The Hater's Guide to SawStop
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- I have been thinking about SawStop and its patent for a long time. I used to think that they shouldn't have it all to themselves. But, after doing a lot of research and thinking about this, I've concluded about the whole SawStop patent controversy. This video is not sponsored. Some product links are Amazon and other affiliate links, meaning if you buy something, we'll receive a small commission. This helps support my channel so I can continue to make content like this.
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This has got to be a joke? Buy the saw stop if you want the technology. If you don't buy the saw stop then you clearly do not care about the safety expense.
I personally hold several patents and see both sides of the debate. Benjamin Franklin held an interesting prospective. His most famous invention was the lightning rod which was credited with saving numerous lives. Franklin was a prolific inventor, but never held a patent. In his autobiography it says “That, as we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously“.
@@roberthenry5657 Glad to serve others is one thing but a video implying that the inventor is greedy is something entirely different. Forced voluntarism is just wonderful.
Please make something........get back to the vids that got me to subscribe to you in the first place....
@@roberthenry5657 sadly society has monetised everything. The benevolence of some of our fore fathers, is sadly invisible nowadays! In every facet of society, public servants (who chose to serve people in multiples of roles) are castigated for the slightest mistake; peoples first thought when something goes wrong is blaming someone, suing someone. Just two examples, sadly, that has twisted society to what it is today. And that's not to speak of the rate of this increase! Social media!
And yet - here we are, having the opportunity to discuss- through the very same vehicle, that accelerates all of the above. Oh, the irony! 😂
When it was time to upgrade to a new tablesaw in 2010, I wrestled with the added cost of flesh saving technology that SawStop offered. At that time, I had been using tablesaws for 40 years without any accidents. What convinced me, was the cost of medical bills. At that time, an amputation started at $25K before insurance. So viewing the extra cost of the SawStop as a one time insurance premium, the economics of the saw became clear. 10 years later I had an accident, and a bandaid was all the medical expense needed with no permanent damage to my hand! My 3 HP professional cabinet SawStop is a very good saw, equal to any Powermatic, Jet, or Delta cabinet saws I’ve used. Totally worth the extra cost!
Bridget, thank you for a succinct and cogently reasoned support of the Saw Stop! I do not know why there is a need to defend even the basic protective function, but there we have it, humans can just be irrational despite the best efforts of evolution.
The most safety conscious person I know had a table saw accident. Even though it was just the tip of their finger, it was a hell of a reminder that anyone can have an accident.
Currently I am just not buying a tablesaw, as I am way too clumsy and I wouldn't use it enough to have a saw stop make sense.
I was hoping to see news of others coming out with something as patents expire.
@@aviphysics, some extremely exciting systems are being demonstrated now, but only for commercial and industrial level sliding saws. Felder, the first, then Altendorf and a third I do not know, whose name I cannot remember.
Its great you have the money and can afford such an expensive saw, its just not an option for many. If money where no object I am sure everyone would buy one, but if your options are - buy a $300 saw and get to work, or stop woodworking all together, its a tougher decision, and that is the choice many people are faced with
I've never had a problem in my 20 years of working in the industry. While It does interest me, I don't find it too concerning. I'm pretty sure my next saw will have these technologies as saw stops patent is up in 2026.
If the American government hasn't been concerned enough to force saw stop to license it, and I have a track record of being perfectly safe. I don't see a need until market adoption.
That being said if anyone is in the market for a table saw right now. I certainly wouldn't fault you for buying one. It's a smart choice for sure!
The only blades that tend to cut me are angle grinders and razor blades. But I run my grinders without the OSHA approved guard thingy. F that thing, I need to work, not play with guards trying to work...
Great video, with a balanced perspective. Here's another part of the picture. Mr Gas and partners didn't just make another table saw -- they made a damned fine saw, as good as or better than any comparable saw on the market. They took their amazing innovation and then wrapped a first-rate saw around it. They went the distance. And I believe that explains their success at least as much as the braking technology at this point.
interestingly, i think what SawStop has done is create the "margin" in costs for themselves to build an amazing saw in multiple ways because their corner on the safety feature market creates a very high willingness to pay. they could have made a saw exactly like the competitors, and charged only a few hundred more, and probably still outpaced the competition. but instead they put the price point very high, and then added a lot of other great technology and design to their products. you could say that the JSS and the CTS are starting to break that model, because they're making saws that are much closer to the competition other than the safety feature, while still charging > 100% (possibly 200%) mark-up. that said, i do still think the JSS (which I recently bought) is better (and bigger) than its nearest competitor (DeWalt 7491, which I also own). but the gap in quality for those smaller saws doesn't quite justify the price gap as much as, say, their contractor saw justifies the markup over similar contractor saws without the safety feature. but i am sure they did their market research and priced it where it needs to be for them.
Their higher end saws are very good, but the saws they're comparable to in quality are also half the cost. When you take into account that he said adding the SawStop tech adds maybe $300 at most to the machine build, you quickly realize how much you're getting fleeced.
@@thomashajicek2747 Sawstop 3hp cabinet saw is currently $3,582 while the comparable Powermatic is $4,899. I’ve owned both and the Sawstop is a better machine backed by substantially better customer service. Oliver is about the only other saw that is in the same class as far as 3hp 50-52”cabinet saws, and it is $400 more than the Sawstop. Jet, Grizzley, Laguna, and Baileigh are all inferior and not comparable. Harvey is probably comparable, but it, too, is more than the Sawstop.
@Thomas Hajicek have you compared a pcs to an equivalent competitor saw ? Features, function, quality, warranty, customer service, and yes price? Using the term fleece isn't applicable here. Why do you see it as fleecing when a competitor brand saw is the same or higher cost without the safety feature?
@@matthewl.459 I can get a Laguna Harvey or Grizzly 3hp table saw to name a few for more than $1,000 less than a 3hp Sawstop. And I’m sure they are all already making comfortable profit margins.
We already know the Sawstop safety feature adds maybe $300 in build cost. So now you need to look at that other features the sawstop has over those other saws, if any, and decide is it’s worth $700+ out of you pocket. For me the answer is no. It’s up to you to be honest with yourself and decide.
8 percent is just the licensing fee. The cost to actually add this to saws is $150-200 as stated, which is 50-66% on a $300 saw.
How much is your finger or a limb worth to you?
Also, compare the small additional fee compared to your medical bill if you do save some cash and whack your finger off.
whoops on their part!
Seems a bad business decision to not implement the Sawstop tech into tablesaws. A visit to the ER from a TS accident is tens of thousands of dollars and even the best insurance - the insured persons cost is more than the increase in saw cost! It comes down to a personal responsibility for your own safety. I don’t have a problem with government regulating safety. The current EPA or OSHA rules protect all of us and end up costing companies money…..what else is new. I don’t think Sawstop should have given their tech away. Saw manufacturers should have paid the dang fee and made safer better saws,
Sawstop is the fastest growing saw company bar none!
I think Sawstop made the right decision to build their own saws given the circumstances at the time. The other saw companies probably made the right business decision for them too. My point is that an 8% increase in the price of a cheap saw could likely be accepted by consumers, but a 60% increase would have destroyed the low end saw business. Yes, $200 is cheaper than losing a finger, but so is $5000.
Other safety features like riving knives, blade guards, and good fence design go a long way to making saws safer. If, say, only Ryobi had licensed the Sawstop technology, their jobsite saws would go for $500, while every other brand's saws would be selling for $300. The only way I could see this working is if all the brands licenced the tech at the same time and everyone raised prices, so the cheapest saw from any brand was $500.
The Sawstop story should probably be compared with airbags (a passive safety tech) rather than seatbelts (active safety). Airbags were patented in 1953, but no automakers were interested. It wasn't until the patent expired in the 1970s that automakers first started experimenting with it, and they eventually became common in the 1990s.
When you consider 'some' consumers make decision affecting national security by buying China duplicate products to save $5, 8% + hardware costs does look like commercially un-viable. Viability = survival, so if the government won't commit it to law, then that's the end of the road.
I really researched all 10" cabinet saws to run alongside my Felder sliding saw. I needed a 10" for precision work and run my Incra systems. I ended up buying the Harvey 4HP Alpha with TiN coated top. I'm pretty happy with that decision.
Love my fielder.📐🇨🇦
@@troyqueen9503 I have their 16" Jointer/Planer, Shaper with power feeder, large bandsaw and the Hammer edge sander which is a great machine. I am setting up the Harvey saw in a couple of weeks. I bought it without fence and rails so I could install the complete Incra LS positioner based system. I'm going to build the extension table as a storage drawer system with the router lift in it. It them joins what will be the workbench. I'm still working on that design or how to do that one. So far I have to say I'm impressed with the Harvey saw.
How do you find the tin top? I also bought mine with the tin top, I regret it. Not worth the money, I’ve had rust spots on it, which I was under the assumption that it prevents rust. It also doesn’t glide as well as cast iron.
@@jac_builtWoodworks I just got it a few weeks ago so don't have it set up yet. If that top rusts I'll be talking to Harvey about it right quick!
@@jac_builtWoodworks I use the CRC dry lube moly spray coating, it's like olive green spray paint. It does periodically wear off but it is a great anti-friction surface, nothing rusts, the fence slides easier, and I coat blades with it too which reduces scrubbing them to remove pitch- the teeth clean themselves after applying.
As a guy who lost the tip of one finger, 8 percent is nothing. Sawstop tried going the route of selling their tech. Didn't work so they did the next best thing. Good on em. I'm currently saving up to buy a bigger tablesaw for my business/hobby. Guess what I'll be purchasing 😁
Yup, they tried to have it in all saws. No one wanted to touch it.
i'm guessing ryobi? :)
@@keithf5236😂😂😂
Lost the last inch of my thumb to a table saw 3 years ago. United we stand brother!
Only way I will have one is that someone gives one to me...
I actually researched this topic not too long ago. I looked up the timeline, patents, and a lot of the details you mentioned. This video is spot on in terms of research and effort!
Also, I don't think anyone can blame SawStop for doing what they did. They had a chance to jump on that train and disregarded it. If SawStop had failed as a company, no one would have batted an eye. So they can't be mad about it now.
I have no issue with the saw. I just have an issue with mandating the tech that prices novice out of learning, because all the saw are to expensive.
@@agdtec it would suck initially. But economies of scale would kick in and over time, it would be way cheaper to implement. Over time, companies would find cheaper ways of rolling out the same tech. The only thing holding them back right now is the patent. I'm sure half of them have something in the works, waiting for all the patents to expire.
@@MakingMadeSimple WE can all hope. But look at the European saws. They are mas purposefully not to have dado blades. I have no problem with the saw stop saw per se but I don't want to see regulation making it mandatory for all saw. Especially with the low percentage of users injured. And the blade guard stops finger from getting to close but to many find them a pain to use.
Great breakdown. But it sounds to me that the biggest blocker here isn’t the patents, it’s the blood-sucking attorneys who would sue over a product NOT having a feature when that feature was never promised to be included and the courts that would side with them.
nope... it is the sales people trying to hit a price point.
Exactly right. This guy tried to pass himself as a witness against a competitor in a consumer lawsuit. I wonder why he or the consumer's lawyers thought that would work at all in a court room. All the Ryobi lawyer would have to ask him about is his line of business and instant discredit for conflict of interest.
Lawyers are just the tool people use to sue. Frankly I am more worried about laws preventing people from suing. Just look at antislapps. They force you to win a trial without discovery just to continue the trial. They are often mishandled by judges and appeals courts rarely give a shit.
The legal system already has some massive gates keeping people out.
I agree. The featyre could be offered on a higher priced saw and the customer could be told the technology is available, do you want it on you saw. If they decline, they should have a very hard time suing. Peeople hqve the option of buying cars that are crash rated higher than others and I don't see law suits from Chevy owners who wrecked their car when they could have had a Volvo. A much safer car. Patent yes, buyer beware.
@@squarelevelplumb There isathird option. design the game with the sawstop i mind and allow it to be sold separately. They could still fork over the 8% and only the people who buy the stop will want it.
Great job! I wished you had included the fact that Sawstop tried to get the courts to mandate this tech in every saw sold in the US. When Bosh gave away their antilock breaking system to the whole car industry for free to increase safety. Sawstop is all about the money.
E
Same with Mercedes controlled crumple front ends-gave it away for free-thousands of lives saved.Certainly inventors are due compensation but everyone suffers if it becomes excessive-really extorsion
The fabric the us flag is made of is greed.
Great video essay. I don't know if the story has been told like this before, so it is great to have the timeline and chain of events documented and presented in such a fashion. Great work!
I agree.
Let’s hope Sawstop likes it and doesn’t sue me for something I accidentally got wrong
@@731Woodworks pretty sure the 1st Amendment applies here. As long as you’re not knowingly giving out false defamatory information… and I didn’t hear anything of the sort. It was done respectfully and as well researched as possible.
**But I’m not an attorney.
I bought a Reaxx before the ban, and really liked the machine and the mechanism vs the SawStop option for smaller lightweight saws. The only reason I sold it was because I upgraded from a jobsite saw to the more powerful SawStop PCS. I understand the patent protections but SawStop's root patents (the ones Bosch was found to infringe on) are really close to the "do but this time with table saws" that is used to invalidate so many other patents. Honestly, I think the safety options would now be MUCH better across the board if there had been room for competition around the basic idea of a capacitative touch sensor on a blade (vs lamps, switches, etc).
As for "patent troll" … there are some that come up with their own inventions. The term is more often used for companies that own/enforce/license patents but do not product the thing themselves. Looking up some numbers, that 8% license fee is basically HALF of the profits for tool sales. That's incredibly high, and in the realm of patent trolls. However, SawStop stopped heading down the path of being a patent troll as soon as they started actually producing their own products. And not simply making flesh-sensing saws, but machines that can stand on their own against the competition even without the flesh sensing mechanism (and great customer support, too).
Great deep dive into this subject... This is a discussion that goes on all over the world over many safety items I am sure. I think SawStop did it the way it needed to be done for them. I have no issue with how this worked out.
Matt, I believe your very thoughtful review on this has one significant shortcoming. You rightly say that the SawStop is more expensive, but that doesn’t adequately cover it - the SawStop CNS at $2,214 is OVER TRIPLE THE PRICE of the equivalent competitor Delta 36-725T2 at $699!!!
Like you, I don’t at all begrudge SawStop for charging a premium for their terrific innovation - they richly deserve to profit from it. But at 317% of an equivalent saw, they’re gouging. And I absolutely begrudge that.
Pricing as of 4/20/23 before sales tax:
Delta: $699, no add-ons (wheeled base included), pick it up at Lowes.
SawStop: $1,979 base model plus $235 for wheeled base = $2,214.
Shipping: It can get even worse. If you don't have a Rockler (or maybe Woodcraft?) store nearby where you can buy the SawStop in person, you'll get hit with the same HEFTY $250 shipping charge from any of SawStop or Rockler or Woodcraft. That would bring it to over 350% of the equivalent Delta picked up at Lowes. Lowes will ship the Delta to me in Indianapolis for $79.
If a table saw user is inexperienced, or concerned about danger, use blade guards, use a bandsaw, use a handsaw, or don’t woodwork. Otherwise, get well trained in safe table saw use, and buy Sawstop. I did, and I love it. It’s a first class machine even without the electronic safety feature. I’ve used my SawStop for over 10 years and have never set off the blade arrestment. I used right tilt table saws since the late 70s and never came close to an injury - I’m VERY careful. I taught high school woodworking for several years, and I taught my students to be even more careful than I am, when using any power tool. Everyone has choices relative to their own safety, and must accept/exercise full responsibility for safety when using known dangerous tools. If one gets hurt while using known dangerous tools, that aren’t defective, relative to original design, and manufacturing standards, it’s not the manufacturer’s fault. I Fully support SawStop patents, and them profiting from some great engineering, for as long as possible.
Unfortunately, you can't idiot proof any tool. Any fool with three hundred bucks can go buy a jobsite saw and whack their fingers off.
I learned something important here. I was unaware that SawStop tried to get legislation passed requiring that all table saws use their technology. That is morally and ethically repugnant to me. Invent a better mousetrap and get patent protection on your design - fine. Invent a better mousetrap then try to get the government to require ALL mousetraps use your design so you get paid - bull 💩.
I own three saw stop table saw. I'm grateful for this technology. I do high end residential and commercial millwork instations we had one accident in the last ten years that resulted in less than 20 minutes of downtime production. We changed the cartridge and blade back at work. The individual that hit his had on the job has over 20 years experience is a master carpenter. He the ordered a sawstop for his personal use..
Agree with you, SawStop thanks for making a safer machine. I bought the baby SawStop because I thought the technology was worth the extra cost. Could have bought two other saws for the same price but decided my personal safety as a beginning hobbyist was worth it.
Very good summarization. I agree... they tried, nobody wanted it, so they had to do whatever it took to get safer saws out there on the market. Also, I love your t-shirt.
correction, they had to do what it took to earn money from the invention. If they were just doing whatever it took to get safer saws on the market, they would have licensed it for free.
Great video. I also own the 3hp PCS and over and above the safety feature it’s an amazing machine. I noticed you mentioned the pharmaceutical industry which I work in and generic pharmaceutical companies fight to get the rights for drugs coming off of patents. I think the main difference between the two industries is regulations and oversight. Even the car industry is regulated by the government. In my opinion open sourcing the saw stop technology would lead to their manufactures trying to make it cheaper and less reliable which in turn would give saw stop a bad name. I think saw stop did what they had to do to prevent the technology from being adulterated. The whole point of a safety feature is that it works. In order to ensure it works saw stop needs to maintain control over the technology. I’m not rich and I own a saw stop because I know good value. Take away the safety feature and the machine is second to none. To many times people confuse low price for good value. Always remember only a rich man buys cheap tools.
My first question when I saw a SawStop saw soon after they came out was, "but is it a good Table Saw?" Turns out it is. Imagine how hard it was to get them manufactured from a cold start. Imagine what would have happened if they had made a poor quality saw to house their patent. They had to get it right.
Not only that, but once you get above the benchtop or job site saw level it doesn't cost any more to buy a SawStop of equivalent features and quality (except the blade braking of course).
Thank you very much for the information. I have serious issues with “How much money is enough” philosophy. I have been considering a Sawstop for some time now. I just cannot support a company that the thickness of their pockets is the most important thing. 20+ years--come on. Enough is enough. I decided to go with the Fusion 2. This is after I made the mistake of buying a Rigid job site saw. I should have listened to you then Matt. Also, I would like to thank you for all your content. I am a beginner woodworker and I can’t begin to thank you for all your videos. The content is awesome but the message is priceless. Well done. Thanks again.
The only time I've ever gotten hurt on a tablesaw was because of kickback. I'd used an old cheap table saw that did not have a riving knife and a piece of wood with a knot in it tried to close back up as the blade cut it. I got a bruise on my stomach,and bout messed my pants. Good safety practices and not working when tired or mentally occupied are the best safety features you have.plan your cuts and even go through the motions prior to actually cutting. If you're in doubt,find another way.
Even most accidents that sawstop protects against are preventable. Using a blade guard is way up there on the list. That said I still bought a Sawstop to prevent future inattentive me from making a simple, life changing, stupid mistake.
I never knew this whole story, just complaints from viewers' comments on videos about the high cost of SawStop products. Thank you for the enlightenment, Matt. I could see, though, if one or more other companies had taken SawStop up on their licensing offer, things could still have gone wrong for the consumer. As an example, the developer of insulin as a medicine sold the rights for $1. American pharmaceutical companies took that, manufactured (& still manufacture) insulin for very low costs, but now turn around & price-gouge diabetics with prohibitively high costs. Diabetics commonly have to ration their insulin, or go without other necessities of life to pay for it, as a result. Keep in mind, the research & development wasn't done by these same companies. That part was sold for $1, with the developer's intention being to help as many diabetics as possible. Production costs haven't gone up appreciably. Another more recent example is Covid vaccines, where R&D was paid for by American taxpayers, & now Moderna & Pfizer are talking about quadrupling the cost of the vaccine dose. The problem can be summed up in 2 words: corporate greed. So, conceivably, Ryobi (for instance) could have taken up SawStop on their licensing offer, implemented the technology, & (depending on how contracts were written, of course), then turned around & jacked up the price of their saws considerably more than "necessary." Now, a table saw is not as vital to life as insulin is to diabetics or vaccines are for preventing illness, but hopefully you get my point. Sadly, capitalism & the American Way often lead to corporate greed & subsequent price gouging. I don't see that SawStop is necessarily guilty of that, since they were initially willing to let other companies use their technology for a relatively small licensing fee, & everyone turned them down. But I would be curious to know what their profit margin is, based on initial investments, manufacturing costs, etc. Just my thoughts.
Excellent presentation. Very valid points. SawStop tried hard...current owners, maybe not quite as much. As I get older, with the kids grown and out on their own, I have already decided I will replace my current saw with a SS. With the kids coming home and needing to do projects, I will pay what it takes to have the SS tech as a backup to drastically reduce the chances of anyone being seriously injured whenever they are in my shop. Couldn't live with myself otherwise.
With many woodworkers getting close to retirement age (or there already) - there's a good chance they will be working alone in their shop/basement (no one else home).
Now - imagine they do not have a Sawstop and that accident happens - thumb & fingers mangled and or cut off. Woodworker goes into shock almost immediately! Do they have a phone CLOSE by? Able to make a call to 911? Likelihood of surviving this scenario? Not favorable!
Swap their saw out for a Sawstop - same scenario. Hand makes contact with blade. Woodworker looks at his "wound" (a small nick that he'll put to his mouth and think "WOW! GLAD I have a SS!!!)
Then he thinks "Crap - there goes my $200 blade and a $100 brake!" Then the other side of brain kicks in telling him: "Hey DUMBASS! At least you have all your digits; your not going into shock; and don't need to call 911 or undergo many painful and expensive surgeries! Now go change your shorts and come back, change the blade & brake, and get back to work!!"
I MUCH prefer the latter scenario. If spouses whose other half uses a non-Sawstop, they are smart to insist their other half will not use it if home alone - as the first scenario above has a good chance of the woodworker not making it (surviving)! I know of at least one couple that have made that agreement! Smart folks - better safe than sorry.
If I remember correctly when the idea was first conceived, they tried to market it as an upgrade kit that could be added to virtually any table saw. I seem to recall a couple of articles in woodworking magazines at that time. As I started getting older I knew that my focus and reaction time would likely begin to decline so I used some of the money from my inheritance to purchase a Sawstop about five years ago and have been extremely happy with it.
I wonder if an upgrade kit could be installed on non-SS saws. If it were reasonably priced, I would buy it to add to my Bosch job site saw.
@@marshallmurrell4583 The origin of Saw Stop was just that, it was something that could be installed on other table saws. They tried licensing it to tool companies to use in production so it would not have to be an aftermarket purchase and they were told to kick rocks. So they made their own table saws.
I lost the tip of my thumb on a ryobi saw just this past April. I haven’t been able to use it since and every time I look at it I get this feeling of dread. I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to bring myself to use a non sawstop table saw ever again. I’m currently saving up for one for when I’m cleared to begin working in the shop again. I think sawstop is right to protect their patent and they did say that they would release their blade brake patent for free if the cpsc mandates the use of blade brakes in all table saws, which I think is huge of them. I’ve heard some arguments that doing so would price hobbyists out of the space but I personally think that is a cop out. In today’s economy, saving up $500-$800 for a saw is doable. I’m doing that right now. And the replacement brake cartridges are chump change compared to the cost of a surgical amputation after severe trauma to the soft tissue and bone. I think the saw manufacturers need to stop worrying about litigation and start thinking about their customers. Ryobi, dewalt, delta, and every other saw manufacturer out there has lost my potential business after my injury because none of them is currently utilizing a blade brake of any kind in any of their saws. Mind you, most of my shop is made up of ryobi products. Before my injury, I was considering getting a larger table saw and ryobi was in the running for that upgrade. Now, they’ve lost my business and my only choice is sawstop. By not paying that licensing fee, they cost themselves the chance to sell me another saw and if/when they finally add it to their saws, I will need irrefutable proof that it is at least as good and as reliable as sawstop before I buy another table saw from them. Cheers 🍻
Thank you for all the time and research you put into this video. Definitely a tough subject. It's really hard to choose a side, although I do think they are price gouging. You can buy a really nice Harvey for $2300 or a Sawstop for $3500. Most people can't afford that.
It cost me $23000 for e r and surgery on my thumb . If I had ben told in a dream or something you will cut a chunk of your thumb off tomorrow I would gladly spent $ 3600 the next day before work and saved my thumb it will never be the same again. How can you not afford it.
I certainly feel bad about your situation, I can't even imagine what you went through. But, I only own a $400 bosch contractor table saw, because that is all I can afford. I'm not going to quit woodworking because I can't afford a Sawstop.
@@johnseavey6622 In America we have a terrible patent system, and horrible healthcare... One way, or another, we're gonna get screwed.
Once you get above the entry-level saws a SawStop is no more expensive that competitive saws of similar quality. Unless you are looking for a Jobsite or benchtop saw you won't pay a premium for the SawStop one.
How does that price compare to a comparably sized/equipped PowerMatic or other name brand which does not have the safety technology?
This was a very even-keeled overview of the subject. My view on patents is a bit different, probably because I work in software and software patents are almost always really bad. I think the patent system was essential historically, but it's due for some changes in today's world.
I'd love the Bosch version. Imagine not having to buy a cartridge every time, too.
This is when the patent system fails. A company comes up with something even better, but it gets suppressed. But that's also why patents expire. I'm sure Bosch will have those back on shelves the day after the patents expire.
But the next problem is that it's become too easy for companies to very slightly tweak a patent to restart the clock. Drug makers do the same thing.
Wait, doesn't the cartridge only need to be replaced after it triggers and preventing an accident?
@@shadowolf45 Bosch just goes under the table and spins down. There is no braking cartridge. I believe they used their knowledge/experience with automotive air bags to develop that portion of the technology.
Great Video, one thing that could play into your video is the fact that since July 2017 SawStop has been owned by TTS Tooltechnic Systems Holding AG (Germany), which also owns Festool.
I was under impression Gass saw an opportunity, built something based on another's patent, then when it worked went out and bought that patent. So his "invention" was applying someone else work in flesh detection via conduction to a metal sawblade. So my opinion is less an inventor motivated by safety and more a patent lawyer who sought out a litigious arena open to profiteering via the legal and political system. But, today there is Sawstop, and I own one.
The "problem" I have with SawStop isn't that they hold the patent or that they make the product and what not. It's clearly a great product and it saves a lot of fingers. The problem is that they took advantage of the patent to get the Bosch Reaxx taken off the market. They use different systems to accomplish different things. Basically making it now impossible for the markedly BETTER systems to come to the US. In Europe they have the capacitive drop system that doesn't damage the blade nor does it require a cartridge, and the blade can be reset quickly to continue your work. We have maybe another year before the final patent drops off, and I have no doubt other companies will come in and implement some version of a blade dropper, so we'll see what comes then.
As for the requirement to add their specific system, it's just not possible. They would have to make the product free to license out. I do think after all the patents expire, that the govt will take another look and make it a requirement once all manufacturers have an option to include in their saws.
Now saying all that, the SawStop is still the only Saw I would consider because I don't quite like Laguna or Powermatic, and their isn't enough data on Harvey.
If they didn't sue Bosch, they would "abandon" the patents, opening even more possible patents of theirs considered to be abandoned. So, they did exactly what you should be doing with patents.
The Reaxx was a clear violation of flesh-sensing patent and an attempt to avoid paying royalties to SawStop. They lost the case because while they did sufficiently change the blade-braking method to avoid violating the patent (Bosch basically used seat belt tech to rapidly retract the blade below the table while SawStop dumps a capacitive charge into a fusible link holding a brake back under incredible tension), they still ripped off patents covering SawStop's flesh-sensing technology. Bosch deserved to lose.
@@PhoenixRevealed Since the flesh sensing tech is the patent that was violated, what about a thermal imaging sensor set below the blade insert detecting body heat in the area of the blade and activating a hydraulic disk brake to stop the blade? Since zero clearance inserts are made of plastic (Sensors would have a hard time thru metal) the imaging sensors could be set to activate the brake prior to contact with the blade avoiding injury.
As a woodworker who, luckily, only cut off just a little bit of my thumb with a cheap saw, I'm speaking from personal experience on this one. The realization that my now 7/8 thumb could have been much worse changed my priorities immediately. I bought a Saw Stop the next day and it's worth every penny of the price. Life is a balance of risk and priorities - how much are your hands worth? If your priority is to blame others for risks you take - your priorities are wrong. This applies to everything in life - not just power tools.
Great video and discussion. I 100% agree with you in your assessment. They tried licensing, didn't work, so they put in the time and effort to get it to market. It actually costs quite of bit of time and money to simply get 1 patent, let alone multiple ones. R&D costs, etc. that need to recovered...they probably don't have millions of dollars just hanging around. Something that could actually strengthen or complicate the argument. 1. The seat belt comparison is fair but interesting. EVERYBODY drives, not everyone owns table saws. So, offering the open patent for seatbelts had the potential to touch WAY more lives. 2. Statistically speaking, kickback is the #1 cause of injuries with table saws which SawStop doesn't address. Not trying to belittle the aspect of getting fingers or hands cut off but this is a small % of the population (and honestly will never reach the level of seatbelts and cars). 3. You mention the Bosch suit. To be fair, if they didn't sue Bosch, then their patents would have been considered "abandoned", meaning they would lose their patents. But, I'll say it again, great vid, perspective, and I 100% agree!
Your video contains the answer to the question you pose. The value wasn't just in the idea it was also in the commercialization of the idea. The latter is hugely expensive. Without profit potential the commercialization would have gone unfunded and this tech would still be a set of dusty blueprints in a filing cabinet somewhere.
The difference between the SawStop tech and the seatbelt tech from Volvo is that the seatbelt is a tiny component of the entire automobile. The SawStop tech is the major component that sets a SawStop table saw apart from every other saw. Another way to say it: without the 3point seatbelt, a Volvo vehicle is still a Volvo vehicle. Without the SawStop tech, a SawStop table saw wouldn't exist.
You said it - thanks sawstop. And thanks to the other companies. The system worked. Everyone got to make their own choices, including - and most importantly - the consumer.
It was a bonus that sawstop ALSO decided to make a premium saw.
I purchased a new cabinet saw a year ago. If the SawStop was priced $300 or $400 more than an equivalent saw I would have bought the SawStop, but at $1330 more than an equivalent saw (actually not equivalent since the one I purchased had a considerable number of better features) I just couldn't justify the price. And before anyone that talks about the cost of a trip to the emergency room, I have 45 years experience on a table saw without so much as a close call or even a kickback. My hands can't touch the blade because I use guards, and jigs and pay attention to safety.
I absolutely love SawStop, it is amazing technology. They did exactly what they should have done. I live in Utah where we still have shop classes in highschools, but every school that does is required to have a SawStop. At least it was when I was in highschool 15 years ago. I would love to see some other companies get the license from them and have it more readly available, how ever I do not believe that it should ever be a requirement for all companies, SawStop is great for doing your "normal" wood working, but if you try and cut through some weathered wood that has just a little too much moister or nails, or too much dirt on it then it triggers the blade... If it was required for every company to have this feature then gone are the days of reclaiming wood, and or some furniture restoration. All in all It is an amazing company and I do support them and would love to see more of them
There is keyed lock on the Saw Stop to bypass the safety mechanism.
I side with inventors, but there should be some type of patent expiration. Great summary of the history and great video !!
Why should his "invention" (and patent) have to expire at all.?!?!?
Mankind has had hundreds of years to come up with his invention - why can't he "own it" at least as long as he lives.
Here we've been talking patents - what about "Copyrights"? They last a lot longer - currently, for the life of the artist PLUS another 70 YEARS!!! That is a LOT longer than the duration of a patent discussed here: 20 years!?!?
So far no one has compared a patent to a copyright. Should/shouldn't we? Food for thought.
I think this is less about Sawstop (I own one, great saw) and more about the defects of patent law and our legal system. Companies deciding, for example, not to offer a safety feature as an option because they feared getting sued. Sawstop suing Bosch to keep a similar system off the market. Patent law can reward inventors, but it is also used to stifle competition and protect monopoly positions.
i own a Reaxx saw, purchased during the windows that they were legal in the US, and I think its a superior system to the SawStop. My employees at work use it, and I don't see how I could possibly use any other type. At the time I bought it, it was about $200 more costly than the equivalent Bosch saw without that feature. The Reaxx is still for sale in Canada and in many other countries.
One argument could be: How much money do i need as a inventor. 8% equals what? 2 private jets, 5 houses ...? Maybe 1% could have been enough for a good living?
While I do not own a SawStop... I completely respect the technology for what it took to develop it and for what it can do for those that use it. In Oct 2022, my finger was pulled into the blade of my Ridgid table saw and the tip of my middle finger was severely sliced open. Would I pay 8% mark-up for that to not have happened... yes. Would I pay 8% now to keep it from happening... if I was in the market for a new table saw....absolutely.
Two things I would like to see happen....
1) SawStop to reattempt to partner with every mfg out there and for the initial sell of any new saw.... incorporate the SawStop feature and limit the mark-up to a max of 4% or 5%. Again... peanuts as you stated but it makes it easier to swallow that cost increase on the lower budget saws and for those just getting into this industry/hobby. While simultaneously charging full price for the replacement kit for any "engaged" SawStop mechanism. Nothing goes to the saw mfg.
2) I'd like to see refit kits for every saw configuration possible for any saw made within X number of years. I for one would buy it for my Ridge R4513 table saw. I would pay at least 1/2 the price of the saw to keep from possibly losing a finger or finger tip again... that's for sure.
Great video Matt.... well done research and yeah... I think we all can overthink subjects like this, but that's okay... that's how we learn!
SawStop deserves all the profits. They invented it, tried to get the "industry" to switch to it and they didn't take advantage of situation. As a woodworker I would have paid the higher price for it. My shop teacher almost cut his arm off when I was in Jr. High school I'm sure he would have taken advantage of the technology had it been available. My son purchased an older Craftsman saw and almost took off two fingers. Myself, I "touched" the blade of my Rigid saw and I can confirm it hurts like the dickens! Several years later and if I touch my thumb where it happened just right it stings, messed up the nerves I suppose. It literally was just the width of the blade, 1/8" and less than a 1/4" of an inch deep less than a inch long and I had blood everywhere. I haven't/didn't purchase a SawStop because of price and I thought I would never be dumb enough to get close enough to the blade of my Rigid. Complacency can get you hurt. I am now saving up for a SawStop, I just need to figure out how to sneek it into my shop without the wife figuring it out LOL. Thanks for the info and sharing your talent with us all! Stay safe
Derek - I wrote this (above) to "tuesboomer": If spouses whose other half uses a non-Sawstop, they are smart to insist their other half will not use it if home alone - as the first scenario above has a good chance of the woodworker not making it (surviving)! I know of at least one couple that have made that agreement! Smart folks - better safe than sorry. I bet you wifey will INSIST you have a SS if she sees the brochures and watches a live demo in a store! Take her to one.
I bought a cheap table top saw when I needed one to rebuild my fire place. Not having used one before and not being a You Tube consumer at the time I was extremely surprised when I suffered what could have been a life threating kick back (part of the 2x4 I was ripping wound up imbedded in the garage wall). The after the fact research I did led me to buying a SawStop cabinet machine. Having made what could have been a catastrophic mistake on my first attempt to use a table saw has made me more appreciative of any safety measure that I can implement. The peace of mind that I get from using the SawStop is worth the extra money.
I have always considered saw stop to be part of what I call the unholy trinity of tools . Saw stop woodpeckers and festool . 3 high quality but grossly over priced brands constantly pushed down your throat but content creators as if you couldn't build anything with out them. How ever after hearing the bigger history of the saw stop brand I see them in a different light and commend them for thier tenacity .
Thank you for enlightening me
" commend them for thier tenacity" and their lack of concern for all those woodworkers who do not have access or funds to buy one of their average to mediocre quality saws.
I believe that Saw Stop does not license the technology because the license would make a better quality product and prove the point. Compare a job site Makita to the SAW STOP ... a world of difference.
I’m a woodworker and work in my personal shop and I have random seizures I have the dewalt table saw and absolutely love it if the saw stop wasn’t so expensive I would get one just because of my seizures
I mainly use a track saw, but my wife said if I get another table saw, it has to be saw stop!! I will not argue!!!
Years ago I had a friend who’s dad lost a finger because of a circular saw, which I know isn’t the same thing. I have a Ryobi table saw which serves me good, I’m always extra careful don’t want any kickback
As a public health injury epidemiologist (PhD), and a woodworker, I love your example of the seatbelt. Also see: Jonas Salk and the Polio vaccine, who supposedly said, and I paraphrase: "the people own the patent; could you patent the sun?"
Think of the bodies he could have saved. He certainly did right legally and from a capitalist perspective. Under a more socialist democratic system, the government could pay him handsomely... AND make it as cheap as possible to include the product everywhere. His name could have been synonymous with thousands of fingers and hands held, the way Salk's is with human lives saved.
It's not his problem. The US capitalist system makes it so much easier to stay competitive rather that to lean into a social good *while celebrating the inventiveness of individuals and groups.*
But yeah - there ARE examples of people and countries socializing an innovation and regulation.
I think small table saws are inherently more dangerous than bigger cabinet saws. Most new workworkers are going to start with a small saw so it's a potentially hazardous situation while learning. My guess is that like motorcycling riding the biggest risks of using a TS is the first year of so of using it, so it makes intuitive sense that newbies utilize all available safety technology.
As Ron Paulk stated recently in his review of the CSS, the medical costs of a TS injury are very, very, very expensive and one could potentially buy a big rig full of saws and have money left over for a pickup truck if a trip to the ER is prevented by the use of flesh sensing technology.
However, I'm sticking with my DW735 for now. I've made thousands of cuts on it the past four years and feel I fully understand it's capabilities and what it can safely do and have reviewed dozens of safety videos each year (Gosforth Handman has made a excellent safety video for this very saw--while I think while most safety considerations for saws are pretty universal, others can be specific to the type and model you're using).
SS technology doesn't eliminate all risks. You still have to utilize good practices and read manuals. For instance, I saw a video of from someone candid enough to recount how he lost 80% of his vision in one eye by putting a small block of wood through his saw (w/o using eye protections) that was kickbacked into his face like a hockey puck. It would had hardly mattered if he was using a SS in this instance. My Dewalt manual states not to rip a piece of wood under a certain length and now I understand why. You always have to be in control of the wood your cutting--which is why I'm often using two Grippers in conjunction (seeing people on videos use only a push stick to rip cut makes me very uncomfortable and is something I never do).
I'm considering a SS in the future--if my son gets interested in doing some projects I'll probably get one. However, for now using good practices and building jigs for risky cuts and I feel comfortable about continuing using the DW735.
Appreciate the discussion. Our patent and ™ system has been abused for decades. However, I don't think this is a case of it--a real pity saw manufacturers were too shortsighted to purchase licenses for the technology. Always be thinking safety even while not at the tablesaw. Walk away for cuts if they don't feel safe. Use your common sense.
Next year all bets are off for Saw Stop, however that does not mean it will happen. All the major manufactures still have to decide to implement this ACROSS their product lines...
I’m glad you brought up the ideology of patients, which is a driving force behind the US economy. Should the Saw Stop patient be universally available? Should power tool manufacturers be mandated to offer interchangeable batteries to lessen the environmental impact?
Thank you for an informative non biased coverage of this invention and patent issues from all sides. Well done sir. America would be better off if all and I mean all news sources used this approach. Again very well done. I’m impressed.
Thank you kindly
@@731Woodworks your welcome. Just one of the things I like about your channel. Your reviews are real and informed based on experience and research. This video was far and way as proven by other comments exemplary in execution. It showed the time you put into it. Keep up the good work for wood workers in all levels of our journey.
@12:07 "would that 8% be worth it?" It's there today for anyone to buy people but people prioritize cost or other factors and continue to buy saws w/o the sawstop technology.
I am about 80-20 towards SawStop. Awesome concept. Worthy concept.
I seriously doubt that any small production shop could afford NOT to buy and use SawStop products. OSHA must love them. Industrial insurance must be significantly less expensive. Woodworkers who operate SawStop products must surely feel safer. But...I cannot afford to purchase that extra bit of safety. Not right now, anyway.
I am aware that the blade 'cartridge' is in the one hundred dollar area. I do not know if the unit has a "use by" date, or needs to be replaced on a (pick a time frame) basis or not. I am aware that the unit is single use, which is to say that once triggered, the unit literally destroys itself, requiring replacement. Ok. One hundred bucks just saved thousands of dollars in medical treatment.
I have never operated a SawStop product. I have seen and thoroughly studied static product. I am convinced it is a high quality product. I am just not in a financial position that allows me to purchase any...ANY...SawStop product.
We are also talking about a window that envelops fifteen or so years of production. I have yet to see SawStop products on the used market at reasonable prices...let's say 50-60% of original purchase price. So...I do without.
The comment from that Delta exec was quite telling. To paraphrase..."...we can put it on our good stuff, but not the cheap stuff..." ...'it' being the technology. Again, the technology is priced out of my market.
So...I do without, while wistfully gazing thru the window.
Do I blame SawStop? Nope.
Am I mad at SawStop? Nope.
Do I wish the technology could be adapted to older saws. You betcha.
PS: At the time I posted this missive, Matt, you had 1900 likes...and 600 responses. D'ya git the feeling you just poked a sleeping bear? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I can't seem to find the electronic table saw safety device you could add to any table saw. It would prevent you from getting hurt like the sawstop device but went about it a different way. I want to say it was $300- 400 for the kit. Looked like a great product for people that don't want to go the sawstop route. I'll post the info if I come across it again.
Appreciated the history/business information on this saw. I really love mine and knowing the safety behind it makes me more confident in using it more often. I think a lot of people are fearful of using saws because of the danger. Imagine how many more people would own any type of saw if that technology was in all table saws.
fear of power tools is not a bad thing. So you are no longer afraid of your table saw but what other power tools do yo use that could also injure you? Practice good safety. Make it a habit and safety because natural.
i think Saw Stop could be implemented in other brands. So you could buy a Bosh Saw with a SawStop protection in it.
I think SawStop should just lower the licensing cost so that they still make money, but also make it affordable for all saw makers to include the technology.
Hard decision, I see both sides but they make a great saw. If you want to keep fingers buy saw stop
If somebody buys a Spark and complains after a crash that it wasn't as safe as a Suburban, do they get to sue? Tool brands should have offered it.
In my experience, the Saul stop technology works very well. Well worth a few hundred dollars extra for a premium feature on a premium shop tool. On the other hand, ambulance chasing lawsuit minded individuals always make things cost more. "love of money".
Felder has a finger saving system on their format 4 line of sliding table saws. Not something that would be on most people’s radar due to the price.
I think one thing that perhaps you overlooked is that if Sawstop had licensed the technology the company that licensed it would likely have had some kind of exclusive agreement which puts us right back in the position we are now.
As for Sawstop and Dr. Gass, I'm less inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt because of some of the things they have done to consolidate and monopolize the market. From their lobbying efforts to testifying against Ryobi to squelching competition.
Although my fingers are intact and, i was using a grinder and not a tablesaw. I had a blade disintegrate and, two cut fingers at an angle with one to the bone and it cost $10K in 2014.
I purchased a Dewalt 8.5” Table saw last November for under $300 (on sale, and my 1st table saw), and would have ABSOLUTELY have paid up to $500 (total) for the SawStop tech feature, especially when comparing it to the new ~$1,000 SawStop Job site saw (which had some “issues”) Fingers, $200, fingers, $200, fingers, $200…. I think I’ll keep my fingers/tips, rather than the $200 extra. I didn’t turn it on for a week I was so intimidated by it 😂, and watched 20 hours of UA-cam videos on “How to NOT cut your finger(s) off” before using it for the 1st time. The other manufacturers made a big mistake! We all more or less gladly pay thousands extra for all of the government mandated safety features in our vehicles now (air bags, side curtain air bags, anti-lock brakes, stability control, etc. etc. ). The general public would also get used to paying for this feature.
I didn't know much, if any of the big picture on SS and the fact that they actually offered this technology to other saw mfg's. Just my view from the cheap seats is that if they had offered this to other companies for a percent of royalties, those companies are remiss and negligent for not taking up that deal. I'm not sure I can put this on the same plane as Volvo belt technology because after all, the seat belt is but a very small part of the car and despite the seatbelt, the technology superiority of Volvo vs most vehicles is like night and day.
Thank you for these couple of videos on SS. The other other one being the patent attorney feature. Great stuff.
What I don’t get is on why did they sue Bosch??
The difference between volvo and sawstop is the volvo seatbelt saves lives and although sawstop saves fingers, hands, and arms, it isn't a life or death situation in almost any situation. (unless theres a story out there where someone died because of a table saw) . If people were dying at the same rate using the table saw as to not wearing a seatbelt, then i think i would have a different opinion as to sawstop not opening their patent
Sawstop has a certain percentage of market share. They could drastically reduce the licensing fee making it way more affordable for all the other manufacturers to adopt it and still get all the revenue they currently are.
The fact that the only saw I can get in europe as far as i know with sawstop technology is the Festool T80, which costs 3,500USD (in Norway), is crazy to me. I would be okay with Sawstop selling their saws here as long as we can have access to this safety feature to a somewhat reasonable price, I would be happy to pay up 50% more for this feature on any table saw.
Great history. They offered it for license but the saw companies decided the medical costs and injuries wasn't their concern. An 8% license fee doesn't increase costs hundreds even with the cost of production of the mechanism itself. $24 on a $300 saw. I'd guess $50 to $75 at most to produce the mechanism.
Great video. As a new woodworker, this has been a stopping point for my progress. I know that I need the extra safety due to lack of experience, but it's also pretty pricey. Because it's so pricey, I have just stopped my journey. Thanks for sharing.
Better to spend the money you can earn more of, than to lose the finger you cannot afford to replace. :)
@@mrgunn2726 For real!
Nice topic. The issue with the Volvo comparison is that cars are literally almost used by everyone so 3 point seat belts affect MANY more people than a safety table saw. What Volvo did was commendable but Saw Stop has no obligation to do this. They offered the technology, at a high percentage, and no one wanted to do it in fear they wouldn't sell their lower end products. So who is the bad guy here? The companies who had profit on their minds over the safety of the public or Saw Stop who implemented it in their table saws, which are not cheap. You can't play the martyr when all these companies have zero regard for a customer's safety and only had their bottom line in the forefront of their minds. I'm 62, have been working with table saws for many years and have been lucky sometimes experiencing no injuries from the beast. If you respect the machine, use safe practices while using the saw, USE A BLADE GUARD, I am sure there would be many less injuries. So don't put this on Saw Stop, put it on the other companies who refused to "buy" this technology. If everyone bought it, anyone who wanted a lower end saw would just have to choose which manufacturer they would have to pay $500 to for the job site saw with the Saw Stop technology!
I’m with sawstop even with the safety issue, the bottom line is they tried to implement it to ask the table saw manufacturers and they rejected it. Sawstop believed in it when others didn’t and they took it upon themselves to make their own product. Now that it’s out there u got companies kicking themselves for not doing it. They had their opportunity!
Reminds me of the story of the "Little Red Hen" when I was a kid. No one was interested in doing all the work to till the garden, plant the wheat, etc. - but all the animals wanted a piece of the pie after she had done all the work!
The don't sell SawStop in Europe, but some of the Festool table saws have SawStop technology :)
That's because the bought Sawstop.
@@johnseavey6622 I guess it's a cheap deal for them 😊
This is a really well researched video, thanks. I don't agree with the Volvo comparison. Giving away a minor (relative to the complexity of a vehicle) safety feature is not the same as giving away the entire basis of your business.
I'm curious when the collection of patents will be up. I imagine there are a few that were all filed within a few years of each other meaning it shouldn't be many more years before they all expire. Any company or person bringing more safety to tools and machines has my thanks!
You explained that very well mate. I think, as you said, they have the right to that patent. I think ideally they should have compromised; license the tech, but at a MUCH more realistic percentage. Make money from it, enough to give SawStop the edge in sale price, but make it cheap enough to allow the technology to proliferate. God bless.
Saw stop could make an insert that could be retrofit to other saws. Then the saw owner could add this feature to their existing saw.
The other tool companies need to wise up and license this technology. They could sell the lower end saws direct to consumer with a waiver stating that certain safety features are not available on that particular saws. Having certain warnings on the saw and or packaging should clear them because people have been using saws for years and know the hazards that come with mishandling the saw. I’d love to see other brands have this technology but if nothing changes I’ll be changing over to a sawstop in the bear future.
Great video. You end the video with a question - whose side are you on? There’s another side you did not mention - the market. If the market demanded this feature, then all saws would have it without any problem. The issue is that most people do not care about this feature. Sure, people who have injured themselves care about the feature afterwards, but they did not before. This is a risk question that each woodworker each to answer for themselves. Is it worth the risk? I have used a Delta tablesaw for nearly 30 years.
According to Wikipedia, Sawstops patents started to expire in 2021. So it is mostly the resistance of the other tool companies (race to the bottom cost). Disclosure: I am happy SawStop owner.
The patents are open and free to use. You can modify your own saw to do the same, you just cannot sell it.
The patent system IS good as you can see how it works and do it at home.
Competitors are fully allowed to create a new system that is sufficiently different, or just wait for patent to expire. Still to expensive after expiry of patent.
Any engineering company, such as SawStop, is really a sales/profit company in disguise. Safety and goodwill kind of fall away to profits. I own a Saw Stop PCS and it is probably my forever saw so I am definitely biased, however, your video is really on point. I personally have 3 close friends who have had table saw accidents over the years. The manufactures' economics/liability don't seem to make sense when looking at how the tools affect peoples lives verse hitting a price point or liability. I know that I am oversimplifying the problem and I so want to put a "however" into my comment. That said, thank you for making this video.
I owned a Ryobi BTS15. Probably the scariest saw ever made. It had no riving knife. It did have a splitter and pawls that were attached to the blade guard assembly. If the blade guard was removed it had nothing to prevent kickback. The blade guard assembly attached to the back of the table on a single round post; therefor, it allowed the splitter to rock left to right. It would frequently rock towards the fence, and block the lumber from progressing all the way through the cut. One would have to stop the cut, align the splitter with the kerf, then restart the cut.
The pawls would scribe a perfectly straight line for the entire length the wood parallel to the kerf on both sides. Very nasty on the thin veneer of plywood.
It had no miter slots on either side. Miters had to be made using that sliding miter panel that had a small attachable fence. There was no way to use a miter gauge, sled, feather board, or any jig that requires a miter slot.
Not a surprise to hear Carlos sued Ryobi for getting injured. However, that saw had many more deficiencies than the lack of flesh sensing technology. I still have the PDF owner's manual if anyone ever wants to checkout the worst table saw ever sold.
Open Patents that worked for the companies - VHS vs Beta. Sony had Beta and licensed it. Panasonic made the VHS design free to us, they sold more units because of it and Beta died out and VHS too over the market.
I think I missed something. Price you mentioned a $300 saw would go to $500. But 8% increase on $300 would be $324. ?
8% seems excessive for a product that costs a small fraction of the entire cost of the saw. On a low end saw 8% isn't much but on a $10k + professional saw 8% it is close to 10 times the cost of the product.
No one owes anyone anything. No one is entitled to someone else's labor or intellectual property. It's yours and anyone's feelings about it are irrelevant. Don't let people rob you.
Excellent video. I'm on Team Saw Stop (I have a PCS 3HP) but even before I bought it, I thought the Osorio vs Home Depot USA (Ryobi) lawsuit was BS and it should not have been decided in his favor. From what I read at the time, he was cutting wood freehand, not using a miter gauge or fence. That violates rule #1 in table saw operations. It's called personal responsibility. I also fault the other manufacturers for not licensing the technology. Yes, I understand low-end saws would essentially be out of the marketplace but as there are about 30,000 injuries annually with a table saw and 10 daily injuries involving amputations, they could have cut that number down to dozens perhaps, not tens of thousands. Just my $0.02.
Did Biesemeyer give the fence system to Delta? No even though the fence system changed the way table saws were before thus enhancing their usage. Now you find that system on every major make and model. SawStop, Powermatic, Shop Fox, Grizzly, Porter Cable, Delta you name it.
Ultimately, I think it depends if they feel that their technology will be picked up by most manufactures NOW, and if the money they can get from them goes above what they are making now. Price will always win, but if they even get 5%, one would think that they'd make more off that. People would pay an extra $15 on a $300 or $25 on a $500 saw. Consumers wouldn't even notice that the price went up. I think it would be an incredible mandatory feature.
That said, they have the must-have product and as a result, demand a premium price. More power to them. I hope they kick butt. Just wish I could afford one.
Offering models with it as a premium is an idea that would have worked; no idea why that wasn't something the companies wanted. It's not much different than wanting a cabinet saw vs. contractor or job site saw.
I'm not a patent attorney, although in my opinion, based upon a good amount of reading I've done on the subject, I'm convinced that SawStop was/is a company that operates more on greed than making a good product at a fair profit. SawStops proposed licensing fees when they were negotiating with other companies were exorbitant and their tactics to use the government to force companies to pay their license their products are little more than attempted extortion. I like the concept of SawStop's safety feature and they have a compelling sales pitch, although theirs actions are an example of the problems with the US patent system where overly broad patents can get approved, then those patents can be used to kill of competition of products which are similar such as the Bosch safety feature, which works differently from SawStops (arguably better, since it doesn't damage the saw blade). Had the Bosch system stayed on the market, it almost certainly would have forced SawStop to lower their prices to be more competitive.
I think 100% there should be some exception to the patent law when it comes to health, public safety and the future of humanity. It should be possible for a international court to say that "your patent must end because of {some important reason}" and then a compensation should be calculated.
Let's take SawStop. If developing their ide have cost them 1 million USD, and they have made 50 million USD on the patent, then I do not think that a loss of patent makes them regret that they spent time inventing it in the first place.
I could be wrong about this but I believe that Mercedes-Benz did a similar thing with airbags. All vehicle manufacturers must now install airbags in vehicles that are sold as per legislation.(not sure about the developing world).
Great presentation ! I for one would rather have the safety of use and pay a little more than lose any physical parts !! Be safe !😎