Herodotus on the Edge of the World // 440 BC // Ancient Greek Primary Source
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2019
- Here we have some musings from the proto-historian Herodotus in his inimitable style.
Speaking to us from two and a half thousand years ago, Herodotus regales us with his knowledge of the furthest corners of that ancient world; on the very edge of his society's understanding of the time - all the way from India in the east to a little island in the cold and windy north that was an excellent source of tin...
How do we actually know about history? Voices of the Past is a channel dedicated to recreating the original accounts from the people who lived through events, or who lived far closer to them than we do today. We do this word for word, with an accompanying soundtrack of rousing music and images.
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Biology major Herodotus just was not 🤔
Thanks for the upload, guy. Great channel
Are you going to do more videos on Herodotus?
Yes! Open to suggestions 😁
Since we got Herodotus, I think it's only fitting to also get Thucydides here.
Maybe the famous part about the siege of Melos, anything involving Alcibiades or the part where Thucydides describes his own failure at Amphipolis (That last one mainly so I can be a smartass and quote a poem by Zbigniew Herbert inspired by it). Seriously though, any part of the History of the Peloponnesian War would do.
Greek Sailor: So what's this incense for?
Arabian merchant: Uh.. it's great to keep the winged snakes away!
Greek Sailor: Which winged snakes? I'm not seeing any..
Arabian merchant: That's how you know the incense is good!
Greek Sailor: "alright, makes sense"
Lisa I would like to BUY your rock...
This comment is so funny 👏
Sounds like Arabic merchants in NYC lol
@Tarik Hodzic *modern day people*: hummm... Sell me all your essential oils!
I think it's funny that he expresses greater uncertainty about Britain that he does about winged serpents, lionesses giving birth only once, etc.
He didn't want to tell us about the secret of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow... he was writing under leprechaun coertion of some sort, I'm sure.
he was just being modest is all. lol
It's probably due to the trade in his time. He probably saw winged serpents/cobras at the market or somewhere else.
Luis Aldamiz he didn’t want to mess up British tourism after brexit
in that regard hes on the same page with the whole soon-to-be-ex Great Britain
Boy, those ancient sailors were really pulling his leg.
I've a whale of a tale to tell you lad! A whale of a tale or twooo!
I was thinking the same thing 😆
They were trying to sell him fairly mundane goods at extortionate prices, so he asked why these goods were so expensive. They cooked up a bunch of tall tales about winged serpents and lily-white Ethiopians to justify their prices.
@@vulpesinculta3238 that seems reasonable to me. Mistranslated or misunderstood would also be a reasonable assumption.
Amongst other things
7:00 "My dealer won't tell me where he gets it."
@Artur M. Hahah *It’s Tinland!*
Hahaha, funny to see humans haven't changed a bit in the past 3000 years. :D
Arabians: Don't be stealing from our spice trees, now
Everyone: Lol, why not?
Arabians: Flying snakz
There are gliding snakes in asia not sure if they ever lived in arabia. "Chrysopelea, more commonly known as the flying snake or gliding snake, is a genus that belongs to the family Colubridae. Flying snakes are mildly venomous, though the venom is dangerous only to their small prey. Their range is in Southeast Asia, southernmost China, India, and Sri Lanka."
Good meme sir well done.
@@maydaverave Just looked this up, and it is both amazing, and terrifying.
Flap Flap Hisssss.
Title of a horror movie we never got to see because they didn't have movies back then.
Oh well...
the world must have seemed so mystical back then.
Yes, the wonder and mystery off it all.
A bit of a loss to mankind surely,...but a new frontier awaits.
@@thatdutchguy2882 I mean.... you can choose to be ignorant and believe bullshit if it really means that much to you...
Yeah we're still plagued by fantasy today. They call it religion
DrewLSsix I’m sure he’s lamenting the perceived loss of wonder at the world. Not that modern people are more knowledgeable.
Yup, when nobody from your country have travelled furether than europe and can only believe what merchants tell them, you start believing wierd stuff for sure, especially when you don't really have engouth knowledge yet to understand everything.
I mean, if some bizzare merchant dude comes from an unexplored part of the world and tells you that there are flying snakes, you believe him for sure
Greek merchant: Why is this frankincense so expensive? It’s just powder. I think you’re ripping me off.
Arabian merchant: No, it’s expensive because it’s very difficult to get. I’m barely making any profit, trust me
Greek merchant: How so?
Arabian merchant: Uhhh... Winged snakes
Greek merchant: Seems legit
Arabians were blacks back then. AL’LAT was worshipped first in arabia before allah. Alluza was the other name for her. Ethiopians were in arabia by the millions. Beheading white arabs with the kopesh sword.
It took me a while to realize that the "wool that grows on trees" is cotton.
Edit: As Mike D pointed out bellow, Herodotus could be referring to silk (although is more common to China than India). Another video on this channel shows Pliny the Elder, famous Roman historian, referring to silk as "wool found in forests", while describing Serica (northern China).
Source: ua-cam.com/video/vCSZQj8yvD4/v-deo.html
I didn't realize it until I read this.
Or, silk from silk worm cocoons. The worms were a closely guarded secret. So, it could be forgiven if the process is misunderstood.
I think the winged dragons are dragon flies
@@tylerdurden3722
Good point
@Evi1M4chine Since I remember reading that cotton was native to Asia, I went looking for it and it seems it's actually native to both southern Asia and the Americas.
Look he was a historian not a biologist.
Meanings changes throughout the ages... during those times people had more than one professions... and observation like this is connected to history
🤣🙌🏽
JUAN CRUSHER winged was somewhat accurate when first seeing a rattler
How tf would lions survive if every female only had one cub? That's just ignorant... Not all lions are female so it's an ever decreasing population...
He was no historian; he was a fantasist.
Do you think that the winged serpent he talks about is a Cobra?
That's an excellent question! That was my first thought besides Quetzalcoatl.
Maybe possibly some exinct animal located in arabia
@@Kinghassz A snake with wings? It's much more likely that he misunderstood, mistranslated or was mislead about them don't you think?
he called it "Ethiopian Serpent".
No Name yeah lol probably though it was a few thousand years ago so its possible its some extinct animal but im just saying its possible not likely
Herodotus: Cinnamon is delivered to Arabia by magic birds
Also Herodotus: Dude, a river flowing into the north sea and tin islands? Seems implausible
And interestingly, since he meant 'an amber river' the closest match could likely be Vistula... with Carpathian mountains at its source not seeming to be even that far away from Hellas!
If there's one thing I learned from watching Historytime, it's that the ancient mediterranean had a lot more trade with northern Europe that I'd thought.
Your father was a neanderthal caveman walking on all fours when these black ethiopians ruled the globe sir. Don’t you know ethiopians ruled arabia? Began india too. Hindu kushites. Naga kushites began asian race. You weren’t out of the cave yet to use the wheel the ethiopian invented. You must know your history quit joking around.
"The moon, it is said, is made of cheese, and the sun, for what it is, of orange juice." - Herodotus
But I can not say with certainty
@Robinson Pittman No one knew shit about what the sun was made of back then. It's a gravitationally bound continuous fusion reaction. No one remotely understood that until the past few hundred years.
Idk, do you need to understand physics at all to make the "its not cheese" hypothesis? I guess it depends on your view of the time period, i think i agree they could know what wasnt cheese, without anything other than having eaten cheese. Its the eternal cheese question that still haunts us. Is cottage cheese really cheese? I have my doubts.
@Robinson Pittman damn dude, your really telling me Africans back in the bc time knew the sun wasn't made of cheese? Next your gonna say Santa Claus isn't real
@@gtassa01 I had an English elective in college, and we read something that was written by Neil DeGrasse Tyson. In it, he said that the sun was white, which it is. And this one girl in the class got super upset about it being said that the sun is white... A direct quote I'll never forget, "But how could we know it's white if we've never been there?"
I'm a physics major... I nearly had a stroke.
This section does make Herodotus look bad, however many parts of the Histories are quite accurate and often all we have as a primary source. Take For example, his survey of the Scythians. The Histories is probably one of the most valuable texts to have come down to us! Respect for the father of history 😀
You have to cut the man some slack. He had no way of knowing that there are no such things as winged serpents. The Greeks thought that the monkeys of India were small dwarf men when they first went there. If orangutans are real, why not winged snakes? It was a world where magic was real in everyone's mind.
He's also know as "the father of LIES"
Yeah, especially considering how limited information was at that time I can absolutely see why he might believe some of the more outlandish stuff because, hey, our world is pretty weird when you think about it so why would a flying serpent seem any weirder in the eyes of an ancient person who doesn't know what gravity is or what micro organisms are?
The jokes about Herodotus were funny at first but now it's starting to feel like people genuinely think he was stupid.
@@johanneswestman935 he might have meant gliding snakes though
@@chadthundercock3440 Aye he might. He might also have meant dinosaur fossils, we will never know. Herodotos mentions in the beginning of his musings how what he writes is what he has heard from travelers and it is up to the reader to make up his mind about whether it is true or not.
Pure delight. More Herodotus please.
Herodotus: Yeah so lionesses only give birth once in their lifetime. You see the cub completely destroys the womb by the time he's born.
Also Herodotus: I ain't so sure about these "tin islands" people tell me are out by the western edge of Europe. Not so sure about talk of a sea being beyond Europe either. I mean, you can't believe everything sailors and merchants tell you, you know.
Clearly a historian rather than a biologist or geographer.
Gideon Jones And the whole flying snake thing lmao
Ancient traders used to compete with each other to tell the most outlandish stories in order to protect the sources of their merchandise.
All these people criticize this guy but in case they arent keeping score, Herodotus was right about everything he said on the Pyramids when every "expert" said he was crazy and it was impossible. So far he is beating the experts in the game of historical accuracy. In fact the experts now use his writings as a guide on what to look for in the pyramids. So think twice before you throw insults at the reigning champ
Trenton Ghorley Present day History, especially Egyptology is based on European bias ... this is why it’s hard for them to except Herodotus truth telling.
@@saedmohamud9663 because herodotus the greek wasnt european... right
@@coitip2920 we wuz kangz an shiet, meanwhile "the Ethiopians are the fairest of all men" lmao you can't make this up.
As someone from Tin Island, my advice is never to forget your Winged Serpent spray when travelling in Arabia!
Man the Arabs really didn't want them to figure out most spices came from India. "Yeah it's all produced by us in our country and the process is difficult so that is why the price is high. Yeah, really difficult. There's winged snakes and mountains with cinnamon bird's nests."
@ by the Roman times they knew that the spices came from India
Indeed many things of what the Arabs traded came from India. But at the same time many things were exported from the Arabian peninsula itself.... The Arabian peninsula is much more than a desert it has a veru long and high mountain range... There was the south Arabian civilizations in Yemen were the land was so fertile and developed water irrigation systems & dams were constructed.
Wouldn’t lions go extinct real quick if they could only have one child?
Let's say you start out with 100 lions in generation 1, 50 male, 50 female.
The 50 females, that's what you need to take as a baseline, because they're the bottleneck here. Regardless of who the fathers of the cubs are, there are at best 50 lions in generation 2, 25 males and 25 females. This means generation 3 is capped at 25 lions, 12 or 13 males, 12 or 13 females. Let's say, for the sake of convenience, that generation 3 consists of 13 males and 12 females. That makes generation 4 consist of 6 males and 6 females, generation 5 of 3 males and 3 females, and by generation 6 or 7 you've reached the end of the line for that species of lion.
@@vulpesinculta3238 we should calculate how long they would survive if the male to female ratio was different, maybe 1 male to 9 females?
Yeah, I think he was lyin'. About the lion.
Mike D he was likely misled
@New_Account he's smarter than you
Brilliant! Fascinating to hear how people saw the "edges of the world" and think about how these wild accounts came to be - misconceptions due to language or tales to amaze foreigners with? That closing quote rings true indeed.
Misconceptions perhaps, but also beautiful poetic descriptions! Winged serpents: cobras, wool on trees, silk))
I venture to say some humans' understandings of the world nowadays are perhaps even less than that of Herotodus from over two thousand years ago.
But flatearthers and creationists apart... would you say your statement holds?
@@LuisAldamiz anti-vaxxers, essential oil peddlers and homeopathic remedy enthusiasts come to mind.
@@NoName-fc3xe hahahaha
@@LuisAldamiz Only flat earthers etc?
Ok, ok, guys. But apart from watering, santitation, wine, law and order, roads and peace... what have the Romands made for us?! ;)
To be fair he got 3 things right 1) Snakes do lay eggs (though he said venomous ones don't and that's incorrect) 2) amber did come from the north! 3) Britain did have tin!
Snakes with wings, Cobras?
Some snakes are viviparous
He's actually right, the real venomous ones don't lay eggs. They're called humans.
Herodotus:
Flying serpents, lions that give birth once a lifetime, spice trees, cinnamon aeries: seems legit.
Atlantic Ocean: Bullshit!
Let me tell you about where they get cinnamon from.. (takes a couple of honks on his crack pipe )...
"there are GREAT birds..."
LOL!
Ancient writer from any culture about any other culture: "It's basically an open air goldmine, there's gold...literally everywhere. Gold I said, gold! Some silk...but mostly GOLD!"
It's remarkable that the Greeks benefited from an extensive trade network that brought them gold, tin, frankincense, etc., without having any definite idea of where it came from.
To be fair, how many people buy things from stores with no thought of the extensive creation and journey said object went through to arrive on the shelf?
@@labrynianrebel Yes, but people "in the know" today know where foreign products come from. Herodotus was a prominent scholar of his time and yet relied on myths and wild stories. Just imagine living in a world where you think the best perfumes and spices come from a land infested with flying snakes and gold-digging ants. Antiquity was a wild time!
I finally get the Tin joke in History of The Entire World I Guess
Same
Holy crap lmao
The Father of History ladies and gentlemen!
The father of fables and lies!
@@LuisAldamiz He's trying his best, my friend
@@jacobvanderhoeven1008 - I know, I know. It's easy to mock his relative ignorance, especially after listening to his ideas about the far "ends of the world".
"Artur M. Yes, as you say, "The Father of History". But the father of *scientific* history is his fellow Greek of a later generation, Thucydides.
To this day all historians can be roughly classified as either following the style of history of Herodotus or of Thucydides. So when you see those admiring semi-autobiographical books with titles like "An American Caesar", you are looking at a book written more in the style of Herodotus. But when you read one by Niall Ferguson, you are dealing with one in the style of Thucydides.
Artur M.
Nope. Sumerians are the fathers of history because they invented the written language.
I love how a lot of comments are making fun of him while you can hardly even read a map. It's easy to seem smart when everyone figured everything out for you already.
Come on people, put yourselves in his shoes. No telivision, no internet, no phone, cars, planes hardly any writings or even people who can read and write.
He has had to rely heavily on word of mouth, cut him some slack lol
Hadnt seen earth from space
Greeks of herodotus' time: India is the edge of the world
Greeks of 1 AD: THERES A PLACE CALLED CHINA!
You should do Herodotus on the circumnavigation of "Libya", it's fascinating
6:34 Ethiopians are tallest and *fairest?* He must mean "pleasing to the eye or mind especially because of fresh, charming, or flawless quality".
7:58 If your region had a lot of amber... you wouldn't think it rare!!
If you want a suggestion, I think the "Depopulation of Greece" in book 37 of Polybius is very poignant.
Did they perhaps mistake some kind of large insect for a "Flying Snake"? A large Dragon Fly could appear that way or a large wasp. The act of keeping them away with incense makes that sound even more likely.
Locusts
I like to think his really weird ideas reached him from foreigners who were just screwing with whatever Greeks asked questions lol
All these old journals always seem to have a shred of truth. Dragon tales came from dinosaur bones. Kirin were giraffes. Wool plants are cotton. Lions do certainly breed less than rabbits and have a messy afterbirth, if not only once in their life. (still wondering about the dog-headed men)
Makes me wonder where the kernel of truth is to those winged snakes.
If reproduction is anything to go by, it sounds like some kind of insect he's describing.
Or if we interpret more loosely, it's a snake that practices cannibalism, if not specifically sexual cannibalism, is either viviparous or Ovoviviparous, while also having something that implies flight or wings, and of course native to arabia.
King cobra eat other snakes...
When did Arabia grow spices🙄
The winged snakes are clearly a story invented by the traders to justify the price of their goods. The Arabs likely didn't have a great deal to trade and not significant volume of any of it, small fibs insured they did well regardless.
As for the cynecophali, perhaps you're tossing out the possibility that dog headed men did exist. The accounts are outlandish but I think we're often led to believe the past was less interesting than it actually was. Tolkein did always claim the lord of the rings was based on real ancient history. We aren't really meant to believe history started 6,000 years ago with fully formed civilizations complete with mastery of writing, mastery of megalithic stone construction, monetary system, metalworking, militaries, and an endless amount of other intricacies that would take a lifetimes to develop. You'd have to be a fool to believe it all just popped out of nowhere. the history is either lost, concealed, or a mixture of both. I imagine civilization likely waxes and wanes over time. After all plumbing was invented, lost, and reinvented 4 times in recorded history with Minoans, Phoenicians, Romans, and the modern era.
Were there really men with the heads of dogs? I doubt it. Were there men who looked like the had heads of dogs? It's more possible than you might think. If they never developed farming, or did much later, they'd likely have significantly more prognathism. That paired with still being hairy like an ape would result in a somewhat dog-like appearance. Could a hominid like that have existed? Why not?
Herodotus wasn't good at math if he thought lionesses could only have 1 cub in their life.
The tin island is Cornwell
Cornwall is an Island?
That is all 100% correct, Herodotus. Good work, let's get a beer.
This is what happens when "oh yes that makes sense" replaces "we should actually observe and test our ideas".
Interesting that they can know about and possess the spices and metals, know something about where they came from and how, but not know anyone who has ever been there, or if those places these things came from even truly existed. That disconnect, there's a story there I'd wager. Cool show Voices, thanks :)
well, if there's 7 merchants between the source and end point, you might be able to trace back through three, maybe four of them, but past that... you just knew it came from very far away from some exotic land
@@kainshannarra2451 ; good point.
Brilliant read, thanks mate!
This is just a quick note: when Herodotus refers to ‘Ethiopians’ as ‘fair’, that does not necessarily mean pale skinned. ‘Fair’ more likely means ‘attractive’, especially given that ‘Ethiopia’ can roughly translate as ‘Land of Burnt Skin’.
Indeed. Fair is just an English translation, and in English the word "fair" has these two meanings. Herodotus uses the word καλλίστους which means "most beautiful".
@Captain Cook clearly Mohammed was a hater
It is kind of funny though how you (with your channel content) are very quick to make sure everybody knows that they don't mean "pale" when the vast majority of English speakers will know that "fair" has multiple meanings, and they'd realise which was appropriate in the context ^^ If he was talking somewhat positively about a people, he couldn't have meant "pale" or "white" as we all know that's an insult
@@tommeakin1732 with old(?) translations of very old texts relating a lot of hearsay like this, it can actually be very unclear. dude thought Arabs had to fight winged serpents to get frankincense, it wouldn't be weird if he thought there was a kingdom of tall, pale Methuselahs living in distant Africa
@Captain Cook Greeks and Romans thought Ethiopians beautiful. Concubines from there were sought after. Mohammed's view is neither here nor there, since he came around some 800 years later
This is gold thank you
Delightful video. Curious eh ?
But comes to a quite logical conclusion.
Really enjoyed this one.
1:28 I think he's talking about Cobras... Their hood could be mistaken for "wings".
Very interesting, thank you!
Obvious that the winged snakes would be cobras.
Enrique Lescure well they were said to fly and his is not the only account, so no
The tin was from Cornwall (Britain)
Wonderful work
Tfw you weave a fantastical story about how cinnamon is gathered, just to make a fat profit from it, and every foreigners just eat it up.
Really nice.
I kind of have a feeling that people lied about the processes of producing things like cinnamon, so as to keep the process for doing so secret and in monopoly.
and prices high
That's crazy talk, Bub. Never believe them furriners!
Really enjoyed it. Can you please make a video on herodotus talking about cyrus the great, please?
Thanks 😊😊
[claims of the existence of griffins]
Herodotus: ...
[claims of the existence of one-eyed men who steal gold from griffins]
Herodotus: "One eye? Okay. Whatever, dude."
What is he talking about when he mentions wool grown on trees? Is this some misunderstanding of cottonwoods?
silk worm larvae only on Mulberry trees.
@@BoqPrecision ah, that makes more sense, thanks!
His description of rice in India always makes me laugh
Cotton surely
it could be silk
What would be the connection between Dionysus and cinnamon? I’m used to hearing it for wine or, arguably, psychedelics, but cinnamon being related to that most mysterious god seems strange.
Seán Patrick Eckmann he traveled the distant lands and learned the secrets of their spices in his youth
Whole Lion's Uterus is gonna be my new band name
Arabs were making fragrence before the french stopped dieing of stench.
@@michaeldiebold8847 i wonder how many people died for you to right this comment?
@@abunoqtah5453 6.....no 7...or was it 6? Shit. I'm pretty sure its 7. So, the answer is 7.
The Arabs wipe their ass with their bare hands.
@@friedtaters2856
We use water, I am pretty sure it is a cleaner way than using toilet paper😉
It is hilarious . But what is even funnier is that our descendants will be laughing just as much at us , and our assumptions .
Sounds like Game of throne books.
The great Herodotus sounds more like a literature professor than anything else; he narrates with an elaborate style and not given into shortcuts. But without the Father of History, large portions of ancient History would be nightmarish riddles for modern-day historians...
Look on the bottom left on the map at 0:18. You see how it says Atlantes in North Africa?, if you have not seen the video about how Atlantis is probably in the eye of the Sahara by Bright Inside, check it out. Im just saying that its kinda weird how no one is talking about this in this map.
Edit: Bright InSIGHT not BrightINSIDE, my bad.
Keep in mind that it says "Atlantes". It seems to have been a name for the people there. Notice how "Ethiopes" is on the map too.
I am interesthing how this book survive so long?
India sounds GREAT
Music at the end sounds like Tangerine Dream’s score of the dancing dress scene from the movie Legend.
That was easily the weirdest chunk of Histories, but it’s the only part I’m probably going to remember in the coming years.
Lol the Arabian troll who told him this is great
It was me.
Can you do a video on Herodotus visiting the pyramids at Giza and the temples along the Nile?
Herodotus - the original shitposter.
winged serpent = angry cobra
BRB! On a quest to the outer lands for all things best and rarest!
how do they get the exact voices of historic people?
Amazing
Let me ass you a question . What do you suppose an ardvark would have to say about clams ?
When this was written, the Peloponnesian War was wreaking havoc across the Greek world.
The view of the natural world quite like the Greek.
Clearly this is proof the Earth is flat
Yup
I for one think the people living on the bottom side must be interesting creatures, it is said they go through life backwards, starting as old men at birth and eventually growing backwards till nothing but spooge remains. Fascinating, i say, jolly good show!
Thanks
only discovering the classics now
Nice lion and uterus story !
6:33 "these people are tallest and fairest"
Fairest people in a Ethiopia?
May be he was talking metaphorically like kind people or something
I like picturing, in the year 6000AD, some loser descendant of mine lying on his bed with a bag of junk food at 2AM binging hologram videos, watching a narrated excerpt from a Stephen Hawking novel and thinking "lol people didn't know shit about the world back in the day"
Shared
Yet naturally so should a people deem the exotic 'best' and 'rarest'.
Everyone here needs to remember one thing; Herodotus never actually says he visited any of these places. He is recording third hand information and he clearly takes it with a pinch of salt.
You should read more Procopiuses works, he gives a good image of 6th century life
Although I appreciate the effort, this is not the best of Herodotus. He did have a penchant for just repeating wild stories but a great deal of his corpus of work is great history. This small sample is what Noam Chomsky would take and say something like: "much of the alleged history of Western Civilization is great deception if you examine the works of Herodotus. Much of his work is fantasy and we can thus infer that his history is equally fantastical. "
Of course he employs numerous fallacies but people still think he is a genius.
Herodotus would have called him a Sophist. Scratch that, those vipers were more of a phenomenon in the time of Thucydides.
Noam Chomsky can't write a readable paragraph.
one cub once in a lifetime....sounds legit :-D
I love to learn about the Ancients' untainted immignations.
"It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there."
I love how people are so quick to dismiss old tales about flying serpents etc. Yet they can’t use the same critical thinking to dismiss things the government says and they’re the real liars. People of the past were not idiots and had no reason to lie. He seemed quite certain serpents flew.
Imagine modern history of the east and other places of the world other than Europe being derived from such accounts!
Where can i get one of those garment trees?
cotton, or silk
@@kainshannarra2451 silk baby!!!
Whose translation is this?
Wow, i didnt know you could gather cinnamon like that