I think the main problem is that the writer of the main trilogy (justifiably) didn't want to continue Pheonix's story because he rounded it off so well to such a satisfying conclusion. Apollo was created so to resolve this issue, but Capcom demanded to bring Pheonix back, sometimes back in the spotlight because he was more profitable. I feel like if they committed to the new protagonists fully and made the stories as fulfilling and engaging as the OG trilogy, things would have turned out better. Don't get be wrong, I'm emotionally invested in so many of the original cast, but characters like Pheonix were finished on a satisfying note for a reason: their stories are over. You can still have them in the games of course, but Capcom is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
You pretty much summed my video better than me, I agree with everything you just said here, it would be nice if capcom would commit to the new characters they've introduced so we can get a game where we play as Athena only or even a sequel to Apollo Justice would be nice
They did create a new cast and commit to it fully but sadly dai gyakuten saiban will never leave Japan. I've played the fan translation and it's really good, far better than spirit of justice or dual destinies. You have to get cfw to patch it which is really easy now and well worth the effort.
Phoenix story wasn't over, it's over just if you want to, at the end of AA3 he was still pretty much seen as a relatively rookie attorney, they could have continued his story with interesting element making him more experienced in an interesting way
The names of the series using the Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice is only for the western versions of the game. For every game in japan (Minus Great and Investigation), its always been Turnabout Courtroom followed by the games number. I feel if you look at AA to TT as the Phoenix Trilogy, and AJ to SoJ as the Apollo trilogy, it helps with the flow a bit better.
i saw so many damn videos about problems with modern Phoenix Wright, i saw people say it's about minigames, about missing characters, too many characters, not allowing to connect back to characters backstories, trying to bank too much on old characters and their behaviors... this might be utterly stupid, but what if the problem lies in lack of focus in both the franchise and specific games? this isn't a serious argument or anything, i just thought of it randomly.
I do enjoy aa4. But aa5 and aa6 just feel... weird. The writing relies too much on tropes for me. +it feels like the dialogue is just pol running around in circles to me.
Imagine putting Phoenix Wright in the title of a game that doesn't even have Phoenix Wright as the main character. It's just common sense not to do that.
I personally really enjoy the main character passing the torch and staying on the sidelines. Hobo Phoenix I just love as a character, it's the same character from the OG Trilogy but life has made him mature.
In a nutshell, while I do think both Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice are good Ace Attorney games, I don't think they are good Phoenix Wright games, these two games should have been separate from the Phoenix Wright series but that's just my opinion
I don't even think the new games do all that good a job developing Apollo, almost everything they show us about his character was stuff we already knew about him from AJ just spelled out more obviously. Other than his relationship with durke which is handled quite well I don't think his backstory adds much to his character, if anything it it just raises the question of why he never mentions this stuff in AJ (duhrkes situation is basically the same as phoenixes, why does Apollo never comment on this?). I think one of the bigger issues is that the series feels stuck in its own past, why did they ignore AJ? Why is Phoenix still a 35 year old rookie? Why did they bring maya back just for her to be a defendant again and do almost nothing with her character? This is why Phoenix is still there, the series is afraid of moving on and this is why they were so afraid of even acknowledging AJ Also personally I don't think most of the cases in DD and SOJ are even that good, I basically only like 2 cases from DD and even though I enjoyed all of SOJs cases overall (emphasis on overall, cause 3 and 5 do some real dumb shit at times), magical turnabout is the only one id say was anything more than fairly good
Honestly, I pretty much agree with you. I personally got reeeally attached to the original characters and had a difficult time getting used to the new ones, especially in the games that were still called 'Phoenix Wright'. When I just saw the title, I expected the original story to continue and the original characters to be brought back once again for some new difficult cases that would reveal new aspects of their previous stories, but got really disappointed and confused to see that it was actually a mix of different new characters sharing the spotlight of being the main ones. I don't hate these games and I still think that they are unique and interesting bc of the gameplay and some cases that I personally enjoyed solving, but it just felt wrong sometimes. As if the original story was mixed with another one and merged together like two different puzzles, so the pieces never really completed each other. More than that, the story of Phoenix and his friends seemed pretty finished to me, so at this point pushing it further could only be the right decision if there was actually something in their previous stories that made them incomplete. Which I can't really think of. So, maybe it would be better to let Phoenix and other old characters step aside, maybe become side characters that would sometimes show up during investigations and give advice/just chat with new main characters for a little bit. But merging new and some old ones in the same plot doesn't seem like a well-thought-out decision.
There's this thing called "Raiden syndrome" in which you replace a beloved character with another good character and it always causes some level of disconnect. Sometimes, you just wanna play as the "main" character "
yeah i agree that the newer games dont really need the "phoenix wright" tag, but they do feel like blue prints for the new direction ace attorney is going in, while dangling phoenix around for marketability. introducing apollo and athena in aa4 and 5, and technically writing apollo off in aa6. i think now is a good time to justify having separate apollo and athena games, and not constantly pile up characters, stories, and their mechanics into one game still
Just make new interesting characters and remove some older ones (or sparse appearances) , TGAA was a masterpiece, Appolo and Athena are both average characters, I would even say assistants/secondary characters are more interesting at that point.
I disagree with some things. I think Phoenix should have been there in dual destinies. He is a mentor so being a lawyer himself is better. And it also deepens his friendship with edgeworth. And when we look at the cases I don't think athena and apollo would have a good with 5-4 and 5-5. In both of those cases athena will have to do everything herself since apollo left. We know the crazy help she needed in 5-3 to win. Even if she proved that the astronaut was innocent in 5-4 she would have been arrested thanks to the phantom. This means she won't be able to investigate at all. Even if she could have there is not a chance in hell she would beat miles. She gave up early in the case and Phoenix himself needed help from blackquill to progress. And Phoenix also had the magatama showing him black locks. And if athena never existed the dd was entirely upto apollo he wouldn't have been able to win because widget isn't there and more importantly the protagonist himself is leaving. That doesn't make much sense. In SoJ I agree with most important things. If I want to disagree I will have to look at every minor detail you say. I will have to nitpick. Your point about SoJ was very well made. Some few things I disagree are that I don't think we need apollo justice 2. I think he got more than enough development and the thing with thalassa can be fixed in a game focusing on other characters. If anything we need an athena cykes game especially since she only got 2 case so far with 1 not even having investigations. A full game with 4 or 5 cases will be good. I agree with SoJ having too much characters. It ruined Phoenix and athena a lot. Athena proved herself in dd and here she is a child. She is supposed to be the genius who became an attorney at age 18. They ruined Phoenix by making him pathetic. The Phoenix I knew would have won without much problems in 6-3. They also made Phoenix lose on civil trial somehow. They forgot his development in jfa. Phoenix was able to stand against miles edgeworth even when the truth was against him and maya wasn't well. Even then he almost allowed matt to leave. Phoenix himself went against matt to get him the guilty verdict. In civil trial Phoenix lost to apollo who is way worse than edgeworth. But I believe they could have improved SoJ with all 3 characters. It isn't that hard to give athena an investigation sequence and make Phoenix better in 6-3. Also they could have made civil trial better by making it harder for apollo and athena and also making it such that Phoenix himself didn't allow the politician to escape by saying something and they both finally destroying Paul. They could have also reduced some plot armour apollo got.
Well we all have to agree that we play this game because of phoenix, edgeworth and their friends in the first place. The cases will be the second reason we play. But as the game get a new version, there's less and less of phoenix, edgeworth and their friends. I love the new characters too but i just miss the old characters, they're the one that make this game interesting and make me play it. I didn't really play the new one. And as he said, there are just too many new characters.
Just saw this and i know im super late but have you played dai gyakuten saiban(the great ace attorney) i think that is the reboot done right. Actually amazing!
I've actually never played it no, I've seen gameplay of it though and it does look really interesting, besides Phoenix Wright Vs Professor Layton, that and it's sequel are the only games I have yet to play
Some notes: - 0:33 lol they still didn't fix the typo. - Actually the one who intended for AJ to be a reboot was Shu Takumi, he only added Phoenix to the game due to executive meddling. - Black Psyche Locks return in DD and are actually explained there. - Maya was technically in PLvAA and DD before SOJ. - I agree with you 100% on Magical Turnabout, amazing case. - You also briefly play as Maya, Mia and Edgeworth in the original trilogy, although all of these were much more shortlived than the new trilogy. Very good video overall, while I personally like the new trilogy more than the OT you do make some good points. I feel the NT should've been more focused on Apollo and Trucy, while yes they did try with Apollo (with a pretty good ending to his arc), Trucy doesn't really do anything in DD and SOJ aside from her own case (tbh aside from 6-5, the most notable thing she did post-AJ was getting kidnapped,) It's a real shame because Trucy is my favourite assistant and Apollo is my favourite defense attorney (in spite of how mediocre AJ was as a game.) Though DD's my second favourite behind AAI2, I will admit that it is heavily flawed and SOJ is only like my sixth favourite I think.
The Phoenix Wright / Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney games are just called Gyakuten Saiban 1 through 6 in Japan, and Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is just one of the numbers (4, actually). If you are thinking of Apollo Justice 2... think again.The Japanese naming won't make it make sense. (Well, we can always have it use the next number?)
I feel like the main games just have a pretty fucked continuity now. Even if we do get an Apollo sequel, newcomers will have to play through at least 3 games to understand that one (Apollo Justice, Dual Destinies, and Spirit of Justice). Even if Apollo Justice 2 is amazing, that's a pretty huge barrier to entry. Especially because Apollos first game is considered by many fans to be ok at best. Dual Destinies is an improvement, but it's still nothing special. It wouldn't surprise me if newcomers to the series would abandon the series at one of those 2 games, which would probably make any more sequels a bad investment by capcom
Honestly, the main problem tends to stem from the fact that Trials and Tribulations and Apollo Justice were both written as a conclusion and continuation going forward in the series. Apparently, the original head writer was busy on the Layton Crossover after Apollo Justice and it stalled so long the remaining AA producers had to make both the Investigation games and take over the main games because fans were getting impatient. Capcom also really wanted to capitalize on Phoenix resulting in him appearing in AJ and being sort of stuck into DD. As the new writers weren't sure what direction to continue the story, they decided to take the approach of their other games and keep Phoenix in. Their previous games though required the assumption that all players going into Duel Destinies were new players which meant any plot lines for AJ had to be cut (because the major plot was tied directly to cases and they didn't want to deter people who started in DD from playing AJ because they knew the major details). This resulted in the problems that Ace Attorney would get in DD and SoJ. First, the disconnect means that we can't develop Apollo or any characters from his game. Additionally, Phoenix has to be a lawyer otherwise the ??? flags would be raised because people didn't play AJ. Then, they decided to take approaches similar to the previous games to appeal back to the fans who were disappointed by AJ as well as nostalgia bait. If you pay close attention to DD, it follows a very similar story structure to TaT even including a fractured narrative style with the case order. Athena also basically has the same plot lines of Edgeworth just without the same route. SoJ would continue that trend by harking back to previous games with Maya, the story structure, and more ideas similar to previous games. However, this also has the double edged sword of trapping the characters in limbo. There isn't a strong arc bridging the games. After all, you can't connect AJ to DD due to the non-reference continuation rule nor can you really rectify the separate things into a cohesive whole. Phoenix's story is done. Yes, you can have the game center on him and deal with other people's stories from his perspective. However, it's really hard to do something with this type of character as it almost always makes it feel like the story is always happening elsewhere and giving the player a sense of disconnect and passivity as they never feel like they're in the middle of the action. Likewise, this also results in too many characters to juggle around especially when you add in characters like Athena who's story is pretty done. Yes, she has room to grow moving forward but they basically made her have one of the shortest backstories and resolutions in AA to the point there's really not much to do going forward without either being a retread, obvious retcon, or forced storyline meant to create something that isn't there. She's just a loose thread they added in and can't be sewed much more without stretching her out. And honestly, after the messy way her character was handled in DD (in my opinion), I wouldn't find her compelling as a stand alone attorney which kind of leaves her in a just there for the sake of it position. As a result, the whole franchise is just sort of in a limbo stasis where there's really no direction to go now. Another soft-reboot will fail, retreading and nostalgia baiting will run dry, and the characters are almost entirely cleared of any room to move forward. At least when AJ ended, it had a lot of potential to flesh the story forward. AJ just wasn't a story designed to be a one-off game but a continuation story so its resulted in this long standing disparity that I don't see AA having an easy solution out of anymore.
And this Is why i would rather Capcom spend resources making Ace attorney games without the old characters, it's Time we Let the past go and come up with fresh ideas. The great Ace attorney Is a beautiful example of this. I absolutely adored That series and would love More like it.
The problem is that phoenix completed his character arc back in trials and tribulations. So to put him back in new games in such a prominent role is nothing but fanservice. He doesnt learn anything in the new games. But the new characters who do need a character arc get screentime taken away. Thats why apollos given the cheap route of having 826472 backstories instead of a character arc and athena, trucy, and the new prosecutors are important for like one game and then show up in the future with no trace of their character development, if they even had any. Its bc theyre too busy putting in stepladder jokes between phoenix and maya. If they just let the old characters go and were willing to spoil previous games like the original trilogy did then we would have gotten a much better sequel trilogy
Might be controversial but i just pretend aa5 and aa6 dont really exist... i guess i just dont click with the way the new writer... writes things. Im just sticking with shu takumi... (for the matter, i also dont really like AAI all that much. But i enjoy the idea of his spinoff)
I truly wanted to put a like here but I can't. You said that it's not a game about Phoenix Wright if in the game he is just investigating other characters backstories? For me it is weird for two reasons. 1) No one said that the plot of the main character should develop in every game. It is just a common thing that people think is necessary. 2) Most of Phoenix story was uncovered before, so adding new characters broadens mechanics and story (before it was just magatama, now there is also widget and Gramarye vision).
My main issue with the newer phoenix wright games is the fact that Phoenix Wright as a character feels like he's there just for the sake of being there, I don't mind if the game is about Phoenix or not I just don't like his inclusion in the newer games and would rather have Apollo Justice and Athena Cykes appear in their own games so they can both get more screen time of their own instead of all three of them sharing the spotlight
@@shadexao Well, he is there because he started all that universe, so I do appreciate that he is in game. However, doing a lots of series of games with more-less same gameplay and the same main character will become boring for the audience quickly. So it is easier to add a new main character, and from their backstory you can get a new gameplay features (Cykes and Apollo)
To be honest i got no problem with spirit of jusice, i did have a problem with dual destinies but it wasn't major, but once i grew to like the 3D sprites and such, i felt like spirit of justice was another one of the games with no problems. overall i love dual destinies and spirit of justice, spirit of justice being the one i like more because of... Dhurke of course.
Even it's wrong when in Phoenix HD u can see Klavier using glasses when he's with a short hair.... and Godot drinks coffee at a trial..... even no drinking,no eating,no hats,no sunglasses in a trial.
and when we did have multiple playable character in the 3rd ace attonery game and the 2nd investigations game it was important to the case in the latter's case or important to the overall story in the former's case.
I have to agree with the video. Its so many protagonist that you cant bound with them so easily, i would prefer that It would be 3 series that can have the caracters appearing but not interfering with each other game. This way we could have more time with each one Arc. Or bigger games like Phoenix vs layton giving a chance to have much more Episode for each protagonist and bigger arcs
Pheonix is probably only in these games because Apollo and Athena are technically still only rookies and Phoenix is still teaching and helping them for when those 2 go to trial (this is a guess fyi I have only seen the intro to Apollo justice and the whole of the tv show)
I've just recently played Apollo Justice, the only one I have left from the core series is Spirit of Justice. I like most new characters just as much as the originals (except for Trucy, which I feel was kind of unnecessary), and honestly, Phoenix ruins a bit of those games for me. In AJ, Phoenix basically uses Apollo as a puppet for whatever crazy intentions he had, and it felt like he was taking all of Apollo's agency away. I also really liked Athena Cykes in DD, she has one of the most mature and dark backstories in the series, but yet again, Phoenix just takes everything away from her. I'm completely on board with Phoenix coming back and being some sort of a legend or mentor figure. I actually think him facing Miles in DD was a good nostalgic moment, but he just takes too much from everyone else for me to keep liking him as I did before. That, added to the retcons in Apollo's story, makes it feel like they really didn't want to take the story on that direction. They didn't even need to use all the characters at the same time like it's baggage, maybe just mention them in the newer games or give them a cameo (they did that with Klavier on DD). In the end I don't even like the originals more than the newer ones, DD being my favorite so far and JFA being my least favorite. I just hope that they try harder if they ever want to keep the series going.
Why adding disclaimers for Athena ? Like you wouldn't have the right to hate on her. I know some communities on the internet think they're the police but hey just ignore them. I personally think most things about her are bad, her gimmicks, chara design, somehow her personality too. At that point they should just remove Appolo/Athena from the spotlights and bring more interesting characters, even going further with Phoenix (He is still young, if you think about it for a minute you'll see plenty of scenario possibilities) would be better.
Honestly athena's storyline is pretty good and they should make it so they have these games instead. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney
dd and soj having to juggle 3 playable characters is something of an issue. nether of those games feel like they are ephoniex's games he is just there while athena gets the spot light in dd and Apollo gets the spot light in soj. they wanted to make phoniex the mia role in aj but he was more interesting of a character then Apollo to the point he hijacks case 1 and 4. the jury thing annoys me. all this build up and it is just gone. a fan game did a better job acting as a sequel to aj by virtue of having the jurists still there. and last i just hate those 3d models. they don't work i have the same issue in virtues last reward compared to 999. the animations don't look right. the first 3 ace attonery games and the investigation games are really good. while the 2nd trilogy feels like they should not exist.
my issue is too many characters we had Nick and Maya now we have them Apollo, Trucy, Athena Ema, and you know what is great? I hate almost all new characters Trucy pulled a stunt in turnabout corner which was personal for me it was a spit in the face I dropped Apollo game and never returned Ema is annoying, useless Maya on discount with Zero story relevance (guy died MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH fuck you Ema) Athena well she is kinda there so okay her reason to be there was for final case in Dual Destinies outside of that she is mediocre at best ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO NICK AND APOLLO Apollo is great Dual Destinies should have been Phoenix and Apollo together and nothing more
My dude here hating on Apollo and Athena and the new games in general just because they have a lot of character and dont focus on just one. Man, the Ace Attorney series were never about Phoenix Wright to begin with, he was just there to move things along. By the way, Apollo was indeed a big hit, it was the most sold game of the franchise. Also, thanks for the spoilers!
You missed my whole point, in short, the Phoenix Wright trilogy the main focus was on Phoenix and his character development, while the modern games showed all three characters, they were good ace attorney games but not so really Phoenix Wright games, not only was there too many characters but each of these characters didn't really get that much attention, like an example would be Athena in Spirit of Justice, she was just there because they wanted her to be there, Athena was a bit irrelevant in SOJ, also I never hated Apollo Justice, I prefer it over the first game actually, but my opinion is still my opinion and that most of the cases were boring, and also come on I'm talking about Phoenix Wright here, spoilers were going to be talked about.
@@shadexao Yeah, I guess I should´ve seen it coming. Anyway, my point still stands, the games were never about Pheonix in the first place, he was just the force that moved the plot forward. The first game was about Edgeworth and his redemption, the second game was about... something? To be honest, I have no idea what the hell the 2nd game was aiming for, and the 3rd was all about the Fey family, and you can argue that Phoenix developed through the games, and that´s true, but was never the focus of the games anyway. Also, I think Apollo is a better attorney than Phoenix, atleast better than he was in the original trilogy.
@@thatrandomcrit5823 Well it's just, Phoenix Wright in the modern games feels kinda forced to be in the games, sure he's needed for certain plots but that's what makes his story too convenient, of course he got his badge back and of course he's a lawyer again, it just feels rushed and feels like Capcom forced Phoenix back in the games just so they can have his name in the title, also I actually do prefer Apollo over Phoenix, I think Capcom really nailed Apollo's character development and personality in SOJ really well, but anyway I guess we can just agree to disagree with our opinions
Damn, nice voice
Vega do u really gotta talk about his voice all the damn time
N O V E G A
I think the main problem is that the writer of the main trilogy (justifiably) didn't want to continue Pheonix's story because he rounded it off so well to such a satisfying conclusion. Apollo was created so to resolve this issue, but Capcom demanded to bring Pheonix back, sometimes back in the spotlight because he was more profitable.
I feel like if they committed to the new protagonists fully and made the stories as fulfilling and engaging as the OG trilogy, things would have turned out better.
Don't get be wrong, I'm emotionally invested in so many of the original cast, but characters like Pheonix were finished on a satisfying note for a reason: their stories are over. You can still have them in the games of course, but Capcom is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
You pretty much summed my video better than me, I agree with everything you just said here, it would be nice if capcom would commit to the new characters they've introduced so we can get a game where we play as Athena only or even a sequel to Apollo Justice would be nice
They did create a new cast and commit to it fully but sadly dai gyakuten saiban will never leave Japan. I've played the fan translation and it's really good, far better than spirit of justice or dual destinies. You have to get cfw to patch it which is really easy now and well worth the effort.
Well I mean, he's Phoenix Wright. You don't have to know the name "Ace Attorney" to know who Phoenix Wright is.
@@guy_5108 How do you feel about "dgs will never leave japan" now
Phoenix story wasn't over, it's over just if you want to, at the end of AA3 he was still pretty much seen as a relatively rookie attorney, they could have continued his story with interesting element making him more experienced in an interesting way
The names of the series using the Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice is only for the western versions of the game. For every game in japan (Minus Great and Investigation), its always been Turnabout Courtroom followed by the games number. I feel if you look at AA to TT as the Phoenix Trilogy, and AJ to SoJ as the Apollo trilogy, it helps with the flow a bit better.
Yeah it makes a lot more sense that way, DD and SOJ always felt more like Apollo Justice games, his trilogy.
@@shadexao dd felt more like athena Or Phoenix game.
I grown with Miles. Give him back.
Same bro
Y E S
His Comeback is too Outdated
@@ghostrider3723 like the updated autopsy report in case 2 first game..? Ah yes.
YEEES
i saw so many damn videos about problems with modern Phoenix Wright, i saw people say it's about minigames, about missing characters, too many characters, not allowing to connect back to characters backstories, trying to bank too much on old characters and their behaviors... this might be utterly stupid, but what if the problem lies in lack of focus in both the franchise and specific games? this isn't a serious argument or anything, i just thought of it randomly.
I do enjoy aa4. But aa5 and aa6 just feel... weird. The writing relies too much on tropes for me. +it feels like the dialogue is just pol running around in circles to me.
Imagine putting Phoenix Wright in the title of a game that doesn't even have Phoenix Wright as the main character. It's just common sense not to do that.
I personally really enjoy the main character passing the torch and staying on the sidelines. Hobo Phoenix I just love as a character, it's the same character from the OG Trilogy but life has made him mature.
In a nutshell, while I do think both Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice are good Ace Attorney games, I don't think they are good Phoenix Wright games, these two games should have been separate from the Phoenix Wright series but that's just my opinion
So it should be called “Everything: Ace Attorney - Dual Destinies”?
@@JJPMaster that works lol
@Atou Ngoh exactly my thought, which is why I mentioned Athena's case in SOJ not being related to the plot at all
I don't even think the new games do all that good a job developing Apollo, almost everything they show us about his character was stuff we already knew about him from AJ just spelled out more obviously. Other than his relationship with durke which is handled quite well I don't think his backstory adds much to his character, if anything it it just raises the question of why he never mentions this stuff in AJ (duhrkes situation is basically the same as phoenixes, why does Apollo never comment on this?).
I think one of the bigger issues is that the series feels stuck in its own past, why did they ignore AJ? Why is Phoenix still a 35 year old rookie? Why did they bring maya back just for her to be a defendant again and do almost nothing with her character? This is why Phoenix is still there, the series is afraid of moving on and this is why they were so afraid of even acknowledging AJ
Also personally I don't think most of the cases in DD and SOJ are even that good, I basically only like 2 cases from DD and even though I enjoyed all of SOJs cases overall (emphasis on overall, cause 3 and 5 do some real dumb shit at times), magical turnabout is the only one id say was anything more than fairly good
This is some really good criticism.
4:27 that scared the crap out of me lol
Lol
It terrifies you.
Honestly, I pretty much agree with you. I personally got reeeally attached to the original characters and had a difficult time getting used to the new ones, especially in the games that were still called 'Phoenix Wright'. When I just saw the title, I expected the original story to continue and the original characters to be brought back once again for some new difficult cases that would reveal new aspects of their previous stories, but got really disappointed and confused to see that it was actually a mix of different new characters sharing the spotlight of being the main ones. I don't hate these games and I still think that they are unique and interesting bc of the gameplay and some cases that I personally enjoyed solving, but it just felt wrong sometimes. As if the original story was mixed with another one and merged together like two different puzzles, so the pieces never really completed each other. More than that, the story of Phoenix and his friends seemed pretty finished to me, so at this point pushing it further could only be the right decision if there was actually something in their previous stories that made them incomplete. Which I can't really think of. So, maybe it would be better to let Phoenix and other old characters step aside, maybe become side characters that would sometimes show up during investigations and give advice/just chat with new main characters for a little bit. But merging new and some old ones in the same plot doesn't seem like a well-thought-out decision.
I agree, we need our Apollo Justice 2. Me taking on 500 cases at the same time sounds.... ehhhh....
Hey, Le Polly Justice
I think the word you searched is "objectable", Mr. Justice.
There's this thing called "Raiden syndrome" in which you replace a beloved character with another good character and it always causes some level of disconnect. Sometimes, you just wanna play as the "main" character "
Which Raiden we talking about?
@@acidicali7776 the one that mailed his fission
Spuds Larsson what?
@@acidicali7776 He was talking about Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 2...
Robin1996ify ooh got it
0:33 lol they still didn't fix the typo
yeah i agree that the newer games dont really need the "phoenix wright" tag, but they do feel like blue prints for the new direction ace attorney is going in, while dangling phoenix around for marketability. introducing apollo and athena in aa4 and 5, and technically writing apollo off in aa6. i think now is a good time to justify having separate apollo and athena games, and not constantly pile up characters, stories, and their mechanics into one game still
Yes exactly!
Just make new interesting characters and remove some older ones (or sparse appearances) , TGAA was a masterpiece, Appolo and Athena are both average characters, I would even say assistants/secondary characters are more interesting at that point.
I disagree with some things. I think Phoenix should have been there in dual destinies. He is a mentor so being a lawyer himself is better. And it also deepens his friendship with edgeworth. And when we look at the cases I don't think athena and apollo would have a good with 5-4 and 5-5. In both of those cases athena will have to do everything herself since apollo left. We know the crazy help she needed in 5-3 to win. Even if she proved that the astronaut was innocent in 5-4 she would have been arrested thanks to the phantom. This means she won't be able to investigate at all. Even if she could have there is not a chance in hell she would beat miles. She gave up early in the case and Phoenix himself needed help from blackquill to progress. And Phoenix also had the magatama showing him black locks. And if athena never existed the dd was entirely upto apollo he wouldn't have been able to win because widget isn't there and more importantly the protagonist himself is leaving. That doesn't make much sense. In SoJ I agree with most important things. If I want to disagree I will have to look at every minor detail you say. I will have to nitpick. Your point about SoJ was very well made. Some few things I disagree are that I don't think we need apollo justice 2. I think he got more than enough development and the thing with thalassa can be fixed in a game focusing on other characters. If anything we need an athena cykes game especially since she only got 2 case so far with 1 not even having investigations. A full game with 4 or 5 cases will be good. I agree with SoJ having too much characters. It ruined Phoenix and athena a lot. Athena proved herself in dd and here she is a child. She is supposed to be the genius who became an attorney at age 18. They ruined Phoenix by making him pathetic. The Phoenix I knew would have won without much problems in 6-3. They also made Phoenix lose on civil trial somehow. They forgot his development in jfa. Phoenix was able to stand against miles edgeworth even when the truth was against him and maya wasn't well. Even then he almost allowed matt to leave. Phoenix himself went against matt to get him the guilty verdict. In civil trial Phoenix lost to apollo who is way worse than edgeworth. But I believe they could have improved SoJ with all 3 characters. It isn't that hard to give athena an investigation sequence and make Phoenix better in 6-3. Also they could have made civil trial better by making it harder for apollo and athena and also making it such that Phoenix himself didn't allow the politician to escape by saying something and they both finally destroying Paul. They could have also reduced some plot armour apollo got.
Well we all have to agree that we play this game because of phoenix, edgeworth and their friends in the first place. The cases will be the second reason we play. But as the game get a new version, there's less and less of phoenix, edgeworth and their friends. I love the new characters too but i just miss the old characters, they're the one that make this game interesting and make me play it. I didn't really play the new one. And as he said, there are just too many new characters.
Just saw this and i know im super late but have you played dai gyakuten saiban(the great ace attorney) i think that is the reboot done right. Actually amazing!
I've actually never played it no, I've seen gameplay of it though and it does look really interesting, besides Phoenix Wright Vs Professor Layton, that and it's sequel are the only games I have yet to play
@@shadexao Please give it a go, its available free on android for the first game by one of the fans translations by scarlet study
@@teckleedeyi I probably will play it eventually whenever I get around to doing that, thanks though!
Some notes:
- 0:33 lol they still didn't fix the typo.
- Actually the one who intended for AJ to be a reboot was Shu Takumi, he only added Phoenix to the game due to executive meddling.
- Black Psyche Locks return in DD and are actually explained there.
- Maya was technically in PLvAA and DD before SOJ.
- I agree with you 100% on Magical Turnabout, amazing case.
- You also briefly play as Maya, Mia and Edgeworth in the original trilogy, although all of these were much more shortlived than the new trilogy.
Very good video overall, while I personally like the new trilogy more than the OT you do make some good points.
I feel the NT should've been more focused on Apollo and Trucy, while yes they did try with Apollo (with a pretty good ending to his arc), Trucy doesn't really do anything in DD and SOJ aside from her own case (tbh aside from 6-5, the most notable thing she did post-AJ was getting kidnapped,)
It's a real shame because Trucy is my favourite assistant and Apollo is my favourite defense attorney (in spite of how mediocre AJ was as a game.)
Though DD's my second favourite behind AAI2, I will admit that it is heavily flawed and SOJ is only like my sixth favourite I think.
The Phoenix Wright / Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney games are just called Gyakuten Saiban 1 through 6 in Japan, and Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is just one of the numbers (4, actually). If you are thinking of Apollo Justice 2... think again.The Japanese naming won't make it make sense. (Well, we can always have it use the next number?)
I feel like the main games just have a pretty fucked continuity now. Even if we do get an Apollo sequel, newcomers will have to play through at least 3 games to understand that one (Apollo Justice, Dual Destinies, and Spirit of Justice). Even if Apollo Justice 2 is amazing, that's a pretty huge barrier to entry. Especially because Apollos first game is considered by many fans to be ok at best. Dual Destinies is an improvement, but it's still nothing special. It wouldn't surprise me if newcomers to the series would abandon the series at one of those 2 games, which would probably make any more sequels a bad investment by capcom
0:12 Modern compared with The Trilogy
0:30 Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney
1:22 Athena Cykes
3:29 - Too many characters, too many stories within 1 game
6:03
"A game theory- um wrong channel"
Nice reference.
Yeah, focusing on one character is what made Ace Attorney tick.
Where is gumshoe?
Me, looks at the title
FE: *am I the joke to you?*
Honestly, the main problem tends to stem from the fact that Trials and Tribulations and Apollo Justice were both written as a conclusion and continuation going forward in the series. Apparently, the original head writer was busy on the Layton Crossover after Apollo Justice and it stalled so long the remaining AA producers had to make both the Investigation games and take over the main games because fans were getting impatient. Capcom also really wanted to capitalize on Phoenix resulting in him appearing in AJ and being sort of stuck into DD. As the new writers weren't sure what direction to continue the story, they decided to take the approach of their other games and keep Phoenix in. Their previous games though required the assumption that all players going into Duel Destinies were new players which meant any plot lines for AJ had to be cut (because the major plot was tied directly to cases and they didn't want to deter people who started in DD from playing AJ because they knew the major details). This resulted in the problems that Ace Attorney would get in DD and SoJ. First, the disconnect means that we can't develop Apollo or any characters from his game. Additionally, Phoenix has to be a lawyer otherwise the ??? flags would be raised because people didn't play AJ. Then, they decided to take approaches similar to the previous games to appeal back to the fans who were disappointed by AJ as well as nostalgia bait. If you pay close attention to DD, it follows a very similar story structure to TaT even including a fractured narrative style with the case order. Athena also basically has the same plot lines of Edgeworth just without the same route. SoJ would continue that trend by harking back to previous games with Maya, the story structure, and more ideas similar to previous games. However, this also has the double edged sword of trapping the characters in limbo. There isn't a strong arc bridging the games. After all, you can't connect AJ to DD due to the non-reference continuation rule nor can you really rectify the separate things into a cohesive whole. Phoenix's story is done. Yes, you can have the game center on him and deal with other people's stories from his perspective. However, it's really hard to do something with this type of character as it almost always makes it feel like the story is always happening elsewhere and giving the player a sense of disconnect and passivity as they never feel like they're in the middle of the action. Likewise, this also results in too many characters to juggle around especially when you add in characters like Athena who's story is pretty done. Yes, she has room to grow moving forward but they basically made her have one of the shortest backstories and resolutions in AA to the point there's really not much to do going forward without either being a retread, obvious retcon, or forced storyline meant to create something that isn't there. She's just a loose thread they added in and can't be sewed much more without stretching her out. And honestly, after the messy way her character was handled in DD (in my opinion), I wouldn't find her compelling as a stand alone attorney which kind of leaves her in a just there for the sake of it position. As a result, the whole franchise is just sort of in a limbo stasis where there's really no direction to go now. Another soft-reboot will fail, retreading and nostalgia baiting will run dry, and the characters are almost entirely cleared of any room to move forward. At least when AJ ended, it had a lot of potential to flesh the story forward. AJ just wasn't a story designed to be a one-off game but a continuation story so its resulted in this long standing disparity that I don't see AA having an easy solution out of anymore.
And this Is why i would rather Capcom spend resources making Ace attorney games without the old characters, it's Time we Let the past go and come up with fresh ideas.
The great Ace attorney Is a beautiful example of this. I absolutely adored That series and would love More like it.
Imagine if your in the game and people says to you
The game isnt fun cause you exist! 🤣🤣🤣
Oof
Poor apollo
And athena
F
I wonder if Cykes will get her own trilogy next?
The way I look at it is that its just for the branding and DD should've been Athena Cykes AA, and SoJ Shouldve been Apollo Justice 2.
I turned on subtitels it said pollock instead of apollo
The only problem here that is they don't added enough miles
The problem is that phoenix completed his character arc back in trials and tribulations. So to put him back in new games in such a prominent role is nothing but fanservice. He doesnt learn anything in the new games. But the new characters who do need a character arc get screentime taken away. Thats why apollos given the cheap route of having 826472 backstories instead of a character arc and athena, trucy, and the new prosecutors are important for like one game and then show up in the future with no trace of their character development, if they even had any. Its bc theyre too busy putting in stepladder jokes between phoenix and maya. If they just let the old characters go and were willing to spoil previous games like the original trilogy did then we would have gotten a much better sequel trilogy
Might be controversial but i just pretend aa5 and aa6 dont really exist... i guess i just dont click with the way the new writer... writes things. Im just sticking with shu takumi... (for the matter, i also dont really like AAI all that much. But i enjoy the idea of his spinoff)
And here I am, still waiting for Miles Edgeworth Investigations 2...💀
I truly wanted to put a like here but I can't. You said that it's not a game about Phoenix Wright if in the game he is just investigating other characters backstories? For me it is weird for two reasons. 1) No one said that the plot of the main character should develop in every game. It is just a common thing that people think is necessary. 2) Most of Phoenix story was uncovered before, so adding new characters broadens mechanics and story (before it was just magatama, now there is also widget and Gramarye vision).
My main issue with the newer phoenix wright games is the fact that Phoenix Wright as a character feels like he's there just for the sake of being there, I don't mind if the game is about Phoenix or not I just don't like his inclusion in the newer games and would rather have Apollo Justice and Athena Cykes appear in their own games so they can both get more screen time of their own instead of all three of them sharing the spotlight
@@shadexao Well, he is there because he started all that universe, so I do appreciate that he is in game. However, doing a lots of series of games with more-less same gameplay and the same main character will become boring for the audience quickly. So it is easier to add a new main character, and from their backstory you can get a new gameplay features (Cykes and Apollo)
To be honest i got no problem with spirit of jusice, i did have a problem with dual destinies but it wasn't major, but once i grew to like the 3D sprites and such, i felt like spirit of justice was another one of the games with no problems. overall i love dual destinies and spirit of justice, spirit of justice being the one i like more because of... Dhurke of course.
I know i'm late but the problem that i have with the new trilogy is that it doesn't feel that personal
TO. MANY. CHARACTERS.
Even it's wrong when in Phoenix HD u can see Klavier using glasses when he's with a short hair.... and Godot drinks coffee at a trial..... even no drinking,no eating,no hats,no sunglasses in a trial.
and when we did have multiple playable character in the 3rd ace attonery game and the 2nd investigations game it was important to the case in the latter's case or important to the overall story in the former's case.
The modern games do bring up some good concepts
I have to agree with the video. Its so many protagonist that you cant bound with them so easily, i would prefer that It would be 3 series that can have the caracters appearing but not interfering with each other game. This way we could have more time with each one Arc. Or bigger games like Phoenix vs layton giving a chance to have much more Episode for each protagonist and bigger arcs
good idea apolo justice 2,phoenix wright ace attorney 2,ace attorney investigation 3,these what i want
Pheonix is probably only in these games because Apollo and Athena are technically still only rookies and Phoenix is still teaching and helping them for when those 2 go to trial (this is a guess fyi I have only seen the intro to Apollo justice and the whole of the tv show)
Capcom: Apollo justice 2 could be a bit more profitable WRIGHT?
Pheonix Wright: OBJECTION!
I've just recently played Apollo Justice, the only one I have left from the core series is Spirit of Justice. I like most new characters just as much as the originals (except for Trucy, which I feel was kind of unnecessary), and honestly, Phoenix ruins a bit of those games for me. In AJ, Phoenix basically uses Apollo as a puppet for whatever crazy intentions he had, and it felt like he was taking all of Apollo's agency away. I also really liked Athena Cykes in DD, she has one of the most mature and dark backstories in the series, but yet again, Phoenix just takes everything away from her.
I'm completely on board with Phoenix coming back and being some sort of a legend or mentor figure. I actually think him facing Miles in DD was a good nostalgic moment, but he just takes too much from everyone else for me to keep liking him as I did before. That, added to the retcons in Apollo's story, makes it feel like they really didn't want to take the story on that direction. They didn't even need to use all the characters at the same time like it's baggage, maybe just mention them in the newer games or give them a cameo (they did that with Klavier on DD).
In the end I don't even like the originals more than the newer ones, DD being my favorite so far and JFA being my least favorite. I just hope that they try harder if they ever want to keep the series going.
Good analysis ! :D
Why adding disclaimers for Athena ? Like you wouldn't have the right to hate on her. I know some communities on the internet think they're the police but hey just ignore them.
I personally think most things about her are bad, her gimmicks, chara design, somehow her personality too. At that point they should just remove Appolo/Athena from the spotlights and bring more interesting characters, even going further with Phoenix (He is still young, if you think about it for a minute you'll see plenty of scenario possibilities) would be better.
I only want the newest game because one case has my favourite characters. Aka from the original trilogy
Honestly athena's storyline is pretty good and they should make it so they have these games instead.
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney
Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney
Ace attorney
Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice
Endgame
They're over the top. I think case 5 of the first game was the best.
dd and soj having to juggle 3 playable characters is something of an issue. nether of those games feel like they are ephoniex's games he is just there while athena gets the spot light in dd and Apollo gets the spot light in soj.
they wanted to make phoniex the mia role in aj but he was more interesting of a character then Apollo to the point he hijacks case 1 and 4.
the jury thing annoys me. all this build up and it is just gone. a fan game did a better job acting as a sequel to aj by virtue of having the jurists still there.
and last i just hate those 3d models. they don't work i have the same issue in virtues last reward compared to 999. the animations don't look right.
the first 3 ace attonery games and the investigation games are really good. while the 2nd trilogy feels like they should not exist.
my issue is too many characters we had Nick and Maya now we have them Apollo, Trucy, Athena Ema, and you know what is great? I hate almost all new characters Trucy pulled a stunt in turnabout corner which was personal for me it was a spit in the face I dropped Apollo game and never returned
Ema is annoying, useless Maya on discount with Zero story relevance (guy died MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH fuck you Ema)
Athena well she is kinda there so okay
her reason to be there was for final case in Dual Destinies outside of that she is mediocre at best ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO NICK AND APOLLO
Apollo is great Dual Destinies should have been Phoenix and Apollo together and nothing more
You can't blame dual destinies writers about throwing out everything out the window apollo justice createdy cuz it was shit xd
There are no problems with ace attorney. Case closed.
My dude here hating on Apollo and Athena and the new games in general just because they have a lot of character and dont focus on just one. Man, the Ace Attorney series were never about Phoenix Wright to begin with, he was just there to move things along. By the way, Apollo was indeed a big hit, it was the most sold game of the franchise. Also, thanks for the spoilers!
You missed my whole point, in short, the Phoenix Wright trilogy the main focus was on Phoenix and his character development, while the modern games showed all three characters, they were good ace attorney games but not so really Phoenix Wright games, not only was there too many characters but each of these characters didn't really get that much attention, like an example would be Athena in Spirit of Justice, she was just there because they wanted her to be there, Athena was a bit irrelevant in SOJ, also I never hated Apollo Justice, I prefer it over the first game actually, but my opinion is still my opinion and that most of the cases were boring, and also come on I'm talking about Phoenix Wright here, spoilers were going to be talked about.
@@shadexao Yeah, I guess I should´ve seen it coming. Anyway, my point still stands, the games were never about Pheonix in the first place, he was just the force that moved the plot forward. The first game was about Edgeworth and his redemption, the second game was about... something? To be honest, I have no idea what the hell the 2nd game was aiming for, and the 3rd was all about the Fey family, and you can argue that Phoenix developed through the games, and that´s true, but was never the focus of the games anyway. Also, I think Apollo is a better attorney than Phoenix, atleast better than he was in the original trilogy.
@@thatrandomcrit5823 Well it's just, Phoenix Wright in the modern games feels kinda forced to be in the games, sure he's needed for certain plots but that's what makes his story too convenient, of course he got his badge back and of course he's a lawyer again, it just feels rushed and feels like Capcom forced Phoenix back in the games just so they can have his name in the title, also I actually do prefer Apollo over Phoenix, I think Capcom really nailed Apollo's character development and personality in SOJ really well, but anyway I guess we can just agree to disagree with our opinions
@@shadexao Sounds like a nice idea! We´re FINE!
Dual destinies hits the mark of a good ace attorney game, spirit of justice just sucks
Ok boomer