Just starting the video so it might be touched on but my favorite aspect of both is that, they're not either reskins of male MC tropes (looking mainly at Revy from Black Lagoon) nor do their characterizations rely heavily on basically doing the opposite of male character tropes/sterertypes. They're written from an authentic place where the fact that they're female shines through even though, especialyl for Freiren, it's in subtle ways. Like you could have a male elf and everything would work. You'd be missing something I can't name, and tha'ts fine. Freiren feels like a well-written character that just happens to be female but it's not like she screams "male character with a female skin". Mao Mao is slightly less subtle but still nuanced just the same. She can't be male because of the story/world she's placed in but and it still relies on subtlety regarding her indifference to gender norms. She's not preachy even though she could justifiably be, but she has an interest and that interest/skillset dominates her character. I'm rambling but they're just so freaking dope and well-written and even though I love characters like Kaguya from Love is War who i also find to be well-written, I'm glad there's beginning to be as much breadth in the type of female character written. An aloof character isn't unique in itself, but Freiren handles it masterfully. An obsessive nerd isn't unique in itself but Apothecary Diaries (favorite show from the past 5 years) handles her character gloriously
I totally agree with you! After I watched Frieren, and saw her reviewed as the "female protagonist," I blanked out for a moment. As a female myself, it amazed me how well Frieren was protrayed to not make viewers hyperfixated on the character's gender. Like Inakyu said, she is a baby and a granny (sorry Frieren, you are an onee-san), adorable and badass, with character developements required in a shounen and that is all that matters. On the other hand, Maomao is a female protagonist where being a woman determines how she acts in the brothel, inner palace, outer palace and anywhere else she goes. There is a significance in following this story through Maomao, a girl, so the femininity portrayed in this series isn't superficial . (I have originally been following it through the novels, so a little bit of a SPOILER ALERT. For example, Luomen trained Maomao as an apothecary not a doctor, even when she had the motivation and potentials to be one and acts like one in many occasions because women can't be doctors in their country of Li). The world building is deep. Maomao feels real and relatable because she is living as a woman in the story. Sorry @MegaShinobi2011 on practically repeating what you said.
I agree with most of what youre saying, but i dont think characters like Revy are Black Lagoon are 'male characters in female skin '. Some women have more traditionally masculine traits, and are into action, violence etc. Representing that isnt bad female characterization.
Revy would not be who and what she is, if she wasn't a woman. She would be an entirely different character if you genderswapped her, and the entire plot of Black Lagoon would have to change to accommodate that one singular change. She is leagues apart and above the reskinned male character archetype.
Maomao is something that most anime protagonists are not: Cunning. She's always lying to people, but without negative intentions, and the moment I realized that she was also lying to the viewer by withholding very important information was the moment I fell in love with the show. Too bad the mangaka doesn't have the same talent in lying to the taxman.
@@nyxsantos04 mangaka literally just means person making manga. Nekokurage is the mangaka of the square enix apothecary diaries manga. It‘s not uncommon for the artist to also be the author (though in this case the authorship is largely with natsu hyuuga, the author of the ln), but even if that’s not the case, that doesn‘t mean the artist isn‘t a mangaka. I wasn‘t trying to be condescending, I just thought it was funny how you said „the artist not the mangaka“ when these two words basically mean the same thing
I have to strongly disagree with your take regarding Frieren and fake-Himmel in the forest as well as the statement that Frieren "lacks any understanding of human connection and just wipes Himmel out of the forest without hesitation." It runs counter to the entire point of the scene. In both the manga and animation, the scene is explicitly meant to depict the depth of her connection to Himmel. In both, the hallucination of him tells her to shoot him. She remarks that this is precisely what the real Himmel would say, before she does just that. It's not that there's no hesitation or emotion. It's CERTAINLY not that she lacks understanding of human connection. It's the opposite. The monster takes your own memories and feelings and projects them as a vision. She connected to Himmel so well, and has internalized his values to the point that even an illusion of him retains its commitment to justice and goodness. It encourages her to destroy it, despite this...well, destroying it. The depth and far-reaching consequences of her relationship to Himmel are depicted multiple times in the series (the entirety of her fight with Aura being a huge example of just how much she has taken Himmel's values to heart.) She's surprised that the vision was of Himmel because it means she's changed. She doesn't seem to realize just how successful her efforts to understand humans have been, though it's quite clear to us as the audience. Frieren's commitment to making human connections is a signification part of the point of the series. All of her fun quirks are almost exclusively built around the notion of her caring about human connection. Not just, for example, the fact that she collects quirky spells because of Himmel but also WHICH spells she chooses to gather (Sour grapes for Eisen, or the faux memoirs of her mentor). Her selection of the butterfly hairclip for Fern (butterflies are a recurring motif in young Fern's magic). Stark's birthday dinners, how she handled Flamme's will - all of them illustrate how deep her emotional relationships run.
Proof of Frieren's development is when Frieren is so afraid of Fern's silent treatment because she woke up late in 1st class mage arc that he was begging Stark for help. From taking human interaction for granted to actually faraid those interactions.
I absolutely love your argument, unfortunately I must point out a flaw I have noticed. It is rather minor, though. You note how Frieren remarks that the illusion said exactly what Himmel would say, however even in the anime I always found this silly because of another point you brought up. It is explicitly stated that "the monster takes your own memories ... and projects them." Of course she *thinks* that's what he would say, the monster is using her perception of him, so it's difficult to say objectively. ....At least it would be from this scene alone, fortunately the series has many flashbacks which provide quite compelling evidence for her view of Himmel, such as the time Himmel trusted a demon until he saw their emotionlessness for himself. I also much appreciate your providing the example of the fight with Aura as an additional example to supplement your point. Your point on her surprise is excellent. No notes. I always knew there was more meaning to that scene underneath the surface but I could never quite scratch it. But I think you've put it perfectly and succinctly.
This!!!!! she used a level of spell we rarely see in the anime. SHE NEARLY DELETED A MOUNTAIN, she used more power than she did in her fight against qual. also, the change itself is even more important when you see how she was fully expecting to see Flamme, she was surprised that it was himmel. it was part of her coming to her realization of her feelings for him that she has been denying for years.
One of the things I love about MaoMao is that social status is taken very seriously in her series, it's neither a glossed over bit of colour nor is it made out to be a monolithic force. People don't simply exist in their statuses passively, they negotiate restrictions, find ways to work within or around limits, and the like. A huge part of the genius in MaoMao's writing is how much the series shows that she's aware of and constrained by her status... but also how she works the system, in ways that are consistently entirely reasonable for somebody of her status and level of ability. I like the mystery aspects of the show, but the depth of characterisation that comes from her knowing precisely where she is in the social order, and what can happen to her if she crosses a line, and then actually working within it's structures to give herself as much freedom and happiness as she can get... and then those rare moments when she's strongly enough motivated to risk crossing that line
"Social status is taken very seriously" That's one of the things that would've made Assassin's Creed Origins a good story; instead, the protagonist treats Cleopatra and her right hand man like they're supposed to serve him and nobody calls him out on how out-of-line he is (or his hypocrisy). People fitting into the role they're meant to fulfil shouldn't be a high standard to meet, but a lot of writers seem to order the hierarchy of characters by whose motives and goals are more "important" than others
It's an aspect that i really like about Ascendance of a Bookworm, though the Anime is not that far yet to show it's full detail. It's an Isekai Anime about a bookloving woman who get's reincarnated into the body of a sickly child of a soldier who lives in the poor part of a western medieval fantasy town . one theme that goes through the whole series is the difference in status and culture between the people while she raises up in status when influencal people find out about her uncommon knowledge and uncommonly high mana reserves. The two main social "ranks" are commoners and nobles with differences among the commoners depending on their income from those who scavenge the woods for food and wearing mostly self crafted clothes made from rags and handmedowns, to richer merchants who try to emulate a nobles lifestyle, can afford servants and custommade clothes. The nobles are capable of magic and are classified in rank both by family and how much mana they have (with mana capacity being mostly dependend on the mother) and come in 3 big categories : Laynobles who are often even poorer than richer commoners, mednobles and archnobles. for any commoner to defy a nobles (even of the lay kind) order can mean a deathsentence which goes so far that after a bunch of farmers try to break into (magic protections make it so they can't even dent the door) a monastary build by an archnoble in the name of the local lord is deemed treachery with the normal punishment sentence for that being the annihilation of their whole town.
As a German I can tell you, in Frieren all the Names are very fitting to the characters. Frieren=freezing Fern=far away Stark=strong Himmel=Sky All of them describes the character very good
Heiter = Jolly Eisen = Iron Kanne = Pitcher or (Tea/Cofee) pot Lawine = Avalanche Deneken = (to) Think (verb) Laufen = (to) Run (Verb) Richter = Judge (noun) Übel = Bad/Foul/Nauseous (but not Evil, as that Böse the name of the Dragon that the Heroe's Party fought, as we learn in the last episode) Land = Land (noun) Wirble = Whilr (noun) Ehre = Honor (noun) Scharf = Sharp (noun) Methode = Method Ton = Tone Länge = Lenght Edel = Noble Blei = Lead (noun; metal) Dünste = Vapor Proctors: Genau = Exact/Exactly (used as response the same way Exactly is used in English) Sesne = Scyth Brug = Castle/Town Serie = Series Others Qual = Suffering Lügner = Lier Linie = Line Dhrat = wire (though not the kind Dhart used). Voll = Full Location: Äußerst = Exterme/Outside (probably refers to it being the most northern city before the Northern Territories) Ende = The End.
@@Mariposa-trc I can't agree. In casual conversation, I've never heard anyone say "Himmelreich". To translate it back to English, it would be "Heavenly Realm" and probably used similarly in both languages. "Und siehe, Jesus trat ins Himmelreich ein" ("and lo, Jesus entered the Heavenly Realms") is fitting for a sermon, but "Fido ist jetzt im Himmelreich" ("Spot has gone to the Heavenly Realm") sounds very strange. To add some levity: don't get your consonants mixed up. "Pimmel" is something very different 😆
Fun fact, the light novel source material fror Apothecary Diaries was meant for the female demographic. The manga is seinen because of the manga publisher. And the anime seems to be a mix of the two and have cross demographics
If I didn't know better, I would've mistaken it to be josei. The subject matters they deal with are too dark to be shoujo (even if the anime art style seems to be that), and there's much which a young woman might be able to relate/understand better. I'm still glad that it being marketed/published as seinen would help expand young male's understanding of a woman's world and their vulnerabilities.
@marti9734 I agree in theory. But in practice, if there were not separate demos, then what is basically shonen/seinen will always get made, because it makes more money. Women will watch Shonen, but men don't watch shoujosei as much. Left to its own devices, I think most anime would only cater to men. So that's why I think carving out a space for shoujosei is important.
literally started crying during the maomao section omg the way her curiosity pushes through her fear and circumstances is one of the most inspiring things i've ever absorbed through media i adore her and the entire show so so so so so much im so excited for another season
When I read "cute girls but well written" I think "A Place Further than the Universe". Yes, technically it is "cute girls go to Antarctica", but it is so well written. They are so well written.
Fall season 2023, when both these shows aired, might have been the Best Anime Season ever. Frieren Fridays followed by MaoMao Saturdays was fuckin' magic.
Around 7:55 - I agree, female characters don't have to shed their femininity for character development or something. Not that it's bad, they just don't have to; that should not be the only way to do so. Around 17:05 - Yeah, people need to get over the fact that just because it's demographics says it's for group x of people, doesn't mean it's only for group x people. It is indeed refreshing to have female leads for a change. And that's coming from someone who is looking mostly for a good time, and often dismisses fictional characters as being... well, fictional.
The funny part is based purely off people I've talked to and personal experience, most of the people saying x is only for x group are young adults (18+) that still watch mainly Shounen, which by their logic doesn't make sense, but again I'm sure that's not everyone that makes that point
No it's valid, you have to admit the truth, simple. Whether you watch or not is your choice after knowing the reality. It's like you don't go to ice cream shop asking for tacos.
If you liked Frieren and Mao Mao as complex female characters, I'd recommend you to read Yona of the Dawn. I swear Yona has one of the best female character development I've ever seen in all of the manga I have read. It's a slippery start, but the political intrigue, found family & character dynamics are all so worth it!
@@leikamikaru6155 well... It's implied, that Frieren isn't adult by elven standard. By human, yes, but she's a mix of an old granny and a pre-puberty child
What I love so much about apothecary diaries is seeing Chinese rep hit the main stream , often times in anime only modern China is repped maybe the occasional Qipao. But I’m just so happy to see the apothecary diaries not only in a all Chinese setting but also representing Hanfu so beautifully 🥹
If you are interested in worldbuilding inspired by Chinese culture in anime, I strongly recommend Colourcloud Palace (The Story of Saiunkoku). It's old, and the animation is not as beautiful as AD, but has similar vibe and the story is good.
Stems from real life racial tension between the Chinese and Japanese. A story heavily featuring Chinese characters is far less likely to avoid getting canned by the publisher.
I think the crazy part for me is that I grew up with Chinese Period Dramas. My favorite ones were always the ones where the protagonist has to win the day through clever schemes and understanding of people, as well as what science was available to the scholars of the time. The Apothecary Diaries were like a Chinese Period Drama transplanted directly into anime and I just felt so connected to it. Palace Intrigue is just what I grew up on and I love it dearly. Most protagonists of those period dramas are usually disadvantaged in some way, typically in the fact that they're commoner servants who require a powerful patron to back them. Maomao is double disadvantaged in this society because she's both a commoner and a woman. She's not even up to that society's standard of beauty either (even though she's plenty beautiful to us as the audience even when she's not dolled up, freckles and all). And yet, she's possessed of the quality that makes these protagonists so endearing to us: a good heart. That's why all the scheming and lying and deception doesn't hurt us as the audience. She's doing it while trying to avoid hurting anyone (at least anyone who doesn't deserve it) and she's doing it having thought things through. Most of her actions are deliberate and careful because she knows full well the consequences. It's also fascinating from a storytelling perspective because she's clearly a powerless pawn in this society but her intelligence and knowledge definitely gives her a soft power and influence. ....Aaanyway. I love this story. It just fits my tastes to a T.
frieren's best writing point was the part when she was asked what was her favourite spell. Spoilers Below: She replied it was creating a field of regular flowers. Yes this Demon Lord slaying elite elf with so much collected spells of grandiur and destruction, with so many years of experience, felt home to this dainty, disney princess-like spell. Her test taker was disappointed in such lowly answer since its a silly beginner spell, but frieren felt no shame. It hit home to me because its like when middle school teachers tell kids to draw or write essay on what they wanna be in the future, and it always ended as an power-scaling fest on who can come up with a grander idea. I wrote programmer bc I wanted to join a game company whose games inspired me to work harder irl. Teacher said it was cutely inspiring but since i was a top grader and supposed role model for junior classes, i should "dream bigger". The notion that one must think grand to start their journey on is not really effective. For some, setting small milestones or having simple inspirations without getting looked down on are enough to bring the best out of themselves.
That's not the only reason it was good writing. It was also her mentor's favorite, and one she learned from her, as well as being indirectly responsible for the party of heroes specifically seeking her out, and as a result, saving the world from the demon lord. It's not the spell that's important, it's the connections to others that it represents for Frieren. That's what fundamentally separates her from Serie. Frieren has learned to value other people and her connections with them.
@@itsaUSBline . . . It goes deeper than that. Serie and Frieren are different in their preferences and action. Serie fundamentally dislikes Frieren outwardly. She even dislikes Flamme a great deal. Frieren clearly dislikes Serie. And yet, Serie's room is literally a garden of flowers. She re-entered the mortal world and reintegrated herself with mortal magical society. She didn't have to do any of that. She could have stayed a recluse just like Frieren did for 500 years. What does it matter to an immortal elf? The fundamental difference between Frieren and Serie is that Serie didn't have a Himmel or a 10-year adventure to save the world. And yet, Serie is actually trying to reach out for connection. She's clumsy in that aspect because her only point of reference is Flamme. They fundamentally dislike each other because they're so similar to each other, the only difference between them are slightly different choices they've made and the slightly different connections they have. We see in some later chapters some light hints that Serie really could have had her own Himmel if she only would let them into her heart. Serie has some arbitrary high requirements in a person as well as some issues with an over-inflated ego. Even Himmel had a hard time getting through to Frieren, who didn't have an ego problem. Even then, Serie clearly has some meaningful connections, even if she continually keeps them at arm's length. What's clear to me is that Serie loved Flamme a lot. To the point that Serie's room is a garden of flowers, even if she herself doesn't really care for flowers. Flamme's mortal death clearly hurt her a lot. She's come out of seclusion to look for another one who could be like Flamme "but better". But she's clumsy in that regard and lacks sufficient humility to realize that she's already surrounded by meaningful connections. It's also possible that Serie is afraid of feeling that grief of loss again, which is why her standards are so high. Of course, all of this is just extrapolated from the little bits of dialogue and visuals I can see. I have no qualms at being wrong but it all seems to track to me and it's fun to be able to just extrapolate these depths from a well written (and well drawn) story.
The field of flowers is more important than one might think. If Frieren hadn't impressed child-Himmel with the spell, he wouldn't have sought her out to go kill the Demon Lord. Serie is dismissive of the spell when talking to frieren but has filled the room they're talking in with flowers using that self-same spell.
Wow…. Being a programmer sounds tough especially with all the competition for cs jobs now. Anyway I really like all the deep dives into frieren and serie!
I love apothecary diary so much, dispite the fact tons of people talk about it already i feel like its underated. Ive watched a couple episodes of frienen so i need to get cuaght up.
If you like Apothecary Diary you'll love Frieren. I love both Apothecary Diary and Frieren. And if I'm being honest Frieren is one of my all time favorite fantasies. It's such breath of fresh air.
Maomao is a true girls’s girl and I love that! I feel like she could’ve easily been written like a “not like other girls” and look down on the other serving girls, but she doesn’t!
@@howlingbreeze7078 genuinely that scene made me feel understood. Like sometimes it’s just safer to be unattractive, and I think about it a lot, and it used to drive my choices in clothing lmao
Frieren despised the use of Himmel from her memory that she used that much mana blasting it away. Clearly she valued her connection to Himmel, and would not let anyone get away with tainting her memory of him (another time was when old man questioned her memory of Himmel, or her cold shift in tone with Wirbel...) Most people noticed that it was a huge blast but dont give it a second thought, at least until they watch it a second time
loved that scene, been awhile since i've gone back and watched it but think first thing Himmel said to her was kill me or something like that, thought it was sweet becasue she was a little confused that it was him instead of it being her master Flamme again, shows how much she's grown, other one was the flower episode when she went on a quest to find that particular flower becasue it was Himmel's favorite and he promised to show it to her
to me it's not that she despised the monster for imitating himmel and that's the reason for the large blast but more so to take out the monster like what himmel would want
she cleared the mist totally from the forest, which helped Fern to refocus and gain resolve to do the same to Heiter's illusion. it was not an emotional outburst from frieren, Rather a tactical one where she hit 2 birds with a single stone. she Cleared the mist and also gave just enough push to Fern as a good tutor so she could see clearly (literally and figuratively) and do what she had to do. a learning lesson
These two are such a breath of fresh air it gives me hope that we'll see more anime soon where girls and women are fully fleshed out and compelling characters that aren't there to be sexualized.
@@inesatt1313 Characters that you have listed are from a shounen (for young male) series, that's the reason. To get more well written female (or characters in general), read/watch more seinen (for adult male) or josei (for adult female). Yes, Frieren and Apotechary are seinen.
Frieren became one of my top 3 anime within such a short amount of time. I’m really looking forward to the 2nd season, the content is going to be really juicy!
Apothecary Diaries was a series, that I did not really expect to like. The PV of the anime just looked good, but I wasn't conviced, because there was a lack of interessting things the story might have to tell. But I gave it a shot, liked the main character and said it was alright, until the "slap episode" dropped and I realized for the first time how much invested I actually was in the story and characters. Something that also came to mind when watching you talk about Frieren and Maomao was something The Closer Look mentioned once: What makes a great main character. He had this idea of a triangular "power scale" of capabilities a character can have, and which of those are their strong suit: Competence, Activity and Charisma. A character should never have all of those to a large extend, because they'd turn out to be some kind of mary sue character where everything revolves around them. To be fair, story mostly revolve around the main character, but I think you get the gist of what I mean by that... Anyway, funnily enough I think that Maomao and Frieren actually are the same "kind of character" in this regard, because both of them are highly competent, mildly active and not really charismatic. This is great, because we can most definitly see where the character is lacking and needs external characters to motivate them or get them in the right spot in the story. For example is Jingshi the driving factor that is forcing Maomao to action and easily connects her to other people, because he is very charismatic and knows a lot of people. The flow is very natural in my opinion and we can really feel Maomaos desire to not be involved, even though the series would be deadbeat boring if she really did keep her low profile. But this is also something she kind of fails at, because her thirst for knowledge does give her some form of activity, which in turn is enough to get the ball rolling for the story. Frieren is very similar, where her activity drive might seem lower than Maomaos, but she is determined to reach a certain destination and she is also very responsive to happenstances, like for example when they reach the city where Lügner and his companions reside at that moment. Fern is here the great character due to her time limitation, which automatically pushes Frieren forward to move along. What I wanted to say is that I really like how those series put the female character in competent roles, that pave the way of the series. Female characters are often more likely to fill in some kind of passive role, where they are often the supporting character that pushes the male lead forward. To switch things up doesn't really change much about the series as a whole - the dynamics are only changed up a little bit, but a lot of people pay attention to this, because a female lead of that kind is rare. The leads also do not feel like they are just "male protagonists in female skin", but both of them radiate their own kind of femininity along the way. I like both series and I like the characters. Oh and in regards to fanservice in Frieren. Before Übel made her appearence the artists really went all out on Fern. Fern. Have you seen her outfits? In other series she would be the most likely candidate to be ignored for such artistery, but people want to create artworks of the series, they want to feature Fern and they really love the series. This also kind of shows how much of an impact this series and characters has. Great stuff.
and the artwork was beyond beautiful in both but if i was to choose it would be Apothecary Diaries, just the background scenes of flowers and just random things was not something that was supposed to be that good and Frieren's battle scenes OMFG straight out of a Shonen
I watched both and absolutely love them! Quickly became two of my absolute favorite anime of all time, especially for the amazing female protagonists! Video suggestion: Himmel being the greenest flag ever!
both of them were super sweet without getting super Shojo, both of them had romances in them Frieren/Himmel, Fern/ Stark, mamou/ jinshi, but the romance was not the main focus of the story and it developed naturally and less notice me Senpai.
Hey! We have the same first name! Also I completly agree. Its the first time I really liked an anime with a main character who ACTUALLY is a character that goes through growth and has depth.
@@howlingbreeze7078 Reminder that shojo is a demographic not a genre, there are lots of shojos without any romance or with romance not being the main plot
I have seen Frieren and IMMEDIATELY went on and watched The apothecary diaries because I LOVED Frieren and I saw the two shows associated together. And I absolutely loved both shows and cannot wait for the second season 😭👌💕
the Himmel ghost/monster scene does just as much to characterize Himmel as it does Frieren. The "ghost of Himmel" simply says "do it." Frieren cannot imagine Himmel lying to her or telling her to do anything that isn't the right thing. Her image of Himmel cannot save the monster, because there is no conceivable way Freiren's Himmel would be against dying to kill a single monster.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE FRIEREN. IN MY TOP 5 ANIME AND IT IS JUST THE BEST ONE I HAVE WATCHED IN A WHILE. IT WAS AMAZING FROM THE START TO THE END. IT MADE ME SHED TEARS MANY TIMES. IT FELT REAL. THE CHARACTERS FELT REAL. IT FELT LIKE I WAS LISTENING TO ALL OF THEM. IT FELT LIME I WAS A PART OF THEIR LIFE AND THAT THEY WERE A PART OF MY LIFE. AMAZING ANIME. 10/10
I was worried about the tittle because of the "vs" but glad I watched anyway because your video is more about comparison than competition. Both main characters are amazing without threatening the other. 👍💗
These were two of my top shows of the last SEVERAL years. It's really nice to see shows with really awesome female characters that are cool and awesome while also still being cute and femenine at the same time. It's almost as if they were written to be real fully fleshed out characters and not just to fill the female character quota as an afterthought. I'm really excited to see a video from you on Coco when Witch Hat drops.
I adore characters who're just autistic (struggling with human connections/socializing, difficulty picking up social cues, connecting with others through their personal hyperfixations, resting bitch face, obsession w/ the hyper fixation, being blunt or struggling w/ communication in different ways) like??? chefs kiss I also love how they're genuinely weirdos cause theres like a thing where there'll be a show about a "weird" girl but the weird parts basically like, ya girl wears glasses but she'd be a lil more attractive without them????
Lmao you literally just explained me. 😭I ADORE characters like that as well since I relate to them so much. It's nice seeing those character's be depicted in a good light since in real life, people like that are seen as 'weird'.
By the way, 'The Apothecary Diaries' as a story *is* Shoujo. It may officially have the genre of 'Seinen' as a manga, because it was published in a Seinen magazine - genre and demographic in the Japanese Manga publishing industry are dependant on each other - but the Light Novel that the Manga is an adaptation of for example is Shoujo. And that is evident in that the story in its essence as a genre is very clearly Shoujo/Joesi, therefore, in my opinion, the Anime is also Shoujo. The protagonist, the visuals, the story, the way the male love interest is written - yes Maomao technically doesn't like him that way, but it still counts - the attention and care to the female characters' personality and women's struggles in general, even the opening, are all very clearly reminiscent and typical of Shoujo/Josei Anime. I do think that it does try to appeal a bit to a male audience, as evidenced by some fan service by the concubines and the courtesans, but that is just because it's a marketing strategy. So similarly to, for example, how 'Jujutsu Kaisen' tries to appeal a bit to a female demographic as well, so as to have as big of an audience as they can, 'The Apothecary Diaries' also does the same thing. Yet, 'Jujutsu Kaisen' as a story is still considered Shounen and on one brings that into question, because it is very clearly Shounen. I think the reason for this is because we live in a patriarchal society, in which stories written by and/or for women, especially young women and girls, are often undervalued and seen as inferior, which strongly deters not only a male audience, but even the general public. This may indeed be why the manga was released in a Seinen magazine instead and why there is much more resistance to it being considered Shoujo, as many people, i.e. mostly men, do not like the notion of liking anything that is 'girly', because it emasculates them. Because of this I personally would rather it not be referred to as Seinen, as it in a way takes away something that is supposed to be for girls and women, if that makes any sense, as if the general public can't like anything that is written for girls, because it's uncultured and inferior.
@@Taiga-16 quick rundown: Shonen=young boy Shoujo=young girl Seinen=adult men Josie=adult women Whenever people use these terms in relation to anime,manga,etc. it is to describe who the target demographic is
@@abdellnunez1403 Yeah, but there are certain tropes, general story lines and stylistic criteria that we do associate with those genres and I just don't think this story really matches its supposed genre at all. After all, Shounen and Shoujo aren't just referred to as 'the target demographic', but also are their own genre. I don't know, it's a bit confusing.
Seinen, shoujo and so on are not genres, they just show towards what demographic the show is targeted at. I totally see the shoujo and it has many it‘s tropes and I thought of this show as a mystery and slow-burn-romance anime and was surprised to see that romance is not a listed genre (most times) when you can easily spot the shoujo romance tropes. And overall it’s probably less shoujo but more Josei considering the maturity.
Apothecary Diaries is a light novel series. It got itself a manga adaptation, but the source material are the light novels. The demographic should be determined by the original source material. And the visual and story-oriented "language" (think "movie language") it uses is that of josei manga. The romantic aggressor is the man (for seinen/shonen romance, the aggressor is nearly always the woman. For shojo/josei, the romantic aggressor is nearly always the man). Also the main female character is ostensibly ordinary looking while the main male character is gorgeous. While there are shojo authors, like Yumi Tamura, who present complex characters in shojo series, generally the more complex characters, like Maomao, are found in josei manga. That isn't to say that guys can't like Apothecary Diaries. I'm a straight guy, and I love the series. Any guy who lets the original demographic stand in the way is missing out on half the great manga in the world. Frieren, on the other hand, is straight-up shonen. It's published in Shonen Sunday, and you can't get any more shonen than that without switching publishers. I also fully agree that most shonen action series tend to struggle with female characters (or I should say, they don't bother struggling enough to make good female characters). Since you like Apothecary Diaries, could I suggest you try Villainess Level 99. Although it's in the isekai genre in the Villainess subgenre, like Maomao, Yumiella is quirky and introspective, although her passions and quirks are completely different from Maomao's. She goes into the typical "academy" anime with a fun and consistent internal monologue. (If you try it, know that the first half of episode 1 does NOT represent the rest of the series. The series actually begins after the mid-point commercial break of episode 1. Also know that it didn't get Frieren's or Maomao's budget. The CGI sucks, and the 2D animation, while okay, won't blow your socks off. It's the writing and voice acting that's the hook.)
Hiii I love this video but I’ve only seen Frieren so far so I’ll be back to watch the Mao Mao section after I’ve seen AD. BUT I wanted to talk about how perfectly you put into words why I like Frieren and Fern. I also love the story because for a show where a character is learning about the importance of cherishing time, we get a rather well paced but arguably purposefully slow paced show. We wouldn’t care about Frieren’s struggle if we didn’t get to see the mundane parts of her every day. We wouldn’t care if we didn’t get to see the lives of the people in passing villages she touches just by doing kind things for them, big or small. And Fern is such a good anchor to Frieren in this regard. There are plenty of moments where Frieren wants to stay at a village for way too long and we get comedic moments of Fern having to say “Hey, I’ll have significantly aged by that point. Get up, we’re leaving in two days at most.” but also Frieren wanting to leave villages that she assumes will survive in her wake and not realizing the importance in needing to act in the moment to secure their safety or comfort. That’s also where Fern comes in and says “Frieren. We’re these people’s only hope, we don’t know when someone else with our capabilities might even come by. They need us to advocate and fight for them because we have been lucky to be given the power we have”. Of course Fern isn’t this blunt but it’s all subtext. It’s an interesting and lowkey way of showing that Frieren (a revered hero) is a selfish character at times, who often values her own comfort and goals over others all because she doesn’t have this great concept of time. Idk I’m kinda yapping at this point but *I just think it’s neat*
One cool way Frieren has subverted shonen tropes - which has the tired tendency of "going all out" and always going up power levels - she and Fern both suppress their mana and use the spells needed to get the job done. They're clever about it, their life isn't driven by defeating others and one-upping, but using practicality. I love that!
frierens one of my new favorite shows connected with her as a character super strongly, never seen another show with an aroace character and it meant a lot to me
If you like these two I'd also recommend the "Ascendance of a Bookworm" anime and light novels (fully published official english translation). It has a driven female protagonist obsessed with their goal of reading books, and definitely gives off quirky character vibes. It also has a unique fantasy world.
An underrated aspect of Apothecary Diaries for me is Jinshi. Having read ahead in the manga I can definatively say you girlies are IN FOR IT in season 2.
Just finished The Apothecary Diaries yesterday and MaoMao has become one of my all time favorite characters! Frieren is also up there as well. I love both of these shows so much.
i love apothecary diaries 😍 i would love for you to talk more about how it’s a seinen manga! i definitely assumed it was shojou, and i feel like im probably not the only one! loved this video 😍
The original source is a web novel/light novel written by a female author targeted at women. All this shojo/seinen etc is decided by what magazine publishes the manga. The manga adaptation got published through a seinen magazine, therefore the label "seinen". I think it would have been better if it was officially published as a shojo/josei also for the manga because people think the story is targeted at men with the seinen label when that is not the case. The story is targeted at women but that does not mean that anyone else can not enjoy it
I've only watched videos on Apothecary Diaries made by guys because thats what was in my recommended videos, and it's great that the series is recognized and loved by everyone, but I also appreciate and enjoy a woman's perspective and commentary on it and would love more of it!
Honestly going just by the name and artstyle, i thought apothecary diaries would be some shoujo romance or something, but you've sold it so well that im gonna go watch it as soon as i can
Highly recommend it btw, really fun in many aspects. Maomao really is the goat. But i was right, Jinshi really *really* wants to be a shoujo love interest lmao Big ascendant of a bookworm vibes too, but more realistic (and poisonous)
@@sutirk Although the world of Apothecary Diaries is more grounded, I feel Bookworm is more realistic. The reason is the events in Bookworm are more realistic whereas Apothecary Diaries keeps stacking up mysteries like a detective TV show.
Some bits on both stories too that stood out to me is they focus on elements of the characters being women wihtout discarding or calling them bad. To me Frieren's relationship with Fern, and to an extent the flashback bits of Serie and Flamme, had a big mother-daughter vibe. And it's kind of weird to think how few anime have protagonists who have a mother role, when I can dig up quite a few that have fathers as the main character. Apothacary Diaries I think stood out a lot for often highlighting how kind of rough it is for a woman in her environment, and pointing out things at times that she has to be constantly on guard for that the men around her just don't even consider. Again, kind of just an intersting story in showing perspectives and plot elements that I think often get overlooked in historical or fantasy anime. And your summary of Maomao is pretty good. Sh'es more just kind of a weirdo than a kuudere, and I like how she's also not omni-competent, but having holes in how she acts that create fun problems later. So yeah, good shows for sure. Favorite in a while. Would watch more your takes on them :D
Has anyone here watched "Talentless Nana"? Can highly recommend, has a female lead who def kicks ass while being very girly. Also internal ethical struggle. Actually now that i think i've been almost exclusively watching female lead animes with well written protags.
people talk about female characters "written by a woman" or "written by a man" but it's more about whether the female characters are portrayed as (and limited to) archetypes or as three-dimensional characters.
Just found this video thanks to the algorithm god and I had a blast. You being a casual vibe to just talking anime and your chosen topic and I loved it. Subscribed
Great video! Just wanted to point out 1 thing: 11:30 -> You said Frieren wipes Himmel without hesitation, when this isn't true. Frieren gets told by Himmel to shoot. Because the Himmel she knows is so sincere and reliable that he would never, not even in a hallucination, try to deceive her.
Another thing that makes me like Maomao character is because of Jinshi, the male lead. Him and Maomao has a great chemistry throughout the story. Even though Jinshi has reputation in the palace, he treat Maomao like a human and found interest in her, while Maomao know her place and have to stay in act to prevent conflict.
I had a fun experience with these two shows. I was visiting Japan and both frieren and apothecary diaries were on Japanese netflix so I ended up watching both of these banger shows back to back during all of my down time on my trip (so worth it)
I have read The Apothecary Diaries a bajillion times since I first found it in 2018. I love Maomao so much. She’s the type of person I wish I could be. Genuinely my favorite manga.
Did you seriously just call Frieren gen z's FMA? Hu, that makes perfect sense. That makes a whole lot of sense. Thank you I needed that. It really helped me with something. Sometimes you've been around the block so long and have collected so many anime that are special to you, you can forget that this is somebodies first special anime. I remember when the '03 series was airing on Toonami and how special that was for a young me. Thank you
i watched this immediately before hanging out with my friend who happens to ADORE poisons and Chinese history, I recommended we watch apothecary diaries and we both instantly become obsessed, thank you so much for this gift of a show recommendation
Yes, please do a deeper dive into Apothecary Diaries! I loved the Frieren analysis in this video, but the AD analysis was too short and left me not understanding what you loved about it. Perhaps it was just too vague and didn't go into the psychology of the character as much as your analysis of the characters in Frieren. I think that your careful dissection of Apothecary Diaries' characters, writing, and background would be such a treat!
I haven't seen Frieren yet, but Apothecary Diaries has become one if not my favorite series ever (both anime and light novel series). Maomao is, not to sound like I'm belittling, a very ordinary person who found her niche in life and just wants to do what she loves. Her personality doesn't scream "look at me I'm important" even though she's the main character. She just wants to live her life being an Apothecary and helping those within her reach and those who reach out to her. I also love how the romance is a slow burn and not the story's main focus, but that's more a personal thing for me.
the parts i love about the scene where frieren sees himmel is that A) she's surprised its himmel and not her mentor meaning that shes learning to care about her time with him and the others more and more and B) that himmel actually tells frieren to kill him because at her core, frieren knows that himmel would never stop her or hurt her and he would/will always support her efforts. the monster only shows a reflection of what the person views their most precious person as and what they desire the most from their person, so the depth in fern just yearning for more time and comfort vs frieren understanding that himmel would want her to continue her journey is just chef's kiss
Wow, the way you were describing the Apothecary Dairies, I 100% thought it was a josei! I'd be interested in seeing you review Kill La Kill, Claymore, and the Slayers series on the topic of shounen/seinen with female protagonists. Maybe Ghost in the Shell as well!
I totally agree with there often being one type of strong female character in media when there is also so much beauty and strength in femininity. I’d love to hear you talk more about powerful femininity in manga portrayed in these different ways!
@@LamperougeCCboth are the source, actually. The art style of the anime is way closer to the manga than the light novel, but the story follows both the light novel and the manga (since that also follows the ln), tho season 2 might pass the nekokurage manga depending on its length. There‘s a second manga too, but it isn‘t licensed in English
I don't think many men choose to not watch a show based on the gender of the protagonist. Hell, I got so into Bocchi the Rock that everything else pales in comparison.
But many men still hesitant or avoid consuming female oriented demographic compared to how there's many women that willing to consume male oriented demographic I mean look at jjk or mha fangirls. Yuru Camp or Bocchi The Rock are appealing despite the female cast cuz the target audience is male, so it's easier for straight men to enjoy them.
@@yunfeikwon I'm curious, what makes Bocchi the Rock specifically targeted at a male demographic? There's zero fan service, zero action... why do you say it's targeted at men?
@@ReklawLah because Bocchi The Rock published in seinen manga magazine, you can googled it yourself. And this must be my personal take so it's not entirely represent female oriented demographic, but Bocchi lacked female fanservice and doesn't have shoujo ai or GL tagged as genre. And as I already watch/read many shoujo/josei mangas, Bocchi doesn't have the aesthetic or characteristics that shoujo/josei specialized in. If you think large to all female cast or female protagonist equal guaranteed from female oriented demographic... I'm sorry but I must inform you that you have been wrong. There's many shoujo/josei demographic or I will say joseimuke in Japanese have many male protagonist or large male cast to even all male cast. Banana Fish, Gakuen Babysitter, Natsume and The Book of Friend, Baby and Me, etc etc. are prime example of it. Even dating sim for women like otome game or idol raising game like Idolish7 is existed and marketed for female audience, right? That's why the reverse also applies to male targeted entertainment like shonen, seinen or danseimuke (media marketed to male). Bocchi, Yuru Camp, Umaru-chan all fall into danseimuke category or specifically seinen manga despite having female protagonist.
Plus demographic doesn't equal genre. As not all seinen/shonen are action and adventure, it's mean that there's shoujo/josei that has action, adventure. Just fyi shoujo manga even is the one that introduced or invented isekai concept in manga community back then in early 90s. It's TMI ik but Berserk is heavily inspired by all time popular and influential shoujo manga, Roses of Versailles too. Lacking male fanservice but still able to hook people while having broader range of targeted audience are indeed the strength of seinen demographic. However it also could mean that seinen wouldn't or can't ever replace female targeted media or joseimuke in Japanese.
@@ReklawLah K-On, Bocchi the Rock, and Yuru Camp are "cute girls doing cute things" animes, and this type of genre has been popular with both men and women for a long time. Frieren is fantasy/shounen/action anime with a female protagonists, which is very rare. Most shows that have female protagonists are either shoujo or slice of life. It's very rare to have female protagonist in an action/shounen anime (the same genre as One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, MHA, JJK,etc.), so Frieren is extra special. The Apothecary Diaries is also a shoujo/seinen, but it somehow becomes so popular (as a novel, manga, and then anime) that it also attracts male audience. But this show is definitely not an action/shounen genre, so it having a female protagonist is not as a big deal as Frieren.
I loved the apothecary diaries. Am thrilled for the next season :) and just an hour ago I started watching Frieren. We'll see how I'll like that one :D
I love the apothecary diaries, ive become obsessed with it to the point of hilarity. Just one thing, that, since you haven't read the manga you dont know, but it actually doesnt take place in china, its a made up country whose people and customs do look chinese, but even the map of the country is different, but thats a story for the second season :D
I loved both of these shows so much, I immediately recommended them to anyone who’d listen and everyone that gave them a shot loved them. Imo nothing hits harder than a well written female protagonist.
One note I'd like to make on Frieren blowing away Himmel's phantom--I read the fact that she used enough power to carve her way through a mountain as proof that while she doesn't fully "get" the human emotions, she's still feeling them. She didn't need to use that much power. She's not unaffected, she just showed it differently. And the story did a good job of "showing" it instead of "telling" it.
Man... You are so young. Have you ever heard of the show Slayers and a redhead girl named Lina Inverse? Good shounen anime with female protagonist are not new. They were forgotten.
I loved Frieren cause she shkwed it bs when tbeg make children love intrest an fan service cause "she actually adult just short" cause she is short, but she is drawn with proper proportions and adult voice an mannerisms. Frieren is a short adult (to everyone, not elf) and we know it from jump. When flashbacks to her as a kid, that's when she is drawn with childish proportions. And Apothecary Diaries shows you can have scene FL with her looking drop dead gorgeous BUT not the fanservice shots. And her big sister are more than their bodies they all have talents and humanized as her little family.
I like both series. Thanks for covering this! Someone else mention Yona of the Dawn. The world building is well done in that manga. A shame it never got a season 2. Another anime that flew under the radar in spring and summer this year was Yatagarasu. Think The Apothecary Diaries with a male Mao Mao and a fantasy element. Also done by Studio Pierrot.
1:50 Boys never had problems with female protagonists. For instance, Miyazaki became a legend with lots and lots of them. Shonen have shallow females? Yes. It has shallow characters almost by design. Boys tend to value things over people, so the main points are the fights, the plot, the conflict, the war, the dragons, the weapons, the magic, the animation, etc. Give a good story with a male, a female, an alien, anything as protagonist and they will love it. Even if it is more focused on people than things. I’ve loved the freckles ;)
Both of these protagonists have a strong relatability that makes them enjoyable. I can only use myself as an example, but MaoMao is a good example of someone who starts off relatively poor but not completely broke (lower middle class). There's an expectation of success because she doesn't start at the bottom, but with little ability for upward mobility, and because of that her cunning and drive really showcase her. Frieren is the first show since Violet Evergarden to bring me to tears. As a 40 year old man who beat depression via apathy, the show was a reminder of how easily I can get lost in that apathy, and losing that time with her friends finds a very real correlation in missing my children grow up. Her hunting for spells is my getting lost in work and missing my sons soccer game. I find myself trying to become less like Frieren, and more like Eisen, who, although his life is long, acknowledges his age and restrictions and accounts for that by finding joy wherever he can.
2:05 - Those and the feet folks, who have gone gaga for elf tootsies. (°-°) I'm really glad you like "The Apothecary Diaries." I agree that it was slept on a bit, but I think any other year it would have been at the top of the annual lists. And Aoi Yuki is on fire with her performance as Maomao. Feel free to do that full video on it.
Just starting the video so it might be touched on but my favorite aspect of both is that, they're not either reskins of male MC tropes (looking mainly at Revy from Black Lagoon) nor do their characterizations rely heavily on basically doing the opposite of male character tropes/sterertypes. They're written from an authentic place where the fact that they're female shines through even though, especialyl for Freiren, it's in subtle ways. Like you could have a male elf and everything would work. You'd be missing something I can't name, and tha'ts fine. Freiren feels like a well-written character that just happens to be female but it's not like she screams "male character with a female skin". Mao Mao is slightly less subtle but still nuanced just the same. She can't be male because of the story/world she's placed in but and it still relies on subtlety regarding her indifference to gender norms. She's not preachy even though she could justifiably be, but she has an interest and that interest/skillset dominates her character. I'm rambling but they're just so freaking dope and well-written and even though I love characters like Kaguya from Love is War who i also find to be well-written, I'm glad there's beginning to be as much breadth in the type of female character written. An aloof character isn't unique in itself, but Freiren handles it masterfully. An obsessive nerd isn't unique in itself but Apothecary Diaries (favorite show from the past 5 years) handles her character gloriously
I totally agree with you! After I watched Frieren, and saw her reviewed as the "female protagonist," I blanked out for a moment. As a female myself, it amazed me how well Frieren was protrayed to not make viewers hyperfixated on the character's gender. Like Inakyu said, she is a baby and a granny (sorry Frieren, you are an onee-san), adorable and badass, with character developements required in a shounen and that is all that matters. On the other hand, Maomao is a female protagonist where being a woman determines how she acts in the brothel, inner palace, outer palace and anywhere else she goes. There is a significance in following this story through Maomao, a girl, so the femininity portrayed in this series isn't superficial . (I have originally been following it through the novels, so a little bit of a SPOILER ALERT. For example, Luomen trained Maomao as an apothecary not a doctor, even when she had the motivation and potentials to be one and acts like one in many occasions because women can't be doctors in their country of Li). The world building is deep. Maomao feels real and relatable because she is living as a woman in the story. Sorry @MegaShinobi2011 on practically repeating what you said.
I agree with most of what youre saying, but i dont think characters like Revy are Black Lagoon are 'male characters in female skin '. Some women have more traditionally masculine traits, and are into action, violence etc. Representing that isnt bad female characterization.
Revy would not be who and what she is, if she wasn't a woman. She would be an entirely different character if you genderswapped her, and the entire plot of Black Lagoon would have to change to accommodate that one singular change.
She is leagues apart and above the reskinned male character archetype.
Revy is a wonderful charatcer.
There is no such thing as a "male character in female skin."
Frieren and Mao Mao are an example of quiet people as main characters
As long as you keep Maomao away from drugs...
UHHH, Hitori Gotoh from Bocchi The Rock is included right?
actually this two character show a true personality realistic girl
@@diazkohen2149she’s the loudest person I know
I love quiet fmcs who have brains but no ambitions other than learning cuz bruh same 🗿
Maomao is something that most anime protagonists are not: Cunning. She's always lying to people, but without negative intentions, and the moment I realized that she was also lying to the viewer by withholding very important information was the moment I fell in love with the show. Too bad the mangaka doesn't have the same talent in lying to the taxman.
Why you gotta do the Mangaka like that 😂
it was the artist of the manga that got caught for tax evasion actually, not the mangaka lolol
@@nyxsantos04i don‘t wanna be mean but what do you think mangaka means lol
@@Laura-ns9wx the mangaka is the author of the manga. The artist is different from the author. What's with the condescending question? Lol
@@nyxsantos04 mangaka literally just means person making manga. Nekokurage is the mangaka of the square enix apothecary diaries manga. It‘s not uncommon for the artist to also be the author (though in this case the authorship is largely with natsu hyuuga, the author of the ln), but even if that’s not the case, that doesn‘t mean the artist isn‘t a mangaka. I wasn‘t trying to be condescending, I just thought it was funny how you said „the artist not the mangaka“ when these two words basically mean the same thing
I have to strongly disagree with your take regarding Frieren and fake-Himmel in the forest as well as the statement that Frieren "lacks any understanding of human connection and just wipes Himmel out of the forest without hesitation." It runs counter to the entire point of the scene.
In both the manga and animation, the scene is explicitly meant to depict the depth of her connection to Himmel.
In both, the hallucination of him tells her to shoot him. She remarks that this is precisely what the real Himmel would say, before she does just that.
It's not that there's no hesitation or emotion. It's CERTAINLY not that she lacks understanding of human connection. It's the opposite. The monster takes your own memories and feelings and projects them as a vision. She connected to Himmel so well, and has internalized his values to the point that even an illusion of him retains its commitment to justice and goodness. It encourages her to destroy it, despite this...well, destroying it. The depth and far-reaching consequences of her relationship to Himmel are depicted multiple times in the series (the entirety of her fight with Aura being a huge example of just how much she has taken Himmel's values to heart.)
She's surprised that the vision was of Himmel because it means she's changed. She doesn't seem to realize just how successful her efforts to understand humans have been, though it's quite clear to us as the audience.
Frieren's commitment to making human connections is a signification part of the point of the series. All of her fun quirks are almost exclusively built around the notion of her caring about human connection. Not just, for example, the fact that she collects quirky spells because of Himmel but also WHICH spells she chooses to gather (Sour grapes for Eisen, or the faux memoirs of her mentor). Her selection of the butterfly hairclip for Fern (butterflies are a recurring motif in young Fern's magic). Stark's birthday dinners, how she handled Flamme's will - all of them illustrate how deep her emotional relationships run.
Correct ❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you! Inwas about to comment something similar but you already put it into words 😊
Proof of Frieren's development is when Frieren is so afraid of Fern's silent treatment because she woke up late in 1st class mage arc that he was begging Stark for help. From taking human interaction for granted to actually faraid those interactions.
I absolutely love your argument, unfortunately I must point out a flaw I have noticed. It is rather minor, though.
You note how Frieren remarks that the illusion said exactly what Himmel would say, however even in the anime I always found this silly because of another point you brought up. It is explicitly stated that "the monster takes your own memories ... and projects them." Of course she *thinks* that's what he would say, the monster is using her perception of him, so it's difficult to say objectively.
....At least it would be from this scene alone, fortunately the series has many flashbacks which provide quite compelling evidence for her view of Himmel, such as the time Himmel trusted a demon until he saw their emotionlessness for himself. I also much appreciate your providing the example of the fight with Aura as an additional example to supplement your point.
Your point on her surprise is excellent. No notes. I always knew there was more meaning to that scene underneath the surface but I could never quite scratch it. But I think you've put it perfectly and succinctly.
This!!!!! she used a level of spell we rarely see in the anime. SHE NEARLY DELETED A MOUNTAIN, she used more power than she did in her fight against qual. also, the change itself is even more important when you see how she was fully expecting to see Flamme, she was surprised that it was himmel. it was part of her coming to her realization of her feelings for him that she has been denying for years.
One of the things I love about MaoMao is that social status is taken very seriously in her series, it's neither a glossed over bit of colour nor is it made out to be a monolithic force. People don't simply exist in their statuses passively, they negotiate restrictions, find ways to work within or around limits, and the like. A huge part of the genius in MaoMao's writing is how much the series shows that she's aware of and constrained by her status... but also how she works the system, in ways that are consistently entirely reasonable for somebody of her status and level of ability.
I like the mystery aspects of the show, but the depth of characterisation that comes from her knowing precisely where she is in the social order, and what can happen to her if she crosses a line, and then actually working within it's structures to give herself as much freedom and happiness as she can get... and then those rare moments when she's strongly enough motivated to risk crossing that line
"Social status is taken very seriously" That's one of the things that would've made Assassin's Creed Origins a good story; instead, the protagonist treats Cleopatra and her right hand man like they're supposed to serve him and nobody calls him out on how out-of-line he is (or his hypocrisy). People fitting into the role they're meant to fulfil shouldn't be a high standard to meet, but a lot of writers seem to order the hierarchy of characters by whose motives and goals are more "important" than others
It's an aspect that i really like about Ascendance of a Bookworm, though the Anime is not that far yet to show it's full detail.
It's an Isekai Anime about a bookloving woman who get's reincarnated into the body of a sickly child of a soldier who lives in the poor part of a western medieval fantasy town .
one theme that goes through the whole series is the difference in status and culture between the people while she raises up in status when influencal people find out about her uncommon knowledge and uncommonly high mana reserves.
The two main social "ranks" are commoners and nobles with differences among the commoners depending on their income from those who scavenge the woods for food and wearing mostly self crafted clothes made from rags and handmedowns, to richer merchants who try to emulate a nobles lifestyle, can afford servants and custommade clothes.
The nobles are capable of magic and are classified in rank both by family and how much mana they have (with mana capacity being mostly dependend on the mother) and come in 3 big categories : Laynobles who are often even poorer than richer commoners, mednobles and archnobles.
for any commoner to defy a nobles (even of the lay kind) order can mean a deathsentence which goes so far that after a bunch of farmers try to break into (magic protections make it so they can't even dent the door) a monastary build by an archnoble in the name of the local lord is deemed treachery with the normal punishment sentence for that being the annihilation of their whole town.
As a German I can tell you, in Frieren all the Names are very fitting to the characters.
Frieren=freezing
Fern=far away
Stark=strong
Himmel=Sky
All of them describes the character very good
I'd rather translate Himmel with heaven, seems more fitting. (German uses Himmel for both sky and heaven)
Heiter = Jolly
Eisen = Iron
Kanne = Pitcher or (Tea/Cofee) pot
Lawine = Avalanche
Deneken = (to) Think (verb)
Laufen = (to) Run (Verb)
Richter = Judge (noun)
Übel = Bad/Foul/Nauseous (but not Evil, as that Böse the name of the Dragon that the Heroe's Party fought, as we learn in the last episode)
Land = Land (noun)
Wirble = Whilr (noun)
Ehre = Honor (noun)
Scharf = Sharp (noun)
Methode = Method
Ton = Tone
Länge = Lenght
Edel = Noble
Blei = Lead (noun; metal)
Dünste = Vapor
Proctors:
Genau = Exact/Exactly (used as response the same way Exactly is used in English)
Sesne = Scyth
Brug = Castle/Town
Serie = Series
Others
Qual = Suffering
Lügner = Lier
Linie = Line
Dhrat = wire (though not the kind Dhart used).
Voll = Full
Location:
Äußerst = Exterme/Outside (probably refers to it being the most northern city before the Northern Territories)
Ende = The End.
Was about to say, heaven as translation makes more sense because he's dead 😂😂😂 both are right if course
@@MrDiarukiamore fitting for "heaven" would be "Himmelreich"
@@Mariposa-trc I can't agree. In casual conversation, I've never heard anyone say "Himmelreich". To translate it back to English, it would be "Heavenly Realm" and probably used similarly in both languages. "Und siehe, Jesus trat ins Himmelreich ein" ("and lo, Jesus entered the Heavenly Realms") is fitting for a sermon, but "Fido ist jetzt im Himmelreich" ("Spot has gone to the Heavenly Realm") sounds very strange.
To add some levity: don't get your consonants mixed up. "Pimmel" is something very different 😆
Fun fact, the light novel source material fror Apothecary Diaries was meant for the female demographic. The manga is seinen because of the manga publisher. And the anime seems to be a mix of the two and have cross demographics
Almost as if gender demographics don't matter and don't do anything to honestly define a show. hmmmmmmm
If I didn't know better, I would've mistaken it to be josei. The subject matters they deal with are too dark to be shoujo (even if the anime art style seems to be that), and there's much which a young woman might be able to relate/understand better.
I'm still glad that it being marketed/published as seinen would help expand young male's understanding of a woman's world and their vulnerabilities.
And thats precisely why manga by demographic is an OUTDATED way of thinking that doesnt make sense anymore
@marti9734 I agree in theory. But in practice, if there were not separate demos, then what is basically shonen/seinen will always get made, because it makes more money. Women will watch Shonen, but men don't watch shoujosei as much. Left to its own devices, I think most anime would only cater to men. So that's why I think carving out a space for shoujosei is important.
literally started crying during the maomao section omg the way her curiosity pushes through her fear and circumstances is one of the most inspiring things i've ever absorbed through media i adore her and the entire show so so so so so much im so excited for another season
I guess if you has to make "cute girls do x" anime, someone would come up with "cute girl but well written".
There is a manga that does both called gakkou gurashi
When I read "cute girls but well written" I think "A Place Further than the Universe". Yes, technically it is "cute girls go to Antarctica", but it is so well written. They are so well written.
Fall season 2023, when both these shows aired, might have been the Best Anime Season ever.
Frieren Fridays followed by MaoMao Saturdays was fuckin' magic.
(this comes from an old gen X:er btw)
And Dungeon Meshi too. This year was magical for me in amime
Around 7:55 - I agree, female characters don't have to shed their femininity for character development or something. Not that it's bad, they just don't have to; that should not be the only way to do so.
Around 17:05 - Yeah, people need to get over the fact that just because it's demographics says it's for group x of people, doesn't mean it's only for group x people.
It is indeed refreshing to have female leads for a change. And that's coming from someone who is looking mostly for a good time, and often dismisses fictional characters as being... well, fictional.
The funny part is based purely off people I've talked to and personal experience, most of the people saying x is only for x group are young adults (18+) that still watch mainly Shounen, which by their logic doesn't make sense, but again I'm sure that's not everyone that makes that point
No it's valid, you have to admit the truth, simple. Whether you watch or not is your choice after knowing the reality.
It's like you don't go to ice cream shop asking for tacos.
@@XFR18 No, it's not and the comparison doesn't even make sense, because it's totally different thing lol
@@markozhivkovich Yes, it is.
@@mray4784 No, it isn't.
If you liked Frieren and Mao Mao as complex female characters, I'd recommend you to read Yona of the Dawn. I swear Yona has one of the best female character development I've ever seen in all of the manga I have read. It's a slippery start, but the political intrigue, found family & character dynamics are all so worth it!
Oh my gosh yes! Finally someone who has seen Yona of the Dawn. Probably one of my favorite mangas of all time, I wish they continued the anime.
It’s nice to see not just female characters but ADULT female characters getting the lime light.
Hate to dissapoint you, but Maomao is canonicalĺy 17 and thus not an adult. Frieren is though :)
@@leikamikaru6155 well... It's implied, that Frieren isn't adult by elven standard. By human, yes, but she's a mix of an old granny and a pre-puberty child
What I love so much about apothecary diaries is seeing Chinese rep hit the main stream , often times in anime only modern China is repped maybe the occasional Qipao. But I’m just so happy to see the apothecary diaries not only in a all Chinese setting but also representing Hanfu so beautifully 🥹
I think Japan does better at representing ancient Chinese culture than what Chinese media has right now due to the CCP. CCP destroys culture.
If you are interested in worldbuilding inspired by Chinese culture in anime, I strongly recommend Colourcloud Palace (The Story of Saiunkoku). It's old, and the animation is not as beautiful as AD, but has similar vibe and the story is good.
Stems from real life racial tension between the Chinese and Japanese. A story heavily featuring Chinese characters is far less likely to avoid getting canned by the publisher.
I think the crazy part for me is that I grew up with Chinese Period Dramas. My favorite ones were always the ones where the protagonist has to win the day through clever schemes and understanding of people, as well as what science was available to the scholars of the time.
The Apothecary Diaries were like a Chinese Period Drama transplanted directly into anime and I just felt so connected to it. Palace Intrigue is just what I grew up on and I love it dearly. Most protagonists of those period dramas are usually disadvantaged in some way, typically in the fact that they're commoner servants who require a powerful patron to back them. Maomao is double disadvantaged in this society because she's both a commoner and a woman. She's not even up to that society's standard of beauty either (even though she's plenty beautiful to us as the audience even when she's not dolled up, freckles and all). And yet, she's possessed of the quality that makes these protagonists so endearing to us: a good heart.
That's why all the scheming and lying and deception doesn't hurt us as the audience. She's doing it while trying to avoid hurting anyone (at least anyone who doesn't deserve it) and she's doing it having thought things through. Most of her actions are deliberate and careful because she knows full well the consequences. It's also fascinating from a storytelling perspective because she's clearly a powerless pawn in this society but her intelligence and knowledge definitely gives her a soft power and influence.
....Aaanyway. I love this story. It just fits my tastes to a T.
@@joelsasmad普通に昔から中華風のアニメは沢山あったよ
仲が悪くなったのは最近のことで昔はそうでもなかった
frieren's best writing point was the part when she was asked what was her favourite spell. Spoilers Below:
She replied it was creating a field of regular flowers. Yes this Demon Lord slaying elite elf with so much collected spells of grandiur and destruction, with so many years of experience, felt home to this dainty, disney princess-like spell. Her test taker was disappointed in such lowly answer since its a silly beginner spell, but frieren felt no shame.
It hit home to me because its like when middle school teachers tell kids to draw or write essay on what they wanna be in the future, and it always ended as an power-scaling fest on who can come up with a grander idea. I wrote programmer bc I wanted to join a game company whose games inspired me to work harder irl. Teacher said it was cutely inspiring but since i was a top grader and supposed role model for junior classes, i should "dream bigger". The notion that one must think grand to start their journey on is not really effective. For some, setting small milestones or having simple inspirations without getting looked down on are enough to bring the best out of themselves.
That's not the only reason it was good writing. It was also her mentor's favorite, and one she learned from her, as well as being indirectly responsible for the party of heroes specifically seeking her out, and as a result, saving the world from the demon lord. It's not the spell that's important, it's the connections to others that it represents for Frieren. That's what fundamentally separates her from Serie. Frieren has learned to value other people and her connections with them.
@@itsaUSBline .
.
.
It goes deeper than that. Serie and Frieren are different in their preferences and action. Serie fundamentally dislikes Frieren outwardly. She even dislikes Flamme a great deal. Frieren clearly dislikes Serie.
And yet, Serie's room is literally a garden of flowers. She re-entered the mortal world and reintegrated herself with mortal magical society. She didn't have to do any of that. She could have stayed a recluse just like Frieren did for 500 years. What does it matter to an immortal elf?
The fundamental difference between Frieren and Serie is that Serie didn't have a Himmel or a 10-year adventure to save the world. And yet, Serie is actually trying to reach out for connection. She's clumsy in that aspect because her only point of reference is Flamme. They fundamentally dislike each other because they're so similar to each other, the only difference between them are slightly different choices they've made and the slightly different connections they have.
We see in some later chapters some light hints that Serie really could have had her own Himmel if she only would let them into her heart. Serie has some arbitrary high requirements in a person as well as some issues with an over-inflated ego. Even Himmel had a hard time getting through to Frieren, who didn't have an ego problem. Even then, Serie clearly has some meaningful connections, even if she continually keeps them at arm's length.
What's clear to me is that Serie loved Flamme a lot. To the point that Serie's room is a garden of flowers, even if she herself doesn't really care for flowers. Flamme's mortal death clearly hurt her a lot. She's come out of seclusion to look for another one who could be like Flamme "but better". But she's clumsy in that regard and lacks sufficient humility to realize that she's already surrounded by meaningful connections. It's also possible that Serie is afraid of feeling that grief of loss again, which is why her standards are so high.
Of course, all of this is just extrapolated from the little bits of dialogue and visuals I can see. I have no qualms at being wrong but it all seems to track to me and it's fun to be able to just extrapolate these depths from a well written (and well drawn) story.
The field of flowers is more important than one might think. If Frieren hadn't impressed child-Himmel with the spell, he wouldn't have sought her out to go kill the Demon Lord. Serie is dismissive of the spell when talking to frieren but has filled the room they're talking in with flowers using that self-same spell.
Wow…. Being a programmer sounds tough especially with all the competition for cs jobs now.
Anyway I really like all the deep dives into frieren and serie!
I love apothecary diary so much, dispite the fact tons of people talk about it already i feel like its underated. Ive watched a couple episodes of frienen so i need to get cuaght up.
If you like Apothecary Diary you'll love Frieren.
I love both Apothecary Diary and Frieren. And if I'm being honest Frieren is one of my all time favorite fantasies. It's such breath of fresh air.
I slept at 6 AM after binge watching Frieren. It is 2 PM right now it will be hard to sleep again at 10 PM
Maomao is a true girls’s girl and I love that! I feel like she could’ve easily been written like a “not like other girls” and look down on the other serving girls, but she doesn’t!
love the part when she explains her freckles to the rest of the girl, and Jinshi's reaction when he sees her for the first time
@@howlingbreeze7078 genuinely that scene made me feel understood. Like sometimes it’s just safer to be unattractive, and I think about it a lot, and it used to drive my choices in clothing lmao
Frieren despised the use of Himmel from her memory that she used that much mana blasting it away.
Clearly she valued her connection to Himmel, and would not let anyone get away with tainting her memory of him (another time was when old man questioned her memory of Himmel, or her cold shift in tone with Wirbel...)
Most people noticed that it was a huge blast but dont give it a second thought, at least until they watch it a second time
"yea thats what he would have said. (You memory stealing monster, how dare you!!! Zoltraak!)"
😂😂
Also when Aura mentioned Himmel already being gone, Frieren looked like legitimately ticked off.
loved that scene, been awhile since i've gone back and watched it but think first thing Himmel said to her was kill me or something like that, thought it was sweet becasue she was a little confused that it was him instead of it being her master Flamme again, shows how much she's grown, other one was the flower episode when she went on a quest to find that particular flower becasue it was Himmel's favorite and he promised to show it to her
to me it's not that she despised the monster for imitating himmel and that's the reason for the large blast but more so to take out the monster like what himmel would want
she cleared the mist totally from the forest, which helped Fern to refocus and gain resolve to do the same to Heiter's illusion.
it was not an emotional outburst from frieren, Rather a tactical one where she hit 2 birds with a single stone. she Cleared the mist and also gave just enough push to Fern as a good tutor so she could see clearly (literally and figuratively) and do what she had to do. a learning lesson
These two are such a breath of fresh air it gives me hope that we'll see more anime soon where girls and women are fully fleshed out and compelling characters that aren't there to be sexualized.
And they don’t sneer at the women who are sexualized.
MAOMAO IS THE GOAT I LOVE FRIEREN TOO
Frieren is souch better than MaoMao
@@Gecko3456 i think frieren is the better anime but i like maomao as a character a bit better than frieren
Uh, why not BOTH?
Both? Both. Both is good
I loved them, finally two anime that treat girls like people and are not used for stupid reasons
Their so many anime that didn’t use female characters for dumb reasons
@@devilslayer3548 Erza I love her but the fan service is so disrespectful to her like a ton and so is Lucy and Mira Jane
@@inesatt1313than it's simply not for you
@@inesatt1313 you know there's a lot more anime out there than Fairy Tail right
@@inesatt1313 Characters that you have listed are from a shounen (for young male) series, that's the reason. To get more well written female (or characters in general), read/watch more seinen (for adult male) or josei (for adult female). Yes, Frieren and Apotechary are seinen.
Maomao is one of the greatest female protagonists I've ever seen ❤❤❤❤
Frieren’s author read their own one-shot and realized they cooked too much💀
Frieren became one of my top 3 anime within such a short amount of time. I’m really looking forward to the 2nd season, the content is going to be really juicy!
I reccomend You atelier of the witchat
Also dungeon messhi
Apothecary Diaries was a series, that I did not really expect to like. The PV of the anime just looked good, but I wasn't conviced, because there was a lack of interessting things the story might have to tell. But I gave it a shot, liked the main character and said it was alright, until the "slap episode" dropped and I realized for the first time how much invested I actually was in the story and characters.
Something that also came to mind when watching you talk about Frieren and Maomao was something The Closer Look mentioned once: What makes a great main character. He had this idea of a triangular "power scale" of capabilities a character can have, and which of those are their strong suit: Competence, Activity and Charisma. A character should never have all of those to a large extend, because they'd turn out to be some kind of mary sue character where everything revolves around them. To be fair, story mostly revolve around the main character, but I think you get the gist of what I mean by that...
Anyway, funnily enough I think that Maomao and Frieren actually are the same "kind of character" in this regard, because both of them are highly competent, mildly active and not really charismatic. This is great, because we can most definitly see where the character is lacking and needs external characters to motivate them or get them in the right spot in the story. For example is Jingshi the driving factor that is forcing Maomao to action and easily connects her to other people, because he is very charismatic and knows a lot of people. The flow is very natural in my opinion and we can really feel Maomaos desire to not be involved, even though the series would be deadbeat boring if she really did keep her low profile. But this is also something she kind of fails at, because her thirst for knowledge does give her some form of activity, which in turn is enough to get the ball rolling for the story.
Frieren is very similar, where her activity drive might seem lower than Maomaos, but she is determined to reach a certain destination and she is also very responsive to happenstances, like for example when they reach the city where Lügner and his companions reside at that moment. Fern is here the great character due to her time limitation, which automatically pushes Frieren forward to move along.
What I wanted to say is that I really like how those series put the female character in competent roles, that pave the way of the series. Female characters are often more likely to fill in some kind of passive role, where they are often the supporting character that pushes the male lead forward. To switch things up doesn't really change much about the series as a whole - the dynamics are only changed up a little bit, but a lot of people pay attention to this, because a female lead of that kind is rare. The leads also do not feel like they are just "male protagonists in female skin", but both of them radiate their own kind of femininity along the way. I like both series and I like the characters.
Oh and in regards to fanservice in Frieren. Before Übel made her appearence the artists really went all out on Fern. Fern. Have you seen her outfits? In other series she would be the most likely candidate to be ignored for such artistery, but people want to create artworks of the series, they want to feature Fern and they really love the series. This also kind of shows how much of an impact this series and characters has. Great stuff.
and the artwork was beyond beautiful in both but if i was to choose it would be Apothecary Diaries, just the background scenes of flowers and just random things was not something that was supposed to be that good and Frieren's battle scenes OMFG straight out of a Shonen
I watched both and absolutely love them! Quickly became two of my absolute favorite anime of all time, especially for the amazing female protagonists!
Video suggestion: Himmel being the greenest flag ever!
both of them were super sweet without getting super Shojo, both of them had romances in them Frieren/Himmel, Fern/ Stark, mamou/ jinshi, but the romance was not the main focus of the story and it developed naturally and less notice me Senpai.
Hey! We have the same first name! Also I completly agree. Its the first time I really liked an anime with a main character who ACTUALLY is a character that goes through growth and has depth.
@@Tracey_tron Tracys unite! 🤣 But yea absolutely, the character development is peak!
@@howlingbreeze7078 Reminder that shojo is a demographic not a genre, there are lots of shojos without any romance or with romance not being the main plot
I have seen Frieren and IMMEDIATELY went on and watched The apothecary diaries because I LOVED Frieren and I saw the two shows associated together. And I absolutely loved both shows and cannot wait for the second season 😭👌💕
the Himmel ghost/monster scene does just as much to characterize Himmel as it does Frieren. The "ghost of Himmel" simply says "do it." Frieren cannot imagine Himmel lying to her or telling her to do anything that isn't the right thing.
Her image of Himmel cannot save the monster, because there is no conceivable way Freiren's Himmel would be against dying to kill a single monster.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE FRIEREN. IN MY TOP 5 ANIME AND IT IS JUST THE BEST ONE I HAVE WATCHED IN A WHILE. IT WAS AMAZING FROM THE START TO THE END. IT MADE ME SHED TEARS MANY TIMES. IT FELT REAL. THE CHARACTERS FELT REAL. IT FELT LIKE I WAS LISTENING TO ALL OF THEM. IT FELT LIME I WAS A PART OF THEIR LIFE AND THAT THEY WERE A PART OF MY LIFE. AMAZING ANIME. 10/10
agreed, think what i loved most about it was probably that the story started where most shows end, defeating the demon lord
Really recommend listening to Winter’s Frieren playlists on yt, It’s so good
I was worried about the tittle because of the "vs" but glad I watched anyway because your video is more about comparison than competition. Both main characters are amazing without threatening the other. 👍💗
These were two of my top shows of the last SEVERAL years. It's really nice to see shows with really awesome female characters that are cool and awesome while also still being cute and femenine at the same time. It's almost as if they were written to be real fully fleshed out characters and not just to fill the female character quota as an afterthought. I'm really excited to see a video from you on Coco when Witch Hat drops.
I adore characters who're just autistic (struggling with human connections/socializing, difficulty picking up social cues, connecting with others through their personal hyperfixations, resting bitch face, obsession w/ the hyper fixation, being blunt or struggling w/ communication in different ways) like??? chefs kiss
I also love how they're genuinely weirdos cause theres like a thing where there'll be a show about a "weird" girl but the weird parts basically like, ya girl wears glasses but she'd be a lil more attractive without them????
Lmao you literally just explained me. 😭I ADORE characters like that as well since I relate to them so much. It's nice seeing those character's be depicted in a good light since in real life, people like that are seen as 'weird'.
I've fallen in love with apothecary diaries and now reading the light novels and yeah l watch the anime on repeat and it makes my day
By the way, 'The Apothecary Diaries' as a story *is* Shoujo. It may officially have the genre of 'Seinen' as a manga, because it was published in a Seinen magazine - genre and demographic in the Japanese Manga publishing industry are dependant on each other - but the Light Novel that the Manga is an adaptation of for example is Shoujo. And that is evident in that the story in its essence as a genre is very clearly Shoujo/Joesi, therefore, in my opinion, the Anime is also Shoujo. The protagonist, the visuals, the story, the way the male love interest is written - yes Maomao technically doesn't like him that way, but it still counts - the attention and care to the female characters' personality and women's struggles in general, even the opening, are all very clearly reminiscent and typical of Shoujo/Josei Anime.
I do think that it does try to appeal a bit to a male audience, as evidenced by some fan service by the concubines and the courtesans, but that is just because it's a marketing strategy. So similarly to, for example, how 'Jujutsu Kaisen' tries to appeal a bit to a female demographic as well, so as to have as big of an audience as they can, 'The Apothecary Diaries' also does the same thing. Yet, 'Jujutsu Kaisen' as a story is still considered Shounen and on one brings that into question, because it is very clearly Shounen.
I think the reason for this is because we live in a patriarchal society, in which stories written by and/or for women, especially young women and girls, are often undervalued and seen as inferior, which strongly deters not only a male audience, but even the general public. This may indeed be why the manga was released in a Seinen magazine instead and why there is much more resistance to it being considered Shoujo, as many people, i.e. mostly men, do not like the notion of liking anything that is 'girly', because it emasculates them.
Because of this I personally would rather it not be referred to as Seinen, as it in a way takes away something that is supposed to be for girls and women, if that makes any sense, as if the general public can't like anything that is written for girls, because it's uncultured and inferior.
What does Shojo mean ?
@@Taiga-16 quick rundown:
Shonen=young boy
Shoujo=young girl
Seinen=adult men
Josie=adult women
Whenever people use these terms in relation to anime,manga,etc. it is to describe who the target demographic is
@@abdellnunez1403 Yeah, but there are certain tropes, general story lines and stylistic criteria that we do associate with those genres and I just don't think this story really matches its supposed genre at all. After all, Shounen and Shoujo aren't just referred to as 'the target demographic', but also are their own genre. I don't know, it's a bit confusing.
Seinen, shoujo and so on are not genres, they just show towards what demographic the show is targeted at. I totally see the shoujo and it has many it‘s tropes and I thought of this show as a mystery and slow-burn-romance anime and was surprised to see that romance is not a listed genre (most times) when you can easily spot the shoujo romance tropes. And overall it’s probably less shoujo but more Josei considering the maturity.
it's josei if anything definitely not shoujo
Apothecary Diaries is a light novel series. It got itself a manga adaptation, but the source material are the light novels. The demographic should be determined by the original source material. And the visual and story-oriented "language" (think "movie language") it uses is that of josei manga. The romantic aggressor is the man (for seinen/shonen romance, the aggressor is nearly always the woman. For shojo/josei, the romantic aggressor is nearly always the man). Also the main female character is ostensibly ordinary looking while the main male character is gorgeous. While there are shojo authors, like Yumi Tamura, who present complex characters in shojo series, generally the more complex characters, like Maomao, are found in josei manga.
That isn't to say that guys can't like Apothecary Diaries. I'm a straight guy, and I love the series. Any guy who lets the original demographic stand in the way is missing out on half the great manga in the world.
Frieren, on the other hand, is straight-up shonen. It's published in Shonen Sunday, and you can't get any more shonen than that without switching publishers.
I also fully agree that most shonen action series tend to struggle with female characters (or I should say, they don't bother struggling enough to make good female characters).
Since you like Apothecary Diaries, could I suggest you try Villainess Level 99. Although it's in the isekai genre in the Villainess subgenre, like Maomao, Yumiella is quirky and introspective, although her passions and quirks are completely different from Maomao's. She goes into the typical "academy" anime with a fun and consistent internal monologue. (If you try it, know that the first half of episode 1 does NOT represent the rest of the series. The series actually begins after the mid-point commercial break of episode 1. Also know that it didn't get Frieren's or Maomao's budget. The CGI sucks, and the 2D animation, while okay, won't blow your socks off. It's the writing and voice acting that's the hook.)
I love Apothecary Diaries so much!!!!
Hiii I love this video but I’ve only seen Frieren so far so I’ll be back to watch the Mao Mao section after I’ve seen AD. BUT I wanted to talk about how perfectly you put into words why I like Frieren and Fern.
I also love the story because for a show where a character is learning about the importance of cherishing time, we get a rather well paced but arguably purposefully slow paced show. We wouldn’t care about Frieren’s struggle if we didn’t get to see the mundane parts of her every day. We wouldn’t care if we didn’t get to see the lives of the people in passing villages she touches just by doing kind things for them, big or small. And Fern is such a good anchor to Frieren in this regard.
There are plenty of moments where Frieren wants to stay at a village for way too long and we get comedic moments of Fern having to say “Hey, I’ll have significantly aged by that point. Get up, we’re leaving in two days at most.” but also Frieren wanting to leave villages that she assumes will survive in her wake and not realizing the importance in needing to act in the moment to secure their safety or comfort. That’s also where Fern comes in and says “Frieren. We’re these people’s only hope, we don’t know when someone else with our capabilities might even come by. They need us to advocate and fight for them because we have been lucky to be given the power we have”. Of course Fern isn’t this blunt but it’s all subtext. It’s an interesting and lowkey way of showing that Frieren (a revered hero) is a selfish character at times, who often values her own comfort and goals over others all because she doesn’t have this great concept of time.
Idk I’m kinda yapping at this point but *I just think it’s neat*
One cool way Frieren has subverted shonen tropes - which has the tired tendency of "going all out" and always going up power levels - she and Fern both suppress their mana and use the spells needed to get the job done. They're clever about it, their life isn't driven by defeating others and one-upping, but using practicality. I love that!
Yeah Imma need that apothecary diaries video thanks.
agreed
frierens one of my new favorite shows connected with her as a character super strongly, never seen another show with an aroace character and it meant a lot to me
If you like these two I'd also recommend the "Ascendance of a Bookworm" anime and light novels (fully published official english translation). It has a driven female protagonist obsessed with their goal of reading books, and definitely gives off quirky character vibes. It also has a unique fantasy world.
Frieren is such a comfort anime.I hope we will see more of Frieren.🤞
These 2 single handedly got me back into anime I love them so much & the stories as well
An underrated aspect of Apothecary Diaries for me is Jinshi. Having read ahead in the manga I can definatively say you girlies are IN FOR IT in season 2.
I agree, Maomao and Jinshi are so fun to watch...
Just finished The Apothecary Diaries yesterday and MaoMao has become one of my all time favorite characters! Frieren is also up there as well. I love both of these shows so much.
i love apothecary diaries 😍 i would love for you to talk more about how it’s a seinen manga! i definitely assumed it was shojou, and i feel like im probably not the only one! loved this video 😍
The original source is a web novel/light novel written by a female author targeted at women.
All this shojo/seinen etc is decided by what magazine publishes the manga. The manga adaptation got published through a seinen magazine, therefore the label "seinen".
I think it would have been better if it was officially published as a shojo/josei also for the manga because people think the story is targeted at men with the seinen label when that is not the case.
The story is targeted at women but that does not mean that anyone else can not enjoy it
I've only watched videos on Apothecary Diaries made by guys because thats what was in my recommended videos, and it's great that the series is recognized and loved by everyone, but I also appreciate and enjoy a woman's perspective and commentary on it and would love more of it!
YES. PLEASE DO A FULL VIDEO ON APOTHECARY DIARIES. I LOVE THE APOTHECARY DIARIES.
Honestly going just by the name and artstyle, i thought apothecary diaries would be some shoujo romance or something, but you've sold it so well that im gonna go watch it as soon as i can
Highly recommend it btw, really fun in many aspects. Maomao really is the goat. But i was right, Jinshi really *really* wants to be a shoujo love interest lmao
Big ascendant of a bookworm vibes too, but more realistic (and poisonous)
@@sutirk Although the world of Apothecary Diaries is more grounded, I feel Bookworm is more realistic. The reason is the events in Bookworm are more realistic whereas Apothecary Diaries keeps stacking up mysteries like a detective TV show.
Some bits on both stories too that stood out to me is they focus on elements of the characters being women wihtout discarding or calling them bad. To me Frieren's relationship with Fern, and to an extent the flashback bits of Serie and Flamme, had a big mother-daughter vibe. And it's kind of weird to think how few anime have protagonists who have a mother role, when I can dig up quite a few that have fathers as the main character.
Apothacary Diaries I think stood out a lot for often highlighting how kind of rough it is for a woman in her environment, and pointing out things at times that she has to be constantly on guard for that the men around her just don't even consider. Again, kind of just an intersting story in showing perspectives and plot elements that I think often get overlooked in historical or fantasy anime. And your summary of Maomao is pretty good. Sh'es more just kind of a weirdo than a kuudere, and I like how she's also not omni-competent, but having holes in how she acts that create fun problems later.
So yeah, good shows for sure. Favorite in a while. Would watch more your takes on them :D
I just love when Maomao goes into her chibi cat form its just so adorable
Moribito is also another great example of a well written female protagonist. Balsa is such an underrated character.
👍
MaoMao
Frieren
Violet Evergarden
This is how you write a deep character, a Person
Has anyone here watched "Talentless Nana"?
Can highly recommend, has a female lead who def kicks ass while being very girly. Also internal ethical struggle.
Actually now that i think i've been almost exclusively watching female lead animes with well written protags.
people talk about female characters "written by a woman" or "written by a man" but it's more about whether the female characters are portrayed as (and limited to) archetypes or as three-dimensional characters.
Just found this video thanks to the algorithm god and I had a blast. You being a casual vibe to just talking anime and your chosen topic and I loved it. Subscribed
Great video! Just wanted to point out 1 thing:
11:30 -> You said Frieren wipes Himmel without hesitation, when this isn't true. Frieren gets told by Himmel to shoot. Because the Himmel she knows is so sincere and reliable that he would never, not even in a hallucination, try to deceive her.
I Love Maomao so much ... as a light novel reader she really grew a lot while still not changing her dramatically... I like frieren too
Another thing that makes me like Maomao character is because of Jinshi, the male lead. Him and Maomao has a great chemistry throughout the story. Even though Jinshi has reputation in the palace, he treat Maomao like a human and found interest in her, while Maomao know her place and have to stay in act to prevent conflict.
I had a fun experience with these two shows. I was visiting Japan and both frieren and apothecary diaries were on Japanese netflix so I ended up watching both of these banger shows back to back during all of my down time on my trip (so worth it)
I have read The Apothecary Diaries a bajillion times since I first found it in 2018. I love Maomao so much. She’s the type of person I wish I could be. Genuinely my favorite manga.
I love the way you talk about this! You seem so invested and passionate about these animes and I love it 🎉🎉❤
Our prayers have been heard. Capable, deep female leads whose shows got hits.
Frieren really gives a new hope that female characters are not only eye candies in animes
Did you seriously just call Frieren gen z's FMA? Hu, that makes perfect sense. That makes a whole lot of sense. Thank you I needed that. It really helped me with something. Sometimes you've been around the block so long and have collected so many anime that are special to you, you can forget that this is somebodies first special anime. I remember when the '03 series was airing on Toonami and how special that was for a young me. Thank you
its been 20 years since it aired and we still have not gotten over Nina and Alexander, just goes to show you how poignant a series can be
@@howlingbreeze7078 No, we have not. Night of the Chimera's Cry is forever etched into my psyche. That and the death of Hughs
Please talk more about The Apothecary Diaries
i watched this immediately before hanging out with my friend who happens to ADORE poisons and Chinese history, I recommended we watch apothecary diaries and we both instantly become obsessed, thank you so much for this gift of a show recommendation
Yes, please do a deeper dive into Apothecary Diaries! I loved the Frieren analysis in this video, but the AD analysis was too short and left me not understanding what you loved about it. Perhaps it was just too vague and didn't go into the psychology of the character as much as your analysis of the characters in Frieren. I think that your careful dissection of Apothecary Diaries' characters, writing, and background would be such a treat!
The sunset episode was it for me 😭 I started kicking and screaming it was so touching I did not even see it coming! Love this anime so much.
I haven't seen Frieren yet, but Apothecary Diaries has become one if not my favorite series ever (both anime and light novel series). Maomao is, not to sound like I'm belittling, a very ordinary person who found her niche in life and just wants to do what she loves. Her personality doesn't scream "look at me I'm important" even though she's the main character. She just wants to live her life being an Apothecary and helping those within her reach and those who reach out to her. I also love how the romance is a slow burn and not the story's main focus, but that's more a personal thing for me.
the parts i love about the scene where frieren sees himmel is that A) she's surprised its himmel and not her mentor meaning that shes learning to care about her time with him and the others more and more and B) that himmel actually tells frieren to kill him because at her core, frieren knows that himmel would never stop her or hurt her and he would/will always support her efforts. the monster only shows a reflection of what the person views their most precious person as and what they desire the most from their person, so the depth in fern just yearning for more time and comfort vs frieren understanding that himmel would want her to continue her journey is just chef's kiss
As a Apothecary Diaries novel reader, ss2 will be fire, quite figuratively and literally, don't miss it, everyone will be on the edge of their seats
Love how these shows came out together, both wonderful and very different.
Ok you convinced me to Apothecary Diaries, Thank you
Not enough people are talking about the apothecary diaries!! Would love to see a full video on just that!!
17:40 lmao I watched Apothecary diaries while it was still airing, I have not seen Frieren at all though.
Both are so well written
Wow, the way you were describing the Apothecary Dairies, I 100% thought it was a josei! I'd be interested in seeing you review Kill La Kill, Claymore, and the Slayers series on the topic of shounen/seinen with female protagonists. Maybe Ghost in the Shell as well!
Awesome video, & I love the elf style! 😊❤️🔥
Can't wait till I have the time to watch these!
You convinced me to give Apothecary diaries a try! Frieren I have dropped two times but maybe I will watch it someday
I totally agree with there often being one type of strong female character in media when there is also so much beauty and strength in femininity. I’d love to hear you talk more about powerful femininity in manga portrayed in these different ways!
apothecary diaries is a light novel not a manga
True, but There's a manga version/adaptation of that novel (original source material) & the said manga is what the anime is adapted from.
@@twety17No the Anime source is the Novel not the Manga
@@LamperougeCCboth are the source, actually. The art style of the anime is way closer to the manga than the light novel, but the story follows both the light novel and the manga (since that also follows the ln), tho season 2 might pass the nekokurage manga depending on its length. There‘s a second manga too, but it isn‘t licensed in English
@@twety17 ,ope the anime came from the manga
These two shows are amazing and I love them so much
Let’s gooooo!!! A new video!🎉❤❤
Came here cuz of Friren -- now must watch the Diaries. Thank you for the video!
I don't think many men choose to not watch a show based on the gender of the protagonist. Hell, I got so into Bocchi the Rock that everything else pales in comparison.
But many men still hesitant or avoid consuming female oriented demographic compared to how there's many women that willing to consume male oriented demographic I mean look at jjk or mha fangirls. Yuru Camp or Bocchi The Rock are appealing despite the female cast cuz the target audience is male, so it's easier for straight men to enjoy them.
@@yunfeikwon I'm curious, what makes Bocchi the Rock specifically targeted at a male demographic? There's zero fan service, zero action... why do you say it's targeted at men?
@@ReklawLah because Bocchi The Rock published in seinen manga magazine, you can googled it yourself. And this must be my personal take so it's not entirely represent female oriented demographic, but Bocchi lacked female fanservice and doesn't have shoujo ai or GL tagged as genre.
And as I already watch/read many shoujo/josei mangas, Bocchi doesn't have the aesthetic or characteristics that shoujo/josei specialized in.
If you think large to all female cast or female protagonist equal guaranteed from female oriented demographic... I'm sorry but I must inform you that you have been wrong. There's many shoujo/josei demographic or I will say joseimuke in Japanese have many male protagonist or large male cast to even all male cast. Banana Fish, Gakuen Babysitter, Natsume and The Book of Friend, Baby and Me, etc etc. are prime example of it.
Even dating sim for women like otome game or idol raising game like Idolish7 is existed and marketed for female audience, right? That's why the reverse also applies to male targeted entertainment like shonen, seinen or danseimuke (media marketed to male). Bocchi, Yuru Camp, Umaru-chan all fall into danseimuke category or specifically seinen manga despite having female protagonist.
Plus demographic doesn't equal genre. As not all seinen/shonen are action and adventure, it's mean that there's shoujo/josei that has action, adventure. Just fyi shoujo manga even is the one that introduced or invented isekai concept in manga community back then in early 90s. It's TMI ik but Berserk is heavily inspired by all time popular and influential shoujo manga, Roses of Versailles too.
Lacking male fanservice but still able to hook people while having broader range of targeted audience are indeed the strength of seinen demographic. However it also could mean that seinen wouldn't or can't ever replace female targeted media or joseimuke in Japanese.
@@ReklawLah K-On, Bocchi the Rock, and Yuru Camp are "cute girls doing cute things" animes, and this type of genre has been popular with both men and women for a long time.
Frieren is fantasy/shounen/action anime with a female protagonists, which is very rare. Most shows that have female protagonists are either shoujo or slice of life. It's very rare to have female protagonist in an action/shounen anime (the same genre as One Piece, Bleach, Naruto, MHA, JJK,etc.), so Frieren is extra special.
The Apothecary Diaries is also a shoujo/seinen, but it somehow becomes so popular (as a novel, manga, and then anime) that it also attracts male audience. But this show is definitely not an action/shounen genre, so it having a female protagonist is not as a big deal as Frieren.
I loved the apothecary diaries. Am thrilled for the next season :) and just an hour ago I started watching Frieren. We'll see how I'll like that one :D
I love the apothecary diaries, ive become obsessed with it to the point of hilarity. Just one thing, that, since you haven't read the manga you dont know, but it actually doesnt take place in china, its a made up country whose people and customs do look chinese, but even the map of the country is different, but thats a story for the second season :D
I loved both of these shows so much, I immediately recommended them to anyone who’d listen and everyone that gave them a shot loved them. Imo nothing hits harder than a well written female protagonist.
I must thank you. It may be 4am, and i may have finished this video at like 4pm. And i loved the apothecary's diary
One note I'd like to make on Frieren blowing away Himmel's phantom--I read the fact that she used enough power to carve her way through a mountain as proof that while she doesn't fully "get" the human emotions, she's still feeling them. She didn't need to use that much power.
She's not unaffected, she just showed it differently. And the story did a good job of "showing" it instead of "telling" it.
Man... You are so young. Have you ever heard of the show Slayers and a redhead girl named Lina Inverse? Good shounen anime with female protagonist are not new. They were forgotten.
Dirty Pair, Cat girl Nukunuku, Bugglegum Crisis, Gall Force, Gunsmith Cats, ...
I loved Frieren cause she shkwed it bs when tbeg make children love intrest an fan service cause "she actually adult just short" cause she is short, but she is drawn with proper proportions and adult voice an mannerisms. Frieren is a short adult (to everyone, not elf) and we know it from jump. When flashbacks to her as a kid, that's when she is drawn with childish proportions.
And Apothecary Diaries shows you can have scene FL with her looking drop dead gorgeous BUT not the fanservice shots. And her big sister are more than their bodies they all have talents and humanized as her little family.
I like both series. Thanks for covering this! Someone else mention Yona of the Dawn. The world building is well done in that manga. A shame it never got a season 2. Another anime that flew under the radar in spring and summer this year was Yatagarasu. Think The Apothecary Diaries with a male Mao Mao and a fantasy element. Also done by Studio Pierrot.
1:50 Boys never had problems with female protagonists. For instance, Miyazaki became a legend with lots and lots of them.
Shonen have shallow females? Yes. It has shallow characters almost by design. Boys tend to value things over people, so the main points are the fights, the plot, the conflict, the war, the dragons, the weapons, the magic, the animation, etc.
Give a good story with a male, a female, an alien, anything as protagonist and they will love it. Even if it is more focused on people than things.
I’ve loved the freckles ;)
Apothecary Diaries needs its own video! Also have you heard of the light novel? That's the source :)
I just finished both shows (I let my Crunchroll subscription lapse for a year). Good analysis. I was genuinely sad when both series ended.
Both of these protagonists have a strong relatability that makes them enjoyable. I can only use myself as an example, but
MaoMao is a good example of someone who starts off relatively poor but not completely broke (lower middle class). There's an expectation of success because she doesn't start at the bottom, but with little ability for upward mobility, and because of that her cunning and drive really showcase her.
Frieren is the first show since Violet Evergarden to bring me to tears. As a 40 year old man who beat depression via apathy, the show was a reminder of how easily I can get lost in that apathy, and losing that time with her friends finds a very real correlation in missing my children grow up. Her hunting for spells is my getting lost in work and missing my sons soccer game. I find myself trying to become less like Frieren, and more like Eisen, who, although his life is long, acknowledges his age and restrictions and accounts for that by finding joy wherever he can.
We love wall, written, female characters. Nothing hurts my soul more than a female character that’s just there to be love interest.
2:05 - Those and the feet folks, who have gone gaga for elf tootsies. (°-°)
I'm really glad you like "The Apothecary Diaries." I agree that it was slept on a bit, but I think any other year it would have been at the top of the annual lists. And Aoi Yuki is on fire with her performance as Maomao. Feel free to do that full video on it.
I watched 2min and subscribed! 👏 Your channel seemes to finally voice the complaints i had for years! Thanks yt algorithm!