Thanks! Of course, this is not very simple, but it is not mysterious either. Actually, every part of skiing is very logical and complex at the same time. That's why it is so exciting! :)
This is a superb explanation of inclination and angulation, the combination of the two. I need to listen several times to this information. Thank you so much!
Thank you! You are right; it takes time to listen. Editing content such as this is always a tough decision. If I cut it short, I will be superficial and disrespectful with the content. If you need a written version of the topic, there is also an article: www.ozone-skiing.com/en/post/inclination-vs-angulation
Hasznos anyag, kösz! Nagyon érthetően -és főként helyesen - mondod el a lényeget. Másik hozzászólóval ellentétben: ennyi magyarázat nem sok, hanem ennyi kell, ha valaki meg akarja érteni. A video maga pedig nagyon profi, igényes munka.
You need to angulate if you are not going fast enough. If you only incline you will have not enough weight on the outside ski and that is why you see so many skiers, including the best in the world, angulating and inclining.
Yes, more detail please. With regard to angulation created at the hip sockets, greater angles can be made if the hips are countered slightly toward the outside of the turn. The upper torso need not counter so creating a torsional force to keep pressure on the ski tip edge. Which brings up rotational movements generally of the body needed to create a downward pressure on the ski tip edges in high inclination turns.
Great video! (and great conversation below). Thanks. Put *very* simply, it seems like inclination = the angle between the edge and the center of mass. That's it. Nominally, with no angulation, this angle will be the same as the edge angle. However through angulation you can tweak (generally increase) edge angle. Angulation also sets you up to have more forgiving control over edge angle where banking (inclination == edge angle, no angulation), well you'd better get that angle perfect because you have little ability to tweak in the turn otherwise. So here is a question: Why is banking sometimes superior to angulation in a turn?? My guess is that you can apply more force to the edge, meaning you are going faster and are less likely to slip, without angulation. Also, it isn't clear to me why you say it is impossible to have a turn with no inclination? For a turn, you need pressure and edge angle. That's it, for a carved turn. I can see that for high edge angles this is true, but very strictly, couldn't I maintain my center of mass directly over my skis, but just through angulation have a non-zero edge angle with 0 degrees inclination, which would result in a zero-inclination turn?? With skidding this is even easier and you can make turns of any radius. Ok, now that I think about it, if you really had 0 degrees inclination, you could start the turn but you would immediately fall over to the outside. So yes you need at least enough inclination to avoid falling over.
Your question gave me some ideas. I am working on the next videos, and honestly, I was stuck in deciding how to split the topics and what to include in the videos. Thanks! One topic can be about the difference between inclination and banking. Angulation is for tweaking the turn. No tweaking is needed when the inclination, the postures, and everything else are nearly perfect. So, yes, in some circumstances, a posture without angulation can be more powerful than with angulation. Regarding why we need at least a light inclination, your final conclusion is right: you need some inclination not to fall over the skis. The amount of inclination is related to the forces. Skidding reduces the forces from the turn but doesn't completely eliminate them, so we need less inclination. But there is no turn without lateral forces. In the presence of lateral forces, you need the corresponding inclination to be stable. You're right.
I think this video shows a high quality with impressive analysis of ski technique. I have only two remarks. The explanations are a little unnecessarily complicated and my opinion is that angulation with the bending of the spine to the side of the body is not a mistake, but a useful tool.
Thank you, János; I appreciate it! Regarding the variations of angulation, I could have gone into more detail. :) In my opinion, In terms of angulation, we are not of the same opinion. Your comment points out an interesting topic. It would be useful to find a platform for an open conversation, and it would be instructive to discuss this.
@@OzoneSkiing My basic starting point is that all body movements that can improve a ski turn should be considered useful and that is the opposite of mistakes. Banking, which means not doing any angulation at all, can very well be considered a mistake, because the upper body ends up mostly over the inside ski and it counteracts the healthy optimal distribution of ski pressures between the skis. Angulation by bending the spine to the side has a positive effect on the distribution of ski pressures, it can also give higher edge angles and greater inclination. I can't see any decisive disadvantages. The whole body ends up closer to the center point of the turn, if there are edge angles and inclination during the shaping phase of the turn. In addition, I believe that the reduction in stability via the core musculature is only moderate.
@@inquistive These are two different terms, but they are connected to each other. Inclination means that your body-mass is at the side of your skis and it is necessary in order to make a ski-turn because you must have edged skis in all ski-turns. Edged skis are mandatory in all ski-turns. Banking means that you have no angulation during your ski-turn, so the midline between your legs and the line of your spine is the same line. In angulation it is an angle in this line. This angle can be at the level of your hip joints or in your waist. Angulation can improv your ski-turns but it is not mandatory.
Kedves János! Több hozzászólásban is írod, hogy a derékban történő szögelés, kihajolás nem hiba, hanem "megoldás". Sajnos ezt tévesen tudod, mert a hajolás, a test derékban megtörése az bizony hiba. Egyrész nem a legegészségesebb, másrészt az ilyen hajolásra törekvés akadályozza is a hatékony kanyarodást. A derékban hajló amatőr síelők 99%-a az élezésből veszít a kanyarban, azokkal szemben, akik csípőben oldják meg a "szögelést", pontosabban nem is törekszenek erre, de a jó kanyarképzés miatt valamennyire automatikusan kialakul náluk.
Surely if you incline the whole body without enough speed there will be insufficient weight on the outside ski? Therefore angulation is necessary rather than optional?
There are many ways to manage the load on the outside ski; in my opinion, the worst is trying to press the outside ski :D Of course, whole body inclination needs speed, no question. I am now working out some details about how and why angulation works; it takes some time to include it in a video. I am pretty sure angulation has nothing to do directly with the outside ski. It looks like, but it is an illusion. Angulation is more about creating a posture to ensure an edge grip. One consequence of a better edge grip is the load on the outside ski, but it is not the only one.
@@OzoneSkiing It is logical to me that a skier will need angulation to keep more weight on the downhill ski. If the skier was going extremely fast then he may be able to incline a lot without any or very little angulation and still keep enough weight on the outside ski in preference to the inside ski. When a skier is not going extremely fast they will want to incline to put the skis on their edges, but if they only incline there will be too much weight on the inside ski and so they have to angulate to keep most of the weight on the downhill ski.
1. I want to create a video about the relationship between weight and load on the ski. Shortly, the load on the ski (the effort that creates the turn) originates from the lateral forces but not the weight. Depending on the inclination, body weight can help ensure snow contact, but not the load making the turn. 2. If I try to demonstrate angulation at a lower speed, it is a very unnatural posture, actually without function, only an image. I consider skiing at lower speeds without angulation a proper posture, and angulation at lower speeds is overdue, often just an imitation. I need more angulation at a higher speed to ensure a better grip (which can result in a better load). So, in this case, angulation is not a direct movement for increasing load; it works indirectly through better grip. Very high speed, good conditions, and high-level skills can allow for less angulation with big inclination, but it is a special case. So, in my opinion, angulation is not used to control load through body weight. We can use, for example, short-leg and long-leg for load distribution without ruining posture.
Amazing- 100 years of ski history and finally someone can explain the mechanics and dynamics of skiing to the regular people! Thank you!
Thanks! Of course, this is not very simple, but it is not mysterious either.
Actually, every part of skiing is very logical and complex at the same time. That's why it is so exciting! :)
This is a superb explanation of inclination and angulation, the combination of the two. I need to listen several times to this information. Thank you so much!
Thank you!
You are right; it takes time to listen. Editing content such as this is always a tough decision. If I cut it short, I will be superficial and disrespectful with the content.
If you need a written version of the topic, there is also an article:
www.ozone-skiing.com/en/post/inclination-vs-angulation
Hasznos anyag, kösz! Nagyon érthetően -és főként helyesen - mondod el a lényeget. Másik hozzászólóval ellentétben: ennyi magyarázat nem sok, hanem ennyi kell, ha valaki meg akarja érteni.
A video maga pedig nagyon profi, igényes munka.
The best explanation of this impotant topic! Many are skiers and even instructors keeping only to the agulation!
You need to angulate if you are not going fast enough. If you only incline you will have not enough weight on the outside ski and that is why you see so many skiers, including the best in the world, angulating and inclining.
Many compliments, well done and well thought video. Perfect. Thank you 😊
Thank you! :)
Köszönöm! Nagyon hasznos és elgondolkodtató volt!
You’re on a roll brother. Top shelf.
Thanks!
Yes, more detail please. With regard to angulation created at the hip sockets, greater angles can be made if the hips are countered slightly toward the outside of the turn. The upper torso need not counter so creating a torsional force to keep pressure on the ski tip edge. Which brings up rotational movements generally of the body needed to create a downward pressure on the ski tip edges in high inclination turns.
Köszönöm, mindig szivesen hallgatom a szakmai magyaräzatod. Oktoberben talälkozunk!
Köszönöm! Legyen így!
Köszönjük!
Igen jól esik a visszajlezés,, nagyon szépen köszönjük! :)
Great video! (and great conversation below). Thanks. Put *very* simply, it seems like inclination = the angle between the edge and the center of mass. That's it. Nominally, with no angulation, this angle will be the same as the edge angle. However through angulation you can tweak (generally increase) edge angle. Angulation also sets you up to have more forgiving control over edge angle where banking (inclination == edge angle, no angulation), well you'd better get that angle perfect because you have little ability to tweak in the turn otherwise.
So here is a question: Why is banking sometimes superior to angulation in a turn?? My guess is that you can apply more force to the edge, meaning you are going faster and are less likely to slip, without angulation.
Also, it isn't clear to me why you say it is impossible to have a turn with no inclination? For a turn, you need pressure and edge angle. That's it, for a carved turn. I can see that for high edge angles this is true, but very strictly, couldn't I maintain my center of mass directly over my skis, but just through angulation have a non-zero edge angle with 0 degrees inclination, which would result in a zero-inclination turn?? With skidding this is even easier and you can make turns of any radius. Ok, now that I think about it, if you really had 0 degrees inclination, you could start the turn but you would immediately fall over to the outside. So yes you need at least enough inclination to avoid falling over.
Your question gave me some ideas. I am working on the next videos, and honestly, I was stuck in deciding how to split the topics and what to include in the videos. Thanks!
One topic can be about the difference between inclination and banking. Angulation is for tweaking the turn. No tweaking is needed when the inclination, the postures, and everything else are nearly perfect. So, yes, in some circumstances, a posture without angulation can be more powerful than with angulation.
Regarding why we need at least a light inclination, your final conclusion is right: you need some inclination not to fall over the skis. The amount of inclination is related to the forces. Skidding reduces the forces from the turn but doesn't completely eliminate them, so we need less inclination. But there is no turn without lateral forces. In the presence of lateral forces, you need the corresponding inclination to be stable. You're right.
Fantastic explanation.
Thank you! There are more in progress!
I think this video shows a high quality with impressive analysis of ski technique.
I have only two remarks. The explanations are a little unnecessarily complicated and my opinion is that angulation with the bending of the spine to the side of the body is not a mistake, but a useful tool.
Thank you, János; I appreciate it!
Regarding the variations of angulation, I could have gone into more detail. :)
In my opinion,
In terms of angulation, we are not of the same opinion.
Your comment points out an interesting topic. It would be useful to find a platform for an open conversation, and it would be instructive to discuss this.
@@OzoneSkiing My basic starting point is that all body movements that can improve a ski turn should be considered useful and that is the opposite of mistakes. Banking, which means not doing any angulation at all, can very well be considered a mistake, because the upper body ends up mostly over the inside ski and it counteracts the healthy optimal distribution of ski pressures between the skis.
Angulation by bending the spine to the side has a positive effect on the distribution of ski pressures, it can also give higher edge angles and greater inclination. I can't see any decisive disadvantages. The whole body ends up closer to the center point of the turn, if there are edge angles and inclination during the shaping phase of the turn. In addition, I believe that the reduction in stability via the core musculature is only moderate.
@@JanosKoranyi You mention "banking". What is the difference between banking and inclination?
@@inquistive These are two different terms, but they are connected to each other.
Inclination means that your body-mass is at the side of your skis and it is necessary in order to make a ski-turn because you must have edged skis in all ski-turns. Edged skis are mandatory in all ski-turns.
Banking means that you have no angulation during your ski-turn, so the midline between your legs and the line of your spine is the same line. In angulation it is an angle in this line. This angle can be at the level of your hip joints or in your waist. Angulation can improv your ski-turns but it is not mandatory.
Kedves János! Több hozzászólásban is írod, hogy a derékban történő szögelés, kihajolás nem hiba, hanem "megoldás".
Sajnos ezt tévesen tudod, mert a hajolás, a test derékban megtörése az bizony hiba. Egyrész nem a legegészségesebb, másrészt az ilyen hajolásra törekvés akadályozza is a hatékony kanyarodást. A derékban hajló amatőr síelők 99%-a az élezésből veszít a kanyarban, azokkal szemben, akik csípőben oldják meg a "szögelést", pontosabban nem is törekszenek erre, de a jó kanyarképzés miatt valamennyire automatikusan kialakul náluk.
Surely if you incline the whole body without enough speed there will be insufficient weight on the outside ski? Therefore angulation is necessary rather than optional?
There are many ways to manage the load on the outside ski; in my opinion, the worst is trying to press the outside ski :D
Of course, whole body inclination needs speed, no question.
I am now working out some details about how and why angulation works; it takes some time to include it in a video.
I am pretty sure angulation has nothing to do directly with the outside ski. It looks like, but it is an illusion.
Angulation is more about creating a posture to ensure an edge grip. One consequence of a better edge grip is the load on the outside ski, but it is not the only one.
@@OzoneSkiing It is logical to me that a skier will need angulation to keep more weight on the downhill ski. If the skier was going extremely fast then he may be able to incline a lot without any or very little angulation and still keep enough weight on the outside ski in preference to the inside ski.
When a skier is not going extremely fast they will want to incline to put the skis on their edges, but if they only incline there will be too much weight on the inside ski and so they have to angulate to keep most of the weight on the downhill ski.
1.
I want to create a video about the relationship between weight and load on the ski.
Shortly, the load on the ski (the effort that creates the turn) originates from the lateral forces but not the weight.
Depending on the inclination, body weight can help ensure snow contact, but not the load making the turn.
2.
If I try to demonstrate angulation at a lower speed, it is a very unnatural posture, actually without function, only an image. I consider skiing at lower speeds without angulation a proper posture, and angulation at lower speeds is overdue, often just an imitation.
I need more angulation at a higher speed to ensure a better grip (which can result in a better load). So, in this case, angulation is not a direct movement for increasing load; it works indirectly through better grip.
Very high speed, good conditions, and high-level skills can allow for less angulation with big inclination, but it is a special case.
So, in my opinion, angulation is not used to control load through body weight. We can use, for example, short-leg and long-leg for load distribution without ruining posture.