if they're high enough and you have enough stocks, you can easily drop another super or two.
Its kind of like Ice Barrier in Yugioh. They've got a searchable, non-once-per-turn rota, combined with one or two ways to get into a combo that ends in a draw 4, and still nobody takes them seriously.
I miss Bison's reversals. He was so hard to punish on escapes it was... Liberating...
My reversal hall of fame has slayers backdash from guilty gear, mk9 sonyas ex cartwheel, and half the dps in karnovs revenge
Fr some of the Dps in karnov’s revenge are wild
I FORGOT SONYA HAD THAT SHIT
I love that opponents do a 😧 face during the super start animation in SF4
Me and my friend were playing every snes fighter we could find in my roms collection and we were playing a yu yu hakusho game at one point i whiffed heavy flash kick with kurama my friend shoots a super fireball at me to punish, it goes straight through me, then he then hits me with a normal figuring there's no way this move is invincible this long and he gets hit by my somehow still active fully invincible move.
Kurama super soldier
It was fun learning about one of the dumb things in SSF4. You don't really hear much about this specific version of SF4 so I really enjoyed learning a handful of things about it, especially since it is the version of SF4 I had the most experience with (on the 3DS).
Wake up babe, new theoryfighter video just dropped!
Your vídeos are amazing, thx for your content
always played Rose in SF4 and I was very excited when Luffy won
it's always the most unassuming moves that end up the most broken
Get you a man that looks at you like theoryfighter looks at Rose
H-Ryougi 22C (EX knife toss) in Melty Blood has to be one of my favorite broke ass reversals. Only 1f of invuln, 1f startup multihitting (4) plus on block projectile that won every trade and you could combo off of it. If there was a gap, she could take her turn. Pressuring her with 100 meter is absolutely obnoxious since normal character have to go out of their way to hard bait it with a low profile move… which not everyone had. The single frame of invuln also guaranteed she could always mash it out on wakeup and force a trade in her favor unless you meatied with something that gave HKD like a sweep, which makes followup pressure options much worse if she doesn’t do it.
MVCI MENTIONED!!!!!
And not negatively no less. Finally we have reached singularity.
You're never too old to engage in drama
A lot of times people talk about "Why not" moves in Fighting Games. Super Rose U2 literally can not be used in a bad way
I love people still talking about sf4u, it was my first serious fighting game and I have such a love for it. The move rose does reminds me of melee spacies wakeup shine in some ways which is kind of funny.
I knew Rose in SF 4 was broken; that's why a person that I know always played with her. This video explains everything!
she's not
I'm a simple man, I see a TheoryFighter video, I watch and I click like xD
She got even better in ultra
4:15 Fei Long? That's Marshall Law! What the hell is he doong here?
OD amnesia has some similarities to roses reversal, while being on a character thats top tier even without it
I don't know if it was intentional, but I think you're now the Rose guy
Request for next video please. Garou: MOTW. Gato's vertical charge punch for counter move. The weirdest input for a counter I ever seen.
Love seeing usf4 content!
I was a struggling Rose main and I wish I would have known this.
I feel with a lot of these videos I find myself saying “I knew it was good, but I didn’t know it was THAT good” a lot, I think that’s due to my lack of experience with these games.
You mean quitting in ranked?
I take it you ran into LTG during his SFIV days
That moment I learn I'm older than Theoryfighter... wtf?
i was gonna make a joke about omega Rugal's genocide cuter being a war crime... but then i watched the rest of the video. Jesus how that was allowed?
Love mystic. Really sound person. One of the first friends I made at an offline
Background song??
thought this would be about sfa2
At this point, this channel is just “Rose Fighter”
ay another Rose video. neat.
Was this patched? I could've sworn active frame would beat her startup. I'll have to test it out again
Huh? I don't remember it being that broken in Ultra, and considering you didn't mention it or even used the Ultra Version of Rose then it probably got nerfed
Why do you pronounce "other" as "over" (sort of)?.
im starting to think youre a rose main theoryfighter
nice
Yeah i fcking hate playing against rose in sf4.
You are i credible
Not gonna lie, I loved how braindead this was.
Remy for SF6
based
Make Blue Nocturne... useable, like at all, god damn, I'm not asking for greatness just make it not literally useless
i agree@@Duothimir
you probably hate rose more than i do LOL
it’s got no invincibility nor is it “instant”, how is it considered broken? there are lots ways to apply pressure on knocked down opponents and be safe on whiff, let alone against a non-invincible move. if a move with no invincibility and a 5f startup beats your pressure, it’s your fault and you deserve eating the combo..
even though 5f is considered fast for ultras, it’s not close to fastest in sf4 at all. fastest normals are 3f, fastest DPs are 4f, fastest strike Super is 2f, fastest Super and Ultra are 1f.
Rose can be hit out of the ultra on wakeup when you apply the pressure correctly (it’s not even hard even for low tier players…) nothing about her ultra2 is broken at all…
Those are its statistics for USF4, right? This video is about SSF4. Checking Eventhubs, the startup is listed as 1+4, but as he demonstrated, its safe against meaty attacks and trades positively, so at best youre leaving her alone and she gets away scot free.
The tales of SF4's vortex game have been greatly exaggerated.
2:41 ryu's face says everything