NOTE: This unit is NOT A HALDEX, it is a Borg Warner. I used the term Haldex because that is basically what we all still call it. LOL Also I have a DSG teardown video coming soon! Be sure to like this video if you like teardown goodies!!! Thanks so much
@@sharg0 yes they bought the company haldex traction systems.. very common practice.. you have numerous smaller companies with a parent company.. but the factories still have haldex traction systems above the door, still the same designers workers etc, just a new parent company.
@@scottmclean337 yes, you could, but you'd add much more stress into the transfer case, and that may blow eventually (they also fail sometimes). the smartest is to get a haldex controller, so you can choose when you want it to be permanent awd, and disengage it when you dont need it
We are Haldexrepairs in the UK, this Gen 5 haldex coupling is perfectly fine and has not failed mechanically. It is most likely to just have pump failure. The clutch is still totally good. But the most common part for coupling failure is actually the outer O ring seal on the piston you removed at 4:26 gets chewed up and leaks. That is pretty much the only thing that fails on them. Good luck! And we call it a Haldex even though its a Borgwarner Power Drive Systems G5 coupling due to licencing issues since Haldex AWD was sold to BorgW. Enjoy :)
can you get bearing kits for the differential section? i have had 2 come thro now with knackered output bearings on the drivers side. no-one has let me have a car long enough to ID the bearings. (in the UK too)
I had a outwaren pump too. I changed it to a new one and the system was totally fine. Now I have a new problem with my rear final drive. If im going between 60 to 100 kph, i get a really loud wummering noise from the back of my car. The noise is not on contact with any tirestuff or so. I think I have to replace all my bearings in the Haldex/Differential unit. Seems like that this is also a common issiu with the Haldex. I have 190000km on the clock an its a 2014 Golf 7 Variant 2.0TDI.
@@patrykkrol9433 I don't recall any play that shouldn't be there, was diagnosed with a stethoscope and running the car up to speed on a ramp, was a failed bearing for sure but no customer has yet been willing to let me have their car for a few weeks to strip and identify the bearings
Good vid! It does seem in this case the pump motor is the cause of the failure. I've seen this type of clutch packs in a fishing boat gearbox, where it locked in gear. It was caused by the clutch plates on the input shaft wearing notches in the spline, causing the plates to lock in place so they couldn't disengage not the ideal situation in a boat!
Pump motor failed. Clean and reassemble with new motor and ride out. Those clutch friction discs aren’t too bad. Same type of multi plate wet clutch as motorcycles use. You can dress the steel plates by polishing them with some 400 grit paper glued to a surfacing plate. I have saved many dirt bike clutches this way that were much worse.
Could we infer that the pump's failure was caused by the black debris? As if the pump's internal weren't sealed properly? Because if that's the case, the failure seems inevitable and changing the pump should be part of routine maintenance.
Interestingly when I explained what is in an automatic transmission to my Uncle once the first thing he said was that it was just motorcycles that have them. This just shows you how easy it is to be ignorant or uneducated on these things. I am not even an expert on these things but I do at least know the way that they do work. Of course once when I started my 2006 Jetta and it took around 30 seconds for the idle to go down (normal for a modern vehicle) he thought hitting the accelerator would make it go down faster but he is so old fashioned he thought it had a carburetor ROFL!! He must not realize that for quite a long time no US vehicles have ever had one of those!! Whatever you do don't let him within 50 miles of your vehicle because he doesn't understand fluid specs and would probably ruin something.
Charles....Check the pressure release valve at the top of the casing where the prop shaft flange meets the clutch pack housing....to the right of the HA1 casing mark at 2:11 to 2:37 in the video. See if it is clogged with debris...let us know...if you find anything there. Debris causing it to stick open = clutch slip and overworking the pump motor... then some type of failure. Also, after replacing a pump...the relearn procedure is omitted...leading to replacement of entire rear units...that would have otherwise returned to normal function.
I had a loss of rear traction on my 2015 S3 and noticed the voltage to the motor was less than half of what it is supposed to be under full load. Replaced the motor with new fluid and it’s now working correctly, pushing 11.xx volts to the rear motor. Definitely a best first step if you’re dealing with this issue as the motors can be had for
Had the same issue on my 2015 S3, noticed I had a fwd car, took it to the dealer and they replaced the pump under warranty. Happened at around 50k km (sorry, in Canada, not using miles). Car is now at 115k km, gonna service it soon.
It was quite interesting to see the progression from the Mk 4's Haldex to this Haldex-type Not-A-Haldex-because-Borg-Warner-makes-it system. I was curious if the glitter was ferrous or non-ferrous as that might narrow down its origin. Also, I wonder if the pump/screen was clogged with metal debris prior to going into the shop. In any case, it seems like the pump got sad, which made the motor brushes get real spicy, hence the lovely black powder that dumped out of its housing.
@@HumbleMechanic Close to 3 years now. I recommend to do it every year or so. I did clean the pump motor thing and replaced the oil but front wheels were still spinning. The oil was dark though. After about 2 months I came across an article that said to do that and it worked. The clutches wear over time, so the calibration adjust the clamp force so the rear wheels get the correct amount of power again- I guess. I bought my car in 2014.
A few notes and questions: -Clutch pack is available from Audi, about 600-700eur, but this pack didn't look too bad. I've seen some pairs that are fused together. -Pump is available from both borg warner and Audi, there are also service kits around for much less. Generally the brushes go bad, the pump can be tested with 12V. -The pump continuously runs when you start the car. Theres also a small pump / actuator inside the control unit with a plunger blocking/allowing the oil to flow and this is what controls AWD, probably that has failed as well. -You are correct, Audi europe service manual doesn't have a rebuild guide. But I have a Audi USA PDF that has rebuild instructions. There are no measurements for putting the haldex together but there are extensive measurements on the diff-haldex side, otherwise there will be noise when running. Now the questions: -Can you mix and match parts from two broken haldex/diff units? Eg clutch and plate pairs? -Especially, can you mix and match diff and haldex halfs? My mechanic says crown wheel and pinion are "married" with each other and you can't match them, it will be noisy. I have a broken awd that no longer works on my Audi TT mk1, AWD works on the lift but on the ground the rear wheels don't engage... Haldex fluid was pitch black last time I checked it.
Ewwwww..... that electric motor!!! Any chance that replacing the pump's motor would've been enough to bring that Haldex back to life, considering the underwhelming amount of metal grinds in the oil and clutch components?
I've been considering getting a smaller car but I still want awd. My current car has quattro (torsen) and never really requires any service to that system so it's helpful to see how one of these haldex based systems work and what to expect. Thanks!
Just wanted to help out since I had this issue. Like mentioned (and thank you again HumbleMechanic) it could be the pump, but it can also be the haldex controller which was my problem. Though if your haldex clutch packs are bad you can replace them from Powerzone in Europe. I'm sure they'd carry the clutch packs other places as well. Hope this helps someone.
IM thinking those metal shavings got between the clutches and caused them to drag tripping the computer to sense movement when it should not have any. Not serviceable totally sucks. But a day and the life of newer VWs.
My untuned 2016 MK7 Golf R w DSG had a similar failure at 30,000 miles where my car became FWD only (complete with FWD burnouts when launching the car). Unlike your failure, my dealer said they found a bunch of clutch material in the motor filter as the friction material had disintegrated away from the rings prematurely. I was told that the clutch packs weren't fully compatible with the Haldex, erm, "clutch" fluid. The entire rear diff assembly was replaced under warranty. The outgoing unit was "Rev D" found in 2015 and early 2016 DSG models, and the replacement was Rev G or H.
Great video! Cool to see how it all goes together. Fixed my 2016 R with slipping issues at 40k with replacing the pump and new fluid. Seems like the pumps themselves are causing more issues than the clutch units themselves. Service mine every 20k or so with no issues since. Look forward to the DSG breakdown 💪
@@rkan2 it is servicable, you can change the haldex fluid and clean the filter on the pump. If the pump is actually broken, you can also just put a new one on.
I'm kind of surprised this isn't serviceable, it's just a lighter version of a wet clutch pack that can be found in most tractors for a whole number of applications. I've had no trouble getting an overhaul kit for the under/over transmission in a 1967 Cockshutt 1750 so it seems kind of ridiculous to me that it's easier to get parts for a 55 year old tractor than it is to even try to get parts to overhaul the AWD on cars that are barely even 15 years old and only seems to need a clutch and pump.
I repair these differentials, replacing all four bearings and four oil seals and thoroughly flush each part as well as the housing, from the inside. And that's not counting the Haldex clutch where there's also one ball bearing and one oil seal. If anyone is interested, please feel free to contact me.
That clutch pack looks pretty much like a motorcycle clutch. In a motorcycle, the engine, the transmission and the clutch are, in most cases, lubricated by the same oil. Glitter in the oil is normal and I see it at every oil drain.
Yeah this doesn't even look that bad? Seems like if the motor were replaced it might work ok again though ideally you'd want to replace the clutchpack...which probably isn't easy to get separately given the "replace the unit" repair protocol. 5th gens do seem a good bit more problematic than the 4th gen units, and interestingly the 4th gen units have a real filter, while the 5th does not. Not sure which engineer(s) decided they don't need a filter in the system, but that wasn't a good move.
There is no reason for any of those parts not to be available to rebuild the unit. How many motorcycles would be binned, if you couldn't change the clutch...
Love these tear down vids. Just a quick request: Are you able to do a feature on the VW/Audi Twin charged 1.4 Engine? It'd be a really cool insight into what was a pretty unique concept for a mainstream drivetrain. Cheers
''it's trash anyway'' Why don't you just clean the metal discs and replace the motor? Or it's probably what you gonna do but not gonna tell anybody and keep this unit for when your car fails. Clever!
It’s a hydrostatic pump with pistons on a ramp like in a lawn tractor transmission. For the pump to make pressure it needs super tight piston to bore clearance. Any wear lowers pump pressure letting the clutches slip. That’s why there is was so much brush carbon in the case. Pump is worn out.
@@HumbleMechanic understood, makes you wonder if the higher hp versions like an S5 or S7 might offer a stronger motor to prevent this. It's an opportunity for the aftermarket companies to solve and make money on, I guess.
How does wheel size effect this unit? On Subaru's, if the front tires are worn and the rear tires are new, the computer interprets this as front axle slippage and will engage the clutch [partially] in order to try to reduce front axle speed. This leads to premature failure of the rear axle clutch pack.....
My guess: the motor is bad, so it wasn't clamping as hard as it should. That caused excessive slipping, thus the unusual wear on the clutch disks. I bet a new motor and clutch would have that back to like-new condition.
Can these units be bought rebuilt? This is just like a transmission and differential on any other car. I can't see why these units would not be rebuildable
Volkswagen should be able to deliver the clutch pack because it does not look that hard to replace Also some one should just make a solide piece where the clutch pack lives for always 4wheel drive🤪
Hey Charles, Enjoyed the autopsy! Two questions. How much hp/tq can one of those units handle? Is there a high performance aftermarket for that unit? Thanks.
Charles, what caused this failure? Lack of maintenance, incorrect fluid or a leak? Or did that little electric pump fail? I just want to know to so I can avoid this problem.
Hahahaha fair point! But I suppose this is the whole point of this channel!: the doom 'n' gloom and the preventative maintenance before things 'kaboom!' unexpectedly 😄
I mean I spent the last 20 years fixing VWs. LOL Plus videos of me "using" the cars I have flop. Videos of me showing how things fail, and how to fix them are much more helpful.
@@jessytremblay3867 That would be us! Corrosion in these Haldex controllers is mega big problem depending on your geographic location. Scotland is one of the hardest climates on them.
I drive Tiguan 2013. 2.0 TDI (CFFB engine) 4Motion DSG. Until now (before me) it was serviced in unofficial service shop but I'm planning visit to official service soon. In last service check of the car my current mechanic said to me that he feels to much play in drive shaft coming to rear Haldex (it is about 10 degrees of rotation). He don't repair Haldex part of the car but he think that so much free play is not good. Is this normal or is it a problem and what could be the problem?
Im in the market for a Golf R, but most of what I find doesn’t have any records of the Haldex service, is that something that I should stay away from? Most of the ones I find have 80-95k miles in them and no Haldex service. Or will I be better off with a GTI instead of a golf R. I don’t plan on tracking the car or tuning it in any way.
The lack of warning of awd failure in haldex system is not justified. You get warnings for other not-so-important problems, like egr slow opening speed. If the haldex communicates, you are at least prevented about the fwd tracrion only state. And, the other issue, the 3 yrs no miles haldex oil interval. Some people drive a lot, like more than 100k, in 3 yrs. Some drive in harsh conditions (that s the purpose of awd, no?). Also they don't include with the dealers instructions the cleaning of the pump, which manymany people have encountered as compulsory, in some vehicles.
My rear diff blew up at 70mph with a violent jolt (one of the tapered roller bearings obliterated itself and cracked the diff open as it did so), very soon after my Haldex oil was changed. Working theory is the specialist garage may have drained the diff accidentally (there's even a TSB about this very thing, so it must not be uncommon), given the tone sounded different after the service. I even took it back to them before it blew saying it sounded wrong, but they sent me on my way.
I have a 2008 S3 8P. This is the 2nd Haldex failing on my car. The last failure made rear wheels to lockup completely while going at 160km/h on Autobahn. I was on the left lane, had to pull to right in under 100 meters. Otherwise all the cars at the back crash from behind. Was lucky, I was able to save the car from a crash. But it gives no warning on dash, no whining sound of gears, no jerkiness. Everything seems fine, then rear wheels mechanically lock up. If it happened while I was turning at high speed, it would spin or crash at the hands of the most experienced racing driver. Nothing can disengage rear wheels. We had the same lockup in another 2018 model S3 too. I think the design required to be changed. In case of a failure, it shouldn't mechanically lock the wheels. But it happened 2 times on a 8P car, once in a 8V car. I think it may have killed many people, but it would be very hard to explain what happened after a catastrophic car crash, that your rear wheels locked up. And if the driver is living, will tell you this. But it may be hard to prove it in the court. I think Borgwarner needs to take these units back. Change the design with a safe unit. May cost billions though.
*me worried af because I just picked up a tuned 2015 S3 with no AWD working 😅☠️ New pump arrives Monday and I hope to goodness that's the issue. Car is less than two weeks ownership 😮
If its a common problem it shocks me that the aftermarket (or dealerships) do not have kits for it. Also if the clutch packs often dislike power why not have a puck set that turns it from sometime all wheel drive to permanent all wheel drive and get rid of the issue?
You can get an insert for the old haldex system like what’s in the mk1 Audi TT and mk4 R32, but it’s unusable on the road as it turns the car into full time 4wd, not awd.
Ah, the wonders and joy of ‘modern automotive repairs’ Basic Information: Nope, not available Repair Guides: Nope, not available Repair Parts: Nope, not available
the most GARBAGE system used by VAG ..Ever! Not to mention it is an "Permanent FWD" type of "awd", which is VERY SHITTY especially for some SUV as tiguan or q3.
I'd just like to interject-- you keep saying Haldex, but technically the correct terminology is GNU/Haldex. I've taken to actually referring to it as GNU plus Haldex.
Ohhhhhh man, I remember when mine went........ Pump wasn't serviced by the previous owner, filter basket was clogged badly...... Such terrible terrible noises...... I bought a Ford. I can't say that its much better, but ground clearance and a traditional rear diff and transfer case lets me sleep easier at night.....
It's such a dick move that's not considered a repairable part... First of all, it's very wasteful when it comes to materials and energy. Also, it's a lot more expensive to buy a complete unit when it seems very reasonable to refurb them. That clutch pack FOR SURE should be a part you can buy, cleaning out that system, replacing the motor and replacing the clutch pack should make it like new.
My mom had a 2012 Tiguan she bought new and the Haldex failed around 22000 Km. It was fixed under warranty, after a good fight with the dealer. Dealer in Costa Rica was really a bad one. It has improved a lot in the recent years. I believe it was the pump that failed so the car was basically a FWD instead of a AWD. How she noticed it? When she stopped and start the front wheels will spin. No warning lights or nothing else to let her know something was wrong.
I had my rear diff go out on my 19 Sportwagen with 37k. Strong smell of gear oil but no leaks. Rear wheels locked up. They replaced the whole rear. They said the Haldex was fine. About $6k. Under warranty
I had a mishap when changing the haldex fluid. I unbolted the wrong bolts to pull out the pump and loosened the ground haldex wire by mistake from the screw and did not ground it back properly. After the fluid change started hearing rear clunking at low speed turns. And vibrating when launching. Ended up purchasing new pump that fixed the clunking but vibration on a launch stil persisted. 10 months later vibrating on launch lessened but still present depending how hard I launch. Fml anyway but still drives and pulls.
A couple of Ex VAG mechanics have independently of each other said to me that most of the time on the 5 its the pump that fails and the metal is from inside the pump. One of them said unless you never service it and kick the arse out of it the diffs last for ever. Both said the pumps are complete shite. A quick polish of the clutch plates on this one and a new pump and seals and she’ll be good to go.
So am I the only one looking at this and thinking the actual BW unit was ok, and they missed just replacing the pump motor and possibly flushing the fluid?
That is something that could bee a chance tested as a home mechanic working on your own car. BUT look at the clutch parts again, worn surfaces and metal embedded into the friction discs - that repair wouldn't have lasted, perhaps not worked properly at all. No flushing would solve those issues. If the car was on it's way to the wrecker anyway and the customer just needed to squeeze out another couple of months perhaps a mechanic worth his dime would do it (but then running it in 2WD would make more sense mostly).
Great video humble as usual but can’t you point me in the right direction on what’s a good solution to clean the outside of the haldex, bought a used one and it’s full of axel grease and crude lol
Grumble mutter.... That a so complex part, made up by things like friction discs (that IS a wear part with limited life) "isn't serviceable" according to VAG should be criminal. And the lack of a proper filter. Greedy *censored* car manufacturers.
Mine stopped working on my 2016 Golf R on the later end of 60k miles and I replaced the pump. The pump didn't fix the issue so the dealer ended up replacing the entire assembly under an extended warranty.
@@HumbleMechanic The reason I ended up doing the pump myself was their initial hesitancy to recognize that there was an AWD error. After the 3rd try, I decided to just replace the pump to see if that would cure it. Unfortunately it didn’t work, so after 2 more trips to the dealer with the fault code, they finally decided to replace it:)
The lack of serviceable vehicle components and repair parts is shameful. These components were assembled and should be readily disassembled for a rebuild. The right to repair laws that are being considered, which industry is vigorously opposing, may change the repair industry, but it will be slow in coming. Example, Porsche will not rebuild a failed PDK, $20K for a replacement and they will not make parts available if you wanted to rebuild one, so your point on keeping up with the maintenance or shortening the intervals when used in severe conditions is spot on. Only problem is getting owners to actually do it. As usual, great video.
PRODIGY HumbleMechanic Loved it From the start to finish Thank you very much HumbleMechanic Take care and have a great day HumbleMechanic From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
If its just clutch failure from more power then the need is probably just parts and a thicker or tighter tolerance. Or better parts to factory tolerance. Couple hundred dollars worth maybe.
@@garyhowe88 NICE! I haven't really looked into it. glad to know there are companies getting it done. Its probably a somewhat common part in the automotive world.
As a diy, It might be worth a shot to strip it down flush it out and throw a motor on it, curious how long it would last if you just threw a motor on it and a flush
So how does it control the level of clutch slip? 😮 Does it just pump oil into the clutch housing to press the disks together and controlls it via how much oil pressure there is?
No cat ass trophy 😢 This generation of Haldex has the pump running as long as the engine is running. This causes wear on the brushes, and the dust from the brushes blends with the oil and causes wear on the clutches. The last generation has a different pump design and is actually completely off when 4x4 is not active.
Only question: Why did you keep looking to your right? I've never noticed you do that before in your vids. Something burning on the stove? Haha... Cool vid, as always, Charles!
NOTE: This unit is NOT A HALDEX, it is a Borg Warner. I used the term Haldex because that is basically what we all still call it. LOL Also I have a DSG teardown video coming soon! Be sure to like this video if you like teardown goodies!!! Thanks so much
But it is a haldex... borgwarner just bought them 🤣 still made in the haldex factory...
@@garyhowe88 Actually B.W. only bought the division for hydraulics and four wheel drive systems. Haldex remains as a company of itself.
@@sharg0 yes they bought the company haldex traction systems.. very common practice.. you have numerous smaller companies with a parent company.. but the factories still have haldex traction systems above the door, still the same designers workers etc, just a new parent company.
Could you make a piece to replace that clutch system and then have full time awd?
@@scottmclean337 yes, you could, but you'd add much more stress into the transfer case, and that may blow eventually (they also fail sometimes). the smartest is to get a haldex controller, so you can choose when you want it to be permanent awd, and disengage it when you dont need it
We are Haldexrepairs in the UK, this Gen 5 haldex coupling is perfectly fine and has not failed mechanically. It is most likely to just have pump failure. The clutch is still totally good. But the most common part for coupling failure is actually the outer O ring seal on the piston you removed at 4:26 gets chewed up and leaks. That is pretty much the only thing that fails on them. Good luck! And we call it a Haldex even though its a Borgwarner Power Drive Systems G5 coupling due to licencing issues since Haldex AWD was sold to BorgW. Enjoy :)
Hello
Thanks for the additionnal information,
The o ring that you are talking about, do you know if we can buy it somewhere ?
can you get bearing kits for the differential section? i have had 2 come thro now with knackered output bearings on the drivers side. no-one has let me have a car long enough to ID the bearings. (in the UK too)
I had a outwaren pump too. I changed it to a new one and the system was totally fine. Now I have a new problem with my rear final drive. If im going between 60 to 100 kph, i get a really loud wummering noise from the back of my car. The noise is not on contact with any tirestuff or so. I think I have to replace all my bearings in the Haldex/Differential unit. Seems like that this is also a common issiu with the Haldex. I have 190000km on the clock an its a 2014 Golf 7 Variant 2.0TDI.
@@denisohbrienwas there any space, was there any play on the long cup that connects to the differential (left), any knocking noises when starting?
@@patrykkrol9433 I don't recall any play that shouldn't be there, was diagnosed with a stethoscope and running the car up to speed on a ramp, was a failed bearing for sure but no customer has yet been willing to let me have their car for a few weeks to strip and identify the bearings
Good vid! It does seem in this case the pump motor is the cause of the failure. I've seen this type of clutch packs in a fishing boat gearbox, where it locked in gear. It was caused by the clutch plates on the input shaft wearing notches in the spline, causing the plates to lock in place so they couldn't disengage not the ideal situation in a boat!
when you mentioned Apex Tuning i thought to myself I live right around there. I live within walking distance. what a coincidence.
Thats awesome!
Hey Charles what size socket did you use to unbolt that prop shaft flange?
Pump motor failed. Clean and reassemble with new motor and ride out. Those clutch friction discs aren’t too bad. Same type of multi plate wet clutch as motorcycles use. You can dress the steel plates by polishing them with some 400 grit paper glued to a surfacing plate. I have saved many dirt bike clutches this way that were much worse.
Exactly this! Everything was new inside so pump failed.. That simple
Could we infer that the pump's failure was caused by the black debris? As if the pump's internal weren't sealed properly? Because if that's the case, the failure seems inevitable and changing the pump should be part of routine maintenance.
Interestingly when I explained what is in an automatic transmission to my Uncle once the first thing he said was that it was just motorcycles that have them. This just shows you how easy it is to be ignorant or uneducated on these things. I am not even an expert on these things but I do at least know the way that they do work. Of course once when I started my 2006 Jetta and it took around 30 seconds for the idle to go down (normal for a modern vehicle) he thought hitting the accelerator would make it go down faster but he is so old fashioned he thought it had a carburetor ROFL!! He must not realize that for quite a long time no US vehicles have ever had one of those!! Whatever you do don't let him within 50 miles of your vehicle because he doesn't understand fluid specs and would probably ruin something.
I'm surprised that unit is largely serviceable, nothing seemed to be overly difficult to repair/replace.
which is shocking haha, silly vws
I don't think it is serviceable, I don't think you can buy the parts to repair it, other than the motor?
@@whizzo94 That's the issue VW made a conscious choice to make the parts unavailable.
I'm not a mechanic and would never go this deep on my own vehicle, but I love how you present things that I'll watch it anyways!
Charles....Check the pressure release valve at the top of the casing where the prop shaft flange meets the clutch pack housing....to the right of the HA1 casing mark at 2:11 to 2:37 in the video. See if it is clogged with debris...let us know...if you find anything there. Debris causing it to stick open = clutch slip and overworking the pump motor... then some type of failure. Also, after replacing a pump...the relearn procedure is omitted...leading to replacement of entire rear units...that would have otherwise returned to normal function.
This seems plausible, the amount of black stuff (which i'm assuming is graphite coming from the brushes) would indicate that pump has worked HARD.
@@GeFeldz I would assume the motors are brush less...but I may be wrong....
@@tmw2442 two wires to motor. Not brushless
@@tmw2442 why assume that?
I had a loss of rear traction on my 2015 S3 and noticed the voltage to the motor was less than half of what it is supposed to be under full load. Replaced the motor with new fluid and it’s now working correctly, pushing 11.xx volts to the rear motor. Definitely a best first step if you’re dealing with this issue as the motors can be had for
can you see the voltage in VCDS ?
what voltage did you see before you had replaced it.
Had the same issue on my 2015 S3, noticed I had a fwd car, took it to the dealer and they replaced the pump under warranty. Happened at around 50k km (sorry, in Canada, not using miles). Car is now at 115k km, gonna service it soon.
that's awesome! Too bad it doesn't throw a fault when the voltage gets that low, would probably save a bunch of differentials from the scrapyard.
@@Lord_Verminaard what voltage are you supposed to see with the pump motor?
It was quite interesting to see the progression from the Mk 4's Haldex to this Haldex-type Not-A-Haldex-because-Borg-Warner-makes-it system. I was curious if the glitter was ferrous or non-ferrous as that might narrow down its origin. Also, I wonder if the pump/screen was clogged with metal debris prior to going into the shop. In any case, it seems like the pump got sad, which made the motor brushes get real spicy, hence the lovely black powder that dumped out of its housing.
A case for 'right to repair'. New clutch pack, motor and fluid looks to be the fix.
in this case, just the motor IMO.
That clutch pack wasn't even worn... It's completely servicable.
This is how I fixed a slipping rear Haldex clutch on my Golf 7 R. Use VCDS to re calibrate the rear clutch pack. Saved me a lot of money.
NICE! How long has that held up?
@@HumbleMechanic Close to 3 years now. I recommend to do it every year or so. I did clean the pump motor thing and replaced the oil but front wheels were still spinning. The oil was dark though. After about 2 months I came across an article that said to do that and it worked. The clutches wear over time, so the calibration adjust the clamp force so the rear wheels get the correct amount of power again- I guess. I bought my car in 2014.
@@janterblanche9328do you have a link to the article? where to enter and calibrate in vcds?
A few notes and questions:
-Clutch pack is available from Audi, about 600-700eur, but this pack didn't look too bad. I've seen some pairs that are fused together.
-Pump is available from both borg warner and Audi, there are also service kits around for much less. Generally the brushes go bad, the pump can be tested with 12V.
-The pump continuously runs when you start the car. Theres also a small pump / actuator inside the control unit with a plunger blocking/allowing the oil to flow and this is what controls AWD, probably that has failed as well.
-You are correct, Audi europe service manual doesn't have a rebuild guide. But I have a Audi USA PDF that has rebuild instructions. There are no measurements for putting the haldex together but there are extensive measurements on the diff-haldex side, otherwise there will be noise when running.
Now the questions:
-Can you mix and match parts from two broken haldex/diff units? Eg clutch and plate pairs?
-Especially, can you mix and match diff and haldex halfs? My mechanic says crown wheel and pinion are "married" with each other and you can't match them, it will be noisy.
I have a broken awd that no longer works on my Audi TT mk1, AWD works on the lift but on the ground the rear wheels don't engage... Haldex fluid was pitch black last time I checked it.
Hello, could you send me this DPF file please? It will help me a lot.
Ewwwww..... that electric motor!!!
Any chance that replacing the pump's motor would've been enough to bring that Haldex back to life, considering the underwhelming amount of metal grinds in the oil and clutch components?
Yep, would have changed the now worthless box to one worth $2k
I've been considering getting a smaller car but I still want awd. My current car has quattro (torsen) and never really requires any service to that system so it's helpful to see how one of these haldex based systems work and what to expect. Thanks!
Just wanted to help out since I had this issue. Like mentioned (and thank you again HumbleMechanic) it could be the pump, but it can also be the haldex controller which was my problem. Though if your haldex clutch packs are bad you can replace them from Powerzone in Europe. I'm sure they'd carry the clutch packs other places as well. Hope this helps someone.
Do you have any links or just the company, google finds nothing.
IM thinking those metal shavings got between the clutches and caused them to drag tripping the computer to sense movement when it should not have any. Not serviceable totally sucks. But a day and the life of newer VWs.
My untuned 2016 MK7 Golf R w DSG had a similar failure at 30,000 miles where my car became FWD only (complete with FWD burnouts when launching the car). Unlike your failure, my dealer said they found a bunch of clutch material in the motor filter as the friction material had disintegrated away from the rings prematurely. I was told that the clutch packs weren't fully compatible with the Haldex, erm, "clutch" fluid. The entire rear diff assembly was replaced under warranty. The outgoing unit was "Rev D" found in 2015 and early 2016 DSG models, and the replacement was Rev G or H.
Great video! Cool to see how it all goes together. Fixed my 2016 R with slipping issues at 40k with replacing the pump and new fluid. Seems like the pumps themselves are causing more issues than the clutch units themselves. Service mine every 20k or so with no issues since. Look forward to the DSG breakdown 💪
How you replace the pump if it isn't serviceable??
@@rkan2 it is servicable, you can change the haldex fluid and clean the filter on the pump. If the pump is actually broken, you can also just put a new one on.
I'm kind of surprised this isn't serviceable, it's just a lighter version of a wet clutch pack that can be found in most tractors for a whole number of applications.
I've had no trouble getting an overhaul kit for the under/over transmission in a 1967 Cockshutt 1750 so it seems kind of ridiculous to me that it's easier to get parts for a 55 year old tractor than it is to even try to get parts to overhaul the AWD on cars that are barely even 15 years old and only seems to need a clutch and pump.
I repair these differentials, replacing all four bearings and four oil seals and thoroughly flush each part as well as the housing, from the inside. And that's not counting the Haldex clutch where there's also one ball bearing and one oil seal. If anyone is interested, please feel free to contact me.
That clutch pack looks pretty much like a motorcycle clutch. In a motorcycle, the engine, the transmission and the clutch are, in most cases, lubricated by the same oil. Glitter in the oil is normal and I see it at every oil drain.
Yeah this doesn't even look that bad? Seems like if the motor were replaced it might work ok again though ideally you'd want to replace the clutchpack...which probably isn't easy to get separately given the "replace the unit" repair protocol. 5th gens do seem a good bit more problematic than the 4th gen units, and interestingly the 4th gen units have a real filter, while the 5th does not. Not sure which engineer(s) decided they don't need a filter in the system, but that wasn't a good move.
My wife’s A3 Quattro 40k miles decided to be FWD last winter, im pretty sure this is a big problem, they need to sell a clutch and pump kit
manteniment?? video plis!! tanks bro
There is no reason for any of those parts not to be available to rebuild the unit. How many motorcycles would be binned, if you couldn't change the clutch...
Great video mate. Nice tear down description. Regards from the UK 🇬🇧
I know I'm abusing FCP's lifetime guarantee, but I replace the pump with every fluid change.
Im not hating on that. They have the policy. LOL
Love these tear down vids. Just a quick request: Are you able to do a feature on the VW/Audi Twin charged 1.4 Engine? It'd be a really cool insight into what was a pretty unique concept for a mainstream drivetrain. Cheers
I’d have to get one from overseas we never got that enonge
@@HumbleMechanic we don't get a lot of cool enonges
@@cumbob you could probably source one using Google or one of the other search enonges
Hopefully the aftermarket will come up with a clutch replacement kit...eventually to keep the Rs on the road, well into the future...
thats why i like the idea of the mk8... goes back to a spool then clutch packs for left and right lol
''it's trash anyway'' Why don't you just clean the metal discs and replace the motor? Or it's probably what you gonna do but not gonna tell anybody and keep this unit for when your car fails. Clever!
haha that's a fairly large stretch.
It’s a hydrostatic pump with pistons on a ramp like in a lawn tractor transmission. For the pump to make pressure it needs super tight piston to bore clearance. Any wear lowers pump pressure letting the clutches slip. That’s why there is was so much brush carbon in the case. Pump is worn out.
Maybe if you replace the pump clean everything and the clean the clutches in think it would be fine, would be great to see though
So basically a clutch and motor replacement and the rear unit would be repaired.
Yes. But there are limited parts, and its probably not cost effective.
@@HumbleMechanic understood, makes you wonder if the higher hp versions like an S5 or S7 might offer a stronger motor to prevent this. It's an opportunity for the aftermarket companies to solve and make money on, I guess.
Torsen AWD ONLY. I'm going straight from Torsen to EV AWD.
Excellent vid on the the Haldex really great job explaining it also ..Thanks
How does wheel size effect this unit? On Subaru's, if the front tires are worn and the rear tires are new, the computer interprets this as front axle slippage and will engage the clutch [partially] in order to try to reduce front axle speed. This leads to premature failure of the rear axle clutch pack.....
This looked like pump failure. Clutches look fine. Clutches can get really bad before they start having clamping issues.
My guess: the motor is bad, so it wasn't clamping as hard as it should. That caused excessive slipping, thus the unusual wear on the clutch disks. I bet a new motor and clutch would have that back to like-new condition.
Can these units be bought rebuilt? This is just like a transmission and differential on any other car. I can't see why these units would not be rebuildable
If you can round up parts I’d assume so. I think finding new parts would be the trickiest part
Volkswagen should be able to deliver the clutch pack because it does not look that hard to replace
Also some one should just make a solide piece where the clutch pack lives for always 4wheel drive🤪
Yeah, stupid simple to make actually... and I have a machine shop...... hmmmmmm....
Hey Charles,
Enjoyed the autopsy!
Two questions. How much hp/tq can one of those units handle?
Is there a high performance aftermarket for that unit?
Thanks.
Charles, what caused this failure? Lack of maintenance, incorrect fluid or a leak? Or did that little electric pump fail? I just want to know to so I can avoid this problem.
It almost seems like hes constantly fixing these Volkswagen instead of using them.
Hahahaha fair point! But I suppose this is the whole point of this channel!: the doom 'n' gloom and the preventative maintenance before things 'kaboom!' unexpectedly 😄
I mean I spent the last 20 years fixing VWs. LOL Plus videos of me "using" the cars I have flop. Videos of me showing how things fail, and how to fix them are much more helpful.
What I saw common too, the module failing with water damage!
Oh dang! I haven't seen that happen. but based on that modules location, id believe it.
@@HumbleMechanic yeah, maybe because we are in ol great Eastern of Canada!🤣
@@HumbleMechanic I have refered a guy in UK to some peoples, for remanufactured module!
@@jessytremblay3867 That would be us! Corrosion in these Haldex controllers is mega big problem depending on your geographic location. Scotland is one of the hardest climates on them.
Hey Charles, do you know wich Haldex gen is equipped in my Touareg? It is a VW Touareg 4.2L V8 FSI 6AT AWD (345 HP) 2007 facelift.
I drive Tiguan 2013. 2.0 TDI (CFFB engine) 4Motion DSG. Until now (before me) it was serviced in unofficial service shop but I'm planning visit to official service soon.
In last service check of the car my current mechanic said to me that he feels to much play in drive shaft coming to rear Haldex (it is about 10 degrees of rotation). He don't repair Haldex part of the car but he think that so much free play is not good.
Is this normal or is it a problem and what could be the problem?
Im in the market for a Golf R, but most of what I find doesn’t have any records of the Haldex service, is that something that I should stay away from? Most of the ones I find have 80-95k miles in them and no Haldex service. Or will I be better off with a GTI instead of a golf R. I don’t plan on tracking the car or tuning it in any way.
The lack of warning of awd failure in haldex system is not justified. You get warnings for other not-so-important problems, like egr slow opening speed. If the haldex communicates, you are at least prevented about the fwd tracrion only state. And, the other issue, the 3 yrs no miles haldex oil interval. Some people drive a lot, like more than 100k, in 3 yrs. Some drive in harsh conditions (that s the purpose of awd, no?). Also they don't include with the dealers instructions the cleaning of the pump, which manymany people have encountered as compulsory, in some vehicles.
My rear diff blew up at 70mph with a violent jolt (one of the tapered roller bearings obliterated itself and cracked the diff open as it did so), very soon after my Haldex oil was changed. Working theory is the specialist garage may have drained the diff accidentally (there's even a TSB about this very thing, so it must not be uncommon), given the tone sounded different after the service. I even took it back to them before it blew saying it sounded wrong, but they sent me on my way.
I have a 2008 S3 8P. This is the 2nd Haldex failing on my car. The last failure made rear wheels to lockup completely while going at 160km/h on Autobahn.
I was on the left lane, had to pull to right in under 100 meters. Otherwise all the cars at the back crash from behind. Was lucky, I was able to save the car from a crash.
But it gives no warning on dash, no whining sound of gears, no jerkiness. Everything seems fine, then rear wheels mechanically lock up.
If it happened while I was turning at high speed, it would spin or crash at the hands of the most experienced racing driver. Nothing can disengage rear wheels. We had the same lockup in another 2018 model S3 too. I think the design required to be changed. In case of a failure, it shouldn't mechanically lock the wheels.
But it happened 2 times on a 8P car, once in a 8V car. I think it may have killed many people, but it would be very hard to explain what happened after a catastrophic car crash, that your rear wheels locked up. And if the driver is living, will tell you this. But it may be hard to prove it in the court.
I think Borgwarner needs to take these units back. Change the design with a safe unit. May cost billions though.
hi charles i have a 2007 a3 8pa can you tell me if it has immo3 or immo 4 and is it worth the effort to convert to awd cheers from down under
*me worried af because I just picked up a tuned 2015 S3 with no AWD working 😅☠️
New pump arrives Monday and I hope to goodness that's the issue. Car is less than two weeks ownership 😮
Quick question: Can I use MoS2 additive in manual gearbox which uses ATF fluid? '93 Mercedes 124
If its a common problem it shocks me that the aftermarket (or dealerships) do not have kits for it. Also if the clutch packs often dislike power why not have a puck set that turns it from sometime all wheel drive to permanent all wheel drive and get rid of the issue?
You can get an insert for the old haldex system like what’s in the mk1 Audi TT and mk4 R32, but it’s unusable on the road as it turns the car into full time 4wd, not awd.
Ah, the wonders and joy of ‘modern automotive repairs’
Basic Information: Nope, not available
Repair Guides: Nope, not available
Repair Parts: Nope, not available
the most GARBAGE system used by VAG ..Ever! Not to mention it is an "Permanent FWD" type of "awd", which is VERY SHITTY especially for some SUV as tiguan or q3.
I'd just like to interject-- you keep saying Haldex, but technically the correct terminology is GNU/Haldex. I've taken to actually referring to it as GNU plus Haldex.
Couldn't you show what order the parts in the pump are supposed to go in? Just doing rhat service myself but can't figure out the right way
Ohhhhhh man, I remember when mine went........ Pump wasn't serviced by the previous owner, filter basket was clogged badly...... Such terrible terrible noises......
I bought a Ford. I can't say that its much better, but ground clearance and a traditional rear diff and transfer case lets me sleep easier at night.....
Oooooh to have a Haldex pump that doesn't have the prop shaft flange in the way of its removal (unlike provided by f@#£whit Ford).
It's such a dick move that's not considered a repairable part... First of all, it's very wasteful when it comes to materials and energy. Also, it's a lot more expensive to buy a complete unit when it seems very reasonable to refurb them.
That clutch pack FOR SURE should be a part you can buy, cleaning out that system, replacing the motor and replacing the clutch pack should make it like new.
My mom had a 2012 Tiguan she bought new and the Haldex failed around 22000 Km. It was fixed under warranty, after a good fight with the dealer. Dealer in Costa Rica was really a bad one. It has improved a lot in the recent years. I believe it was the pump that failed so the car was basically a FWD instead of a AWD. How she noticed it? When she stopped and start the front wheels will spin. No warning lights or nothing else to let her know something was wrong.
And you're telling me this just before my 2000 miles trip
I can smell that motor from my house 😂
Very cool to see this teardown. The mechanical side seems pretty robust.
LOL!!! yeah this is a weird one. Id doesn't seem like that little of an issue should cause no AWD.
Wow! I've always wanted to see how it actually worked. Thanks!
I had my rear diff go out on my 19 Sportwagen with 37k. Strong smell of gear oil but no leaks. Rear wheels locked up. They replaced the whole rear. They said the Haldex was fine. About $6k. Under warranty
I had a mishap when changing the haldex fluid. I unbolted the wrong bolts to pull out the pump and loosened the ground haldex wire by mistake from the screw and did not ground it back properly. After the fluid change started hearing rear clunking at low speed turns. And vibrating when launching. Ended up purchasing new pump that fixed the clunking but vibration on a launch stil persisted. 10 months later vibrating on launch lessened but still present depending how hard I launch. Fml anyway but still drives and pulls.
Will you posting a video soon on how to reassemble and set backlash on these?
Please do an 02s teardown and rebuild , gearbox from a Audi A3 8p FSI non turbo or 1.8t ,or golf 5,jetta 5 fsi non turbo
My sister 2015 a3 2.0t quatro is not powering the rear weels. Should i start with replacing the motor first? Fluid looks good.
If the haldex motor or clutches fail, would there be any harm in just welding the haldex connection so it's a constant 50/50 AWD?
Can somebody tell me gear ratio of this S3 Golf R differential that HumbleMachanic just disassable?
Being a vw tech this is so interesting to see how the cars we love and work on come apart and work
A couple of Ex VAG mechanics have independently of each other said to me that most of the time on the 5 its the pump that fails and the metal is from inside the pump. One of them said unless you never service it and kick the arse out of it the diffs last for ever. Both said the pumps are complete shite. A quick polish of the clutch plates on this one and a new pump and seals and she’ll be good to go.
So am I the only one looking at this and thinking the actual BW unit was ok, and they missed just replacing the pump motor and possibly flushing the fluid?
Yeah I was thinking that, with any kind of clutch packs you will have certain amount of sparkles in the fluid as they are used
That is something that could bee a chance tested as a home mechanic working on your own car. BUT look at the clutch parts again, worn surfaces and metal embedded into the friction discs - that repair wouldn't have lasted, perhaps not worked properly at all. No flushing would solve those issues.
If the car was on it's way to the wrecker anyway and the customer just needed to squeeze out another couple of months perhaps a mechanic worth his dime would do it (but then running it in 2WD would make more sense mostly).
Great video humble as usual but can’t you point me in the right direction on what’s a good solution to clean the outside of the haldex, bought a used one and it’s full of axel grease and crude lol
Grumble mutter.... That a so complex part, made up by things like friction discs (that IS a wear part with limited life) "isn't serviceable" according to VAG should be criminal. And the lack of a proper filter.
Greedy *censored* car manufacturers.
Mine stopped working on my 2016 Golf R on the later end of 60k miles and I replaced the pump. The pump didn't fix the issue so the dealer ended up replacing the entire assembly under an extended warranty.
heck yea for warranty. LOL
@@HumbleMechanic The reason I ended up doing the pump myself was their initial hesitancy to recognize that there was an AWD error. After the 3rd try, I decided to just replace the pump to see if that would cure it. Unfortunately it didn’t work, so after 2 more trips to the dealer with the fault code, they finally decided to replace it:)
The lack of serviceable vehicle components and repair parts is shameful. These components were assembled and should be readily disassembled for a rebuild. The right to repair laws that are being considered, which industry is vigorously opposing, may change the repair industry, but it will be slow in coming. Example, Porsche will not rebuild a failed PDK, $20K for a replacement and they will not make parts available if you wanted to rebuild one, so your point on keeping up with the maintenance or shortening the intervals when used in severe conditions is spot on. Only problem is getting owners to actually do it. As usual, great video.
This is the auto industry. Its sad that so much is not serviceable.
PRODIGY HumbleMechanic
Loved it From the start to finish
Thank you very much HumbleMechanic
Take care and have a great day HumbleMechanic
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Yummy looks like brush chunks from the magnets around the copper coiling
So in theory you should be able to upgrade/replace those clutches like you would a manual clutch if your car has a ton of miles.
YES! Now what I don't know is, who would make those upgraded clutches.
If its just clutch failure from more power then the need is probably just parts and a thicker or tighter tolerance. Or better parts to factory tolerance. Couple hundred dollars worth maybe.
People are running a 1000hp in heavy rs3's on standard clutches. But you can also buy upgraded clutch packs
@@HumbleMechanic there's already about 4 companies making upgraded clutch packs.
@@garyhowe88 NICE! I haven't really looked into it. glad to know there are companies getting it done. Its probably a somewhat common part in the automotive world.
In theory could you weld the clutchpack together and by doing that achieve permament awd
Hello, on my golf 7r defferential cogwheels broken completely... Is it possible becasue the mechanic used wrong oil in it or its common problem ??
My.question is, why do these clutch Packs not wear a lot if they always slip. Because the haldex system isnt always fu!ly open or closed.
You think the Mexican pizza is good, you gotta try the grilled cheese burrito. Yummy.
Can you delete the electrical and make it into a full working differential. Seems pretty barbaric I know.
As a diy, It might be worth a shot to strip it down flush it out and throw a motor on it, curious how long it would last if you just threw a motor on it and a flush
So how does it control the level of clutch slip? 😮
Does it just pump oil into the clutch housing to press the disks together and controlls it via how much oil pressure there is?
Love my golf r's, but this is the reason I got rid of em. They require too much pampering.
No cat ass trophy 😢
This generation of Haldex has the pump running as long as the engine is running. This causes wear on the brushes, and the dust from the brushes blends with the oil and causes wear on the clutches.
The last generation has a different pump design and is actually completely off when 4x4 is not active.
ah ha! so that's how they blew up my whole hadlex unit the fkers lol. by putting clutch oil in the diff chamber lol.
Pretty sure the pump was the only thing wrong with this whole unit. Could have been a cheap fix
lol, all fine but the replaceable motor....... but swap whole thing anyways....
So charles would u say the ols haldex from r32s etc are better than the new 1z. Or shud i say stronger
Only question: Why did you keep looking to your right? I've never noticed you do that before in your vids. Something burning on the stove? Haha...
Cool vid, as always, Charles!
"Where's the Kaboom? There was supposed to be a Haldex-Shattering Kaboom!"