Rumination Analysis on Tales Of The Abyss
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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abyss is my personal favorite game in the series.
luke is one if not the only rpg main characters that does not like killing a human being as i don't recall seeing it used every again.
replaying the game also made looking at Luke more interesting. at first you just think he acts the way he does because he is a sheltered noble and never seen the world. then the whole twist about him being 7 year old happens and it all fits into place.
really abyss has the best developed cast both heroes and villains and luke may be the most developed protag in the series.
Your take on the Luke/Asche thing at the end is basically the same as mine except for one key difference; I think it's Luke with Asche's memories rather than the other way around. There's only a few minor clues, but just the way the "Luke" we see at the very end speaks and carries himself feels more Luke than Asche. There's also the way he carries his sword on his back like Luke while Asche always carried it at his hip. The sword's also placed to be drawn from the left side (Luke is left-handed, Asche is right-handed, because the artists wanted them to be mirror images of each other whenever they fought). Just my take.
Agreed. The final Luke is a pluperfect recompletion of the Sacred Flame. And he's VERY attracted to Tear.
About the ending, you have to remember that a point that was made in the game was that there was a possibility that the score didn't actually predict the future. Instead, reliance on the score and the people's choice to stick to destiny was what actually created the future "predicted" in the score. So the score was broken in the end because even though Van hated the score and wanted to defy it, he was in fact the most attached to it, the most dependant on it, so the future he wanted to create would actually be the future that the score predicted, even though he didn't consciously realize it. So by stoping the world's destruction, Yulia's score was finally broken.
I cant wait hear about rumination of tales of vesperia and xillia
Symphonia too. No, ESPECIALLY Symphonia!
a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one
Abyss is tied with the Kingdom Hearts series and Final Fantasy 6/9/10 for my favorite stories in gaming. Typing this before watching, but I really hope you liked Abyss :)
Love the rumination so far, but was extremely surprised when you said you didn't like the absolute legend Kirk Thornton as Jade. Was very shocked.
Also, regarding your theory. I have pretty much the same thought, except I don't believe their souls were merged. Just their bodies. Which explains why Luke could keep on living after the ending. I believe Asch has passed onto this settings afterlife. A big reason why I interpret the ending as that is because I've always ALWAYS hated the soul merging concept. Roxas, Xion, and Naminé probably set that off in me when I was younger. The thought that their existence is erased borderline sickens me, same with Luke. So I will always think of the ending character coming toward the party is just Luke. And fortunately for me, there is mounds of evidence pointing to it being Luke. Hair to the left, Left handed sword horizontally placed on his lower waste, light red hair as opposed to Asch's dark maroon, soft voice, speaking to Tear directly, Luke's color scheme of clothing.
But that's what the creators want. Us to make up our own minds. So the epilogue works for everyone in that case. We can decide what character we loved the most. And for me, that was Luke. And in my mind, the evidence point to Luke. Not to mention Luke / Tear is probably my favorite ship in all of fiction. Their adorableness is unparalleled!
From what I remember of the game (since I haven't played in awhile), Van's Eldrant plan wasn't a part of the Score. What was supposed to be the destined end of the world was that Kimlasca wins the war against Malkuth, but a disease/plague forms from all the leftover corpses in the Malkuth Empire that comes into the kingdom and everyone in the Kimlasca kingdom dies as a result.
The replicas are also outside of the Score. The destruction of Akzeriuth is a part of the Score because that's what causes the predicted war between Kimlasca & Malkuth in the first place, but Luke destroying the Rugnica Plains' Sephiroth wasn't because the fight there was supposed to be won by Kimlasca, which leads to Malkuth's eventual downfall.
Personally when it comes to the whole Luke and Asch ending thing, I always thought it was pretty much the reverse of what you said. So instead of it being a merged body where Asch is in control and has Luke's memories, I always thought Luke was the one in control. My reason for this is simply because, well....Asch was kinda dead at this point. Luke's was the only personality left at the time the merger took place. Plus given how Luke had really only just become his own person and then willingly made the choice to give up his own life, I would like to think Lorelei would see that and reward him for that sacrifice by giving him the chance to really live his life for the first time. There are also little visual clues that suggest the person standing there at the end is, for all intents and purposes, Luke. For one he carries the same type of weapon that Luke did throughout the game instead of the long broadsword that Asch uses. Also the handle of the blade is facing the left hand and Luke was the one who used his left hand to wield his sword while Asch always used his right hand.
I just saw it as Namco wanting you to choose the ending by leaving it so open ended, so there is no definite or canon answer to this question and there will never be one. As the "Luke" we see at the has Asch's long flowing hair and Luke's yellow bangs, but seems to wield his sword with his left hand, and the promise made could be perceived as the one made to either Tear or Natalia, I mean it is pretty strange that they made that so vague if they really wanted you to get a clear cut answer from the scene. So as I see it there are 3 options to choose from in this case.
Option #1: After Luke's fonons begin to pull apart and his body fades away Lorelei transfers his consciousness and personality into Asch's body. This is why we see Asch's hand begin to move as Luke is now in control of this new body. The long hair could easily be explained as Luke's hair growing out over the last 2 years.
Option #2: Instead of transferring Luke's consciousness into Asch, Lorelei decides to transfer his fonons, breathing new life into him, which is why his hand twitches, as he is now regaining consciousness. The way that Asch carries his sword left-handedly and wears his hair with bangs could be seen as him trying to honor Luke's memory.
Option #3 (The saddest one in my opinion): As Luke begins to dissipate, Lorelei merges his fonons and consciousness with Asch's. This results in a new Luke in the form of a hybrid personality of the two with both their memories combined, which explains the long hair with yellow bangs and the way that the "Luke" we see holds his sword. This is why he says "Someone" when talking about the promise he made, as he may not have all of his memories yet.
I honestly just hate the third option because that means both Tear and Natalia are left heartbroken, and the "Luke" that we get isn't really Asch or Luke leaving things feeling really empty and bitter sweet. It's even worse because it'd be a complete waste of their character arcs, what's the point in building them up if we're never gonna see them again? I personally prefer option #1 as I'm more attached to Luke.
13:05 i can completly agree (haven't seen passed this point as of typing, so i'm not sure right now if he mentions this), and would like to add on a point of subtle difference which is the "master, i can't swim" scene.
I'm actually so happy. I love your ruminations, and this one especially is one of my favorites. Keep up the awesome work.
I love that the Tales of games have so much depth. Thanks for covering it!
Thanks for the rumination Lore, I was really looking forward to this and you didn't disappoint. With regard to the ending, I think the subversion of the Score is primarily caused by the merging of Luke and Asch immediately following Asch's death, allowing Luke to perform the more powerful hyperresonance. If I recall correctly (I haven't played this game in a few years so I forget a couple of details), the second-order hyperresonance pretty much allows Luke to control the creation and destruction of fonons by himself, which I imagine would radically alter the fonon patterns predicted by the Score. He becomes a walking fonon anomaly which the Score can't account for, which is only furthered when he physically fuses with Luke/Asch/maybe Lorelei. And of course, the other subversion is preventing the destruction of the planet by Van.
Out of curiosity, did you look into the Contamination side quest? It goes a bit into the "science" of perfect replicas and gives a bit of context into the fusion at the end. I always viewed that Luke and Asch's actions at the Tower of Rem, Luke's subsequent degradation, and Asch's early death ends up subverting the predicted outcome of "Original dies from fonon degradation > Replica is reabsorbed into Original > Original revived with Replica memories". I feel like it fits thematically that Luke's actions would subvert the expected outcome of fomicry and be the dominant personality at the end with some of Asch's memories.
My biggest peeve about the game, which you don't mention, is the localization. This game was first released in NA when Namco was really dragging their feet with localizing these games, since they weren't super successful. The game has a lot of talented voice actors (Yuri Lowenthal, Liam O'Brien, Johnny Yong Bosch, of course Micheal McConnohie), but I feel they didn't they have good voice direction at times. That, and the skits... I agree with you that the skit system is great, but the fact that the localization team didn't bother to voice them is a crime. Even in Tales of Legendia they didn't voice the last half or third of the game because they thought it was "side content".
Anyway, that's all I have to say at the moment. I'm glad you enjoyed the game, it's a personal favorite of mine. They haven't made another game in this setting but I agree with you, seeing some sort of sequel without the Score would be really cool.
Wasn't Asch experiencing degradation to? He's says he's going to disappear soon after him and Luke fight.
He was. All we really know about the Big Bang comes from a side quest or two, so we don't really know what happens if an Original dies before their fonon separation.
The way I interpret it is that by Asch dying to Van's soldiers prior to his fonon separation, and Luke artificially causing fonon separation in himself at the Tower of Rem, the expected process of the Big Bang fusion was thrown out of whack and reversed. That's why Luke's victory over Asch was really important. If Luke had lost the fight, their roles would've been reversed at the end, with Luke being killed by the knights and the fusion saving Asch's life, as expected for the Big Bang.
From a thematic stand point I think that makes a lot of sense; from what I recall in a side quest, Jade and Dist are absolutely certain that Luke will eventually give his life to save Asch's through the Big Bang, since that is what the laws of fomicry dictate. I think it's fitting that Luke, despite all odds, managed to overcome that destiny, which parallels the themes regarding the Score.
But that's just my perspective. Like Lore said the ending is meant to be interpretive and is ultimately up to the player to decide for themselves.
@lorerunner your conjectures about Ion are correct, there's a manga describing his last days and he was idd a terrible human beign the polar opposite to the Ion appearing in the game, not sure if he was the one creating the entire plan of the antagonist but he was idd a fervent believer of the idea
the combat does by default lock you into a line of movement. but holding a button down lets you free move
Van was right all along. 35:53
Van can be thought as a radical, a revolutionary. He wanted to change the world and to break away from the traditions of the past, and knew that it would require sacrifices that would be against common morality.
The path taken by Luke and his ilk is the reformist path. They didn't change the world, the power structures remain the same, and they want to change the world from within. Did they accomplish anything in the end ? Did the world around them actually change between the beginning and the ending ? No.
While Van lives for a purpose, Luke just... lives. That's what the final dialogue says. And living for the sake of living is the antithesis of heroism.
Van is the real hero of the story. Willing to play dirty and do realpolitik for a higher purpose.
I loved the Dandelion reference. Great point.
I didn’t get into the Tales series until Xillia, when the series started to localized a lot more often and releases became more frequent as a result
The best Tales of game by a country mile in my opinion. My 2nd favorite game of all time.
Must be said, the 3DS version is ok but the PS2 NA version is the definitive version of the game. They actually added special Mystic Artes in the NA version of new game + that isn't in the japanese version which is odd now that I think about it.
Tales of Vesperia (360/PS3) & Tales of Symphonia (NCG) are the only other 3D Tales games I adore.
The perfect Tales of game would have this: Tales of Vesperia graphics/art style, Vesperia/Symphonia/Abyss overworld map, A Tales of the Abyss/Graces f mashup style of combat, Tales of the Abyss writing team, A new head music composer & sound design team, Animated cutscenes still done by Production IG, Opening theme song by J-Pop act supercell, BRING BACK THE TOS/TOTA/TOV AIRSHIPSSS!!! I miss a proper Tales of airship.
I would like to hear you ruminate about Klonoa 2. I really like listening to these.
Not my favorite Tales game. But I really did enjoy it overall. Some of the ideas tackled and how they handled the story stuck with me.
Never clicked on a video so fast!!
Just beat this game recently. Great game!
The only tales of I ever played was tales of phantasia, and I loved it. I didn't want to play tales of symphonia, because I hate it when the stereotype of a goddess showing up, and dumping a quest on her "chosen one" is applied. I like it when people make decisions for themselves.
Daos was hyper sympathetic
The freedom lover in me tells me that something in people transcands the boundries of absolute predictability, and of time itself.
The guy that knows a little bit about physics tells me that time is in fact happening all at once, and that our linear perception of it only shows how enslaved we are to it. In theory, it should be possible create a mathematical formula to deduce what will be from what was, if propper access to all the nessesary data is available. Something that, of course, cannot be achived given the very nature of what we are. But, even if that was possible, I don't think it is something that should be endeavored.
even tho symphonia like all tales games subverts it and the goddess is not really a goddess.
really with the tales of game i tend to tell peole not to judge it by the first 8 hours as there is gonna be a plot twist that changes your understanding of the story.
That's the beginning of Symphonia. If you play a little longer, you'll be surprised by the story. There is no goddess in that game, except at the end. There are major plot twists in Symphonia, and the game is worth it ;-)
Yeah, you should play the game because you're really missing out the context and twists with the whole "Chosen one" thing
@47:30 this is known as transference in psychology
Where'd you talk about Symphonia? I mean Abyss is great and all, but there's no Zelos.
As someone who has just begun supporting you on Patreon, I can't seem to find an exact place where the modus operandi of "requests" stated. Are requests required of certain donation level or are they an extra one can make via a higher, singular donation?
So this question has come up a lot lately and I plan to put together a page on the website explaining it to point to in the future, but for now; I have a process called the Floodgates where about once a year I open up to supporting Patrons to request and vote on Ruminations for the following year. Then once done (whole process is about a month long to make sure everyone gets heard) I close the Floodgates back down and setup the schedule for the coming year.
I was about 25 hours into this game when my dog got a hold of the cartridge (3DS). I enjoyed everything I played and definitely would have finished it had that not happened. The idea of starting over is a bit too much for me :/.
jebber gaming jaws I played through about 3 or 4 times. I would say it's worth it. Although it's been a long time since then lol. And having to start over because something forced you to might sour it a bit...
It is definitely still worth it. Story is amazing and the music and the fights. Just superb
The plot sounds similar to that of Legacy of Kain, only without the time travel itself.
gilgamesh310 it's actually nothing like LoK.
Hi bro I'm a big fan and I wanna know if your gonna ruminate Star trek Discovery?
No plans as of now. No time, really.
Only one thing to say about this game: INDIGNATION!!!
The cultural stagnation and your curiosity of post game events reminds me of ffx and ffx-2. Once sin was gone in ffx-2 no one knew what to do with their life. I wonder if you agree with that or not?
tales of the abyss is the only tales game i finished. the others for some reason cant hold my attention